[HN Gopher] Dumb Phone
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Dumb Phone
        
       Author : dredmorbius
       Score  : 132 points
       Date   : 2021-08-20 14:44 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (joindiaspora.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (joindiaspora.com)
        
       | Causality1 wrote:
       | _The frequency with which I need my email and a notebook while I
       | 'm on the phone makes integrated devices foolish._
       | 
       | If that's actually a common problem for this person then they
       | should start carrying a bluetooth headset. Personally I always
       | have my bluetooth earbuds in my pocket so I'll pop one of them in
       | if a phone conversation lasts more than a minute. The complaint
       | is incredibly silly because no one is stopping you from carrying
       | your phone and a headset and a notepad and all the other things
       | or even a second phone. You can totally go back to doing the way
       | it used to be done. This is like whining that your evening walks
       | are ruined because the light on your phone isn't as good as the
       | flashlight you used to carry. If you don't like it then use the
       | damn flashlight instead.
        
       | jjice wrote:
       | > They aren't available whilst a call is in process > They have
       | vastly less capability or flexibility than the systems they
       | replaced
       | 
       | I don't understand the first point because I can access my
       | calendar, email, contact, etc all during a call on my phone
       | without problem (Android 10).
       | 
       | The second makes sense if you look at it from the lens of you not
       | having infinite markup possibilities in your digital calendar
       | compared to writing whatever you want on a desk calendar, but my
       | calendar is with me everywhere. You can get a lot done with plain
       | text notes and the 'description' section of a calendar event.
       | 
       | I consider my phone an all in one productivity machine, not an
       | entertainment machine, and I think that works well for me.
        
         | inetknght wrote:
         | > _I don 't understand the first point because I can access my
         | calendar, email, contact, etc all during a call on my phone
         | without problem (Android 10)._
         | 
         | Not all phones could. Verizon in particular had a lot of phones
         | in the previous decade which couldn't access voice and data
         | services at the same time.
        
           | throw3849 wrote:
           | That is problem of low end GSM modules.
        
             | ianburrell wrote:
             | It is a problem with CDMA that Verizon and Sprint use. CDMA
             | can't do voice and data at the same time. Both Verizon and
             | Sprint have mostly migrated to LTE and VoLTE and are
             | retiring their CDMA networks next year.
        
             | acmdas wrote:
             | It's a poor person's problem, doesn't apply here...right?
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | The larger thrust of my essay is that simple feature checklist
         | marketing and product specification fails to consider a larger
         | ecosystem and workflow of usage. The fact that much of the
         | intelligence of the system was "women's work" (e.g., provided
         | by secretarial and switchboard staff), made it all the more
         | invisible.
         | 
         | Regarding the limitations of the post-1980s "smart phone"
         | ecosystem (both desk and mobile devices), the limitations and
         | UI/UX failures:
         | 
         | 1. Apply to a number of different devices. Not merely flagship
         | smartphones, but several other variations on featureful
         | telephony equipment, including a number of generations of
         | office phone systems (typically Rolm desksets), VOIP systems,
         | and consumer landline / wireless handsets, etc., with which
         | I've had direct experience. These tend to exhibit a range of
         | UI/UX failures, to a greater or lesser extent.
         | 
         | 2. The opening quote was from an aquaintance, who's more than
         | slightly technologically literate.
         | 
         | 3. The statement isn't absolute, but conditional. _Frequently_
         | implies  "not always".
         | 
         | Comments so far seem to miss both the focus on overall
         | workflow, and the nuance on feature completeness and/or
         | suitability.
         | 
         | Perhaps I'm a less effective communicator than I'd hoped.
         | 
         | Perhaps the technological blinders are more formidable than I'd
         | feared.
        
           | gambler wrote:
           | It's pretty obvious that most poster here don't understand
           | and _don 't want_ to understand your article. Most of them
           | are invested in software. Pretty bad software, probably. It
           | seems the only way they can feel good about what they use or
           | develop (often not by any real choice) is by constructing an
           | imaginary past where everything was absolutely awful and
           | comparing the current tools to such imaginary past. Anything
           | that undermines that meta-narrative must be immediately
           | responded to with shallow off-point comments to reduce the
           | cognitive dissonance.
        
             | dredmorbius wrote:
             | Thanks.
             | 
             | Part of the entire project is to see what the response is,
             | and how it responds (if at all) to different communications
             | methods.
             | 
             | Challenging assumptions, let alone slaying sacred cows, is
             | a fraught task.
             | 
             | And to correct a misapprehension: it's _not_ that the
             | 1970s-era office phone ecosystem was _better_. It 's that
             | it was _different_ than the set of affordances and features
             | of present comms devices and systems embody and the
             | underlying design understanding evidences.
             | 
             | In the earlier Reddit piece the article references, the
             | immediately preceeding concept addressed was Chesterton's
             | Fence. Many here are eager to move it.
        
         | filleduchaos wrote:
         | > I don't understand the first point because I can access my
         | calendar, email, contact, etc all during a call on my phone
         | without problem (Android 10).
         | 
         | This might be a weird question but are you always connected to
         | WiFi?
        
           | Jtsummers wrote:
           | I think you're alluding to the Verizon (IIRC) problem of data
           | and voice access not working simultaneously. So on a call,
           | you could use the device locally but not access anything via
           | data (aside from being on wifi). This was unique to them and
           | carriers using similar technology, since I don't use them I
           | don't know if it's still an issue (but suspect not).
        
           | jjice wrote:
           | When I'm not, I likely have mobile data service, and even if
           | I don't, my calendar and contacts are available offline and
           | sync once I'm online. Email won't be accessible, but I can
           | draft one and set a calendar reminder to send it later.
           | 
           | Not familiar with any issues with using data while on a call
           | as some comments have alluded to. I have Google Fi as a
           | provider and haven't experienced any issues with them, or
           | Verizon before.
        
         | ugjka wrote:
         | If you have VoLTE you can do data and voice at the same time.
         | But many networks and phones don't have that yet
        
       | deeblering4 wrote:
       | Well, the computer at the front of the desk does all of the tasks
       | listed and more, and it works independently from the phone.
       | 
       | The 1970s desktop was not portable. But when working away from
       | the office using only a phone, it's quite easy to switch
       | applications while on a call, just connect a headset or switch to
       | speakerphone. Laptop is an easy option for portability as well.
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | The PC + freestanding desk phone was an interesting variant. It
         | went through a few iterations, from sneakernet to dumb terminal
         | to (locally) networked, to fully globally interconnected. I've
         | lived through virtually all of that, and worked through much of
         | it.
         | 
         | The O'Reilly book _UNIX Power Tools_ gives a number of examples
         | of (mostly terminal-based) tools that could be used for office
         | productivity. I went through a number of grep-based (or
         | similar) phonelist iterations myself.
         | 
         | There's a critical difference between the disconnected, and
         | fully integrated system. The ability to look up a number on
         | your desktop (either directly or as a terminal), and manually
         | enter the number on a phone, is useful. It's not fully
         | automated (so no call-centre automation), but it also means
         | that the phone itself cannot exfiltrate data.
         | 
         | Note that phone numbers themselves are typically short and a
         | relatively dense namespace. The US 10-digit number allows a
         | theoretical maximum of 10 billion numbers ... actually somewhat
         | fewer given technical limitations. That's only about 30x the
         | current population of the US, meaning that if each person has
         | an assigned number randomly dialing digits will connect 1 time
         | in 30. That's a tractable search.
         | 
         | If the phone-number length were doubled, then wardialing would
         | connect only about 1 time in 10 billion. Exhaustive search for
         | active numbers would be infeasible.
         | 
         | But we'd all have to dial 20-digit numbers.
         | 
         | Or you could shorten the sequence by switching to lowercase
         | alphabet (14 characters), alphanumeric (12), or mixed-case
         | alphanumeric (11). If you used an 8,000 word dictionary
         | (roughly the length of EFF's Diceware passphrase generator long
         | wordlist), you'd need five words to provide a similar
         | namespace.
         | 
         | That is: there's a trade-off between the conciseness of the
         | namespace and the ability to abuse it for unsolicited calls.
         | 
         | (This is assuming that all phone spammers dial randomly, which
         | of course isn't the case, but it's the start of one approach to
         | addressing the problem.)
        
