[HN Gopher] I Don't Want to Be Like a Family with My Co-Workers
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I Don't Want to Be Like a Family with My Co-Workers
Author : kakakiki
Score : 339 points
Date : 2021-08-21 10:24 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thecut.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thecut.com)
| philliphaydon wrote:
| I always considered the team I was in, in Singapore a 'family'.
| By family we would always help each other out, and work together
| to ensure the team's projects finished and there was never bad
| blood between any of the co-workers, /try/ to go to lunch
| together (due to religion / diet restrictions we would often
| change lunch up to cater for everyone)
|
| But it was never about working late (which i actively
| discouraged, to the point i yelled at the guy who sat across from
| me one evening because he kept staying late, and he had a family
| with 2 kids at home). We worked together, succeeded together,
| failed together. Never threw anyone under the bus, took
| responsibility together.
|
| Our team was super productive, delivered a lot of good work,
| rarely ever caused production issues as the features were well
| tested... compared to the other teams. Knew the domain and the
| code really well. Then covid hit and management decimated the
| team overnight. I was absolutely gutted, made me so sick to my
| stomach I couldn't work for a week.
|
| Co-workers being a 'family' in a business will never work with
| upper management being included.
| specialist wrote:
| I have so many examples, good and bad.
|
| I started working for a civil engineering firm in high school.
| Best job I ever had. Sent around the country to set up and train
| CAD systems. The adults had adopted me. Then I started college
| (working part time), got sick, somehow lapsed my paperwork. This
| company backdated my insurance premiums (fraud), paid my bills,
| to make sure I got a life saving bone marrow transplant. No
| strings.
|
| OC references Zoom scavenger hunt and being a team player. Heh.
| Worked at a startup. Really intense. Coworkers that you both love
| and hate at the same time. We had a big shot boss that would
| punish us for a job well done with group events. Box seats at
| football games, open bar at jazz concerns. I demurred from a Las
| Vegas excursion. Oh boy. You'd've thought I killed the boss'
| prize puppy. Didn't repeat that mistake.
| thinkharderdev wrote:
| > punish us for a job well done with group events
|
| I had a hearty laugh at that one. "Hey all, I know you've all
| been working like crazy to get this project over the line so
| I'm going to "reward" you with more time at work, only now
| you'll be forced to make awkward small talk with people you may
| or may not have ANYTHING in common with."
| achenatx wrote:
| I have asked my HR and team not to use the family analogy. We are
| team and support each other as team mates. We do help people when
| they are sick etc. Ultimately we are trying to achieve a shared
| goal and I want to company to help people to achieve their
| personal goals at the same time.
|
| I manage using the book first break all the rules and 5
| dysfunctions of a team.
|
| First break all the rules uses these 12 employee sat questions
|
| I know what is expected of me at work.
|
| I have the materials and equipment to do my work right.
|
| At work, I have the opportunity to do what I do best every day.
|
| In the last seven days, I have received recognition or praise for
| doing good work.
|
| My supervisor, or someone at work, seems to care about me as a
| person.
|
| There is someone at work who encourages my development.
|
| At work, my opinions seem to count.
|
| The mission/purpose of my company makes me feel my job is
| important.
|
| My associates (fellow employees) are committed to doing quality
| work.
|
| I have a best friend at work.
|
| In the last six months, someone at work has talked to me about my
| progress.
|
| In the last year, I have had opportunities to learn and grow.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| >> At work, I have the opportunity to do what I do best every
| day.
|
| Where can I get paid to constantly annoy people?
| inaseem wrote:
| I am currently in the same situation. I joined a reputed service
| based company after graduating last year. This is what I am doing
| in the projet. 1. Deliver the work on time. 2. Helping my team
| members. I wasnt saying NO initially. 3. Understanding
| requirements. 4. Production deployment.
|
| Things I dont want to do. 1. Delivering other team members work.
| 2. Connect on call with team members more than 5 times for the
| same issue. 3. Explaining the requirements to team members who
| intentionaly did not listen carefully during the call and later
| messaging _Hey what was the new requirement?_. 4. Picking up
| gossip calls from team leader. I did not wanted to do this, but
| team leader keeps pushing.
|
| Yesterday I asked my team lead that how all this is affecting me
| both mentally and physically.
|
| Guess what. He sent an email involving upper management and
| ordered me to carry on.
|
| F*k them and the project. I resigned. And I am happy that after 2
| months I will be parting ways with the company and will have some
| peace of mind.
| merrywhether wrote:
| Of the problems the advice-seeker's company has, odds are that
| simply being a non-profit is the root cause. My wife has worked
| for several (large and small), and it is distressing how many of
| them are run as almost anti-profits, resistant to common good
| business practices out of some weird misunderstanding of what
| "non-profit" means. It's been depressing watching so much money
| and good intentions wasted at these places on boondoggles; I'm
| not saying that all for-profit businesses are perfect by any
| means but they at least understand that obviously losing money is
| generally bad, whereas she's seen even some quite well-known non-
| profits be actively resistant to things like trying analyze and
| optimize the impact of the money they spend. This atmosphere has
| then given rise to all kinds of weird second-order effects.
| Unfortunately, that may be the only place they feel they can work
| on their passion issue, but if not, getting out entirely is their
| best bet.
| H8crilA wrote:
| People would love to do that much more in for-profits too, it's
| just that reality kicks in faster. As a director or VP or
| [insert role] your influence is primarily counted in the number
| of people that report to you, and only then in the actual
| output that they deliver. It has always been the case and
| probably always will be.
| fortran77 wrote:
| A family doesn't fire you when economic circumstances change.
|
| I see too many people whose core identity was the place where
| they worked. When they got laid off, they became extremely
| depressed.
| oblak wrote:
| I spent a bit of time working as an executive delivery boy for a
| professor that used to say "This is not a business. I always
| thought of it more as a cheap source of labour, like a family"
| gswdh wrote:
| I'm exactly the same as the person in the article. I'm
| introverted and don't enjoy participating in activities with more
| than a couple of people. I have no problem doing it - I just
| don't like to. It seems gender or race can't be questioned in the
| work place but the way I like to socially interact with others
| can be and used against me (like in the article).
|
| I think managers etc get a bit carried away with the whole family
| idea thing. It can be used like a weapon to convince people to
| work longer to help their 'family members' with their work. But
| who gave them too much work in the first place?
| osacial wrote:
| Well, think about it from that perspective where you are an
| business owner. Your business is part of your extended family
| and if someone does not feel great about being part of your
| extended family, they rightfully will be booted out and the
| sooner that happens the better for company.
|
| As an introverted person I can only suggest for you to make
| your own business or go freelance, because you are not going to
| change rules for other people how they should behave only
| because your comfortable family scale is much smaller.
|
| Any business is a family - the problem here is that it is not
| yours(or you don't perceive it as yours).
| h4x0r12345 wrote:
| From the perspective of a business owner, an employee is
| someone paid to do an actual job. They either do the job they
| are being paid to do, or they're fired. They're not part of
| the business owners perceived extended family unless the
| business owner is mentally ill. Employing someone to be a
| pseudo-family member is psychotic and probably illegal.
| eplanit wrote:
| A good response when the company starts with the "we're a family"
| BS, is to reply (with a smile on your face, to be safe) "good,
| then nobody can ever be fired!". It can be a lighthearted way to
| point out the absurdity of the concept.
| drivingmenuts wrote:
| This. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for finally articulating
| something I have always felt.
| Lio wrote:
| This makes me laugh. My firmly tongue in cheek take:
|
| The whole family thing is just management hypocrisy.
|
| I mean very few families take Grandma out back to be shot so they
| can save enough food for the head of the family to have a new
| private jet.
|
| "Sorry kids, you're not getting any presents this year but
| Daddy's getting 300% more presents than last year. So every cloud
| has a silver lining eh?"
|
| Better to be more like Ron Swanson and be a contractor.
|
| We are not friends. You pay me to do a job and I do it well in
| return.
|
| You don't bullshit me and I don't get upset when you want to stop
| paying me for whatever reason.
| Steve_Baker77 wrote:
| Another HN paywall.
| Cosmin_C wrote:
| The biggest red flag at a work place is being welcomed "to the
| family". The second biggest red flag at a work place is being
| told at induction that "we work as a team over here".
|
| It's patronizing and implying that you have no idea what you're
| on about and they're here to set the record straight. And "we're
| family" and "we work as a team" usually means you're the one
| upholding all the obligations and responsibilities that come with
| that whilst having none of the benefits nor any authority.
| verdverm wrote:
| I recall advice once that you should think of co-workers as
| teammates rather than family.
|
| - A family should accept you no matter what
|
| - A team requires you to make the cut
|
| Both have comradery, the latter accounts for contributions to the
| group
| dpcan wrote:
| Maybe I didn't read it close enough, but workplaces that want
| their employees to be "family" are destructive to the actual
| families they have at home.
|
| I actually attribute my divorce in part to my ex wife's workplace
| making her truly believe that they were her "family".
|
| Everything there became more important than us. She called them
| her family and it was hurtful to our's. I could write an article
| myself on this, but wanted to put it out there.
|
| When work crosses the "family" boundary, it's going a step too
| far.
|
| We are coworkers. We get the job done 40 hours a week (should be
| 30). We go home to our families.
| archsurface wrote:
| Agree. I had a similar experience, to a lesser degree, with an
| ex-girlfriend.
| RalfWausE wrote:
| A long time ago i worked for a medium sized company where the
| boss constantly claimed that 'we are a family'...
|
| It turned out he was right with his 'family' claim, albeit more
| in a 'The Godfather' sense
| osacial wrote:
| Historically the very first slaves were family members...
|
| I'm laughing, that you are so surprised that it took you time
| to connect the dots. :D
| mehphp wrote:
| This is one part of the Netflix culture I agree on. Companies are
| more like sports teams than they are families.
| bluedino wrote:
| Isn't the old saying, you can choose your friends but you can't
| choose your family?
