[HN Gopher] An Open Source Multi-Player Starship Bridge Simulato...
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An Open Source Multi-Player Starship Bridge Simulator for Linux
Author : marcodiego
Score : 305 points
Date : 2021-08-29 03:52 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (smcameron.github.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (smcameron.github.io)
| smlacy wrote:
| How does this compare to Artemis?
| trynewideas wrote:
| It doesn't. If you want something closer to Artemis, try
| EmptyEpsilon.
| Kinrany wrote:
| Another game in this genre, but 2D is Lovers in a Dangerous
| Spacetime.
| chrischen wrote:
| I've always wanted to try Star Wars bridge simulator but haven't
| due to the high cost and mediocre reviews.
| treve wrote:
| You're probably talking about Star Trek, but I can confirm. Me
| and a few friends got this (some of which with VR) and it feels
| like a fantastic premise, but it's very linear and it has very
| little content. It feels more like a demo than a full game.
|
| Desperate for more in this genre we ended up playing a bunch of
| Pulsar: Lost Colony. It has a lot more depth (but can be a bit
| rough around the edges).
| chrischen wrote:
| I'd imagine Bridge simulation is pretty close to actual naval
| vessel operations. If something like this doesn't exist then
| someone should make a naval vessel simulator and adapt it.
| dividuum wrote:
| There's Carrier Command 2: https://store.steampowered.com/a
| pp/1489630/Carrier_Command_2
| AlexAndScripts wrote:
| I've been playing CC2 a lot. It's got a steep learning
| curve and some bugs but is brilliant with friends.
| sprkwd wrote:
| Wow. That must've one of the longest gaps between
| releases.
| mhh__ wrote:
| I think it's a fundamental limitation of video games. Unless
| you are playing against other people, you are never really
| _somewhere_ and I think that shatters the illusion. The same
| way that "holding" a gun in VR is really impressive, but the
| headset can't mimic the wind in your face or cool spray of
| the sea - these issues, I think, don't arise with 2D games
| because there are too far away from the uncanny valley.
|
| You and your friends in charge of a spaceship would probably
| feel like commanding a PBR in Vietnam, but I don't think a
| game can capture that Vibe (it's a cheap term but I genuinely
| think it fits).
|
| Pulsar looks cool though, will check it out.
| krisoft wrote:
| > I think it's a fundamental limitation of video games.
|
| I don't think so. Game design is a whole art form in
| itself. Some games suck at it and some games succeed. I
| haven't played with the linked game, but played with
| Artemis. That one sucked. The good part of it was being
| nerdy and role-playing out a fantasy with friends. The bad
| part was that after the first "battle" engagement we
| quickly learned that the enemy is very predictable and the
| game won't provide any challenges to us. Basically yelling
| "Aye captain, proton torpedo loaded" was fun, rolling up to
| the next sprite and demolishing it within seconds no matter
| what "tactic" we employ was not fun. Basically our mistakes
| didn't matter, and we just had to shoot down everyone who
| was moving about. There were no commercial traders,
| everyone comms contacted immediately opened fire on us.
| Furthermore there was nothing we were protecting other than
| our own skin. The game forced us to be amnesic murderhobos
| going nowhere, doing nothing of value.
|
| > You and your friends in charge of a spaceship would
| probably feel like commanding a PBR in Vietnam
|
| I never commanded a PBR in Vietnam, but I don't think you
| did either. Probably you have a feeling of what you think
| it means, maybe action? Daring charges? High speed chases?
| Maybe inspired by the plot of Apocalypse Now?
|
| In reality it was probably 95% boredom, batting mosquitos
| and flies away, trying to stay hydrated, and maintaining
| the bilge pump while doing routine boring work. Punctuated
| with 5% "damn, we are dead because we just got ambushed" or
| "damn they are dead because we got the jump on them".
|
| A realistic PBR simulator would suck. One written to follow
| the feeling or vibe you were thinking when you wrote that
| sentence? Now that would rock!
|
| Making a bridge simulator is really hard. You are not just
| balancing one experience but a different one for each crew
| member. In a real ship if engineering is bored out of their
| mind 99% of the time that's not a bad thing, in a game that
| means you just ruined the experience to one of the players.
| You have to keep all of your players busy, and occupied
| with meaningful choices, while not pushing them
| accidentally into task saturation. If you want to make it
| fun you have to treat each station as a separate game
| interacting with the others. Which is naturally harder than
| just making a single game.
| Nullabillity wrote:
| > In a real ship if engineering is bored out of their
| mind 99% of the time that's not a bad thing, in a game
| that means you just ruined the experience to one of the
| players.
