[HN Gopher] EU agency advises against using search and browsing ...
___________________________________________________________________
EU agency advises against using search and browsing history for
credit scores
Author : imagine99
Score : 149 points
Date : 2021-08-28 13:17 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (therecord.media)
(TXT) w3m dump (therecord.media)
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| So, on the assumption that this might start happening before it
| gets outlawed: Anyone know what queries my bot should be plugging
| into search engines to game this particular system? Shouldn't be
| too hard to have a machine ask Google 3000 times a day "what to
| do when you're super rich and deserve unlimited credit", right?
| lmkg wrote:
| 20th-Century advice: "Dress for the job you want, not the job
| you have."
|
| 21st-Century advice: "Google for the problems you want, not the
| problems you have."
| prepend wrote:
| I did Google "how to invest $2 million" a few times from
| different devices to see how it would change my search history.
|
| It's hard to tell systematically but my YouTube ads became
| super douschey. And my iheartradio ads and Spotify ads were
| also related.
|
| Is there a site of funny search poisoning? Or a practical joke
| set of how many times you have to search "domestic abuse
| defense attorney" a friend's phone to surprise them?
| bobthepanda wrote:
| presumably, the people who seriously have $2M to invest are
| not just googling how to do it, so you may just be getting
| the set of ads for the people likely to actually put that in
| Google
|
| as far as practical jokes go, it would probably be a lot
| easier to sign up someone to an unsavory email list.
| prepend wrote:
| > unsavory email list.
|
| Of course that too. It's not exclusive with search
| poisoning.
|
| > $2million
|
| It seems that way in that it's either stupid advertisers
| that think rich people Google that. Or people thinking
| there's a mindset of get rich quick, crypto scams who
| Google that.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| > It's not exclusive with search poisoning.
|
| Not to say that it is, but email lists being sold around
| is table stakes for advertising and search, so that might
| be faster and easier than trying to change ad results via
| search queries.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| It might not be that focused; ~nobody with $2MM asks Google
| for investment advice, but "how to invest" and "how to
| invest _to make_ millions " are searches worth targeting
| (and would match that search).
| ljm wrote:
| Rumour has it that Jeff Bezos AltaVista'd how to make 180
| billion dollars before getting the idea to start Amazon.
| laurent92 wrote:
| What response did it give? Where does the anecdote come
| from?
| biren34 wrote:
| Back in high school (pre-internet), we'd sign up a
| particular friend every time we saw one of the information
| collection boxes for 24 hour fitness.
|
| He could never figure out why they just wouldn't stop
| calling him
| laurent92 wrote:
| > presumably, the people who seriously have $2M to invest
| are not just googling how to do it
|
| If I sell my startup in a few years, it would be worth
| 4-10m$, and I wonder what I might do with the money. I find
| it funny that you dismiss the idea of not knowing how to
| invest millions of dollars, but when you've worked all your
| life, you don't have time to build a network of people who
| can receive your investment, and you're not used to
| actually having this money outside of the startup vehicle.
| And given 86% of billionaires of this generation are first-
| generation, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same for
| millionaires. I keep hearing stories of:
|
| - Youtubers,
|
| - Startup founded,
|
| - Dropshipping, but not dropshippers, just people who sell
| services to gullible get-rich-quick dropshippers.
| himlion wrote:
| Crypto traders are an exception to this, they'll just
| keep it invested in crypto :)
| dheera wrote:
| Most people that have that problem don't Google "How to
| invest $X million", they google for things like "best
| clean energy stocks" or "best index funds" or "should i
| buy Ethereum or Bitcoin" or "bay area financial advisors"
| or "angel investing getting started" etc.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Yeah, I'm not saying that people who come into money are
| investing geniuses, but you will lose your money pretty
| quickly if you type in how much money you have into
| Google and click the first link promising a get even
| richer scheme.
| dorkwood wrote:
| If you get $10m aren't you, like, finished? You escaped
| the game. It's over. Why does investing matter anymore?
| fortran77 wrote:
| Taxes and inflation will kill you.
| dimnsionofsound wrote:
| So that your escape money doesn't get eaten away by
| inflation. You could put it in a low-ish risk portfolio
| composed of some bonds, indexes, etc so that it continues
| to make some amount of money.
