[HN Gopher] Culdesac Tempe: The first car-free neighborhood buil...
___________________________________________________________________
Culdesac Tempe: The first car-free neighborhood built from scratch
in the US
Author : foofoo4u
Score : 206 points
Date : 2021-08-10 20:03 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (culdesac.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (culdesac.com)
| dkhenry wrote:
| Why only one bedroom apartments? You can't build a community that
| you think will stand for any amount of time and be this hostile
| to families.
| kevinpet wrote:
| Given the sprawl in the Phoenix metro area, this is utterly
| unsuitable for families who need to shuttle kids to school.
| Arizona has flexible school choice and people aren't tied to
| their neighborhood school.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Because these sorts of developments are typically trying to
| fill the trailer park or retirement community niches without
| incurring the negative baggage that comes with either.
| crooked-v wrote:
| Both of those have kids around more often than you'd think,
| even if it's just visiting grandkids during the summer.
| godot wrote:
| I'm making a wild guess here, but I think the missing context
| from this web site and other comments is that this is intended
| to be a college town community. If you look up the address
| (2025 E Apache Blvd, Tempe, AZ 85281) it's a walkable/bikeable
| distance to Arizona State University which (from my
| understanding) is the prominent college in the Phoenix area.
| trynewideas wrote:
| Bikeable if you're comfortable with biking on Apache or
| University, but not really walkable. It's 2+ miles of
| sidewalks and throughfare crossings to the actual campus. I
| imagine that's why the site stresses bike and transit so much
| -- it's 100 feet from an Orbit route, 0.3 mi. from a rail
| stop, and 0.7 mi. from Valley Metro bus stops, and all go to
| campus.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| I'm personally tired of only having a choice of multi-bedroom
| apartments wherever I go. I would love to get a small one
| bedroom loft thats cheap and low maintenance but all the
| housing is setup for families.
| jseliger wrote:
| I live in the Phoenix area and put down a small initial deposit
| (something like $100) for Culdesac: while I primarily work from
| home, my partner still works at multiple sites west of downtown
| Phoenix, which makes Culdesac impractical, even though I love the
| idea of it. Right now, Phoenix's light rail system runs east-west
| between downtown Phoenix and Tempe, and north-south from downtown
| to uptown, but none of those locations are near the important job
| sites.
|
| Other background on Culdesac:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/31/business/culdesac-tempe-p...
| starkd wrote:
| I get the sense you will either think this is the most wonderful
| place on earth or the most miserable place. Not much in between.
| The photos look clean, new and very cosmopolitan, but it's a very
| anodyne sterile look to it. Like a corporate brochure from human
| resources. It's not real, not real life.
| lutorm wrote:
| Since it's not actually photos, I agree that it's not real
| life....
| _huayra_ wrote:
| These efforts seem well-intentioned but doomed to fail because it
| requires government action to make the rest of the area work ,
| i.e. be more walkable / bikeable.
|
| It's great you can bike from your pricey apartment to your
| friend's, but try getting passed by a bunch of distracted drivers
| going 50mph faster than you on the arterial stroad when getting
| to the nearest reasonably-sized grocery store that is 10 miles
| away because bike infrastructure is often "man up and pretend
| you're a car" in the US.
|
| Not to mention anything involving grade-separated, rail-based
| public transit...
|
| What we really need are YIMBY policy changes to improve these,
| e.g. separate bike infrastructure (note: it has almost zero
| maintenance costs because bikes produce almost no pavement
| damage), relaxing of development policies to allowing MFU or
| town-house (row house?) condos to be built, or at the very least
| getting rid of ridiculous SFU requirements like enormous setbacks
| or low max-area usage (e.g. a burb house built on an enormous
| lot!).
|
| One notable advancement I did like from this proposal: having a
| "time-share-esque" guest unit. I do enjoy having space for family
| members to stay with me when they visit, but it feels so wasteful
| to have that space all the time (requiring maintenance,
| insurance, more mortgage) compared to having this guest unit
| thing common to all units in the development.
| crazcarl wrote:
| The apartment complex that I lived at in 2009 had a fully
| furnished 1br apartment available to rent nightly by tenants
| for their guests. I used it a few times and it was very
| convenient to have guests stay there onsite instead of at a
| hotel. Definitely agree it is a great amenity for them to
| advertise.
| baby wrote:
| It needs to be an entire district, not just a few buildings.
| vinceguidry wrote:
| Not doomed to fail. Just doomed to not deliver what you're
| asking for, true car-free living.
|
| I moved to the nicest part of my city and drive twice a week,
| on weekends. When I go into the office, I walk. A neighborhood
| like this with cars evicted to the periphery would be miles
| better than this. It's already possible to commute without a
| car. You just have to plan your life around it. Which you're
| already in for if you're considering moving to a planned
| community like this.
|
| Going completely car-free is always going to a tough thing to
| ask for for a country as spread out as the U.S..
|
| I expect in the next 20 years we'll start getting streets back
| into urban centers to replace the stroads*.