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| I stress to my reports that work is work, and that there are
| boundaries between the two.
|
| That doesn't mean lack of kinship and lack of empathy.
|
| Working extra during high-priority projects? Expected.
|
| Downtime and looking the other way to allow recuperation? Also
| expected.
|
| Getting reassigned or fired because you're hindering the team or
| business? Not at all great, but expected as well.
|
| It's a team, not a family.
| goodpoint wrote:
| Absence of healthy boundaries has nothing to do with "family".
| NullPrefix wrote:
| Like a Family culture opens grounds for perpetual alimony
| payments after you're divorced from the family.
| mysterydip wrote:
| One place I worked did the whole "family" thing... right up until
| they unceremoneously laid me off without warning to save their
| bottom line.
| blitzar wrote:
| Been there, got the t-shirt.
|
| Ironically the one person that leant the most on the 'family'
| is the last person standing, having personally seen off the
| entire group one by one over a 12 month period of time. It
| turns out the old timer who 'doesnt need the money anymore'
| will chuck plenty of young peoples careers under the bus to
| keep on getting paid.
|
| That said I dont regret jumping on a plane with them at 10
| minutes notice and flying across the country to help get them
| home when their kid died suddenly.
| prox wrote:
| This is the big difference. People pick up on this nonsense
| quite fast. I don't mind companies being cold in their layoffs,
| but don't pretend you are a warm/friendly company when you
| aren't. If you what you are as a company is different from what
| you say, you create a big rift. Companies can go down just by
| that attitude (seen it happen a couple of times)
| archsurface wrote:
| We have a company wide meeting every other week literally called
| the "family meeting". My team members are so different from each
| that there is generally zero chit chat on slack, all day, every
| day - required questions/answers only. Family? This is just HR
| trying to show their worth with their latest simpleton ideas,
| just as the tech side has silly ideas like scrum, etc. We've
| recently started getting company wide emails with a big "Kudos"
| banner when somebody you don't know has done something that means
| nothing to you. Because we're a tight-knit family. Is this combo
| cargo culting meets gaslighting? You will be family - look into
| my eyes - you will be family. It's somewhat patronising, and I'm
| not sure it even makes sense with recent HR diversity pushes - we
| put in oil, then water, now mix like they're the same sort of
| things; a simplistic metaphor, but it sums up my team. We're
| there to do the work - maybe HR should give the Fantastic Four
| movies a rest.
| intricatedetail wrote:
| Companies look at all sort of ways to manipulate workers into
| giving up value without adequate remuneration. Preying on family
| values is particularly disgusting. It's an immediate red flag for
| me.
| taxcoder wrote:
| And neither do I, at least with all of them. I have had some work
| friends who were close. Have I stayed in touch with any of them?
| Out of five jobs in ten years, there are two I still consider
| true friends, the kind you call when you are in a jam.
|
| While I'm griping about such things, let's talk about bosses day
| and company outings and gifts for fellow employees for $reasons.
| If I work for you, I do it because you offered me a paycheck. I
| feel no responsibility to buy you a gift. I don't want gifts from
| you. We have a contract or similar agreement - I work, you pay.
| Gifts either direction, company trips, whatever feel like a sham
| and muddy that agreement of I work, you pay. To other employees
| when I was one - do your work, avoid drama, and I'll like you.
| Keep the gifts out of it and don't try getting into my wallet
| because Sally has worked here for ten years. If I work closely
| enough with Sally to know she is good at her job, I'll let her
| know. If I don't work that closely with her, what more do I need
| than politeness? /soapbox
| evgen wrote:
| Some people are like you and simply view a job as an economic
| transaction, and some people think that since they are spending
| a large portion of their day with a particular group of people
| there is little downside to making friends and socializing. I
| will tell you a little secret though, when push comes to shove
| I will cut 'economic transaction' employees in a heartbeat
| without a second thought but I have sometimes gone out of my
| way to give a 'work friend' a break or spend a portion of my
| week finding them an internal transfer. I feel no enmity
| towards those who are a bit more mercenary than I, but I also
| do not have even the slightest bit of loyalty to people who
| make their attitudes in this regard clear (i.e. learn to fake
| it now and then and you might do better...)
| taxcoder wrote:
| I have faked it and do when needed. It insults my inner
| economist, but he puts up with it. As far as work friends, I
| have had them, and some I really enjoyed. I think we would
| have given breaks or spent part of our week for each other.
| That said, I have a very hard time separating value from
| productivity. The socializing crowd, on the other hand, seems
| to see value as coming from being a member of the
| organization.
| h2odragon wrote:
| The other way around, working with family, often fails miserably
| too. It's as if the two modes of life conflict.
|
| Working for family sucks. At least slaves aren't _usually_
| expected to show gratitude. Who wants that in their workplace?
| OwlsParlay wrote:
| A "like a family" feeling isn't going to happen while one or more
| members of that family have total power over wages and employment
| of the rest. My relationship with my boss and my fellow workers
| isn't like that of a family, unless my Dad was paying me to work
| 40hrs a week and could kick me out of the house any time
|
| The only way you'll get anything close to a family feel is
| something like worker democracy / worker co-ops. Bosses need to
| stop trying to force a culture onto a workplace and actually
| treat their employees like people.
| technothrasher wrote:
| Team building exercises and helping others with their projects is
| hardly what makes co-workers "family". I've worked full time for
| my company for 38 years. I've helped people with their homework
| to get through school, celebrated marriages, babysat, visited
| them in the hospital, celebrated holidays, supported them through
| cancer, looked after their house while they were away, hired
| their kids, threw retirement parties, and unfortunately attended
| seven funerals. That's when co-workers become family. I don't
| think it's very common in companies any longer.
| [deleted]
| a4isms wrote:
| The precedent for building obedience by describing your
| organization as a "family" goes back a very long way.
|
| The most notorious example is probably The Family International,
| a cult founded in California in 1968:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_International
|
| I don't refer to companies or other organizations as families, or
| even "like a family." There are better metaphors when you aren't
| trying to manipulate people, and not describing your workplace as
| a family also avoids provoking the trauma for those employees who
| have issues with their family of origin.
|
| If you describe a company as being like a family, are you giving
| managers permission to cast themselves as authority figures over
| employees they will treat like children?
|
| It's safest to steer clear of describing companies as families,
| with employees as members. Pitfalls abound.
| bjornsing wrote:
| > If you describe a company as being like a family, are you
| giving managers permission to cast themselves as authority
| figures over employees they will treat like children?
|
| Many of the companies I've worked for (both as manager and
| individual contributor) function in this way. None of them
| called themselves a family though. Where I am (Sweden) this
| social structure is just the norm.
| human_error wrote:
| It's a well known fact that it's a red flag and you should move
| on to different direction if they mention they're like a family.
| Employment is a business relation based on a contract agreement
| of both parties. That's it.
|
| I was interviewing with a company and was genuinely interested in
| the position until they mentioned they were like a family. Sent
| them a not interested email after the meeting.
| elurg wrote:
| Why would anyone want this? I just want a workplace.
|
| Corporate collectivism is gross.
| kurtdavis wrote:
| Jocko has some good tips about this. https://kdalive.com/learn-
| leadership-skills-from-jocko/
| unabridged wrote:
| The first response to this should be "oh, so you are making me a
| partner". Family = shared ownership.
| sethammons wrote:
| Stock/RSUs
| rubyfan wrote:
| I work at a big corporate and we use a national workplace survey
| that asks if you have a best friend at the office. It's one of
| the measures or organization health.
|
| I see the survey results across a pretty big portion of the
| organization so I understand my answer is one of the lonely few.
| I always answer 'no' because I really don't have a best friend at
| work.
|
| A best friend is someone you like, enjoy loads of spending time
| with and maybe most importantly can trust with just about
| anything. It happens that I don't really have true friends at
| work but I have people I care for and would be there for if they
| needed. That doesn't make us friends, it makes us decent people.
|
| I try to keep a healthy level of separation between work life and
| home life. I don't want to know office gossip because I want to
| be able to continue looking at my colleagues as professionals. I
| also want the diversification that should I ever leave the
| company my whole life won't be blown up because it was attached
| to the company.
| thinkharderdev wrote:
| I've answered those sorts of surveys before and fwiw I always
| interpreted that question differently. It's not "is YOUR best
| friend a coworker" but instead "do you have A best friend at
| work" which should be true of anyone who has at least one
| friend at work (using friend in a fairly loose sense). I can't
| say I've ever had a long-lasting friendship with a co-worker
| but at every job I've ever had I had people I worked with that
| I considered friends. Even if you don't do stuff outside of
| work together you still spend more time with your coworkers
| than almost anyone else. And if you develop a relationship with
| your teammates where you can speak to each other frankly and
| trust one another's good intentions then that makes for an
| infinitely better work environment even if you don't generally
| discuss personal matters. Whether or not that counts as
| "friendship" is a matter of semantics but I think it is the
| sort of relationship that the question is asking about.
| newsbinator wrote:
| > I also want the diversification that should I ever leave the
| company my whole life won't be blown up because it was attached
| to the company.
|
| Your company wants the opposite of this. Leaving both your job
| and your family is a lot tougher than only leaving your job.
| geoduck14 wrote:
| >Your company wants the opposite of this. Leaving both your
| job and your family is a lot tougher than only leaving your
| job.
|
| Boss here. Please have a life outside of work. Get some
| hobbies, side projects, and friends. It makes you more
| emotionally stable and secure when upper leadership makes
| decisions that you think are wack.
|
| Also, making it difficult to leave actually decreases moral.
| Consider: your boss is abusive, but you can't quit because
| you can't afford a lower paying job - moral tanks.
| cblum wrote:
| > I have people I care for and would be there for if they
| needed
|
| That's my personal definition of friend, as long as it's mutual
| :) The level of intimacy may vary, but if the "being there when
| needed" component is there then I regard a person as a friend.
|
| I went through a couple of really hard life events during the
| pandemic, which was already hard enough. It was bitter to find
| out that some friends weren't really friends. On the other
| hand, some people I only regarded as acquaintances turned out
| to be friends.
| lexapro wrote:
| The only way I can explain this is that by "best friend at the
| office" the survey means office buddy. I don't think a lot of
| people have actual, true friends at their workplace.
| emerged wrote:
| I think office friendships are often somewhat of an illusion.
| When one or both leave the company, they may never interact
| again or only very rarely.
| compiler-guy wrote:
| I don't think that makes them not friends. A certain kind
| of friend perhaps, but still a friend. I have coworkers
| with whom I got along very well and then lost touch after
| one or the other of us moved along. But then we reconnect
| at conferences or new jobs and are glad to see each other
| and remember old war stories or to work together again.
| thinkharderdev wrote:
| I also had a lot of friends in college who I haven't seen
| since we graduated and went our separate ways. Life
| intervenes to end friendships all the time but it doesn't
| mean that we weren't friends to begin with.
| philwelch wrote:
| One of my best friends now is a former coworker, but I have
| drifted away from most of my old work buddies.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| This is very much my experience. I have a friend at the
| office, we had lunch together almost every day, but since
| WFH started in March 2020 I have barely spoken to him, just
| a very occasional email. I have physically seen him once. I
| have also never kept in touch with anyone I worked with at
| a former employer.
