[HN Gopher] Ten Years of Bootstrap
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Ten Years of Bootstrap
        
       Author : ingve
       Score  : 164 points
       Date   : 2021-08-23 16:34 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.getbootstrap.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.getbootstrap.com)
        
       | throwawaybchr wrote:
       | I can't seem to get on board with the new hotness like Tailwind
       | and whatever else the cool kids are using these days.
       | 
       | I tried tailwind in a couple of projects. The dependency on
       | PurgeCSS seems to cause all kinds of problems - either with the
       | build tools or cause some unexpected bugs because I have the
       | additional responsibilities of keeping track of which classes
       | won't be caught by the parser for whatever reason.
        
       | paul7986 wrote:
       | Is flexbox the more popular/preferred responsive framework these
       | days, as IE is a thing of the past?
        
         | jagger27 wrote:
         | I wouldn't call flexbox a framework, really. Bootstrap itself
         | uses flexbox nowadays.
        
         | Brajeshwar wrote:
         | Flex is a CSS Layout Module - https://caniuse.com/?search=flex
        
       | Raed667 wrote:
       | I remember finding bootstrap when I was in school and it saved me
       | hours! And then I also found a Windows 8 "metro" theme for it [0]
       | I thought it made my web projects so cool...
       | 
       | 0: http://aozora.github.io/bootmetro/
        
       | Brajeshwar wrote:
       | Bootstrap was cool. LESS was cool back then but I hated it, so (I
       | believe so), I translated it to SCSS for the very first time
       | around early 2012. Well, someone published just few weeks after
       | me and I believed a lot of my codes were copied (as I could see
       | my own errors/bugs replicated in his). I got lazy but he keep
       | pushing updates and bug-fixes. Soon, I used his instead for a
       | very long time.
       | 
       | I remember this because I was approached to write a book on
       | Bootstrap and Sass by Packt. I believe that's when I stopped
       | using Bootstrap!
       | 
       | Looked up and found the old post (now deleted/pruned) in the
       | Archives -
       | http://web.archive.org/web/20120207101527/https://brajeshwar...
        
       | joshstrange wrote:
       | I know Bootstrap can get a lot of hate but it's given me the
       | ability to create things that would never have been finished/made
       | without it. It's a little like Electron in that way. I'm terrible
       | at design, just awful at it, but I'm pretty good developer.
       | Bootstrap lets me get my ideas in a working not-too-bad-looking
       | state whereas if I was doing it from scratch I would have given
       | up on a number of projects due to frustration and not being able
       | to see a path forward.
       | 
       | Bootstrap might not be the prettiest but it gets the job done.
       | I'm currently in the process of contracting a designer to re-
       | skin/re-design a product I made using a bought bootstrap theme. I
       | honestly doubt I'd have taken on this project (and executed it
       | successfully) or be able to pay a designer to do this so that I
       | can improve for next year's use of this project without
       | Bootstrap.
       | 
       | I have a ton of respect for designers and what they do but I
       | don't have those skills and often I either can't afford a good
       | designer or it's not something that the general public will see,
       | for those things Bootstrap is a godsend.
        
         | piyh wrote:
         | Making the jump from purely backend work to putting together a
         | web UI for my project was a huge undertaking. Bootstrap gave me
         | a solution that's better than I could have accomplished in any
         | reasonable amount of time and allowed me to focus on building
         | templates, writing my small amount of JS functionality,
         | containerization, hosting, and the 100's of other small things
         | that are needed.
        
       | mindcrime wrote:
       | Seeing this makes me feel old. Wow... where _does_ the time go?
       | Jumpin ' Jehoshaphat.
       | 
       | In a similar vein, I only just now started watching Alias, which
       | premiered in 2001. In one of the first season episodes, one of
       | the characters is talking about MEMS[1] and how it's "the next
       | generation's next generation." I was struck by that as I had no
       | idea that MEMS was as old a technology as it is.
       | 
       | Seems like everything is getting old so fast here lately.
       | 
       | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microelectromechanical_systems
        
         | jbverschoor wrote:
         | time goes to: recreating every single library in every new
         | language. Not-invented-here syndrome. Reinventing language
         | features. Webpack. Transpilers. 1000 leaky abstraction layers.
         | Undocumented projects. Unresolved bugs. Trying to create
         | applications in a document model. etc etc etc.
        
