[HN Gopher] PureOS - a pure Linux phone experience
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       PureOS - a pure Linux phone experience
        
       Author : TimTheTinker
       Score  : 113 points
       Date   : 2021-08-26 17:41 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (puri.sm)
 (TXT) w3m dump (puri.sm)
        
       | istingray wrote:
       | Super curious about Librem 5 myself, though they're currently
       | backordered and I'm a Linux newbie. If someone has one gathering
       | dust, email is in my profile.
       | 
       | My first step to switching off Apple is my laptop. I bought a
       | System76 laptop. I also considered the Purism laptop. I'm a Linux
       | newbie and went with System76, some explanation below. (Shipping
       | times were also a factor in my decision)
       | 
       | Purism's challenge is they may be trying to solve a "2-miracles
       | problem".
       | 
       | Miracle 1: open source hardware business
       | 
       | Miracle 2: privacy focused business
       | 
       | To the extent open source hw/sw SUPPORTS privacy, they're in
       | alignment as a single miracle. But the alignment isn't perfect,
       | it's all still so new. To put it another way, if Purism fails
       | that doesn't affect System76 much. But if System76 fails that
       | likely means a rough road ahead for Purism.
       | 
       | Those who can at all muster the courage and budget to buy Purism
       | right now totally should. Lead the way where others cannot.
        
         | TylerLives wrote:
         | How are Purism and System76 related?
        
           | relax88 wrote:
           | They both provide a means of running a user-first and
           | privacy-first operating system on a laptop without supporting
           | surveillance capitalists.
           | 
           | You can't really buy a Dell or a MacBook, install Debian or
           | some other *nix OS and make the same claim.
        
             | TylerLives wrote:
             | What I meant was: Why would System76 failing affect Purism
             | (negatively)? I understand that there's some correlation as
             | they're both targeting a similar audience, but it doesn't
             | seem to me like they depend too much on one another.
        
               | istingray wrote:
               | Appreciate the clarification. I didn't know about the
               | bootwork example, I meant reliant more generally.
               | 
               | System76 is one of the few Linux-first hardware
               | companies. Dell and Lenovo do this but as an aside.
               | System76 is 100% Linux.
               | 
               | If there were an entire ecosystem of Linux-first open
               | hardware developers, Purism could simply provide a few
               | hardware and software tweaks (ie hw switches for wifi)
               | for enhanced privacy.
               | 
               | The problem is Purism is forced to bear the weight of
               | being one of the few open hw/sw vendors AND all the
               | additional anti-surveillance pieces too.
               | 
               | Curious if this explanation helped you.
        
               | TylerLives wrote:
               | It did. Thanks.
        
               | pxc wrote:
               | Purism is downstream to some of System76's coreboot work
               | iirc
        
             | vorpalhex wrote:
             | You can buy a Dell with Ubuntu already installed...
        
               | istingray wrote:
               | There is one Dell laptop you can buy with Ubuntu: Dell
               | XPS 13 Developer Edition [1]
               | 
               | Linux is a side project for Dell at best.
               | 
               | [1] https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-
               | and-notebo... edit to add dell link
        
               | kashura wrote:
               | I don't even see that XPS available on dell.com anymore.
        
               | istingray wrote:
               | Search engines also seem to have trouble finding it. It
               | turns up only when I enter "dell xps 13 developer
               | edition": https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-
               | laptops-and-notebo...
        
               | contingencies wrote:
               | No longer available and was only ever limited
               | distribution AFAIK. Also, their hardware has a habit of
               | dying suddenly. For non-free vendors I recommend
               | replacing Windows on current-era Lenovo laptop hardware,
               | AFAIK so far everything just works out of the box.
        
             | fsflover wrote:
             | The difference is, most of System76's laptops are barebones
             | models from Clevo, whereas Purism designs its own laptops.
        
               | istingray wrote:
               | As a new System76 customer, I like their stepwise
               | approach. It tells me they're thinking long term and not
               | rushing. That's what I want to support is a longterm open
               | hardware+software industry.
               | 
               | My understanding is they've started selling their own
               | desktop models after selling white-labeled machines in
               | the past. And that with laptops they are quite involved
               | in the design process and are inching towards selling
               | their own custom laptops.
               | 
               | If Purism fails it will likely be because they did too
               | much from scratch. Taking on hardware and software all at
               | once is a recipe for disaster. It's super expensive.
        