|
| Sea of Thieves solves that pretty cleverly, by having
| fewer players than roles but letting people switch roles
| as required. There's no point having anyone man the
| cannons while you're not in combat.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > There's no point having anyone man the cannons while
| you're not in combat.
|
| Well, until you find yourself in combat and the cannons
| won't fire.
| noduerme wrote:
| >>> Basically yelling "Aye captain, proton torpedo
| loaded" was fun, rolling up to the next sprite and
| demolishing it within seconds
|
| Basically every battle sequence in the original Star
| Trek. It's why they had to invent Tribbles.
| mhh__ wrote:
| The feeling I was trying to capture was really a notion
| of "this is _my_ seat " rather than a sense of action. I
| had long periods of boredom in mind, when I wrote that,
| and I don't think the game can capture it. I picked a PBR
| because it came to mind, but really even a large RV would
| work, if you think about it.
|
| Maybe it can if you have a different brain to mine,
| that's entirely possible, but I just don't think it can
| work. I hit a point where the only thing I want is more
| detail, so you need a holodeck in effect.
| [deleted]
| chongli wrote:
| _these issues, I think, don 't arise with 2D games because
| there are too far away from the uncanny valley_
|
| Yeah. This is why I can spend hundreds of hours with a game
| like FTL: Faster Than Light. Its 2D and very simple pixel
| art give way to fantastic gameplay rife with difficult
| decisions and lasting consequences! It would be really cool
| to have the gameplay of FTL with immersive, high-end VR but
| I think such a game would never be made due to the risks of
| alienating the audience.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I think that the best bridge simulator we have is FTL.
| routerl wrote:
| Hey, check out Artemis. It's the exact same genre as Star
| Trek: Bridge Simulator, but takes the concept seriously.
|
| https://www.artemisspaceshipbridge.com/#/
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| For a somewhat more directed and engaging experience, I
| recommend Pulsar: Lost Colony (1). It actually just recently
| (two months ago) saw a 1.0 release after 8 years in early
| access (2). The best way I can describe the game is that it's a
| 5-player cooperative FTL-meets-Star-Trek-RPG.
|
| The dev team is pretty small, but from the perspective of
| having that "Star-trek like experience" they have actually done
| a pretty good job of really capturing it and making it engaging
| and fun. Up to 5 people can play cooperatively, but myself and
| two friends have sunk probably 30-50 hours into the game
| exploring and progressing (the AI controls the roles that you
| aren't able to fill). It's also got a pretty active community
| with games to jump into but it's kind of hard to find other
| people with equal skill level as you when you are just starting
| out.
|
| The gameplay is there, but it feels pretty unpolished in terms
| of bugs and graphical assets and it would really be something
| special if a AAA studio bought the game and added in some
| professional-grade assets because it's otherwise a really well-
| made experience.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PULSAR:_Lost_Colony
|
| [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-XbLEvhI_s
| ghoward wrote:
| I wonder if this could be set up at some kind of conference. I
| think that would be fun, especially to be the game master and
| throw the players for a loop. :D
| jon-wood wrote:
| I've seen Artemis run at a hacker camp before, complete with a
| tent full of touch screens, a big projector as the main
| display, and of course an overly large seat for the captain. It
| was great fun, highly recommend it if you get the chance.
| forgotpwd16 wrote:
| Seems fun!
|
| >for Linux
|
| Is there a reason that it cannot run on other Unix/Unix-like
| systems or even Windows?
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Because it wasn't developed for those platforms? The code
| itself will probably mostly be portable but there's tons of
| libraries that also need to be pulled in. Some programs were
| developed for Windows, some were developed for macOS, and this
| was developed for Linux, simple as that.
|
| Windows should be able to run it with WSL2 with some extra
| setup. If you can get all the other dependencies in place,
| macOS might also be able to run it, I don't know how compatible
| the macOS windowing system is with the Linux ones. Same goes
| for the *BSDs.
| pietromenna wrote:
| The long installation steps are a feature. Seems like the ideal
| foreplay.
| fgerling wrote:
| I created a little container image to help building snis:
| https://github.com/fgerling/snis-builder
|
| My goal is to build a linux iso image with snis preinstalled.
| barbs wrote:
| How does this compare with Empty Epsilon?
| https://daid.github.io/EmptyEpsilon/
| smoldesu wrote:
| This game appears to be more simulation-based, as opposed to
| EE's more arcade-y style.
