[HN Gopher] 1800s Astronomical Drawings vs. NASA Images (2016)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       1800s Astronomical Drawings vs. NASA Images (2016)
        
       Author : dredmorbius
       Score  : 231 points
       Date   : 2021-08-18 07:12 UTC (15 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nypl.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nypl.org)
        
       | mrtnmcc wrote:
       | > Total Eclipse of the Sun. I personally enjoy Trouvelot's added
       | artistic flair (or flare, if you want to be punny) on this one.
       | 
       | The sketch there is actually more accurate than the photo! The
       | flare (corona) is real. Cameras have a hard time picking up the
       | corona (UV filters?). Here is an example of what it looks like to
       | the eye:
       | 
       | https://visitidaho.org/content/uploads/2016/12/Eclipse.png
        
         | mrtnmcc wrote:
         | Until seeing that, I never understood why people go through
         | such effort to see it from the path of totality strip. It's a
         | religious experience.
        
       | xbmcuser wrote:
       | Most people do not realise how much light and haze pollution we
       | have today compared to 200 years ago. And how visible the stars
       | were. Even remote places today are not the same as the atmosphere
       | still has more particles compared to 1800s
        
         | sumtechguy wrote:
         | I have only had the pleasure to see the milky way once. It was
         | in the middle of a loan stretch of road in arkansas. I have not
         | seen it since then, 25 years ago. I am the only person in my
         | neighborhood who turns off the porch light at night. I want to
         | see that again and to share it with others. But alas I do not
         | think it will happen :(
        
           | N1H1L wrote:
           | When I was a grad student at Penn State, we camped out at
           | Cherry Springs and saw the milky way. It was humbling, and I
           | recommend it to every person at least once in their life
        
           | pkaye wrote:
           | I've seen it at a couple places. One is Lowell observatory in
           | Flagstaff AZ. They have pretty good light conditions despite
           | being in a city. Second is in certain national parks which
           | tend to be away from any big city. Third was on a plane
           | flight over the pacific ocean.
        
           | prawn wrote:
           | Have you not had the chance in 25 years to go somewhere that
           | gave you a decent view of it? Camping or a farmstay?
        
             | sumtechguy wrote:
             | overcast and raining...
        
               | prawn wrote:
               | For 25 years?
        
               | sumtechguy wrote:
               | well yeah... most of the things I like to do are in the
               | city. So it just does not come up very often. When it
               | did...
        
         | sillyquiet wrote:
         | I lived and worked in a small town in the Mojave for close to a
         | decade. One of the few perks of living there was the dark sky -
         | the milky way for example was eminently visible on most nights
         | in a way I think most people never see.
         | 
         | https://www.darksky.org btw
        
         | lanna wrote:
         | This picture shows the difference after the city of Dunedin,
         | New Zealand, changed all its sodium lights to shielded LEDs:
         | https://i.redd.it/hxxp2c3ksdh71.jpg
        
           | zaroth wrote:
           | The color temperature of sodium lights is so much better at
           | night.
        
             | ericbarrett wrote:
             | San Jose used sodium lamps for years in deference to Lick
             | Observatory, which is on Mt. Hamilton about 15 miles east
             | of the city. The biggest advantage of sodium lights over
             | incandescent for astronomy is that the spectral lines are
             | very distinct and easy enough to filter out when doing
             | scientific studies; incandescent, on the other hand, floods
             | the spectrum broadly up to visible light.
             | 
             | I believe LED lamps have similar properties to sodium,
             | although I'm not sure how exact they are compared to sodium
             | lamps--there might be greater variance in the spectra
             | emitted due to material differences; whereas all sodium
             | lamps are arcing through a common atomic element and have
             | very predictable wavelengths.
        
             | TeMPOraL wrote:
             | Also sodium lights don't create so many headache-inducing
             | shadow patterns.
             | 
             | For example, a street I walked by regularly for almost
             | whole my life recently (in the last few years) got its
             | lighting replaced - each sodium lamp is now replaced with a
             | LED array with no (or ineffective) diffusor. In other
             | words: each spherical source of light got replaced by a
             | bunch of point sources.
             | 
             | Last time I walked down that street during night hours, I
             | got a vague feeling as if I was playing an old videogame,
             | because both the road and the sidewalk looked like a low-
             | resolution texture viewed up close: full of smudgy blocks
             | that result from texture upscaling. Except those blocks
             | moved in a weird dance, making my head spin when I focused
             | too much on it, kind of like looking at moving Moire
             | patterns.
             | 
             | Turns out, this was the pattern of shadows thrown by leaves
             | of a tree, when illuminated by half a dozen point light
             | sources.
             | 
             | That's my only complaint, though. LED lights are a win
             | overall.
        