       | tomphoolery wrote:
       | but only 8 years of "lol this government website is bootstrap
       | isn't it"
        
       | peterkos wrote:
       | Bootstrap is one of the things that got me into web development
       | in middle school!
       | 
       | My first project was an exam study website. I made a couple of
       | Quizlet sets, embedded the study guide PDFs from teachers (and
       | made my own) into one page. It was a great way to procrastinate
       | on studying and "sort of" study myself.
       | 
       | I don't think I'd have done web development without it!
        
       | jrochkind1 wrote:
       | How do the core maintainers, no longer at twitter, get paid these
       | days? Is Bootstrap their main job, and if so how does it pay?
        
         | topherPedersen wrote:
         | One of the creators works for Coinbase, and the other is at
         | Github.
        
           | jrochkind1 wrote:
           | Oh wow! Do you know if their employers pay them to work on it
           | on-the-clock (how much of their job?), or if it's actually a
           | s spare-time/hobby project for them?
           | 
           | This kind of traditional way of getting paid while working on
           | open source (a company pays you a salary to work for them,
           | you work on open source in some of your time, you don't make
           | money _from_ the open source) sometimes seems like a thing of
           | the past for big /popular projects, interesting to see it
           | still in play here.
        
       | cutler wrote:
       | I remember the early days of CSS when Jeffrey Zeldman and Eric
       | Meyer were pushing the boundaries of what IE would allow and web
       | standards kicked and screamed their way into existence. Anyone
       | remember CSS Zen Garden? The thing is, though, you had to be
       | full-time front-end to make that stuff and that's why Bootstrap
       | was so successful for most of us who focus on where the real
       | business value is added.
        
         | pier25 wrote:
         | > Anyone remember CSS Zen Garden
         | 
         | Yes!
         | 
         | Blew ours minds back at the time.
        
       | westoncb wrote:
       | Curious if people have opinions on Bootstrap vs Material UI for
       | building responsive web apps in 2021.
        
       | pier25 wrote:
       | Bootstrap is really awesome.
       | 
       | People complain that it has a very recognizable style, but they
       | ignore you can use it in SCSS (instead of the compiled CSS) so
       | you can configure it to your leisure and make it look totally
       | different.
       | 
       | When using it in SCSS you can also strip modules you don't need
       | to reduce its size too.
        
       | autokad wrote:
       | wow what a ride. I discovered bootstrap a bit late, I think
       | August of 2013. It was so nice though, not having to worry about
       | a lot of CSS details and knowing my page looked ok on many
       | devices.
        
       | ThePhysicist wrote:
       | Really loved Bootstrap when it came out, but nowadays the style
       | and its way of doing things feel a bit dated. That said with the
       | current (good) state of CSS in browsers you can build your own
       | responsive designs without relying on a framework.
       | 
       | A negative effect of all these frameworks is that I work with
       | more and more frontend devs that just don't know their way around
       | (S)CSS, so if you throw them into a project that uses a framework
       | they don't know or (gasp) hand-crafted CSS they are completely
       | lost. Same thing with Javascript tooling btw, in a recent project
       | a frontend dev wanted to rewrite the whole codebase because he
       | was not familiar with Webpack and only knew vite (which is the
       | new cool thing it seems), so he wasn't able to work with the
       | existing code.
        
         | bdcravens wrote:
         | > you can build your own responsive designs without relying on
         | a framework
         | 
         | Except you'll build a framework. You'll add a bunch of classes
         | for frequently used elements (nav, modals, buttons, etc), SASS
         | variables, etc
        
           | JoeyJoJoJr wrote:
           | I don't really see a problem with this. Every bootstrap
           | project I've worked on has entailed lots of nasty and buggy
           | overrides that are hard get your head around.
        