| squarefoot wrote:
| This looks interesting for hacker/gamer spaces, probably also
| hacker themed pubs, but I wonder if it could be easily adapted to
| allow the crew to operate their stations remotely, that is, each
| one at their home. If remotely networked, it could be expanded to
| have more ships fighting against each other; the kind of game and
| related voice communications should suffer less from latency
| which usually plagues first person shooters etc.
| loa_in_ wrote:
| The author tells about it in this comment section
| agent327 wrote:
| "So how do I install this game?"
|
| "It's really simple! Here's a specific sequence of 21 shell
| commands that may or may not work, and is certainly incomplete,
| and you have to modify some of the source of course, we don't say
| how but don't worry it is really easy, oh and it won't work on
| these systems, just hack it until it works. Heh, of course you
| already have a compiler, why would we even mention it. Then do
| these 8 shell commands that we really hope will work. And then
| you get a text-mode menu in your shell, that's the game."
|
| Just in case anyone is wondering why it isn't the year of Linux
| on the desktop yet.
|
| If you don't see the problem here, you're part of it.
| senko wrote:
| > Space Nerds In Space was designed with hackerspaces in mind
| -- where else are you going to find enough people to run a
| linux-based multi-player LAN game spaceship simulator for Star
| Trek nerds but a hackerspace?
|
| Doesn't sound like it targets users who expect one-click
| installs.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > Here's a specific sequence of 21 shell commands
|
| Almost all of those are just "apt install" and could be easily
| done with no command line.
|
| Then there is "run this command or get this zip".
|
| Then you run the only mandatory command, "make".
|
| > that may or may not work
|
| It will work fine on ubuntu but the dependencies might have
| different names elsewhere.
|
| It's not great, but at the same time it's better than "Oh this
| only works on windows X."
|
| > and is certainly incomplete, and you have to modify some of
| the source of course, we don't say how but don't worry it is
| really easy, oh and it won't work on these systems, just hack
| it until it works.
|
| I don't see any of this?
| chucktingle wrote:
| So, one of my neighbors is a car enthusiast. Can you imagine me
| walking into his garage, looking at the car he's working on and
| starting to whine about why I'd need all his tools and special
| machines in order to get the same car? Who in his right mind
| wouldn't want to just sit in the car and turn the key?!
|
| That is why it isn't the year of the custom car yet. That
| person is clearly a part of the problem!
| willismichael wrote:
| I've been a Linux enthusiast for eighteen years. I started
| off trying to evangelize it to everybody. At some point I
| switched my opinion to not recommending it, while still using
| Linux on all of my home desktop/laptop machines.
|
| I have never quite been able to express why I insist on using
| Linux while at the same time I don't recommend it to other
| people until I read this comment.
| marcodiego wrote:
| I almost never recommend linux. People will have problems
| regardless of the OS, they will hardly find help to solve
| their problems if they are using linux. Then someone will
| arrive and blame linux for the problem and then, the user
| form now on will avoid and bad mouth it.
|
| These days I only recommend linux for people I know they
| can handle it AND will have some fun learning how to handle
| it. Or on the "gramma" computer case where usage scenario
| is very well defined.
|
| But I still find it fun that people get impressed about how
| it is possible to efficiently use the computer. For
| example, copying a file to/from a keychain and unmounting
| it with a single command and with just a few more touches
| on the keyboard I can open and start editing the file. For
| people who expect intrusive warnings when an usb drive is
| plugged in and lots of clicks to find and copy files, doing
| all that with a few keystrokes is impressive.
|
| Another trick I use to impress more seasoned users and even
| developers is the cycle of "apt-get build-dep", "apt-get
| source", configure, compile and run. People get so
| impressed that they consider start using linux.
|
| But yes, if you really like it, you'll find people for whom
| you can recommend it.
| [deleted]
| et1337 wrote:
| I met the developer of Artemis at an Ohio game developer meetup.
| Nice guy. The Ohio game dev scene is pretty cool.
| ntnsndr wrote:
| Just in case some additional decision-making functionality would
| be useful, we're working on a Lua mod for that.
| https://gitlab.com/medlabboulder/modpol
| jeroenhd wrote:
| This web page does a terrible job representing the necessary
| install steps. It looks super combined but can be combined into
| three or maybe four commands.
|
| I think it would be massively helpful if the devs would upload a
| DEB/Flatpak file somewhere instead of having compilation
| instructions as the primary install method. Sure, if you run a
| funky Linux like OpenSUSE you need to follow and convert
| installation instructions, but for Ubuntu (which the guide is
| targeting) you really don't anymore.
|
| That being said, on Arch (and Arch-derived) systems you can find
| this in the standard software store under the name snis-git if
| you've enabled the AUR.