| akomtu wrote:
| Asking how to invest 2M probably means the "investor" has
| won money in a lottery and can be lured into "investing"
| them back into a casino.
| bombadilo wrote:
| Do you have adblockers or did you turn them off for this
| experiment? I would assume most people on HN have adblockers
| and other browser ad ons to prevent the malicious tracking
| that so many companies are hell bent on using. It's an
| anomaly for me to see any ads on my devices.
| prepend wrote:
| I used chrome with no adblockers. I only use chrome for
| Google sites so I don't bother with adblockers.
| jobigoud wrote:
| There once was a website called ruinmysearchhistory.com that
| would open a new tab and launch many Google searches on
| unsavory terms.
|
| The original list of terms can still be found here: https://w
| ww.reddit.com/r/InternetIsBeautiful/comments/4nc763...
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Try Googling _mesothelioma symptoms_ if you want to see how
| deep this particular rabbit hole goes (and cost some
| ambulance-chasing law firms some money while you 're at it.)
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Other than the ethical concerns, that's why I wouldn't bother
| with searching the users search queries.
| edu wrote:
| A couple of years ago Mozilla built a tool to trick trackers
| into believing you have a certain profile (rich, among others).
|
| It worked by opening 100s of tabs but I don't remember if it
| issued any query to Google.
|
| The tool is Track This: https://trackthis.link/
| bserge wrote:
| It might be harder than it seems, Google is incredibly AIcist.
| I hit their threshold manually sometimes (it's like a dozen or
| so queries per minute) :D
| tpmx wrote:
| Those "we have detected unusual traffic" messages after
| unusually heavy (hey, we're not all average in our usage
| patterns) but very human usage are kinda evil. I wasted so
| much time wiping the machine and reinstalling the OS etc
| after getting paranoid that I had some undetectable kind of
| malware before I caught on.
| londons_explore wrote:
| It usually means you're behind carrier grade nat or some
| other shared IP and someone else is running a bot.
| tpmx wrote:
| I wasn't behind CGNAT. Had a dedicated public ipv4 ip. I
| was just using google a lot, sometimes.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Google does bot detection on a /24 basis. So you were
| still sharing with 253 other households most likely.
| tpmx wrote:
| That would be idiotic. I don't think Googlers are idiots.
| matsemann wrote:
| Nah, happens quite often when Google refuses to serve the
| results you're asking for (ignoring a keyword, using
| something it believes is a synonym but is actually not in
| this context etc.), and one therefore do many successive
| almost identical searches with small tweaks.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Yeah, I have seen that as well... Usually when I try to
| actually find something and start tuning my query. Don't
| know if when you start building complex queries does it
| just get heavy and they have some threshold after which it
| doesn't make money anymore for them. So they block you...
| crispyambulance wrote:
| Wait a second, the article suggests that a credit reporting
| agency could simply engage with google or other data brokers and
| obtain browsing history, NOT simply statistical target
| demographic roll-ups, but browsing data for actual specific named
| individuals.
|
| Is that really possible?
| White_Wolf wrote:
| For the majority of people it is doable if you start gathering
| enough data (from all sources you can) to link devices and
| browsers that one person owns. Not easy for the average person
| but with the size of some of these behemoths... 100% possible.
| asiachick wrote:
| From Google, No! Google does not share user data.
|
| From "other data brokers" maybe
| Tycho wrote:
| It just boggles the fucking mind. How are credit score companies
| even legal in the first place? Isn't the point of GDPR (and all
| the other data protection laws) to stop companies collecting your
| personal info and then sharing it with other parties against your
| own interests? Can I call up Experian and demand they delete my
| file? Please someone just class-action sue these guys into
| oblivion.
| oblak wrote:
| I have no agency to back my claims but yeah, I would also like to
| advise against using deeply personal stuff to determine anyone's
| effective social score.
|
| Oh, you eat too much, or the wrong things. Oh, but smoke, drink.
| Oh, you're exercising enough. Oh, you're exercising too much. Oh,
| you're just exercising the right amount.
|
| I've not even touched the browsing history yet. Surely the end
| goal here is not simply exploiting big data they have on
| everyone. Outrageous as that may be, that would also mean the
| very final end of any pretence of privacy online. Everything
| finally tied to our legal real personas. Ugh...
