[HN Gopher] Launch HN: HyperLinq (YC S21) - Desktop trading term...
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Launch HN: HyperLinq (YC S21) - Desktop trading terminal
Hi HN, my name is Amar, and I am the founder and CEO at HyperLinq
(https://hyperlinq.io/). We are building HyperTrader, a simple yet
powerful native desktop trading terminal. Our app currently
supports cryptocurrency trading, but we will soon expand into other
asset classes like US stocks. We make it easy for traders to track
multiple portfolios, discover the best prices, execute orders
faster and analyze their trades. Between my co-founders Karamvir
and Kunal and myself, we have over 30 years of experience building
trading systems. Karamvir and I worked at an inter-dealer broker in
NYC and built many trading systems together. We also used to trade
cryptocurrency. Back then there was a huge price disparity between
exchanges, so we were able to do arbitrages. We looked around and
couldn't settle on a tool that could help us simplify the workflow,
so we set out to build our own, not because we wanted to start a
business but because we simply wanted to spend less time. In early
2018, we hacked out a small app that did no more than price
aggregation and comparison. Price discovery was the main focus
rather than managing portfolios or orders. Soon we had many
friends using the app. By mid-2018, we realized there was a
business potential, but we found out that people did not want the
new features we had been building. So we threw away our roadmap and
started interviewing users. What they told us boiled down to two
significant asks: (1) A blazingly fast app; (2) Efficient ways to
execute orders. None of our users cared about multiple exchanges.
They just wanted an app better than the exchange they were trading
on. So we decided to build that. As we always wanted to build a
desktop app instead of a web app, we decided to go with Node.js,
C++, React, Redux, and Electron. We are aware that Electron is not
ideal in terms of CPU and memory usage and also the build sizes are
huge. But to begin with, we wanted to use something that can work
cross platform with a single source code. Eventually we have to
move to better options for a true native experience - a goal for
3.0. For the most part, our team has done a decent job at managing
CPU and memory so that our app is fast and reliable even when built
with Electron. Majority of the processing happens directly on the
users' machines--only a small portion of data/processing happens on
our servers. The app connects directly to the exchanges. Unlike
many other aggregators, we chose not to pick an open-source project
for connectivity. Instead, we wrote our own connectors in C++ and
deployed them as Node.js add-ons. On the server-side, we chose to
remain 100% serverless. We wrote our lambdas in either Python or
Node.js. Building a desktop app gave us many advantages in terms
of performance. Also, the peer-to-peer connectivity with the
exchanges made sure that we do not hit issues related to API rate
limits or network delays. It also helped us keep our costs low. We
plan to introduce stocks and forex trading in 2022. We want to keep
building it further and add as many asset classes as possible. Our
goal is to create a terminal that caters to all kinds of traders.
If you're interested, please try out the app and send us your
feedback. What do you think of our product? How can we make it
better? Happy to answer any comments or questions!
Author : amargautam
Score : 48 points
Date : 2021-08-08 16:38 UTC (6 hours ago)
| mellosouls wrote:
| (OT) I'm unable to play your demo vid on my phone on Firefox and
| Chrome, including after downloading it. Android 10. Perhaps an
| issue at my end but don't normally have problems.
|
| Also seems a bit heavy (200MB for 44 secs), tho perhaps that's ok
| on mobile for your target demographic.
|
| Best of luck with it all tho!
| jpgvm wrote:
| Electron isn't native.
|
| Also your website needs screenshots, a video is the last thing I
| want when considering if I am going to try a GUI especially one
| that involves people talking about abstract concepts rather than
| the actual product and it's features.
|
| If you want to appeal to traders you need to provide deeper
| technical details especially around order execution, real-time
| data feeds, etc.
|
| In my mind there are 3 types of trading systems/brokerages.
|
| 1. Hobbyist - dominated by Robinhood and Webull these are about
| having "nice" UIs. i.e looks pretty. Low or no fees but also very
| little control, payment for order flow, doesn't support most
| asset classes.