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM
| GavinMcG wrote:
| Having lived down the street from this site, I'm also
| skeptical. Tempe has some bike infrastructure, but the high
| temperatures four months of the year and the spread-out nature
| of the larger Phoenix metro makes a car a priority for most
| people, and cities (including Tempe and neighboring Mesa)
| design around that. There's a bike path to the west of this
| site that runs north-south but terminates after only a couple
| miles, at one of the many highways that define the larger metro
| area. And to the east is ASU's main campus...but it's two miles
| east, which is a long way to walk in May and September, at
| least.
|
| There is a low-end grocery store a mile away (on a divided
| stroad) and nicer grocery stores within two or three miles. The
| main virtue is that it's along the Metro light rail line, so if
| you're really committed to using that, you're not in bad shape.
| nwatson wrote:
| I love Tempe, though, might hope to move back, have several
| siblings and surviving parent in the area. My wife's family
| is in North Carolina (moved here 8 years ago after 21 years
| in Silicon Valley) but some day ... might head back.
| rollinggoron wrote:
| Not sure how long it's been since you've lived in Tempe, but
| the entire downtown area has been completely revamped and
| revitalized. The emphasis on bikes, walkable restaurants, and
| light rail access on Apache itself make this not an overall
| bad location. Your other points about the rest of PHX metro
| area outside of Tempe are true though. Neighborhoods for
| blocks for miles, but Tempe, especially downtown Tempe is
| trying hard to change that.
| GavinMcG wrote:
| I was biking along Apache within the last 18 months. Apache
| itself still isn't [/wasn't] especially bike-friendly.
| McClintock is worse, and Price is even worse.
| grp000 wrote:
| I'd taken up biking during the pandemic, and for a while
| was doing a loop from south Tempe to Tempe Town Lake and
| back. In a 4 month period, I was almost run over twice
| biking through downtown Tempe. Both times from right
| turning drivers where I had to swerve out of the way before
| they finally noticed me.
|
| Regardless of the infrastructure, which is just passable by
| US standards in the downtown area, people just are not
| expecting cyclists.
| browningstreet wrote:
| I went to ASU (in the 90s) and my family is still in the
| area, and I typically (and perhaps stupidly) visit in June...
| and when I go back to the old "neighborhood" I always see a
| ton of people riding their bikes around in the June heat.
|
| With an e-bike, 2 miles is nothing.
| chrisco255 wrote:
| E-bikes are game changers, agree there. I'll take a 15 mile
| bike ride on my e-bike and it's a breeze with pedal assist.
| Natsu wrote:
| You can definitely bike if that's your thing, I mean it's
| 35C right now, but there are a lot of times when it's
| 40-45C. Or occasionally 50C.
|
| This could theoretically be good for someone who works from
| home primarily, but you really do need access to a car to
| get around Phoenix in general. Some day you're going to
| want to visit, say, the Renaissance Faire and biking from
| Tempe to Apache Junction is unlikely to be an attractive
| option for most people. And I pity any Uber drivers that
| get contracted to help get someone through the traffic jam
| for that.
|
| There are a decent amount of bike lanes and whatnot, but
| the city was optimized for cars, which is why all the self-
| driving tests are there and you can see a Waymo every other
| day or so, including that new smaller car.
|
| The light rail is great if you want to go to downtown
| Phoenix or the ball park and maybe for ASU, but a bit less
| attractive for many other destinations. Meikong Plaza and
| H-Mart on Dobson aren't very far from the light rail, but
| walking ~1 mile in 45C weather with groceries only works
| for the younger and healthier folks. Asiana or Fujiya are
| probably non-starters for someone using the light rail,
| being 2-3 miles away. Don't get me wrong, you can take your
| bike onto the light rail (or bus) and get there, but it's a
| significant effort and if it's one of those few days that
| hits 50C, most people's willpower will give out.
|
| I'm surprised they don't compromise a bit and have a
| handful of community cars that are shared by some
| agreement. Then again, I suppose that Uber/Waymo can take
| over there. It honestly looks pretty cool, but we tend to
| use the cars a lot and outdoor stuff is only attractive
| between October and May or so.
| notJim wrote:
| > [the climate/city layout] makes a car a priority for most
| people, and cities (including Tempe and neighboring Mesa)
| design around that
|
| This gets the cause and effect totally backwards. Phoenix and
| the surrounding cities are all designed for cars at the
| expense of bikability, transit and walkability, and people
| need cars because of that. There are lots of walkable cities
| in places with more uncomfortable climates than Phoenix (ever
| been to Bangkok?). Walking in Phoenix would be a lot more
| tolerable if the city wasn't so spread out and had better
| public transit.
| na85 wrote:
| >Book a Guest Suite or day in the Makerspace through the Culdesac
| app and we'll handle the rest.
|
| The neighborhood has its own app? That sounds horrific.
