[HN Gopher] Sailfish 4
___________________________________________________________________
Sailfish 4
Author : nabla9
Score : 344 points
Date : 2021-08-26 11:56 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sailfishos.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (sailfishos.org)
| ognarb wrote:
| Are they still using qt 5.6?
| poetaster wrote:
| Yes. But there is progress. The only real suckage is webview &
| co. I'm ok with lagging a bit, but for web.
| mpol wrote:
| It's complicated :)
|
| After Qt 5.6 some important parts were relicensed as GPL. Which
| means that the Wayland compositor and some other Jolla parts
| needs to be either GPL (which the main investor is reluctant to
| do) or Jolla needs to buy a commercial license for Qt (which
| the main investor is reluctant to do).
|
| I understand that the developers at Jolla are ready to flip the
| switch to a newer Qt and have been for some time, but there is
| no business decision made yet.
| melony wrote:
| How's Sailfish's UI performance compared to a typical Android
| flagship?
| bitL wrote:
| It's smooth. I'd say more smooth than older Androids (<7).
| Haven't seen any UI hiccups on Xperia 10ii nor Jolla C.
| Definitely the most polished Linux smartphone experience
| (outside Android if you still consider that a Linux smartphone
| and not a tracking device).
| rado wrote:
| This site is incredibly slow to scroll/render. Closed.
| martini333 wrote:
| When a website hijacks the scroll behaviour of the browser, then
| I'm not interested in what they offer.
| kennydude wrote:
| Same, it's a horrifically negative and terrible user experience
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| It has to be said that I find the ties to the Russian government
| most disturbing for a "privacy"-focused OS, specially after I
| realized it's not actually OSS.
|
| EDIT: Emphasis on the non-OSS part. I couldn't care less as long
| as it was actually fully open.
| poetaster wrote:
| A great deal is FOSS. Look on github. All my apps are gpl. The
| move away from libhybris is just a matter of time. And jolla
| has more experience in the space than anyone.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| No, you're wrong like I was. It's not just the hardware parts
| that are closed (what's under libhybris). It's also the
| entire UI toolkit (the library that they have on top of Qt)
| and most of the built-in applications that are closed source.
| poetaster wrote:
| Hmm. Don't use the built ins, but i do use silica. My focus
| is to do dev, and convince them to open more as the
| external devs generate more value. See the obs build
| service... Etc.
| poetaster wrote:
| Also, closed source shoos that actively promote patching
| are ok by me.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| You do not even use the builtin phone dialer? It's
| closed. Settings app? Closed. Etc.
| poetaster wrote:
| Well, i do use contacts and dialer and the broken
| settings interfaces. Yep, it us all just one grand
| experiment. I rdcdntly had to ask where in qml land to
| hack my event screen. Well, that was hackable. I dint buy
| marketing bull from anyone. I wasnt and am not interested
| in the privacy angle as long as google and apple are the
| norm.
| tbr wrote:
| Yep, "Always has been" _sigh_
| poetaster wrote:
| So guess we're left with librem then? Ubuntu touch, plasma,
| mobian, etc are not useable. For my part I'll keep working on
| opening it up. Like my local school system, city hall, etc.
| All of which have lock in with private companies that hold
| the ip close to the chest. It's a lot if wirk, it is.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| There's still KaiOS, but it's closed-source and aimed at
| feature phones. And seems like Tizen never got anywhere on
| phones.
| tbr wrote:
| They promised the world, their management didn't understand
| what OSS meant. It was pretty bad early on. Their investors
| also didn't understand OSS and thus made sure that core parts
| never became OSS. That's why there was NemoMobile, it was
| (is?) a true and fully open source implementation, replacing
| all the proprietary Sailfish bits.
|
| It could have been great, but many mistakes where made in
| many places, not just by management. Now it's a fringe OS,
| with a closed source UI and no noticeable market share. Let
| alone growth in such.
|
| NB: This is based on my personal involvement up to 2015-ish.
| poetaster wrote:
| The ui bits atop qt, silica, is indeed closed. But you can
| develope for sfos without silica. I have a pure sdl app.
| Still, they are trying to find a way without going the data
| hog way. As they are doing license foo in automotive space,
| i'd guess it'll take time. But it is also the value in jolla.
| Excellent industrial design.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| "The ui bits" is an understatement, because UI & builtin
| apps is actually where the meat is, and they know it. The
| kernel, Qt, the standard desktop stuff, etc. they are
| _forced_ to open, unless they want to violate the GPL. But
| whenever there is anything they're not forced to open, and
| someone else could potentially have an interest to actually
| see the source, then they keep it closed. It's actually
| less open than Android!
|
| You can also have pure SDL apps on WINDOWS, out of all
| platforms, so what is the point? And sure, there is also
| value in that, but "privacy" value?
| poetaster wrote:
| The point i was making us that you can build apps without
| silica. That will result in your apps looking like they do
| on apple, ie whatever. I could fake most of silica if i
| wished, but i hope jolla finally turns the corner and can
| stop being so tight fisted. I believe they will. Othwise i
| would not develope there. I will of course work to make my
| apps run everywhere. Quite a few do.