| hyperman1 wrote:
| I always tought a credit score was an American ism, maybe
| including UK and Ireland for the EU. Does anyone know if there
| exists something like credit scores in Belgium, and how you find
| out what yours is?
| the_third_wave wrote:
| In Sweden it is common for companies to check on income and
| payment records before accepting purchase orders. Income data
| is provided by the tax authorities while payment records are
| available through the enforcement agency (state bailiff,
| "Kronofogden"). If your income is deemed to be too low or you
| have a derelict payment on record (these records are in place
| for 3 years after the payment has been completed) you will be
| denied credit in which case you'll have to pay up-front.
| zinekeller wrote:
| But this is more like based on government data rather than, I
| know this is very American, private data shared by companies
| (and usually handled badly, whether in cybersecurity or
| identity correlation terms).
|
| Also, a credit checking association boasted that their
| members' data is 95% accurate - so that means that around 15
| million Americans do have devastating errors on their credit
| score (through no fault of their own).
| the_third_wave wrote:
| The data comes from governmental institutions but the
| actual checking is done by private companies like UC [1]
| and Ratsit [2].
|
| [1] https://www.uc.se/
|
| [2] https://www.ratsit.se/
| [deleted]
| Hamuko wrote:
| Finland only has a negative credit system (basically a record
| of payment delinquencies) but there are plans to introduce a
| positive credit system similar to the US.
| mimsee wrote:
| Would you happen to have a source or link to an article
| mentioning about this?
| AnssiH wrote:
| Current private negative registries:
|
| - https://www.asiakastieto.fi/web/en/about-us/about-credit-
| dat...
|
| - https://www.dnb.com/fi-fi/tuotteet/bisnode-risk-guardian/
| (Finnish only)
|
| Current legislation:
| https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2007/20070527
| (Finnish and Swedish only, Google translate of Swedish
| text: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=se&tl=en&u=
| https:/... )
|
| I'm not aware of a good English page describing the current
| system in detail, though. The Finnish pages of e.g. the
| Asiakastieto registry are more detailed.
|
| Planned positive public registry:
| https://www.vero.fi/en/positivecreditregister/
| heurisko wrote:
| In Germany, there is SCHUFA, which is a credit score.
|
| To rent in Germany, I had to have a SCHUFA check and a letter
| from my previous landlord saying I didn't have any outstanding
| debts, the "Mietschuldenfreiheitsbescheinigung."
| Sharlin wrote:
| Yeah, but "negative" credit score (ie. the only information
| they store is whether you have been a "bad" customer) is
| different from the US-style credit score system.
|
| > Mietschuldenfreiheitsbescheinigung
|
| Also, that must be the most German word ever.
| [deleted]
| bserge wrote:
| Germany is like a proto-US.
|
| Ignore the media spin, it's the most capitalist country in
| Europe, where unequal contracts rule supreme and you get
| fines and prison time for nearly anything.
|
| I'm surprised the socialist policies stuck around, although
| there's still time to get rid of them.
| throwaway210222 wrote:
| > where contracts rule supreme
|
| What, other than a contract that complies with the Basic
| Law for the Federal Republic of Germany, should be more
| supreme between two parties freely trading with each other?
|
| The weather report? A poem?
| bserge wrote:
| Somehow you replied before my edit. I meant unequal
| contracts, where one party has more power and the other
| is screwed if they, for whatever reason, cannot fulfill
| it.
|
| Which is to say, most contracts.
|
| The requirements and punishment for breach of contract
| are rather nutty even compared to the US.
| heurisko wrote:
| I don't get the media spin in the UK. I don't expect
| Germany to be anything other than capitalist, or as they
| say "ordoliberal", which is a market with strong state
| regulation.
|
| Considering their socialist policies started with Bismarck,
| I think they'll remain. But I think perhaps US-centric
| media somewhat over-eggs "socialist Europe".
| luckylion wrote:
| That's a weird take, meaningful fines are rare, except for
| parking/speeding tickets (because it's an easy way for
| cities to get cash), prison is very rare, you have to
| really go for the large crimes to not get probation. The
| one exception is coercive detention ("Beugehaft"), which
| they hand out instead of fines. It's a dumb concept, but
| it's also not that common.
