[HN Gopher] Canada's awful new proposals on "harmful" content
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Canada's awful new proposals on "harmful" content
Author : shadowprofile76
Score : 66 points
Date : 2021-08-14 13:43 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (pluralistic.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (pluralistic.net)
| AlanYx wrote:
| It bears emphasizing that Hacker News will likely be forced to
| geoblock Canadian users if this legislative draft becomes law. It
| applies extraterritorially and the absurdly large administrative
| burden and financial penalties for noncompliance will make
| serving Canadian users untenable.
|
| There is also enough ambiguity in the proposal to worry about the
| continuing availability of commercial unfiltered VPNs in Canada,
| at least in the longer term.
| cjdaly wrote:
| Interesting that this is happening at the same moment Glenn
| Greenwald is promoting (Canada based) Rumble as a free-speech
| alternative to Youtube.
|
| https://greenwald.substack.com/p/strengthening-substack-jour...
| choronno wrote:
| Never thought I'd say this, but this makes me want actual
| Republicans now in Canada to fight such complete ordure.
| gentleman11 wrote:
| I'd you are Canadian, please visit the link to find the feedback
| submission form and write your objections
|
| https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/campaigns/harmful...
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| This is China tightening the noose on another country.
| codeecan wrote:
| I expect Canada to become a police state (its already on the way)
| and the brain drain to accelerate.
|
| Bill C-10 and C-36 are horrific China emulating policies, loose
| definition of "hate speech", bypassing courts in favour of human
| rights tribunals with 100% conviction rates and no requirement of
| evidence, preventative enforcement by police.
|
| With C-36, even saying something truthful, if causes perceived
| harm is a punishable offence.
|
| People with money and skills will continue to move south.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > Bill C-10 and C-36 are horrific China emulating policies,
| loose definition of "hate speech", bypassing courts in favour
| of human rights tribunals with 100% conviction rates and no
| requirement of evidence, preventative enforcement by police.
|
| Didn't the current premier's father do pretty much the same
| thing (suspend constitutional rights) in the 70's for...
| dubious reasons to say the least? He was also the man who paved
| the way to normalize relations with China and Cuba, two nations
| known for their respect of human rights.
|
| > and the brain drain to accelerate.
|
| On the hiring side I can tell it's happening.
| leereeves wrote:
| > Didn't the current premier's father do pretty much the same
| thing (suspend constitutional rights) in the 70's
|
| Yes, it was called the October Crisis.[1]
|
| I don't think we should be judging Justin Trudeau for his
| father's actions, but we should judge him because when he was
| asked to apologize (on behalf of the government) for the
| October Crisis, he refused.
|
| 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis
| bbarnett wrote:
| I think you both need to read a bit more, and also, listen
| to released (more than 50 years, such recordings must be
| released) recordings of private meetings at the time.
|
| While no PM is perfect, when the Premier of Quebec phones
| the PM, and says (paraphrasing here) that "the separatists
| are everywhere, I don't know who to trust in the police, my
| own staff, they're all around me", while little girls are
| being killed by bombs, diplomats are being kidnapped and
| slaughtered, maybe declaring martial law isn't a completely
| bad response.
|
| And when you see this at the start of the article:
|
| _The Premier of Quebec, Robert Bourassa, and the Mayor of
| Montreal, Jean Drapeau, supported Trudeau 's invocation of
| the War Measures Act_
|
| Well, come on....
|
| I personally find the current laws being passed to be
| highly dangerous, and very disturbing, but trying to
| compare it acts taken against domestic terrorists, and
| lunatics, is a little wonky.
| bbarnett wrote:
| To give a bit more clarity....
|
| Canada is not a police heavy state. And you get a
| premier, and mayor, saying the police cannot be trusted.
|
| You cannot deploy troops domestically for police action
| in Canada, without the war measures act.
|
| What would you do?
|
| I find it best to ask such a question. What would you do?
|
| You weren't there. You aren't even fully aware of the
| complete history, nor what the RCMP domestic terrorism
| unit said to the PM.
|
| what do you do?