| james-bcn wrote:
| I don't see any ties with the Russian government, just that
| they are getting investment from a Russian telecom.
| dgudkov wrote:
| A Russian _state-owned_ telecom.
| the-dude wrote:
| At least I won't be extradited to Russia.
| smallerfish wrote:
| Can you point to references about Russian gov involvement? I
| see from the Sailfish page that it's deployed widely in Russia,
| but Jolla themselves are Finnish (https://jolla.com/about/),
| not exactly the most Russia friendly country around. That their
| OS is used in Russia isn't the same as it being Russian
| developed, which it doesn't appear to be(?)
| [deleted]
| xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote:
| They probably meant this: https://blog.jolla.com/new-
| strategic-investor-joins-sailfish...
| Raed667 wrote:
| > Russia trusts in Aurora OS
|
| > One of the first customers for OMP was Russian Post
|
| https://sailfishos.org/cases/
| smallerfish wrote:
| > The product was soon re-branded to Aurora OS. Aurora OS
| is an independent, "standalone" product and derivative work
| of Sailfish OS, and property of Open Mobile Platform LLC.
|
| From your link. Is there any evidence of them pushing code
| back upstream?
| mpol wrote:
| Yes, the latest release have seen some code contributions
| from Aurora. Some well-known people in the community even
| work for Aurora, like coderus.
|
| To be fair, without the Russian investor, there would be
| no Jolla anymore :)
| l-albertovich wrote:
| Up till now I was thinking this seemed very interesting and the
| price point of getting it wasn't bad at all (quickly searched
| amzn to see what the Xperia 10 II price was) but if what you
| say is true then it would be kind of worrying.
|
| Edit: For some reason I missed a bunch of words when I posted.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| The open source part is basically a middleware layer that uses
| libhybris to work with downstream AOSP kernels and device
| drivers. This might have been useful at some point, but we have
| better choices now, like forward-porting these supported
| devices to work properly with a mainline kernel and userspace.
| nabla9 wrote:
| This is not true.
|
| Russian connection is just the Russian government decision to
| use Sailfish as the base for their own Aurora OS. China and
| India are also somewhat interested.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Rostelecom (Russia public telecom) basically has majority
| stake in Sailfish. This stuff is not hard to search online,
| you know.
|
| https://together.jolla.com/question/178875/rostelecom-
| acquir... https://www.mobileworldlive.com/devices/news-
| devices/russian... https://blog.jolla.com/new-strategic-
| investor-joins-sailfish... et al.
|
| But this is not the problem. I would not have any problem
| with a 100% russian OS, as long as it was OSS. But Sailfish
| is also not OSS. That is the problem.
| mpol wrote:
| "But Sailfish is also not OSS. That is the problem."
|
| I see this posted as a problem often, sometimes even "the"
| problem. I do understand it is a problem, but at the
| current moment there has been no better Linux phone then a
| Jolla or Sony with Sailfish.
|
| So for people shying away from Sailfish, because it is not
| fully open source, I wonder what people use instead.
|
| Is it an open source AOSP system (with probably binary
| drivers)? I would not trust that all Google stuff was
| removed from AOSP, I don't even trust it for Chromium. Or
| do people use Ubuntu Touch that is probably fully open
| source on some systems? Everything right now is a
| compromise. I do hope that it will change in the near
| future.
|
| My main argument for the last 7 years was that I want a
| Linux phone in my pocket, that I can order today and use
| tomorrow. A Linux phone that serves me, with simple root
| access, ssh access, compiling apps and installing anything,
| messing about in /etc.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Because if there's something proprietary running on it,
| how are you going to "install anything" without breaking
| the proprietary parts? You will not be able to replace
| the kernel, you will not be able to upgrade any library
| (not even libssl when the time comes, and it will come),
| you will not be able to customize the software to your
| liking, etc.
|
| You lose half the benefits of having an open system in
| the first place. I will have exactly the same issues than
| I do when a run Google Android: no control over the
| device. You're 100% at the whims of Sailfish.
|
| And as for "OSS Android" still having unknown Google
| stuff, I disagree.
| debacle wrote:
| It has to be said that if you are more worried about Russian
| involvement than you would be Britain, the US, or China you
| might be ethnist.
| girvo wrote:
| As someone who considers the Nokia N9 the greatest phone ever
| made, I'd love to pick up an Xperia 10 ii and pay for a
| license... but apparently because I live in Australia, I'm not
| authorised? What's up with that -- seems like an odd restriction.
| mpol wrote:
| It has to do with bureacracy and regulations. Even the UK fell
| off after the Brexit. The most common advise is to use a VPN or
| your own VPS to download the free image for trying out and also
| for buying the license in the shop.
| mempko wrote:
| Do what some do and use a VPN inside europe to buy your license
| ;-)
| ekianjo wrote:
| but they can then revoke your license anytime?
| mpol wrote:
| In all those years I haven't heard of even one situation
| where this happened. I think the Sailfish X licensing
| exists since 2017 and many people have gone this route.