       | solarized wrote:
       | When the sky still crystal clear to see. The reason why almost
       | polymath at that era also mastering astronomy.
        
       | spitfire wrote:
       | These remind me of the group of seven artist Lawren Harris. He
       | painted Glaciers and nature landscapes in a sort of art-deco
       | style. The colour absolutely glows from his paintings.
       | 
       | I get that same feeling here, and I love it.
        
       | blodkorv wrote:
       | I wonder what our pictures of space will be seen as in the
       | future.
        
         | holoduke wrote:
         | Empty. Space is expanding. All matter around us will vanish
         | beyond the event horizon. Will take some trillion years through
        
           | perl4ever wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip
           | 
           | "If the dark energy in the universe increases without limit,
           | it could overcome all forces that hold the universe together.
           | The key value is the equation of state parameter w, the ratio
           | between the dark energy pressure and its energy density. If
           | -1 < w < 0, the expansion of the universe tends to
           | accelerate, but the dark energy tends to dissipate over time,
           | and the Big Rip does not happen."
           | 
           | "According to the latest cosmological data available, the
           | uncertainties are still too large to discriminate among the
           | three cases w < -1, w = -1, and w > -1."
           | 
           | "In their paper, the authors consider a hypothetical example
           | with w = -1.5, H0 = 70 km/s/Mpc, and Om = 0.3, in which case
           | the Big Rip would happen approximately 22 billion years from
           | the present. In this scenario, galaxies would first be
           | separated from each other about 200 million years before the
           | Big Rip. About 60 million years before the Big Rip, galaxies
           | would begin to disintegrate as gravity becomes too weak to
           | hold them together. Planetary systems like the Solar System
           | would become gravitationally unbound about three months
           | before the Big Rip, and planets would fly off into the
           | rapidly expanding universe. In the last minutes, stars and
           | planets would be torn apart, and the now-dispersed atoms
           | would be destroyed about 10-19 seconds before the end. At the
           | time the Big Rip occurs, even spacetime itself would be
           | ripped apart and the scale factor would be infinity"
        
           | goohle wrote:
           | We have less than 14 billion years before we will fall into
           | Great Attractor or Shapley Attractor, or will be erased in
           | the process of falling.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shapley_Attractor
        
             | dcuthbertson wrote:
             | Well, I, for one, don't plan on being there when it
             | happens!
        
             | dylan604 wrote:
             | Only if we figure out how to get off this one solitary rock
             | and expand beyond the solar system. The sun (Sol) will
             | continue to go through its natural processes which will see
             | it expand larger than the Earth's orbit. That will be the
             | end of physical Earth, but life as we know it will have
             | ended before then.
             | 
             | So, I'm not sure who the "we" will be that will have less
             | than 14 billion years.
        
       | was_a_dev wrote:
       | I can't comprehend how some artist manages to draw something like
       | a gas cloud so accurately.
       | 
       | In fact it is all impressive, maybe with the exception of Mars.
        
         | _Microft wrote:
         | The Orion Nebula [0] is appearing relatively large on the sky,
         | about 1deg (= 60 arc minutes) wide. This is approximately twice
         | as wide as a full moon appears on the sky. With a telescope,
         | you should easily be able to make out details. It's the white-
         | ish blob in the "vertical" chain of stars in the lower center
         | of this image [1]. The yellow-orange star in the top left is
         | Betelgeuse by the way. It was in the news a while ago because
         | it had dimmed a lot and some people (not astronomers though)
         | were hoping for a supernova. That's a different one from
         | "Tabby's Star" which was also in the news because of unexpected
         | dimming.
         | 
         | Drawing comes with practice by the way.
         | 
         | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Nebula
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Orion_co...
        
