[HN Gopher] The Secretive, Semi-Illicit World of WhatsApp Mango ...
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The Secretive, Semi-Illicit World of WhatsApp Mango Importing
Author : ryzvonusef
Score : 119 points
Date : 2021-08-13 08:10 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.eater.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.eater.com)
| keyrat wrote:
| Seeing this on HN, the first thing I focus on is WhatsApp. But if
| you read the article, this is a story that could play out on many
| networks in 2021; it just so happens WhatsApp is the most
| popular.
|
| In my town, in the US, WhatsApp also plays a large role in civic
| life, commerce, rumors, etc., for better or for worse. It does
| feel like the medium is the message, but all the alternatives
| seek to more or less replicate the medium.
|
| There is something to be said about WhatsApp being so integral to
| this story, but if you read the article, that's not really the
| story.
|
| Anywho, we have pretty good mangoes here either way.
| nvusuvu wrote:
| From the article, it mentioned that WhatsApp lets users make
| free international calls. Not sure if that distinguishes it
| above other comms channels.
| el-salvador wrote:
| WhatsApp is the main method of communication in some
| countries.
|
| Where I live my most recent experiences interacting with
| businesses after a short phone call is switching to WhatsApp.
| "Do you have WhatsApp in this number?".
|
| I'm not surprised that mangos can be ordered via WhatsApp.
| Like a friend of mine works in a purchasing department in
| company, and the last two cars the company bought were
| negotiated via WhatsApp.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| There is no "international" calling distinction when using
| the internet. FaceTime audio, Google Duo/allo/whatever,
| Skype/Teams, WeChat, and I'm sure there are plenty of other
| apps that let people communicate via audio.
| Arrath wrote:
| Indeed. I've even used Discord to good results while
| traveling internationally, find any cafe or hostel with
| WiFI and you're good to go.
|
| WhatsApp just had more time to get entrenched, I think.
| dendriti wrote:
| That's interesting. I was under the impression that Facebook
| filled the group chat niche in the US.
| atatatat wrote:
| There's pockets of everything.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| If you had any international contacts, then WhatsApp was the
| no brainer when it came out because it was the best cross
| platform messaging solution at the time. The only people who
| did not use WhatsApp were people who did not have
| international contacts (or maybe used WeChat, but I am not
| familiar with those social circles).
| hollerith wrote:
| Facebook owns WhatsApp now, so . . .
| pierrebai wrote:
| People are discussing in hushed tones of mangoes at parties?
|
| The world sure has changed.
|
| Yes, this is a comment about what I call the New-Yorker tired
| long-form style of writing. Hype, hyperbole, weird mix of
| personal anecdotes, facts and always with a heavy syrup of cold-
| war-era like of under-cover midnight-meeting, world-weary, globe-
| trotting investigation.
| IfOnlyYouKnew wrote:
| The main appeal of the article is that it uses the language you
| criticize, but applies it to a whimsical subject. It's somewhat
| humorous and self-deprecating.
|
| Your comment is similarly rich in adjectives, but lacking in
| all other regards.
| dotcommand wrote:
| Are you paid to defend articles/journalists here from
| criticism all day? This is the second time you've attacked a
| HN member for legitimately criticizing an article. People are
| entitled to their opinions. Why are you attacking them for
| it?
| yitchelle wrote:
| Similar scenarios are being played out Durians as well in many
| countries, mainly due to its pungent smell. :-)
| [deleted]
| GordonS wrote:
| Heh, was a member of a similar group a couple of years back, but
| for curry leaves. There was some kind of blight going round in
| parts of India, and they were banned from import into the UK.
| baybal2 wrote:
| USA has a lot of non-tariff barriers, and they are applied very
| arbitrary. USA is very protective of its food market.
|
| Some times it looks very silly how one country is burdened to the
| neck with sanitary restrictions, while its neighbour not so far
| away can be having none of that.
