[HN Gopher] Black barbers have become mental health advocates fo...
___________________________________________________________________
Black barbers have become mental health advocates for African
American men
Author : Tomte
Score : 204 points
Date : 2021-08-24 15:22 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (edition.cnn.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (edition.cnn.com)
| jacobrobbins wrote:
| This is really interesting and seems like a great example of how
| small businesses are better for their community than chains. When
| I lived in Fort Greene brooklyn I was surprised by how many
| barbershops and hair salons there were, like 5 or more on the
| single little triangular block at fulton and greene. It seemed
| clear they were providing more of a community function than just
| the utility of getting a haircut that i was familiar with. On a
| side note I never got comfortable with making conversation while
| getting my haircut and eventually settled on just cutting my own
| hair at home. That said I never tried the barbershop-type places
| and usually went to pretty generic haircut shops.
| gizmo686 wrote:
| Isn't McDonalds also well known to be a community center?
| txru wrote:
| McDonald's is a place people come with their community. Older
| folks sit there for hours etc because it's air
| conditioned/warm. The community doesn't really intersect with
| the employees though, besides the employees being friendly
| when the people order.
| imbnwa wrote:
| For elderly folk, sure
| rytor718 wrote:
| The black community in America has known this forever. We've
| had to rely on these kinds of businesses, not just as sources
| of goods and services, but as literal community centers that
| help people out, sometimes for free. Thats still true, same for
| salons, corner grocery stores, churches etc. Growing up, these
| little pieces of community were amazing and still are. While
| people are of course a little different, I still see these
| things in the community where I live and they still have the
| same compassionate professionals most of the time. They dont
| just sell things. They also give.
| djtriptych wrote:
| That's Clinton Hill!
| okareaman wrote:
| For me, this article is about mentoring younger people and
| benefits it provides. I mentor a young brilliant programmer who I
| used to work with. I maintained a relationship with him after I
| retired. He called me up last night frantic about some issues. I
| know he drinks too much and that he has mental health issues, so
| I was able to talk him through it. We talked about solutions for
| his drinking problem. He thanked me later for helping him. He
| calls me about 3 times a year with these freak outs. Helping him
| makes me feel useful and doing some good. I have a similar
| relationship with my son, so this programmer is like an adopted
| son, which I encourage because my philosophy is we are not alone
| in the world, but have people around us that care about us and
| are willing to help if we can put down our pride and ask for
| help. I wouldn't be alive today if I hadn't asked for help and
| then let people help me.
| SinParadise wrote:
| You are a good man.
| okareaman wrote:
| Thank you. I think most healthy people have this goodness in
| them but the modern world puts more emphasis satisfying the
| self. I discovered the benefits of practicing kindness when
| someone was kind to me.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| It isn't because they are barbers. That is secondary. These are
| men's groups. This is men helping other men. Thanks to continued
| differences re hairstyles barber shops are one of the very few
| all-male places left in modern society (other than locker rooms
| which have a distinct competitive air). So it is no surprise that
| many urban men feel at home and are more willing to talk at the
| barber than anywhere else.
| emerged wrote:
| I recently came to realize that many addiction groups are
| actually a social replacement for buddies who used to go out
| drinking / partying all the time.
|
| Since they can no longer party, a replacement group is needed
| and they all immediately share in common that they don't want
| to drink or take drugs.
|
| Maybe this is common knowledge but it was a lightbulb moment
| for me when I realized it.
| kgin wrote:
| I've long wished for AA type groups for people who arent
| necessarily struggling with addiction.
|
| We're all struggling.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > I've long wished for AA type groups for people who arent
| necessarily struggling with addiction.
|
| There are plenty of groups based on application of
| religious lore (often, very similar to the lore applied by
| AA) to aspects of behavior besides addiction.
| namlem wrote:
| I'm not sure that's entirely true. I feel like the same dynamic
| is still present in mixed-gender salons.
| imbnwa wrote:
| I can vouch that in both Black and Puerto Rican barbershops,
| the ones in my neighborhood and have attended for most of my
| life, the range of possible topics is much less confined than
| a unisex space. Like, to the degree that I have to question
| your level of experience.
|
| It's not just dude's safely talking about their problems as
| the article highlights, that's an aspect, its literally dudes
| speaking freely without female intervention, e.g. men talking
| sex, etc.
|
| When a mother comes in to drop off her son or waits idly with
| him until he's gotten his cut, or a barber's girlfriend makes
| a quick stop in, the topics _will change_. Dudes don 't just
| keep talking about the multiple women that they're engaging
| simultaneously in the presence of women (I understand one may
| find this topic distasteful but that's how some men use that
| space) , particularly since in these neighborhoods there are
| three degrees of separation or less, if not out of simple
| decency.
|
| Edit: Just to inflect this even more personally, my mother
| even was explicit about her desire for me to be acculturated
| more thoroughly in common Black masculinity by dropping me
| off at the barber shop because I was, relative to the other
| men in the world I grew up in, too bookish and (what gets
| called) introverted (I don't really like the use of that term
| but that's a different discussion), i.e. relatively feminine.
| That didn't really work, lol, but it was one of the few times
| she made her thought process explicit in my presence, which
| is why I distinctly remember it.
| vmception wrote:
| Barber shops are also full of the most toxic ignorant drivel
| you can possibly find in the physical world.
|
| This article and the positive comments highlights a need for
| actual mental health advocates aimed at men.
| imbnwa wrote:
| Eh, as a Black male, the possibility of ignorant shit tends
| to accord with how young the age average of the barbers is,
| older/elderly barbers aren't treated as peers usually and so
| have a modicum of authority to curtail discussions when they
| feel its out-of-line or inappropriate, not to mention they're
| usually more thoroughly religiously observant. The church use
| to be a space for discussion with an authority figure like
| that but most Black men, particularly younger ones, have
| evacuated the church.
| vmception wrote:
| This article and the positive comments highlights a need
| for actual mental health advocates aimed at men.
| imbnwa wrote:
| As someone who sees a therapist, there are issues more
| amenable to a public discussion with other men of your
| background (we're social animals after all) and there are
| issues that definitely should be addressed to a
| dispassionate professional. If the studies the article
| cites demonstrate literal public health improvement for
| Black men from attending that kind of space, there is
| something right being done there.
| alex_sf wrote:
| So they can be trained to think 'correctly'?
| hncurious wrote:
| You may not realize this, but policing the speech of
| communities and advocating that they be re-educated by the
| proper authorities has historically been the stuff of
| nightmares.
| ceilingcorner wrote:
| It goes against pretty much everything in the zeitgeist, but
| yeah, men and boys are really hurting from this lack of all-
| male spaces. I hope culture boomerangs around enough to permit
| them sometime soon.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| Duke has a space for men: "The Duke Men's Project is an
| initiative to call men in to conversations about feminism and
| gender oppression. It aims to create a space of brotherhood
| and fellowship dedicated to interrogating male privilege and
| patriarchy as it exists in our lives, our campus and our
| society." as sponsored by the Duke Women's Center.
|
| That's pretty much the kind of thing that is available for
| men.
| tejtm wrote:
| and on the other hand I see clubs such as Machining,
| Astronomy (and to a lesser degree HAM ?) struggling not to
| just be a dwindling old guy club.
| nitrogen wrote:
| Judging from the number of views machining videos get on
| YouTube, I suspect at least machining will have a chance of
| growing big again, under the name of "making".
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Shooting clubs. The really aggressive ones that meet in the
| woods to "train". Still predominantly all-male.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Yeah, that and an enormous number of other nearly all-male
| hobbies. Unfortunately this leaves men who aren't in to
| trains, electronics, shooting, cars, or other stuff with
| few options.
|
| Obvious disclaimer: there are plenty of women who like
| trains, electronics, shooting, cars and other stuff, but
| that doesn't change the very high chance of finding the
| romanticized "all-male-space" if you show to a rail fan
| meetup.
| shadilay wrote:
| For when you want to meet _all_ the feds in your area.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Of course. They are members of the clubs.
| [deleted]
| holdupnow wrote:
| I wish I had this at my barber.
| andyxor wrote:
| no matter how cute the barber story is, you can't ignore the fact
| this is political propaganda from a primary propaganda source.
|
| it's what pg calls "submarine PR", in this case for Dems
| "systemic racism" agenda, the more people believe this bs the
| more votes they get.
| dang wrote:
| You posted flamewar comments repeatedly to this thread. That's
| vandalism, if not arson, and definitely not cool.
|
| We ban accounts that do this, so please don't do this. Also,
| please don't post political flamebait as submissions (you've
| been doing that repeatedly recently), and definitely please
| don't use HN primarily for political battle, because that's
| definitely something we ban accounts for (see
| https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
| for past explanations).