|
| 2. Investor - Mainly Fidelity, etc. Powerful but orientated
| around long-term holds. Ability to control things like loaning
| out shares for shorting, support for every asset class imaginable
| (minus maybe crypto), higher fees, phone support required for
| some tasks like executing warrants, etc.
|
| 3. Trader - IBKR, TD Ameritrade, etc. Extremely powerful UIs but
| old school looks, keyboard driven. Extreme control over order
| execution. Emphasis on real-time data feeds, depth of book, etc.
| Extensive support for options/futures/warants/cfds.
|
| You need to pick which if these 3 your system is intended to be.
| Right now it looks like mostly aimed at hobbyists.
|
| Personally I use IBKR so that probably colors my outlook. I'm
| willing to accept ugly for speed and power, traders don't tend to
| value pretty - it doesn't make you a more profitable trader.
| na85 wrote:
| >a simple yet powerful native desktop trading terminal.
|
| Electron can't be even charitably described as "native". Honesty
| in marketing is so depressingly rare.
|
| If you won't even be honest about your technology stack, how can
| I trust you to be honest with the important stuff?
| [deleted]
| amargautam wrote:
| Electron is technically not native, that is correct. We have
| never hidden the fact that we use Electron.
| MaKey wrote:
| Why pitch your app as "native" to a tech-savvy crowd then
| when it's actually not?
| na85 wrote:
| I mean your opening paragraph straight-up lies when you
| describe your product as a native application.
|
| You aren't up front about the tech details of your product,
| despite posting on one of the most technical sites around...
| Not a good look.
|
| Then you go on to claim you wanted to build a desktop app,
| and then you list React of all things. LMAO.
|
| I'm sure your product is great but you need to refine your
| pitch. You come off as disingenuous at best while you're
| asking your clients to trust you with their cryptocurrency,
| in a market segment that's already rife with fraud and scams.
|
| Anyways, best of luck with the launch.
| amargautam wrote:
| We are very upfront about our tech stack. It is clearly
| stated in my post.
|
| Regarding whether electron apps are desktop apps or not, we
| can go on and on about it. I do understand the demerits of
| Electron technically but I also see merits in using it for
| startups like ours where we can quickly build and test with
| users.
|
| Regarding trusting with users' cryptocurrencies, we don't
| hold any cryptocurrencies. They remain on the exchanges.
| snarkypixel wrote:
| I think you're being overly pedantic by focusing on the
| distinction between hybrid and native apps. As far as most
| users are concerned, if it's installed on their computer,
| /feels/ like a real app and is solving problems they care
| about, they couldn't care less whether it's built using web
| technologies or not.
| Mike86534 wrote:
| It's not pedantic. It's a basic software engineering fact.
| Electron is not native. This is not even debatable.
| amargautam wrote:
| Thank you. There you go!!
| Mike86534 wrote:
| Electron is not native. Stop calling it native.
| na85 wrote:
| Whether users care or not is a straw man.
|
| React running in a headless instance of chrome is a webapp,
| plain and simple.
| luxpir wrote:
| Haven't tried it but welcome innovation in trading terminals.
| Something that allows python algos and indicators to be
| contributed, while being faster and more reliable than cTrader,
| MT4/5 and tradingview. That's the dream. At least from an FX
| perspective.
|
| EDIT: Electron a disappointment slightly but on a Linux system I
| already use discord and signal, so should probably be more open
| to it.
| amargautam wrote:
| Thank you for your interest. It is the goal all along - to be
| faster, more efficient and reliable. We do have plans to build
| algo trading. And if users could write their own python
| scripts, that will be amazing - noted down as a feature
| request.
|
| EDIT: I understand your disappointment with Electron. We do
| have different plans for v3.
| noname123 wrote:
| While I'm not a crypto trader, but this is the primary reason
| why most people who I know do algotrading uses IBKR (for
| equity/futures/options). IB API is still king and execution is
| the best in retail - no matter how ugly TWS is.
| henning wrote:
| If you say "native" and then use Electron, I automatically don't
| trust you.