               | 3r8Oltr0ziouVDM wrote:
               | Keep in mind that both Purism and System76 still use
               | proprietary CPUs (at least) so their machines are not
               | completely open. There is a backdoor in every Intel and
               | AMD chip that has full control over your computer. If you
               | want 100% open hardware, there is
               | https://www.raptorcs.com/.
        
               | istingray wrote:
               | Good to know about this, had not heard of Raptor
               | Computing Systems.
               | 
               | The complete open hardware model seems to require DIY
               | chip fabrication at some level as a backstop. Will look
               | for more opportunities to encourage this.
               | 
               | I wonder if System76 has considered Raptor processors for
               | their desktops. What is their roadmap towards more open
               | hardware? Here goes my first recommendation to their
               | customer support. I would consider a mini-desktop with
               | Talos by System76 even though I'm primarily a laptop
               | user.
        
               | relax88 wrote:
               | Intel ME is apparently disabled and not connected to the
               | network interface in the Librem 13/15 if I remember
               | correctly.
        
               | fsflover wrote:
               | Disabled and neutralized [0], but there are still some
               | blobs in it [1].
               | 
               | [0] https://puri.sm/projects/coreboot/
               | 
               | [1] https://puri.sm/learn/software-freedom-in-
               | perspective/
        
               | Klonoar wrote:
               | I believe both these companies go to lengths to disable
               | Intel ME & co (where possible). Raptor is a cool option
               | if you have the money and want a desktop approach, but if
               | you're after a laptop you're ultimately playing the game
               | of "how much can I deal with binary blobs and proprietary
               | bits".
               | 
               | Hell, for Purism's laptops it's not uncommon for people
               | to shove in a different wifi card to get modern speeds -
               | the card they use is used for being able to run with only
               | open source drivers, which are old at this point.
        
               | relax88 wrote:
               | Yes... the wireless card on the Librem 15 has given me
               | some grief due to sticky roaming. I'll have to look into
               | this!
        
               | fsflover wrote:
               | More details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Managem
               | ent_Engine#Commer....
        
         | nonplus wrote:
         | Of the two people I know who ordered one, 0 have been
         | delivered.
         | 
         | I'm well into worried this is another eve laptop / failed to
         | deliver a real product situation.
         | 
         | So even if they are not sold out, Purism is not getting any
         | money from me until I hear of delivered products to people I
         | know.
        
           | LukeShu wrote:
           | I am still waiting on my Librem 5 phone (since April 2020).
           | However, I've had my Librem 15 laptop (same order date) since
           | June 2020. They are an actual existing company that has
           | shipped a lot of real actual laptops to people. It sucks that
           | they're taking so long to deliver the Librem 5 phone.
        
             | nonplus wrote:
             | That's good to hear, I don't know anyone who ordered the
             | laptop so it's something to hear people online are
             | receiving their products.
        
           | kop316 wrote:
           | Mines being shipped now, it should arrive early next week!
           | 
           | ...though I guess I am not someone you know.
        
             | nonplus wrote:
             | Good to hear I hope it arrives soon! One of the people I
             | know ordered later, and one backed it very early and is
             | still waiting.
        
           | pengaru wrote:
           | My friend received his, so it's not exactly pure vaporware.
           | 
           | But it's also not usable enough to be his daily driver either
           | AIUI.
        
             | 29083011397778 wrote:
             | I have fairly minimal needs, mostly basic mapping, calls, a
             | Matrix client, and a web browser. I know that's pretty
             | basic, even for ~2011.
             | 
             | That said, I'm using (and have _been_ using) my Community
             | Edition Pinephone as a daily driver for a couple weeks now.
             | It 's not impossible, it just varies based on what ones
             | individual needs actually are :)
        
         | jstanley wrote:
         | "Backordered" is something of an understatement. I placed my
         | order in February 2018 and still haven't received it.
        
           | istingray wrote:
           | Oh wow! I had no idea. That's wild. Check out System76 for
           | other Linux-first options.
        