| gardaani wrote:
| You try to can build it yourself [1] for many devices [2].
|
| [1] https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Sailfish_X_Build_and_Flash
|
| [2] https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris
| poetaster wrote:
| Just try a community port. I iwn a jolla phone, but daily
| driver is a volla phone and backup a fairphone 2
| 6d65 wrote:
| I was thinking not too long ago about how phones are missing an
| installable os with a clear business plan.
|
| There is the potential(given an unlocked bootloader), to use
| webusb to allow people flash the OS from an official website.
|
| And maybe at a later day allow install from phone to phone via a
| cable, as a lot of people nowadays don't have a PC.
|
| The pricing will be tricky though, $5 per install given a large
| user base, plus maybe some additional features for sale.
|
| That being said, having an OS also means having an appstore, that
| alone could generate enough revenue to make the OS free.
|
| By OS I mean an Android fork or a fuchsia based OS if the license
| allows it.
| dangus wrote:
| Is there a _desktop_ OS with a clear business plan?
|
| Windows is collecting data and milking a declining Enterprise
| client base, all the early "influencer" companies use macOS.
| Regular consumers essentially refuse to pay for Windows even if
| they prefer it.
|
| macOS isn't installable and is subsidized by hardware sales and
| monthly services.
|
| That leaves you with *nix, which is free. No business plan!
|
| In 2021 I don't think operating systems are a good business to
| be in! You can make more money selling subscription sleep apps
| or budget apps which have way less complexity.
| 6d65 wrote:
| Well, Microsoft became quite a big company off the OS and
| their business suite.
|
| Of course it will be hard to find corporate clients for a
| mobile os, but may be doable.
|
| But, you're right, aside from Microsoft and Red hat, and
| maybe CoreOS some time ago, people don't seem to earn money
| from OSes, unless I'm missing something.
| poetaster wrote:
| Automotive. Looks like combined native qt android. Which jolla
| knows...
| phh wrote:
| Yup. Considering my Android ROM can reach thousands of various
| phone models, from 30$ devices to 1000$ deviecs, and I can
| upgrade devices stuck on 3 years-old Android to latest Android
| versions, I believe I have a good basis to monetize it.
|
| And so far, I haven't seen any path towards monetization.
|
| Most people won't give you directly money, unless maybe you
| target very specific niches, like privacy or FLOSS (And I don't
| believe I can address either of those).
|
| As you mentioned, another possibility is to get revenue through
| app store (or other revenue sharing sources) possibilites.
| There is the obvious one, Google Play Store. I simply can't
| bear Google's bureaucraty, and if I were to try that, I'd have
| died of old age.
|
| Other actors would be much more willingly to discuss to 3rd
| parties, maybe Aptoide or Amazon Store would be interested? But
| then, you can't have Google Services, and usage would be much
| more limited. Also, I believe that the revenue from people out
| of Amazon Store is much lower than Play Store, because people
| have less trust towards it (but I could be wrong there).
|
| 5$ per install is imo far from enough, because it barely pays
| for the bandwidth to download OTAs for one year. Unless you
| mean 5$ per install and per OTA, but I don't like the idea of
| having the user pay for security upgrades. Also, it lacks an
| important property to replace revenue sharing, which is
| adaptability to users' money (if the user has a lot of money,
| the revenue sharing will give more money, and it's better for
| reach to still have a place for low income people, notably
| indian peoples can give you a lot of advertisement "for free"
| but they don't have much money)
| 6d65 wrote:
| You have fair points and much more experience than I have in
| this domain.
|
| Yeah, $5 even at a 1M users is probably not that much, having
| to maintain drivers, and as you mentioned serving updates,
| that would require a team.
|
| With regards to the Google apps, I think a company would be
| better off trying to make something of their own, or
| collaborate with some app makers, at least for difficult
| stuff like maps, camera, gallery, browser(not sure about the
| paid codecs)
|
| As for the app store, I know that's a big project, but that
| would have to be custom and a core product of the company.
|
| Hope you'll eventually find a way to monetize your ROM.
| phh wrote:
| For what it's worth, I indeed thought of a a direction
| where app store would be the major aspect of it.The idea
| would be this ROM would be a "safe place". With regards to
| app store, this would mean:
|
| - with "all you can eat" monthly subscription that gets you
| all the apps included, so no whaling allowed
|
| - and with severe policing against dark patterns
|
| - including a "panic button" so users can report whether
| they got addicted to some app.
|
| But when I tried to design that, I very quickly ended up
| into a rabbit hole of "how to compute which app deserves
| which share of the revenue". And then, how to define "dark
| patterns".
|
| And here I am, still haven't actually tried anything.
| oriettaxx wrote:
| The official list of supported devices is in
| https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012176974-Sai...
| greyivy wrote:
| Is Sailfish running on top of Android in this case? I'm a
| little confused on why Android version is relevant.
| mempko wrote:
| Sailfish does not run on top of Android. It is a gnu/linux
| system with a Qt interface. It has an Android layer called
| AlienDalvik which runs on top of it. But it also has native
| apps written in C++/Qt. You can also run FlatPack apps which
| is interesting. I believe it uses Wayland for it's display
| server.
