[HN Gopher] Ploopy: open hardware trackballs and mouse
___________________________________________________________________
Ploopy: open hardware trackballs and mouse
Author : pabs3
Score : 303 points
Date : 2021-08-24 05:32 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (ploopy.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (ploopy.co)
| protomyth wrote:
| It would be amazing to have an open sourced replacement for the
| Logitech TrackMan Wheel wired trackball. The price they command
| shows the interest in trackball controlled with your thumb. It
| had a better feel than the current model. I kept two running for
| years but they finally gave up the ghost.
| peterburkimsher wrote:
| Is it possible to customise the colours for manufacturing? I'd
| like to make a brown & green trackball that looks like an
| avocado.
| askvictor wrote:
| 3D print your own?
| peterburkimsher wrote:
| For the enclosure, yes! But a 3D printed ball seems like it
| would be difficult to smooth out.
| tempodox wrote:
| In theory a trackball is nice (I've used one for years). Your
| wrist can rest while your fingers do the moving, and it keeps
| rotational momentum after you lift your fingers, making long
| movements easier. However, your fingers will always be a little
| sweaty and the ball will deposit that on the wheels inside the
| device that transmit the movements. Keeping those clean over time
| can be quite a chore, but if you don't clean them the
| transmission will become unreliable.
|
| If a trackball could be magnetically suspended so it floats
| without touching anything and still transmit its movements, that
| would be perfect. You'd only have to clean the ball itself once
| in a while, and that would be easy enough.
| andix wrote:
| My Logitech MX ergo doesn't need a lot of cleaning. Once in a
| while maybe. But it is designed in a way that the dirt comes
| out at the bottom by itself. There are also no wheels, it uses
| optical detection of movement, like an optical mouse.
|
| Once in a while a hair or some dust gets stuck in front oft the
| sensor. Then you need to clean it. But this happens maybe twice
| a year for me.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| I need to clean mine every few weeks, but it's really not a
| problem. When I notice more friction than usual, I just pop
| the ball out with a pen and clean the contacts and ball with
| whatever cloth.
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| Anecdata: I have a 8 year-old CST trackball that has never been
| cleaned. (That sounds really gross.) It works fine.
|
| However, I think I should clean my ErgoDox and mouse soon...
| thanks for the inspiration.
| easygenes wrote:
| Probably a ball with a fine black and white grid pattern and a
| fast imaging sensor could be used to achieve this. So long as
| it's sending updates at around 100hz, should be pretty
| performant.
|
| Edit: Could also probably be something that's alternating
| bright and dark in IR so the ball doesn't look weird.
| unnouinceput wrote:
| IR and UV, much easier to decode as they are at opposite
| spectrum of visible light.
| henriks wrote:
| The one I have from Logitech uses an optical sensor for the
| movement itself. Gunk still builds up in the small balls that
| ensure the trackball itself rolls smoothly, so those have to
| be cleaned regularly anyway.
| morsch wrote:
| Trackballs don't use the wheels to transmit the movements these
| days (at least modern Logitech trackballs don't seem to).
| They're using optical sensors, just like mice. Of course, there
| is still some contact surface like a wheel or a bearing to
| clean.
| stavros wrote:
| Can confirm, tracking is always the same quality, but the
| increased friction leads to the ball losing momentum. Right
| after a cleaning (which takes five seconds), the ball sounds
| freely for a long time after a hard spin, but a few days
| later it stops pretty quickly.
| schwartzworld wrote:
| > the ball will deposit that on the wheels inside the device
| that transmit the movements
|
| This was my experience in the 90s, but my kensington expert
| uses lasers for tracking position and this is a non-issue.
| dbeley wrote:
| Another happy user of a left-handed classic trackball here!
|
| It feels perfectly right in my hand, the 3d printed texture is
| fantastic and the qmk firmware allows a level of customization
| you will never see on more consumer-oriented products.
|
| Some drawbacks I can think of are the mouse wheel placement and
| feeling, the USB type B connector and the included ball that is
| not perfectly round (there is some sort of tiny nub on top of it
| that can interfere with the bearings).
| bloopernova wrote:
| Oh good lord, the mouse has the buttons just where I want them!!!
|
| _and_ it 's QMK firmware, which means I can have it send
| keystrokes not just mouse buttons.
|
| Oh Frabjous day!