| kernoble wrote:
| I'm curious how big the adjacent parking lot or parking garage
| will be.
| moeris wrote:
| The renderings are almost entirely of white people. Are they not
| aiming for diversity, or is Arizona just very white?
| mbfg wrote:
| i got to say, the one prominent black guy in the model seems
| more robotic looking then the rest of the people. It kind of
| jumped out to me too. Maybe it's just that he's so close to the
| camera.
| nyx-aiur wrote:
| The renderings are pretty diverse, even the 2d illustrations
| are diverse and the team behind it all is pretty diverse as
| well. Maybe open your eyes.
| talor_a wrote:
| https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/tempecityarizon...
| tempe is majority white, but you're right about the renders
| ars wrote:
| Aren't blacks around 10% of the population? That's about what
| the renderings show.
| tomato44 wrote:
| If there were diversity, there couldn't be collaborative
| spaces.
| jedberg wrote:
| Don't the 100F+ temps sort of prevent walkability in Arizona?
| rollinggoron wrote:
| You'd be surprised how much it does not. Not saying its the
| same amount of folks out during Fall/Winter/Spring, but a
| surprising amount due walk.
| maxk42 wrote:
| Frequently 120+.
| V99 wrote:
| If by "frequently" you mean "that one day in 1990"... The
| single highest day of the year for most years is 115 +- 3.
| vondur wrote:
| I think people tend to do those activities in the early
| mornings or after the sun is down.
| keepper wrote:
| Ah yes, nothing like building a "sustainable" community in the
| dessert.
|
| Yes, there's sarcasm in there.
|
| But part of long term human sustainability is well, figuring out
| the areas we should not fight the environment ( more than
| reasonable ) to be able to sustain a human population.
| eikenberry wrote:
| I don't really see anything addressing the heat issue of the
| location (AZ). In most hot environments people tend to minimize
| outdoor time, moving quickly from one AC'd zone to another. How
| do you get places while staying out of the heat in a neighborhood
| like this? Tunnels?
| headcanon wrote:
| I've been to AZ, it has a fairly vibrant outdoor community. The
| heat looks bad on the numbers but its a dry heat, so your sweat
| glands can operate at full efficiency, making it not feel so
| bad. It can be an issue for vulnerable people as well, and of
| course I can't speak to how that changes with Climate change.
| jborichevskiy wrote:
| I want this but a few thousand feet up in elevation, surrounded
| by trees, and preferably near a lake. Can't take the heat.
| globular-toast wrote:
| I'd love to live in a car-free neighbourhood. My town centre had
| blocked off all the on-street parking to make extra-wide walkways
| during the pandemic. Just last week they've removed the bollards
| and resumed the parking. It's awful. Ugly cars lined up taking up
| all the space. I can't believe I'm the only one who notices how
| much worse it is. I've lost hope in anything changing, though.
| People are just too dependent on their cars to let them go.
| Causality1 wrote:
| How in the world did they get a trademark for something as
| generic as culdesac?
| Animats wrote:
| It's just a superblock in a developed area. Major roads on both
| sides. Here it is in Google StreetView.[1] Looks like they bought
| up a few trailer parks and leveled them to build this. It looks
| like an ordinary apartment complex, without parking.
|
| [1]
| https://earth.google.com/web/search/2025+E+Apache+Blvd,+Temp...
| sib wrote:
| As a borderline introvert, all I can say is, "wow, that looks
| extremely crowded and uncomfortable right outside my 'front
| door'."
|
| (And I have lived in Manhattan and in a mid-sized city in
| Germany, although I currently live in Los Angeles.)
| baby wrote:
| Yeah this seems more like coliving than an a european
| neighborhood.
| Thorentis wrote:
| Unfortunately this project lacks two things which are essential
| to a long-lasting, sustainable, and human-friendly town.
|
| 1) Architecture that inspires, elevates the soul, and will last
| the test of time. All I see is soulless pre-fabs. It looks like
| you're living in a shopping mall.
|
| 2) The freedom to create buildings and institutions that are
| meaningful to the residents who reside there. Churches, schools,
| sporting clubs. Trusting the company behind this to provide for
| your every need is naive. Maybe it will work for some people. But
| will people want to move and raise children here?
|
| Creating one-off experiences is not the way to create the
| sustainable towns and cities of the future. This is like Airbnb
| taken to an obscene level. We should be designing car-free towns
| where people can buy property, design beautiful homes,
| participate in a small local economy, work locally and start
| small businesses, create the local institutions that their
| children and their children's children will participate in. I
| don't want to rent my space in a town I'm only partially attached
| to. I want to put roots down, and build things that will last.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| 1 is a quintessential first world problem. If the value prop of
| the neighborhood is good people won't care how it looks.
|
| 2 is doing to doom it long term though IMO
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| Given how cheap land is in the far north part of California, I've
| always wondered why there isn't a city built specifically for
| walking and bicycling up north of Sacramento.
|
| Seems like with everyone telecommuting, if you build a community
| with a good school and with walkability and bikeablity, you could
| probably attract some families from the Bay, where prices are so
| high that people are looking for alternatives that are within 2 -
| 3 hours drive of the Bay Area.
| [deleted]
| kozak wrote:
| So, there are some concept images, but no real plan of the
| territory yet, right? Or did I miss it?
| aeharding wrote:
| Is Tempe/Phoenix any good for getting around without a car? All I
| know about is the sprawl and hostile road design.