         | cutler wrote:
         | Are you saying he didn't know JS or just Webpack? If the latter
         | there's no shame in that considering he knew a better
         | alternative, ie. Vite. That's like chiding someone for not
         | knowing jQuery when they're familiar with Webpack.
        
         | danjac wrote:
         | Something like Bootstrap is great when you don't need the
         | custom design or you don't have a CSS expert available. For
         | example, backend admin CRUD views and reports. It doesn't
         | matter if it looks a bit staid or dated, the end users just
         | need familiar and usable.
        
         | vptr wrote:
         | This. I wish more devs tried to utilize modern css and js
         | directly instead of relying on frameworks.
         | 
         | I try to do this for my own projects but there's gravitational
         | pull toward frameworks in companies.
        
           | bwship wrote:
           | Yea, I like to use a framework. But I think devs should have
           | the basics down about css. Like margins, padding, div vs.
           | span, etc. I remember reading a css book on vacation in Aruba
           | like 10 years ago, and just having the basics helps
           | considerably, especially when just trying to debug small
           | layout changes.
        
           | cutler wrote:
           | If CSS was not a hack upon a hack I'd be with you but going
           | back to the early 2000s I must have wasted weeks trying to
           | debug obscure CSS corner cases. Yes, we now have flexbox and
           | css grid to replace CSS-P but that has to work with all that
           | came before it. Anything which reduces the time sink of
           | messing with CSS is a blessing.
        
           | throw_m239339 wrote:
           | > This. I wish more devs tried to utilize modern css and js
           | directly instead of relying on frameworks.
           | 
           | Making any large front end application WITHOUT a framework or
           | a view library is just a bad idea, even today. There is
           | nothing in the DOM or spec-wise that is equivalent to the
           | power of React or Vue, period.
           | 
           | When it comes to CSS, the situation is better. Flexbox, CSS
           | grids, ... have made creating CSS layouts extremely easy. So
           | CSS kind of successfully brought in a lot of things that were
           | directly exploitable by front-end developers.
           | 
           | To this day, HTML and the DOM are JUST NOT RAD for complex
           | UI, period. Web components have a few nice ideas but a lot of
           | flaws (especially support on IOS). Whether you build your own
           | framework or use someone else library, you will absolutely
           | need something that sits on top of the DOM for large front-
           | end applications.
           | 
           | So it's not by choice that most front-end devs have to rely
           | on a framework. It's because the standards are not good
           | enough.
           | 
           | > I try to do this for my own projects but there's
           | gravitational pull toward frameworks in companies.
           | 
           | A simple example. you need a mechanism to manage the life
           | cycle of event handlers on your page, if your app uses the
           | history API. If you do so then you've already started writing
           | your own framework.
           | 
           | Web components failed to address a lot of stuff developers
           | use view libraries for. That's why it is not that popular.
        
           | ramraj07 wrote:
           | Tbh if you're not a guy whos not full time doing web dev then
           | you shouldn't say that. I've known html since 1997, and basic
           | js since 1999. It's exhausting as hell to keep up with all
           | the crap the field keeps making up. I just want a page that
           | looks simple, neat, responsive and shows what I want my users
           | to see. Bootstrap has been the only consistent thing that has
           | allowed me to do that. It allows me to spend a day or half
           | designing the page so I can get back to the data and the
           | backend which is where the magic happens for most people.
        
           | traceroute66 wrote:
           | > I wish more devs tried to utilize modern css and js
           | directly instead of relying on frameworks.
           | 
           | Its all well and good saying that, as long as you do not
           | value your time.
           | 
           | Personally, I would rather use a reasonably up-to-date
           | framework such as Bootstrap 5 because Bootstrap has already
           | taken care of the majority of those CSS hacks that are often
           | required to make things look right on various browsers.
           | 
           | And frankly, why re-invent the wheel ? Most "utilize modern
           | css and js directly instead of relying on frameworks" likely
           | ends up looking like "a lot of boilerplate with a few
           | customisations". So why not use Bootstrap for all the
           | boilerplate and spend your time more productively by focusing
           | on the customisations ?
           | 
           | P.S. JS is not a strict requirement for Bootstrap, it can be
           | used CSS-only. But one added benefit of Bootstrap 5 in
           | particular is they've removed the jQuery dependency.
        
