[HN Gopher] Mosquito saliva alone has profound effects on the hu...
___________________________________________________________________
Mosquito saliva alone has profound effects on the human immune
system (2018)
Author : danboarder
Score : 167 points
Date : 2021-08-23 17:22 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (journals.plos.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (journals.plos.org)
| autokad wrote:
| "We detected both Th1 and Th2 human immune responses, and delayed
| effects on cytokine levels in the blood, and immune cell
| compositions in the skin and bone marrow, up to 7 days post-
| bites."
|
| I wonder if this could be a treatment for cytokine storms caused
| by things such as the spanish flu.
| gillytech wrote:
| > ... mosquito and sandfly saliva have also been shown to enhance
| infectivity and disease progression
|
| I wonder if it was mosquitos that have evolved to make disease
| they are carrying more infectious or it's the pathogen that
| evolved to take advantage of the mosquito's biology to make the
| host more likely to become infected. Regardless this is
| fascinating.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| On a related note: interestingly, humans can develop immunity to
| _ticks_. Which means that if a tick bites them, it dies.
|
| https://www.caryinstitute.org/news-insights/media-coverage/h...
|
| Utterly fascinating. Our bodies are so much more complex than I
| could have imagined.
| dwighttk wrote:
| Instead of a Lyme vaccine we should work on spreading this to
| everyone
|
| (Or you know, we could do both.)
| mv4 wrote:
| ticks' bodies are pretty amazing to:
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/ticks/alpha-gal/index.html
| Kenji wrote:
| That's interesting. I seem to kill small mosquitoes when they
| bite me. I've observed it multiple times. It lands, it bites
| and it becomes completely unresponsive. Because I was drunk at
| the time, I chalked it up to blood alcohol content which will
| yield quite a bit of alcohol if a mosquito drinks so-and-so
| many times its own body weight (I did some basic math) but
| since then it also happened when I was sober.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| Even if you were at 0.5% BAC (legal driving limit is 0.08%,
| and 0.5% would kill a lot of people), that's still about the
| alcohol percentage in NA beer. Unlikely to have any effect.
| parsecs wrote:
| That's very interesting as well. Could you expand a little on
| what you mean by them becoming completely unresponsive?
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Sounds like mosquito saliva can yield new drugs to treat immune
| system problems.
| personjerry wrote:
| I read the abstract but it told me nothing. Could someone smarter
| to me help translate?
|
| What are the profound effects?
|
| What are Th1 and Th2 responses?
|
| What are cytokines?
|
| What are immune cell compositions?
|
| Overall is this a good effect or a bad effect?
| mcguire wrote:
| The Author Summary seems to provide a more plain-English
| description:
|
| " _Mosquito saliva proteins have numerous effects on the immune
| system, and we describe here the use of mice with a humanized
| immune system to study the effects of mosquito bites on human
| cells. Our results show that the number of immune cell types
| affected is much larger than previously described, and some
| immune responses to mosquito bites can be detected up until 7
| days post-bite. The biological significance of these changes
| remains to be determined, but it might explain how some
| pathogens, such as viruses, can spread through the body in
| these cells, replicate to higher extents, and even remain in
| some tissues for far longer than detected in blood._ "
|
| They're using stem cells to provide mice with "humanized"
| immune systems. The mosquito saliva is interacting with more
| types of immune cells than previously thought and remain active
| for longer than thought. The effects of these interactions is
| still unknown, but may be part of how bacteria, viruses, etc.
| carried by mosquitoes infect humans.
| aborowie wrote:
| Cytokines are signaling molecules used by the immune system,
| there are around 20 of them with names like IL-4 and IL-10. The
| IL stands for inter leukin (signal between white blood cells).
|
| T Cells start as B Cells and then graduate from Thymus school
| after rigorous coursework (mainly don't target and attack
| self). Most T helper cells stay as Th0 or undifferentiated. Th1
| are specialized for inter cellular pathogens (bacteria and
| virus), Th2 broadly speaking are specialized for intra cellular
| pathogens (helminths and parasites).