           | relax88 wrote:
           | Yeah I had no issues with shipping my Librem 15 laptop, it
           | was only a few weeks. The phone however I opted for the
           | Evergreen release of the Librem 5 hoping to get something a
           | little more polished. I've been waiting since summer 2019. It
           | seems they've been having issues with manufacturing, possibly
           | due to small order sizes plus semiconductor shortages plus
           | COVID.
           | 
           | I think the reason system76 has less issues is that it isn't
           | custom silicon. I'm not sure about Pine but perhaps it's the
           | same case?
           | 
           | The Librem 15 is a decent laptop and is very serviceable /
           | easy to repair but for the price it's definitely not as good
           | as the build quality of a Dell XPS for example.
           | 
           | I really like the idea of a quality open source phone
           | (hardware and software) that isn't sold by surveillance
           | capitalists, which is why I support them but I still don't
           | know if I'll use it as a daily driver.
        
         | freedomben wrote:
         | Congrats on the System76 laptop! I'm excited for you. My advice
         | would be to keep Pop OS in place at least until you're feeling
         | confident. It's a good distro that you can use forever, but
         | part of the fun of being a Linux user is freedom to explore and
         | try things.
         | 
         | Do you have a community/destination to go for help if/when you
         | need it? I would imagine you shouldn't need much unless you
         | like to leave the beaten path, but it's always good to have
         | some idea.
        
           | istingray wrote:
           | Appreciate the encouragement! I'm planning to pipe all
           | feedback and expectations to System76 directly. I know what I
           | bought likely isn't as good as my Mac from a look and feel
           | standpoint. The Linux community seems incredible, and I'm
           | looking for opportunities to pay money to do my part to push
           | it.
        
             | mdp2021 wrote:
             | > _but part of the fun of being a Linux user is freedom to
             | explore and try things_ [from poster freedomben]
             | 
             | Make yourself a few virtual machines for that, initially...
             | 
             | Then try loading systems on the laptop from a USB Mass
             | Storage Device (meaning, the non destructive way, without
             | writing to the disk).
        
             | Klonoar wrote:
             | > I know what I bought likely isn't as good as my Mac.
             | 
             | It's probably moreso the hardware that will bug you, not
             | the software - Linux on System76 machines is probably the
             | closest to "it actually just works" that I've seen and it's
             | super cool, but at the end of the day it's still rebranded
             | Clevo shells.
             | 
             | I like their desktop towers and I remain hopeful they can
             | do their own laptop one day.
        
               | istingray wrote:
               | Appreciate the advice on this. Wonder if there's any
               | hardware extras I can purchase that will ease the pain.
               | Skins, adapters, dongles etc.
        
             | gtf21 wrote:
             | I switched to System76 last year from being on a mac for
             | about 15 years. I knew that there would be some things
             | which would be lower quality (speakers, webcam, mic,
             | trackpad, screen) but found a couple of things:
             | 
             | 1/ my machine is way faster and lasts way longer; 2/ I have
             | had really great support from System76 (esp. compared to
             | Apple -- they helped me debug a hardware problem and then I
             | just ordered a new card and popped it in myself); 3/ I
             | actually don't mind the quality degradation compared to the
             | massive improvement in my day-to-day experience.
             | 
             | I'm an Arch user (/fanatic -- aren't we all?), YMMV.
        
             | zwayhowder wrote:
             | I highly recommend you adjust your perspective. Look for
             | the positives not the negatives.
             | 
             | Isn't as easy to use as your Mac for some things, sure, but
             | to start out thinking it isn't as good means you'll look
             | for the things that are flawed instead of noticing the
             | things that are amazing.
             | 
             | I've used Linux as a daily driver since 2016, yes there are
             | things that would be easier if I just owned a Mac -
             | somewhat ironically that includes Microsoft Office - but
             | there are many things that are just amazing on Linux.
             | 
             | The ability to pipe audio from one program into another, or
             | quickly create a virtual audio device that combines two get
             | a lot of use from me on the unending stream of video calls.
             | 
             | The fact my home directory contains all my configs in plain
             | test making it easy for me to have the same custom setup
             | across 3 different computers (and all nicely versioned in
             | git).
             | 
             | How about the fact that while I love a keyboard centric
             | tiling window manager (i3wm) when my wife or son log in
             | they get a KDE or Gnome desktop that is as familiar to them
             | as their existing Window's computers.
        