| ushakov wrote:
| they also say
|
| > we always wanted to build a desktop app instead of a web app
|
| but the reality is complete opposite
| mumphster wrote:
| A web app cant take advantage of native desktop UI patterns
| (file dialogues, tray, system menus) and APIs (native file
| handling, win32 access, sockets, etc etc) like electron.
| Electron apps are desktop apps.
|
| People have been embedding webuis in crap forever and this is
| nothing new, except that chrome is a way better target to do
| so instead of old unupdated things like Qt webview and the
| like. See for example, steam which is just a web browser with
| some native ui around it.
| jll29 wrote:
| If responsiveness has been a goal, you have made choices that
| position you at the "slow" end of the scale (Web-based GUI on the
| desktop as client tech, Python on the server, ...).
|
| Right now, you can't trade equities, bonds, FX - and unless you
| can trade these core asset classes, your platform has to be
| classified "toy" - crypto-currencies just aren't that important,
| or not yet.
|
| Personally, I tried out your platform because you said you have
| "trusted news"; but you don't cover agency news, only untrusted
| Web sites (probably via un-cached RSS-feeds, so quite slow) - no
| need to pull the graphical logos for each site, that's not what
| traders want I would argue.
|
| Whatever you are building has to be better at _something_ than
| the existing vendors (UI responsiveness, trading execution,
| price, feature richness, news sources, ...) to survive. Think
| hard about your USP!
|
| It's hard to break into this (semi-oligopoly) space, as
| incumbents have spent decades innovating and/or acquiring and
| integrating data and functionality, but many would welcome a bit
| of fresh air.
| amargautam wrote:
| We are already building US equities support and scheduled to be
| released in Q1 2022. Yes the current news feed is not suitable
| for professional traders. As soon we get to offer US equities,
| we have plans to provide agency news.
|
| I am very curious to know as you tried the app, how do you see
| it as slow.
| jll29 wrote:
| So far, the slowest bit is the "loading..." of news. Each
| time you click on a tab on the left, you seem to re-load RSS
| feeds, which takes several seconds.
|
| I saw you are working on equities. So perhaps you just
| launched a little too early (before reaching utility for a
| typical trader).
| jll29 wrote:
| BTW, the app gives me "Uncaught JavaScript exception:
| TypeError: cannot read property webContents of null" on the
| Mac.
| dubcanada wrote:
| I don't personally agree with the "slow" as most trading
| applications are giant java behemoths with custom UI kits
| anyways. As long as you can have 8-12 charts all updating 30
| times a second or what ever update frequency you have and not
| crash a standard laptop the performance is fine.
|
| I do agree with the other part, there is nothing making your
| application "special". There is no special feature.
| na85 wrote:
| Once the JVM is running, though, it's quite fast. The same
| cannot be said for python.
| fakesheriff wrote:
| Amazing user interface. Seriously inspiring stuff.
|
| Like you, I've built some C++ analytics infrastructure that I
| would have _loved_ to have in an earlier corporate gig. But
| unlike you, I have no idea how to build a UI that people will
| want to use. I do everything at the terminal.
|
| Can you recommend the best way to get going with UI development?
| Like, what tools should I use, what should I read? Is it even
| possible to get started with ~1week investment in learning?
| amargautam wrote:
| Thank you for the kind words. Do you want to build a desktop or
| a web app? If desktop, despite all the electron hate here in
| the threads, I still say it's a quickest way to build something
| to test out. Good thing, you can use your C++ code in Node. If
| you do go with Electron, you will need to learn some
| JavaScript. I think 1 or 2 weeks of learning Javascript should
| be enough to build a PoC.
| ushakov wrote:
| seems like every "desktop app" launched on HN is electron
| amargautam wrote:
| Perhaps because it is easy to start with. We do realize the
| shortcomings. In our v3, we are rethinking this.
| ghosty141 wrote:
| It's just not a good business move to invest a huge amount lf
| time to create complex UI in the native frameworks if electron
| is way easier.
|
| Dont hate on electron, criticize the existing native solutions
| for making it way harder.