|
| Pathogens that have been around for a while like bacteria,
| virus, helminths, and parasites have evolved to push back
| against immune systems to varying degrees.
|
| Source "The Body" by Bill Bryson
| yhoneycomb wrote:
| I think it's so interesting how this guy asked pretty
| rudimentary questions and got such an amazing response. I
| wish the tech community could be just as nice to newcomers.
| danboarder wrote:
| Regarding understanding this as a good or bad effect, I think
| this is still an open question and further research is needed.
| My take away is that the rush to eradicating mosquitoes may
| have unintended consequences as we don't fully understand how
| symbiotic they are in the development of the human immune
| system.
| tartoran wrote:
| When I was a kid I couldn't care less about mosquitoes and during
| the summer most of the kids' legs and arms had mosquito bites and
| deep scratches, but for some reason some kids were never bitten
| regardless of where they'd hang out or sleep.
|
| Not sure whether it's a good thing or not but now I am extremely
| cautious not to get any bites. This summer for example I avoided
| the backyard almost completely for this reason, with some
| exceptions when I covered myself in mosquito repellant spray. The
| mosquito candles I tried last time weren't very efficient in my
| case.
| [deleted]
| nomel wrote:
| I was one of the kids that mosquitos loved. One night I counted
| 30 bites on my legs/arms, where my friend had one. This stopped
| after I hit 25 or so.
|
| This makes me assume there's some pheromone that could be
| extracted from a younger me, used to lure mosquitos to their
| death.
| learn_more wrote:
| Could also be lack of hair on your arms/legs.
| jcims wrote:
| There are observed biases based on blood type
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15311477/
|
| I'm O negative and have always seemed to get the worst of it
| when out when friends.
|
| I recently took up cigar smoking (yes i know) and anecdotally
| have found that I don't get bit as often if I've been smoking
| recently...to the point of watching someone six feet from me
| get destroyed while they avoid me completely. My father-in-
| law has been smoking for 50+ years and they ignore him.
| notdang wrote:
| They avoid you only when you smoke or in general, also when
| you don't smoke?
| monkeytaco wrote:
| I've found these to be pretty effective.
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PDNCMMN
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| Saved my ass (literally) in an outhouse in the Alaskan tundra
| this summer.
| gilbetron wrote:
| +1 to those. I was shocked to actually have a repellent that
| really worked. When I bought two years ago, I had gotten a
| puppy and would work in my back yard so he and my other dog
| could hang around outside, chewing and messing around. Summer
| came and the mosquitoes were awful. Stick one of those under
| my chair, and I'd go from 10+ bites a minute to 1 bite per
| hour, if that.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| It is so awesome that you have to dig into the comments to
| determine that this uses metofluthrin. :-\
| djmips wrote:
| Toxic to cats and bees?
| pishpash wrote:
| Yes, most of these are neurotoxins, at insect doses of
| courses.
| [deleted]
| heavyset_go wrote:
| You might be on to something. I got a fever and was sick for a
| while after being bit by a lot of mosquitoes last year. It
| could have been a coincidence, but I'm still going to try to
| avoid getting weird illnesses from their bites from now on.
| stamourd wrote:
| The things you can learn on HN.
|
| "humanized mice footpads" are a thing.
| echelon wrote:
| Mice are one of the most effective research tools available
| right now.
|
| Many protocols use foot injury to look for heat shock response,
| immune recruitment, inflammation, etc.
|
| There are monoclonal lines for gene knockouts, human chimeras,
| etc. to aid in certain types of study.
| tmaly wrote:
| What I find interesting is how I react to mosquito bites in
| Southeast Asia verse how I react to bites in North America. The
| difference is huge.
| lossolo wrote:
| Could you elaborate?
| sillyquiet wrote:
| Speaking anecdotally - here in central Texas, we have a few
| species of mosquito, and my reaction to a bite varies from a
| small bump that goes away in a day to intense swelling and
| itching. And it all seemingly depends on which type of mosquito
| bit me.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| Try heating it with a hair dryer until pain. I'm not sure for
| mosquitoes but it works for me with hornets and horse flies
| bites.