|
| I also generally disagree that Germany is capitalist. Most
| markets are heavily regulated and full of subsidies, taxes
| are extremely high, and there's a fundamental mistrust of
| individualism.
| AnssiH wrote:
| Many (most?) EU countries have credit score systems and/or
| companies, and the details on how they work differ on a
| country-by-country basis:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_score#By_country
|
| In some countries credit score registries are restricted by law
| to only holding information on delinquent debt, so an average
| person has no entries in the credit score registries. This is
| the case here in Finland currently, though a national positive
| credit register is being planned for 2024
| (https://www.vero.fi/en/positivecreditregister/).
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| Certainly not most, given your own list. Remember there are
| 27 countries in the UE and UK isn't one of them.
| user5994461 wrote:
| You conclude that most EU countries have a credit score by
| linking to a Wikipedia article showing that almost none
| European country has a credit score?
| Throwaway197401 wrote:
| It's not like the US system. It's a negative credit score
| meaning that you start as a good lender and then you can
| only fuck it up by not paying your bills.
|
| In the US we have positive credit score meaning you have to
| show you are a good lender to get a better score.
|
| The european ones are mostly much less granular.
| AnssiH wrote:
| > You conclude that most EU countries have a credit score
| by linking to a Wikipedia article showing that almost none
| European country has a credit score?
|
| The Wikipedia article does _not_ show that almost no
| European country has a credit score or credit reporting
| system. It simply provides examples from various countries
| and is obviously not exhaustive, like most lists in
| Wikipedia.
|
| If you want to just see how many EU countries have any
| credit registries, these World Bank links have good data:
|
| - Public registries:
| https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.CRD.PUBL.ZS
|
| - Private registries:
| https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.CRD.PRVT.ZS
|
| They show most EU countries have such registries. I did go
| through a dozen countries manually before finding the above
| handy links, though...
|
| Of course one could argue whether or not those systems
| which only allow negative entries (and thus most people
| will have no data there) for a credit check should be
| considered credit _score_ systems.
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| Credit registry =/= credit score system. You are moving
| the goal post here. Your previous assertion is just
| false. the US system is brutal, unfair and shouldn't be
| reproduced anywhere else in the world at first place.
| hyperman1 wrote:
| I count 5 countries of the 27 eu countries in that list, and
| it seems half of them have a gov based system. So the
| situation seems different from the US.
|
| I always get orwellian vibes from the US system. Some random
| big brotherish corporation looks at you in any way it can,
| then runs some completely untransparant system to produce an
| unreliable number, with no appeal. That number determines
| your chances in life.
|
| Then again, my governement keeps track of how well I do on
| repaying my loans and tells that to lending orgs. I assume
| someone with a US style 'gubberment' thought process might
| recoil in horror even if I rather like it.
| Sharlin wrote:
| The craziest thing about the US system is that you _have_
| to use credit (and pay it back punctually) as opposed to
| debit just in order to convince future creditors that you
| 're a good customer. Migrants to the US can run into a
| Kafkaesque situation where they need a credit score to get
| a credit card, but they need a credit card to accumulate a
| credit score first...
| bluecalm wrote:
| It's especially crazy because in most of Europe I am
| pretty sure a mere possession of a credit card is
| correlated with being more likely to get into financial
| trouble.
|
| I never had a credit card. Among my friends who do well
| financially most don't have a credit card or just got it
| because their bank offered a crippled debit card that
| wasn't accepted at hotels and car rental. They never use
| the credit line. On the other have out of the financially
| irresponsible people I know most have multiple credit
| cards and use them as a credit line in regular basis.
| nathanlied wrote:
| Can confirm your experience. Although in my circles
| credit cards are more common due to kickbacks - big
| discounts at places you'd normally go to anyway, or
| straight up financial incentives. Everyone prefers debit
| however, and credit cards are definitely not the norm.
| hyperman1 wrote:
| Most people around here only have a credit card to deal
| with USA focused internet shops. I never used the credit
| possibilities of mine, felt worried when using it, and
| cancelled it when iDeal etc became more common on the
| net.