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| No, it's not really liveable without a car.
| mattcantstop wrote:
| For those who are interested in what makes a great town, I
| recommend two books: Happy City by Charles Montgomery, and Strong
| Towns by Charles Marohn. Both were red pill/blue pill books for
| me on what makes a great city.
|
| When my wife and I moved we completely changed what we were
| looking for in a house/community. We wanted a Main Street style
| town. We used to love master planned communities with huge
| houses. In our small, Main Street style town all of our kids can
| walk/ride to school, we have two grocery stores within 2 miles
| away, and all our doctors are biking/riding distance. It's
| changed how we live. We sold our second car. We own so many
| bikes. We are more active.
|
| Cul-de-sac looks really promising. I've been following along and
| am excited to see what they create. We need more experiments,
| even if some don't work out.
| Improvotter wrote:
| Definitely agree! I would recommend the YouTube channel "Not
| Just Bikes" which has a series about the book Strong Towns and
| in general focuses on better city planning:
| https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A
|
| The terrible layouts of US cities and neighbourhoods are what
| keep me in Europe. There is nothing you can do in the US
| without a car because it's so car dependent and it wastes so
| much time compared to walking or biking places. The beautifully
| walkable cities you find in Europe are so much more enjoyable
| to live in.
| jhbadger wrote:
| A lot of East Coast US cities are a lot more walkable -- the
| image of the sprawling US city is mostly true of West Coast
| cities that underwent their primary growth after WWII and the
| ubiquity of cars. For example, I live in Washington DC (well
| technically a suburb, but near a Metro station) and don't
| drive. I have grocery stores and restaurants within walking
| distance and can take the Metro for other things.
| golemiprague wrote:
| Manhattan is a car free neighbourhood in the sense that as a
| resident you don't need a car. This is an apartment complex with
| couple of shops.
| deltasixeight wrote:
| What's the energy usage per area. per capita? I doubt this can
| beat tokyo, HK, Tapei or NYC.
|
| If you want to build an actual car free place you need high
| density buildings and a subway system. A place like NYC or Tokyo
| is the true future of cities.
| trevortheblack wrote:
| I live 5 miles from the location and have visited the Tempe area
| many time for recreation.
|
| While there isn't much in the way of infrastructure at this part
| of Tempe at the moment, it's close enough to the main boulevard,
| called Mill, and close enough to downtown phoenix.
|
| The entire Phoenix area is quickly becoming a popular place to
| live and lots of tech is moving here. Phoenix is, _in general_, a
| decent third or fourth choice across a ton of different metrics.
| Tech jobs, decent university system, growing economy.
|
| Yeah, the weather can be downright terrible, but lots of people
| from CA are moving here during the pandemic. Indeed, Arizona
| State University (based in Tempe) is a tremendously popular
| school for high schoolers from CA.
|
| I'm going to recommend investing in real estate to everyone I
| know in the area.
| ars wrote:
| All the houses are single bedroom? They expect no kids at all?
| Rapzid wrote:
| Honestly, I think they nailed their target demographic for the
| lie they are trying to sell.
| lstamour wrote:
| By the time I scrolled to the swimming pool render, I started to
| think that the photos weren't very realistic. Then I realized
| why: everybody was white in the renders. There was a token person
| of colour here or there. But it was poorly added. The black guy
| at the swimming pool is in the back. And unlike everybody else,
| he forgot his swimwear...
|
| This is one of the first times I've seen "Corporate Memphis"
| illustrations where the skin colours are exclusively shades of
| white and pink.
|
| Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the nice drawings and car-free
| ideals, but those renders and illustrations seem rather tone-deaf
| for 2021...
|
| Also, if you're downvoting me, please reply with why I'm being
| downvoted. I smell astroturf... This is a legitimate concern
| about the project. I'm not saying anything particularly negative,
| but if Culdesac Toronto ever wanted to kick off, they would need
| a more multi-cultural set of renders than this. It's incredibly
| distracting to the point of being clearly offensive.
| lutorm wrote:
| I didn't color survey the renders, but the first picture at the
| top of the page has a non-white person front and center.
| jrsdav wrote:
| I live in a master planned community (Daybreak, Utah), and while
| you can definitely scoff at the building quality (state of things
| everywhere right now, it's all done fast and with low quality
| materials), it's been fantastic, especially during the pandemic.