| Vaslo wrote:
| That's a great trick. I was always told to use a metal spoon
| and get it as hot as you can stand it and press it the bite
| as much as you can and as long as you can stand it. Never
| thought about the hair dryer.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| The hair dryer is much more controllable, you might
| severely burn yourself with the spoon (and need another
| trick to relive the pain ;)
|
| For what it's worth my hair is so short I never owned a
| hair drier until I heard about this trick. So I bought a
| cheap one and it's only used in summer.
| Sunspark wrote:
| I just use a blue gel ice pack on the bite for 2 minutes.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| This is my solution as well. I find that an intense heating
| session will keep the itch at bay for up to 8 hours.
|
| I think the hot spoon that others have mentioned is also
| worth a try as the circumference of the bite and spoon could
| keep non bite areas from burning.
| kennywinker wrote:
| There are little infrared pens that you can get that do this
| without pain, just heating the area with IR to denature the
| proteins injected by the insect
| currydove wrote:
| Oh interesting. Any recommendations that you have?
| EGreg wrote:
| Please share the Amazon links!
| goldenkey wrote:
| Please don't act like Amazon is the only shop around.
| They are a terrible shop, actively adversarial to their
| merchants and customers. They are chock full of fake
| reviews, they comingle inventory, and practice many dark
| patterns.
|
| Most people think that Amazon sells all the products on
| their site - because Amazon designs their site to look
| like it. Even young people who are technically literate
| are fooled. This results in a lot of harm..
|
| https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/amazons-plan-
| to-...
|
| In actuality, eBay is more of a trustworthy marketplace
| than Amazon...
| willyt wrote:
| I just bought something from amazon and it turns out it
| was coming from a seller in another country and i had to
| pay an extra PS24 in import duties and carrier charges.
| Nowhere on the listing did it say it was coming from
| outside the UK.
| goldenkey wrote:
| I am sorry to hear that. Amazon's UI is purposely
| designed to make it difficult to notice this kind of
| information. Buyers are lulled into a false sense of
| assuredness.
|
| Listings are often even hijacked!
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27684807
|
| (And Amazon couldn't care less!)
| brnt wrote:
| Didn't y'all vote for having extra tariffs a while back?
| bserge wrote:
| Your effort is appreciated.
| goldenkey wrote:
| Thank you. It's difficult to oppose such a large
| behemoth.
| meristohm wrote:
| Thanks for promoting other options. When recommending
| books I use worldcat.org links rather than the more-
| exploitative for-profit vendors.
|
| In the interest of making more art available to more
| people, independent of spending-money, I'd rather us
| collectively invest more in public libraries. To what
| degree do public libraries fund authors?
| TonyTrapp wrote:
| BiteAway works well for me.
| emptyfile wrote:
| This stuff absolutely works, but I would call it the
| opposite of painless.
| a_brawling_boo wrote:
| I had a handful of marks/scars that lasted for several
| years on my legs after using one of these. I am sure it
| depends on the brand, but please be careful using these.
| tempestn wrote:
| These are great. I find they are slightly
| uncomfortable/painful, but only mildly so and momentarily.
| Much more localized than something like a hairdryer or
| spoon though. Helps with wasp stings too.
| Kenji wrote:
| Yes, heat works wonders. Hot water also works. Even against
| bee stings. Practically no swelling and no pain within a few
| minutes.
| yosito wrote:
| I just take a super hot shower. It works for all kinds of
| itching: bug bites, poison ivy, eczema...
| bserge wrote:
| I just ignore it and wait.
| meristohm wrote:
| Doesn't hot water make skin conditions worse in the long
| run?
| yosito wrote:
| It depends on the condition and it's cause.
| ozim wrote:
| How long after bite does it work?