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| I think most people do. That's people you see all the time
| you are bound to develop some kind of relationship with them.
|
| I regularly still see at least one person from all of my
| previous jobs and have regular friendly interaction with
| more.
|
| It seems weird to me that you can spend so much time at work
| and not find friends there.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| I spent 17 years at a 70k+ tech megacorp. As a product
| manager for global cross functional teams, I interacted
| closely with >1000 people across all spectrums. Not once
| did I encounter an employee who regularly interacted with
| another outside of work related functions.
| dasil003 wrote:
| I have worked cross-functionally a lot as well, and I'm
| baffled how you would make such a matter-of-fact
| statement. How would you even know? If I do hang out with
| colleagues outside of work, I will generally not be
| talking about it as there's lots of potential for weird
| perceptions of favoritism or cliqueyness.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| You are right. I should have included the clause "that I
| was aware of." Considering that I spent a lot of time
| with many different groups of co-workers (including
| quasi-social activities), I would guess that I would have
| noticed a hint of non-work related friendship activities
| in some large % of those that I was interacting with.
|
| I should also note that this was a buyer of startups
| rather than an actual startup (no matter how much they
| gave lip-service to the idea that we were supposed to act
| like "a startup within a megacorp.")
| WastingMyTime89 wrote:
| > Not once did I encounter an employee who regularly
| interacted with another outside of work related
| functions.
|
| No offense to you but statistically 40% of people have
| dated a coworker at least once and people hold on average
| 12 jobs in their life so if you interacted with 1000
| persons there is a good chance that at least 30 of them
| were definitely interacting with a coworker outside of
| work related function.
| freedom2099 wrote:
| I actually do have a best friend at work! And to that very
| survey I answered yes! I regularly go out with some of my
| colleagues... go on trips during the weekends or even go on
| weeks long vacations!
| rdtwo wrote:
| I used to think the same thing but then I joined a team where
| there were lots of like minded folks of the same age and it
| turns out it is possible. There are multiple folks on my team
| that I'd hang out with on my off time although some of the ones
| I actually hung out a lot with have moved on recently. It's
| worth noting that it took a few years to integrate into the
| team which is longer than most folks stay at any job
| varispeed wrote:
| This certainly works if the workers are independent
| contractors and they are free to do different businesses
| together. When it comes to actual employment, that is a
| completely different dynamic. Many employees have to play
| being friends in fear of otherwise being perceived as
| difficult or unlikeable. You will never know if other
| employees hang out with you because they genuinely want to.
| musingsole wrote:
| >It's worth noting that it took a few years to integrate into
| the team which is longer than most folks stay at any job
|
| And if we as a culture can't address this, we are in for a
| very bad time.
| dghughes wrote:
| >When pressed, HR and her supervisor mentioned her absence from
| department-bonding activities.
|
| At an old job HR said that employees who unfriended a co-worker
| were guilty of harassment. I never heard that officially but I do
| believe it having worked there so long and how management acted.
|
| I had my status cut from full-time to part-time and posted it on
| my secured, friends only, locked-down as much as possible
| Facebook account. The next morning my manager called me 5 minutes
| after my work day began asking me to remove that comment ("or
| else" I assumed). He read to me verbatim what I had written, the
| time, even some of the comments to it so he obviously had a
| print-out or screen shot (doubtful HR could figure that out). I
| suspended my Facebook account until I was abruptly laid off four
| years later by the aggressive abusive manager I had complained
| about 8 years earlier.
|
| This is the same organization that cut the janitorial staff from
| three shifts to two day shifts and cut staff from a dozen to one
| person per shift. the same place that complained when you didn't
| submit your anonymous employee survey.
|
| Keep work and friends separate. HR works for the company not you.
| You trade your time for their money there is no culture.
| mkl95 wrote:
| I worked for several companies like this early in my career.
| Every seemingly healthy job eventually became awkward and toxic.
|
| Nowadays I work for a consulting firm. There are several cons to
| being a consultant, but one of my favourite things about this
| scheme is that employees only care about my work.
|
| To these people I'm the "X technology guy" who's there to take
| care of some projects. To my actual employer I'm the "X
| technology guy" they meet once in a while to discuss project
| progress.
|
| I find that I'm respected as a professional now, people value my
| work and seek me out for professional reasons instead of going
| for a beer after work. I clock in, get things done, and clock
| out. That's it.
| lars512 wrote:
| To be in a well gelled team with people you really care about is
| the best kind of working experience, in my view. That's the
| "family" dynamic.
|
| Still, people need to hold each other accountable up and down the
| chain at all times. Ideally that's done in a non-judgemental way.
|
| Nothing lasts forever, but perhaps a sign of a positive family-
| like dynamic is that an ex colleague still wants to come visit
| the old office for lunch once in a while, and people enjoy seeing
| them.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Some level of workplace socialization is enjoyable and I've made
| friends that way who I've stayed friends with. But nobody ever
| tells you a workplace is like family unless they're picking your
| pocket.
|
| That said, the letter writer is probably not benefiting from
| being so openly hostile to all social events.
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| My mom took a job at In Defence for Animals years ago. She went
| through the interview, and settled a measly wage.
|
| A couple of weeks in she asked about her check. All she got back
| was, "Oh we are all family here, and you are a volunteer."
|
| She being a lover of animals worked another week and left.
|
| The founder of the 501c3 passed a few months ago, but he was
| always paid well, and owned a lot of assets that look like funds
| were comingled?
|
| The only jobs where I heard we are all family here, were terrible
| jobs, and most employees hated when the few well paid employees
| would pull out the Family card.
|
| Under my breath, I always went to, "Yes we are family here, but
| the Manson Family?"
| nerdponx wrote:
| I think it's an open secret that charities tend to be tax
| shelters for wealthy individuals.
| GravitasFailure wrote:
| Heh. It seems that all the jobs that explicitly say they are a
| family are the dysfunctional kind, but the jobs that do have
| the best qualities of a family don't need to say so. Maybe I'm
| overgeneralizing a bit, but "we're a family" has always been a
| giant red flag for me.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| I've worked in a company like that. Leaving was the best decision
| I ever made, you can't explain emotional intelligence to people.
| NateEag wrote:
| As one who doesn't natively have a lot of EQ, my experience has
| been that people _have_ been able to explain it to me.
|
| It's not an easy or pleasant process, though.
|
| I strongly recommend Marshall Rosenberg's book Nonviolent
| Communication.
|
| It teaches a method communicating which, when followed, pushes
| you into introspection, understanding why your emotions are
| what they are, understanding what it is you want, and
| communicating those things clearly to other people.
| cbozeman wrote:
| I love _Nonviolent Communication_ , although I'm not good at
| implementing it and might never be. Research seems to know
| that so many of our traits are innate and are extremely
| difficult to change.
| andrey_utkin wrote:
| Stalin would be _killing it_ with Nonviolent Communication.
|
| Comrade Molotov! When I heard that your wife Polina
| Zhemchuzhina meets with Golda Meir, I felt scared because I
| have a need for security of my life and political position.
| Would you consider keeping working for me after I've arrested
| her using my secret police, charging her with treason, and
| sending her into internal exile?
|
| There's no way around the fact that having established power
| over someone makes it optimal to not care or otherwise push
| yourself to be virtuous towards that someone.
| NateEag wrote:
| For sure. Malicious actions will always be malicious, no
| matter how you talk about them.
|
| I see Nonviolent Communication as a useful tool for people
| who genuinely want to be kinder and more empathic but don't
| know how.
|
| It's not going to magically cure human nature.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| The workplace described in the article absolutely sounds like a
| hostile environment. The asker's bosses are using "family" as an
| excuse to justify working longer hours. Families don't do that.
|
| That said: Personally, I _do_ want my coworkers and I to be
| something akin to a family. If I'm going to spend around a third
| of my life working, I want to do it with a group of people I like
| and care about.
| cbozeman wrote:
| Reading bullshit like this article makes me realize why Joshua
| Fluke's YouTube channel is so popular.
|
| The jig is up. People aren't fooled any longer by corporate
| bullshit, and it's none too soon in my opinion.
| masklinn wrote:
| > Families don't do that.
|
| Families absolutely do that, and this was and is normalised in
| various contexts e.g. farm families, or older (and now fundie)
| families where the oldest are tasked with caring for the
| youngest.
|
| Lots of families are absolute shit, in a way which exactly
| matches the article:
|
| > Recently, however, a friend in my department was told she
| would not receive a promotion because she is not a "team
| player." When pressed, HR and her supervisor mentioned her
| absence from department-bonding activities.