               | istingray wrote:
               | Good framing! I'll look for what's better not what's
               | missing: - I love that the laptop is user upgradable for
               | RAM and drives. - I love that I'm supporting a positive
               | open hardware/software future
               | 
               | edit: just realized I can play Steam games natively! And
               | also have a built in SD card slot.
        
               | zwayhowder wrote:
               | Also have a look at the unixporn subreddit. You'll find a
               | lot of inspiration for beautiful and functional desktops
               | that will consume all your time if you're not careful.
               | But in a fun way.
        
       | mark_l_watson wrote:
       | I have a few questions, stuff I couldn't find out about on the
       | web site. Does the USB-C port drive an external monitor
       | supporting a Linux desktop? Will people buy the "all USA parts"
       | version, given that it is more than twice as expensive?
       | 
       | Anyway, a great project.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | > Does the USB-C port drive an external monitor supporting a
         | Linux desktop
         | 
         | Yes, they call it "convergence": https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-
         | desktop-convergence/.
         | 
         | > Will people buy the "all USA parts" version, given that it is
         | more than twice as expensive?
         | 
         | Some people reported receiving their Librem 5 USA, so probably
         | yes. See also: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-
         | wiki/-/wikis/Freque....
        
           | mark_l_watson wrote:
           | Thanks!, the mobile/desktop/convergence is what I was
           | thinking of. The linked article says that it is still under
           | development, but in the future that is what I am looking
           | forward to: a powerful pocket device that can plug into a
           | monitor/keyboard/mouse in my study, into a whole wall display
           | in our living room, and public I/O devices in libraries,
           | offices, malls, friends' homes, etc. One can dream, right?
           | 
           | There is another great alternative for the longer term
           | future: compute would be everywhere as well as public I/O
           | devices for user interaction. Wherever you are, you could be
           | recognized and your personal environment would be right
           | there.
           | 
           | Pardon me for going far-afield here, but I am a fan of
           | Gibson's cyberpunk sci-fi future, and I enjoy imagining what
           | the combination of tech/society/governance/etc. will be.
        
             | fsflover wrote:
             | > The linked article says that it is still under
             | development, but in the future that is what I am looking
             | forward to: a powerful pocket device that can plug into a
             | monitor/keyboard/mouse in my study, into a whole wall
             | display in our living room, and public I/O devices in
             | libraries, offices, malls, friends' homes, etc. One can
             | dream, right?
             | 
             | Well, according to many articles [0] and videos, this is
             | practically a reality already. Also confirmed by people not
             | affiliated with Purism [1].
             | 
             | [0] https://puri.sm/posts/my-first-week-of-
             | librem-5-convergence/
             | 
             | [1] https://social.librem.one/tags/convergence.
        
       | LeoPanthera wrote:
       | From the page:
       | 
       | > It is the only smartphone on the market today to ship with a
       | fully-free and auditable operating system, from the ground up,
       | that is created in your best interest instead of corporations'
       | bottom lines. It is the only project with a bona fide community
       | instead of a "Big Corp" governance model.
       | 
       | Was this written before the PinePhone or does the PinePhone not
       | count somehow?
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | Pinephone requires two binary blobs for the WiFi/Bluetooth in
         | Linux kernel, and cannot run FSF-endorsed distros without
         | adding those blobs. Concerning the community, you might be
         | right, although Librem 5 was probably first here (announced in
         | 2017).
        