|
| The whole neighborhood is designed to be walkable, with parks,
| pools, trails, train stations, grocery stores and restaurants
| (added in the later phases, which are being developed right now)
| within 5 minutes of your doorstep.
|
| It gets a bad rap from locals on the outside, but talk to the
| people living here (mostly expats from out of state) and nearly
| all of them say the same thing:
|
| > "We love it here!"
|
| and
|
| > "Why aren't more communities built this way?"
|
| I will say though, the US is poorly equipped for bicycle
| commuting. Even our neighborhood doesn't have many dedicated bike
| paths, opting instead to share the road with cars. Most diehard
| cyclists I know will tell you it's a matter of "when" not "if"
| you have a scary encounter with a driver. And with the amount of
| gigantic trucks on the roads out here that people use as their
| commuter cars, you can imagine these encounters don't typically
| end well.
| [deleted]
| stemlord wrote:
| Ive seen several attempts at master planned neighborhoods with
| little town center type things with the idea that youd rarely
| have to leave, around South Florida growing up, and even lived
| in one for a few years. They all failed miserably. I feel like
| ones that succeed are just lucky. These communities can have
| basic predetermined guidelines to how growth can happen but the
| actual growth needs to happen organically. You cant just plot
| and build every house in town at the start, and you cant expect
| that things wont change as things pan out. Otherwise youre
| forcing residents to live in this deterministic Truman Show
| world lacking real freedom, echoing the major failures of a lot
| of mid 20th century heavy-handed big-ego design that we still
| suffer the effects of today
| notJim wrote:
| I'm skeptical that all planning is necessarily doomed to
| fail. Towns already do a considerable amount of planning via
| their zoning rules, and subdivisions are planned as well. The
| example here just seems like a subdivision, but planned for
| walkability rather requiring you to drive. Where did the
| place you lived in go wrong?
| ethanbond wrote:
| Well... most towns/subdivisions with zealous planning suck.
| The best cities in the world appear to be very organically
| grown. Maybe this is an illusion?
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Well Manhattan, for example--obviously at first it
| developed organically, but the upper part of the island
| was largely planned, with a grid system of streets and
| avenues and a large park in the center!
| jerry1979 wrote:
| I decided to take a look at Daybreak on google maps, but I'm
| having a hard time understanding how the layout is different
| than other developments. I do notice that the lane system looks
| nice as opposed to just having alleys. Is there other stuff you
| like?
| slg wrote:
| For sake of comparison, Wikipedia says Daybreak is over 4000
| acres while Culdesac is 16. These projects aren't close in
| scale and I think the "neighborhood" in the marketing for
| Culdesac is misleading regarding what life would actually be
| like living there. There are several individual buildings in my
| neighborhood that house more people and I still need a car on a
| regular basis.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > "Why aren't more communities built this way?"
|
| I chose to buy a house in Ballard Seattle just so I could be
| near things and not have to drive (along with a bunch of
| streets shutdown for bike/pedistrian traffic + the Burke Gilman
| bike trail). It costs a lot more, and we don't have a huge
| yard, but you can get those things without going for a planned
| community if you don't mind some urban living.
|
| When I lived in SLC I got most of the same thing (living near U
| of U in an old Victorian). Well, the biking was a bit harder,
| no trails, but it was easy enough (maybe I was just younger
| then, however).
| dragontamer wrote:
| The shared makerspace seems like a neighborhood level thing.
| There's all sorts of services / hobbies that make more sense to
| be neighborhood based instead of nationally based.
|
| Tools and workshops are like that. The biggest issue with
| tools/workshops is liability. Someone's going to lose a finger,
| or a rotary tool will pull out their hair / a piece of their
| scalp... (even with all the safety precautions, its going to
| happen. There are some real idiots out there), and then
| everything goes to crap.
|
| In a neighborhood solution, there's more local trust in each
| other, and a social contract where people care for each other.
|
| In a city-solution, you need to bootstrap the community out of
| nothingness. When newbies come in, you've got forms and
| disclosure agreements and training videos to minimize the
| issue. It works but... I'm inclined to see how their
| neighborhood scale makerspace scales.
|
| --------
|
| Everyone wants that "doohicky": a holder for your lawn-mower's
| starting line that broke off last week. A new holder for your
| favorite coffee mug that got smashed. Etc. etc.
|
| 3d Printers + some woodworking equipment + a few skilled
| individuals who hang out for fun / leisure can solve these
| minor problems.
| conductr wrote:
| > liability
|
| IDK. Tool rental companies existed for decades. I'm sure the
| fine print is so good that you're assuming all liability by
| merely thinking about using their tools
| JPKab wrote:
| Boulder Colorado here:
|
| Bike commuting is amazing here, as it is in many parts of the
| US that have the population density and public funding to
| execute it.