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| poopypoopington wrote:
| Honestly what? How is what you're saying not a racist
| dogwhistle? It's political propaganda why? Because they're
| Black?
| dang wrote:
| " _Don 't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them
| instead._"
|
| a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| andyxor wrote:
| there is no evidence for systemic racism, is a purely
| political invention.
|
| Dems are fishing for minority votes through their favorite
| propaganda channels, but I don't think this will help them
| andscoop wrote:
| This comment is so far from my reality that I feel we must
| have different definitions of systemic racism. So I'm
| curious, what does systemic racism mean to you? Or to flip
| your statement around, what would systemic racism look like
| to you if it were to exist?
| [deleted]
| andyxor wrote:
| Don't bring up controversial political points if you
| don't want to hear opposing views.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Well, "critical thinking" needs to supply a bit more than
| you have in this thread. You've spewed anger, and
| ideological talking points, but that's not critical
| thinking.
|
| I guess you did hit "diversity of opinion", though...
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| flyinglizard wrote:
| At some point the "dog whistle" argument refers to signals
| that are so faint that they could just as well be imaginary.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| yeah hear me out though, what if it's true and they're trying
| to get votes by making people's lives better
| [deleted]
| umvi wrote:
| Reminds me of the Pixar movie "Soul" (which is very good)
| packetslave wrote:
| There's an outstanding featurette on Disney+ about "Soul" (part
| of the "Inside Pixar" series, I think) where Kemp Powers, the
| co-director and screenwriter talks specifically about adding
| the barbershop scene(s) because it's such an important part of
| the African-American culture.
| bitwize wrote:
| The barbershop scenes from _Soul_ were one of the things that
| made me think they were trying to make an authentic,
| specifically black movie that nevertheless had universal
| resonance (and they succeeded).
| kmill wrote:
| This reminds me how a chauffeur working for Pixar picked up
| on what they were up to early in production:
| https://www.npr.org/2021/03/27/981553332/not-my-job-we-
| quiz-...
| motohagiography wrote:
| Viewing masculine gatherings and mentoring relationships through
| the lens of "therapy," is patronizing and another example of
| filtering culture through the narrative of powerlessness. Here's
| another take. Most people who say they want you to talk about
| your feelings are predators looking for angry and vulnerable
| young people who they can manipulate with sympathy and groom for
| other pipelines and agendas. The barber shops represent a barrier
| to those people because heterosexual men typically don't relate
| well to the sort of enablers who prey on young men, and those
| personalities cannot navigate masculine environments well.
|
| It's useful to ask whether people who say they are operating on
| the pretext of "healing," and "trauma," are really just morbidly
| attracted to weakness and vulnerability, and if so, why. These
| barbershops are places created by black men as a place to gather
| and have some community, and the reasons for a CNN reporter to
| pay them any attention at all should be treated with suspicion.
| Journalists aren't part of the communities they cover, they are
| scavengers and mainly a nuissance to what they perceive to be
| power, so if you start seeing them, it's probably because there
| is something nearby whose vulnerability or weakness has made it a
| target to co-opt into their narrative. Those barber shops are
| community treasures, and I'd wonder whether they benefit from
| having someone else co-opt their story and re-tell it on their
| behalf.
| whymauri wrote:
| >Most people who say they want you to talk about your feelings
| are predators looking for angry and vulnerable young people who
| they can manipulate with sympathy and groom for other pipelines
| and agendas.
|
| I'm not really sure what this means... are you lumping in
| licensed therapists and social workers in here? Seems unfair to
| me, IMO.
|
| I guess just a little clarification would be useful, not trying
| to tear down your view or anything. I'm equally skeptic of
| journalists from big orgs like CNN coming into these spaces.
| motohagiography wrote:
| The examples I was thinking of came from growing up in a city
| where there is a layer of social workers, teachers,
| "educators," and even therapists who encourage young men to
| blame their problems on society and an oppression narrative
| instead of equipping them with the tools to develop
| constructive masculine friendships with boundaries. There are
| real systemic social issues that men who are american and
| black must face, but the article reframing normal
| relationships as therapy is precisely the kind of framing
| that harms male friendships.
|
| Maybe this coalition is doing good work, but anyone who leads
| with problematizing men talking about their feelings earns
| very reasonable suspicion, imo. The main reason I see men
| having trouble connecting is because they haven't spent
| enough time around another men to learn the normal cues and
| boundaries. Setting up their friendships in yet another
| relationship that treats them like problem children isn't
| going to help them.
| mrxd wrote:
| I think you are right that many therapists expect their clients
| to adopt a position of helplessness and submission, and label
| them as uncooperative if they don't. We constantly hear about
| the stigma among men against going to therapy, but no
| acknowledgment that men's approach to emotions is influenced by
| the fact that men are the main breadwinners in most households.
| The typical stoic male approach to emotions isn't just
| arbitrary "male culture", but a product of the fact that if you
| as a man can't get out of bed in the morning, people go hungry.
|
| A second, related issue is that the culture of therapy since
| Freud is heavily influenced by romanticism, a 19th century
| social and aesthetic movement that prioritized sentimentality
| and emotion as the source of individual authenticity and
| creativity. Being in touch with your emotions can be valuable
| for certain kinds of artistic expression, but in many circles
| those ideals has become so powerful, they're synonymous with
| mental health. It shouldn't come as a surprise that the values
| of the artistic class don't find traction among working class.
| [deleted]
| GavinMcG wrote:
| The idea that abusers "cannot navigate masculine environments
| well" is absurd, ignores the fact that much abuse has taken
| place in masculine environments throughout history, and
| imagines that abusers somehow give themselves away by not
| presenting as traditionally masculine. Where are you getting
| this?
| exolymph wrote:
| He's not talking about all abusers, but a particular type.
| motohagiography wrote:
| Abuse, e.g. sadism, opportunism, deception are all
| definitions of unmasculine behaviours. There are men who
| behave in unmasculine ways, and I'd reassert they usually
| disqualify themselves from deeper friendship with men who
| don't. Among men, I would also say that negative traits are
| necessarily also unmasculine because they are usually
| immoderate instances of other qualities.
|
| Of course, this is a practitioners view which perhaps does
| not reconcile itself to theory.
| nick__m wrote:
| You listed traits correlated with being on the dark triads
| spectrum. These personality traits have almost nothing to
| with sexual identity.
| lemmsjid wrote:
| I'm having trouble following you. The behaviors you
| describe above are neither 'unmasculine' or 'unfeminine'.
| They are behaviors that can be evidenced across the gender
| spectrum.
| minikites wrote:
| >Systemic racism has created a unique need for support in the
| Black community, yet national data shows many African American
| communities are woefully under-resourced and underrepresented in
| behavioral health care. The past year has exacerbated these
| challenges. The pandemic has disproportionately affected African
| Americans, and the repeated instances of racial injustice and
| police brutality have led to an increased need for mental health
| services in the Black community.
|
| I'm glad this avenue is available and I'm glad this work is being
| done, but it's just one step towards making a more just and
| equitable society. Initiatives like this should be used as a
| bridge towards real and meaningful change in improving
| underserved communities affected by the legacies of slavery and
| current systemic racism.
| wisethrowaway wrote:
| Looking forward to the comment that reads "after seeing all these
| HORRIBLE comments it shows we still need a lot of work to do to
| educate ourselves about race"
| [deleted]
| ceilingcorner wrote:
| This used to be the case for most communities in America, before
| we decided that externalizing and professionalizing _everything_
| was the "economically efficient" solution. If you had a problem,
| you'd talk to the elder folks in your community and see what they
| thought about it. Now we barely know our neighbors and our
| community elders are shipped off to special-purpose holding
| facilities.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| I don't know, the confidentiality of a professional therapist
| is huge. Plus a lot of the elders I know would advise you to
| deal with depression by sucking it up. Or try to pray the gay
| away.
| kzrdude wrote:
| Now a professional therapist might not want to tell you to do
| anything at all. The ones I've met have been very passive.
| They listen, it's great, but they don't point in any
| direction.