         | derbOac wrote:
         | Certain elements of the Mars drawing having me looking for an
         | explanation. Maybe it's just artistic license, but other
         | features are so similar to contemporary photos that it makes me
         | think there's a more practical explanation.
        
         | sedan_baklazhan wrote:
         | Check out Mars from a decent telescope. It's a blurry tiny
         | yellow circle with very unclear "shadows" on it. They drew it
         | really well. Much more impressive than Orion in fact.
        
           | darkerside wrote:
           | Why is Orion unimpressive? Because the author didn't include
           | visible representations of wavelengths that are outside of
           | the range of human detectability?
        
             | transportguy wrote:
             | the drawing of orion is unimpressive, as it is easily
             | visible and drawable to a similar quality with any
             | telescope or even binoculars if you have clear skies.
             | Spotting any sort of features on mars requires huge
             | magnification incredible steadiness and an ability to track
             | the object. Drawing the details for Mars required
             | magnitudes more ability and far better technology.
        
               | perl4ever wrote:
               | For reference, Orion is about 3,600 arcseconds wide
               | [http://spider.seds.org/ngc/revngcic.cgi?NGC1976],
               | whereas Mars is from 4 to 25 [https://web.archive.org/web
               | /20100612092806/http://nssdc.gsfc...] depending on its
               | distance.
        
       | rikkipitt wrote:
       | Some of the chalk drawings by Lord Rosse et al at Birr Castle in
       | the Republic of Ireland are amazing considering they were made in
       | the 1840's.
       | 
       | https://birrcastle.com/astronomy/
       | 
       | https://birrcastle.com/telescope-astronomy/
        
       | sedan_baklazhan wrote:
       | It is surprising (at least) to see "Book of killed poets" in
       | Russian (which is in fact some Soviet era photo paper) as NASA's
       | Saturn image.
        
         | malkia wrote:
         | Came here to note that, and show off my poor russian language
         | skills (bulgarian here) :)
        
       | queuebert wrote:
       | Was rotating the NASA images to match the drawings too much to
       | ask?
        
       | bjarneh wrote:
       | The NASA images of space are colored black and white images, if
       | I'm not mistaken. So artists are involved in NASA's images as
       | well it seems.
        
         | qayxc wrote:
         | You are correct. NASA employs artists to generate published
         | press images.
         | 
         | The individual pictures sent by the spacecraft are indeed
         | monochrome images taken with different filters. These filters
         | don't usually correspond with RGB and calibration is required
         | to approximate human perception.
         | 
         | Most of the time there's no equivalent at all (this applies to
         | pretty much all deep space imagery) and the colours are
         | basically made up (the intensities aren't - they correspond to
         | frequency responses, just not necessarily within the human
         | vision spectrum).
         | 
         | Here's a discussion on the topic:
         | http://ivc.lib.rochester.edu/pretty-pictures-the-use-of-fals...
        
           | TeMPOraL wrote:
           | I'm still conflicted. The article you linked goes deep into
           | philosophy of knowledge, but still arguably misses the most
           | important point - false color can be a tool for analysis,
           | pretty pictures are entertaining (and/or good marketing), but
           | neither of them let us - individuals - get closer to the
           | phenomena.
           | 
           | When I look at photos of distant places on Earth, I do so
           | because I'm trying to imagine how would they look like _if I
           | was actually there_. This is the main reason people care
           | about photos in general[0] - they 're means to capture and
           | share an experience. As a non-astronomer, when I'm looking
           | for photos of things in space, I also want to know - first
           | and foremost - _how would these things look to my own eyes_
           | if I was close enough to see them.
           | 
           | The article mentions NASA defending their image manipulation
           | as popular astronomy's equivalent of red-eye removal. But
           | it's not that. Red-eye removal exists to correct for the
           | difference between a flash-equipped camera system and human
           | eyes. It's meant to manipulate the image strictly to make it
           | closer to what a real human would've seen on the scene. Where
           | is astronomy's _actual_ equivalent of that? Pictures
           | manipulated in such a way to make them maximally close to
           | what an astronaut in a spacesuit would see, if they were
           | hanging around the astronomical object in question? That 's
           | what I'd like to see.
           | 
           | Such pictures will not be as exciting as the propped up
           | marketing shoots, but they'll at least allow the viewers to
           | calibrate their understanding of space with reality. I would
           | think this would be seen as more important in the truth-
           | seeking endeavor of science.
           | 
           | --
           | 
           | [0] - Marketing notwithstanding - the reason imagery is so
           | useful in advertising is _because_ of this desire; carefully
           | retouched and recomposed pictures are superstimuli, the way
           | sugar is for our sense of taste.
        