|
| Anyway, Daybreak sounds amazing, and yeah, communities like
| that will always get "bad raps" from locals outside of it. It's
| human nature:
|
| These places are usually priced very high per square foot, due
| to the huge demand vs. supply of walkable neighborhoods. Locals
| outside of it see it as a luxury purchase, and then associate
| the residents with the most snobby behavior of the few snobs
| who inevitably inhabit it.
|
| I'm going to take a wild guess that the locals outside of the
| community have stereotypical nicknames for it like "People's
| Republic of Daybreak" or "Bankbreak" or something like that,
| lol.
| [deleted]
| milkytron wrote:
| Very similar situation here. Master planned community with meh
| build quality, but our neighborhood is designed to be transit
| oriented. We don't have a lot of amenities within the
| community, mostly just a bike trail, and a light rail stop.
| Hopefully some retail and a grocery store open up nearby soon,
| because about 500+ units are all being built within a quarter
| mile. And well over 1000+ within a half mile.
|
| The bike trail is my favorite part. It connects to the major
| bike trails in my city, which allow me access to all the major
| sporting venues, downtown, major shopping centers, and job
| centers. I used to ride ~7 miles per day traveling from the
| office, and about 20 miles each weekend just going to do things
| I would have otherwise done via car. It allowed me to sell my
| car.
|
| The light rail also makes things convenient if the weather
| isn't so great.
|
| The odd thing is that nearly everyone in the community still
| drives everywhere, and some own multiple cars. Parking is a
| disaster and everyone complains about it, but these were all
| new builds and the buyers all should have known that parking
| would be limited.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| The same thing happens in all new communities re: schools,
| sports facilities, fire departments, etc. You can argue that
| the developer should have to account for these needed public
| goods, but everyone buying knows they don't exist, then
| immediately complains that they don't exist once they move
| in.
| milkytron wrote:
| Idk if the developer should have to account for those
| services. I think that's more of the role of local
| government. And I'm not complaining, just hoping that some
| things get built. I was fully aware of the lack of services
| when I moved in, and others should be as well.
| tseing wrote:
| Where is this, if you don't mind me asking?
| samstave wrote:
| I have a bit of subjective personal and professional experience
| with all of this (design, policy, politics, zoning, economics,
| etc etc etc...
|
| It ALL comes to one thing: ECONOMICS.
|
| And I don't mean a balanced budget - I am referring to greed
| and corruption.
|
| One may thing that greed and corruption is rampant on a federal
| level; no just look locally: HOS and Municipal governments
| (city councils etc)
|
| Did you know that many municipal government agents have been
| paid off by telco industry to literally write laws against a
| municipality installing their own data infra?
|
| Alameda California is just one.
|
| Did you know that a single family home must sit on no-less than
| a 2,000 S.F. lot regardless of size, and all homes (defined by
| the actual front-door-entrance), must have zero shared infra?
| (Sewer, water, power, etc)
|
| The zoning laws are working actively against the building of
| smaller home-facilities -- and all the hedge funds are swooping
| in with dark money, dark legal and dark politics to fuck
| everyone over and in ten years we will see the actual impact -
| but it will be too late.
| mikem170 wrote:
| > all the hedge funds are swooping in with dark money, dark
| legal and dark politics
|
| I'm concerned about this also. I wonder if this is something
| that can be mitigated somehow via referendum?
|
| It seems wrong if the will of the people in a democracy has
| to take a back seat to hedge fund profits, especially when it
| comes to a place to live. it's tough though, current
| homeowners don't want there to be more houses...
|
| Or maybe we'll luck out demographically, when the baby boomer
| generation dies they'll be less demand for housing.
| cmurf wrote:
| It's more of a polyarchy. The U.S. system is unique
| (originally but unremarkable today) in two respects:
| written constitution, and not a monarchy. _Ambition must be
| made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must
| be connected with the constitutional rights of the place._
| Madison
|
| The argument against the first constitution, the Articles
| of Confederation, is that the federal government had
| essentially no power. The argument against the second, it
| it's effectively created a presidential democracy, or
| unitary executive. It's a model our diplomats expressly
| avoided when helping other countries write a constitution.
| It's fragile, and while it's so far been stable in the U.S.
| it's possible we've just been lucky so far.
|
| But a polyarchy doesn't guarantee democracy, even
| representative democracy. It certainly wasn't pluralistic
| at its founding: white, male, land owners. It took a long
| time to unwind that and here we are with most states in one
| form or another trying to make it harder for people to
| vote. Can a democracy democratically undemocratize itself?
| Sure.
|
| If it wants to weaken or even obsolete democracy, by any
| combination of action or inaction, that's what will happen.
| One of the classic examples is the principate period of the
| Roman Empire. It had the veneer of a democracy, including
| having a senate, but there was an emperor who had all the
| real authority. That period lasted over 200 years, so it's
| not like we'd necessarily see the end to elections, laws,
| casting aside the constitution, or any of the other
| institutions we think display proof of "democracy".
| pomian wrote:
| Your description in the beginning, sounds a lot like Europe.