| leetcrew wrote:
| depends on the therapist and your situation. lots of
| difficult decisions in life come down to what you
| personally value. the therapist can talk it through with
| you, but they can't decide your values for you. on the
| other hand, if you're depressed and spend most of your time
| in bed, the therapist might strongly recommend that you try
| going outside more.
| bsanr2 wrote:
| It's give and take. Everyone knowing your problems can make
| you a target for persecution, but it also makes it more
| difficult for you to get involved in things that your
| community disapproves of (again, sometimes this is bad, but
| sometimes it's good).
|
| The loss of meatspace community can mean falling into a
| counterculture that is, ironically, at once met with
| suspicion by the mainstream, but also better at helping
| members manage difficulties and better at enforcing certain
| nominally-embraced but practically-ignored moral standards.
| For example, late-century LGBT communities (who encouraged
| unconditional love for one's neighbors better, them or your
| local ministry?).
| neartheplain wrote:
| >the confidentiality of a professional therapist is huge
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_Confessional_and_t.
| ..
| tenpies wrote:
| Should add that unlike any professional oath or body,
| Catholic priests will literally die before breaking the
| Confessional Seal. They will never follow any government or
| politician order to break it, and even the Pope himself
| cannot order them to do so. Many have gone to jail or been
| martyred keeping the Seal (as listed a bit lower in the
| same article).
| msla wrote:
| OK, but you're still back to "pray the gay away" if you go
| to a priest, at least through most of human history.
| recursive wrote:
| There are plenty of issues people have that aren't
| related to being gay. Most of them, I'd guess. That
| doesn't help if that's _your_ issue, but it also doesn 't
| mean the entire practice is useless.
| mistermann wrote:
| Out of curiosity (because of the topic): do you consider
| this to be an an evidence based belief (taking into
| consideration the comprehensive nature of it)?
| dangus wrote:
| This strikes me as rose-tinted nostalgia, along with straight
| up misinformation/weasel words. "Elders are shipped off to
| special-purpose holding facilities?" Really?
|
| That's just not a good-faith statement.
|
| Younger people meet friends through work and school. Some of
| them - gasp - even know their neighbors!
|
| But let's be clear here: for even very close friends it's often
| not preferable to burden them with my deepest chronic mental
| issues. They aren't professionals and they don't know how to
| approach those problems.
|
| On top of that, there are negatives to that "village" system.
| Namely, peer pressure, shunning, gossip, etc. Sure, I want to
| confide in my family and friends, but there's a line I won't
| cross where a skilled, neutral, confidential party is the
| better choice.
|
| I see the professionalization of mental health help to be an
| overall good thing. If I don't trust my neighbor to help fix
| the engine control unit in my car why would I trust my neighbor
| to help me sort out complex mental health issues and find
| management tools and medication?
|
| I'd guess that most of my family or neighbors' or friends'
| mental health advice is clinically, verifiably
| wrong/damaging/counterproductive.
| ilamont wrote:
| Unfortunately, the trusted person in many communities could
| sometimes make things far, far worse. In my community there
| were a handful of priests and teachers at a local private
| school who abused children entrusted to their care.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| Can priests get married yet or does the Catholic church still
| want sexual abuse to continue?
| tartoran wrote:
| Yes. Let's hope it makes a comeback. The current direction is
| unsustainable..
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I think that was just a natural progression brought on by the
| advances in psychology/psychiatry. Similar to how we've decided
| trust people with mental health issues to take their meds while
| participating in society, instead of just locking them away in
| an institution like we used to. Plus the other good points that
| people have brought up, like anonymity and generally sound,
| unbiased advice.
| wobbly_bush wrote:
| A question on the article title from someone who is not aware of
| the latest words to use w.r.t. race - why is it "Black barbers"
| but "African American men"? Why aren't both "black" or both
| "African American"?
| dang wrote:
| Questions like that can be interesting but unfortunately there
| is no way that a comment like this will lead to interesting
| responses--just flames from users who, for whatever reason,
| have other, stronger feelings than curiosity right now.
| Therefore it's best, as the site guidelines ask, to " _Eschew
| flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents._
| "
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| jimkleiber wrote:
| Yes, Lorenzo! I remember talking to my friend Lorenzo back in
| 2013-14 when he was just starting this. So proud to finally see
| someone I know as the top story on HN :-)
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| No mention of Coming to America, where this happens?
|
| That resonated with white kids in suburban america too (i'm one)
| who had the same experience, with friends' grandfathers the
| longtime town barbers. My grandfathers had both died when i was
| tiny, so it was the only grandfather situation i had recurringly,
| and it wasn't just white or just black, btw.
|
| it's just a healthy thing, so good seeing it still goes on!
| bsedlm wrote:
| They might not be therapists, but they are filling a similar role
| as therapy.
|
| Sometimes people just need to vent towards an 'objective'
| (external) listener who will provide feedback of some sort.
| kamfc wrote:
| Counselors are more like it. Or a stranger at the bar you can
| vent to. Therapists do more from my personal experience.
| kelvin0 wrote:
| I think being able to talk about issues in your life and have an
| attentive ear is 50% therapy right there. Too many men keep
| things to themselves for too long.
|
| Once they feel cornered, their only perceived course of action is
| usually anger and violence in extreme cases.
| randomopining wrote:
| Why do people need to meld their ego with some nebulous
| "classification"? Like yo I'm black. Yo I'm white. Yo I'm asian.
|
| In reality, all humans are a continuous spectrum based off of
| groups of people that evolved in certain conditions over
| thousands of years.
|
| What does a "white" person from Ireland have in common with a
| "white" person from the Caucuses?
|
| What does a "black" person from Sierra Leone have in common with
| a "black" person from the deserts in the northeast of Africa?
|
| Why does the media make us segregate ego formation based off of
| these shallow descriptors? Black white etc.
| [deleted]
| antihero wrote:
| Because membership of a group, especially for marginalised and
| oppressed peoples, is a way to have shared strength and be able
| to relate to others' experiences and protect each other. Which
| is an incredibly powerful and necessary until the world is
| significantly fairer.
|
| Also in the case of barbers, it is plainly obvious: Experience
| working with hair of a certain type.
| randomopining wrote:
| What I'm saying is that the people in this "group" may have
| almost nothing in common at all, except for having a darker
| shade of skin color.
|
| Aka get rid of the simple descriptors of "white" "black" etc
| since they mean very little or nothing at all.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| these descriptions mean a lot when they determine how
| you're treated by society
| minikites wrote:
| >may have almost nothing in common at all, except for
| having a darker shade of skin color
|
| That darker shade causes them to be mistreated in similar
| ways by American society.
| mosseater wrote:
| Well, in terms of this article, we're talking about black
| barbers. This isn't a racism thing. There is a culture
| associated with black barbers. I was a white kid, I grew up in
| the hood. I would hang out with my friends while they got their
| haircut. Racism didn't keep me from getting my haircut there,
| the literal texture and makeup of my hair did. They
| specialized. And in black culture, the barber shop is one of
| the main socialization spots. It's a place demanding similar
| levels of respect as going to church, minus the dress code.
| It's a place, outside of so many other places in this white
| dominated world, where they can be themselves. It's a place
| "for them and by them". They can be themselves, the
| subconscious relaxes, they don't have to worry about someone
| being a bigot towards them.
|
| Like it or not, black culture is a thing. Just like white
| culture is a thing. No one has to feel bad about it. Color is
| beautiful. The whole "I don't see color" concept is
| disingenuous to the human experience.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| I don't think the media is the only thing that determines
| whether we form racial or any other social identity categories.
|
| I think racial categories are identities imposed by us and by
| others. By us because sometimes, especially when we're in
| groups of people who don't look like us, we may tend to stick
| closer to people who do. By others, when they see someone who
| looks different, they often label us with a term separating us
| from their group.
|
| I agree we're all a meld and deeply human, with a lot in
| common, and I also think we tend to form social groups that
| focus on how we are different from others and how others are
| different from us.
| adolph wrote:
| > Why does the media make us segregate ego formation based off
| of these shallow descriptors? Black white etc.
|
| _the basic scenario is that we've had a years-long moral panic
| in which elite white tastemakers adopted the political posture
| of radical Black academics out of purely competitive social
| impulses, trying on a ready-made political eschatology that
| blames the worlds ills on whiteness and men and yet somehow
| leaves space for an army of good white people and good men to
| cluck their tongue about it all._
|
| https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/who-tells-them-what-the...