             | qayxc wrote:
             | > [...] what an astronaut in a spacesuit would see, if they
             | were hanging around the astronomical object in question?
             | That's what I'd like to see.
             | 
             | Well, sorry to disappoint you there but that's technically
             | impossible. For most deep space images human eyes would
             | likely see nothing at all (because we cannot perceive the
             | frequency bands depicted). In other cases it's hard to tell
             | because light conditions are vastly different from our
             | daily perception (lack of atmosphere, harsh contrasts, very
             | little sunlight) and the sensors collected photons for
             | hours - something that human eyes just can't do.
             | 
             | One problem is that the equipment used is simply incapable
             | of recording images as human eyes would see them - try to
             | snap a picture of the evening sky with a smartphone camera
             | to see this first hand (unless your newfangled device
             | sports AI image enhancement, in which case it's just as
             | fake [0]).
             | 
             | > I would think this would be seen as more important in the
             | truth-seeking endeavor of science.
             | 
             | Most scientists see this "truth" as something objective
             | though, and that's strictly not what human perception is in
             | the first place. [0] has a RAW image of a smartphone next
             | to an AI's interpretation and that's a good analogy to what
             | happens with scientific data as well. Neither of the two
             | versions matches what a person would see, yet we accept the
             | AI version as being "good", even though it neither is
             | depicting what the camera sensor picked up nor showing what
             | a person would have seen.
             | 
             | So what is "the truth" in this case? Is it the grainy,
             | desaturated and dark raw data from the CCD sensors or the
             | artificial construct that tries to mimic what a human
             | observer might have perceived?
             | 
             | [0]
             | https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/11/14/your-
             | sm...
        
               | perl4ever wrote:
               | >For most deep space images human eyes would likely see
               | nothing at all
               | 
               | Depending on the definition of "deep".
               | 
               | Presumably in close orbit around a planet, a person would
               | see something. In fact, I've read that even on Pluto,
               | sunlight at noon is still much brighter than moonlight on
               | Earth.
               | 
               | And considering how far away Orion is, what if someone
               | was ten times closer? Is it unthinkable that it might be
               | comparable to the Milky Way?
        
             | freemint wrote:
             | > Where is astronomy's actual equivalent of that?
             | 
             | Removing StarLink satellites? _ducks_
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | Most scientific astronomical images are based on capture of
         | specific bandwidths and frequencies, which are then assigned
         | colours for visual interpretation.
         | 
         | Given that many of the frequencies are beyond the limits of
         | human vision (ifra-red, microwave, and radio, at the low end,
         | ultraviolet, x-ray, and gamma-ray at the high), this is
         | somewhat out of necessity.
         | 
         | The individual channels largely record intensity, so in that
         | regard they're similar to B&W photographs, but the intensities
         | are of specific bands, rather than a wide range of bands as in
         | silver-halide based photographs. There may be some frequency
         | variation recorded and interpreted as well, I'm not certain of
         | this.
         | 
         | That said, I'm pretty sure that there's also an eye to
         | aesthetic and public appeal of landmark released images.
         | 
         | This link shows and discusses multi-spectral images, showing
         | the channels individually for several objects:
         | 
         | https://ecuip.lib.uchicago.edu/multiwavelength-astronomy/ast...
         | 
         | The Crab Nebula at frequncies from radio to gamma:
         | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Cr...
         | 
         | Galaxy Centaurus-A image which includes infrared and x-ray
         | channels: https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210117.html
         | 
         | Today's APOD shows the Ring Nebula in infrared, red, and
         | visible light: https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210818.html
         | 
         | You can find such examples by searching for different EMR
         | aspects, e.g., "radio, ultraviolet, x-ray". These are typically
         | noted in APOD's image descriptions.
        
         | aero-glide2 wrote:
         | Nah, many space probes have colour camera too. Here are some
         | images from ISRO's Mars Orbiter :
         | https://www.isro.gov.in/pslv-c25-mars-orbiter-mission/pictur...
        