| noduerme wrote:
| If I understand the point of it, having a militantly unfriendly
| install process would be a feature, not bug. A Kobayashi Maru
| if you will. In that sense they probably hit the right
| audience. Almost enough to make me try it. Problem is I can't
| justify nerding out on a spaceship ...even if I actually had to
| work to get there.
| jka wrote:
| Maybe worth sending a Request For Package[1] in Debian? (that
| process involves sending an email, or running 'reportbug' at
| the command-line if you have it installed). Most of the install
| steps would be rolled into the dependency list by the
| maintainer, I imagine (and many of them look like they're only
| required at compile-time).
|
| No guarantees on when it might appear as a package, of course,
| but it doesn't take long to ask (and hopefully not too long to
| implement, either).
|
| [1] - https://wiki.debian.org/RFP
| app4soft wrote:
| > _I think it would be massively helpful if the devs would
| upload a DEB /Flatpak_
|
| Providing _AppImage_ [0] would be enough for mostly all Linux
| users.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppImage
|
| [1] https://github.com/AppImage/AppImageKit/wiki/Similar-
| project...
| grae_QED wrote:
| >This web page does a terrible job representing the necessary
| install steps. It looks super combined but can be combined into
| three or maybe four commands. git clone <git-
| repository>; make; make update-assets
|
| It's literally three commands, assuming you have all the
| dependencies like I did, all of which is written clearly on the
| project page. Even if you don't have the dependencies, it's
| trivial to install them. I don't understand what's so terrible
| about it.
| smcameron wrote:
| Hi, author here. I'm a little hesitant to wade into these
| comments, but I'll try to answer a few questions I see popping
| up, and some that I just made up.
|
| 1. Why do I have to compile the thing myself?
|
| Because packaging on linux is a nightmare. For a long time, Linus
| Torvalds did not offer linux binaries for his "subsurface" diving
| program, but did offer them for Windows and Mac. Now there are
| linux subsurface packages, but Linus doesn't do them himself. If
| Linus can't be bothered to make linux binaries, you know the
| situation is messed up. I figure, if the game is good enough,
| then someone (besides me) will make packages. If that doesn't
| happen, well, I guess the game isn't good enough. And I'm ok with
| that.
|
| 2. Why don't the devs do this or that?
|
| "The devs" is mostly just me. I do what I feel like, this is my
| hobby project that I do for fun.
|
| 3. How does this compare to Artemis/Empty Epsilon etc.?
|
| It's more properly 3D than Artemis or Empty Epsilon. It has a
| much nicer Lua API for making mission scripts than Artemis's XML
| based system. It doesn't have as many mission scripts as Artemis
| or EE. It feels a little more "millenium falcon" than
| "Enterprise", mainly due to the turret gun, I suppose. I think
| the planets, especially the gas giants[1] in SNIS look cooler
| than anything in Artemis or EE.
|
| 4. Why does the game design suck?
|
| It's hard to make a cooperative bridge simulator that's fun at
| every station all the time. Back in 2012, I heard about Artemis,
| and thought it was a cool idea, and it seemed like a neat
| project, so I started working on my own interpretation of the
| genre. It's hard to know how things will turn out without just
| trying it. It came out the way it came out (so far). A lot of the
| fun in this type of game has to come from the participants. With
| the right participants with the right attitude, it can be pretty
| fun. Some parties are fun, some are dull. Alcohol sometimes
| helps.
|
| 5. Why doesn't it run on Windows or Mac?
|
| It used to run on Macs, but then support for OpenGL on Macs
| became problematic. Maybe someone could get it to run on Macs
| again, but not me. It will run on Windows using the Windows
| subsystem for linux, however, the graphics will be software
| emulated, which is generally not good enough. Trying to compile
| natively on Windows would be a big job. It uses pthreads
| extensively, and some other various linux-isms here and there.
| Windows and Mac were not a priority for me because I don't have
| either of those machines, and I was mainly interested in playing
| the thing with my friends. Besides, Windows and Mac already have
| enough games.
|
| 6. Can you run the game remotely, or does it have to be on a LAN?
|
| Maybe. I've never seriously tried to run it remotely. I have
| tried it once or twice, with the server running on a digital
| ocean server in New York, with my clients running in Virginia,
| and it worked better than I expected it to. It does have a voice
| chat feature built in (added after COVID appeared), and that
| seemed to work. But my test was limited to about 5 minutes of
| messing around, and only a couple of clients. Each client will
| require about 100k/s of bandwidth. This can be greatly reduced by
| reducing the number of objects (asteroids and NPC ships) floating
| around in the simulation, but I haven't really experimented much
| with running this thing other than on a LAN.