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| I'm the 0.01% of people who aren't happy that it's using QMK.
| Previously it had it's own mouse firmware, and I wish it was
| still actively maintained for this and the Ploopy Nano.
|
| Due to the new QMK firmware, the Ploopy cannot be used
| simultaneously with some very expensive KVMs and KMs. That's
| because they are all built on the assumption that they are
| connected to _one_ keyboard and _one_ mouse.
|
| I have tons of great QMK keyboards and I can't use them with
| the Ploopy on these switches because of this.
| Cyberdog wrote:
| I understand your particular pain, but I want to share the
| flip side of it. QMK devices are great for me as a Mac user
| because it's very rare that any of the custom firmware
| configuration tools for input devices get ported to macOS.
| But QMK has a port and if a device wants to present itself as
| just a bog-standard USB device with all the "translation"
| happening on the device rather than requiring custom drivers
| and additional software on the OS side, everything just
| works. I presume users of other non-Windows OSes have similar
| takes, and I really hope the QMK trend gets picked up by
| Logitech, Kensington, and MS's hardware team eventually so
| that more hardware on the mass-market/affordable end of the
| spectrum can also do these things.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| Another reason is to use it on a corporate PC without
| possibility to install anything. This allows to reassign
| buttons without installed software.
| OJFord wrote:
| Interesting, I would've assumed they (the keyboard/mouse
| part) were just USB switches. What's the (supposed; not in
| your case) benefit to them doing any HID-aware stuff? No
| Windows 'device connected' bongs when you switch (because
| it's always identifying as the KVM, just not sending
| anything)? Anything else?
| nonesuchluck wrote:
| EDID emulation is great when you have multiple screens, and
| wish to prevent MS from randomly scattering your Windows
| all across your other screens every time you click to
| another input.
|
| I don't miss the BONG!s, either.
| i_am_proteus wrote:
| Does anyone know how these compare with the L-Trac? $150, USA
| made, they don't seem to advertise, but it's handily the best
| pointing device I've ever used. Seems to get by with an annual
| cleaning, too, unlike other trackballs I've used.
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| I've never cleaned mine after 8? years... maybe I should. It
| seems to work fine, just roll it around and it cleans.
|
| I guess if I open it up I can mod it with a pool ball though
| riversflow wrote:
| +1 for the CST L trac. There was a shortage for a little bit,
| because the people who were running Clearly Superior Technology
| retired and had to find new people to manufacture/sell it.
| Which they did, the old clearlysuperiortech domain now sends
| you to the Xkeys domain,[1] its a pretty beloved device by
| people who use them, so they were able to find somebody to pick
| up the torch really fast and if I remember correctly shipped
| all the tooling to them. Alas, I can't find an archive of the
| page that was up announcing the whole thing in detail. Really
| great product. Anyway I can't vouch 100% for the new
| Trackballs, but I wouldn't think twice about buying another one
| if e broke.
|
| Two big advantages with the L-Trac, first it has very different
| ergonomics from a mouse, unlike most other trackballs on the
| market. (I still use mice for gaming, but too much mousing will
| give me an RSI in my wrist.) The CST trackballs really promote
| a fully open hand posture, and for me at least the pinching
| with my thumb is what gives me problems with mice. The other is
| the roller bearing that make the ball much smoother to operate
| than anything I've compared it against.
|
| [1]https://ol.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/comments/egcf41/clearly_s
| ...
| i_am_proteus wrote:
| Thanks for all of that!
|
| I never knew the history, just loved the product.
| literallyaduck wrote:
| I prefer a symmetrical marble mouse.
| Matrixik wrote:
| I'm using one from few years and really like the shape but it
| starting have double clicks or not registering clicks at all
| and I would really prefer to have proper scroll wheel. And
| looks like I will buy GameBall[1] that is completely new (so
| don't know long term reliability) because there are no other
| good replacements for Marble. They will be selling limited
| edition from today and standard edition should be available
| from September.
|
| [1]: https://www.gamingtrackball.com/
| ruined wrote:
| oh, perfect. the nano trackball looks like just the thing to fit
| between my ergodox. i've never seen another trackball so small!
| anyone used this? how is it?
| j-pb wrote:
| I have one and I love it. Feels super nice, very accurate.
|
| The only thing I'd change is giving it a full body click, so
| that the entire case/ball functions as a button when pushed
| down.
| ruined wrote:
| yeah, im a little apprehensive of having a clickless pointing
| device, but i already have occasionally-used mouse buttons
| mapped on my ergo so it shouldn't be a huge hurdle
| amatecha wrote:
| Another ultra-small trackball would be the one used for the MNT
| Reform[0] (which also happens to be open hardware). However, I
| don't know if it's fully ready-to-use with any arbitrary
| computer, yet. I know it's intended to be possible to be used
| with any computer but you'd have to check into that yourself.
| If you're interested and willing to be patient about it just
| keep an eye on the creator's mastodon account[1] where he posts
| all the most up-to-the-minute updates about the project. Or,
| heck, send him a message to ask about it :)
|
| [0] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform
|
| [1] https://mastodon.social/@mntmn
| ruined wrote:
| very cute, but the ball on the mnt looks a little undersized
| for comfortable manipulation, and it's not shipping until
| december. and i'm impatient so i went ahead and ordered a
| ploopy :D
| amatecha wrote:
| Ah yeah the ball itself does look a little small eh? Not
| sure, I haven't used one in person. One day I shall though,
| as I intend to order an MNT Reform sometime soon! Hope you
| enjoy the Ploopy!!