           | Arnavion wrote:
           | >Pinephone requires two binary blobs for the WiFi/Bluetooth
           | [...]
           | 
           |  _One_ binary blob for the WiFi /Bluetooth. The other binary
           | blob is for the modem, for which an alternative OSS firmware
           | has been in development for some time. There's also a third
           | blob for the camera autofocus firmware.
           | 
           | >[...] in Linux kernel, [...]
           | 
           | All three blobs are firmware, not drivers. There are no blobs
           | in the kernel. It's identical to the Librem 5 in this regard;
           | the Librem 5 also has firmware blobs for WiFi/Bluetooth,
           | modem, and some others, but no blob drivers.
           | 
           | >[...] and cannot run FSF-endorsed distros without adding
           | those blobs.
           | 
           | You can disable the WiFi/Bluetooth, modem, and camera with
           | hardware switches. Given that, and that the RYF criteria
           | allows firmware blobs for auxiliary chips, I'm not sure why
           | it would apply differently to the Librem 5 vs the PinePhone.
        
             | fsflover wrote:
             | > All three blobs are firmware, not drivers. There are no
             | blobs in the kernel.
             | 
             | Blobs means proprietary pieces of software. Firmware is
             | software, too, it just runs not on the main CPU. If it
             | resides in the OS, then the OS has "binary blobs",
             | according to the definition by FSF. Librem 5 also has
             | blobs, but they are not in the OS. They reside in the WiFi
             | card and in the modem, both of which are replaceable pieces
             | of hardware, not really parts of the the phone itself.
        
         | tjader wrote:
         | Also, does it count as being on the market when you haven't
         | delivered devices "pre-ordered" over 2 years ago?
        
       | zulu314 wrote:
       | Back in March I was super excited to order the "shipping in June"
       | librem 14 laptop. Contacted support, was told august 1st, no
       | news.
       | 
       | I would stay clear of this company. They might have good
       | intentions but clearly they suck at supply chain.
        
         | squarefoot wrote:
         | I was looking for a certain GX-412TC based firewall mainboard a
         | few days ago, so different hardware and different vendor: the
         | delivery time was over 200 days.
         | 
         | It's not their fault, it's like that pretty much everywhere.
         | Just try to buy a graphics card at 2019 prices; no way.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | Everyone "sucks at supply chain" today, even Apple [0] and
         | Toyota [1].
         | 
         | [0] https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/04/28/apple-warns-of-
         | ip...
         | 
         | [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58266794
         | 
         | By the way, many customers reported that they received their
         | laptops on forums.
        
         | kgwxd wrote:
         | We can't get anything electronic in a reasonable amount of time
         | at a reasonable price right now, surely we could cut a major
         | underdog a little slack.
        
         | InitialLastName wrote:
         | The world sucks at supply chain right now.
         | 
         | Even with the best intentions and planning, lead times have
         | been expanding faster than orders come in. Orders are being
         | pushed back and cancelled by vendors, and parts are
         | disappearing from distributors _very_ quickly.
         | 
         | Even the huge players shipping millions of units (Apple [0],
         | Toyota [1], Sony [2], Samsung [3]), who are usually able to
         | order the manufacturers around (in what's really a "bank owns
         | you" vs "you own the bank" situation), are having trouble
         | building products. Why would you expect a low-volume
         | manufacturer to be in any way capable of doing better?
         | 
         | [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/27/apples-iphone-hot-streak-
         | wil...
         | 
         | [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58266794
         | 
         | [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-15/sony-
         | is-s...
         | 
         | [3]
         | https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-17/samsung-w...
        
           | zulu314 wrote:
           | Understood but you could expect a customer support to be
           | candid about it.
           | 
           | They brushed me off with unpleasant tone + fake promises.
        
           | gunapologist99 wrote:
           | Pine Phone (also a pure Linux phone experience) is delivering
           | phones within three to four weeks. Purism has no excuse.
        
             | fsflover wrote:
             | See here why they do have an excuse:
             | https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-
             | wiki/-/wikis/Freque....
        
               | gunapologist99 wrote:
               | "Purism could have avoided these delays by following the
               | same model used by the PINE64 in designing the Pinephone
               | by only using older components that already have good
               | Linux support and launching with an existing mobile
               | interface. If Purism had used the i.MX 6, the hardware
               | would have been antiquated, but it could have avoided
               | most of the problems it has encountered implementing the
               | LCD screen, video out, cameras and power management. If
               | Purism had used the i.MX 6 and Ubuntu Touch, it probably
               | could have shipped in 2019, and avoided most of the
               | delays, which have generated so much public criticism,
               | but those would not have been good choices for the long-
               | term future of the phone."
        