|
| Not being there for a family reunion / holiday / birthday
| leading to long-term grudges with emotional and financial
| consequences? Yep. It doesn't take much (or many) for family
| politics to be worse than office politics, with devastating
| consequences to some.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| In hindsight, I wish I'd written " _good_ families don 't do
| that," but I meant it in the same sense as "families love
| each other" or "families look out for one another." Of
| course, there are many families that hate each other's guts,
| but when someone says their team is "like a family," they're
| not talking about those types of families.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > The asker's bosses are using "family" as an excuse to justify
| working longer hours. Families don't do that.
|
| ...are you sure?
| MrGilbert wrote:
| I'm currently in a situation where I consider quitting after
| almost 8 years working with really good people. But the company
| itself has some structural problems that we, as a small team,
| cannot change (as in "upper management doesn't see the
| problem"). And I have enough of this. As I don't have many
| people around me outside work, I feel hesitant to "leave my
| family behind".
| znpy wrote:
| I've been in a similar situation.
|
| I can tell you that many people left, and after years small
| groups of former co-workers formed at various other
| companies.
| bogomipz wrote:
| I have also worked a companies where this "reassembly" of
| former coworkers(more than 2) emerges at a new company.
| While I understand this might be seen as a good source of
| recruiting I think it can be potentially concerning that
| they're brining their old culture, allegiances and patterns
| into the new workplace. I would be curious to hear if
| people view this as a red flag.
| znpy wrote:
| I see your points.
|
| However, I don't think anybody would even try to bring
| anything from the old job if it's not worth it
| (technically/professionally) Nd valid in general.
| meowfly wrote:
| Your situation is is very similar to how mine was. I recently
| changed jobs after being on the same team for almost a
| decade.
|
| It's honestly a bit rough having to rebuild relationships.
| I'm working in completely new technologies, which is one of
| the reasons I decided to move, but it's kind of difficult to
| go from a place of 100% trust of your peers to uncertainty
| about how they perceive you.
|
| I've still been seeing some of my old team on weekends.
| pitched wrote:
| > I've still been seeing some of my old team on weekends.
|
| I think this is the key to it right here. The ones you
| chose not to leave behind were friends, not peers. After
| almost a decade, they probably are more family than friend.
| The rest of them though? Not even close.
| jjk166 wrote:
| If you have strong connections with the people and you are
| leaving for reasons they can understand and respect, there's
| no reason to equate leaving the company with leaving the
| family. It's more like moving out of your parent's house -
| you won't see them as much, and it'll become more of an
| effort to maintain your relationships, but all that history
| is still there.
| MrGilbert wrote:
| I like the "parent's house" analogy. Looking at it from
| this perspective, it might not be as bad as I picture it
| for myself.
| adwww wrote:
| I've just left a similar workplace and while I feel my
| reasons for leaving were right, I do slightly regret my
| decision.
|
| It's frustrating that too often management don't see the
| problems everyone else sees, and would rather waste $PS on
| recruitment than retention.
| Viliam1234 wrote:
| Recruitment means you need to spend money on the new
| people. Retention means you need to spend money on
| everyone.
| KSteffensen wrote:
| As a mid-level manager I do wish people would inform my of
| any problems before they sign with some other workplace
| instead of after. I can't fix issues I don't hear about
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| Another manager here; you also can't fix most issues you
| do hear about. You can sometimes prevent the problem from
| forming in the first place, but it's not on "people to
| inform you" of them. Your entire job is trying to catch
| the few issues you can address early and doing your best
| to shield your team from the rest of them.
| noirbot wrote:
| Personally, a lot of my experience is that my manager
| knows and understands the issue and is doing their best,
| but at some point there's only so much "managing up" they
| can do to prevent larger dysfunction in the org from
| effecting the team.
|
| I had a discussion with my manager about this the other
| week and they asked me to let them know if I was
| considering other work so that they could try to fix it -
| my response was that I didn't think that would help. By
| the time I'm considering another job it's _because_ I no
| longer think my manager can or will do anything to fix
| the issues I have.
|
| People generally don't leave companies when they feel
| like their manager would have been able to solve their
| issues with the company.
| cmmeur01 wrote:
| Most of the time these things fall on deaf ears, are met
| with empty promises, or middle management isn't in a
| position to change what needs to be changed.
|
| I left both of my last jobs for these reasons. It became
| a waste of time to go voice these concerns when my time
| would be better spent looking for a new job.
| ThePadawan wrote:
| > That said: Personally, I do want my coworkers and I to be
| something akin to a family. If I'm going to spend around a
| third of my life working, I want to do it with a group of
| people I like and care about.
|
| I find that admirable, but having gone through a number of
| different workplaces in the last 6 years, also very naive.
|
| Out of the hundreds of colleagues I had, I would voluntarily
| choose to talk to maybe 3 of them.
|
| I don't think I find 97% of people I encounter in general
| disagreeable, in my experience Software Engineering just has
| loads and loads of "that guy"s. You know, the ones you try to
| avoid at parties. Except that's most of them, so you don't show
| up to the parties in the first place.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > I find that admirable ... also very naive.
|
| That's quite harsh. Empathy and social bonding is normal and
| healthy.
|
| Yes, there are a lot of hypercompetitive working environments
| that train workers to see each other as contenders and
| encourage cynicism. It also depends on country you are it.
|
| But please don't assume it's the norm across all
| organizations (companies, no-profits, academia...).
| ThePadawan wrote:
| Of course not!
|
| I also wasn't trying to hint at competitive workplaces at
| all. In my experience, the far more prevalent workspace
| atmosphere is "just let me do my job, I just need to show
| up for 40h a week to pay the rent and feed my wife and
| kids".
|
| And that's fine! But that also doesn't lead to a familial
| work environment.
| moron4hire wrote:
| > Out of the hundreds of colleagues I had, I would
| voluntarily choose to talk to maybe 3 of them.
|
| That... also describes my extended family.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| > I don't think I find 97% of people I encounter in general
| disagreeable, in my experience Software Engineering just has
| loads and loads of "that guy"'s. You know, the ones you try
| to avoid at parties. Except that's most of them, so you don't
| show up to the parties in the first place.
|
| I should probably mention here that I'm not a professional
| software developer.
|
| I could have become one. I've always liked coding and working
| with computers--it's why I'm hanging out on Hacker News--and
| a lot of people in my life encouraged me to pursue that as a
| career. But I resisted, and if I'm _completely_ honest with
| myself, it 's because I didn't see programmers as the type of
| people I wanted to work with.
|
| Talking about this--even thinking about it--feels kind of
| ugly, because I know I'm stereotyping! And, there are
| _plenty_ of programmers who I consider wonderful people, some
| of whom I 'm even lucky enough to count as friends! But on
| average, across the broader population of people who pursue
| software engineering, I do think there's a lot of truth to
| the stereotype.
|
| (I currently work at a small graphic design agency, as a sort
| of bridge between the design and development teams. I'm
| eventually planning to get a masters in elementary
| education.)
| michaelt wrote:
| _> Out of the hundreds of colleagues I had, I would
| voluntarily choose to talk to maybe 3 of them. [...] in my
| experience Software Engineering just has loads and loads of
| "that guy"s. You know, the ones you try to avoid at parties._
|
| I absolutely understand what you mean! And I certainly think
| 'family' is an absurd way of thinking of work relationships.
|
| But if you were applying for a promotion, to become the
| leader of a small team of programmers, can you see how your
| reluctance to talk to your direct reports would make you
| unsuitable for the role?
| ThePadawan wrote:
| I personally find that there is a huge difference between
| talking to a coworker about their hobbies, or their last
| pull request.
|
| Talking about the job at hand is never an issue. But it's
| also best to leave it at that to keep the work environment
| constructive, and not e.g. split a team among party lines.
|
| (In my experience, we are now also talking about a purely
| hypothetical scenario. At the workplace I spent most of my
| career, team leads were generally hired externally, or
| promoted based on nepotism and "company loyalty" [read:
| years spent working at the company] rather than skill)
| christophilus wrote:
| It's not naive. I've found a place where I genuinely like and
| care for my coworkers. From personal experience, it is
| definitely worth the effort of looking for such a job.
| ThePadawan wrote:
| Thank you so much.
|
| I have been on the job hunt since May 2020 and have only
| come up against obstacles so far.
|
| It has really cheered me up to hear those words!
| prox wrote:
| I too found such a company. They are a bit rarer. Lots of
| companies just don't know how to manage people. You think
| with the thousands of management trainings that it would
| be so, but alas.
|
| A good company makes you happy, isn't a perpetual stress
| fest and makes good money as well.
| forty wrote:
| It's probably related to the fact that parent "has gone
| through a number of different workplaces in the last 6
| years". I have been working at the same place for the last
| 9 years, it's much easier to build a "family" that way.
| Also the company was tiny when I joined, which helped.
|
| Of course it does come with some downsides, like the fact
| that it's tougher when someone leaves. That's life I guess
| :)
| ThePadawan wrote:
| (Maybe I should have clarified that I was employed at a
| contractor for a while - so I jumped to a new "workplace"
| for every ~3-month project. I know that technically, that
| might not be considered a change of workplace, but for
| me, it meant a complete change in the colleagues I worked
| with on a daily basis.)
| forty wrote:
| I agree with you, it definitely counts as a change for me
| too. I don't think contracting is ideal to find a
| "family" like atmosphere because such places are probably
| reluctant to use contractors (there are other benefits of
| contracting of course).
| GuB-42 wrote:
| I actually like the workplace for the 97% of people with who
| I won't naturally talk to.
|
| They may not share all your hobbies and opinions but they are
| usually smart people. Like you, they landed the job and they
| are still there after all. They all have their own, rich
| world that you may not realize exist because they are not
| invited at your parties (and you aren't invited at theirs).
| If you keep an open mind 97% of people are interesting not
| 3%.