| sergiomattei wrote:
| A shared set of experiences. I'm Latino, and when I visit the
| United States I get along well with other Latino folk because
| we share a set of experiences we can relate to.
|
| We probably grew up in different places but there's a
| background we have in common, like our language.
|
| It's called culture.
| randomopining wrote:
| That's my point. You share language, el mundo espanol, etc.
|
| That's true cultural linkage.
|
| Whereas a "white" person from Ireland and a "white" person
| from Ukraine have very very little in common.
|
| A "black" person from South Africa and a "black" person from
| Colombia have very very little in common.
|
| And yet these are the main descriptors used in pop culture,
| Instagram, the media... and it's silly.
| lemmsjid wrote:
| By focusing on shared experience of cultural context or
| upbringing, you're ignoring the shared experience of how
| people are treated by others. People do have things in
| common based on skin color. For example, my sister is
| Filipina. She lives in a white dominated area which has a
| lot of xenophobia about Mexican immigrants. She has
| experienced several events where she gets mistaken as
| Mexican, simply by her skin color and is threatened and/or
| told to go back to Mexico, sometimes quite angrily. These
| experiences are quite traumatic. The typical person doesn't
| make a close study of other cultures, so if they're
| actively racist/xenophobic/what-have-you, they don't look
| to the nuances of their target's background before they
| lash out. Being ANY minority, especially a visually
| identifiable minority, creates a shared experience
| regardless of peoples' actual backgrounds. This causes
| communities and identities to form as people group around
| shared experiences.
|
| Yes, most ways of categorizing people and identities are
| arbitrary and diffuse, but in the end its people bonding
| over shared context and experiences, real or illusory, and
| I'd be hard pressed to call it silly, any more than other
| human behaviors that don't follow, I dunno, strict logic.
| randomopining wrote:
| I agree with what you said. Good comment.
|
| My only issue is the level at which that single one-word
| descriptor is used above all others. So much focus is
| placed on "black" "white" etc... that it devalues the
| nuance of other descriptors. Like "immigrant", "rich",
| "poor", "college-educated" etc.
| olleromam91 wrote:
| The focus is there because race has been the descriptor
| of choice for generations to quickly, lazily and cruelly
| discriminate against minority groups, and the lasting
| effects haven't even been fully understood yet, let alone
| remedied to the point where we can just ignore what has
| and is still happening because of someone's skin color.
| lemmsjid wrote:
| I believe fundamentally people are ill equipped to deal
| with this kind of complexity. When labeling people,
| rather than using a small set of discrete terms, it's
| closer to a probabilistic clustering problem where each
| individual is represented by a high dimensional vector
| where the clusters are generated on the fly and per-use,
| parameterized by time and space and the observer's
| viewpoint.
|
| This complex representation is what the area of academia
| that studies identity has come to call intersectionality.
| I.e. being black and gay is a particular experience that
| is also modified by the person's other demographics.
|
| But imagine translating that level of complexity to
| national discourse (i.e. a CNN article). Doing so leads
| to two simplifying approaches: one is to attempt to
| simplify by using broad categorizing terms ('black',
| 'white', etc); the other is to attempt to reject those
| terms by not using them. You're describing problems with
| the first approach. The problems with the second approach
| are that it can sweep actual experiences under the rug.
| For example, while 'black' is an incredibly broad term,
| that is in fact how a large portion of the population
| labels another large portion of the population,
| irrespective of their background, which does create a
| shared black experience that can and should be talked
| about, but then always at the risk of ignoring other
| labels that also make sense in context, such as wealth,
| education, etc.
|
| I don't know a rhetorical way out of this situation. This
| is why academic texts (by that I mean authors who are
| attempting to tackle the subject without any undue
| attempts to simplify) dealing with the subject can become
| so twisted and hard to read, because actually describing
| the context of an individual person can lead to a per-
| person book-level explication of their experiences that
| also includes a not-insubstantial explication of the
| author's experiences.
|
| This is a problem with language. Every time I'm
| personally in a situation that ends up getting written
| about in the media, a situation where I'm sufficiently
| involved to understand the nuances of what happened, the
| article feels like a comic book simplification and
| reflection of what happened. But then did I experience
| that event in the same way that other participants did?
| No. That's the subject matter tackled, for example, in
| Roshomon. An 'event' in history is a generalization and
| narrativization of something that will be probably be
| interpreted very differently by the actual participants
| involved.
|
| The problem with exercises like what I just wrote is to
| use the lack of conclusive and easy categorization to
| justify inaction or disengagement, i.e. "There is no
| black identity, let's just treat everyone as though
| they're the same race." That flies in the face of a great
| deal of lived experience. Especially because a white
| person in America can afford to act that way, but a black
| person cannot.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| There's a reason for that.
|
| Two people walk into a random corner store. One is a
| poor, immigrant person who happens to be white. The other
| is a rich, college-educated citizen who happens to be
| black.
|
| Guess which one most shop owners are gonna be keeping an
| eye on.
|
| I am a white father of black children. My hometown has a
| notorious speed trap that every person in the community
| knows snares black motorists. If my children were white,
| I wouldn't even have to mention it except in passing. But
| they aren't, and if they ever drive around in that town
| when they are older, I will have to specifically point
| out to them where the speed trap is to keep them safe
| from the people who are supposed to be there to protect
| them.
|
| The one-word descriptor IS the most important one for
| dealing with strangers and law enforcement in the US
| whether anyone likes it or not. It's unfortunate and
| unfair, but unfairness and misfortune never stopped the
| world from turning.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| What's silly is your characterization of these barber
| shops.
|
| We're talking about black American males who are local to
| their barbers and they use the time to talk about the
| issues that affect them.
|
| There are literally movies (Coming to America, the
| Barbershop) and TV shows (The Shop: Uninterrupted) which
| directly feature these concepts. So if they're as
| unimportant and silly as you suggest, then why are they so
| prominent?
|
| Could it possibly be because these people find the
| experience important in a way that you've missed?
| sergiomattei wrote:
| Huh, that's interesting. Although to be fair I haven't seen
| these descriptors used outside of the United States.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| They may share the experience of being called "black" by
| people around them. Maybe not in their respective
| countries, as racial categories tend to change a lot based
| on society, however maybe if they were to meet in the same
| place. For example, many of my East African friends didn't
| realize they were "black" until they came to the US.
| Similarly, I felt more "white" when I was living in
| Tanzania as there were very few people who shared my skin
| tone, hair style, eye color, etc. So while I may not have
| had the same language as a Danish person in Tanzania, we
| shared a lot more physically than I did with some of the
| local Tanzanians and were often categorized the same by
| them anyways.
| isoskeles wrote:
| Funny, I don't get along with many other Latinos despite
| being one. I think it's this attitude that I'm supposed to
| speak the language and act a certain way as part of the
| "culture."
| sergiomattei wrote:
| Well, everyone's different. I find it much easier to relate
| to others that come from a similar culture to mine. We
| don't need to speak the language, but talking about stuff
| like our upbringing or whatever helps bond.
|
| I personally wouldn't care if you acted a certain way, my
| definition of a Latino isn't that stereotypical.
| nostromo wrote:
| You're proving his or her point.
|
| Latinos can be white, black, native, or anything else. You
| share a culture with them regardless of skin color.
|
| People in the US forget that most Latinos are white. There
| are several South American countries that are more white than
| the US.
|
| I have a friend with a European name that appears European
| but emigrated with his parents from Argentina at a young age.
| He told me he doesn't identify as Latino in the US despite
| being Latino because he suspects that he's being judged as an
| imposter.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > People in the US forget that most Latinos are indeed
| white
|
| No, people forget that "race" is a social construct, not a
| biological fact, and that as socially constructed in the
| US, Latinos are generally nonwhite, despite the fact that
| (in an attempt to protect the illusion of race as a genuine
| biological trait) the US government explicitly created the
| notionally orthogonal "ethnicity" axis with only two values
| ("Hispanic/Latino" and "Not Hispanic/Latino") for
| government reporting.
|
| "White" is a fluid concept that is socially constructed
| differently in different societies, even--especially--by
| pro-White racists in each society.
| runeblaze wrote:
| While it is true that there is much diversity within each
| minority group, it is also true that the society often imposes
| discrimination solely based on one's skin color, and we can't
| just ignore society. I also think that this article is really
| mainly talking about the descendants of the enslaved people,
| which form the majority of US's black population, and is
| commonly referred to as the Black community.