         | codegeek wrote:
         | Easy to say now since we have more choices but bootstrap really
         | changed the game for non designers. We still use it in
         | production for our company and it just works.
         | 
         | Side note, for nostalgia, here is the HN posting on it from 10
         | years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2904355
        
         | idiot900 wrote:
         | Web development is not my job. I still use Bootstrap to very
         | quickly make a passable UI for internal projects. I'm really
         | glad not to have to spend time learning all that stuff.
        
         | gedy wrote:
         | I think too many people equate Bootstrap with just their grid
         | system, and then assume "oh I can do this with CSS easily now".
         | As a customizable baseline for styles and components it's much
         | more than that. It's saved me and my projects from writing tons
         | of bespoke CSS.
        
           | antidaily wrote:
           | I start a lot of projects with JUST the grid system (included
           | with SASS) and add anything else I need later (usually
           | buttons and modals).
        
         | beepbooptheory wrote:
         | Hearing anecdotes like this are so nice because it means that
         | maybe one day I can have one of those dev jobs where I can be
         | bad at CSS.
        
           | obstacle1 wrote:
           | The vast majority of dev jobs don't require you to be good at
           | CSS. Unless you're going for a front end position, which is a
           | small minority of jobs, it's not even a factor.
        
             | milkytron wrote:
             | Yup. I've been doing various backend work for most of my
             | career, and never once had to touch CSS for my work
             | responsibilities.
        
         | DrammBA wrote:
         | I don't understand the reasoning of that frontend dev, was he
         | hired to work on the toolchain or on the frontend product?
         | Because the tooling is almost irrelevant unless he was hired to
         | maintain the toolchain.
        
         | wruza wrote:
         | Frameworks like bootstrap have one big advantage: less creative
         | surface, more get things done surface. They are getting lost
         | not because they don't know css. They don't know what was on
         | your mind when you wrote it, and they usually have neither a
         | clue, nor clear documentation, no comments, no common practice
         | guide. Nothing. It is just a wall of fragile definitions
         | already crippled by some previous maintainer to the level when
         | any change explodes into a refactoring of a 20-page
         | interdependent mess. Any negative effect of a framework is
         | heavily offset by the fact that any handcrafted css is
         | eventually fucked up (if not right away), and it is not even
         | negative if a framework helps avoiding it.
        
       | wil421 wrote:
       | My bootstrap skills probably landed me my first IT job. I stay
       | away from front end work nowadays but I still use it from time to
       | time.
       | 
       | Thanks for all the great work over the years!
        
       | franciscop wrote:
       | Wait Bootstrap is _only_ 10 years old? I 'd have sworn it was 15
       | years old or so by now. I created Picnic CSS back in 2014 as an
       | alternative to the big and well-established Bootstrap project, if
       | Bootstrap was created in 2011 it means that it became the main
       | front-end project everyone was using in just under 3 years!
       | That's amazing, and congrats on the 10th anniversary!
        
         | alpha_squared wrote:
         | The front-end web realm was really eager for some sort of
         | standardized way of doing things. Every project prior to
         | Bootstrap required revisiting styles and starting from scratch
         | or creating an internal Bootstrap-like base that would be used,
         | which meant very little of that would be carried between jobs
         | for employees. This is also probably why the early days of
         | Angular and React were so unstable; mass adoption through
         | different versions which were still finding a stable approach
         | to iterative evolution.
        
           | brundolf wrote:
           | The Angular/React model also threw a huge wrench into the
           | Bootstrap way of doing things. The latter relied on a
           | smattering of ad-hoc JS for things like modals and tooltips.
           | It dovetailed nicely with jQuery, but I remember it was
           | wholly incompatible with Angular. There ended up being an
           | "Angular Bootstrap" package specifically designed for that,
           | and I remember it felt like a regression at the time that
           | everything would get siloed under these JS frameworks.
        