|
| The good thing about workplace "families" is that there is
| still some distance. You can have a look into their world but
| you don't have to be part of it if you don't want to. And you
| don't sleep under the same roof, don't share the chores,
| etc...
| ThePadawan wrote:
| I do try and keep an open mind :). And 3% was perhaps the
| low end of the scale I could have estimated.
|
| On the other hand, I do think you overestimate the skill of
| employees in general. Just ask around how many of your
| colleagues think they could pass the job interview for
| their current position right now - that percentage is
| generally pretty low (especially at places like Google,
| where interview training is basically a full-time job).
|
| Quite often, people that "are still there" are simply still
| there because they have made themselves indispensable, e.g.
| they write working software, but no other person can
| understand their code. Firing someone like that is a
| business risk - _not_ firing someone like that isn 't
| (immediately).
| merrywhether wrote:
| Maybe you're both right? They've found a team made entirely
| of people from that small population of potential co-workers
| with whom they'd form genuine friendships, and are reluctant
| to trade down to one composed of more so-called "that guy"s.
| shreddit wrote:
| In the last 10 years i switched jobs 2 times and i still have
| contact to most of my ex-coworkers. I wouldn't take a job if
| i dislike most of my coworkers.
|
| At some point it's not them, it's you.
| ThePadawan wrote:
| Thank you for your experience!
|
| And I totally agree. I have had to quit job interviews
| simply because both sides agreed that while we _could_ work
| together, we probably would both just have a bad time.
|
| But then I've also worked jobs where in 2020, employees
| still referred to things they thought were bad as "gay", so
| that's that.
| antisthenes wrote:
| How can you possibly know if you're going to like your
| coworkers without taking the job first and interacting with
| them?
|
| Good relationships take time to build.
| ThePadawan wrote:
| I kinda want to congratulate you on never encountering
| the sort of person you immediate and strongly dislike
| within 10 minutes of meeting them for the first time.
|
| I know everyone has an off day some time, but I literally
| had job interview video calls before where my prospective
| boss asked me questions, then interrupted my answers 10
| words in, for 20 minutes straight.
| antisthenes wrote:
| I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
|
| There are definitely such people that I've disliked
| within 10 minutes of meeting them, but they were
| extremely rare and they were total strangers who were
| usually freaking out in public over something trivial
| (not necessarily related to me)
|
| I've never encountered such people in my professional
| life (thankfully).
|
| > video calls before where my prospective boss asked me
| questions, then interrupted my answers 10 words in, for
| 20 minutes straight.
|
| Yes, that might do it. I wonder how others tolerate them.
| Koshkin wrote:
| Why should there be much of a difference? We do not choose
| our family (except, perhaps, one person), nor do we usually
| choose our coworkers. (Hell, we actually have more freedom
| there, if you take the choice of a workplace into account.)
| antman wrote:
| If I had gone through a number of workplaces in six years,
| interacted with hundreds of people and potentially liked no
| more than three, I would probably sit down and do some
| introspection.
| syshum wrote:
| >> would probably sit down and do some introspection.
|
| What now? Not in the modern era. No one take personal
| responsibility for anything, everyone else must conform to
| their worldview, their opinions, their lifestyle... Period
| no discussion.
|
| Nothing is wrong with them, everyone else is the problem
| ThePadawan wrote:
| I didn't say I didn't like them. I could work together with
| a vast majority of them just fine. Only handful of them
| were actively people I would not look forward to being in a
| meeting with, for example.
|
| But that doesn't mean I would invite most of them over for
| a beer, talk about politics, and still expect to have a
| good time.
| syshum wrote:
| >>that doesn't mean I would invite most of them over for
| a beer, talk about politics, and still expect to have a
| good time.
|
| The question is why? Because they would disagree with
| you? They would challenge your beliefs?
|
| I am finding that more and more. People want agreement
| and echo chambers, not debates and arguments.
|
| I love arguing politics, hell sometimes I will take a
| contrarian position just to have the contrarian position
| not because I believe / support it.
|
| Debate and augmentation is how with strength our
| principles, our worldview, and solidify our beliefs as we
| age. As a society (in the US at least) we seem to be
| losing the ability to sit down with people that have
| different politics, have a heated debate/conversation,
| but then still walk away as friends or colleagues. that
| is very bad for society over all
| [deleted]
| ThePadawan wrote:
| > The question is why? Because they would disagree with
| you? They would challenge your beliefs?
|
| No and no.
|
| Because I couldn't get a word in edgewise. And they can
| shout louder than me, and for longer. I have been in that
| meeting at work before, and I have left with a headache,
| and they with a sense that "they've won".
|
| Imagine trying to have a beer with Piers Morgan, or a
| member of the Westboro Baptist Church.
|
| Sure, it might be productive. But it wouldn't be fun, and
| I feel that was the premise - I don't think the idea of a
| "family-like atmosphere at work" was to imply "everybody
| hates each others guts, but still has to get along
| somehow".
| mindvirus wrote:
| Maybe "like friends" is a better goal? People who will go out
| of their way for you and want you to succeed, but where there's
| still shared expectations of how you behave and interact.
| Closi wrote:
| Judging from other comments this will be an unpopular opinion,
| but the work environment doesn't seem hostile to me.
|
| Their biggest issue seems to be that they, and their co-worker,
| didn't get promotions:
|
| > I am currently far exceeding my "assistant" job description
| and am also seeking a title/compensation change to reflect the
| project manager role I'm now performing.
|
| > a friend in my department was told she would not receive a
| promotion because she is not a "team player." When pressed, HR
| and her supervisor mentioned her absence from department-
| bonding activities.
|
| However i'm not sure that they are indicating the right
| behaviours for a promotion in their message.
|
| 1) They seem to think they should get a promotion without
| taking part in 'department-bonding activities', however taking
| part in these 'department-bonding activities' is ultimately
| part of being a manager in lots of companies (where your job
| becomes more about setting culture, building relationships and
| demonstrating the right behaviours).
|
| 2) They want a promotion, but are "resolutely firm on never
| working lunches or doing things outside of work hours". IMO
| Project Managers in lots of companies can't always have as firm
| boundaries about work and life as an assistant can, and there
| is an expectation that if things need to be done, they will
| stay late and work lunches to get stuff done when it needs to
| be done. That comes with the pay-packet unfortunately.
|
| 3) They think they should get a promotion, but describe the
| fact that they are seen frantically trying to get everything
| done in their current role, and tell people there is not enough
| time to join in on the company team-building activities which
| they appear to roll their eyes at - however the _actual_
| behaviour people should put on if they want to become promoted
| is to be like a 'swan' - i.e. rather than being seen to be
| busy and barely keeping up with your work, you are seen as
| gliding through your workload calmly while kicking vigorously
| under the water level, and still attending the social events
| _despite_ having lots of work on because you are able to
| balance everything.
|
| So it sounds like "I want to get a promotion, however I don't
| want to do the part of the role that involves taking part in
| relationship-building activities (other than sending a few
| instant messages), and won't accept being flexible with my
| hours or even having a working lunch if we are in the shit".
| rizzaxc wrote:
| yeah i dont get this woman. she wanna move higher up the
| ladder, but refusing to do "extra work" and excercising her
| presence in the company. how does she think she would
| function with the extra responsibilities?
| throw3849 wrote:
| It sounds awfully as unpaid overtime. If she is doing good
| job at 9-5, she should get a promotion.
|
| And it is kind of risky. Some colleague may feel harassed, or
| disagree with some personal views. Good way to get fired!
| walshemj wrote:
| And for salaried jobs you normally don't get OT you just
| mange your own time and take TOIL.
| walshemj wrote:
| Your quite correct here also:
|
| This is a charity and they are notorious as bad employers /
| workplaces.
|
| Its also not clear if the Job is a real professional salaried
| job or not - from some of the attitude I suspect its actually
| more of an admin blue collar role.
|
| And from how the person "presents" I suspect they would not
| be a good manager
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| >I want to do it with a group of people I like and care about.
|
| So not like my family then?
| arkitaip wrote:
| This touches on something very difficult when it comes to
| families: if you are lucky you end up with one that gives you
| a happy childhood. If you're super lucky that same family
| turn out to be the most supportive and fun people in you
| adult life. Most people simply aren't that super lucky,
| mostly because it actually requires lots and lots of
| conscience work across generations.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Yes, absolutely it is a cultural thing. Those with
| supporting families are very fortunate.
| blitzar wrote:
| Your comment made me think how alike a 'normal' family and
| a 'normal' workplace really are.
|
| Siblings (departments) compete for love (attention) from
| the parents (senior management). Hold a grude that they
| were not the favourite child (employee) and they had to
| make it all on their own unlike their little sister (new
| employee / product / competing department) who had it easy
| and had all the support (resources / marketplace) and help
| from their parents (management).
|
| One christmas (bonus round) my brother (colleague) got the
| toy (a big bonus) he really wanted, and I just got a
| skateboard (a bonus that is the same size but I am certain
| is less than the other guy got). My parents (boss)
| obvioulsy doesnt love me (value my contribution) as much as
| them.
| elric wrote:
| > If I'm going to spend around a third of my life working, I
| want to do it with a group of people I like and care about.
|
| I strongly agree with this sentiment. Above a certain wage-
| threshold, this is much more important to me than additional
| remuneration. I do some of my best work when I'm working with a
| good team with a high degree of trust, which is much easier to
| come by when I _like_ the people on the team. The current state
| of semi-permanent WFH has had a negative impact on this.
| ungamedplayer wrote:
| I think the WFH has had a positive impact on this, less
| meetings more actual discussions.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Huh, it's been exactly the opposite for me. Whereas before
| I could glance around the office, see who didn't have
| headphones on, and initiate a quick discussion when
| appropriate, I now need to actually schedule a Zoom meeting
| on the calendar.
|
| (This isn't a blanket argument against work from home--
| people have different prioritizes.)
| tonis2 wrote:
| Its horribly manipulative to force others to behave as a family
| members. Like pure hell.