| bloopernova wrote:
| Thank you, this seems like a good option once I get my
| Keyboardio Model 100 in the new year.
| trojan13 wrote:
| During my time in university I was researching about computer
| mice and how the size affects the performance. With how easy it
| is to design and print your own computer mouse it would be
| awesome to have an open standardized testing kit to see how the
| user performance changes with the mouse.
| baybal2 wrote:
| I really want to get a trackball-mouse for CAD work, but they
| seem to have completely went extinct in the last decade.
| dang wrote:
| One past thread:
|
| _Ploopy: An Open-Source Trackball_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21263264 - Oct 2019 (84
| comments)
| notorandit wrote:
| Died!
| butterisgood wrote:
| Site went... ploopy.
| acherion wrote:
| Shop is quite slow, maybe the hackernews hug of death?
| wwn_se wrote:
| looks like a overload
| tyingq wrote:
| Their wordpress engine is starting to falter here and there. Nice
| products and approach though. Hopefully they get a cache in place
| while the sales funnel is open.
| robin_reala wrote:
| https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https%...
|
| (!cache bang on DDG with the URL will get you there quickly)
| silon42 wrote:
| I'd want a mouse/trackball with proper Cherry Blue (or brown,
| maybe) buttons/keys. Is such a thing available?
| zabatuvajdka wrote:
| I don't get the naming of said device. Brand identity is
| important and a Ploopy just doesn't sound very serious. I mean,
| ploopy rhymes with poopy. The little mouse plooped a ploppity
| plop.
| marcus_holmes wrote:
| Instantly reminds me of Wee Jock from Blackadder:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5W5PtmNPKg
| Fordec wrote:
| I'm not sure how "open" I consider a pdf of the schematics (no
| sign of PCB layouts), compiled hex files and I'm unsure where the
| mechanical 3D files are. [0]
|
| When I think of open hardware I imagine Kicad/Altium files of the
| electronics (not gerbers), access to the C, C++ or Rust firmware
| and the STEP files at least or other source modifiable files so
| they're 3D printable if I was so inclined to modify all three.
|
| [0] https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| The creator stated on his subreddit:
|
| > _CAD files are not available for the mouse... [Will it ever
| be?] It 's certainly possible, but my focus is not currently on
| the mouse, so there's no timeline._ [0]
|
| > _I haven 't released the design files for the Mouse, no. I
| may revisit that decision at a later date, since I've slated
| some major design revisions to it, but that won't be any time
| soon. Sorry._ [1]
|
| > _I made the decision some time ago to keep the mechanical
| files for the Mouse closed-source. I could spend all day trying
| to convince you that my reasoning was good, but you 'd still
| leave unsatisfied. All I can do is tell you that I'm sorry the
| files aren't available, and that I hope you can find something
| that will satisfy your needs._ [2]
|
| The Open Source Hardware Association describes OSHW as
| "hardware whose design is made publicly available so that
| anyone can study, modify, distribute, make, and sell the design
| or hardware based on that design. The hardware's source, the
| design from which it is made, is available in the preferred
| format for making modifications to it." Kicad/Altium would
| certainly be appropriate for the electronics.
|
| Gerbers are to Kicad schematics and PCBs as the STEPs and STLs
| are to the mechanical design files in Freecad .FCStd or (more
| likely) Autodesk dwg/f3d/iam or Solidworks SLDPRT/SLDASM
| formats. For the other products like the trackballs, the author
| did not release the mechanical design files, only the output
| STEPs and STLs. This isn't quite as bad as, for example,
| getting only the compiled code out of a software project.
| Mechanical design tools are good at working with STEP files;
| each step of hardware->electronics->software gets increasingly
| more obfuscated. But I agree, it's hard to put "Open" as the
| first word on your website and then describe your products as:
|
| > _Our products are accessible. Often, we release some or even
| all of the design files and source code for our products._
|
| [0]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/k4olxc/cad_availabl...
|
| [1]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/l3r783/ploopy_mouse...
|
| [2]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ploopy/comments/mkzmv7/stl_for_ploo...
| amatecha wrote:
| Hmmm, I notice there is full source for everything for their
| Classic Trackball[0], which is super awesome. Maybe they just
| haven't finalized the Mouse stuff yet? Not sure. I do share
| your confusion about that one.
|
| [0] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-trackball
| onlydnaq wrote:
| I don't know where the files for the mouse are (or if they've
| been released), but the design files for the trackball can be
| found here [1].
|
| [1] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-
| trackball/tree/master/ha...