       | mortenjorck wrote:
       | The post isn't really comparing apples-to-apples, with the 1970s
       | workspace being a fixed place in an office, and the smartphone
       | being a mobile device that may be used in the field.
       | 
       | No productive office has replaced all those rolodexes and
       | notebooks with _just_ a phone; most have had them replaced for
       | the past 20 years with a desktop computer which has long
       | satisfied the  "components operated simultaneously and
       | independently of the phone" requirement.
        
       | NelsonMinar wrote:
       | Diaspora still exists?
        
         | leovander wrote:
         | That was the more important headline.
        
       | ehsankia wrote:
       | Isn't that the whole point of folding phones? Also android has
       | had side split windows for ever, and on modern phones that have
       | large tall screens, it works fairly decently.
        
       | throw3849 wrote:
       | I think author needs tablet. Some have 4g connectivity and can
       | make regular phone calls. Basically 10" phone.
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | I'd go with a laptop first.
         | 
         | Then an e-book reader. With WiFi but no SIM.
         | 
         | Then a very function-limited dumb-phone, with tethering
         | capability.
         | 
         | "The Case Against Tablets":
         | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/880e5c403edb013918e1002590d8e...
         | 
         | (Most of the meat is in comments to that post.)
        
       | DeadBeatDad wrote:
       | I used an iPod 5th generation for a few years as a phone (it's
       | basically an iPhone 5 without a baseband chip). I used the Skype
       | app to ring people and send messages.
       | 
       | Whatsapp is not compatible with iPods which I always found
       | annoying. This is because Whatsapp requires a SIM, which iPods
       | don't support.
       | 
       | Skype nagged me to update, which I couldn't since 5th generation
       | iPods are tied to iOS 9.3.5 _forever_ and can 't update. The 7th
       | generation iPods however have a later version of iOS and support
       | more apps.
       | 
       | Currently I have two phones. One is a dumbphone for normal calls
       | and SMS (You would be surprised at how much business is conducted
       | with SMS and calls). Then a smartphone which I NEVER use for
       | calls, just use it as a mini 'tablet' for surfing the web and
       | using Maps etc
        
       | ghostly_s wrote:
       | On a smart phone one can do any of these things while on a phone
       | call. I'm not seeing the point.
        
         | barbazoo wrote:
         | Yeah, at least on Android I know that it works that way. It's
         | not convenient, you either gotta use earphones or put the other
         | side on speaker but it works.
        
         | jowsie wrote:
         | It's only an issue if you're dead against using a
         | headset/earphones, or speaker phone.
        
         | glxxyz wrote:
         | Author of TFA seems to have never heard of using headphones
         | while on a smartphone call. It's like having the 1970s office
         | in my pocket.
        
           | filleduchaos wrote:
           | I don't know about the author but for me it's not about
           | headphones/being handsfree, it's the fact that the majority
           | of phones and networks right now cannot handle both a voice
           | and a data connection at the same time.
           | 
           | There's few things more quietly annoying than having
           | something (internet-reliant) that I was doing be interrupted
           | by a non-VoIP call, especially when it's someone I wasn't
           | expecting a call from.
        
             | deeblering4 wrote:
             | A lot of modern handsets are multi-mode and can switch
             | between CDMA and GSM once unlocked. But yeah ultimately
             | comes down to needing to select a GSM carrier.
        
               | filleduchaos wrote:
               | I own a Pixel 3. Is that now considered an ancient
               | handset?
        
             | glxxyz wrote:
             | Interesting- I haven't experienced that issue for about 10
             | years- I've no idea if 'the majority of phones and
             | networks' still have that problem though.
        
               | filleduchaos wrote:
               | I own a Pixel 3. Take from that information what you
               | will.
        
             | dredmorbius wrote:
             | It's a lot of both and then some:
             | 
             | - Phone-to-head maps poorly to using-phone-as-reference
             | (addresses, maps, calendar, notes)
             | 
             | - Even with speaker, headphones, earbuds, earpiece, etc.,
             | toggling between various apps is fraught.
             | 
             | - The mapping of functionality between digital and paper
             | formats ... varies. Digital most definitely does some
             | things far better (search most especially). Others ... not
             | so much. Arguing that digital is an unambiguous advance ...
             | is simply false.
             | 
             | . The device OS may decide it wants to kill specific
             | applications at any time, without notice, or apparent
             | consideration as to significance.
             | 
             | - My office desk phone never stole my contacts, or personal
             | diary, from my rolodex / paper notebook, either while I was
             | on a call or when it was left unattended. (I'm rather
             | surprised nobody's picked up on this particular element of
             | the piece and discussion.)
             | 
             | - Paper gives _working area_. A desktop is 30 or so times
             | the size of a sheet of A4. My 9 " tablet is larger than
             | even today's "phablet" phones ... but has only the display
             | area of two 4x6 index cards. Paper stacks, shuffles, and
             | turns right-angles (e.g., cross-stack sheets portrait then
             | landscape to create divisions) in ways that digital docs
             | don't. If I sort paper in a given order, it doesn't
             | periodically go off and decide it would rather be sorted
             | differently. Yes, the _total data density_ is low. But the
             | real access, input, output, and processing bottleneck isn
             | 't the paper, it's the human interacting with it.
             | 
             | I may have heard of headphones at some point. I'm checking
             | my notes.
        
       | chess_buster wrote:
       | When someone rings my phone, I put my airpods in and tap to
       | accept call.
        
       | wodenokoto wrote:
       | > It's almost as if putting your filing system, personal diary,
       | correspondence, photo album, and directory on a surveillance and
       | exfiltration device was a Bad Idea.
       | 
       | I hate that tone and way of arguing.
       | 
       | It is as if the author is accusing everyone of buying a
       | surveillance device and _then_ coming up with other uses than
       | being surveyed.
        
         | acmdas wrote:
         | It almost sounds ironic...and not everyone likes irony.
        
           | wodenokoto wrote:
           | No, it sounds sarcastic and condescending.
        