| Spivak wrote:
| Because you're being willfully obtuse of the authors meaning to
| make a point about semantics.
|
| Context and intersectionality (or PIE if you want a more nerdy
| less loaded term) matters here. White and black have specific
| meanings, a shared cultural history, and face similar issues
| and struggles _in the US_. And there 's more to a person than
| just their "race" despite race being a particularly "loud"
| (i.e. strong predictor) part of a person's identity which is
| why you have to take into account its interactions and how it
| melds with all the other aspects of their identity to get a
| complete picture of a person.
| randomopining wrote:
| Actually, not at all.
|
| What does a "white" working class Italian who's parents came
| over in the 50's have in common with a "white" old money
| millionaire guy who's German ancestors came over in the mid
| 1800's?
|
| What does a "black" kid who went to a private school, then
| Ivy League, and now works at a Private Equity fund in NYC
| (this is my actual friend) have in common with a "black" kid
| growing up in Detroit?
|
| The "white" and "black" descriptors of all of these people
| have little correlation with their daily lives... and yet
| it's the single adjective that media/Instagram etc speak the
| loudest about and make it into this huge thing.
|
| Really the biggest separator in our society is socioeconomic
| wealth. And that should be the main descriptor.
| truffdog wrote:
| You don't get to opt out of the primary ethnic conflict of
| your society. If you get read as white and treated as white
| then you are white. No one is going to ask you to pronounce
| parsley when the time comes.
| Spivak wrote:
| Nothing! You're literally describing intersectionality.
| Other than you don't like the terms black and white for
| some reason as things that are part of people's lives we're
| saying the exact same thing.
|
| A black kid who grows up rich and goes to an Ivy League
| school still will still have the conversation with their
| parents about being black to explain why the other kids
| treat them differently or why they get stares in
| convenience stores.
|
| Class has more of an effect on your day-to-day life than
| race. Sure. Fine. But your race is still a part of who you
| are and affects how you're treated at all incomes which is
| the point. Like Jesus, Obama is rich AF and was the most
| powerful man on earth and his blackness was front and
| center his whole political career. There is no way a white
| political figure would have to deal with his haters posting
| bad photoshops of him in tribal garb where the whole thing
| is that he's a scary foreign African. They might have to
| deal with _other bullshit_ but not that which is the point.
| dang wrote:
| Personal attacks and name-calling are not allowed here. They
| only make things worse. Please make your substantive points
| without stooping to that.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| x86_64Ubuntu wrote:
| Such a comment like the one you are responding to comes
| around like clockwork on HN whenever "black" is mentioned.
| imbnwa wrote:
| Yeah, let's not forget the thinly veiled uproar in the
| "Netflix for Black People" thread[0]
|
| [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28087309
| dang wrote:
| That's to be expected from any large, open, anonymous
| internet forum and is why the site guidelines say this:
|
| " _Don 't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them
| instead._"
|
| a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls. If people didn't feed
| it, it wouldn't grow. Therefore the problem is entirely a
| co-creation.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| Spivak wrote:
| I always feel weird about flagging comments.
| dang wrote:
| Ok, but please don't fuel flamewars as an alternative.
| x86_64Ubuntu wrote:
| It's understood from the context that the ethnic group of
| concern in the article are African-Americans.
| [deleted]
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| > Why does the media make us segregate ego formation based off
| of these shallow descriptors? Black white etc.
|
| Because it mases us fight eachother, and not the ones that we
| should be fighting.
| booleandilemma wrote:
| Divide and conquer.
| abc_lisper wrote:
| It is like the ship of Theseus. Aggregates exist because that's
| how we abstract, even though calling it identity would be
| wrong. I don't know what a good solution is.
| refenestrator wrote:
| Ideally we could unmoor it from the arbitrary 100 year old
| census categories. Yeah, you have to draw arbitrary lines
| somewhere but our current set is really dumb.
| [deleted]
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| " What does a "black" person from Sierra Leone have in common
| with a "black" person from the deserts in the northeast of
| Africa?"
|
| They face the same discrimination in America and in that they
| find companionship
| scarmig wrote:
| Contemporary African immigrants significantly outperform
| those descended from slaves. Moreover, they have higher
| educational attainment, household incomes, and professional
| success than American white populations. Nigerian immigrants
| even outperform Chinese and Indian immigrants.
| [deleted]
| retrac wrote:
| White British immigrants to Canada today, outperform white
| Canadians of British descent whose ancestors freely moved
| there in the 19th century, as do their children.
|
| I suspect for the same reason that causes what you've
| noted. People who emigrate as skilled immigrants
| internationally are not average people. In both cases we're
| seeing the cream of the crop (intentionally selected for by
| the immigration system), educated and driven, often with
| some wealth established already. And then comparing them to
| a large population of locals who have varied circumstances
| determined by local history, not the current immigration
| criteria.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| And in the case of barbers - they have the same type of
| hair.. Why is this confusing for HNers?
| minikites wrote:
| I can think of at least two possibilities: a
| privileged/sheltered upbringing or an intentional mis-
| framing of the issue to make something reasonable seem
| unreasonable.
| x86_64Ubuntu wrote:
| Nothing is confusing to HNers, they are just expressing
| baseline racial anxiety and resentment.
| randomopining wrote:
| I don't think anybody is confused about that. It's obvious.
| And nobody was discussing the barbers on this sub-thread.
| [deleted]
| randomopining wrote:
| So a person from Sierra Leone who's never stepped foot in the
| United States would thus never have experienced this
| "discrimination" and thus are not part of the "black" group?
|
| Your argument makes no sense.
| clwswrds wrote:
| You realize you started this with a weird tangent, right,
| and that the article concerns African-Americans?
| neither_color wrote:
| That would be verifiable by looking at the economic and
| educational outcomes of African and Caribbean immigrants in
| comparison to ADOS. If discrimination is all there is to it
| then their outcomes should be the same. Spoiler alert: It's
| not the same.
|
| https://www.ft.com/content/ca39b445-442a-4845-a07c-0f5dae5f3.
| ..
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U.
| ..
|
| Ghanian and Nigerian Americans make above the median white
| household income. Barbadian, Trinidadian, Jamaican, and
| Haitian Americans all make above the median African American
| household income. Mexican Americans score below African
| Americans, but above Puerto Ricans. Dominicans are dead last.
| Would you conclude, based on the data, that Hispanics face
| WORSE discrimination than blacks, even when they're born
| citizens like Puerto Ricans? Could this be a reason that the
| left is bleeding hispanic voters, when they're constantly
| being fed a racial narrative that's incongruent with their
| day-to-day experience and needs? When a Mexican American who
| may have a black boss hears on TV that blacks have it worse
| than anybody else do you think they might start losing a bit
| of trust in the experts?
|
| Sadly necessary disclaimer: I'm not black or white I'm just
| calling it as I see it.
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| Selection bias: immigrating to the US from a far away
| country is easier if you're educated and rich. Doesn't mean
| you're treated any better once you get here.
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| How do you explain the people that arrived in the United
| States through asylum? I wouldn't say that the Chinese
| immigrants who immigrated to the US during the Cultural
| Revolution in '70s or the swell in Indian and African
| diaspora in the '90s were rich. Most left everything they
| had behind including family members and had to start from
| the bottom rung. And yet, in one or two generations,
| they're sons and daughters are the ones populating
| Stanford and Silicon Valley.
| scarmig wrote:
| So your prediction would be that African immigrants would
| underperform other immigrant groups originating from far
| away countries, owing to racism once they land here?