| cookiengineer wrote:
| I was looking through the repos for the Classic Trackball, too,
| but found the design files and was kinda impressed that also
| the PCB files were open [1]. They contain the Altium Designer
| files in that case.
|
| The only thing why I'm probably not going for it is that 1)
| shipment would be way too much to justify and 2) the STLs seem
| to be 3d printed instead of injection molded or similar, so the
| "no cheap shit" argument on their website is kinda different
| for me if I have to print all files myself anyways.
|
| [1] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-
| trackball/tree/master/ha...
| walrus wrote:
| The trackballs are listed as "completely open-source" on their
| website, but the mouse is listed as "open-source firmware".
| This is consistent with what's available on their GitHub page--
| the Altium and STEP files for the trackballs are available on
| their GitHub page, and the firmware for all their products
| (including the mouse) has been upstreamed[1].
|
| [1]
| https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/pl...
| aviatordongle wrote:
| I want one but don't know why.
|
| What's the benefit of have open firmware for this?
| foxfluff wrote:
| You can customize it.
| onlydnaq wrote:
| I have one of the full size Ploopy trackballs, and it feels
| really good in the hand. It is 3D-printed, and it shows, but the
| texture of it feels pretty nice when using it.
|
| I struggled a bit with accuracy at first, but now I've lowered
| the DPI to around 500 and it's become much more usable for me
| since.
| ThePhysicist wrote:
| I have been getting back to using Trackballs again after a 20
| year hiatus. Currently I use the MX Ergo, MX 575 and its
| predecessor the MX 570 from Logitech. The cheapest model (MX 570)
| is also the best IMHO, as it seems that Logitech changed the
| sensor and made the ball harder to move in the newer models,
| which for me feels way more sluggish. But maybe it's just that I
| used the MX570 for longer already and it wore out a bit more.
|
| Anyway, having had trouble with pain in my wrist and mouse-work
| induced fatigue in my fingers I have to say that switching to
| trackballs has definitely improved this a lot. I also tried some
| vertical mice but overall I like the ergonomics of a trackball
| much more. A big benefit is that you can even use it when sitting
| on the sofa or the bed with the laptop (I know, bad habit), which
| is just impossible with a normal mouse. Also, I can't count the
| times I swept my vertical mouse off the table when reaching for
| it (as the height of the mouse still seems unexpectedly high to
| my brain), which just never happens with trackballs, obviously. I
| even enjoy playing shooters and games with a trackball, for my
| amateurish skill level the precision is good enough.
| majormajor wrote:
| I've found the "vertical" Kensington to be a nice upgrade for
| my wrist over the Logitech 570:
| https://www.kensington.com/p/products/electronic-control-sol...
| dsr_ wrote:
| I have discovered that switching every few weeks between
| trackball, mouse and touchpad reduces fatigue for me. Because
| they feel so different, I don't lose any muscle memory.
| ghaff wrote:
| I used trackballs for a longtime until my favorite and
| discontinued Logitech one eventually gave out.
|
| I didn't like any of the current ones on the market and, by
| that time, there were trackpads on the market, at least the
| ones for Macs, that I actively liked rather than barely, if
| that, tolerated.
| yesimahuman wrote:
| Same here. After trying every alternative ergo mouse on the
| market I landed on a trackball and I love it. It has no wrist
| movement so makes all those ergo mice decisions irrelevant and
| it quickly becomes second nature and feels faster than using a
| traditional mouse. Agreed fps games are weird but on the few
| games I can't use a controller it actually works pretty well
| and more than enough for my needs.
|
| Also yes the sofa usage is awesome. Didn't even think about
| this being an advantage, but I do it all the time
| systemvoltage wrote:
| I wish they'd invest in proper injection molding tooling and get
| these made professionally. You can do that very cheaply in
| Malaysia and Taiwan, and of course China. Total cost for tooling
| and integration/assembling jigs would be around $50-100k
| including engineering labor for mold design. It will take solid 2
| years of work to get it absolutely perfect and to ramp up
| production. As much as these are philosophically cool, I am
| definitely not buying anything that's 3D printed. It's fine for
| tinkering, otherwise just garbage. Ya'll need a new name - ploopy
| is too close to poopy.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Getting proper molds built is a very expensive up front
| investment when you don't know how big your addressable market
| is. It also impedes innovation in the early design (which these
| clearly are).
|
| I'm now curious if it makes sense to build replacement pcbs for
| off the shelf models. I certainly have a very old trackball
| that I used during the mac quadra era that is fucking fantastic
| except for the fact that it's ADB. If I could swap out the pcb
| and make it compatible with qmk and usb that would be
| fantastic. I do know that there is a small ADB to USB converter
| out there for keyboards that even let you do keystroke
| remapping, however I'm unsure of how it deals with mouse-
| things.