         | clipradiowallet wrote:
         | The author assumes that everyone(including our parents and less
         | than technical peers) _knew_ it was a surveillance device.
         | Saying like  "1984 is not a manual.." were considered by the
         | masses to be nothing more than a pessimistic saying. At some
         | level...myself and [likely] others really didn't expect it to
         | turn evil so quickly and so effectively. Meanwhile... the
         | devices got sticky - they are packed with ways to cause
         | addiction and enjoyment; filled with bread and circuses.
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | If I may speak on behalf of the author:
         | 
         | There's a great deal of frustration and fatigue in that
         | comment.
         | 
         | The expectation isn't that the general public would have been
         | aware of that risk. The general public is not sophisticated,
         | and has been greatly misinformed.
         | 
         | The technical world, the firms offering and provisioning
         | devices, the carriers, the financiers and banks behind this,
         | especially, are.
         | 
         | Technology is the art of balancing desired and undesired
         | effects.
         | 
         | For-profit business is the art of externalising risk.
         | 
         | And the heart of finance itself _is_ risk.
         | 
         | There's a very long record of cautions and warnings. They were
         | ignored, largely because in the short term and with suffient
         | levels of externalisation and arabitrage, those risks were
         | profitable.
         | 
         | https://toot.cat/@dredmorbius/105074933053020193
        
       | SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
       | I used a dumb phone for a few months last year. Ultimately it was
       | actually the difficulty of using iMessage on my other devices
       | conflicting with texting on my dumb phone that made it nonviable
       | for me and forced me to switch back to the iPhone.
       | 
       | There is a difficulty (at least in the states) of finding decent
       | flip phones with the exact level of dumbness that you need. And
       | they are all quite expensive too, due to the nicheness of the
       | product. I eventually found one reasonably priced on eBay
       | secondhand, which seems to be a common story with a lot of dumb
       | phone users.
        
         | squarefoot wrote:
         | Months ago I've purchased a Nokia 8110 4G which does exactly
         | what I need: calls, receiving confirmation text codes from the
         | bank or other services, occasional photos on the fly (quality
         | is not on par with most smartphones, but acceptable for some
         | uses), and 4G hot spot for the laptop. Never been happier. I
         | don't use it for texting though; coming from a qwerty
         | blackberry-like one, going back to the numerical keypad for
         | texts would be a nightmare. I paid it new EUR50 delivered
         | locally, but noticed the price skyrocketed recently and some
         | sellers ask over EUR400, which is absolutely insane. The price
         | inflation might be related to chips shortage, therefore waiting
         | a bit might be worth.
         | 
         | There is also community dedicated to replacing the factory OS
         | (KaiOS, a fork of Firefox OS) with a more free one.
         | 
         | https://gerda.tech/
         | 
         | https://sites.google.com/view/bananahackers/home
        
         | rjsw wrote:
         | Nokia HMD dumb phones are inexpensive in Europe.
        
           | CTOSian wrote:
           | and full of nasty bugs, visit the reddit.com/r/KaiOS/ for
           | more info
        
             | rjsw wrote:
             | Their really dumb phones run Series 30+ [1], not KaiOS. A
             | $20 phone can still have good call quality.
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_30%2B
        
         | swiley wrote:
         | The crap Apple does with iMessage really should be illegal.
        
           | Kaze404 wrote:
           | What does Apple do with iMessage? I don't have an iPhone and
           | always assumed it's just glorified SMS.
        
             | andrewla wrote:
             | When people with iPhones reply to someone who has switched
             | away from Apple, and they use "Messages" (which does both
             | iMessage and SMS) then there's a reasonable chance that the
             | message will go into a black hole, where it will be
             | delivered to iMessage and never appear on the other party's
             | new phone.
             | 
             | This is doubly true if they have ever used an Apple PC to
             | receive iMessages; in that case it will almost certainly
             | never reach the new phone via SMS.
             | 
             | I don't believe there is a fix to this; sometimes you can
             | repair it on the other party's phone by munging the
             | contact, but most messages will just be blackholed.
        
               | Jtsummers wrote:
               | https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203042
               | 
               | Two solutions. The first requires an iPhone (to disable
               | iMessages on your account with) and the other does not.
               | This has been around for years now.
        
             | ratww wrote:
             | iMessage is exclusive to iPhones and works in the same
             | application that does SMS, seamlessly.
             | 
             | The problem OP is alluding to is that some people avoid
             | talking with people who don't have iMessage, because SMS
             | costs money. So there is a bit of peer pressure to use it,
             | and a lot of people are stuck in iOS because of that.
             | 
             | It's not that different from Signal/Telegram/WhatsApp,
             | those apps are also closed and rely on network effects. But
             | they are free and work on other OSs, while iMessage
             | requires a relatively expensive phone.
        
               | SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
               | OP here. The problem I had was actually more referring to
               | the fact that Apple does not offer fine grained control
               | over how messages are delivered or sent on a per device
               | basis. I can't easily say, for instance, that I want
               | outgoing messages on all my non phone devices (Mac, iPad,
               | etc) to use iMessage but inbound messages sent from
               | phones should be received via SMS. I also can't say that
               | I want all messages from certain users to be received via
               | SMS (like my wife, who I should always want to receive on
               | my phone so I can respond quickly).
        
               | vdqtp3 wrote:
               | Text messages between iPhones are also invisibly shunted
               | to iMessage
        
               | prionassembly wrote:
               | Should SMS cost money? (Or at least, more than ~10X the
               | bandwidth bill so there's nice monopoly rent for the
               | operator... I can't imagine the actual cost being over ~1
               | USD/1000 messages.)
        
           | williamtwild wrote:
           | This is a comment that should be kept to the annals of
           | reddit. You can say this about any company who does thing out
           | of spec and to create and ecosystem to drive profits. Google,
           | twitter, Ford, IBM.
        
             | JadeNB wrote:
             | > You can say this about any company who does thing out of
             | spec and to create and ecosystem to drive profits. Google,
             | twitter, Ford, IBM.
             | 
             | The fact that abuse of standards and customer lock-in is
             | ubiquitous doesn't make it any less abusive.
        
           | kbenson wrote:
           | Apple's only slightly worse than all the others in that they
           | severely limit what you can use iMessage on, but I'll always
           | be a lot more pissed at them because they kicked off this
           | whole mess.
           | 
           | I really miss the days of when I could load all my accounts
           | into Pidgin (Gaim!) and have almost everything centralized.
           | Now I have a teams window (which doesn't bother me too much
           | since it's a work app), a tab for slack, a tab for the
           | umpteenth iteration of whatever Google has decided to call
           | their chat platform, a tab to get SMS messages through google
           | messenger (a welcome change), a window for signal on the
           | desktop, and tabs for Facebook and LinkedIn (both or which I
           | try to never visit, but would like to know if someone
           | contacts my on, and I refuse to load on my phone). I just
           | realized I've apparently abandoned my ICQ/AIM accounts to the
           | past.
           | 
           | That's the desktop. I have almost all those as separate apps
           | on my phone, with separate ways to use them, separate
           | notification preferences, etc.
           | 
           | The instant messaging ecosystem has gone to complete shit,
           | and I doubt anyone that used it seriously before this
           | happened will disagree. And what we got in exchange for every
           | company walling off their own IM system? Honestly, I'm not
           | sure anything that couldn't be recreated fairly easily in a
           | client with a couple months work if someone had extended
           | their protocol to do more.
        