|
| The Android apps blend pretty seamlessly with the whole
| experience. For example, the keyboard that pops up in Android
| apps is the same as the one in that pops up in native apps.
| pedrogpimenta wrote:
| I don't think so, the model numbers are specified:
|
| > Sony Xperia X Single SIM (F5121) > Sony Xperia X Dual SIM
| (F5122)
|
| Get the compact model's number to check.
| marbu wrote:
| My guess is that Sailfish OS is reusing android device
| drivers.
| bitL wrote:
| It uses AOSP binary blobs published by Sony when installed
| on Xperias.
| poetaster wrote:
| Libhybris is andoid dependant. There are a ton of community
| ports. The volla I use (gigaset gs290 also) also has ubuntu
| touch support. But sfos is much better. Mobian can also be
| installed via ubports, but i havent tried.
| underscore_ku wrote:
| Ubuntu Touch supports way more devices https://devices.ubuntu-
| touch.io/
| muterad_murilax wrote:
| Xperia X is listed there. Anyone knows if that also includes
| the Compact model?
| pwiecz wrote:
| I can see several of the compact models here:
| https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris#Sony
|
| But e.g. not XZ1c
| bitL wrote:
| Only Sony devices enrolled in their Open Devices program -
| typically only one device per generation.
| mempko wrote:
| I've been using Sailfish for years as my daily driver including
| the the new 4.1 version. Support for Android apps is great. They
| don't officially sell a license in the US but I am using it in
| the US. Up until recently it has been fine but with mobile
| carries now turning off 3G, I can't use for SMS or phone calls in
| the US anymore (I have AT&T).
|
| I am hoping the next version, which is coming out soon, will
| support VoLTE, but until it does, Sailfish is useless as an
| actual phone in the USA in the very near future.
|
| I am currently tethering my Sony Xperia 10 II with another cheap
| android phone so I can keep using it outside my house. Yes, I
| don't want to use iOS or Android that desperately. I enjoy using
| Sailfish that much.
| worldsayshi wrote:
| My phone is soon old enough for not getting proper updates. I'd
| love to switch to Sailfish on it but there are apps that I rely
| on that doesn't work without Google's Android API. So I guess I
| will have to buy a new Android which feels very unnecessary and
| wasteful.
| tristan957 wrote:
| I am not at all familiar with SFOS, but it seems MicroG is
| available for it.
| cbm-vic-20 wrote:
| "the only mobile OS offering an exclusive licensing model for
| local implementations."
|
| What does this mean?
| ac29 wrote:
| Sounds like they offer regional exclusivity to interested
| partners: https://sailfishos.org/cases/
| zahllos wrote:
| Yes, looks like Russia wants to reduce dependence on iOS and
| Android: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Aurora_OS
| TingPing wrote:
| I think they are saying its proprietary and can be licensed.
| Weird wording to not be obvious its worse than Android
| licensing?
| woliveirajr wrote:
| > Currently, it is available for Xperia 10 II, Xperia 10, Xperia
| 10 Plus, single and dual-SIM variants of Sony Xperia XA2, Xperia
| XA2 Plus, Xperia XA2 Ultra, Sony Xperia X, and Gemini PDA.
|
| So, EU-only (and 2 or 3 morecountries) and limited devices.
| sakebomb wrote:
| I use it here in the US. As for the devices, the ones you
| listed are the ones licensed. There are a lot more community
| ports:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Community_enthusia...
| poetaster wrote:
| I use a gs290 from gigaset. Dirt cheap. Use a community port
| installed with ubports. Dead simple. Build apps with qt. Qt.
| Have fun.
| Mutjake wrote:
| I wonder if Sailfish or a scrubbed Android (GrapheneOS?) would be
| worthwhile to give a test run for. Hard passing Apple is going to
| be painful, but I'm having trouble stomaching the direction where
| they see implanting end-user devices for LE purposes, so I might
| need to give it a spin. Any experiences on what would be the
| biggest pain points as a daily driver?
| HanaShiratori wrote:
| GrapheneOS is great as a daily driver. The only breaking point
| might be the incompatibility of certain apps that depend on
| google play services, but this is a highly subjective matter
| and depends on how far you go in restricting yourself. (Strict
| with only FOSS apps vs loose with some privacy invading apps
| from the play store via Aurora)
|
| But since there are plenty of apps in the froid store there are
| plenty of free alternatives...
| rav3ndust wrote:
| I run LineageOS with zero Google services (no microG either -
| no need for it) as my daily phone, and have been for several
| years now across a series of devices (currently, a Moto z3 Play
| and an Essential PH-1).
|
| I prefer to use FOSS apps where I can, and as such, most of my
| installed apps come from F-Droid. When I do need something from
| the Play Store, I simply use the Aurora Store to grab those
| applications (which are really just Paypal and Slack for work).
|
| Potential issues you might run into are some apps like banking
| and such not functioning thanks to SafetyNet. For banking, I
| just use the browser anyway, have never had the need to use my
| local bank's mobile app.