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| No, my prediction is that regardless of what country
| someone came from, many people in the US will only see
| them as Black and theyll treat them differently for it.
| scarmig wrote:
| But, immigrants from Thailand are no less well-off than
| immigrants from Nigeria. If Nigerian immigrants face
| discrimination because many people will only see them as
| black, does that mean Thai immigrants will outperform
| them? Or do Thai people face an equal amount of racism
| targeting them?
| umvi wrote:
| > They face the same discrimination in America and in that
| they find companionship
|
| Do they, though? I think African Americans and African
| immigrants face _very_ different problems in America. My next
| door neighbors on one side are from Ghana, my next door
| neighbors on the other side are African Americans. They have
| _very_ different issues that they deal with and their
| lifestyles couldn 't be more different.
|
| My Ghana neighbors:
|
| - Struggle with things like renewing work visas, applying for
| citizenship, immigration-related issues
|
| - Buy/cook all their food from raw ingredients from African
| grocery stores
|
| - 2 parent household
|
| - Pay their own rent
|
| My African American neighbors:
|
| - struggle with substance abuse, truancy, obesity,
| unemployment
|
| - Eat McDonalds/junk food/drink astronomical quantities of
| soda pop daily
|
| - Single parent household
|
| - Rely on the state for rent (HOC)
|
| These are not isolated incidents - out of my neighborhood
| block here in Montgomery County, MD, there are multiple
| points of data that point to this segregation of lifestyles
| between African and African American. I see the police _all
| the time_ at my African American neighbors ' house (at least
| 3-4 times per year), whether it be because one of the teens
| was caught shoplifting, or they were making tons of noise in
| the middle of the night, or because of a domestic
| confrontation turning violent, etc. I've never seen the
| police once at my Ghana neighbors' house.
| truckerbill wrote:
| That's what happens when you enslave a portion of your
| population, then begrudingly free them but then hold it
| against them for multiple generations.
|
| That doesn't mean both groups aren't discriminated against.
| pxc wrote:
| There are selection biases when it comes to immigration to
| the first world that select for things like emphasis on
| high educational attainment/striver mentality, plus common
| cultural differences we see with immigrants from all over
| with respect to the relative strictness of parenting.
| Recent immigrants from Africa are also not coping with the
| multigenerational trauma of slavery, Jim Crow, &c., in the
| way that black Americans generally are.
|
| None of that means that recent Ghanaian-American immigrant
| families aren't also subject to anti-black racism in the
| United States in a way that is important, potentially
| unifiying, formative for their children who grow up
| experiencing it, etc.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Black hair isn't white hair and black shared experiences in
| America are not white shared experiences in America. Sometimes
| you need to talk and vent without a bunch of resistance from
| outsiders to that experience.
| joncrane wrote:
| This is timely because just yesterday I was watching "Central
| Intelligence" with Kevin Hart and The Rock.
|
| Early in the movie Kevin Hart's wife tries to get him to go to
| therapy and he says 'Black people don't go to therapy. They go to
| barbershops to talk about their problems. And then they watch
| "Barbershop."'
|
| I think therapy can be useful for people of all races, shapes,
| sizes, and genders, and I support all initiatives that encourage
| mental health.
| whatshisface wrote:
| If HN can look past the usual tropes, there's something
| interesting here. Lewis is trying to solve a problem a lot of
| other people are trying to solve: how can you have a normal
| community in US culture? Let me list a few solutions and you will
| see why his is better than average.
|
| 1. Religion.
|
| Pros: Going to church has tied communities together for
| millennia, and if you could just find some better pastors, it
| could continue for several millennia more.
|
| Cons: Secularly administering religion like a drug to treat
| social ills is against the precepts of every known religion, due
| to the fact that we'd all expect missionaries to believe what
| they're preaching. People who go around saying "I believe because
| it helps me" but who do not actually believe anything
| notwithstanding, we all know that's not self-consistent.
|
| 2. An amalgamation of historical myths and power structures that
| tie people together on the basis of perceived brotherhood.
|
| Pros: People love being tied together on the basis of perceived
| brotherhood, tribal identity has been around a long time, and
| there is no debating with the idea that it works.
|
| Cons: This is a description of every supremacist organization.
|
| 3. You talk to the guy at the barbershop.
|
| Pros: You like to talk to the guy at the barbershop.
|
| Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut.
|
| None of these options are perfect... but the barbershop plan is
| not that bad.
| klyrs wrote:
| There's also therapy. Way more expensive than a haircut, and
| it's highly stigmatized especially among men. It doesn't
| provide community, per se, but it can help a person work
| through the issues that are making it hard for them to find and
| keep friends.
|
| And, yeah. A barbershop is a decent stand-in.
| hncurious wrote:
| You might argue barbershops are better.
|
| 1. They are cheaper.
|
| 2. You get a haircut.
|
| 3. Community.
|
| 4. They are trained in the real world, and within the
| community they are serving.
|
| 5. The barber's incentives are aligned with yours. If they
| solve your problem, you're still a repeat customer. In the
| case of therapists and chiropractors, they are incentivized
| to manage your problem indefinitely or to find new problems.
| whatshisface wrote:
| In an ideal world there would be a professionalism gradient
| for mental health the same way there is for physical health.
| The physical health gradient starts with yourself (trying to
| eat healthy), passes through your friends casually assisting
| (participating in outdoor activities, discussing food,
| telling you they're staying home because they're sick), then
| hits easily accessible treatments (pharmacy), moves on to
| more difficult treatments (doctor's visit), and then finally
| to ultra-expensive high-risk technological approaches.
|
| In contrast, the mental health picture for isolated urban
| professionals starts with self-regulation, then jumps
| straight to being treated by The System. Therapists catch a
| broad range of problems that don't need all their training
| just by virtue of being the first rung on a ladder that
| starts 20 feet off the ground.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| In an ideal world, people would largely communicate ideas
| face-to-faced and keep text communication to a minimum. The
| average person needs to hear voices that don't originate
| from their own heads. We're creating entire generations of
| narcissists who, because they have the capability to read
| and have been taught that their opinions "are just as good
| as anyone else's" have decided that echo chambers are
| appropriate places to find themselves.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| I really appreciate this comment. What I've seen in my life
| is that if I call it mental health, I probably still see it
| as disjointed as that. If I call it emotional health, it
| seems to open up a much broader spectrum of services. Then
| me calling my friend and talking about how I'm feeling,
| about my stress, confusion, anger, joy, excitement, dreams
| and fears, helps me to process some of those feelings and
| share them more. And it doesn't have to be a friend, it can
| be journaling to myself, or talking to a barber or someone
| on a plane or someone at a bar, or someone via online
| forums. It could even include the physical activity as
| well, as I like to define emotional = mental + physical. So
| going for a run or a swim or throwing a ball with a friend
| can provide avenues for this as well. At least for me, I
| find the term "emotional health" helps me see the gradient
| more.
| whymauri wrote:
| >In contrast, the mental health picture for isolated urban
| professionals starts with self-regulation, then jumps
| straight to being treated by The System.
|
| It's pretty wild how poorly equipped some parts of the
| country are to treat mental health. My younger sister (13)
| suffers from anxiety and depression. She says she just
| needs a therapist to talk to, but every time my parents
| have reached out to local resources covered by insurance
| they all want to immediately destroy her future,
| institutionalize her FULL-TIME in a residential program,
| and pump her full of drugs for the next five years. School
| and college prep? Forget about it.
|
| Like, what the fuck? She just needs an affordable
| therapist... thankfully, I passed on some resources about
| sliding scale therapy and affordable options outside
| Florida Medicaid (Open Path Collective is run by angels,
| IMO). Yeah, she probably will need some medication, but the
| idea that, with only one major incident, a 4.0 GPA gifted
| student with a bright, educated future should essentially
| be orphaned and doped up through adulthood sends shivers
| down my spine.
|
| The options covered by Medicaid are:
|
| 1. No treatment at all, because the system is overloaded,
| likely leading to further decline.
|
| 2. A social and mental nuclear option, certainly leading to
| further trauma and isolation. TBH, it's heartbreaking to me
| to think about how many parents have been duped into
| believing this is the only option (especially with
| affordable remote counseling being a more available option
| now).
|
| Great system. We're lucky I have a well-paying software
| job, otherwise it's like the state wants people to suffer.
| klyrs wrote:
| Absolutely, we've got the same problem in Canada. We
| waste so many resources on treating emergencies, because
| we can't spare a buck to help folks with minor/moderate
| problems. And of course, "universal healthcare" doesn't
| cover mental health, dental or vision -- those are
| privileges for folks with upper-crust jobs.
| neutronicus wrote:
| It's also a giant pain in the ass to even start therapy, at
| least in my city
|
| You look up all the providers who take your insurance, call
| around, all the ones you try are booked up 3 months out...
|
| And all this at a time when small hurdles are enough to stop
| you from doing literally anything
| x86_64Ubuntu wrote:
| One word about the cons of #3, you can absolutely go to a black
| barbershop with no intentions of ever getting your haircut.
| Older black men will sometimes hang out there, or stop by
| through the day on the weekend just to catch up with one
| another.
| hhs wrote:
| > Lewis is trying to solve a problem a lot of other people are
| trying to solve: how can you have a normal community in US
| culture?
|
| Indeed, in sociology this building of community is typically
| called the 'third place' [0].