| Hopefully planners start to reduce the footprint of future
| construction, so they are walkable.
| hamburgerwah wrote:
| It should be pointed out that this "neighborhood" is just a mixed
| use apartment complex of 760 rental units that does not currently
| exist yet though construction has sort of started. All pictures
| shown are renderings and this link is basically content marketing
| for it. They seem to cost ~$200-300 more per month than a market
| studio with parking in the same area.
| trynewideas wrote:
| I think "market studio" really depends on the target. Student-
| targeting studios are definitely $200/mth cheaper and Tempe has
| lots of those, but "luxury" studios within 0.5 mi. are already
| at the same price or higher.
| joshspankit wrote:
| I was amused by the "built neighborhood" being entirely
| renders.
| baby wrote:
| Yeah it really doesn't sound as attractive as an entire
| district built without cars being the first-class citizen.
| mattcantstop wrote:
| I would gladly pay $200/month more for an apartment that
| enables me to live in a walking community without so much space
| being taken up by parking. Not sure if Culdesac will fulfill
| that goal, but "you don't even get a parking spot!" doesn't
| seem like a sell, to me.
| echelon wrote:
| This looks worse than many of the suburban neighborhoods in and
| around Atlanta, GA.
|
| There are no trees. (Granted, I live in Atlanta and we're spoiled
| af with marvelous tree cover.)
|
| There's no clear demarkation of where to walk or bike. It's not
| safe to intermix the two without indications of direction. One
| elongated dog leash (ugh) or elder person and there will be
| problems.
|
| There's little privacy from neighbors. Maybe that isn't a
| problem, but yards are pretty dope and provide ample opportunity
| for gardening, customization, and dog/kid playground/activities.
|
| Again, I don't get the anti-car, anti-yard, anti-suburb meme. And
| I say this as I live in a densely populated condo in Atlanta city
| proper.
|
| Cul-de-sacs (the "old-school" car kind) have their place.
| vinceguidry wrote:
| Lack of demarcation makes things safer by raising the awareness
| of the people around you. Making things 'safer' actually
| reduces safety.
|
| I've posted this video on another thread, but it really needs
| to be spread out more:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM
| majormajor wrote:
| At first glance this looks strictly worse than something like
| Atlantic Station in Atlanta from 15 or so years ago, where you
| have a similar sort of mixed use development but also have tons
| of underground parking for when you need to visit the area or
| (as a resident) leave the area.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| There are thousands of neighborhoods in metro Phoenix that are
| designed exactly how you're suggesting. Anyone who wants that
| is positively spoiled for choice already. I don't see the harm
| in one or two developments exploring other types of urbanism,
| especially in the middle of a college town.
| dang wrote:
| A couple of past threads:
|
| _Culdesac: Building car-free neighborhoods from scratch_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21600773 - Nov 2019 (9
| comments)
|
| _Culdesac: Car-free neighborhood built from scratch in Tempe_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21574850 - Nov 2019 (136
| comments)
| munificent wrote:
| I don't see why anyone would call this a "neighborhood". As far
| as I can tell, it's just a single apartment complex that doesn't
| have parking, right?
| trynewideas wrote:
| > Studios start at $1,090/mo, and 1-bedrooms start at $1,250/mo
|
| This puts studios and 1bdrs in the low end of the largest rent
| band in Tempe ($1-1.5k) per Yardi Matrix, and on par with the
| average rent in Tuscon. All AZ cities are seeing 14% or higher
| YoY increases in rent. I'm very curious how solid those prices
| are, and how quickly they escalate ("starts at" pricing is really
| frustrating, however common it might be).
|
| Most apartments available on Apartments.com for less are in
| complexes between University and Broadway closer to campus.
| Apache Boulevard is between University and Broadway east of
| campus, and this Culdesac is much closer to US Hwy 101 than
| campus.
|
| One nearby traditional "luxury" apartment complex has studios for
| $1,040/mth and 1bdrs for $1,350/mth.
| mrobin88 wrote:
| that's call the ghetto projects. damn they really just rebranded
| them.
| hirundo wrote:
| A community "maker space" would require careful curation of
| community members to be viable. Even if everyone were honest and
| conscientious. It's so hard to find the right tool or material at
| the right time in my own shop, it would be many times worse if I
| shared the shop with the neighborhood. Sure it's a long, hard,
| expensive trudge to accumulate your own tools, but at least it
| gives you a good chance of having the use of them when you need
| them.
| unholythree wrote:
| Yeah that makerspace rendering is insane. A sewing machine,
| combo wrenches, some plant in a vase, actual monkey wrenches
| (for time travelers wtf), and a slugging wrench like iron
| workers use in heavy construction.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| Have you ever been to a community maker space? Your Comment
| reads a bit like you're treating this as a hypothetical. The
| ones I've seen usually have a mix of people owning (and
| stashing in boxes or such) their own tools & materials, as well
| as shared stuff that is usually in okay order depending on the
| place & people. Especially for things like cnc machines though
| there's no sane way to own these individually if you're not a
| power user.