|
| But back to your main point. I think 3d printing makes sense in
| this space at least for the forseeable future. In the event
| that they make a 'hit' input device, once the design is refined
| a modest injection molded run of the case seems like a grand
| idea.
| john_yaya wrote:
| Probably not helpful here, but: if you want something 3D
| printed that doesn't feel or look like it, you can print it at
| very high resolution in ABS, then expose it to acetone vapor
| for about 30 minutes. The item will smooth out and the later
| lines disappear.
|
| For other plastics, you can give them a coat of epoxy.
| yellowapple wrote:
| Alternatively, a resin printer would get them most of the way
| there without anywhere close to that upfront cost.
| thrtythreeforty wrote:
| I think you and I have different definitions of "very cheaply."
| Small scale products like these are _brutal_ on people who try
| to do small manufacturing runs (say, 1000) because that measly
| $50k becomes +$50 on each unit.
|
| Keyboardio liked to talk about this when they were building
| their first models.
| elcritch wrote:
| To be fair, you could probably get a basic injection mold for
| these kind of parts for $3-$6k [1]. Likely you'd still have
| parts that'd be 3D printed.
|
| 1: https://icomold.com/much-injection-molding-cost/
| Karliss wrote:
| For very low runs maybe casting appropriate resin or
| polyurethane in a silicon mold might be suitable. That's
| doable in DIY setup with biggest investment being time and
| few hundred dollars worth material at most.
| imtringued wrote:
| I agree, polyurethane casting is the least you can do for
| a commercial product. It does take time but each mold is
| a 3D printer in its own right.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| They should do fundraising. There is a critical energy needed
| to go over the hump - stay on the left side and forever keep
| making low volume goods. Get funds, seriously invest and it
| can become a solid competitor to high end mice from Logitech
| - difficult but worthy of pursuit. I've worked on both sides
| of the asymptote, not trivializing but products like this are
| in uncanny valley. Folks at WASD keyboards took 3 years to
| scale their Code-keyboards - it is hard to do but their
| keyboards are rock solid now.
| amatecha wrote:
| Hmm, luckily, one big upside of the "open hardware" aspect is,
| you could take these .stl files[0] and get them manufactured
| yourself (if you want a really nicely-produced piece). Yeah, it
| will cost a lot, but at least you have that option (especially
| going forward if Ploopy company stops selling the hardware).
|
| [0] https://github.com/ploopyco/classic-
| trackball/tree/master/ha...
| gwbas1c wrote:
| One thing this really points out is how products that's ultra-
| hackable and ultra-customizable are often more expensive than
| typical mass-produced, ultra-cost-shaved alternatives.
|
| IE, the Ploopy mouse costs $130, but a generic wired mouse costs
| $13.
|
| I'm tempted to buy a Ploopy mouse because it has dedicated copy &
| paste buttons... (I don't think I'd ever hack it.) But then
| again, it has a cord! I personally was a holdout and kept using a
| wired mouse long after everyone cut their cord, but I don't want
| to go back to a wire. (And I don't want to hack the mouse to be
| cordless.)
| Cyberdog wrote:
| Opposite here. After trying a few, I have no interest in buying
| cordless mice and will actively go out of my way to make sure
| any mouse I buy is corded. Even if things have gotten better in
| the last few years since I've tried them with regards to lag
| and such, there's still the annoying battery situation.
|
| Sometimes there's just no replacing a direct connection.
|
| All that said, I agree on the price on these. I'd love to have
| an open-firmware mouse, but $130 is too steep for a
| productivity mouse and there's not enough buttons for a gaming
| mouse (I like using the MMO-style ones which basically have a
| 10-key pad under your thumb).
| weego wrote:
| It's a 3d printed shell and some fairly stock bits. How anyone
| thinks that justifies nearly $200 assembled is beyond me. Also
| almost all claims that a specific keyboard / mouse design from
| someone 3d printing their own stuff is ergonomic are dubious at
| best and more than likely just a sales tagline.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| And this sentiment is why so many hardware startups fail. At
| small scales, you need sale prices 2x, 4x or more above your
| BOM costs to have any hope of profitability.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Great Unisys' ghost, that red ball
| [deleted]
| porker wrote:
| Any Kensington Slimblade users here? I adopted it a couple of
| months ago due to wrist pain. My accuracy is fairly good however
| I cannot reliably double-click, let alone triple-click, something
| I used a lot in my IDE!
|
| Is there a technique, or is this something Trackballs (or this
| particular trackball) aren't good at?
| egypturnash wrote:
| You've got four customizable buttons on it; consider setting
| two to double- and triple-click.
| nonesuchluck wrote:
| I use a SlimBlade at work, and have not had that problem. If
| you find it difficult to depress that large, flat button, try
| something with a different click mechanism. I use an Elecom
| Huge at home, another mouse with an oversized trackball. I use
| it for work and gaming, and find it very snappy to operate. The
| left-click is clicked inwards with your thumb, instead of
| downwards like the Kensington balls. Uses a different muscle.