| dudul wrote:
| Does this really happen? I migrated to the US and had no
| problem getting a CC. The limit was low, just a few Ks at
| first, but it gave me a chance to start building credit
| record.
| Gene_Parmesan wrote:
| It certainly does, depending of course on where you
| migrated from. Someone from a first world country and who
| has established assets is going to be in an easier
| position than someone who doesn't. And unfortunately, in
| this country credit isn't really an option, everything
| from potential landlords to employers can use it against
| you.
| schrectacular wrote:
| Credit Unions usually offer secured credit cards as an
| onramp. Put $500 in a special savings account, get a
| credit card with a $400 line.
| pessimizer wrote:
| They'll also let you get a secured loan for something you
| were planning to pay for in cash (e.g. a car), but
| instead you dump that cash into an account which
| automatically pays down the loan balance every month. I
| did it. The interest rate for the loan was a fraction of
| a percent higher than the interest on the account.
|
| It's monumentally stupid, though, and says nothing about
| my ability to pay off future debt.
| Joeri wrote:
| Specifically for Belgium there is the CKP, which keeps track of
| all loans, including how timely they are paid, and which credit
| providers have to consult before granting any loan or line of
| credit.
|
| https://www.nbb.be/nl/kredietcentrales/centrale-voor-krediet...
|
| They also keep a black list of people who should be denied
| credit.
| kome wrote:
| so, in Belgium there is no creepy credit score, but a public
| registry.
|
| That's a more intelligent solution to the problem, like in
| the rest of Europe.
| xen0 wrote:
| Funnily enough, despite the advertising, there really is no
| such thing as a Credit 'Score' in the UK.
|
| Lenders get information about you from a Credit Reference
| Agency and will have their own internal systems to make
| decisions based on that. You can ask the reference agency for a
| copy of your credit report.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| If you want to get the average suburban Republican to lose their
| shit, all you have to do is tell them that what they do in
| private will affect them in real life. Imagine trying to explain
| to your wife that, when she takes care of all the household bills
| expenses, that your credit score never budges above 700 because
| of the weird late-night things you do when nobody's watching.
| WA wrote:
| I don't get it: How do credit scoring companies in the EU even
| get access to browsing data or my search history?
|
| Wasn't the GDPR introduced to prevent data sharing like this in
| the first place if I don't explicitly opt-in to this particular
| use case, like, as a separate toggle and not "by using our
| service you agree to our privacy policy".
|
| I'm confused.
| sfvisser wrote:
| If you read the linked article by the IMF you start to get it,
| bunch of ECB economists exploring innovation in financial
| products and writing a meaningless blogpost about it. Bunch of
| buzzwords, nothing interesting.
|
| In their defense, they write: "Fintech resolves the dilemma by
| tapping various nonfinancial data: the type of browser and
| hardware used to access the internet, the history of online
| searches and purchases."
|
| So it seems they're not recommending this usage of data persee,
| but just say fintech is already doing this.
| swiley wrote:
| That's not innovation.
| thepangolino wrote:
| Some members of the European Parliament have probably been
| lobbied to implement something like that and asked for an
| opinion of their in house experts on the matter.
| kome wrote:
| This Italian startups does exactly this kind of Orwellian credit
| scoring - like checking what browser, email provider and how old
| your computer is: https://www.fido.id/
| Goety wrote:
| 'advises against'
|
| well a bit too late for that
| swiley wrote:
| Everyone is going to start using TOR and similar for everything.
| Quillbert182 wrote:
| Yay, TOR speed increase.
| rob_c wrote:
| Slightly concerning how far the overton window has shifted in the
| last few years...