             | mxuribe wrote:
             | > ...I really miss the days of when I could load all my
             | accounts into Pidgin (Gaim!) and have almost everything
             | centralized...
             | 
             | Me too! I'm very much hoping that matrix - the protocol -
             | continues its steady climb (both popularity and adoption),
             | because that is what i see as the future for that kind of
             | experience where if not everything at least lots/most of my
             | comms interactions will be managed on my side by a single
             | "interface". I'm an admitted fanboy of the matrix protocol
             | (as well as matrix apps like Element, FluffyChat,
             | Quaternion, etc.)...so maybe i'm biased, but have you tried
             | playing around with matrix, and its associated apps, to see
             | if it gets you closer to that older Pidgin/Gaim/Adium-like
             | experience?
             | 
             | (I'm not affiliated with the matrix org. nor any app/client
             | builder, as noted i'm just a fanboy.)
        
               | kbenson wrote:
               | I haven't, but I have seen discussions of it here. I'm
               | not sure how it could make the situation any better
               | really unless it can actually interoperate with closed
               | protocols (how?) or actually takes over a significant
               | enough portion of the market that people choose to use it
               | in lieu of hangouts or iMessage or facebook, etc, and
               | there are lots of incentives those use to make that
               | unlikely.
               | 
               | In any other case, it's just the XKCD standards meme[1]
               | all over again, in that it might be better in many ways,
               | but I doubt it will actually help market fragmentation.
               | 
               | 1: https://xkcd.com/927/ which actually specifically
               | mentions instant messaging.
        
       | jrootabega wrote:
       | They're also just bad at being phones! Recently Android has taken
       | to popping up the keypad when it thinks it hears the other end
       | ask for a PIN. And that is exactly before my finger hits the
       | button to open the keypad, resulting in pressing one of the
       | buttons, invalidating my PIN. (This is part of the broader
       | phenomenon of hyperactively rearranging interactive elements of
       | the UI, being unresponsive, but not protecting you from
       | accidentally tapping something you could not have reasonably
       | avoided. UIs should not be able to do unexpected things while
       | also being interactive.)
       | 
       | And I think many of us have probably hung up calls with our faces
       | at least once.
        
         | el-salvador wrote:
         | Didn't know about this. How does it work technically? Does it
         | convert the call from speech to text internally, and opens the
         | keyboard when it hears PIN?
        
           | jrootabega wrote:
           | I don't know about the implementation, but I would imagine
           | it's like the "Now Playing" feature, where the phone has
           | local hashes or ML models for current popular music, or
           | common phrases you might hear on the phone. It could also
           | just be that my phone knows when it's calling voicemail, and
           | maybe there is out of band info telling the phone app that it
           | wants a PIN.
        
         | fuzzylightbulb wrote:
         | I have been using Android for a very long time and have never
         | had this issue with the phone "popping up the keypad when it
         | thinks it hears the other end ask for a PIN". Occasionally a
         | webpage will be coded such that the cursor is in a text box and
         | so the keyboard will pop up, but this is not an Android problem
         | per se. Maybe my experience is unique but I can't tell you the
         | last time I've hung up a phone with my face or had issues like
         | you describe. I have been using Pixel phones of late and Nexus
         | phones before that. All in all they have been pretty solid for
         | me.
        
           | jrootabega wrote:
           | Interesting...I've also been using it a long time but only
           | noticed it in roughly the last year. Pixel user as well in
           | the US. If I hold 1 to dial voicemail (which calls carrier
           | voicemail via cellular service), when the lady says "Please
           | enter your password," my keypad pops up. If I call somewhere
           | else, it doesn't pop up. I'll have to call someone who can
           | play that clip back to me and see if it's responding to it.
        
       | shawnz wrote:
       | The author's arguments kind of remind me of those of the
       | interviewer in this 1979 clip with Ted Nelson:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVU62CQTXFI
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | Great interview, one of my faves.
         | 
         | It's also appropriate, though possibly not for the reasons
         | you'd chosen it.
         | 
         | Max Allen, Nelson's interviewer, struggled to be able to think
         | far enough forward to comprehend how a tool he thought of as a
         | glorified calculator might possibly be of use to the average
         | person. The problem of course was that he was mis-categorising
         | the tool, and greatly underestimating its capabilities and
         | applications.
         | 
         | The issue I'm seeing in this thread, and amongst communications
         | device and software designers, is a similar failure of
         | comprehension and imagination, of being unable to look _back_
         | in time and understand how a glorified bit of papyrus and leaky
         | grease tube (pen and paper) could possibly serve the functions
         | modern smartphones do. Again, it 's a misunderstanding of the
         | capabilities, workflow, possibilities, and affordances.
         | 
         | Thanks for illustrating the point so clearly!
        
       | juancn wrote:
       | Slightly off topic, but I barely use my phone as a phone. I think
       | it's dumb to call them phones, it an artifact of their origin.
       | 
       | I could just as well not have any phone functionality if it has
       | internet.
       | 
       | At this point I even don't pick up calls from numbers that I
       | don't recognize or weren't scheduled beforehand.
       | 
       | It's now rude to just call someone on the phone without asking
       | permission first.
       | 
       | It's the equivalent of dropping unannounced at their place.
        
         | bityard wrote:
         | > It's now rude to just call someone on the phone without
         | asking permission first.
         | 
         | I've literally never heard of this. So much of my day-to-day
         | work and personal communication would pretty much never happen
         | if I had to ask for permission every time before I called
         | someone. Is it a millennial thing?
         | 
         | Phones (telephones, that is) and phone numbers are exactly for
         | spontaneous voice communication. If someone doesn't want to be
         | called out of the blue, they can choose to not give their
         | number out to people. Or for texting say, hey, here's my number
         | but I'm so busy that texting is usually better for me. And with
         | today's smartphones that tell you who is calling (or at least,
         | whether or not it's someone you know), it's _way_ easier to
         | decide whether or not to answer a call than it was two or three
         | decades ago where the phone just rang and that was all you got.
        
           | mLuby wrote:
           | > they can choose to not give their number out to people
           | 
           | I assure you, I did _not_ give my number (or email) to the
           | spammers who contact me multiple times a day.
           | 
           | I'm sure they got it from some combination of public
           | databases and data breaches. Like a fingerprint, I can't
           | easily change my contact info, so here we are.
           | 
           | I want the smartphone without the phone. Signal audio is
           | often better quality anyway.
           | 
           | Aside: I want callers who aren't explicitly in my phone's
           | contacts to _solve an audio CAPTCHA_ before my phone accepts
           | their text /call/voicemail. This would not affect family or
           | friends, would provide a path for important calls like
           | medical, financial, or government calls, and would
           | significantly increase the cost of spam.
        