|
| Usually in the woods I don't have a hair dryer with me. So
| you are using it if you get bitten in the backyard or if you
| get back home from the hike?
|
| Usually I also notice bites the next day when they start
| itching or when I get evening shower unless I really slap
| that mosquito in the act.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| The first time I heard about this method I tried one or 2
| days later after the bite and it worked, so if it's a day
| hike there won't be any problem.
| clipradiowallet wrote:
| Depends what you take hiking with you...but I imagine at
| the minimum you have a fire method(matches? lighted? flint?
| etc) and metal object(pocket knife? belt knife? eating
| utensil?). Those will work well in a pinch, just don't heat
| it too much and have an impromptu branding session...
| toss1 wrote:
| Good trick - I use hot water, at hot as I can stand for both
| bites and poison ivy rashes, trying to minimize exposure
| beyond the affected area. Really calms it all down for hours
| after the zing of the hot water.
| petre wrote:
| Also rubbing with salt, vinegar, 70% alcohol. Apple vinegar
| helped me with a contact allergy I got after walking
| through some "grass".
| mayankkaizen wrote:
| It does work on mosquito bite. Actually try putting anything
| (tolerably) hot at the place of mosquito bite. I don't have
| hair drier so I use just hot spoon. I guess this heat
| treatment somehow disintegrates the chemical released by
| mosquito.
|
| Edit: posted this comment before reading other comments so
| didnt realize others have also suggested the same.
| elteto wrote:
| A hot spoon works too. It should not burn you though, just
| hot enough to be somewhat uncomfortable. I just run hot tap
| water over the spoon.
| gHosts wrote:
| I suspect wrong hypothesis there.... the variable is probably
| what other allergen is on you skin (or finger nails) and
| whether and how much you scratch it! Temperature is probably
| also a factor.
| Igelau wrote:
| I get those reactions with one bite. If I get a lot of them I'm
| fatigued for days.
| hendler wrote:
| Tiger mosquitos gave my son a strong reaction
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3708019/
| bserge wrote:
| Same thing in Europe.
| charles_f wrote:
| Totally! I leave in BC, the few mosquitoes which make it into
| my house despite nets usually give me big bumps that last for a
| few days and scratch like hell. When I get into the deeper
| woods, I get eaten alive, but these bites' effect seems to last
| only a few hours. Might also be the blood pumping though, but I
| do think that natural selection, even over a short variation of
| geo, results in such differences
| singlow wrote:
| Seems like a plausible explanation but how do you have any idea
| which species bit you in order to be able to draw a conclusion
| that there's a correlation?
| Lammy wrote:
| They're pretty visible/memorable due to their white stripes:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aedes_albopictus
| singlow wrote:
| But do you see the mosquito that bit you most of the time,
| unsmashed? Often enough to correlate?
| sillyquiet wrote:
| Speaking personally - not always do I notice the
| mosquito.
|
| But I have noticed often enough to note the difference.
| For me, the smaller, more stealthy mosquitos give me the
| small, temporary bump, but the larger more noticeable
| ones like the tiger mosquito or what we call zebra
| mosquitos (I _think_ they are actually western
| encephalitis mosquitos (!)) have a more dramatic
| reaction.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I visited my parents in the DC area, and there's been a bunch
| of people developing really nasty rashes from insect bites, I
| don't know if it's confirmed, but it seems to be attributed to
| an oak-mite[1]
|
| 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyemotes_herfsi
| pwg wrote:
| There was an article on that topic in the Washington Post at
| the end of July:
|
| WaPo link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-
| va/2021/07/30/oak-mites...
|
| Archive.is link (no paywall): https://archive.is/AEi6a
| [deleted]
| 01100011 wrote:
| My wife has 'skeeter syndrome' and the bites vary from normal
| mosquito bites to 3-4" wide, weeping bumps depending on where
| we were at when she got bit. Hawaii was the worst. WA state
| wasn't too bad.
| wil421 wrote:
| We have some in Georgia but I don't think there are as many
| species as Texas.
|
| A mosquito has never left a mark or made me itch in my life.