           | duxup wrote:
           | Yeah the horror show that is learning every rando dev's
           | personal CSS methods could be really painful.
           | 
           | When you just want to move a button ... "oh they're using
           | bootstrap" often saved a ton of time, for things that really
           | shouldn't take time.
        
           | ianhawes wrote:
           | Your comment is spot on.
           | 
           | Prior to Bootstrap, the concept of a purely CSS framework was
           | relatively foreign. Aside from jQuery UI (which of course
           | required jQuery and had limitations on styling) the closest
           | thing we had in the 2009-2011 period was reset.css and
           | 960.gs. Even rudimentary things like rounded buttons were
           | still impacted by the lack of uniform border-radius support
           | plus an IE6/IE7 marketshare greater than 30%.
        
           | testudovictoria wrote:
           | > _Every project prior to Bootstrap required revisiting
           | styles and starting from scratch or creating an internal
           | Bootstrap-like base that would be used_
           | 
           | I went through several projects where team leads laughed at
           | the idea of Bootstrap in their projects. They treated
           | Bootstrap as a bulky, unnecessary mess of a framework that
           | only inexperienced code monkeys used in spite of it being
           | small and modular.
           | 
           | The dumbest one of all was a team lead who turned out to have
           | little to no real world experience in decision making. He had
           | some help creating an internal CSS framework. It was
           | responsive, modular, mobile first, and had lots of builtin
           | classes for font/element sizes, colors, behavior, etc. Sound
           | familiar? His column-based framework was a terrible drop in
           | for Bootstrap. Even the class attributes were blatant rip-
           | offs, but the lack of robustness meant lots of inline CSS to
           | fix elements.
        
         | jrochkind1 wrote:
         | Yeah, it got popular quick.
         | 
         | I think the bar was _low_ for good design on the web, and they
         | did a really good of making it out of the box seem like  "good
         | design".
         | 
         | I remember the first time I saw an open source thing was
         | bootstrap based, without knowing what bootstrap was, I
         | immediately asked "wait, what did you use to make it look that
         | good, and how can I use it?" I could guess it was using some
         | third party tool, it was just so much better than typical.
        
         | antidaily wrote:
         | Maybe you're thinking of Blueprint, which is about 15 years old
         | now.
        
       | dillondoyle wrote:
       | Not sure how valuable this comment is except as a thank you! I'm
       | once again back to bootstrap using VueStrap.
       | 
       | It's helped me learn(ing) vue and build fast. Just like the
       | original CSS bootstrap helped me learn a lot about CSS.
       | 
       | I still use some of their patterns like css 'classes.'
       | 
       | I'm indebted again and great to see the dev community keeping up
       | with new tech! For me taking templates and editing and building
       | on them is a great way to pick something new up.
        
       | gjvc wrote:
       | I wish they'd kept the original 3D look-and-feel of the 2.3.x
       | series (the one with 3.x looked slightly different) distributed
       | with all the major versions since (as an option).
        
         | duxup wrote:
         | I work on some products with a variety of bootstrap versions.
         | 
         | Some like 2.3.x style look really nice IMO.
         | 
         | Style is cyclical.
        
         | caslon wrote:
         | You can just theme modern Twitter Bootstrap to have the old
         | 1.1.1 or 2.x aesthetics. It wouldn't take that much effort.
        
           | gjvc wrote:
           | well-volunteered. Do you have a link?
        
             | moreshadow wrote:
             | * {             background-image: linear-gradient(a big
             | shadow);             border-radius: 5 million pixels;
             | box-shadow: 5 million pixels;               text-shadow: 5
             | million pixels;         }
             | 
             | ...that should get you most of the way
        
             | caslon wrote:
             | I said _you._ _My_ CSS frameworks all emulate styles from
             | long before Twitter Bootstrap was a thing, and I 've always
             | found every iteration of _it_ to be incredibly ugly. I love
             | writing CSS, you should also. It isn 't that hard to
             | emulate just about any style, _especially_ when you 're
             | just theming an existing CSS framework like Twitter
             | Bootstrap. In its case, you can get halfway there by just
             | checking what the gradient parameters, border-radius and
             | button sizes were.
        