|
| It really depends all on your needs, but you will find that
| using a de-Googled device is very doable as a daily driver, and
| I have been doing it for a number of years now - I can't tell
| you when the last time I signed into a "Googled" Android device
| was.
|
| I also have a few PinePhones (my first testing grounds for
| Sailfish, interestingly enough) and am a huge proponent of
| Linux phones. I throw my SIM in my Pinephone sometimes and use
| it often for testing development stuff. For daily driving,
| however, my de-Googled devices are still what I reach for the
| most.
| Mutjake wrote:
| Guess I could give a shoutout to fellow people in Oulu with
| their handset marketed to government use mostly I guess(?)
| https://toughmobile2.bittium.com/
|
| Meaning the price for a consumer is steep and dunno if some of
| the features are useless without the matching backend. But I
| guess the level of security should be good. At least the folks
| from Bittium I've interacted with seem to know what they're
| doing, for what that counts for :-)
| greyivy wrote:
| Graphene was a little too restrictive for my liking,
| personally. It also felt dated. Calyx has been a sweet spot
| between privacy and features.
| saladuh wrote:
| My friend's been running LineageOS with Microg[0], I'm waiting
| on a Pixel so I can run CalyxOS (with Microg) because I'm not
| keen on the security downsides of Lineage. He says it's been an
| incredibly stable set up. GrapheneOS is a great alternative to
| Calyx from what I've read, if you rely less on play store apps
| that require google Android APIs (that Microg also implements).
| GrapheneOS vs CalyxOS is a trade between convience+pretty good
| privacy (Calyx) and better security+privacy (GrapheneOS, as
| when you do use proprietary apps relying on Gapps it's all
| sandboxed).
|
| [0] https://microg.org/
| 0des wrote:
| Please do not take this as me being flippant, but it is also an
| option to reclaim your independence and not use a smartphone,
| or any phone at all. Since I started doing this, the effects on
| myself were as expected, better focus, etc, but the secondary
| effects on my social circle were unexpected. People take more
| care to be on time when they say they are meeting me places, no
| more calls as I arrive saying "oh okay, youre there? Im walking
| out the door". No more "drive by" social interactions that
| spawn new storylines and gossip that I dont need to be a part
| of.
|
| What was most unexpected is how, unprompted, a lot of the most
| ardent phone abusers in my social circle started gradually
| releasing themselves from their phones, putting them in a
| drawer, or just outright turning them off for weekends.
|
| I have a single prepaid phone that my wife has the number to,
| it has no apps, no email, no scrolly things. When we are apart,
| it is turned on, otherwise, my time is otherwise occupied.
| zamalek wrote:
| > not use a smartphone, or any phone at all.
|
| There are some real-world issues with that, all of which a
| friend recently encountered (they don't even use a credit
| card). Firstly, if you don't set up internet/mobile banking,
| it does leave you open to someone doing it "for you." Luckily
| money in the bank is insured, but that doesn't help the
| stress experienced by a 70 y/o (who was doing all the right
| stuff, as she's retired intelligence). Secondly, you're going
| to struggle if you're forced into some situation away from
| your landline, such as a hospital visit.
|
| I was able to repurpose my Pixel 4 with GrapheneOS for her:
| no app store, no email, no scrolly things, data disabled, _no
| e-waste,_ nothing but phone calls over LTE.
| Mutjake wrote:
| Thanks, giving it a thought. I might be too in love with tech
| to go to the deep end, but it's never a bad idea to consider
| that option either. I'd need to learn to use a paper calendar
| and to carry it with me at that point for sure :-)
| pwython wrote:
| And go back to reading shampoo bottles on the toilet. :)
| Mutjake wrote:
| There's definitely going to be a market opportunity in
| publishing the James Joyce's Ulysses in a limited edition
| shampoo bottle format. The perfect vanity gift for that
| special someone who already has everything, but tends to
| forget their phone when heading to the ministry of magic
| :-)
| mackrevinack wrote:
| the part in chapter 4 where leopold is squeezing one out
| would work great!
| amartya916 wrote:
| Thank you for taking the time to share this idea with us; it
| certainly made me think.
| bdcravens wrote:
| Native track pad functionality doesn't work (2-finger swipe to go
| back).
|
| Please stop hijacking native scroll functionality in an attempt
| for clever designs. You're breaking the web.
| alexandrerond wrote:
| I'm very happy to see that Sailfish keeps shipping because more
| alternatives are always good.
|
| I tried to use it a while ago (Sailfish 3) but was driven off it
| because of the huge gap between the marketing and the actual
| reality.
|
| The claim that they are privacy and security focused was total
| bogus (and perhaps someone can comment if it still is).
|
| To use the phone features, a Jolla account is needed, so it will
| "ping home to Jolla". Privacy policy is pretty standard, so they
| reserve the right to track you all they want and of course, this
| is tied to your license, payment method etc. So much for privacy
| focused...
|
| What fully drove me off was that they launched full disk
| "encryption", but the LUKS encryption-key password they used was
| the user's numeric pin (4-8 digits long). So encryption keys
| could be bruteforced by a kid and they seemed to be fine with it
| (I don't know if nowadays it supports a passphrase).