|
| 7. Will it work on a Raspberry Pi 4?
|
| Yes and no. Some stations will work. SCIENCE, COMMS, and
| ENGINEERING seem to work alright. More graphics intense stations
| don't work so well (MAIN SCREEN, NAVIGATION, WEAPONS,
| GAMEMASTER).
|
| [1] https://github.com/smcameron/gaseous-giganticus
| vkoskiv wrote:
| FWIW, OpenGL on macOS is deprecated, not removed. This means
| they ship an ancient version and won't provide support.
|
| I messed around for an hour or so, and managed to get it to
| compile fully on my older macOS 10.12 system. It seems to
| mostly work, but snis_client just throws up a black screen.
| Clicking on certain regions on the bottom left/right corners
| does emit a sound effect, so it _is_ running. Further
| investigation is in order! I 'll submit patches if I figure out
| some nice fixes, of course.
| grae_QED wrote:
| Thanks for sharing your project! I've been messing around with
| it for the past couple of hours and I gotta say, it's a lot of
| fun! I really enjoy the aesthetics of it too. You clearly put a
| lot of thought into it and it really shows. I'm excited to see
| where it goes. :)
|
| I was wondering, is there any interest in implementing a kind
| of single/two player mode? Something where, for example, you
| can operate the weapons systems while being able to do simple
| navigation durring a battle (essentially evasive maneuvers). I
| can see something like this being handy with limited players.
| Maybe this is already feature that I haven't discovered yet.
|
| Either way, it's really cool and I've been having fun with it!
| AkshatM wrote:
| > Because packaging on linux is a nightmare
|
| I don't like to be contrarian, but, for Debian-based distros
| specifically: it's not!
|
| Use `dpkg-deb` to create a `deb` file from your executable and
| upload for distribution. Generate different executables for
| different target architectures from your compiler toolchain,
| package them separately as different deb files, and share. It's
| a one-liner to do this.
| AkshatM wrote:
| For Debian-based distros, just use `dpkg-deb` to bundle your
| executables into a `deb` and distribute the `deb`. It takes one
| line to do this.
| smcameron wrote:
| If it's a one liner, send me a patch.
|
| BTW, there's a hell of a lot more to package up than just a
| few executables.
| smcameron wrote:
| Also, there's _already_ debian packaging stuff:
| https://github.com/smcameron/space-nerds-in-
| space/tree/maste...
|
| But I'm not really too interested in distributing packages
| that will just get out of date.
|
| "git pull; make" is easier anyway.
| edoceo wrote:
| Well, there went my weekend
| Gigachad wrote:
| It looks like there is more gameplay in getting the thing
| installed than the actual game.
| jalino23 wrote:
| haha
| aftbit wrote:
| It's really just:
|
| 1. apt-get install some deps 2. get the source 3. call make a
| few different ways 4. run the binary
|
| Really not that complicated. If you wanted to, you could make a
| flatpak, docker container, appimage, snap, deb, rpm, or
| whatever for your OS in a few minutes and save everyone else
| the install.
| criddell wrote:
| That's still kind of nuts when you compare it to how you
| install application on the other major desktop operating
| systems.
| 10000truths wrote:
| It's not the OS's fault that the developer's application is
| hard to run out-of-the-box. If the developer wanted to make
| it easy, he could just build a .deb, host it on his own PPA
| and ask people to install it with apt-get.
| perl4ever wrote:
| My idea of a simple intuitive process is ./configure; make;
| make install.
|
| Is that deprecated for some reason these days?
| datameta wrote:
| What a low effort way to put down someone's efforts. Is your
| issue with Linux? That's not up to the dev. Is your issue with
| the game? How about some constructive criticism?
| fhars wrote:
| As they say, "I love games, my favorite it the multiplayer text
| adventure called Unix."
| perl4ever wrote:
| I never liked vi or emacs, but when I learned the basics of
| vi, I was amazed how similar it is to nethack.
| xwdv wrote:
| I'm tired of these kind of space themed exploration games. Why
| not do some kind of exploration game where you get shrunk down to
| microscopic size and explore a human body and fix problems or
| deep sea exploration aboard a submarine?
| theelous3 wrote:
| Because space is fuckin rad
|
| Also, Subnautica. Also also, barotrauma. And piles of submarine
| combat games.
|
| I don't think people want to play human body repair games,
| typically. Putting existential woes on hold is usually a nice
| side effect of games.
| walshemj wrote:
| Interesting Roll20 and other TTRPG clients could do with a better
| support for Starship combat for Traveller Starfinder and the
| Expanse
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