               | gjvc wrote:
               | > I love writing CSS, you should also.
               | 
               | No I shouldn't.
        
               | caslon wrote:
               | You should. It would get you what you want, in this
               | instance.
        
       | dorianmariefr wrote:
       | Nobody mentioned it, so I'm just going to say: "tailwind"
        
         | reidjs wrote:
         | Is another viable frontend design framework to use.
        
       | brundolf wrote:
       | My first introduction to web development was in a summer of 2012
       | internship at HP. I used Bootstrap and... jQuery Charts I think?
       | to make an internal dashboard that would visualize data dumped
       | out of a SQL database (it was also my first introduction to SQL,
       | and to ASP.NET).
       | 
       | The server-side code would just scrape the entire dataset and
       | dump it directly into the client-side script as one big array,
       | lol. And then the UI could filter and narrow the data from there.
       | It was goofy, but it worked.
       | 
       | My love for the web began there, and Bootstrap honestly
       | contributed to my experience. Aesthetics are important to me, and
       | the fact that I could so easily make something that looked nice
       | was really gratifying. I haven't really used Bootstrap for
       | anything else since then - I quickly fell in love with and got
       | comfortable with handwritten CSS - but I'm glad it was there at
       | the start.
        
       | zuhayeer wrote:
       | 22% of all websites - what a stat! Incredible what such a small
       | focused team was able to accomplish.
        
         | conradfr wrote:
         | Must be 80% of intranet / admin tools.
        
       | Trasmatta wrote:
       | I remember the first time I saw a friend's site made with
       | Bootstrap, around 2011-2012. I was so impressed by his design
       | skills!
       | 
       | ...it was about 6 months later I discovered what Bootstrap was,
       | after noticing half the websites I was visiting looked just like
       | his.
        
         | ratww wrote:
         | I also remember when developers that only knew and used
         | Bootstrap started appearing.
         | 
         | A university I worked at had a beautiful internal website,
         | designed by a Design professor there and tested in students
         | using all the famous methodologies. A few months after I left,
         | a couple new developers were hired and decided to nuke the old
         | design and reimplement it all using Bootstrap because they
         | didn't know CSS/JS.
         | 
         | It was never the same.
        
           | radicalbyte wrote:
           | It was exactly the same with jQuery - there were a legion of
           | people (older than me!) who could only "code" with jQuery.
           | They'd never seen window.getElementById().
        
             | bdcravens wrote:
             | As someone who started writing Javascript in 1997, when it
             | came around, I would default to jQuery unless I had a very
             | good reason not to.
        
               | jacobsenscott wrote:
               | jQuery still provides an objectively superior (more
               | expressive, concise, and compatible) API for the dom.
               | Yes, the cut an paste "you don't need jquery" solutions
               | work 90% of the time. But jquery works 99.99% of the time
               | and cover more of the gnarly edge cases that exist even
               | on modern browsers.
        
             | kolanos wrote:
             | > It was exactly the same with jQuery - there were a legion
             | of people (older than me!) who could only "code" with
             | jQuery. They'd never seen window.getElementById().
             | 
             | No, they'd seen window.getElementById() but quickly
             | realized that DOM API manipulation wasn't consistent
             | between browsers. The whole reason jQuery was created in
             | the first place was to abstract these browser
             | inconsistencies away into a single API.
        
           | jonny_eh wrote:
           | > I also remember when developers that only knew and used
           | Bootstrap started appearing.
           | 
           | They're called "new" developers. They don't have the same
           | skillset of "experienced" developers. Luckily, "new"
           | developers become "experienced" over time.
        
             | radicalbyte wrote:
             | If your skillset is HTML + CSS then you're not a developer.
             | You're more of a web designer.
             | 
             | Or a masochist if you're actually trying to code with it
             | (being turning complete).
        