| You might miss the ball-scrolling, but only the SlimBlade has
| that mechanism.
| mkl wrote:
| I'd guess it's that particular model, as none of the trackballs
| or mice I've tried have been like that. Maybe try a Kensington
| Expert Mouse? Same form factor as SlimBlade, but the buttons
| look more like proper buttons. I have several of them, and have
| never had any clicking problems (it's quite a bit easier than a
| mouse, in fact, because the pointer stays still). I haven't
| tried a SlimBlade, and don't plan to (I like a physical scroll
| ring), but I can recommend the Expert Mouse (though I wish
| they'd called it an Expert Trackball or something!). I
| recommend the wired version over the wireless one.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| You can just map a combination of two buttons for a triple-
| click. Also, the trick is to click somewhere near the
| trackball, the buttons have lower resistance there.
|
| This said, I've never found my Slimblade comfortable and have
| accepted that my Magic trackpad is the most ergonomic device
| for me. Every time I use a trackball I get hand fatigue due to
| palm shape and hard buttons. Precision movements are also hard
| on big and hi-res monitors. I am always re-adjusting the cursor
| position.
| serf wrote:
| >Is there a technique, or is this something Trackballs (or this
| particular trackball) aren't good at?
|
| no problem like that here -- trackball user for life.
|
| I'm left handed, my pinky and ring finger sit on the LMB and my
| thumb sits on RMB/mouse-wheel, on a kensington. No special
| technique as far as I am aware.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Really not new tho. Is there anything new here from 2 or more
| years ago?
| chrisdinn wrote:
| There are two new trackball models released this year, the nano
| and mini.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| ah good, thank you
| scbrg wrote:
| I've always considered Microsoft's Trackball Explorer the best
| pointing device I've come across (oh I wish Microsoft could stick
| to making hardware!). Apparently I'm not alone, since they go for
| hundreds of dollars on the second hand market.
|
| It looks like Ploopy's _Classic Trackball_ comes fairly close to
| the form factor. Very tempted :-)
| Clewza313 wrote:
| Per the site, the fully assembled retail price for the Ploopy
| Classic would be $209.99-$227.49 CAD if it wasn't out of stock.
| Even the DIY kit runs $139.99-$157.49 CAD depending on options.
|
| https://ploopy.co/shop/classic-trackball-full-kit/
| john_yaya wrote:
| Seconded on the Trackball Explorer, it was an absolute joy. The
| day I started using one, I immediately went out and purchased a
| backup. They're both dead now.
| h2odragon wrote:
| I'll pop up and mention that Elecom makes a worthy successor to
| the MS Trackball; and in small and large sizes, to boot. I
| _kill_ keyboards and trackballs and my elecom 's have been at
| least as sturdy as the MS Trackballs were. Easier to clean,
| too.
|
| https://forum.trackballs.eu/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=58
| Wronnay wrote:
| I wished they had a vertical mouse. Currently use one and prefer
| it over a normal mouse...
| yellowapple wrote:
| If there was a thumbball option I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
| silentclickclub wrote:
| Are there any options for silent clicks? A few mice have this
| option these days but impossible to find for trackballs.
| knaik94 wrote:
| I looked into index finger trackball mice and ended up getting
| the Elecom deft pro. It's 70usd, can do wired, wireless with a
| dongle and also bluetooth and you can switch between them with a
| hardware switch. It has proper buttons and the left and right
| click uses omron switches. It has proper driver support and
| pretty decent hardware. I use X-mouse button control along with
| the original driver which is a native app that hasn't asked to
| connect to the internet. There's full support to remap the
| buttons using Xorg config in linux with a relatively new kernel
| and most buttons remap using an older kernel.
|
| Most people, including me have switched out the factory ruby
| bearings for ZrO2 bearings. It's a simple disassembly and
| reassembly, a bit more advanced than install ram. It's not a huge
| difference but is definitely noticeable. I am planning on
| replacing the microswitches at some point as well, it's
| relatively straightforward to disassemble and all you'd need is a
| soldering iron.
|
| For me the experience has been really smooth and even though it's
| not open source, it's well supported and easy to mod. I looked at
| the ploopy but honestly felt the Elecom Deft Pro was a better
| value for my money. I also appreciate more buttons and an actual
| plastic shell and not a 3d printed product. I personally like
| Xbindkeys for when I use it on Arch. I found X-mouse button
| control let me map a button to switch the trackball into a giant
| scroll wheel which is really useful. You can remap buttons to
| copy, paste, and other gestures.
|
| Amazon US link (non-affiliate): https://www.amazon.com/Trackball-
| M-DPT1MRXBK-Bluetooth-High-...