           | qayxc wrote:
           | These aren't colour images - they're all coloured after the
           | fact.
           | 
           | What the sensors do is to take images in multiple
           | wavelengths. Each individual channel is still monochrome and
           | "real colour"-images are produced by interpreting them as
           | red, green and blue with various weights depending on
           | calibration.
           | 
           | If you look at the actual sensor wavelengths, you'll notice
           | that they don't cover the same frequency spectrum as RGB
           | sensors or human eyes. It's all interpretation and
           | calibration (that's why the Mars rover have a colour
           | calibration plate on them).
           | 
           | Another method (often used with astrophotography) is using a
           | single monochrome sensor and put RGB filters in front of it,
           | take separate pictures with each filter and recombine them
           | (done on Earth).
           | 
           | You can see the frequency bands of the filters used in MERs
           | Spirit and Opportunity here:
           | https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/edr_filename_key.html
           | 
           | (the rovers used 16 different filters, so no RGB there)
        
             | _Microft wrote:
             | A smartphone camera, DSLR or other camera does not work any
             | differently though. It's just that an array of color
             | filters is fixed above the sensor's pixels which would also
             | be monochrome if it were not there. The readout of these
             | pixels is automatically converted to a color image then, or
             | stored as RAW for later processing.
             | 
             | This color filter array is called a "Bayer filter".
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter
        
               | qayxc wrote:
               | I'd say there's still a difference in that while DSLRs
               | and smartphone sensors have individual readouts for each
               | colour channel, scientific instruments do not. So a DSLR
               | or smartphone camera still outputs a multichannel image
               | with a single sensor while scientific instruments are
               | strictly monochrome.
               | 
               | They don't take multi-channel pictures in a single shot
               | and each full image represents a single channel. HST for
               | example has three cameras - one per channel - while the
               | MER cameras have a single sensor with multiple filters.
        
               | _Microft wrote:
               | From what I know sensors do not have different readouts
               | for the different color channels. All pixels are read out
               | the same way and, with knowledge of the pattern of the
               | Bayer filter in use, are then processed ("de-mosaiced")
               | into a color image.
               | 
               | If one removed the Bayer filter from a sensor (as
               | difficult as that is) and skipped demosaicing while
               | processing the image, one would end up with a monochrome
               | image just fine. Using physical color filters for
               | different channels and taking the same scene for each of
               | them, one could create a single color image with even
               | better resolution than the camera normally would. Why
               | better? - this might disappoint you now! - consumer
               | cameras count each differently colored 'sub'pixel as a
               | full pixel. So half of the "megapixels" of your camera
               | are e.g. green and just a quarter of them each red and
               | blue (that's a common ratio for the colors). The camera
               | then 'fakes' having a full set of RGB pixels by
               | demosaicing, see
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demosaicing ). Taking
               | monochrome image with physical color filters would allow
               | to use the full resolution of the camera for each color
               | channel.
        
               | qayxc wrote:
               | That's exactly what I wrote, though.
               | 
               | > From what I know sensors do not have different readouts
               | for the different color channels.
               | 
               | You know wrong then. HST uses three camera sensors
               | precisely to have three different filters at the same
               | time and at full resolution:
               | https://www.stsci.edu/hst/instrumentation/legacy/wfpc2
               | 
               | So yes, the WF/PC2 does indeed have different readouts
               | per channels because each channel has its own dedicated
               | sensor.
               | 
               | Maybe you simply misinterpreted what I wrote. The fact of
               | the matter is that consumer level sensors return multi-
               | channel images (the sub-pixel filtering is an irrelevant
               | technical detail), while scientific instruments use
               | dedicated sensors per channel.
               | 
               | edit: just to clarify even further - there are no
               | subpixel shenanigans with scientific instruments for both
               | higher precision and to avoid cross-talk between
               | frequency bands; hence separate sensors per frequency
               | filter. if you want multiple channels at once (e.g. space
               | telescopes), you therefore need multiple sensors as
               | opposed subpixel filtering.
        
               | _Microft wrote:
               | OK, I think I understand the confusion now. I understood
               | "readout" as hardware implementation detail (think:
               | "readout circuit") while it seems to refer to the data of
               | a particular channel, right? My lack of familiarity with
               | the lingo seems to blame then.
               | 
               | That "subpixel shenanigans" on scientific apparatuses are
               | inacceptable should be understood.
        