               | mdbauman wrote:
               | I once had a "Lead Frontend Developer" who mostly did
               | HTML and CSS (and was quite good at it) and could get by
               | with jQuery to do various visual effects. We had a large
               | contract to maintain a site that used AngularJS, and he
               | convinced all the higher-ups that writing all the
               | frontend code was my job because "Angular is more of a
               | backend thing."
               | 
               | I don't think I'd consider this guy a frontend developer
               | given that he couldn't be bothered to learn a framework
               | that falls within his job description. But we also had a
               | UX team to actually design the visuals, so I don't think
               | I'd put him in the designer camp with them either. What
               | was he? "Lead CSS Guy?"
        
               | jonny_eh wrote:
               | If anything, a software engineer is more likely to reach
               | for a CSS library like Bootstrap instead of designing and
               | implementing their own styles.
        
               | radicalbyte wrote:
               | There are plenty of people who call themselves "frontend
               | developers" whose skill set is: HTML, CSS + image editor
               | (photoshop, indesign or whatever the current fad is).
        
               | ratww wrote:
               | This kind of position is still pretty common in the
               | enterprise and enterprise-centric consulting shops.
               | Sometimes those developers are also called "designers" or
               | "web designers" (despite doing more development/image
               | editing than design itself). Btw, often the job-title is
               | given by the company. Makes it kinda hard for developers
               | to progress their careers.
        
               | Lammy wrote:
               | Reminds me of all the times I've seen licensed engineers
               | gatekeep the word "engineer" from us computer people :)
        
             | ratww wrote:
             | _> They 're called "new" developers._
             | 
             | Not necessarily. There's still plenty of experienced
             | developers with multiple years of experience that only know
             | a very limited set of technologies. And for years before
             | Bootstrap, inexperienced developers often knew CSS and a
             | bit of JS. And there is nothing wrong with those
             | developers.
             | 
             | My post is not a judgement on beginner developers, I think
             | you're projecting this. It's rather a lamentation of how a
             | certain technology ended up affecting both design and
             | learning negatively.
             | 
             | Also, I find it extremely wasteful and un-pragmatic to
             | rewrite a well designed website from scratch for no benefit
             | other than to the devs themselves. It was a loss for not
             | only the students and teachers of the university, but also
             | for those developers.
             | 
             |  _> Luckily,  "new" developers become "experienced" over
             | time._
             | 
             | Not really if they actively avoid learning.
        
               | ramraj07 wrote:
               | Negative is subjective. This is like someone shitting on
               | the model T and Ford because now bugattis and Rolls
               | royces aren't being found in streets commonly.
               | 
               | Bootstrap democratized accessible design. It might be
               | vanilla and bland but no one had trouble navigating a
               | bootstrap site so "negative" is a subjective judgement
               | here.
        
               | ratww wrote:
               | Nobody is shitting on anything. This is a very
               | uncharitable reading of my comment.
               | 
               | Just because Bootstrap had some very good aspects,
               | doesn't mean it also didn't have some negative ones. I
               | find this idolatry of tools a very troubling aspect of
               | our industry. It should be possible to reflect on the
               | negative aspect of good tools without someone saying
               | you're "shitting" on it.
               | 
               | Also notice that I never complained about Bootstrap being
               | vanilla or bland. The issue here was that something well
               | designed and well tested was rewritten from scratch and
               | replaced with something that ended up being inferior for
               | no reason other than misguided developers.
               | 
               | And "no one had trouble navigating a bootstrap site" is a
               | bold claim, considering how flexible it was. In fact the
               | main issue with the website I mentioned was the worsened
               | navigation introduced by the developers.
        
             | kolanos wrote:
             | > They're called "new" developers. They don't have the same
             | skillset of "experienced" developers. Luckily, "new"
             | developers become "experienced" over time.
             | 
             | In my experience, the "experienced" developers produce
             | inaccessible messes. While Bootstrap continues to be a web
             | leader in accessibility.
        
       | taesu wrote:
       | Here is to another great century for bootstrap!
        
       | runawaybottle wrote:
       | It's important to give respect to jqueryui and bootstrap for
       | defining the core ui components for the web all these years.
        
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