|
| Disassembly pics: https://imgur.com/a/XzUOey1
| mimsee wrote:
| https://archive.is/whB5d
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Is there a reason these couldn't offer a PS/2 option?
|
| I don't understand a ton about hardware, so there may be an
| obvious answer to this question. I just remember looking for a
| decent PS/2 mouse with more than 2-3 buttons after reading too
| much about USB vulnerabilities and found the market completely
| lacking.
|
| I've assumed there's a technological limitation, but seem to
| remember owning a such a mouse in the mid 2000's.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| +1
|
| Such a PS/2 mouse would be very exciting to me.
|
| I love everything about the Ploopy except for the firmware -
| QMK makes things complicated for my expensive KVMs/KMs. A
| dedicated mouse protocol would be ideal. QMK doesn't provide
| that, but PS/2 could.
|
| WRT PS/2, demand is too low and I don't realistically have the
| knowledge, time, and resources to make one.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Can't you just get a USB to PS/2 adapter? Seems like the
| obvious solution, and they run about $6.
|
| And no USB vulnerabilities are going to make it through the
| adapter, correct?
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| When I did my research I was searching for mouse and
| keyboard, and those adapters could hold keyloggers themselves
| making it only an improvement not a fix. There may have been
| more I'm not remembering, this was several years ago and my
| realization that it was a silly concern for my home PC led me
| to forget most of what I read.
| detaro wrote:
| Not really a technological limitation (PS/2 interface is a bit
| weird, but not too bad, and actually not sure if a mouse even
| needs the weirder parts), just likely almost no demand inside
| the already tiny niche for this product, so I'm not surprised
| they didn't bother.
| dgrabla wrote:
| I have one of the original right hand Ploopy trackballs.
|
| - It comes in a kit and as you need to assemble it, you feel
| emotionally attached to it
|
| - The designer (Colin) probably has big hands. I have a small
| hand and it doesn't fit right.
|
| - The 3d printed texture is great.
|
| - The ball doesn't 'flow'. It doesn't keep momentum. You apply a
| strong movement and it spins dead within the second.
|
| - I absolutely love it is open source, but there is not much of a
| community around it, probably because the barriers of entry are
| quite high. I never found the time to hack it myself.
|
| - It tracks the movement extremely well. Accuracy, precision are
| awesome. Better than any other trackball I have (and I have
| MANY). On par with the logitech mx master.
|
| - The position of the thumb wheel is not good for my hand. After
| months of use it started giving me RSI. And now everytime I use
| it, I notice within the hour that something is not right.
|
| My perfect trackball would be the ploopy:
|
| - With a smaller body for small hands
|
| - With momentum in the scroll wheel ALA logitech mice
|
| - With a different position for the scroll wheel
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| >The ball doesn't 'flow'. It doesn't keep momentum. You apply a
| strong movement and it spins dead within the second.
|
| For this issue, some people have modified their Ploopy
| trackballs with great success using Ball Transfer Units. Here's
| a long blog post about it:
| https://www.gbryant.co.uk/posts/2021-02-15_ploopy-trackball/...
|
| An example video of BTUs functioning in a Kingston trackball:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/comments/ddlovq/ladies_a...
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| Thanks for the summary.
|
| May I ask why do you prefer trackballs over say a trackpad? I
| too like trackballs due to tangible feeling of it but I use a
| wacom tablet as trackpad for accessibility reasons.
|
| The open nature of Ploopy might be well suited for those with
| accessibility needs like me but as you say the barrier for
| entry is high(but so are any other accessibility hardware;
| unfortunately).
| xkcd-sucks wrote:
| Personally, I prefer trackballs (specifically the "thumb"
| type) because they minimize wrist movement and finger
| contortions. Using a trackpad or mouse for an extended period
| of time, my wrist gets quite painful, and clicking on a
| trackpad likewise makes my finger joints painful. This is
| probably not fundamental, but trackballs just seem to make
| ergonomics easier.
|
| Secondarily, with a trackball it's easier to cover a large
| area "ballistically" i.e. with a mouse or trackpad you might
| have to do multiple side-to-side traversals in order to go
| across your screens (or set a very high DPI which also gets
| tiring after a while)
| Abishek_Muthian wrote:
| Interestingly the reasons you mention for using trackball
| over trackpad is the same reason I use trackpad over a
| mouse. I guess a thumb based trackball does better in those
| regards,
|
| Do you have suggestions for a decent thumb based trackball?