| Poison ivy on the other hand...I could look at it and get a
| rash but not the go to the doctor rash.
| [deleted]
| jokoon wrote:
| Of all the place i get bit, the ankle is the worst and most
| sensitive place, and I always get rash and scars.
| KoftaBob wrote:
| This is actually the main idea behind the "Bug Bite Thing"
| product I came across recently. It acts as a suction tube to
| remove mosquito saliva from the bite and therefore minimize the
| immune inflammation at the site.
|
| Naturally, as soon as it came in the mail, I have yet to get a
| mosquito bite since.
| morsch wrote:
| So you're saying it works as a preventative, as well.
| ivoras wrote:
| One of the few things which can reliably fuck up brains are
| (auto)immune events.
|
| It would be impossible to collect the data but I would LOVE to
| see how longevity and mental faculty correlate with
| attractiveness to mosquitoes.
| amelius wrote:
| Perhaps you could start by comparing longevity and mental
| faculty between countries with/without large amounts of
| mosquitoes.
| yourapostasy wrote:
| It would be quite ironic if The Great Filter turned out to be the
| xeno equivalent of mosquitoes spreading some unstoppable virus.
| Or if mosquito saliva contains the proteins(s) to unlock some
| medical breakthrough like some immune system stimulant that
| obsoletes antibiotics, or cryo-sleep. I try to keep those
| possibilities in mind whenever I get carried away with my
| fantasies of an _anopheles_ genetic bomb, but durnit, those bites
| do have a convincing way about them to persuade one to a "kill
| 'em all" disposition. Thanks for the paper, it was a very neat
| read.
| jcims wrote:
| Agreed. It boggles my mind that people are willing to just
| assume that all of the unknowns balance in our favor when it
| comes to wiping out mosquitoes. How many species has the human
| immune system had to adapt to more than mosquitoes? Yes they
| kill a lot of people, but its entirely possible that by
| normalizing the immune response against wide swaths of the
| planet they save a lot more.
| fezzez wrote:
| Mosquitos are the closest thing to a predator that we have.
| They're by far the animal that kills the most humans (outside of
| other humans), and it's been that way for at least 10s of
| thousands of years.
|
| We already know that billions of humans have genetic mutations
| that specifically are there to protect us from mosquitos. So I'm
| not surprised that mosquitos have specific adaptations made for
| us either.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| Imagine if dirty needles started flying around randomly targeting
| children. It constantly shocks me that mosquito eradication is
| controversial, let alone not one of the highest priorities of
| society.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| It seems like eradication is a blunt instrument approach to the
| problem. We know that some people are much more likely to get
| bit. How can it be so hard to determine the differing factor??
| To your point (and ignoring the extreme solution), why have we
| not put the requisite energy towards solving this problem?
| fguerraz wrote:
| OMG children! Therefore we must do something.
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| Ok.. do something, do something... how about we use cutting
| edge genetic modification technology to eliminate categories
| of life from the biosphere? Then afterwards we can talk about
| ethical implications and deal with unexpected consequences as
| the technology proliferates
| asddubs wrote:
| we've accidentally killed so many species, can't we just do
| this one single one on purpose
| timonoko wrote:
| I remember sitting in Kautokeino bus with an older Sami man.
| Dozens of mosquitoes just sat on his forehead just waiting for
| something edible. I was only semi-edible with DEET. But an
| Italian couple was totally. It was incredible to watch, I wish I
| had a camera. Blood bath and genocide.
| eitland wrote:
| There is a joke about mosquitoes in Northern Norway that goes
| like this:
|
| Two mosquitoes caught a soldier and one asked the other: should
| we eat him here or bring back home? To which the other mosquito
| answer: No, lets eat him here lest we want one of the big
| mosquitoes come and take him.
|
| Source: close friend who served next to the Russian border.
|
| I was south in Troms and down there they were so small we could
| easily kill them with a shovel or something ;-)
| cinbun8 wrote:
| We found the gpt-3 everyone
| riffic wrote:
| it makes perfect sense to me.