| edge17 wrote:
| A bunch of people are pointing out the phytosanitary concerns.
| For mangos coming from India, they were made legal under Bush.
| But the problem is the Latin American market has a strong hold
| on the US mango market and does not want India or others to
| enter it. All the fibrous [low quality] Tommy Atkins mangos
| come from Latin America.
|
| USDA inspection requires the US side to place agents in the
| country of export to do the inspection. The US, while making it
| legal, never did place enough agents. My guess is this was done
| via lobbyists for the Latin American exporters.
|
| Also, I should point out that before covid I was able to find
| boxes of Alphonso mangos at some of the local Indian grocers,
| albeit very expensive ($70-$80).
| mschuster91 wrote:
| This is not something specific to the US per se, but a
| commonplace thing in pest control.
|
| For example, I'm German. Up to September 2020, we exported
| _lots_ of pig parts across the world... then we got hit by a
| single case of an infected wild pig, and since then we can 't
| export much outside the EU any more.
| op00to wrote:
| It's almost as if the risk of fruit pests is greater coming
| from a country that does not share a border (or hemisphere).
| cout wrote:
| The Asian longhorn beetle is one such pest that is thought to
| have come to the US through shipping containers and is one of
| the reasons for strict shipping regulations. I knew nothing
| of it until the forestry service came knocking on my door
| informing me of an infestation near where I live and asking
| permission to test my trees. I like my habitat the way it is,
| and I'd like it to continue to be healthy.
| jschwartzi wrote:
| Yeah we have a similar problem where I live with giant
| hornets. They came here through shipping and now I suspect
| we'll never be rid of them. Himalayan Blackberry also comes
| from a farmer importing plants to grow without considering
| that birds would distribute the seeds. It's so pernicious
| here that you have to patrol your property for it and
| remove it monthly. New shoots can sickly take over an area.
| One shoot I saw had climbed 30 feet into the canopy of one
| of our red cedar trees.
|
| Agricultural exports are very dangerous if not handled
| carefully.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Well, take for example how US treats Indonesia, and Malaysia.
|
| Sanitary restrictions are up there against one type of fruit
| pests, but Malaysia, being an ex-British colony, has it much
| easier.
| mint2 wrote:
| This story makes me angry. Customs rules exist for a reason.
| Invasive species cause billions of dollars of damage annually and
| destroy ecosystems. Oh but you got to taste a rare mango so it's
| okay!!
|
| Edit: another comment mentioned it's all legal and the title is
| bad. But I made it half through the very long article and it
| mentions illegals instances and only rare legal instance so far
| although I was skimming. I am still mad.
| sciurus wrote:
| I think the title is bad and you're missing details due to
| skimming. The author walks through the entire process the
| mangoes he is purchasing go through, including irradiation at a
| USDA-approved facility.
| divs1210 wrote:
| Just pointing it out in case people are unaware, but anyone
| involved in _illicit_ trade with Pakistan is, as a side effect,
| funding terrorist groups like Taliban.
| weimerica wrote:
| > but anyone involved in illicit trade with Pakistan is, as a
| side effect, funding terrorist groups like Taliban.
|
| I'm not particularly educated or opinionated on the topic. With
| that said, why is it not possible one is simply funding
| criminals with monetary intent in an operation like this - does
| the Taliban have a strangehold on criminality throughout
| Pakistan?
| dotted_vulcan wrote:
| In a similar way, any one engaged in _illicit_ trade with
| India is funding terrorist groups like the RSS.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| How does that work in the Indian diaspora abroad, when
| someone is discovered doing illicit trade?
| malshe wrote:
| I have not come across any so far.
| malshe wrote:
| This is some high class trolling on HN.
|
| Folks who are reading this comment, RSS is not a terrorist
| organization.
| reactspa wrote:
| I'd be willing to bet that there's also tons of actual illegal
| stuff going to and fro in those mango boxes.
| draklor40 wrote:
| Salem gundu and banganapalli FTW !