| jeffbee wrote:
| I belong to three different community workshops: a membership-
| based wood shop, a motorcycle repair shop that offers both
| memberships and drop-in work, and an electronics shop for
| members. At each I enjoy access to far better tools than I ever
| had at home, especially the motorcycle shop where I would never
| have something like a crane, a parts washer, cylinder reamers,
| and tire changing machines. I feel like this model is greatly
| superior to garage DIY.
| jedmeyers wrote:
| Membership-based shops and clubs seem to work much better
| than 'everyone can come' scheme. Even at Google the maker
| spaces require an intro class, and an approval from one of
| the managing members. And one can make a case that a googler
| is expected to be a more responsible person than a random
| member of the elite no-car community.
| perl4ever wrote:
| >a motorcycle repair shop that offers both memberships and
| drop-in work
|
| Wow, I never heard of such a thing. Or, I heard many years
| ago of something vaguely like that, and also how it wasn't
| viable financially. I think Click & Clack said they'd tried
| to run a do-it-yourself-with-our-tools garage and there were
| too many idiots.
|
| I wasn't aware of any such thing existing in my area, anyway.
| jeffbee wrote:
| https://www.motoguild-sf.com/
| mrfusion wrote:
| Seems like if it's a problem they should buy more of the in
| demand tools.
|
| My makerspace also put its popular tools under webcam so you
| could check if it's in use before heading out.
| jedmeyers wrote:
| > should buy more
|
| As if the resources are infinite.
|
| HAPPINESS FOR EVERYBODY, FREE, AND MAY NO ONE BE LEFT BEHIND!
| paxys wrote:
| "Neighborhood" is a bit of a stretch. This is an apartment
| complex.
| eplanit wrote:
| Shhhh....you'll ruin the illusion. It's marketing aimed at a
| narrowly defined demographic that is highly attuned for this
| kind of imagery (Heaven on Earth, for some). As a ruse, it's
| rather well-done.
| mrfusion wrote:
| I hope this is the future of community design. We need to get
| people back together. I think most of our problems are that we
| only interact on the internet.
|
| My mom thought republicans were the devil until a guy with a
| trump flag helped her change a tire.
| criddell wrote:
| One-bedrooms start at $1250 / month.
|
| Can a community be designed so that the people working there
| can also afford to live there?
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| That doesn't seem that crazy. A couple can easily split a one
| bedroom and many jobs in service sectors are paying above
| $15/hr now so it's approachable for the average worker, and
| following your implication that it'd be higher end, I'd
| expect wages even for local service workers to be somewhat
| higher than the regional average as well (plus no commuting
| costs).
| kevinpet wrote:
| People need to get off the notion that those working the most
| entry level jobs should be living in the newest housing.
| beerandt wrote:
| I suspect that's based on what amount section 8 will pay, not
| what working people can afford.
| crazcarl wrote:
| I live about 10 min drive from there, and I honestly don't see
| how it's going to work. Yes it is right on the lightrail line,
| but otherwise it's not a very walkable area. I guess they are
| hoping to lock everyone into just doing most of their eating and
| shopping onsite. Is that actually desirable?
| bakies wrote:
| Well, currently, I just drive my car 10 min and usually eat and
| shop in the same place. That being walkable does seem
| desirable, yes. And if the nearest city was accessible by light
| rail I would certainly spend more time there.
| crazcarl wrote:
| But how many options do you have within 10 minutes? Are there
| more options if you need them than just one store and
| restaurant? I think that's what confuses me as to why they
| didn't create this concept closer to an area that's also
| walkable to other services.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| >guess they are hoping to lock everyone into just doing most of
| their eating and shopping onsite. Is that actually desirable?
|
| I am sure it would be desirable for the owners of the
| community, since they can charge the stores more money since
| they are basically giving them a monopoly within the community.
| ericmay wrote:
| Yep. That's how most of the world works.
|
| Early iterations won't be perfect, though I think with what the
| future holds this will become standard development and created
| mixed-use walkable neighborhoods.
| zeperoni wrote:
| I think they're banking on the rest of tempe over there to have
| a similar growth soon, and use the cable car that is being
| implemented. It's a gamble it will grow that way, but it seems
| like most of tempe right now is being overhauled.
| handrous wrote:
| Unless the housing's a lot denser than it looks (higher, for one
| thing), those streets and plazas seem to be way too big. Retail &
| restaurants completely detached from housing is also
| questionable, if you're going for walkability. Farther apart you
| put things, less walkable/bikable they are, so the harder it is
| for businesses to be viable without public transit or (more
| probably) car traffic.
| jedmeyers wrote:
| 360 view feels like the inside of the 1 Hacker Way.
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| I was going to say the same. It looks like the googleplex or
| Facebook classic campus
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-08-10 23:00 UTC)