| ask_b123 wrote:
| I'm not sure why the comment is dead, but I also don't
| really understand the comment. Could you explain it please?
| timonoko wrote:
| I was trying to point out that Mosquito saliva produces
| somekind of deterrent and antigen. It takes only few
| bites and days to adapt with suitable genetic background.
| But Italians were offended and it turned into flame war.
| riffic wrote:
| I vouched your comment. I don't know why stuff needs to
| be downvoted to oblivion around here. HN voters, stop it
| and stop being so damn fickle.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| He's giving an anecdote. Mosquitos would land on a native
| man but not bite him. Some mosquitos bit him(timonoko)
| but he had DEET on so not many did. An Italian couple got
| very badly bitten and spent the trip trying to slap and
| genocide all of the mosquitos.
| nawgz wrote:
| I mostly agree, there is an omission of "edible" after
| "totally" that makes it read confusingly. However, I find
| the last sentence - "blood bath and genocide" - to be very
| out of place, to the point where invoking "genocide" to
| talk about some mosquitos getting swatted feels quite
| inappropriate.
| nitrogen wrote:
| Wouldn't the reverse reading make more sense, that the
| mosquitoes were creating a blood bath? And when did
| colorful metaphors become anathema?
| riffic wrote:
| it's metaphoric. Language can be used outside of its
| typical idiomatic expression.
| ineedasername wrote:
| We really seem to know extraordinarily little about how our
| bodies work apart from physical mechanics & electrical activity.
| I can't even put a % on the rest except that we have barely
| scratched the surface. From epigenetics to the brain, metabolism,
| and immune system, we have a long way to go.
|
| On the other hand, we've probably made more progress in that
| understanding during the past 100 years than in all of the time
| before that. So, if our rate of knowledge acquisition is
| increasing, maybe that upward hill isn't quite so steep.
| jes wrote:
| I was having a discussion with a friend yesterday and we got
| onto the topic of vaccinations.
|
| To my knowledge, while we can develop a statistical assessment
| of a vaccine's safety, we can never know how the vaccine will
| affect a specific person that takes it. My argument here is
| that the human body is so fantastically complex that no two
| cases are ever the same, and so the only way to know how a
| vaccine will affect a person is to run the experiment, by
| having them take it.
|
| I think this is one attribute of what are called "Wicked
| Problems": The only way to know if a change is going to be an
| improvement or not is to make the change and see how the system
| state evolves forward in time.
|
| Is this roughly correct?
| skulk wrote:
| It points to an interesting gap in discourse around vaccines.
|
| One side (the mainstream) claims vaccines are effective and
| safe. The other side, claims that no, we do not in fact know
| that the vaccine is safe and therefore you should not get it
| and take your chances with the disease.
|
| The problem is that we don't in fact know that the vaccines
| are truly safe for everyone, because mRNA technology (while
| incredible) is new, but from my personal interactions I've
| observed that most intelligent people see that getting the
| vaccine increases your expected quality of life given you've
| never had COVID before. However, those who don't believe this
| will take any claim made by the mainstream (vaccines are
| safe) as evidence that they are hiding something, further
| deepening their suspicions.
|
| This is a feedback loop; the more people that refuse the
| vaccine, the more the mainstream will push for more
| vaccinations, causing more people to refuse the vaccine. All
| because the nuance of "we don't know that this is as safe as
| taking a walk in the sun, but we have solid evidence that it
| improves your E[QOL]" isn't easy to communicate.
| endgame wrote:
| More precisely, "the other side" claims that we do not in
| fact know the vaccine is safe, and points to all the other
| times "the mainstream" side lied to us as reasons to be
| skeptical: the US Surgeon-General told us "masks don't
| work", lying to manage supply, now they're critical; Biden
| said "get vaccinated, or wear a mask until you do", now the
| masks are going back on; Kamala Harris said she wouldn't
| take a Trump vaccine, now there's a big fight over mandates
| and passports; Fauci kept dangling a vaccine target just
| beyond what the country was tracking towards (there are
| articles where he's quoted as saying "I can nudge this up a
| bit"); Cuomo was hailed as some great leader despite
| sending covid-positive people into old people's homes (it
| was his sexual misconduct that finally sunk him).