| space_rock wrote:
| It's an economic relationship. Pretending that it's not is
| manipulative
| irrational wrote:
| I've known some coworkers for 15+ years. I'd say I'm
| friends/friendly with all of them, but I never have and never
| would want to do anything with any of them outside of work. I
| choose the friends I want to hang out with outside of work. I
| don't choose my coworkers.
| [deleted]
| psyc wrote:
| I worked on a team that felt 'like a family' once, and it was by
| far the best period of time in my career. I really don't think
| you can intentionally create that environment, though. It just
| happened due to the personalities involved. I couldn't have hired
| for it, either, since my first impressions of two of those
| personalities were negative.
|
| Of course, I immediately lost almost all contact with all of them
| as soon as I left. It may have been illusory, but it was
| definitely nice.
| AllSeason wrote:
| Even as a business owner I feel what the author of this article
| is saying. I once has an affiliate of my company play the "we're
| all family" card. And like the author, they used that as a tool
| to cross the line often and also required (mandatory!) attendance
| at social events. As you can imagine, it was only time before we
| were under the bus.
| sethammons wrote:
| Our former GM came from IBM. Work is work; a transaction. Under
| our then VP of eng, he internalized that humans are social
| animals and work gives us an opportunity to connect with people.
|
| For the article, I agree the term "family" is inappropriate. I
| also think that outside of normal hours get togethers should
| never be required. Schedule team building during work hours.
|
| As for the author, I think they may be at the wrong job for them.
| The teams prioritize helping over their own deadlines. He can get
| on board and be a team player or, if that is orthogonal to their
| work style, they should find a better match for work.
| Viliam1234 wrote:
| When the work is over, I prefer to be with my _actual_ family.
| thrower123 wrote:
| I too do not choose to join a cult.
|
| Best bet is to find rather boring lifestyle businesses with
| dependable b2b revenue streams. Nobody gets too worked up about
| anything, and there's no kool-aid to be drunk.
| Borrible wrote:
| Well, if you have nothing else to offer, one way or another you
| have to find loyal fools with a helper syndrome.
|
| After all, you're are not a patriarch, as was common for
| thousands of years, who could just tell his family what to do or
| not to do, and they obeyed without question.
|
| Or even sell your own children into slavery.
|
| This manipulative stuff is a bit disgusting and annoying, but it
| pays.
|
| At least it is a sneaky method to filter your prefered type of
| underling, but still look like a grand soul.
|
| So, a double win.
|
| Of course if you're into family fetish with a bit of sadistic
| gaslighting, it is even a triple win.
|
| A lot of people even like it that way.
|
| So it's a win-win, isn' it?
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| I've noticed that it's a strong signal whether a company does
| team building stuff during work hours outside of them. If they
| want you to show up Saturday or after hours, it's a red flag.
| Holiday parties seem to be the only exception to it being a red
| flag. But even then you'd better not be _expected_ to show up.
| someelephant wrote:
| Never ceases to amaze me how talented people so often fail to
| understand their worth and put up with this nonsense.
| xvector wrote:
| It's a similar thing with work-life balance. It amazes me how
| many devs are unwilling to set boundaries and work ridiculous
| hours.
|
| Also, people dealing with shitty compensation for years or
| staying at the same job, because they are afraid that no one
| else will want them or that they aren't worth 3x the
| compensation they have today.
|
| Also, people asking for meager raises instead of big ones.
|
| Recognizing your worth as a developer/individual is Step 1 to a
| better career and life.
| tkiolp4 wrote:
| > Also, people dealing with shitty compensation for years or
| staying at the same job, because they are afraid that no one
| else will want them or that they aren't worth 3x the
| compensation they have today.
|
| Well, perhaps it's just that tech interviews are really
| elitist these days.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Tech interviews at the highest paying companies are very
| difficult to be sure. It's not clear to me that they're
| elitist in a negative sense of that phrase.
| wccrawford wrote:
| I had an employer that was saying things like, "This is how
| it works everywhere" when I complained about things. I ended
| up finding a website that compared abusive workplace behavior
| to abusive relationships, and I agreed with it... And still I
| stayed there until they screwed me on a raise, asking me if I
| could "wait until next year?"
|
| I started looking after that and got a 40% pay raise starting
| out at the new job.
|
| I _knew_ what I was worth, and I still stayed. It 's not just
| about not knowing what you're worth or thinking nobody else
| would want you. Sometimes it's about not wanting to deal with
| the unknown.
|
| I absolutely encourage people who haven't gotten significant
| raises _each year_ to look at other jobs. You 're almost
| certainly underpaid, unless you're a senior dev. In which
| case you're merely _probably_ underpaid.
|
| That said, I've been here for 10 years and I'm happy. I'm a
| big fish in a small pond, and I have incredible job security,
| and I work the 40 hours that I want to. I know I could earn
| more, but now I value the rest of that more.
| noir_lord wrote:
| > It's a similar thing with work-life balance. It amazes me
| how many devs are unwilling to set boundaries and work
| ridiculous hours.
|
| I have a simple rule, if I didn't set the deadline/estimate
| _and_ it will require me to work over my hours then I simply
| don 't.
|
| I'm not going to be beholden to someone elses guess on how
| long something should take _if_ it requires more hours than
| my contract says.
|
| Which isn't to say I don't go over my hours occasionally
| (usually because I get lost in what I'm doing or it would be
| more efficient to finish it in one long day) but I generally
| take the time back later as well.
|
| Burnout is the end result of doing it differently (for me)
| and a) I refuse to put myself through that again b) it is at
| the end of the day a just a _job_
| cbozeman wrote:
| Because many truly talented people suffer from Imposter
| syndrome, or they do _actually_ know how good they are, and are
| afraid of alienating people by demonstrating superior ability.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| Like a family, eh? So let us see who from my office turns up and
| does my daily groceries, takes care of my kids and cleans my
| house if/when I am suffering from a sickness - doesn't even have
| to be a prolonged case, a few weeks would do. God forbid if it is
| prolonged - if the law of the land permits, the head of our
| "family" (a.k.a my boss) would, in varying levels of
| directness/corporate-speak, let me know what an "incredibly
| difficult decision" it has been to "part ways" before kicking me
| out of the firm. You know who are the people I can most expect to
| be actually there for me? My actual family.
|
| I know that all the families are not same and there are instances
| where one finds colleagues who go to great lengths to support
| each other while the dysfunctional family actually weighs things
| down. But that is not the norm (atleast not in the culture I am
| from). So if people of a firm use terms like "family", they
| better back it up. Otherwise, just shut up and give each other
| the space that grown-ups deserve.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| > You know who are the people I can most expect to be actually
| there for me? My actual family.
|
| I always phrase this as "you don't fire your brother because
| he's an idiot." Yes, in a severely dysfunctional family, there
| are valid reasons to cut ties with people, but, for the most
| part, this is both a true statement, and gets the right
| sentiment across.
| mgh2 wrote:
| Don't buy the corporate bs, it is all a scheme to increase
| productivity using tribal psychology: teams, cliques, bro
| culture, group identify, "us vs. them", etc.
|
| In short, they are using your upbringing/human nature to their
| advantage. Remote woke some into this reality/facade.
|
| https://m-g-h.medium.com/why-we-are-dispensable-7a577eba4f3e
| pythonbase wrote:
| They are family as long as you serve their purpose.
| mc32 wrote:
| The other big difference is in a family, with rare exceptions,
| no matter how poorly you do, you don't get fired or sacked.
|
| And, they also tolerate a lot more meanness and uncouthness
| than a company. You don't get fired for not following an
| employee handbook or code of conduct. In a family you get away
| with a lot.
|
| At work a minor transgression will get most non top managers
| fired due to lots of reasons but mostly liability and fragility
| from other "family" (colleagues).
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > The other big difference is in a family, with rare
| exceptions, no matter how poorly you do, you don't get fired
| or sacked.
|
| Your spouse can always initiate a divorce if your performance
| is lacking and fails to improve. Divorce on such grounds is
| quite common, I would guess.
| jrs235 wrote:
| Your analogy seems to be comparing the employee/employer
| relationship to a marriage rather than a family. If the
| employer is the parents of the family (more
| power/control/etc.) and the employees are children...
|
| Anyways, using the "we're family" idea in a company is bad
| because everyone's familial history and experience is
| different. For some "we're family" means regardless of how
| abusive the parents are, the children are to always submit,
| stay, and support them. For some, "we're family" means we
| don't tolerate laziness and lack of getting chores done and
| there are consequences for such. In other families that
| laziness is just tolerated.
|
| If a company wants to "be family" they better make sure
| everyone has a clear understanding of what that means or
| dig into the familial history and experience of all hires
| (I wouldn't recommend this).
|
| The better analogy for a company is "we're a team". People
| typically have a better understanding of how teams work.
| mc32 wrote:
| Yes, legal families can do that but most of the time it's
| triggered by extreme cases. Blood families expel you much
| less often.
|
| But this reminds me of the owner of Ritual coffee who had
| to "ban" and fire her husband from her shop because someone
| upset at where he parked (to do work for his wife) called
| him the "N-word". And he enraged asked, did you just call
| me "n-word?"
|
| So it wasn't his doing, but a perp, but answering the perp
| in kind got him blacklisted by the "community[1] and
| professionally by his own wife.
|
| [1]meaning busybodies who likely never patronized them
| store but felt they had to show their virtue. Never did
| they go after the instigator though. No, it was the guy
| defending himself.
| borski wrote:
| Do you have a source for this? Not that I don't believe
| you, I just have never heard of this and would love to
| read more about it.