| edge17 wrote:
| There is some subtlety that is being left out in the discussion
| here. Latin American and US producers have a huge incentive to
| keep others out, so even though it's legal to import in 2021 with
| the right inspections, importing still requires support from the
| USDA.
|
| You can see the countries that dominate imports here (screenshots
| because USDA site is slow): https://imgur.com/a/Xkum5Kh
|
| original USDA source:
| https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?programArea=fruit&top...
|
| Worth noting, the National Mango Board, which operates under the
| USDA Agricultural Marketing Service oversight, lists it's roster
| here - https://www.mango.org/about-the-nmb/meet-the-nmb/meet-the-
| bo...
|
| Going down the list, the country/region affiliations of the board
| members are mostly obvious and leaning in favor of Latin America.
| These appointments are until 2023 and have no representation for
| the largest mango producers - India, China, Thailand, Indonesia,
| Pakistan, etc. - also the countries most people agree produce the
| best mangos in the world.
|
| Taken as a whole, my interpretation is there's a strong lobby by
| Latin American and US producers keeping the USDA from supporting
| mango imports from non Latin American countries. In the end,
| competition drives quality - and until the Latin American and US
| producers have a need to compete, we will keep getting lower
| quality and fibrous mangos in the US.
| whall6 wrote:
| I've never had a mango from Pakistan, but I lived in Cambodia
| for two years and the mangoes there entirely eclipse the
| mangoes sold in the states. It's just a different level.
|
| I'm sure if someone is willing to go through that much effort
| to get some mangoes from Pakistan, they must be good. I'll have
| to try some one day.
| JamesSwift wrote:
| I just moved to a house in Florida that has mango trees. At
| least 2 varieties in fact. The 2 taste and feel so entirely
| different they could almost be different fruit.
|
| Point being I'm not sure there is a way to cast a general
| attitude for mangos, let alone from a certain region. Its
| almost certainly the specific cultivars rather than the
| region that you don't care for.
| sparrish wrote:
| I've eaten mangoes from China, Thailand, and Pakistan (not
| Cambodia). The best I've ever had was in Paraguay, South
| America. Brazil was a close second.
| jareklupinski wrote:
| i had a mango at my Pakistani friend's house when I was 8 and
| have been chasing that sweet, stringy, savory taste ever
| since
|
| i can't understand a mango that you can slice
|
| its gotta be soft like a marshmellow
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| The situation brings to mind Milton Friedman.
| jareklupinski wrote:
| first tomatoes, now mangoes...
|
| is there some black market for produce from countries that
| don't lobby my poverty-stricken representatives?
| phekunde wrote:
| Few years ago I tried to import Haapoos(English name, Alphonso)
| mangoes in the UK from India. I was informed by the authorities
| that bulk import is not allowed. A person can carry mangoes in
| luggage while entering the UK. But bulk importing was disallowed.
| That was a bummer, as these mangoes are very delicious and has
| some fantastic aroma.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| What's bulk VS personal? I can eat 3 a day and they ripen at
| different times so... that can be a lot.
|
| Canada has a bunch of rules for when food imports are no longer
| personal, but it's clearly protectionism. I can go through
| hundreds of pounds of potatoes over a winter.
| newyankee wrote:
| The greatest mangoes come from Ratnagiri in India, something
| difficult to import to US as well
| blueblisters wrote:
| I would like a double-blind randomized study to verify this
| please.
| Tepix wrote:
| I'm voluneering to be a tester!
| spikengineer wrote:
| Not a problem since the last two years - widely available but
| expensive. They are irradiated at BRIT, Navi Mumbai and shipped
| of directly to Atlanta. India now has many irradiation
| facilities and exports are picking up.
| KarlKemp wrote:
| I tend to find it somewhat gauche to shill for your own
| country[0] in such an obvious way. It's transparently obvious
| that it's not objective, and all it does is leave an ugly
| impression of the speaker, the country, and, in this case, the
| mangos.