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| The only way to realistically enforce this is through software
| developers refusing to implement, like that's gonna happen, or by
| whistleblowers, but by then, it is already too late.
| izacus wrote:
| Really? Because the obvious way to "realistically enforce" this
| is by passing legislation banning such practices and demanding
| transparency in credit score calculations. And then massively
| fining credit companies which use those factors in calculation.
|
| Not sure how the heck would a single developer refuse to
| implement a system that earns boatload of money.
| rob_c wrote:
| I'm now expecting someone to claim they accidentally left the
| Chinese tools on for their EU accounts and only noticed when
| those with an interest in "squares" got hit with higher loan
| rates.
| manachar wrote:
| Exactly. Regulation is the primary method necessary to ensure
| that the market doesn't do an unethical but profitable thing.
|
| The other approach, which is employed by other specialties,
| is to have a professional trade accreditation group create
| certain standards that must be upheld by all people in that
| group. Doctors and lawyers are examples of how this works,
| and in what ways it fails too.
| imtringued wrote:
| Yeah you can't touch the powerful entities, let the small guys
| do it and pretend it's enough.
| dilippkumar wrote:
| I wonder if we are looking at the motivation for such a scheme
| backwards.
|
| The 2008 Banking disaster happened because banks were happy to
| give out tons of loans to people who couldn't pay them back. The
| response was to tighten various parameters that should have made
| it harder for banks to give out bad loans.
|
| I wonder if this is a way to break out of those handcuffs and
| allow banks to go back to giving out _more_ loans. "Yeah this
| person has a terrible credit score, but look at their browsing
| history. They are looking at healthy diets, they are comparing
| prices and shopping cheap - all signs of a responsible adult. Why
| should we deny this upstanding member of the society access to
| credit and help them become homeowners?"
|
| Update: Thinking about it some more, looking at browsing history
| is a fantastic way to identify vulnerable members of the society
| who can be talked into signing themselves up for new loans.
| History shows that bankers have loved to do this.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| > "Yeah this person has a terrible credit score, but look at
| their browsing history. They are looking at healthy diets, they
| are comparing prices and shopping cheap - all signs of a
| responsible adult. Why should we deny this upstanding member of
| the society access to credit and help them become homeowners?"
|
| Oh god, that could be my browsing history but it's not me nor
| what I do and they would be in for a rude awakening.
| mnd999 wrote:
| This is pretty obviously a bad idea. Credit agencies already have
| all the relevant information, whether you take out loans or
| credit cards and whether you pay them on time.
|
| Anything else is at best correlation, which as we know is not the
| same as causation.
| Sharlin wrote:
| Having a "credit score" is not common in the EU in the first
| place, and even rarer is using credit just in order to prove
| that you're a good customer.
| n_ary wrote:
| Not sure about EU but Germany has SCHUFA scores, which hold
| equal power and works similarly.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| The EU doesn't have a common credit score system because it
| doesn't have a common consumer banking system.
|
| Some countries have individual systems, but others don't.
| 6510 wrote:
| You can get a bad score over truly stupid incidents. There is
| clearly a market.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Correlation is plenty if your goal is to be right most of the
| time and have the loans you sell be slightly more profitable
| than a competitor.
|
| People forget that all these big data schemes are rather
| inaccurate at the individual user level, and that doesn't
| matter to the companies that use the data.
| HALtheWise wrote:
| Unfortunately, while that may be enough data for you as a
| (presumably) relatively affluent position, there are a _lot_ of
| people who aren't able to get loans today because they don't
| have that sort of history. For the subset of those people who
| would in fact be able to pay back loans, they have a ton to
| gain from improvements in credit score accuracy.
|
| I had a friend at a startup trying to close some of that gap by
| reporting one-time rent payments to credit agencies, and the
| sheer scale of benefits they were trying to bring their users
| is hard to overstate.
|
| I guess my point here is that there are in fact large portions
| of the population that are not well served by credit scores
| today, and just because you are not among them doesn't mean
| they don't exist.
| Gene_Parmesan wrote:
| Okay, but search and browsing history is not a good way to
| extend this data for these populations.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Start a company that searches for you:
|
| "How to pay my bills on time"
|
| "How to save more money for retirement"
| skeletal88 wrote:
| Where I am from in Europe, in Estonia, we havr a negative credit
| score system and when you want to get a big loan then you have to
| give the bsnk your account transactions from the last 6 months so
| they can see what you are spending on. Casinos and such are
| frowned upon. But nobody uses Credit cards. There are talks about
| creating a positive credit registry also, but it is for the short
| term lenders who should be able to see that you took out a loan
| yesterday and then they should not give you one today
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| Sounds easily gamed. Can't you just use cash at the casino?
|
| I suppose I'm assuming rational actors though - downrating
| people for having casino payments on their card might still
| make statistical sense.
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