           | JohnJamesRambo wrote:
           | I hate to tell you, but you may be one of those people we
           | wish just texted every time we have to stop what we are doing
           | and pick up a call.
           | 
           | 99% of the time it could be handled better via a text or
           | email, which allows both parties to answer when they can.
           | 
           | It is infuriating when I have to spend 30 minutes of my day
           | trying to phone people back and getting voice mail so that
           | they can tell me something that was best put in a simple
           | text.
        
             | thesuperbigfrog wrote:
             | >> I hate to tell you, but you may be one of those people
             | we wish just texted every time we have to stop what we are
             | doing and pick up a call.
             | 
             | >> 99% of the time it could be handled better via a text or
             | email, which allows both parties to answer when they can.
             | 
             | I think it depends very much on your relationship with the
             | person with whom you are communicating and the conversation
             | itself.
             | 
             | The "bandwidth" of communication of a voice call is much
             | higher than a text or email because of voice inflection,
             | voice tone, and other audible factors.
             | 
             | For example, you might be able to immediately tell that the
             | person you called is sick and adjust your plans or request,
             | but a text or email would not tell you that.
             | 
             | A voice call also allows for quick clarifications that
             | could take several rounds of texts or emails. This means
             | that a 30 second phone call could be faster than several
             | rounds of texts or emails spaced over several hours.
             | 
             | A voice call is also better for more sensitive or urgent
             | communication. Urgent or sensitive news conveyed over text
             | or email can feel impersonal or even uncaring.
             | 
             | For asynchronous one-way messages, I agree that texts or
             | emails are better since they do not interfere and allow
             | each side to handle responses asynchronously.
             | 
             | >> It is infuriating when I have to spend 30 minutes of my
             | day trying to phone people back and getting voice mail so
             | that they can tell me something that was best put in a
             | simple text.
             | 
             | I completely agree. I HATE voice mail and have actually
             | turned it off. People who know me and need a voice call can
             | call back or try reaching me by text or email.
        
               | fuzzer37 wrote:
               | > I completely agree. I HATE voice mail and have actually
               | turned it off. People who know me and need a voice call
               | can call back or try reaching me by text or email.
               | 
               | Yeah... You're the kind of person people wish would just
               | text us.
        
             | mrweasel wrote:
             | Different solutions for different situations and people.
             | 
             | I don't see the 99%, more frequently it's meetings that can
             | be replaced by emails. Some of my customers are fine
             | sending an email or creating a ticket, and are able to tell
             | me in writing what they want. Others, I'd say around half,
             | can't clearly tell me what they want. Maybe they don't
             | know, or they don't fully understand the problem
             | 
             | Either you send a few emails back and forth for a few days,
             | trying to figure out what people want, wasting hours.
             | Instead you can call the same people, and in less than 30
             | minutes have the job clearly defined. Then you still need
             | to follow up via an email, so you have the clients OK in
             | writing.
             | 
             | It's not a generational thing, it's down to how different
             | people best communicate, and what situation you're
             | currently facing. The clean and clear dismissal of phone
             | call as a means of communication isn't productive. My
             | dismissal of texts in professional settings might also not
             | be super productive, but that's would mean that I have to
             | give out my cellphone number to clients, and that's not
             | really happening.
        
           | handrous wrote:
           | > Is it a millennial thing?
           | 
           | "Elder millennial" here. Didn't have a cell phone until
           | college, and then it was a dumb phone.
           | 
           | Phone calls are my least favorite form of communication.
           | Oddly enough, I'm fine with them in a business context, but
           | personal? Don't call me unless someone's dying or I'm
           | expecting a call from you. I _will_ be annoyed otherwise.
           | Either the person you 're calling is ignoring _all_ calls
           | (phone silent and out of sight), or you 're about to set off
           | a blaring DEAL WITH THIS RIGHT THIS SECOND, DROP WHAT YOU'RE
           | DOING alarm for them (even if it's on vibrate, still, that's
           | what it is). It's like _yelling_ "I need your attention this
           | second!". So it should be important enough to warrant
           | abruptly interrupting someone who may be in the middle of
           | who-knows-what.
           | 
           | I felt very differently about this before cell phones. Yay!
           | Someone called me! Now it's like, damnit, why are you being
           | such a jerk by calling me when there's not something super-
           | important and urgent going on? I think part of it's that home
           | phones couldn't interrupt you _everywhere_ at _all times_.
           | Mostly just indoors, in your house.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | mixmastamyk wrote:
           | It's a maker vs manager/sales thing.
        
           | tbihl wrote:
           | No, I don't think it's a millenial thing.
           | 
           | I agree with you completely.
        
           | version_five wrote:
           | There seems to be some odd resentment to your point- the
           | person implying that "makers" don't like taking calls,
           | really? FWIW, I like the phone, it often let's things get
           | resolved faster and avoid misunderstanding and promotes
           | diplomacy.
        
             | ddoolin wrote:
             | I get where they're coming from though. To me it's more of
             | a personality trait than generational, and our industries
             | do lend themselves to often extreme introversion. I agree
             | with you, it's way faster to get through conversations on
             | the phone. People forget that social norms also apply to
             | texting and that can make them drawn out, before even
             | thinking about how some people only respond in very wide
             | intervals.
        
               | shawnz wrote:
               | Of course it's more convenient for the caller. But what
               | about the receiver of the call? They might be in the
               | middle of other tasks, and perhaps they want to have some
               | time to plan their side of the conversation, as the
               | caller did.
               | 
               | I don't think the argument is that voice communication is
               | not useful. The only issue is _unsolicited_ calls.
        
           | joshstrange wrote:
           | > Is it a millennial thing?
           | 
           | It may be more of a millennial thing but I've heard this from
           | both younger (Gen Z) and older (Gen X) people as well. It
           | does depend on the type of call. If I run a business then I'm
           | not expecting my vendors/clients to pre-schedule a call but
           | if a friend calls I assume it's an emergency or extremely
           | time-sensitive. I regularly send and receive "Are you free to
           | talk?" SMS/iMessage/Discord/etc messages and only initiate
           | calls without first asking if it's something that just can't
           | wait (or in the case where we are about to meet up, like
           | calling to say I'm almost there or calling to find someone at
           | an event we are both attending). The only exception to this
           | "rule" is my parents who regularly call me out of the blue (I
           | get a text ~20% of the time max to ask if I'm free).
        
         | dasyatidprime wrote:
         | I tend to term such a device a 'handset' for that among other
         | reasons.
        
         | ekianjo wrote:
         | > I think it's dumb to call them phones
         | 
         | Circa early 2000s we used to call them PDAs. I remember with
         | fond memories my pocketPCs well before the iPhone was even a
         | thing.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | Apocryphon wrote:
           | It's a shame that the concept is gone. I liked PalmPilots.
           | The iPod Touch is the remaining relic of the non-phone
           | smartphone.
        
         | pomian wrote:
         | Except in the country. (Country side) Where cell phones hardly
         | ever work, and usually everyone is working outside, so they
         | don't answer a land line phone. In which case you stop by,
         | everyone takes a break over coffee, and a good visit is had by
         | all. Just not, every day.
        
         | ElijahLynn wrote:
         | I've been working towards calling mine a "Pewter" like
         | Com"puter" for Pocket Computer.
        