|
| Hesitancy around covid vaccines isn't the antivax of the
| previous generation, and responding as if it was won't help
| anything. Actually having an honest conversation with the
| public that you're more likely better off with a vaccine is
| not an easy concept to communicate (as you correctly point
| out), but it would be a good first step in trying to
| rebuild that lost trust.
| Cort3z wrote:
| With this reasoning you can't know if drinking water is good
| for you without drinking it, so bringing vaccines into the
| mix has nothing to do with it.
| ineedasername wrote:
| We have a very bare minimum of knowledge for individual
| treatment, but only in a very few cases. There are genetic
| markers known, for example, to impact metabolism of specific
| medications, and there are tests (Genesight) to find out your
| own profile. So there is some _very_ minimal progress on that
| front. It 's a start towards personalized treatments, but we
| don't always know _why_ a specific genetic marker doesn 't
| work the same way or why an enzyme has such a large impact on
| things.
| dd36 wrote:
| Evolution says hi.
|
| I like Kevin Kelly's technium concept. We are merely an
| extension of evolution and our purpose is to continue it,
| which we do willingly and unwillingly.
| teekert wrote:
| Not really, we can test a drug on a large population and
| determine it to be effective on 5% of all people. With no
| further info you know you have about a 5% chance of getting
| better. With more research we may determine that for people
| with a specific variant in their DNA the succes rate is 60%,
| so you can be part of two groups. We can keep making it
| better, maybe never 100% but very from "a gamble".
|
| Would you say that hopping on a plane is an experiment in
| testing if it will crash? When you know it very likely will
| not?
| amelius wrote:
| Things can really speed up once we have robots that grow cells
| and perform experiments on them, and collect (big) data and
| automatically analyze the data.
| asdff wrote:
| People already can grow up billions of cells for experiments
| and use supercomputers to process terabytes of sequencing
| data with statistical modelling. The hard part isn't the
| scale, but designing experiments and figuring out what
| evidence is needed to answer specific biological questions.
| That stuff you can't speed up with robotic arms and more
| processor cores, it takes time for people to think about
| these things and have conversations with others about these
| topics.
| EamonnMR wrote:
| Not to mention the amount of time experiments take-suppose
| we want to know if a drug prevents an illness that takes
| decades to develop? Sure you can model it in a mouse, but
| to do that you need to know exactly what the parameters of
| your model are.
| amelius wrote:
| I'm not so sure about that. For example, with robots you
| can run "for GENE in GENOME do ..." For humans even
| thinking about what that statement does is a lot of work
| already!
| mythrwy wrote:
| It's not a one dimensional problem though. There is a lot
| of interaction between the various systems in a human
| body.
|
| To keep with the programming analogy, ya, you can see the
| SUM statement and that is necessary to understand, but
| what is it for? What is it's role in the larger program?
| Where do it's inputs come from? Where do they go? What
| effect does changing it have in other places?
|
| I do agree our knowledge of genetics etc. will be much
| expanded soon. But we'll probably also make some nasty
| errors.
| amelius wrote:
| > There is a lot of interaction between the various
| systems in a human body.
|
| Yes, the interactions are the interesting bit. Perhaps we
| can figure out the biological pathways at the cellular
| level by taking a systematic approach of turning genes
| on/off and turning their expression on/off, then looking
| at the expression of other genes. This is exactly what
| could be done by robots.
| ezconnect wrote:
| The problem is how do we sense and measure them. Once we
| invent the methods of sensing, measuring and observing a
| single process we need a million more for the other process
| and that takes time.
| amelius wrote:
| There are various techniques for that. For example with
| RNAseq you can measure which genes are expressed as a
| result of an experiment.
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