| mc32 wrote:
| It was in the local papers: https://www.sacbee.com/news/c
| alifornia/article252033033.html
| binbert wrote:
| family is the wrong term. you only have one family, that is
| yours at home. the term "family" correlates with a lot of
| unconditional things you'll have to do. for your family you'll
| just do it but at work, you shouldn't have a bad conscience
| just because you leave before work is done or your real family
| calls
| boublepop wrote:
| Let's be honest here. Would your third cousin do all of that
| for you? No, ok, so let's not pretend all family equates to
| yourLoving SO, siblings or parents level of impact on your
| life. There are people with family who abused them in their
| childhood, with family members who are objectively terrible
| people. There are brothers and sisters who hate each other with
| a passion but still both show up to their cousins wedding and
| act nicely.
|
| Family only means that there is a bond between you that cannot
| be ignored independent of what you think of the people. And
| that being the case these are people you try to make the best
| of the relationships with because you know they'll show up in
| you life no matter if you like it or not.
|
| The comparison with co-workers is quite on point.
|
| If you want space from your co-workers quit. Because no matter
| how long and technically complex your education is, no matter
| if you are a wold leading expert in a narrow field, getting
| along with people is a core competence for anyone who doesn't
| either run their own one-man gig, or work in dark basement of
| an organization where everyone has given up on communicating
| through any other means than email.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| You should meet some Indo-Pak families sometime.
| User23 wrote:
| Or old stock rural Americans. There are plenty of towns in
| the USA that have extremely high social cohesion, because
| there are so many kinship networks going back centuries.
|
| Keeping in contact with your extended family is normal
| human behavior. This hyper-focus on the "nuclear" family
| and the "individual" to the expense of broader ties is
| what's unnatural and ultimately, if fertility numbers in
| the societies that adopted that outlook hold steady,
| unsustainable.
| zaptheimpaler wrote:
| So your coworkers are either family or you suck at
| communication and work alone in a dungeon, there is zero
| middleground. Got it.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| You can do pretty fine with very little non business personal
| chatting. Getting along with people has a huge range bro.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| > Would your third cousin do all of that for you? No, ok, so
| let's not pretend all family equates to yourLoving SO,
| siblings or parents level of impact on your life.
|
| Interesting that you brought up third cousin. My second
| cousin actually has helped me a lot - we didn't grow-up
| together or something, connected quite late in life due to
| family being spread out but he has turned out to be a very
| reliable person. But he is not my third cousin so maybe your
| point stands.
|
| So taking that further, what level should my co-workers be
| at? Should I treat them as I do my third cousins? I'm not in
| touch with most of them - should that be ok to do in office
| place too?
|
| > There are people with family who abused them in their
| childhood, with family members who are objectively terrible
| people.
|
| I already mentioned in my original comment that yes, there
| are dysfunctional families too that are a negative impact. I
| know its not all peachy out there.
|
| > If you want space from your co-workers quit. Because no
| matter how long and technically complex your education is, no
| matter if you are a wold leading expert in a narrow field,
| getting along with people is a core competence for anyone who
| doesn't either run their own one-man gig, or work in dark
| basement of an organization where everyone has given up on
| communicating through any other means than email.
|
| I never said that getting along with people was not a core
| competence - that would be a dumb position to take. However,
| becoming bosom buddies shouldn't be a core competence either.
| My expectation, to borrow from your wedding metaphor, is
| simply that it should be sufficient for me to show up to our
| collective office, do our job, act nicely AND fuck-off at the
| end of the day without having to deal with demands that only
| a family (and I mean the ones that can be reasonably expected
| to make them) should make. Because, well, we work for a
| corporation - we are not family.
| SergeAx wrote:
| What you talking about is service working. Family is not about
| someone doing your chores for you. It is about trust and
| support.
|
| I am not a big fan of calling a job "family", but I prefer
| having a good trustful and supporting relationship with my
| coworkers, including being mentored by my boss and mentoring my
| subordinates. But of course ones talking about family should
| put their effort and company's money where their mouths are.
| xboxnolifes wrote:
| > Family is not about someone doing your chores for you. It
| is about trust and support.
|
| Where I'm from we call those people friends. Family is
| reserved to those who are willing to actively make a
| sacrifice for you when you are in need.
| smoe wrote:
| I'd absolutely make sacrifices for friends and vice versa.
| Much more so than any relative that is not my direct family
| with whom I don't have any relationship beyond happening to
| be somewhat close on a family tree.
|
| It just seems, that the word friendship has been watered
| down a lot.
| wott wrote:
| > I'd absolutely make sacrifices for friends and vice
| versa.
|
| Don't hope too much for the "vice-versa", though.
| smoe wrote:
| I don't need to hope, I know from experience.
| SergeAx wrote:
| Social networks and Facebook in particular are deteriorated
| term "friend". For me people I can get "don't worry,
| everything will be fine" type of support are pals, not
| friends. Gotta try to figure out the difference between
| real friends and family, but sounds like they are mostly
| the same, except we may loosen contact with friends, but
| remain in tight with family.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| Support comes in many shapes. Sometimes it is about sitting
| together and sharing things. Sometimes, when you can't get up
| from the bed, someone helping with unavoidable chores speaks
| louder than words.
| strken wrote:
| I'd do that for some of the people I've worked with. One of
| them offered to let me live with him for a couple of weeks,
| others I've helped move house, or offered to invest in their
| businesses.
|
| The problem here is confusing the destination with the journey.
| I'm not loyal to them because top-down management told me they
| were family, I'm loyal to them because top-down management
| created an environment where I went to the pub with the same
| great people every couple of Fridays for years.
|
| EDIT: They also know damn well what the difference is between
| things I want and things the company wants, and prioritise the
| former while ignoring the latter.
| haswell wrote:
| I've vacationed with coworkers, stood up in two coworker's
| weddings, and I still keep in touch with a core group from a
| job I left almost a decade ago.
|
| To your point, this was possible because work provided an
| environment to meet these people.
|
| But for every person I'm friends with or still stay in touch
| with, there are 100 I do not. _Ongoing_ friendship has
| nothing to do with work, and everything to do with the people
| I met there.
| mlosgoodat wrote:
| Work and jobs are different things
|
| Work is generic
|
| A job is specific
|
| I like to work and work with people
|
| I hate my job which specifically exists because 2-5 people,
| founders, investors, eventually some manager, or some
| "owner" of socially valuable land or machinery, said this
| is the work they'll pay for.
|
| I'm not a family member or friend of people in a system
| like that. Since those people too kowtowed to doing a job
| for someone else, not finding work of value to their
| experience.
| trts wrote:
| Same, but ironically the bonds I made with those people
| were sometimes due in part to our shared experience of
| working in a bad environment with horrible management.
|
| Friendship seems very much a function of overall time
| shared together. School, work, sports, military, what else
| is there? ... even internet forums and email correspondence
| have netted me some long-term (IRL) friendships.
|
| When people get busy with commuting, family, house upkeep,
| demanding jobs, and distance, new friendship is all but
| impossible. This is probably the #1 topic on r/AskMenOver30
|
| > But for every person I'm friends with or still stay in
| touch with, there are 100 I do not
|
| probably 1000x the base rate for life generally.
| st1ck wrote:
| I've read quite a few stories where American parents kicked
| their grown-up child out of the house, so I don't know what to
| make out of it.
| Closi wrote:
| > Like a family, eh? So let us see who from my office turns up
| and does my daily groceries, takes care of my kids and cleans
| my house if/when I am suffering from a sickness - doesn't even
| have to be a prolonged case, a few weeks would do.
|
| It's a simile/metaphor, not a literal statement.
|
| When they say like a family they mean treating each other with
| kindness, friendship and compassion. They don't mean that
| everyone has to be around each others houses at Christmas.
|
| Everyone should try to have a heart of gold to their other
| coworkers (To be clear, this is a metaphor and doesn't mean
| that you should replace your own heart with one manufactured
| from gold. It would be an unsuitable material to build an
| artificial heart from).
| [deleted]
| heavyset_go wrote:
| That's called being a professional. There's no need to dress
| it up in language about family or friends unless you're
| trying to manipulate someone.
| ethelward wrote:
| > When they say like a family they mean treating each other
| with kindness, friendship and compassion
|
| We have a word for that: politeness.
| tayo42 wrote:
| > When they say like a family they mean treating each other
| with kindness, friendship and compassion.
|
| I think my family missed that memo
| nkrisc wrote:
| You just described being polite and respectful to colleagues.
| Being polite does not family make.
|
| It's an empty and hollow metaphor when your colleagues are
| nothing actually like family.
|
| I'm polite and respectful to most strangers I meet. Just like
| I am to many of my colleagues, who are effectively strangers
| to me.
| wg0 wrote:
| I forget where, but there's an actual psychological
| research outcome which says - we're kinder to strangers.
|
| As for family, we're sure kind but we're frank, open,
| honest and unafraid of a retaliation or revenge of too.
|
| This usage of "family" metaphor is a BIG and dishonest
| abuse of the concept IMHO.
|
| It's work, it might be boring, tiring, has to be done with
| utmost perfection, precision and professionalism with
| professional coordination of others possibly, in a group of
| people.
|
| It is a thing in its own right and needs no metaphors.
| Fnoord wrote:
| > I'm polite and respectful to most strangers I meet. Just
| like I am to many of my colleagues, who are effectively
| strangers to me.
|
| Well, I'm extremely happy to have a job where colleagues
| help each other out. Put less weight on a colleague who
| just went through something tough such as a long term break
| up or loss of a loved one by taking over tasks of her,
| letting someone who called ill take their time to get
| better instead of harassing them. Simple things which are
| common sense. Simple things you also do for your loved
| ones.
|
| Not every employer is like this, heck not every
| team(manager) is like this (teams in same company
| differing).
|
| There's a simple word for the opposite, a word I'm not a
| fan of, but it is there: toxic. Or: short-term benefits
| instead of long-term benefits. Or, my favorite: dumb egoism
| instead of smart egoism. Because, in the end, the family
| way is just that. A smart version of egoism, focused on
| long-term survival.