|
| Not that, you may say. Well, arm chair quarterbacking
| seems all too easy, to me, and is often wrong.
| leereeves wrote:
| Suspension of civil liberties in response to political
| unrest is not an uncommon response. We've seen it in the
| US. That doesn't make it right.
|
| I'm not Canadian, so perhaps I shouldn't arm chair
| quarterback Canadian history, but you asked what I would
| do.
|
| I'll respond to a similar scenario that hits a lot closer
| to home for me: would I have supported the detention of
| hundreds of Muslims after 9/11, without any evidence
| they'd committed a crime?
|
| Absolutely not.
|
| And on that basis I feel perfectly comfortable saying
| that the detention of 500 people in Quebec, without any
| evidence they'd committed a crime, was wrong.
|
| ---
|
| Edit: I'm "posting too fast" so I'll respond briefly here
| to the posts below:
|
| > so democratic that we have allowed votes on separation
| over the years
|
| Canada hadn't allowed such votes before the October
| Crisis. The first referendum on Quebec sovereignty was in
| 1980.
|
| Holding a referendum in 1970 would have been preferable
| to the violence and the suspension of civil liberties,
| but only the [mostly anglophone] government could have
| called such a vote, and it wasn't done. Not then, and up
| to that time, not ever.
|
| So when you say that the Quebecois were trying to
| separate "by force, without vote", remember that such a
| vote was not an option available to them.
| bbarnett wrote:
| The difference is, a province in a democratic nation, so
| democratic that we have allowed votes on separation over
| the years, yet we had terrorists deciding they're going
| to split a province, without vote, without democracy, by
| violence. That they intend to seize power by force.
|
| It was a very, very tumultuous time. It was the civil war
| that almost was.
|
| And with many civil wars, 99.99% of the population did
| not want violence, but would have been caught bleeding,
| dead on the street.
|
| Was it right? I don't know. But I know enough to restate
| this ... how can I judge?
| bbarnett wrote:
| I'll add a little more here; context.
|
| Were the muslims trying to break 1/5th of the landmass of
| the US, and 40% of the population, by for force, without
| vote?
|
| Was there evidence those muslims were part of the group
| which caused 9/11? And that group held political
| prisoners, were blowing up random things, and threatening
| even more violence and death?
|
| It is hard to find parallels here.
|
| EDIT
|
| Heh, I hit that filter just now...
|
| Anyhow...
|
| The votes for separation were not federal, but
| provincial. Quebec chose when to hold such votes, not
| Ottawa.
|
| The premier at the time was french.
|
| Also note that more than half our Prime Ministers have
| been french.
| [deleted]
| mdp2021 wrote:
| An elephant in the room is worth noting: democracies were built
| to avoid dystopias, yet there are growing trends of "it is
| better to leave" in long established democracies - "Contact
| your representative then" increasingly seems to no longer be an
| established, working idea.
|
| Several factors may accompany this phenomenon: polarization;
| perceived failures in education1; sometimes anti-centrism in
| the government; political (the purpose of the party) and
| societal (the affiliation of the citizen with peers) crisis of
| identity...
|
| --
|
| 1and Canada is the Country which promotes the relevant OECD
| studies
| zo1 wrote:
| Could also be the absolute futility that "contact your
| representative" represents now? I think more and more people
| are realizing that change can't happen that way anymore,
| particularly as you can't even organize grass roots movements
| without media and social-media approval these days. The only
| things that can get critical mass now to enact change from a
| citizen perspective are popular causes that are essentially
| "approved". Good to guard against bad movements like say
| commies or nazis, but absolutely horrible for popular but
| "not in the right direction" movements.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| The path of least resistance in 2021 is different from that
| of 1951.
|
| It is much cheaper now to move to another country and you can
| stay in frequent online contact with your kin. Back then,
| only serious oppression or poverty would force people to
| emigrate. If the problems were more tractable, people stayed
| and attempted to solve them in situ
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Yes, but unfortunately, this "impotence option" means the
| relevant problems will get increasingly radicated.
|
| Some of us are "on the run" in the hope for a better
| society like nomads looking for natural resources, while
| civilization was meant to be engineering a solution space
| in a collective plan, building, not staying someplace until
| it is spoilt.