|
| Then I also learned that apps in the "app-store" were not signed
| in any way so impossible to certify that what you are installing
| is actually coming from the app repository etc. the phone was
| just lacking basic security all over the place.
|
| I hope they are closer now to closing the "gap" between their
| marketing and the reality.
| wvh wrote:
| I think that gap has more to do with manpower/funding than a
| lack of genuine desire on Jollas part to make those features
| work. I still don't understand why it's so hard for there to be
| a market for alternatives to iOS and Android, but as the
| Microsoft Nokia fiasco as well as the Ubuntu phone and delays
| of the Purism Librem phone show, it's not easy.
|
| I've been using Jolla and Meego before that and I like the
| interface a lot better than the main players. Granted, I'm not
| much of a phone/app user beyond the basics like a music player,
| calendar, clock and TOTP app, so your mileage may vary.
| fsflover wrote:
| > I'm very happy to see that Sailfish keeps shipping because
| more alternatives are always good.
|
| If you are searching for actually user-respecting alternatives
| based on FLOSS, have a look at Librem 5 and Pinephone.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Someone needs to build a true BSD phone to free FLOSS from
| the monopoly of Linux.
|
| Then a Haiku phone to break the monopoly of UNIX.
| fsflover wrote:
| https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=10877
| Apocryphon wrote:
| NetBSD or MINIX phone...
| btschaegg wrote:
| Why not "just" use Inferno? ;)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYPBAckCEQo
| poetaster wrote:
| There is still some truth to this. But the os does not phone
| home like google and apple phones do. Not even close. Package
| signing is usable but still not widly adopted. App jails are
| still in beta, since, 4. Luks passphrases are almost ready for
| noobs. I decided to work on it since it only calls home when
| you ask. And ui.
| poetaster wrote:
| Oh, and I don't have to beg apple to sign for me. Signed via
| play or the apple store means nothing. Signed with my gpg key,
| sure.
| 0x000000001 wrote:
| The use of GPG is a red flag for me in anything being
| developed past 2006. Just stop it already, it's terrible and
| there are better alternatives
| Koshkin wrote:
| Thank you. That fish has sailed for me.
| cupcake-unicorn wrote:
| Thanks for this, I was thinking of trying it on an Android
| media device. Is there a fork or is this totally proprietary?
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Nemo Mobile and/or Mer are, I _think_ , the FOSS builds/parts
| (I forget; there are way too many pieces and too many names
| in the mix), but the sailfish GUI is proprietary so YMMV.
|
| https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php?title=PinePhone_Software_R.
| ..
| poetaster wrote:
| I like SFOS because it has coherent ui and flexible styling. From
| meego to here guy, though. I actually like the SDK, even if it's
| a bit stale. I maintain c , js and pytheotherside apps. It's fun
| over here.
| lostgame wrote:
| What's strange is that the very first impression I got from this
| is that it's OSS - and it's not - which doesn't make it
| particularly attractive for me as an 'alternative'. Anyone else
| feel this way?
| api wrote:
| Why is purchase prohibited from the USA or other countries
| outside the supported ones? You can get unlocked Android phones
| and SIM cards just fine. Some tax nonsense?
| ch_123 wrote:
| That, or patent licensing issues. Since they seem to be
| positioning themselves as a privacy-oriented OS for governments
| and businesses, maybe they decided that their market lies
| elsewhere, and that licensing IP for the US is not worth it.
| huhtenberg wrote:
| Privacy-oriented and what not, but the website still pulls
| something off googletagmanager.com.
| notjustanymike wrote:
| It only pulls Google Analytics, not exactly nefarious software.
| abcd_f wrote:
| This is THE tracking implement of them all. "Not exactly
| nefarious"... bajezus.
| poetaster wrote:
| You can audit the source. There is very little closed, and that
| is primarily the android bits. I don't use those.
| mt_ wrote:
| Just like Apple does, if you can't audit the source code and
| build it yourself, the use of the keyword "privacy" is just a
| marketing gimmick.
| wedn3sday wrote:
| Big difference between the business people that want to have
| site visit numbers for their pitch deck, and the engineering
| people making the OS. That said, I totally agree that using the
| most notorious tracking website out there on your landing page
| for a privacy product is a bad choice.
| fractallyte wrote:
| I use Sailfish on a Sony Xperia XA2, as well as an iPhone and
| Android phone.
|
| The Sailfish UI far outclasses those other two. It's simple,
| consistent, and pretty. That's all one can ask for! And it's
| familiar Linux underneath, with easy access through SSH - no
| rooting required. This is the phone that everyone else wants,
| whether they realize it or not...
|
| In comparison, I find iOS annoyingly inconsistent and obtuse.
| Android is straightforward, but feels like a step backward.
|
| I just wish Jolla had bigger investors, and more developers. It's
| really a breath of fresh air in the claustrophobic (and
| increasingly dystopic) mobile landscape...
| sakebomb wrote:
| I totally agree with you. It is much easier to use overall.
|
| I wish more phone lines would give them a change like Nokia did
| with the N-series years ago.