               | Arnavion wrote:
               | Note that "these delays" is referring to the time taken
               | to develop the software for their choice of components,
               | not sourcing the hardware of those components. The
               | PinePhone doesn't have this problem not because of its
               | choice of older components, but because Pine64 doesn't do
               | any software and lets the community work it out, which it
               | has.
               | 
               | That said, the problem of components shortage is real,
               | which is why the PP's Beta Edition ships with identical
               | hardware to the previous Community Edition but for
               | needing to use a different, worse, magnetometer. ("Worse"
               | because it has no driver in the mainline kernel yet so it
               | can't be used.)
        
       | TimTheTinker wrote:
       | Is PureOS compatible with any other phone besides Librem?
        
         | ryukafalz wrote:
         | Not itself, no - but Mobian is compatible with other similarly
         | open phones (so basically the PinePhone and a few others) and
         | runs essentially the same software: https://mobian-project.org/
         | 
         | For other Android phones there's Droidian which is downstream
         | of Mobian; I've not used it myself though so can't speak to its
         | current state: https://droidian.org/
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | Only smartphones which provide good, open documentation and
         | specs can run alternative OSes. Pinephone is the only such
         | smarptphone apart from Librem 5, and it can run PureOS:
         | https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=9361.
        
           | thereddaikon wrote:
           | And while I've yet to see anyone with a librem 5 other than
           | journalists and youtubers my pinephone arrived last year when
           | they said it would. It ain't perfect but its a real product.
        
             | fsflover wrote:
             | Yes, they definitely have problems with the phone's supply
             | chain: https://puri.sm/posts/the-ball-and-supply-chain/.
        
         | seba_dos1 wrote:
         | The only phone officially supported by PureOS is Librem 5.
         | There were also people adapting it to PinePhone unofficially.
        
       | kop316 wrote:
       | Something that I would offer that, though Purism does advertise,
       | I do wish they would hit it home more, they give a lot to the
       | FOSS community. No really, they give back A LOT.
       | 
       | - Phosh, their phone shell, it being worked into upstream GNOME,
       | and libhandy, which they started, is in upstream gtk4. GNOME
       | Calls used to be a Purism app, now it is a GNOME app being
       | maintained primarily by Purism.
       | 
       | - Several of their full time staff are Debian Maintainers and
       | Debian Developers. One of the full time staff is a Mobian
       | Developer and is very active in maintaining/developing Mobian.
       | 
       | - Purism has made a lot of effort to ensure that their
       | applications and framework is available to the Pinephone, and to
       | the greater community. Purism's work has helped advanced the
       | Pinephone many times over.
       | 
       | - Several Purism employees are active in the Pinephone community,
       | and help out not only the devs, but users who need help!
       | 
       | - For those that know my work (I have been working on MMS and VVM
       | for the Pinephone/Librem 5), the Purism developers took a lot of
       | time to help and mentor me so that I could get these features out
       | there. They simply did not have to do that, but they did. I
       | simply do not think those features would be available at all if
       | it weren't for their help. (To those devs, I won't name you as I
       | don't know if you want to be named, but you know who you are, You
       | have my sincere gratitude.)
       | 
       | - Their Coreboot efforts has enabled others to port coreboot to
       | other laptops. Here is one example:
       | https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/50924.html?thread=1900524
       | 
       | These are just examples I am exposed to and can readily give off
       | the top of my head.
       | 
       | To me, a company that does that sort of work, I do think they are
       | sincere in the fact that they have supply chain troubles, which
       | is why the Librem 5 has taken so long to get into users hands.
       | 
       | Also, I see that $799 price tag as not only buying the phone, but
       | also paying the developers who do all of the wonderful things
       | that I outlined above. As much as I like the Pinephone, the $150
       | you pay is for just that, the phone. Most of the software
       | ecosystem you see from the Pinephone comes from unpaid volunteers
       | (such as myself). I'm not saying that is a bad thing, I actually
       | think having such a cheap phone is great! But I don't think a lot
       | of folks have these things in mind when they see the difference
       | in price.
       | 
       | And before it's asked, yes, my Librem 5 has shipped, I should get
       | the package early next week.
        