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
| whymauri wrote:
| Oh wow, this is a great Wiki article -- thank you for
| sharing!
| honkdaddy wrote:
| Do HN folks have a "third place" they go to?
| mindcrime wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of HN'er count a coffee
| shop or something as their "third place." For me, the cafe
| at the Barnes & Noble near my apartment is basically my
| "third place". Well... more like "second place" right now
| due to pandemic induced WFH status, but you get the idea.
| asdff wrote:
| The comment section
| corpdrone2021 wrote:
| Growing up that was always my friendly local game store.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| Someone in my town (~100,000 people, somewhere on the East
| Coast) created a "nerd space" where you could rent video
| game consoles, PC/Macs with pro software, some rudimentary
| woodworking equipment, a board game/CCG store, and
| generally hang out. I thought it would become my third
| place, and for a while it was. I met some awesome people,
| briefly collaborated on a game that went nowhere, taught
| some classes, attended trivia nights, etc. It expanded into
| more buildings and felt like it could become a bedrock of
| the town. Then it slowly started to contract. I think the
| only thing left is the donut shop with a small board game
| collection. The original buildings were demolished in favor
| of apartments. My guess is they couldn't pay the
| skyrocketing rent, and couldn't find a good spot in town
| where people could just sit and theoretically do whatever
| they wanted. Maybe a library less dependent on profit would
| make for a better venue?
| [deleted]
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| 1. Religion: Other pros:
|
| - Highly tailored to cultural nuances. Many immigrant
| communities only have religion as their fallback. I cannot
| overstate how important this is to such communities.
|
| - In some cases, a diverse set of people and backgrounds from
| different points in their life.
|
| - Many religions instill a sense of humility.
|
| Other cons: - By nature ripe for abuse, without checks and
| balances in the structure.
|
| - A lot of work and time/financial commitment by its members.
|
| - In practice, some of the nastiest and most egotistical people
| I've met attend churches.
| ouid wrote:
| This is such a poorly crafted argument that it's hard to
| imagine it's not in bad faith. You listed religion twice! The
| only way this is representative of any kind of "normal" culture
| is if you have defined it that way.
|
| Let's think about a couple more ways that you could go about
| obtaining a community in the US.
|
| leisure: clubs, cafes, live music events, bars, gyms.
| proximity: neighborhood, induced parent communities from child
| communities. functional: PTAs, HOAs, coworkers, colleagues.
|
| etc.
| namlem wrote:
| I disagree that most of your examples are comparable, with
| the exception of gyms and coworkers/colleagues to a degree.
| Getting your hair cut is a qualitatively different type of
| experience. You have to sit still while it's happening, you
| can't just wander off. And there's even a degree of physical
| intimacy involved, even if it's purely professional.
| Likewise, in church you have to sit still, you can't go on
| your phone or leave early without people judging you. I think
| there's a reason why fitness quasi-cults like Crossfit and
| Soul Cycle have emerged, because the same principle is at
| play, social interaction with strangers is baked into the
| process. Sure, there are strangers at bars, concerts, etc.,
| but you don't really have to engage with them and can walk
| away or go on your phone at any time.
| FooBarBizBazz wrote:
| > I disagree that most of your examples are comparable,
| with the exception of gyms and [...]
|
| You mentioned gyms:
|
| tl;dr: Karate dojos are a kind of gym with lots of
| community -- maybe too much!
|
| Original post:
|
| Gyms are an interesting one. Most are relatively anonymous,
| I think. But my (somewhere between first- and second- hand)
| experience of karate dojos was that they are very tight-
| knit, almost cultish (though not entirely in a bad way).
| People's SOs often joined, not really because they were
| interested in karate per-se, but because it was a way to
| spend more time together.
| ceilingcorner wrote:
| These would be comparable examples if religion included
| nothing but the physical building of a
| church/mosque/synagogue.
| [deleted]
| t-writescode wrote:
| As a person in their mid-30s who is having to meet and
| rebuild their friend group, it's fascinating to me how the
| list of places you provide almost entirely are "go with a
| group, don't want to be bothered" places.
|
| The hunt for the Third Place, especially among those that are
| "not 20" is very real and comparatively difficult.
|
| I happen to have met a smallish group of people that I can
| start to grow as a community with that I actually want to,
| but this is a recent development and I'm grateful to the
| people that found me.
| rory wrote:
| There have to be more options than that.
|
| A country club?
|
| A service org like Rotary / Lion's Club?
|
| I'm not sure what's out there, but there must options other
| than Jihad, Kristallnacht, or barber shop.
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| Freemasonry. And for a near-exclusively African-American
| patronage, there are Prince Hall Freemason lodges[1]. While
| most Masonic lodges have a "belief in a Supreme Being"
| requirement, lodge activities are more secular and grounded
| in their application.
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hall_Freemasonry
| jatone wrote:
| thankfully I believe I am a supreme being, so that isn't an
| issue!
| neutronicus wrote:
| The Prince Hall lodge by my house was a COVID vaccination
| center for a bit
| shuntress wrote:
| Horse racing tracks.
| savanaly wrote:
| Gaming both tabletop and video abounds with groups of
| different varieties, commitments, sizes. The video gaming
| side can tend towards the superficial or toxic not as a rule
| but as a tendency, due to access and anonymity. But a good
| board gaming/RPG group is hard to beat as a third place.
| jedimastert wrote:
| Country clubs are specifically made as exclusionary spaces
| for wealthy, almost always white, people.
| asdff wrote:
| There are also public golf clubs too. The local municipal
| one by me is $125 a year and there are tournaments twice a
| month I believe
| rory wrote:
| That fits the stereotype in my head, but I'm not sure what
| you're getting at. Just that they're bad?
| jedimastert wrote:
| No, I'm saying that black communities are
| disproportionately affected by poverty. Simply put,
| country clubs are not an option for the vast majority of
| Black Americans, not to mention the overt racism.
| rory wrote:
| Ah got it, makes sense. I guess I was just responding to
| "how can you have a normal community in US culture?" in
| abstract, not in regards to the people in the article.
| cehrlich wrote:
| That they're not a valid option for a large percentage of
| the population.
| rory wrote:
| That's true, but hanging out at a Black Barber shop is
| also not a realistic option for a large percentage of the
| population.
| [deleted]
| whymauri wrote:
| You can bond with people over similar ethnic or life
| backgrounds without devolving into supremacy... people do this
| all the time around the world. Obviously, there need to be
| reasonable limits around the 'tribal identity' that preclude
| supremacist behavior, but it's certainly a valid way to build
| relationships and feel supported.
| andruby wrote:
| Option 3 is actually the plot of an episode of the medical
| drama series "New Amsterdam". The main character of the show is
| the director of a fiction NYC public hospital. In episode 4 of
| season 2 he tries to encourage black men to get medical
| checkups. He choses to teach the barbers how to take blood
| pressure and prescribe some basic meds. The episode centers
| around the mistrust that black people in the US have of public
| healthcare, and how barbers are a natural social center for
| that community.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Amsterdam_(2018_TV_series)...
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Once upon a time, some barbers had dual jobs: cutting hair
| and taking care of common medical conditions. The first
| modern surgeon was a barber by trade. The red and white of
| barber poles represent blood and bandages, after all.
| jedimastert wrote:
| > Cons: You can't go if you don't have the money for a haircut.
|
| This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on
| purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc
| community centers, where black men can just go and be among
| other black men. Gatherings of black men were (and are) seen as
| suspicious or "gang-related", but if there's a large gathering
| of black men at a barbershop, they're all just there to get a
| haircut, and everyone needs a haircut.
|
| It's not expected of people to get a haircut.
| rendall wrote:
| Has nobody seen Luke Cage? The entire plot revolves around a
| Harlem barbershop.
| SilasX wrote:
| No need to criticize people for not having seen it, but
| yes, good example. Also features into _Coming to America_
| and its sequel.
| rendall wrote:
| I wasn't criticizing. Just letting people who have not
| know they're missing out!