| Nition wrote:
| This may have changed in the last few years, but another thing
| I really liked back when I ran Sailfish, was how even the
| third-party apps would use the standard UI assets and
| look/function exactly like native apps. That and the fact that
| they were usually open source and ad-free. For instance one I
| liked was "Solar System"[1]. Since no sane person would make a
| Sailfish app in order to get rich, Sailfish apps weren't trying
| to make money.
|
| [1] https://github.com/zeburon/sailfish-solarsystem
| poetaster wrote:
| Ditto. As an old apple guy i was dumbfounded that ios hadn't
| picked up anything from meego and on.
| p4bl0 wrote:
| Has anyone experience with Sailfish? Can it run apps like Signal
| and WhatsApp? Is it stable? I know the website says that it can,
| but I'm looking for actual user feedback.
|
| EDIT: What about the KDE Connect app?
| letharion wrote:
| No experience, but the shop (https://shop.jolla.com/ ) claims
| "Android App Support" so I'd expect you can run most apps.
| [deleted]
| bitL wrote:
| There is Whisperfish Signal client available on OpenRepos.net,
| if you don't want to install Android subsystem (I don't):
|
| https://openrepos.net/content/rubdos/whisperfish
| sakebomb wrote:
| I use it a majority of the time. (Seldom need Android for
| work). It runs Signal just fine, along with all the other chat
| apps. I enjoy Sailfish very much.
|
| I will say that installing the google play store is not a
| simple click through, but I also don't care for it. A majority
| of the apps I want don't use google play anyway.
|
| I would highly recommend you give it a try for a few weeks and
| you won't go back.
| ahnick wrote:
| What do you use for maps/navigation?
| mpol wrote:
| Not the parent poster. For maps I use OSM. I have 3 apps
| installed, Pure Maps, OSMscout and modRana. I don't use
| navigation, but I understand that with OSM the navigation
| can be somewhat of a disappointment.
|
| There was a native app for Here Maps, but IIRC it was only
| licensed and available for the Jolla 1. I don't have it
| installed on my Sony XA2 and I think it's not available
| either.
| bitL wrote:
| I have HERE Maps on Xperia 10 ii, straight from Jolla
| Store. Maybe it's because I bought their paid package?
| ahmedfromtunis wrote:
| I'm just curious: when you say "I enjoy Sailfish very much"
| what does that entail? What does it mean to enjoy an OS.
|
| I ask this because I find myself numerous times disappointed:
| after installing a new OS, there's mostly nothing "new" or
| outstanding to enjoy other than the few limited different
| features. After that, it's just the same old terminal and
| Chrome with the occasional trip to the file browser.
| mpol wrote:
| Not the parent poster, but I often say similar things :)
|
| For me it's the idea that the software provider thinks
| privacy is important and I trust them much more than Google
| or Apple. It's also very close to desktop linux. Root
| access over ssh is just one checkbox away in the settings.
| After that I can install any software that is available on
| Linux, or I can mess about in /etc.
|
| The Ambience system is very nice as well. With almost only
| native apps and a white-on-black ambience, my phone is
| visually very quiet and not that much distracting.
|
| It feels like I own this phone, almost as much as my
| desktop computer. I am not renting it where someone else
| has root access and I don't (or I have to fight for it).
| sakebomb wrote:
| I enjoy the overall user experience. They did a fantastic
| job with making navigation smooth.
|
| I am a linux desktop user so allowing me to ssh to my phone
| is amazing. Easy to terminal into it, gives me sudo, easy
| to navigate.
|
| For the Apps, this one is a little tricky, however I have
| managed to live with a few things such as open street maps
| over google maps. However, I can still use google maps just
| in browser. It is not ideal but it is not that bad. I am
| certain someone will come out with something in the future
| so it is a matter of waiting.
|
| There are absolutely things that can be improved no doubt.
| My personal experience is that I like to look at things in
| a more positive light of, what can I do rather than what
| can it not do. I got to the point of how I do not like
| Apple's and Google's practices, that you are basically
| locked into their environments and malicious practices.
|
| I own the phone and what is on it. That means a lot to me.
| Sailfish helps a lot with that. There are always naysayers,
| but they also are the same people that are too critical of
| things.
|
| Finding an old oneplus one or any community supported phone
| for cheap is not too bad. I ended up getting an XA2 and
| that worked out the best for me. I find that my phone
| performs quite well even though it is "older" compared to
| the latest flagships. I am not too caring about a 64
| megapixel photo or image blending etc. I can do that on my
| normal box.
| bionade24 wrote:
| It's once way easier to handle a real Linux box which can
| be backed up in the same way. Bash/Zsh scripts work and I
| can compile much more software for it than termux on
| Android supports.
|
| Additionally, the user interface is swipe-focused, with
| little bars where yozu can swipe that are that thin that
| they only trigger you subconcious, while not registering
| them actively with my view. It's the best unser interface
| design I've seen so far and recent iOS/Android design
| changes support the decisions they made years before
| Apple/Google.