         | systemvoltage wrote:
         | > It's now rude to just call someone on the phone without
         | asking permission first.
         | 
         | I really wish we could rewind the time for this one. It was so
         | amazing to call people spontaneously.
        
           | version_five wrote:
           | Now spontaneous calls have been replaced with slack messages,
           | often with the expectation (and I'm guilty of this too) that
           | the recipient will drop everything and reply. At least with a
           | phone call, if they didn't answer you know they are bust.
           | 
           | Personally, I'd prefer a call to at least 50% of slack
           | messages - any time a back and forth is required that could
           | be addressed in a 30 second call but instead takes a slack
           | chat spanning 10 min where you can't really do anything else
           | because of the distraction.
           | 
           | I've tried to encourage people to phone me, including leaving
           | my phone number is my slack status and asking people to
           | consider phoning, but it wasnt really successful
        
           | xanaxagoras wrote:
           | Just start doing it, be the change and all that. I do it.
           | Sometimes they answer, sometimes they don't. Everyone here is
           | overthinking it.
        
             | bityard wrote:
             | I don't know if it's just an introvert tendency or what. I
             | mean I get it, being so deep whatever project your working
             | on that a phone call--even from someone you like--can seem
             | like a burdensome interruption.
             | 
             | But it does sometimes feel like something bigger has
             | changed.
             | 
             | When I was a kid, the house phone was almost _always_ in
             | use at night and on the weekends. Various family members
             | and friends called just to chat and catch up and BS about
             | whatever was on the news. Birthday calls were placed and
             | gratefully received. The teenagers in the house got in
             | trouble for tying up the line all evening to talk with
             | their friends even after having spent all day with them at
             | school. Today that's all been replaced with texts and
             | tweets and facebook likes and it makes me sad.
        
               | joshstrange wrote:
               | > The teenagers in the house got in trouble for tying up
               | the line all evening to talk with their friends even
               | after having spent all day with them at school.
               | 
               | They still do this, it's just over
               | FaceTime/Discord/Zoom/etc. Also I don't see the
               | voice->text move as something really that terrible. I
               | have a discord with my close friends and we've
               | essentially left FB groups for this instead. We can all
               | share stuff and consume it on our own timetables instead
               | of having to drop everything and engage at the exact
               | moment someone wants to share. We can always drop into
               | voice/video/screen-share if needed, it's really ideal for
               | me and my friends.
        
               | systemvoltage wrote:
               | Oh man, I am getting nostalgic about this. It was
               | _amazing_ to socialize without any formalities.
               | 
               | Analog life is quite the thing. The funny thing is my dad
               | used to complain how phones have ruined physical
               | interaction. He used to have friends just literally show
               | up at the house and see if he is available to hang. He
               | thought phones ended that lifestyle and now he is _glued_
               | to FB. God help us all...
        
           | chrisseaton wrote:
           | But not amazing to be called spontaneously.
        
           | Causality1 wrote:
           | What was amazing about it? In my experience phone calls are
           | composed of ten percent the reason you made the call, ninety
           | percent time-wasting greetings, farewells, and pointless
           | smalltalk.
        
             | tarr11 wrote:
             | I think OP was referring to calling someone for the sole
             | purpose of socializing, which is often a lot of "pointless
             | smalltalk"
        
               | systemvoltage wrote:
               | I still call my buddies and they call me - spontaneously
               | - I pick up if I am available. No formality. No
               | scheduling. Just pick up the damn phone and chat!
               | 
               | Slack added huddles recently to cut the friction to call
               | someone. Phone lines before cell phones used to be like
               | that - just call! Instant voice communication. So much
               | better than text.
               | 
               | I feel like I am showing my age now :-)
        
         | Brajeshwar wrote:
         | I love this and I have been practicing the art of no-phone
         | calls for quite a while. My phone don't even 'ring' except for
         | the selected group that I had specifically set to bypass my
         | 24/7 DND.
         | 
         | I created a tiny website to give out to people asking why -
         | https://no.phone.wtf
        
         | bitwize wrote:
         | To us nerds/lizard people, a computer is a programmable
         | information processing device, generally with one or more CPUs,
         | memory, etc. It can be put to a multitude of purposes. A
         | smartphone certainly qualifies (as does a dumbphone, actually).
         | 
         | But normies don't work like that. To normies, a device is
         | defined by the role it fills in your life. In this view, a
         | computer is a device used for work: preparing documents,
         | emails, spreadsheets, and presentations. Maybe programming or
         | data analysis for scientific, engineering, or BI purposes. A
         | _phone_ is a social link: it connects you to the people you
         | care about most. This has been true since before smartphones or
         | even cellphones became commonplace: teenagers in the 80s craved
         | their own landlines and their own phones, and even ordered
         | custom phones like the ones with transparent cases, etc.
         | 
         | So inasmuch as smartphones serve the primary social function
         | they continue to serve, which is to connect you with your
         | social circles and facilitate communication with them, they
         | will continue to be marketed as phones, not computers and not
         | anything else -- even if they completely lose PSTN
         | connectivity.
        
         | ddoolin wrote:
         | People, for a while: I need to remember to reach out to all my
         | friends and family during this terrible period!
         | 
         | A few months later: Stop calling me! And make sure to slip a
         | note in my mailbox before you even think about texting me!
         | 
         | I REALLY do not like this isolationist culture we're slowly
         | building up to, at least in the U.S. Calling someone is the
         | equivalent of showing up unannounced? I find that notion absurd
         | on its face. Maybe there are some parallels but it stops pretty
         | short.
        
           | timw4mail wrote:
           | I think the biggest backlash is against the spam calls. IF I
           | know the number, I'll be a lot less irritated by a phone call
           | than if I don't.
        
         | hn8788 wrote:
         | > It's the equivalent of dropping unannounced at their place.
         | 
         | I started to feel the same way once texting and messaging
         | became common. Having someone call you unexpectedly feels like
         | the equivalent of someone saying "I don't care what it is that
         | you're doing, talk to me right now." I know that's not actually
         | what's going through people's minds, but it feels that way.
         | It's like when someone asks you something over IM instead of
         | over email, even though it isn't time sensitive.
        
           | Kevin_S wrote:
           | Outside of a few select people (mostly my parents and
           | grandparents), if someone calls me I assume it is an
           | emergency or something very important.
           | 
           | I actually get a surge of anxiety because of this lol.
        
             | joshstrange wrote:
             | In the rare case I make a call without first asking/warning
             | someone I always follow up with a text (even if I leave a
             | VM) saying "Everything is ok, just let me know when you are
             | free to talk" or something similar.
             | 
             | I absolutely love the transcription service for voicemails
             | on iPhone because it means I can easily scan the contents
             | of the messages of people who don't just text after a
             | failed call.
        