       | fataliss wrote:
       | Is the expected Linus mobile os experience more of a mini laptop
       | with a touchscreen or are they really going after the Android/iOS
       | feel?
        
         | Arnavion wrote:
         | The latter. You can look up videos of "phosh" to see what it
         | looks like.
         | 
         | If you _want_ a mini-laptop OS because you always run it docked
         | or something, you 're of course free to use a desktop-first
         | shell that provides that. Though the phone-first shells also
         | support that already ("convergence").
        
           | zozbot234 wrote:
           | The videos of 'phosh' one can see online are not that
           | encouraging - the experience seems very sluggish and quite
           | far from "daily driver" quality.
        
             | fsflover wrote:
             | It depends on how old those videos are:
             | https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-getting-faster-with-age/.
        
       | AzzieElbab wrote:
       | Big Ouch on that 2k phone
        
         | masterof0 wrote:
         | Yeah, I wonder why they didn't prioritize lowering the cost to
         | make it more accessible to people? This project can only take
         | of if lots of people start using the phone. I doubt a few
         | hundreds of folks, mostly in first world countries, with a
         | decently high income, would be a large enough crowd for this
         | project's long time success, I hope they become successful. The
         | laptop in the other hand, is decently priced, for what it
         | offers.
        
         | comprev wrote:
         | Absolutely bonkers pricing. Looks like the niche market is die-
         | hard people on FAANG engineer salaries.
        
           | TimTheTinker wrote:
           | Or journalists, or politicians, or dissidents... anyone whose
           | livelihood depends on privacy.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | Only the made-in-USA version costs $2k.
        
           | masterof0 wrote:
           | Yeah, the other one cost 900. Not necessarily cheap.
           | 
           | https://shop.puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
        
             | agumonkey wrote:
             | if the bill can be flatten let's make it so
        
         | jwithington wrote:
         | i had that same confusion! they should clarify that on their
         | site.
        
       | runako wrote:
       | This looks very interesting. However, it does put into context
       | how much value operational scale brings:
       | 
       | - The Librem 5 specs out in the ballpark of the 2016 iPhone 7
       | Plus.
       | 
       | - My goodness it's expensive. Similarly-specced iPhones still on
       | the market are in the $300 range.
       | 
       | Obviously kill switches etc. are worth some money, but it's still
       | surprising to see the magnitude of the value differential.
       | 
       | I'm always going to root for more competition in the market, so I
       | hope this does well. But I am baffled at who the target market
       | is. "Is okay with outdated phone but willing to pay 3x for it"
       | would seem to be a very small market.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | > Obviously kill switches etc. are worth some money
         | 
         | It's much more than just kill switches:
         | 
         | https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
        
           | runako wrote:
           | Hence the "etc." in my comment.
           | 
           | But the product page on the website (not the community wiki,
           | which is not linked from the product page) leads with the low
           | specs and the next feature is kill switches. I didn't make
           | the choice of how to position the product.
        
         | masterof0 wrote:
         | You are buying into the ideology/promise/cause. Is like buying
         | a $200 poster, just because it has your favorite
         | singer/politician/influencer/... on it.
        
           | neilsimp1 wrote:
           | Maybe. But you're also financing the development of free
           | software that is used not only by Purism but other companies
           | and FOSS groups.
        
       | spicybright wrote:
       | I'm always very nervous about replacing my phone with something
       | not main stream.
       | 
       | My laptop is fine to tinker with, but I don't want some issue
       | coming up making me unable to use my phone in a situation where
       | I'd need it.
        
       | fsflover wrote:
       | PureOS is officially endorsed by the FSF [0], and it's the most
       | popular one among the endorsed [1].
       | 
       | [0] https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-adds-pureos-to-list-of-
       | endorsed...
       | 
       | [1] https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity
        
       | gunapologist99 wrote:
       | If you want an actual (non-Android) Linux phone experience,
       | there's only one that's actually shipping:
       | 
       | https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-conve...
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | But note that it's significantly less performant than Librem 5:
         | https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-
         | linux-p....
        