|
| The fact that it happens predominantly, almost to the exclusion
| of other nations, with India doesn't escape anyone's notice.
| Three times in this thread alone, by my count.
|
| 0: based on similar comments in the past
| vrc wrote:
| At the same time, mangoes in the US are not good. One out of
| many will have the right flavor. But in mango regions, you do
| have far more extreme and distinct textures and flavors. So
| it may not be shilling a country's product -- if you read
| most people are shilling their region's mangoes that they
| grew up loving. This is far from shilling a country as I bet
| these shillers are claiming superiority over other Indian
| varieties as well.
| jeswin wrote:
| Upvoting you, what you're saying is quite accurate and as an
| Indian, it's embarrassing for me.
|
| Part of the problem is that India doesn't have too many
| things to brag about - so we're super sensitive about
| culture, food, umm fruits etc. The right wing tends to be
| especially loud on these matters.
| eat_veggies wrote:
| This is such a weird comment. India is well known for its
| mangos, and the article is about importing them from Pakistan
| and India because they're so good compared to mangos from the
| U.S. Why shouldn't Indians share their clearly relevant
| experiences and opinions here? And why are you bothering to
| keep count?
| capybara_2020 wrote:
| I will fight you on that...the best ones are the Alphanso
| mangoes from Salem in India. The problem is they are so scarce
| even in Salem. So they are not as available as the Ratnagiri
| version.
|
| The is a variety of mango called Sugar Baby(Direct
| translation), a whole different type of mango. You bite into it
| and suck the flesh out, and there is no cutting.
|
| End of season Banganapalli is also fantastic. The ones, in the
| beginning, have a sulfuric tinge to them sometimes.
|
| I think the west misses out a lot on mangoes. The same thing
| with bananas, the west has the most boring type of banana.
| Unfortunately, even in India, the more exotic varieties of
| bananas are dying out.
| vishnugupta wrote:
| Raspuri is the greatest of them all.
| debarshri wrote:
| This reminds me of the Bangapalli mango dealer of den haag. I
| vividly remember that day. It was really dark night with full
| moon. He gave me a location which was near schildersbuurt which
| is a shady place in hague. In reached on time, but no one was
| there. But the moment he arrive at the spot, out of no where
| there were 50 people or so just came out to collect their
| mangoes.
|
| It was pretty cool experience.
|
| One of the thing, which was really nice about that guy was if
| mangoes would get spoil during the travel, he wouldn't charge you
| money.
|
| I remember someone told me once that importing alphonso mango was
| banned in netherlands because of invasive fruit flies that could
| come with it.
| owenversteeg wrote:
| Wow, that's crazy, I think I tried to buy mangoes from the same
| exact guy in The Hague! It didn't work out the year I tried it
| for whatever reason unfortunately...
| barathr wrote:
| What's also not well known is that the 2006 U.S.-India nuclear
| deal is what opened the door to Indian mango imports:
|
| https://georgetownvoice.com/2006/03/16/more-nukes-for-indian...
| intended wrote:
| The title of this article is going to create a (hopefully
| friendly) flame war.
|
| Also for the record, the best mangoes are categorically Alphonso.
|
| But it goes without saying - the varieties from mango season beat
| the supermarket fare by astronomic margins.
| debarshri wrote:
| Alphonso is the best!
| [deleted]
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I've never had an Alphonso, but my research indicates that it
| is _very_ similar to my beloved Carrie, just from different
| regions. So can we agree to let them share the throne?
| debarshri wrote:
| I never had a carrie. But I just saw a youtube video. Looks
| quite similar. The best of the alphonso is ratnagiri hapus.
| It is much bigger than the regular alphonso, more juicy and
| sweet. It has more orange-ish hue in the flesh.
|
| [1] http://thewesternroutes.blogspot.com/2015/03/mango-
| picking-t...