           | randallsquared wrote:
           | Messaging is to email as texting is to physical mail: you
           | send physical mail or email when what you want to send isn't
           | quickly dashed off or replied to, but you also take a large
           | risk that the recipient will never see it (spam filtered), or
           | never bother to read it (left in the inbox with tens of
           | thousands of other emails, hundreds of which are from that
           | very morning), or never reply. Also, you never know if
           | someone turned off read receipts, so you can't even assume
           | they didn't see it and start the escalation message with
           | "Hey, I know you haven't gotten to this yet, but..."
           | 
           | So, for a number of years now texting, Slack, or Messenger
           | was the way to be clearer about the intention of only taking
           | a moment of someone's time, which makes it more likely that
           | they'll pay attention. I've been dismayed, as recently as
           | this week, to see on shared screens a red Slack badge that
           | has numbers in the hundreds.
           | 
           | What we really need is much, much better prioritization
           | systems.
        
           | pkolaczk wrote:
           | If a friend calls me unexpectedly, most of the time I do care
           | more about them than whatever I was doing, because I can just
           | resume what I was doing a few minutes later. Most stuff can
           | be interrupted and resumed without a problem. If this was
           | really important and more important than the thing my friend
           | calls to me with I politely refuse to talk and offer a
           | callback later. Maybe we have a different culture, but
           | calling people on a phone is normal here (Poland).
        
           | dec0dedab0de wrote:
           | _It 's like when someone asks you something over IM instead
           | of over email, even though it isn't time sensitive._
           | 
           | That's an interesting perspective. I think that explains some
           | people's behavior. I tend to think of IM as in please reply
           | in the next day or so, and email as in please reply in the
           | next week or two.
           | 
           | I'm always telling people to not say hi in an IM and then
           | wait for me to reply, because if I'm busy I'm not going to
           | reply until later, but then you might not be there, and if
           | you had asked whatever you needed in the first message I
           | could be answering it now
        
             | chefandy wrote:
             | The expectations I've most commonly encountered are less
             | than two hours for a business IM, or less than 36 hours for
             | an individual-to-individual business email.
        
         | aethertron wrote:
         | > It's now rude to just call someone on the phone without
         | asking permission first.
         | 
         | Is it? I think that norm varies a lot with different sections
         | of culture. If it was universally rude, then it'd be damn silly
         | that phones are all set up to be able to receive calls
         | unsolicited, by default.
         | 
         | "Do not disturb" could be the default.
        
         | germinalphrase wrote:
         | "It's the equivalent of dropping unannounced at their place"
         | 
         | Which used to be a normal thing - at least where I live and
         | especially if you were young. At the same time, politely
         | telling someone you're busy, it's not a good time, etc was also
         | acceptable and normal.
        
           | andrewzah wrote:
           | Key statement there is 'used to be'. Now that phones are
           | ubiquitous, it makes no sense to just go over someone's place
           | or even call them, when you can just send a text that lets
           | someone respond asynchronously. I also just have a policy of
           | not picking up calls from unknown numbers except if they
           | leave a voicemail or call several times.
           | 
           | Most people that I know only use calls for time
           | sensitive/urgent needs. Most other things, aside from
           | chatting with family etc, are really best handled with a
           | text. For whatever reason the culture around phones has
           | shifted to "don't force people to drop whatever they're doing
           | and respond to a call unless it is actually necessary".
        
             | city41 wrote:
             | And even then I'd argue kick off the urgent communication
             | need with a text. They can call back if they realize
             | synchronous communication is needed for the circumstance.
             | They are more likely to receive the text than a phone call.
             | If they are in a meeting or whatever, they would likely let
             | the call go to voicemail, but a text they can discretely
             | read.
        
               | milkytron wrote:
               | What I do is call if it's urgent and time sensitive (SO
               | is out shopping and I need to add something to the list).
               | If no response and more urgent (actual emergency or needs
               | immediate attention and is high priority), I call again.
               | If not an emergency, I send a text with the necessary
               | information and they can call back or respond via text.
               | 
               | Seems to work out well and fairly straightforward, I'd
               | imagine I'm not the only one that follows this flow.
        
               | jfk13 wrote:
               | It depends on the other party's phone habits. We don't
               | all carry them everywhere or check them constantly.
               | 
               | If you call me, I'll probably hear the phone ring, and
               | can either answer it or check for a message, whereas if
               | you send me a text, there's a decent chance I won't even
               | notice its existence for some hours. Better hope that
               | "urgent communication need" isn't _too_ urgent...
        
             | mrfusion wrote:
             | > Most people that I know only use calls for time
             | sensitive/urgent needs. Most other things, aside from
             | chatting with family etc, are really best handled with a
             | text. For whatever reason the culture around phones has
             | shifted to "don't force people to drop whatever they're
             | doing and respond to a call unless it is actually
             | necessary".
             | 
             | Anyone feel like businesses small and large aren't getting
             | this? If I need a plumber or want to apply for a mortgage
             | the first step is always a phone call. I don't get it.
             | 
             | I've tried texting local businesses but it only
             | occasionally works.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | el-salvador wrote:
               | In Central America most businesses have switched to
               | WhatsApp or Facebook messenger. They still keep the
               | normal phones though. Texting wouldn't work here though.
               | 
               | At first it was only small businesses like the nearby
               | cafeteria sending the lunch menu, then it was fast food
               | deliveries, some banks. Last year some state institutions
               | made the switch.
               | 
               | I'm not sure about a mortgage, since that requires more
               | paperwork. But most of a car insurance, car loan,
               | personal loan, new internet phone line, can be done via
               | WhatsApp.
               | 
               | The local digital signature law still doesn't work
               | though, so at certain point of the process, the company
               | sends an official or someone from a private post company
               | to get the real signatures on paper and confirm that the
               | ID card matches the application.
        
           | juancn wrote:
           | Yeah, but for close friends and family only. If I'm being
           | honest, it was mostly tolerated rather than encouraged. Once
           | everyone had phones, you called before dropping. Now everyone
           | has some form of async communication, so you use that
           | instead, before calling.
           | 
           | The issue is imposing yourself on somebody else's attention.
        
       | BuckRogers wrote:
       | For a technologist, I'm definitely fairly anti-technology. The
       | height of human invention was the written word. And pencil and
       | paper is still impossible to beat. Unless you're decked out with
       | a keyboard, no smart device is going to beat it. Even then,
       | markup is really hard. You'll then need a stylus, and some great
       | software to match what you had at the start with pencil and
       | paper. And with the paper I can rip the page out and hand it to
       | someone. Or I could scan it. Whatever, pretty flexible. That
       | pretty much amounts to a joke that a comedian will be telling for
       | at least another century.
       | 
       | I use an iPhone 12 mini, but I'm not a heavy user of a phone. As
       | a Xennial, I lived through and was cognizant the last 20 years of
       | the analog age, roughly capping off with the Blackberry at the
       | end of the millennium (and took a few years to take off).
       | 
       | The smart devices haven't really helped anything. Laptops and
       | desktops have. Smart devices really were just tethers for you to
       | your work/life/consumer distractions. It has its uses, and that's
       | why I carry mine, but primarily just basic communication is why I
       | keep it. I can live without the secure Wake On Lan to my desktop,
       | internet banking and whatever relatively useless features it has.
       | 
       | Pencil, paper, laptop. Still can't beat it, smart devices are
       | largely just pieces of trash or new ball and chain at worst.
        