| ravenstine wrote:
| On that topic, are there any desktop-oriented Linux distros
| that support Android apps? Seems like that could fill some gaps
| in some places where a native Linux app sucks but an Android
| equivalent would be sufficient. (obviously in a few but perhaps
| not most cases)
|
| Maybe emulation would be needed for most current machines and
| be really slow, but with more ARM laptops coming in the future
| it seems like something GNU/Linux would need to do to compete
| in that space.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| It can be done via Anbox or WayDroid, but additional steps
| (e.g. via QEMU) are needed to run ARM-based apps on a typical
| x86 desktop, and performance might be a bit underwhelming.
| memling wrote:
| > Has anyone experience with Sailfish? Can it run apps like
| Signal and WhatsApp? Is it stable?
|
| I ran Sailfish in the 2.x days on an old Moto G Falcon. They
| did not support Android apps at the time, but recent versions
| are supposed to.[1]
|
| My experience with Sailfish was pretty positive, but I have a
| high pain tolerance and don't need or want my phone to be more
| than a phone. (I need it to make calls and handle SMS/MMS. MMS
| messaging was iffy: reception was fine, but multiparty
| conversations didn't always thread well. I consider web
| browsing on the phone a bit of a mixed bag. Tethering is a
| bonus.)
|
| It was pretty. I liked being able to SSH into the phone. I
| appreciated the easy way to change themes (and that they
| migrated settings like volume, etc.). It was a slick O/S.
|
| Sadly my Falcon died, and I got a burner phone. It's hard to
| argue with $40 for the phone (KaiOS) and an MVNO that handles
| my comms on the cheap. I've toyed with the idea of picking up
| another one that's compatible and flashing the phone--but it
| looks like it's harder to get the OS onto newer devices these
| days.
|
| [1] https://sailfishos.org
| ryantgtg wrote:
| I think they did support Android apps at that time, but only
| on the official devices (which is the same situation as now).
|
| I flashed 2.x back then, too, back in the glory days of
| flashing ubuntu touch and firefox os, etc. I loved the UI of
| Sailfish. Fatal flaw for me was the inability to group text.
| As far as I know there is still no group texting. The
| European users/devs claim this isn't an issue, because they
| all use third party messaging apps.
|
| I'm glad they're still developing Sailfish!
| fractallyte wrote:
| It's my daily driver (on a Sony Xperia XA2). Signal and
| WhatsApp work perfectly, without any issues.
| poetaster wrote:
| Sigal via whisperfish. In rust!. I'm still on 3.4. Community
| port. Gigaset gs290. SFOS rocks.
| mpol wrote:
| Yes, the Android layer can run Whatsapp and Signal. I also run
| Firefox as an apk on it, I use the last v68 version of that.
|
| The Android layer is only available on the commercial version,
| and only on officially supported device. It has been available
| since 2013 on the original Jolla 1, which was for me the reason
| to upgrade from a Nokia N9.
|
| For me it is stable on my XA2. Though the software is made by a
| small company and their efforts are spread relatively thin.
| They don't have thousands of developers working on their mobile
| OS.
|
| For Android apps, the bluetooth stack of Android and
| Linux/Bluez is different, and the middleware called libhybris
| does not support offering bluetooth to Android apps. It might
| come in the future, many people in the community wish it to
| come available. There are many native apps, and there might not
| be that much need for all kinds of Android apps. Also, there is
| talk about offering Android support for community devices, like
| the Sony Tama devices (high end, small form factor) or Xiaumi
| devices.
| c-c-c-c-c wrote:
| I had the original jolla phone. Fun device and great for
| starting out developing simple apps.
|
| Back then they had a 3rd party whatsapp client called
| mittakuuluu (litteraly what's up in finnish) in addition to the
| official one running through the android layer.
|
| Since then whatsapp has blocked 3rd party clients and i believe
| youre not able to run whatsapp on the consumer version of
| sailfish.
|
| Something really cool they had was integration with whatsapp
| and the facebook messenger with the sms app with contacts
| synced across the three.
| mpol wrote:
| There were even two apps, Mittakuuluu by coderus, and Whatsup
| from older Symbian and Meego times. Both worked fine and were
| lovely to use, untill the company Whatsapp sent threatening
| letters from their lawyers to the developers.
|
| Whatsapp also often blocked users using those apps (I had it
| happen multiple times) and you could reactivate your account
| if you logged in with the official whatsapp.apk again. A few
| days later the Sailfish apps were updated and I would switch
| to one of those again :)
|
| So now there is no other option then use the whatsapp.apk, or
| just not use it and switch completely to Signal.
| ksec wrote:
| If anyone like me have some vague memory of the name Sailfish OS,
| here from Wiki:
|
| > _The OS is an evolved continuation of the Linux MeeGo OS
| previously developed by alliance of Nokia and Intel which itself
| relies on combined Maemo and Moblin_
|
| _MeeGo_. The era when both Nokia and Intel had zero freaking
| idea about Smartphone.
|
| But I am glad Sailfish is still doing great. It has been a long
| time since the name appeared in any media.
| ekianjo wrote:
| Are licenses still limited to Europe ?
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