|
| The title of OP, seems someone who's worn down by the
| short-term egoism they experienced. Except, when reading
| the article, its not like that (it could've been). I know
| from myself, with my autism, I don't like certain team
| activities. But that does not mean I e.g. don't like (the)
| people. Its just that sometimes I prefer to be (left)
| alone. I made that very clear when I joined, and I've been
| open about my autism. My family knows this, too. I had to
| be alone for a while yesterday during a wedding. No
| problem.
| rectang wrote:
| > Everyone should try to have a heart of gold to their other
| coworkers
|
| But the company as an entity cannot and will not. It exists
| in the harsh environment of capitalist competition, and must
| often jettison "kindness, friendship and compassion" in how
| its human resources are treated.
|
| Individuals within a company can strive against its nature,
| but only up to a point before it either resists or perishes.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| Counterpoint: companies such as Costco or In-N-Out pay well
| above their respective industry averages, with excellent
| relative benefits, and yet are thriving.
| pessimizer wrote:
| That's only a counterpoint if you're suggesting that
| they're paying higher wages than average out of
| compassion, rather than because they've found it more
| profitable than the alternatives.
| peakaboo wrote:
| Yeah there is a word for treating eachother with friendship -
| "friends". Being friendly. This is already included in social
| skills.
|
| The company saying they want to be family is super annoying
| to me. It's a JOB, not a personal relationship you choose
| yourself. Saying it's a family implies you should feel
| loyalty to the company, when in fact, it's a business
| relationship.
|
| They are trying to blur the lines by saying family and its
| complete bullshit. I wouldn't even have a job if they didn't
| give me money for it, but I would have a family. See the
| crystal clear difference?
| mattowen_uk wrote:
| > _They are trying to blur the lines by saying family and
| its complete bullshit._
|
| Agreed. It's a psychological tactic to make their workers
| work harder. If your real family asked you to do a task
| that needed you to go out of your way to perform, you'd do
| it, because it's your _family_. Companies that try to push
| the 'we're like a family' angle are aiming to leverage you
| the same way.
|
| No company does something for nothing. If your employer
| offers you something unexpected, always ask yourself,
| what's in it for _them_ ?
| borski wrote:
| Your last statement is a bit unfair, as it implies that
| their goals are necessarily non-altruistic. Often, what's
| in it for them is increased employee happiness which
| leads to, yes, increased employee retention. That's a
| win-win, and not evil.
| pessimizer wrote:
| You're the one bringing up "evil." The people you're
| replying to are simply saying that the company is selfish
| and does not love you.
| borski wrote:
| Perhaps evil was a bad term, but the implication was
| there.
| unreal37 wrote:
| OK, so what if you don't want to be friends with your boss
| / co-workers. But have excellent work performance. Should
| this hold you back from promotion?
| borski wrote:
| If you are not friendly in the office and troublesome to
| work with / collaborate with, yes.
|
| If you simply aren't friends _outside_ the office, no.
| jrs235 wrote:
| >When they say like a family they mean treating each other
| with kindness, friendship and compassion
|
| Not everyone's experience and understanding of family follows
| that idea though. Some families treat each ruthlessly and
| expect all members to just deal with it and remain loyal.
| WalterBright wrote:
| > in varying levels of directness/corporate-speak, let me know
| what an "incredibly difficult decision" it has been
|
| It's not just corporate-speak, it's every politician and public
| figure speak. Modern virtue culture forces it.
|
| Whenever I hear someone say they are "deeply troubled" by
| someone else they don't know making an offensive remark, I have
| to laugh.
| effingwewt wrote:
| I would go so far as to say _any_ place that says 'we are
| family here' is actively trying to screw you.
|
| Every place I've heard this was a place with no wriggle room on
| anything- late 3x? Fired. Kid hurt and you need to duck out
| your shift? Fired. Need that weekend off for a funeral? Better
| have a death certificate or fired.
|
| They claim they are a family when it suits them only. I've had
| places spew that rhetoric all through training and once you hit
| the floor its _surprised pikachu_.
|
| I actually bought into it when I worked with HEB in South Texas
| as a night stocker. Until the lies started to show (no, your
| scheduled hours don't matter, you are off when the last pallet
| is stocked, no you are part-time now even though you were hired
| full-time since you're a hard worker and we need you to cover
| the shifts of the kids who call out every Friday/Saturday, no
| you can't change departments we need you, no you won't have to
| work frozen- except you will, without the pay bonus etc ad
| infinitum).
|
| The only way in which these places are like families is in that
| they are destructive, lying, backstabbing, political cesspools.
| I assume there are some families like that. Not what I imagine
| a family to be like however.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| >> the head of our "family" (a.k.a my boss) would, in varying
| levels of directness/corporate-speak, let me know what an
| "incredibly difficult decision" it has been to "part ways"
| before kicking me out of the firm
|
| The head of my family kicked me out of the house when I was 19.
| I'm sure it was a mildly difficult decision, and of course the
| correct one. But at least no boss that I've worked for has ever
| sold my first edition Dungeons & Dragons manuals at a fucking
| garage sale.
| prepend wrote:
| > But at least no boss that I've worked for has ever sold my
| first edition Dungeons & Dragons manuals at a fucking garage
| sale.
|
| I expect that's due to lack of opportunity rather than any
| superiority. I think if I left or got fired from a job and
| left behind D&D manuals, the company would definitely sell or
| surplus them.
| tilton234 wrote:
| If you noticed any suspicious act on your partner if he or she
| is cheating. You need to write Harish Negi over WhatsApp
| +91-8657-399-601, To help you remotely spoof on the target
| phone to retrieve text messages, call logs, social media
| activities, bank information and many more. They dont charge in
| advance, And deliver best services and get you the peace of
| mind you deserve
| alberth wrote:
| Sports Team.
|
| Reed Hastings (CEO) has the view I like. Companies should be like
| professional sports team. If you don't perform, you get cut.
|
| The problem with the "family" analogy is that it implies
| unconditional love even when someone repeatedly fails. Or having
| that family member who's a free loader and it's ok.
|
| Work should be about performing your best to achieve a collective
| goal and the sports analogy provides just that.
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/09/netflix-co-ceo-reed-hastings...
| karolsputo wrote:
| Sports team always sounds brutal and unforgiving to me.
|
| Having worked in a all-love-and-kindness-and-forgiveness German
| corporation and now in a young company with a lot of ambition,
| but definitely a sports team vibe I'd admit the latter yields
| more results, but they definitely come with a lot more stress
| in your life.
|
| Depends on what you are up for I guess.
| cbozeman wrote:
| > Sports team always sounds brutal and unforgiving to me.
|
| Good. _Life_ is brutal and unforgiving. This modern cushy
| plush lifestyle that many of us enjoy is unnatural. A little
| toughening up and suffering is long overdue. A lot of it, for
| many people in the world.
| TheGigaChad wrote:
| When someone shanks you and robs you will come here to
| whine like a little bitch, 100% sure about that.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| I happen to prefer lots of unnatural things, like medicine.
| Why is suffering overdue?
|
| Anyways, life for wild animals might be brutal and
| unforgiving, but mine isn't. I'm pretty happy about that.
| tyingq wrote:
| There do seem to be a lot of companies that didn't recognize the
| other side of the coin. When you take away pensions and replace
| them with a 401k, make layoffs a normal thing, and so on, you're
| saying "we are taking a risk-averse approach to our relationship
| with employees".
|
| Why then, are they surprised at the reaction of employees and
| still expect things like loyalty, "family", etc?
| tilton234 wrote:
| I wanted to monitor my partner's phone he was behaving weird from
| past few days, And i was not getting his phone in my hand, i was
| searching for hackers and i came across a service where they
| literally guide you how you can check your partner's complete
| phone, i am able to read his whatsapp chats facebook messages
| call records an everything remotely without my husband knowing
| anything about it i can share their WhatsApp +91-8657-399-601
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.md/9aU2W
| DanielBMarkham wrote:
| Three issues here.
|
| One, "like a family" is a _process_ , not an atomic label. It's
| not something you can just stick anywhere. Families are dynamic
| and a lot of work, frankly. Humans are messy.
|
| Two, even if the label meant something, it doesn't mean the same
| thing to each person that uses it. Sounds like some of these
| folks are jerks. This might be because of an idea of what family
| means that's much darker than other people's. Also there are a
| lot of jerks in the world. The writer doesn't seem to like a lot
| of people they work with either. That's all fine and well.
| Families choose many times to disengage and only be together
| during certain special events. The question is whether or not
| these kinds of families are what the slogan means. Who knows?
| Sounds more like a crutch used by management than a real concept
| that everybody can grok.
|
| Three, the author is playing right along. It looks to me like
| they're doing this passive-aggressive thing where the actively
| don't want to be like whatever this "family" label means to
| others at work and they also don't want to spend time with those
| folks. That's what they should say, to others. You just don't
| flip around a vague slogan and get something more useful. By
| translating it into the already vague "family" moniker, they're
| cheating themselves out of the opportunity to grow. "I don't like
| you people. You make me work too much, you're a bunch of assholes
| and I'm leaving." is a painful thing to say, and I'd wait until I
| have another job to say it, but rephrasing it as "I don't want to
| be like a family..." is just couching it in the same bullshit
| everybody is using. If you want to be that way, fine, just
| realize that you're doing the same thing as you feel is being
| done to you, i.e. using vague language to dodge difficult
| conversations.
| orestarod wrote:
| Perhaps it should just be rephrased in "I don't want to PRETEND
| to be like family...". The essence is the same. She does
| understand what is going on - that the "family" thing is utter
| BS and eats up uber valuable free and work time.
| mankypro wrote:
| And of course the mysterious "fit" decision in the hiring process
| shows this. Chances are more independent thinkers that don't want
| to beer bash with the crowd or that has actual social boundaries
| won't want to participate in the reindeer games the author
| describes.
|
| Clearly I carry a burning torch for the issue of age
| discrimination in tech as a 50-something - but seriously what 35
| year old veep wants a 50 year old with more tenure than them
| working for them in their group? Family? We care about work-life
| balance? yeah sure bubba.
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