|
| It is a huge failure if the terms and conditions of the
| social contract have come to include <<[practically]
| intractable problems>>.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| You are probably right.
|
| For example, within the EU, there is free movement of
| people and workforce, which sucks out the best and the
| most talented people from the peripheries like Andalusia
| or Bulgaria and lands them in the very prosperous regions
| of the north-west where they can find good and well-
| paying jobs.
|
| This is a major problem that cannot be solved by spending
| extra money on building infrastructure in the
| peripheries. Infrastructure is fine, but a new highway
| won't heal anyone's cancer. Lack of doctors and engineers
| cannot be easily countered with development projects that
| tend to be mired in corruption.
|
| Not even immigration can help that, because highly
| qualified immigrants won't stay in the periphery, and
| unqualified immigrants cannot provide the necessary work.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| There's a lot oF China comparison in that article too, but if
| you compare China to India, isn't it accurate to say that
| China's policies in this domain have actually prevented brain-
| drain and created a significant domestic industry, the exact
| opposite of what the author and your take suggests?
|
| looking at the globe I don't really see a strong correlation
| between the success of technology, even directly in social
| media and freedom of expression.
|
| Nowhere on the globe do 'digital sovereignty' style politics
| seem to benefit American companies. Just seems like an
| ideological take. I think it's pretty likely that a Canadian or
| European firewall would actually just promote Canadian or
| European operated business, because natives tend to have an
| edge when local values are baked into the system.
| lucasyvas wrote:
| Am Canadian. No offense to my southern neighbours, but if it
| ever comes time to move because of this, my direction won't be
| south.
|
| I'll probably play twister and hope the direction it lands is a
| good one.
|
| North American trends have not been great lately in general.
|
| Maybe I'll finally get that European passport I've been putting
| off.
| takenpilot wrote:
| Same. Am Canadian, already south. This is not the place.
|
| I'm looking at Northern Europe (good privacy laws) or
| Singapore (the rules are draconian, but very clear).
| weiliddat wrote:
| Singapore would be a toss up in terms of privacy, but it is
| excellent and friendly for work-focused, law-abiding, norm-
| conforming kind of people. I don't mean it in a bad way.
| type0 wrote:
| Netherlands, although not perfect still has some classical
| liberal ideals. Singapore is a "Disneyland with the Death
| Penalty", who in their right mind would go there.
| weiliddat wrote:
| And the death penalty is applicable to a tiny proportion
| of the population (disproportionately drug smugglers). It
| might not be your ideal, but please refrain from implying
| someone else is crazy for living there.
| [deleted]
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Yup I'm applying for an EU country passport myself (via
| family ties). Canada is a terrible place if you want to start
| a business, now house prices are getting insane and the
| recent encroachment on freedoms as well as lack of pushback
| from the population is pretty much the last straw for me. You
| can make more money and pay less taxes while having more
| affordable housing and better healthcare and education in a
| number of countries.
| zo1 wrote:
| And when it gets worse there too, what then?
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| There seems to be a lot more pushback against government
| overreach in most EU countries as well as the US.
|
| In Canada, most people applaud more government overreach.
| Just like everyone was more than happy to snitch on their
| neighbours during the pandemic.
| type0 wrote:
| "Canada is considered harmful", "Australia is considered
| harmful", "UK is considered harmful" etc
| greyivy wrote:
| > This discrimination is sticky, because SESTA caused the
| shuttering of forums where sex workers advocated for their
| rights. The more marginalised the speaker, the worst it is -
| which is why the most heavily impacted group is trans women of
| colour.
|
| This can't be understated. _Who_ are these bills benefiting at
| the end of the day? Because the most marginalized people in my
| life -- and those who are most often the targets of hate speech
| -- are being pushed even further to the margins by legislation
| like this.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| "Who are these bills benefiting at the end of the day?"
|
| Politically active people who want to feel good about
| themselves?
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| "Who are these bills benefiting at the end of the day?"
|
| Everyone's future overlords.
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(page generated 2021-08-14 23:02 UTC)