             | tigershark wrote:
             | What you are saying doesn't make much sense. It's obvious
             | that the images are taken on different wave lengths and
             | recombined. Cameras with a Bayer filter use exactly the
             | same principle but have worse spatial resolution because
             | they have micro-filters on each pixel and the result is
             | interpolated. Foveon sensors work in the same way with
             | different layers sensible to a specific wave length. Even
             | our eyes work in the same way with the rods and cones that
             | are sensible to luminance and different wavelengths. By
             | your definition what we see are not colour images since
             | they are processed after the fact by our brain from the
             | separate wave length signals coming from the receptors in
             | our eyes.
        
               | qayxc wrote:
               | You misinterpreted what I wrote then.
               | 
               | Yes, a consumer-level camera sensor uses Bayer filtering,
               | but that's just an implementation detail just like the
               | rods and cones inside the retina - you don't perceive
               | each channel individually after all, lest you wouldn't be
               | able to perceive "brown" or "pink".
               | 
               | So any analogy between CCD sensor output and human eyes
               | ends right there.
               | 
               | The difference lies in the output of the sensory
               | mechanism (be that human eyes or CCD sensors). While
               | consumer level hardware outputs multichannel images (yes,
               | by means of subpixels and Bayer filtering, but that's
               | irrelevant - for the sake of argument it could as well be
               | pixies), scientific instruments use separate CCD sensors
               | for each recorded channel to a) keep the full resolution
               | and b) avoid cross-talk between different frequency bands
               | , which is unavoidable with the subpixel setup used in
               | commodity hardware.
               | 
               | So while your smartphone or DSLR's RAW output will be a
               | multichannel image, instruments onboard of spacecraft
               | will only ever output a single channel per sensor. No
               | subpixels, no Bayer filters. Either one dedicated sensor
               | per recorded channel (e.g. HST WF/PC2 camera) or multiple
               | images taken in series using a single sensor but multiple
               | filters (e.g. cameras onboard MER and MSL rovers).
               | 
               | I hope that was a little clearer.
        
               | fulafel wrote:
               | I'd argue if you have sensors that take images in
               | multiple wavelengths, and they are combined, it amounts
               | to a imaging system (=camera) that senses colors - vs
               | upthread argument of "colored black and white images".
        
               | qayxc wrote:
               | The issue is that the multi-wavelength combined image
               | doesn't correspond to RGB like the RAW output of DSLR or
               | smartphone camera.
               | 
               | The different bands received from spacecraft, rovers and
               | (space-)telescopes are matched with red, green and blue,
               | even though they're actually taken in near infrared, UV,
               | or even X-ray spectra.
               | 
               | The "truth" is that the images are only monochrome
               | representations of recorded photons of different
               | energies. Most people don't see near UV light for example
               | and some images are taken in very narrow bands and then
               | "stretched" into "full" RGB, etc.
               | 
               | The point is that the recorded data doesn't correspond to
               | the human vision apparatus (or at least not well) an thus
               | any multi-colour representations are necessarily
               | fabricated and sometimes don't even try to reflect what a
               | human would have seen.
        
               | tigershark wrote:
               | The Foveon sensor that I mentioned before works exactly
               | in the same way getting 3 full resolution images at
               | different wave lengths, exactly like the scientific
               | cameras. And I'd argue that the only difference between
               | this approach and the eye/Bayer sensor is the resolution,
               | the underlying mechanism is exactly the same.
        
               | qayxc wrote:
               | But does the Foveon sensor use RGB filters or does it
               | work with different frequency bands? That's a major issue
               | with science data - it doesn't contain RGB data for the
               | most part, because that's not what scientists are
               | interested in.
               | 
               | What's the correct colour channel to use for for near UV
               | (yes, I know that some people - mainly women - can
               | perceive that, but the vast majority of people can't)?
               | What matches near IR or even X-rays? How would you
               | colourise the frequency bands that match different
               | elements (those include very narrow bandpass filters) but
               | don't really make sense in terms of RGB?
               | 
               | That's the difference right there. If you have a picture
               | that uses channels of different filter bands that
               | correspond to hydrogen bands, organic molecules or UV
               | radiation, none of that data correlates to human colour
               | perception. So someone just chose shades of green for
               | hydrogen or shades of blue for organics.
               | 
               | So what I'm trying to say is that the underlying
               | mechanism is irrelevant - the data simply isn't colour
               | data as seen by humans.
        