| mazelife wrote:
| Well in the spirit of a friendly flame war, I'm going to put my
| stake in the ground and say that Carabao mangoes from the
| Philippines and specifically the Galila, Tablan, and Fresco
| varietals from the island of Guimaras are the best in the
| world. Twice I've been lucky enough to end up in Guimaras--a
| tiny island off the southern coast of Panay--once I ended up
| there during the annual Manggahan Festival just by lucky
| happenstance. And my god, are the mangoes amazing: perfumey,
| floral, intensely sweet; they're the Sauternes of mangoes.
|
| They are quite delicate and my understanding is that almost all
| the exports from there end up in Japan. I've certainly never
| been able to find them on either coast of the US. They've
| somewhat spoiled me for mangoes now as everything you can get
| here is rather insipid by contrast.
| intended wrote:
| Interesting, I've just had a massive Mango year (one of the
| silver linings of COVID I guess), and these are varietals I
| haven't seen before. I'll keep a look out for a chance to
| snag them.
|
| It sounds like a rare variety to find though. Is this the
| case?
| mazelife wrote:
| I don't get the sense that those varietals will only grow
| in Guimaras, but the locals will tell you that it's not
| just the varietal but also the specific soil, micro-
| climate, and cultivation methods of the island that makes
| them special. I have no idea to what extent that's true,
| but while I've had lots of good mangoes all over the
| Philippines, the ones from Guimaras were definitely the
| best.
| lambdasquirrel wrote:
| Japan does have a thing going for fruit[0]... they even have
| a luxury fruit store[1].
|
| [0] https://www.dw.com/en/japan-fascination-with-
| fruits/a-576983... [1]
| https://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/inside-japans-most-
| insane...
| ciguy wrote:
| I second this opinion. Guimaras Mangoes are simply the best.
| I don't know anyone who's tried them and disagrees.
| Alex3917 wrote:
| > Also for the record, the best mangoes are categorically
| Alphonso.
|
| How do they compare with different Asimina triloba cultivars?
| Or just too different to even compare?
| intended wrote:
| Hmm, I have not heard of a paw paw before. But it looks like
| an interesting fruit to try!
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| While Paw Paw tastes great, there's something special about
| Hapus. The texture and the flavours are amazing and the
| sweetness is just perfect. They go very well with Jack Fruit
| and Pineapples as well!
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| I think this might be a coping mechanism as PK thinks they're
| the inheritors of Mughal empire. But Pakistanis claim falls
| flat as the best mangoes in the world naturally come from the
| area where Mangifera Indica is native to.
|
| Compared to the Langda, Haapus, Dashehri, Banganapalli, and
| countless other stellar varieties, PK has nothing to show.
| owenversteeg wrote:
| Oh my god, I got into one of these mango buying groups once! I
| had no idea it was a worldwide phenomenon. The little group I
| found was in the Netherlands and, of course, conducted in a
| pretty shady way over Whatsapp. At some point someone was even
| going to charter a plane for the mangoes, but then something
| happened and it all fell apart at the last minute :(
|
| [edit] apparently someone else in this thread has bought from the
| same sketchy Dutch mango dealer, this is hilarious.
| _hyn3 wrote:
| "semi-illicit"? It's flat-out illegal, not semi-illicit.
|
| Inadvertently or not, illegal imports can bring in invasive
| species, like the Asian carp or even less interesting things like
| fruit molds that threaten native species and often spread like
| crazy. There's a reason why imports are regulated.
|
| And, it's potentially a felony under the Lacey Act. That's why
| it's secretive. This isn't sneaking out at night after your
| parents grounded you.. this potentially damages entire
| ecosystems.
| Pyramus wrote:
| Did you actually read the article?
|
| Semi-Illicit here is meant as "feels illicit", not that they
| are. They are fully certified imports and a great part of the
| article describes the logistics.
| edko wrote:
| I wonder if they are they paying the corresponding sales and
| income taxes.