         | zikduruqe wrote:
         | > For a technologist, I'm definitely fairly anti-technology.
         | 
         | Same here. I have built many cellular networks from the ground
         | up in the early 90's, then I worked in R&D for cellular devices
         | and today I do various cloud things. When I am not at work, I
         | seldom carry a phone, nor even mess around with technology.
         | (Other than the random hobbyist project I'll mess around with
         | on the weekends every now and then).
         | 
         | I find it fascinating when I am out and about, only to watch
         | people living 18 inches in front of their nose, while there is
         | a great big world of activity all around them, and they are not
         | even aware.
        
       | swiley wrote:
       | I wonder when Apple will "invent" having an overlapping window
       | manager on a smartphone like what many people are doing on the
       | Pinephone.
        
         | cody8295 wrote:
         | You mean Picture in Picture or split app screen?
        
           | JadeNB wrote:
           | > You mean Picture in Picture or split app screen?
           | 
           | Please not their implementation of split screen brought to
           | the iPhone. Years of working on an iPad Pro, and I still
           | trigger it accidentally when I don't want it, can never
           | trigger it when I do want it or get rid of it, and always
           | wind up having to Google it again.
        
           | 29083011397778 wrote:
           | I can't say which distro grandparent is using on their
           | Pinephone, but when they say split-screen they could very
           | well mean, literally, what one would find on a desktop.
           | 
           | While personally, this sounds cumbersome to me, some people
           | have very unusual ways of using their Pinephones. To me,
           | that's awesome - we've settled on "how one uses a mobile
           | phone" based on what Google and Apple have designed. Having
           | new, off-the-wall ideas will lead to some people doing
           | slightly insane things, and I say that in the most positive
           | way possible.
           | 
           | Finally, as long as we're straying firmly off-topic: What
           | some people are doing with their mobile Linux devices always
           | reminds me of an Apple ad [0], from when "Think Different"
           | was still the motto of an underdog.
           | 
           | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjgtLSHhTPg
        
       | powersnail wrote:
       | > A modern business, software, or smartphone system may offer
       | some, or even all, of these functions, but frequently:
       | 
       | > They aren't available whilst a call is in process
       | 
       | > They have vastly less capability or flexibility than the
       | systems they replaced
       | 
       | What function isn't available during a call on a smartphone?
       | Playing music?
       | 
       | And when the author says "capability or flexibility", this is
       | what the author is comparing a smart phone with:
       | 
       | > The user
       | 
       | > The phone itself
       | 
       | > A Rolodex or addressbook / contacts list
       | 
       | > The local PBX - the business's dedicated internal phone switch.
       | 
       | > A secretary or switchboard operator, serving also as a message-
       | taking (voice-to-text), screening, redirect, directory,
       | interactive voice response, and/or calendaring service
       | 
       | > A desk calendar
       | 
       | > A phone book
       | 
       | > A diary or organiser
       | 
       | > Scratch paper
       | 
       | Yes, having a dedicated secretary is more flexible and capable
       | than a smartphone. But modern businesses still have secretaries
       | don't they? I don't understand how this is a viable comparison.
       | 
       | ---
       | 
       | In 2021, a functional phone is no longer functional for my use.
       | It hasn't been so for years. My university account required a Duo
       | app (2 factor) to login. My family relies on chat programs to
       | talk, because we live in different countries and SMS is
       | expensive. And so many other things......
       | 
       | I know that some people find themselves wasting time on smart
       | phones. But others have been several times more productive on
       | smart phones. It all comes down to choosing what works best for
       | you, and how you use the device.
       | 
       | (Edit: format)
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | From a follow-up comment to the original essay:
         | 
         |  _I strongly suspect that much of the reason for the lack of
         | awareness and consideration of these methods, tools, and
         | concepts is that this was "secretarial work", that is, women's
         | work. It was conceived of specifically to free the minds of
         | executives and administrators from having to deal with these
         | problems. Further, as secretarial and administrative positions
         | were eliminated from organisation, the knowledge, context, and
         | even the culture in which they were embodied, was lost._
        
         | troyvit wrote:
         | To me it's a pain while I'm on a call to pull the phone from my
         | face, switch apps to contacts, read or otherwise ingest the
         | data, then put my face back to the phone to relay what I
         | learned.
         | 
         | Compared holding the phone with one hand and flipping through
         | an address book with the other it's much less flexible to me.
        
           | silisili wrote:
           | Am I the only one who typically just uses speakerphone at a
           | low volume? Most calls I receive are at home, and I hate
           | holding my phone to my head anyways. That or a headset solves
           | the issue...
        
           | powersnail wrote:
           | > Compared holding the phone with one hand and flipping
           | through an address book with the other it's much less
           | flexible to me
           | 
           | My point was that we didn't replace address books with just
           | smartphones. As address books disappeared from our desks,
           | computers showed up. Emails showed up. It was a strange
           | comparison between a single phone and a whole ecosystem of
           | doing business.
           | 
           | "I'll send/email/fax all the information to you in a second."
           | largely replaced "I'm going to read this to you from this
           | piece of paper." especially in a business setting. More
           | efficient, formal, traceable methods have been invented and
           | adopted.
        
           | salamandersauce wrote:
           | Headphones. Often there is a pair in the box with a mic, if
           | not even if there is no headphone jack a pair of okay
           | Bluetooth buds are $30. Except for the shortest of calls it's
           | easier than holding the phone to your face. Then you can
           | easily do whatever on the phone.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | >But modern businesses still have secretaries don't they
         | 
         | Well, they have admins/assistants for seniorish execs but, no,
         | they mostly don't even have a shared admin for anyone below
         | that level
        
       | lorey wrote:
       | I thought I had heard that term before. Found the following
       | article in my bookmarks describing how to make your phone more
       | boring and less usable on purpose. Not the same topic, still
       | highly recommended. https://nomasters.io/posts/dumber-phone/
       | 
       | Also, I really like to use this minimalist launcher from time to
       | time: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.jkuester.unlauncher/
        
         | _def wrote:
         | Thanks for suggesting Unlauncher! I'm giving it a try now.
        
           | xanaxagoras wrote:
           | Seconded!
        
         | oftenwrong wrote:
         | I use a similar launcher:
         | https://f-droid.org/en/packages/fr.neamar.kiss/
         | 
         | I have a lot of the features tweaked or disabled. The way it is
         | configured, it basically acts as a static list of a few apps I
         | use most, with a search bar to access anything else.
         | 
         | I find this setup to be more straightforward than the normal
         | icons+folders type of launcher. I have handed my phone to other
         | people who have never used it, and they have no problem finding
         | things because you can just search.
        
       | nikodunk wrote:
       | Haha wow this is an excellent point. I'd never thought about it
       | this way before.
        
       | ChuckMcM wrote:
       | It is a fair point that if you aren't using a hands-free headset
       | or the speaker then accessing other features on your phone while
       | in a call is problematic. However, if you are on a hands free
       | headset then the author's point kind of falls apart. That said, I
       | wish I could buy a palm phone (small mostly just a phone) because
       | I do all the other stuff (calendaring, looking up dates, Etc.) on
       | my iPad that I use with my phone.
        
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       (page generated 2021-08-20 23:01 UTC)