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on
| purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc
| community centers, where black men can just go and be among
| other black men
|
| Originally, it may have been a kinda-sorta-secret, but given
| the prominent role that barbershop-as-Black-social-nexus has
| played in popular media portrayals of Black American
| communities targeting general (not just Black) audiences for
| the last several decades, that's hardly the case any more.
| jedimastert wrote:
| I think the ignorance in these comments say otherwise...
| mc32 wrote:
| There were a couple of movies around this trope. Black TV
| also has this trope (kind of like how other comedies
| might insert a bar(tender) scene).
|
| People are unaware of lots of things. Ask, who are your
| two senators. You'd be surprised in today's day and age
| of constant media barrage, but many people can't answer.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > There were a couple of movies around this trope.
|
| It's even referenced in a _Disney (Pixar Animation
| Studios)_ film ( _Soul_ , where the main character's
| history of arms-length interactions in that context as a
| violation of social norms is called out.)
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Oh, I think there is still some ignorance, I just don't
| think what remains is really much attributable to the
| "sort of on purpose" concealment by the community as to
| disinterest in the lifestyle of other subcultures by
| people outside.
| gowld wrote:
| It's not a "secret" hangout, it's a _safe_ hangout that
| has a racist-acceptable justification so it won 't get
| raided by the police for no good reason.
| twic wrote:
| This has reminded me of the classic sitcom Desmond's, set in
| a Guyanese barbershop in South London, with exactly that
| dynamic:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond%27s
|
| Although Desmond's wife was usually around, and he had a
| white apprentice:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxgmRB78GxQ
| koolba wrote:
| > This is something that people are unaware of (sort of on
| purpose), but barbershops in black communities become ad-hoc
| community centers, where black men can just go and be among
| other black men.
|
| This isn't specific to blacks. I've seen it first hand in
| every culture that has barber shops. Which is every culture.
|
| The key ingredient is that the barbers are members of their
| community and there's work culture ( _or lack of work culture
| depending on the individual_ ) that provides enough free time
| to actually congregate.
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| This was addressed in the tv-show "New Amsterdam". The
| medical director of the New Amsterdam Public Hospital
| identified that barbershops are indeed community centers,
| after an almost fatal event where a black man almost died
| playing basketball.
|
| The director figured that it is far more likely that men
| could get their heart checked if they didn't have to go out
| of their way to get to a hospital, and that was the right
| place to do it. He trained the main barber there on how to
| use the machine because he understood how much he cared about
| his friends, acquaintances, and the community he had
| fostered. IIRC he did that in many other barber shops in the
| area.
|
| Funny enough, this approach also saves a lot of money because
| health problems can be identified faster than otherwise.
| babayega2 wrote:
| Exactly.
|
| And when you have your special barber, he would cut your hair
| even when you have no money. That's another assumption a lot
| of non-black peoples do not know.
|
| I'm black African. I went to live in Rome (Italy) and went 3
| times in a "normal" barber shop and the Italians were just
| doing the haircuts as it is required by their jobs and
| talking about moundane things. I joined the conversation but
| ... They are professional. They don't have time to talk about
| personal problem and stuff. This is not the place.
|
| I switched to a black barbershop and, just near Termini train
| station. Man, the first day I was there the barber told me
| and asked me personal stuff and it wasn't "unprofessional" in
| my view.
|
| We bonded. And now he even call me to ask me how if a problem
| I have told him previously is solved yet, he has a plumber
| who can help me fix things and stuff...
|
| So in our culture barbers are well respected.
| mc32 wrote:
| Didn't barbers inherit their pole symbol from their origins
| as the default surgeon before professional medicine was a
| thing?
| racl101 wrote:
| Because I have thick hair that grows fast I have to go to the
| barber often. So when I go to a barber I go for the quietest most
| disinterested barber I can find. I'm not good at doing small talk
| with the people cutting my hair. If they don't speak English even
| better.
|
| Thankfully my hair is simple to cut, although.
| zthrowaway wrote:
| This is common with cosmetology and all people regardless of
| background, my mother has been in that business for her entire
| working life and it's surprising how much therapy she has to do
| outside of just cutting hair.
| da39a3ee wrote:
| I know it's well-intentioned, and I know American society has
| very real structural race problems which shouldn't be ignored or
| denied, but articles like this really risk being patronizing, and
| worse, implying that most or all black childhoods are as flawed
| as the one described.
| 3maj wrote:
| Welcome to the American Media Establishment. It's better to
| just read FT and SCMP while only skimming the NYT/Fox/etc.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Why the South China Morning Post?
| drocer88 wrote:
| SCMP was acquired by Alibaba and has become more supportive
| of Chinese Communist Party:
| https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/south-china-morning-post/ .
| I can't vouch for this analysis. I think they are not what
| they used to be.
| 3maj wrote:
| That's unfortunate, I didn't know that. But they used to
| be fairly unbiased and critical of the Chinese
| government.
| drocer88 wrote:
| They used to be high quality. Many news organizations
| have dropped a few notches. It is unfortunate that Hong
| Kong has lost its independence and suffering more and
| more from Chinese Communist policies.
| intorpor wrote:
| These "articles" have one single purpose: to create more racial
| disparity.*
|
| Reference: https://imgur.com/a/uycJp3E
|
| Time to wake up.
| armchairhacker wrote:
| Barbers are one of the few jobs left where the people servicing
| you actually converse with you. Grocery stores, restaurants,
| ride-shares, gyms, even your office are getting more impersonal.
|
| Which is honestly not a bad thing. I don't need to bother someone
| or get bothered when I'm going shopping or just want a meal, and
| I might not necessarily socialize well with my co-workers even if
| I work well with them. But we need other avenues for adult
| socialization. Current apps like social media and Tinder are
| garbage.
|
| Apps have the fundamental intention down: connecting people with
| similar interests. But online is not a replacement for in-person,
| all these popular social media apps are gamed and monetized. It's
| a hard problem.
| Slow_Hand wrote:
| The option to speak at length with a client while carrying out
| the work is a very satisfying quality in a job. I drove a
| pedicab every weekend for five years in downtown Austin and one
| of the great pleasures of the job is having your clients'
| undivided attention for 5-10 min. It's a perfect amount of time
| to get to know someone. Many times I would hit it off with them
| so well that we either exchanged info or I parked up up my cab
| and we continued to hang out for the evening. I'm someone who
| abhors small-talk, but if you give us time enough to connect in
| a sincere way it leaves you feeling great about the people you
| can meet.
| aaccount wrote:
| why is this even on HN?
| hhsbz wrote:
| Your daily dose of liberal virtue signalling.
| SerLava wrote:
| You aren't welcome here.
| blueline wrote:
| > On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.
| That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to
| reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that
| gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
| wisethrowaway wrote:
| Left wing stories: "Intellectual Curiosity (TM)"
|
| Right wing opinion: Insta[Flagged]
| chalst wrote:
| While I find the article and some of the comments
| interesting, I don't think it's a good fit for HN. Articles
| should provoke curious conversation; this one, judging from
| the number of dead posts, is provoking too much tribalism.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| It's good at exposing racists, that's for sure.
| wisethrowaway wrote:
| And gulag guards too.
| minikites wrote:
| If it was tribalism, the dead posts would be extreme
| opinions from both sides. The dead posts here are only from
| one side.
| wisethrowaway wrote:
| Which reminds you that HN moderation got outsourced to
| affiliates of the Democratic Party
| dang wrote:
| Lol. Might be time for me to put together an updated set
| of these:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870
| chalst wrote:
| I don't think you see the whole of the harm done here.
| Yes, the extreme opinions come from one side, but to deal
| with it, the non-extremists have to take opinion-
| suppressing measures. Just the process of recognising and
| flagging posts that are bad for us is polarising.
|
| There's a balance to be struck: I don't like the idea
| that the extremists determine what interesting content is
| permissible to discuss on HN. But while bringing
| attention to and discussing this article is good for
| consciousness-raising, I think this polarising process is
| damaging HN.
| dang wrote:
| There are plenty of curious comments in this thread. Those
| take time to show up, because they require reflection, not
| just reflexivity, and that function is just a lot slower.
| Repeating something from a hot, bubbling cache--pre-boiling
| rage!--is super fast. That is why comments show up so
| quickly to muck up fresh threads with angry reflexes.
|
| Of course, those comments trigger angry reflexes in others,
| so we're in a flamewar before curious conversation has had
| a chance to put its boots on. Blaming "HN" for this is a
| red herring--the overwhelming majority of HN readers and
| commenters are doing nothing of the sort, and some of them
| have interesting things to say about barber shops.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&so
| r...
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| andyxor wrote:
| another bs article from CNN
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