       | dredmorbius wrote:
       | What captivates me about the drawings is the range in detail and
       | accuracy. Keep in mind that naked-eye observations are difficult,
       | limited to the colour sensitivities of the human eye, and often
       | are working at or near the limits of perception --- the fanciful
       | details on Mars are extrapolation of a very small blurry rusty
       | dot.
       | 
       | The detail of the sunspot images is exquisite.
       | 
       | The other aspect is that until the advent of photography, _all_
       | image preservation was mediated by the human eye, mind, and
       | artistic ability, and often the 2nd or further-removed hand
       | accounts and relating of original events or objects. (See
       | Albrecht Durer 's rinocerous for one of my favourite examples of
       | this.) The century or so from the mid-19th through mid-20th
       | century where direct analogue impressions of images, sound, and
       | movement were possible gave us a period of robustly reliable
       | records (within the limits of equipment, and still subject to
       | manipulation). The age of computer-modified and -generated
       | imagery once again leaves us with high-fidelity images which may
       | have remote, little, or no bearing on any actual reality. This
       | includes, for what it's worth, many of the NASA images provided,
       | which are more data interpretations than realistic
       | representations of astronomical objects.
        
         | narag wrote:
         | I also thought that wasn't "fair" since many of the comparison
         | images are taken with long exposure times.
         | 
         | I have a very old astronomy book that includes similar drawings
         | of Jupiter and they're much more detailed and realistic.
        
           | dredmorbius wrote:
           | Where "long" may be measured in anything from hours to
           | months.
           | 
           | The Hubble Ultra Deep Field image (a follow-up to the
           | original 1995 Deep Field image of an "empty" region of sky),
           | has a total exposure time of just under 1 million seconds (11
           | days), with single channel exposures of a minimum of about
           | 1.5 days.
           | 
           | This somewhat exceeds the duration and light-collecting
           | capabilities of a human observer.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra-Deep_Field
           | 
           | Though granted, such prolonged exposures aren't necessary for
           | the nearer observations (many within the solar system)
           | included in the article here.
        
           | redisman wrote:
           | Especially the Orion Nebula. I see the picture on the left
           | and think oh yeah that's almost exactly what I see with my
           | scope. Then on the right it's some crazy photoshopped
           | (playing with channels) long exposure.
        
           | tusslewake wrote:
           | Curious, what is the book?
        
             | narag wrote:
             | "Astronomia" in Spanish, by Jose Comas Sola. It was a gift
             | for me, almost 50 years ago. I think it was a little dated
             | already.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | >> and artistic ability
         | 
         | Don't forget the physical limitations of the medium. Want to
         | paint a nebula as it fades from white to the black of space?
         | Try to paint a gradient between two colors, a steady blend from
         | white to black across a few inches. It is the sort of thing
         | even the great masters never attempted because it is basically
         | impossible.
         | 
         | These images were not meant to be exact representations. These
         | are anatomy diagrams. They allow the reader to understand and
         | recognize the objects rather than be mirror images. We have
         | photographs, but doctors still learn from hand-drawn diagrams.
        
       | wumms wrote:
       | What happened to NASA's Saturn?
        
         | sirfz wrote:
         | Click on the link under the picture to view the intended photo.
         | I'm still interested how this error happened tho
        
           | red_trumpet wrote:
           | Also it's the same as the teaser photo at the beginning of
           | the article.
           | 
           | Edit: Could also be that the photos on the server changed.
           | After all the article is 5 years old.
        
         | sedan_baklazhan wrote:
         | It became a vintage Soviet photopaper with a weird name.
        
       | matoyce wrote:
       | The 1800s astronomical drawings are very detailed and accurate. I
       | do wonder how beautiful are the night skies in the last 100-200
       | years. Today's light pollution made it hard for us to appreciate
       | the beauty of the night sky.
        
       | stunt wrote:
       | Everything about early astronomical drawings is astonishing. Even
       | when you go way back in time when they had no telescope, they
       | were still able to map out visible stars pretty accurate.
        
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