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| I'm not the person you responded to, but I've owned
| several thumb trackballs and my favorite is the Logitech
| MX Ergo Plus.
|
| The "Plus" version is the same as the normal "MX Ergo"
| but with an optional angled support provided (and only
| available in the US, I imported mines from Ebay).
| geniium wrote:
| > - With a smaller body for small hands
|
| That's actually a nice idea. It would be great to have three
| sizes, like S, M and L.
| thefunnyman wrote:
| Even better, some kind of configuration that accepts a range
| of values and then generates a model. Dactyl keyboards work
| this way
|
| https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard
| geniium wrote:
| Interesting! Personally I like the ZSA Moonlander. You can
| adjust it pretty well.
| pointhi wrote:
| Years ago I also started designing an OSH mouse[1] as there was
| nothing on the market (in comparison to OSH keyboards). The main
| problem I encountered was mechanical design, as with 3d-printing
| it is hard to get a good mouse-wheel with vertical scrolling. The
| same goes with the other mouse buttons, where you also want good
| tactile feedback.
|
| [1] https://hackaday.io/project/7929-ardumouse
| tim-- wrote:
| What can I do to support this project?
| smallerfish wrote:
| I use Logitech Trackman trackballs. Every 2 or 3 years I have to
| replace them, because a) the varnish on the ball wears out and it
| becomes stiffer to move and b) (maybe) the bearings on the inside
| stiffen up. They're only $25 though, and the ergonomics are
| excellent, so I'd need a $150 trackball to last 12 years to make
| it worthwhile. Of course economies of scale and all that.
| NoGravitas wrote:
| I've been using the thumb operated Logitech trackball, whatever
| the current release of it is when I buy one, since 2002 or so.
| I think I've gone through three or four? My current one is the
| wireless one from 2014 or so, and I don't like it quite as much
| as the old ones, but it's better than having a mouse.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I 'd need a $150 trackball to last 12 years to make it
| worthwhile_
|
| Only if you choose to exclude social factors from your shopping
| decisions.
|
| I get it, lots of people do. That's why we have WalMart and
| Amazon.com and Target filled with cheap Chinese junk while the
| small business down the street can't get shelf space.
|
| But if you're someone who values what the company is doing,
| that 12 years may be closer to five or six years. And if the
| quality is better than Logitech, it may last that whole time,
| instead of requiring replacement every 2 years.
|
| (I don't use trackballs or mouses, so I have no skin in this
| game.)
| tartoran wrote:
| Almost bought one but the server stopped responding. Will
| definitely bookmark this and try again later
| crazygringo wrote:
| Just curious what's behind the name... "ploopy"?
|
| I mean, when a name manages to combine "plop" and "poopy" in a
| way that makes it _really_ hard to think of anything but the
| toilet... it just makes me wonder why they chose that
| association?
| Clewza313 wrote:
| My first guess would have been that this is from a European
| company, which often have product names that don't sound quite
| right to a native English speaker [1], but cursory Googling [2]
| reveals that Ploopy Corporation appears to be run by a Colin
| Lam from Mississauga, Ontario, next to Toronto and not even in
| Quebec. So your guess is as good as mine.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plopp
|
| [2] https://www.bizapedia.com/canada/ploopy-corporation.html
| katmannthree wrote:
| I believe he's commented on reddit that he likes how it's a
| memorable, funny name.
| melony wrote:
| If you have kids, the name is from a popular series of
| tween books called _diary of a wimpy kid_.
| stavros wrote:
| Where is it from if you don't?
| NoGravitas wrote:
| Huh, interesting. It was also used in one of the Magic
| School Bus books (and maybe a corresponding episode, not
| sure), to describe the sound made by Carlos' invented
| musical instrument.
| Clewza313 wrote:
| Interesting. Although he really should have gone with a
| serious, enterprisey name like "Google" or "Tiktok".
| xcambar wrote:
| I like your sarcasm.
| IshKebab wrote:
| The problem isn't that it's not serious. It's that it's
| actively a bit gross. When someone says Tiktok I think
| "huh, a funky spelling" not "is this something to do with
| poo?"
|
| Obviously studied at the GIMP school of naming.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| GIMP at least stands for GNU Image Manipulation Program.
| You can see where the name came from.
|
| This looks like nothing more than poor taste.
| IshKebab wrote:
| GIMP is clearly a backronym. They deliberately chose a
| crude name that might amuse 12 year olds and then
| contrived an acronym for it.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| "Clearly"? It's no Uniting and Strengthening America by
| Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and
| Obstruct Terrorism Act.
| egypturnash wrote:
| To me it does a great job of saying "this is my fun side
| project that I do not want to become my day job". :)
| amatecha wrote:
| haha, combined with the "no cheap shit" feature tagline,
| there's a funny trend here! ;)
| LibertyBeta wrote:
| I was going to buy the Mini Trackball, but.... the bearing
| structure just isn't it for me. Between using single direction
| bearings with PLA pins to the possible grinding its just a little
| to much work ATM. Oh, and direct screwing into PLA always worries
| me.
|
| The big one however has these mods in the community so that's
| awesome.
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