           | gunapologist99 wrote:
           | True, but from $899 to > $2,000, it's also at least 4.5 times
           | as expensive (!!!) as $199 for the PinePhone.
           | 
           | And, it exists today and runs an Arch Linux derivative like
           | the SteamDeck.
           | 
           | As they say in the old country, a device in the hand is worth
           | two in the bush.
        
           | Klonoar wrote:
           | The thing is, neither of these devices is a usable daily
           | driver yet for people outside of fanatics (and I don't say
           | this with negativity - fanaticism is probably what builds
           | these products, or sub your term here, e.g devoted).
           | 
           | If you're looking to dabble and write apps to contribute to
           | the ecosystem, the PinePhone is arguably a steal. I grabbed
           | one over the Librem 5 mostly due to price and availability.
        
         | b1n wrote:
         | My PinePhone runs _significantly_ faster than my Librem 5, on
         | account of my Librem 5 not existing - even after being part of
         | the original kickstarter-esq funding.
        
       | dogman144 wrote:
       | I'd love to buy Purism phone but their shipping delays seem
       | insane.
        
       | SubiculumCode wrote:
       | Curious, is there a way to run android apps (either natively or
       | in a vm)?
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | Yes, in Anbox: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-
         | wiki/-/wikis/Freque....
        
       | GRBurst wrote:
       | I am very curious about Linux phones and getting away from
       | Android (Using Graphene OS RN). But my experience weren't very
       | satisfying.
       | 
       | Could someone give me a quick overview or link to different Linux
       | based OS for smartphones?
       | 
       | How is this one different from Sailfish?
       | 
       | Happy to hear from you! :-)
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-p...
         | 
         | Sailfish is proprietary, not FLOSS.
        
           | GRBurst wrote:
           | Ah nice, short and concise and the link looks like what
           | wanted, perfect
        
       | smallerfish wrote:
       | Is there any move towards a Linux-mobile equivalent of FlatPak,
       | so that the same apps can be made to run on PureOS, Sailfish,
       | Plasma Mobile, etc? It'd be in vendors' interest to collaborate
       | on a common standard, as developers are going to find it a pain
       | to have to target different distros, as has happened on desktop
       | Linux. Given that it's a more or less brand new space, might as
       | fix the problem before it becomes one.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Development_Environment/Wo...
         | 
         | > Linux-mobile equivalent
         | 
         | Librem 5 runs desktop GNU/Linux, so you don't need any
         | equivalents really.
        
         | seba_dos1 wrote:
         | There is, and it's called... well, Flatpak :)
        
           | smallerfish wrote:
           | Good - and there's legitimately consensus on using it in the
           | various mobile os app stores?
        
       | nickstinemates wrote:
       | Cool let me know when its available so I can buy one.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | Consider supporting them with a preorder if you can. They have
         | a hard time currently AFAIK.
        
           | nickstinemates wrote:
           | 180 day lead time with a warning about procurement delays
           | doesn't instill a lot of confidence. Along with a $900 price
           | tag seems a little too risky.
        
       | olyjohn wrote:
       | I'm desperate to get off of the iPhone / Android ecosystem. The
       | problem for me is that I live in a weird spot and no cell
       | reception comes to my house. I bought a Pinephone, but it doesn't
       | support WiFi calling... Is there an open source phone like this
       | that supports WiFi calling? I used to own a femtocell back in the
       | 3g days... but I'm on an MVNO who doesn't offer one, and WiFi
       | calling is the only way I can get any service at my house. I have
       | a landline, but it gets so many junk phone calls, I'm about to
       | disconnect it completely... Maybe I need an LTE repeater with a
       | big ass antenna mounted high above my house. Seems like the only
       | option I have, if those even exist.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | https://social.librem.one/@joao/106815850485862296
        
         | xbmcuser wrote:
         | You can get Chinese built repeaters for $100-200 I know of them
         | as a friend was also thinking of installing one but he moved to
         | another city so can't recommend a brand or anything
        
         | kop316 wrote:
         | > open source phone like this that supports WiFi calling
         | 
         | Even on Android, WiFi Calling is done via a proprietary
         | library, AOSP doesn't support it. As of now, no one has
         | attempted to RE the protocol, so no open source solution
         | exists.
        
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