| [deleted]
| mc32 wrote:
| This reminds me of a couple of odd Mango stories. One, the gift
| of Mangoes by the Paki diplomats to chairman Mao[1] back in the
| '60s. It looked like the Chinese didn't fully understand the
| symbolism of the mango, but ran with it and turned around and
| made it into a worker's symbol) and the one about the Miyazaki
| mango[2] where some random guy offered the sapling of an
| expensive mango to an unsuspecting recipient who later learned it
| was a very valuable variety.
|
| [1]https://www.dawn.com/news/1457496
|
| [2]https://www.vice.com/en/article/k783gy/worlds-most-
| expensive...
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| Paki is a ethnic slur (like N word) and should not be used in
| civil discussions.
| mc32 wrote:
| It seems that may be the case sometimes, in some parts of the
| world, but not unless the speaker intends it to be -which I
| don't. I shall try to avoid it, out of caution. If the mod
| pleases, please use the correct demonym, I'm outside the edit
| window.
|
| People from Pakistan use this word themselves:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28167429
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| > Customs restrictions, high transport costs, and a short shelf
| life have made the world's greatest mangoes -- grown in Pakistan
| -- difficult to come by in the U.S.
| hulitu wrote:
| I thought that the United Fruit Company has the "world greatest
| mangos". If you believe that fruits shipped half the globe are
| great, no comment.In europe fruits and vegetables from more
| than a couple of hundred kilometers are terrible. They are
| picked up green and get ripe in the supermarket.
| krylon wrote:
| So it's a lot like software development, then. (SCNR)
|
| But I agree, when I buy fruit, I usually have to let it sit
| for a while before it is good to eat.
| petre wrote:
| It depends. Cherry tomatoes from Italy or Morocco are okay.
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| export pre-processing of preishable fruits greatly affects
| quality IMHO; I know it's probably in my head, but I
| sometimes feel I can judge the lower quality in the Ethylene
| ripened products
| notdang wrote:
| That's not only in Europe. I live in Mexico, but in a huge
| city of millions of people. Guess what, most of the fruits
| and vegetables are terrible, even from the street markets.
|
| Turns out if it's a city of millions you need an industrial
| scale agriculture and logistics. So yes, the
| fruits/vegetables are picked green and are tasteless.
|
| To get something more tasteful I have to escape to a much
| smaller place.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| "Worlds greatest mangoes"
|
| "Grown in Pakistan"
|
| [citation needed] I'll argue South Indian grown mangoes are the
| tastiest (also I'm South Indian). Given the fruit likely
| originated there (along with its name).
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| Citation: Me, a paki who has lived abroad in different
| countries and tasted kenyan, thai, indian and paki mangoes
|
| ;p
|
| might be the patriot in me, or maybe i've had access to more
| mangoes (both in quantity and variety), but mangoes here just
| taste ....orgasmic
|
| and we don't even get the good stuff, that's exported
| bobsil1 wrote:
| I went to a tasting at Reliance Jamnagar, where they
| planted mangos (for tax breaks?). Endless varieties plonked
| on your plate. A flight of mangos. Still an alphonso fan.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Kesar mangos from India is my choice. And I have never
| had any mango grown in the Western Hemisphere anywhere
| near comparable to an Indian mango. The ones I had in
| Zimbabwe and Kenya were really good though.
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| I think freshness plays a part, I ate the non-pak mangoes
| abroad, and they must have suffered in quality from the
| export process, while the mangoes I eat here were
| probably picked (relatively) close by and thus fresher
| jfk13 wrote:
| No doubt this is to some extent a question of personal taste.
| For me, although the Chaunsa mentioned in the article is
| among the best, nothing beats a beautifully ripe Sindhri
| mango. I lived in that region for a while, and the all-too-
| short Sindhri season was one of the highlights of the year.
| gadders wrote:
| I thought that claim might start a battle with South Asian
| neighbours :-)
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(page generated 2021-08-13 23:01 UTC)