|
| Just as an example: in WPF it takes a significant amount of
| knowledge and work to fully customize a buttons appearance
| while its a basic task in CSS
| amargautam wrote:
| That is exactly the reason we have started with Electron. You
| got it right. Thank you.
| dubcanada wrote:
| A few pieces of feedback, just to add some context to my
| statements, I day trade stocks. I also trade crypto using
| quantower.
|
| 1. The features have silly drawing images that mean nothing. You
| write a bunch of stuff and don't even showcase the actual product
| with screenshots. You do in the help/documentation area, carry
| that over to the features page.
|
| 2. The video doesn't work.
|
| 3. None of the important information I look for in a application
| is there, take https://www.quantower.com for example, a
| competitor. Their website is full of screenshots of the actual
| application and details I need. For example it is not obvious if
| that is a list of all supported brokers or some? How fast is the
| order execution, is it instant is there a delay? Where does the
| data come from, the broker, a separate data feed like DX Feed? Do
| you support multiple connections (can I connect to coinbase and
| binance, etc)?
|
| But my biggest complaint is the application seems extremely
| simple, what benefit does using this over the other 50 different
| crypto desktop trading applications? Why would I pay you $39 over
| Quantower which has WAY more features and is free? Or Altrady
| which is $17? Or Coinigy which is free? Or TradingView? Or Medved
| Trader? Or or etc et etc?
|
| I am all for new applications to enter the trading space, but I
| personally would never even look twice at your application, or
| download a demo, and I am your target market.
| amargautam wrote:
| Thank you for your feedback. We will look into the website.
|
| Yes you can connect multiple exchanges and multiple accounts on
| those exchanges.
|
| If you have used Coinigy or Altrady, I request you to try our
| app. Happy to gather more feedback. It will help us improve.
| tedyoung wrote:
| Trying out new apps takes time, so it's really your job to
| show why I would want to take that time to properly evaluate
| your app. Asking potential users to "try our app" without
| answering the "why" isn't a good way to get people to, well,
| try your app.
| sidcool wrote:
| Does it work for any trading system across countries?
| amargautam wrote:
| It works with multiple cryptocurrency exchanges that you can
| connect using APIs. If the supported exchanges are available in
| your country, yes you can use it.
| tornato7 wrote:
| Any plans to support DEXs (Uniswap or Curve)?
| amargautam wrote:
| We do have plans for those but before that we are integrating a
| few of the regulated European exchanges.
| worik wrote:
| > we decided to go with Node.js, C++, React, Redux, and Electron.
|
| Why?
|
| Strikes me as a very odd choice for an application that is going
| to handle your money.
|
| Just because a lot of people make silly decisions (Node.js??? It
| is not, and never will be, secure. Broken design) is no reason to
| do it in your software.
|
| Good on you for getting into the reliably profitable part of the
| business though. Making money out of bigger fools.
|
| "In times of war the bad make war, the good make peace, the
| cunning make bullets"
| mumphster wrote:
| What's broken in node.js's design? Most new trading apps out
| there are also build on electron, or worse yet, some really
| gross java desktop ui thats even slower and eats up way more
| ram.
|
| All of what you said is fud and unsubstantiated.
| rvz wrote:
| How does this compare to TradingView?
| amargautam wrote:
| TradingView is a charting tool. We have TradingView in our app
| as well. But trading involves lot more than charting. Second
| difference is that it is a desktop app and the connectivity is
| peer to peer with the exchanges.
| dubcanada wrote:
| TradingView has ordering and integrates with most crypto
| exchanges. More crypto exchanges then your platform
| integrates with.
|
| Second, it's also cheaper, offers full scripting engine, and
| has a massive community.
| justgrepit wrote:
| TradingView has desktop app too.
| https://www.tradingview.com/desktop/
| scrollaway wrote:
| Congrats on the launch! Which trading API provider(s) did you
| choose and why?
| amargautam wrote:
| Thank you. We connect directly with cryptocurrency exchanges.
| We wrote our own connectors for their APIs. We do not use
| third-party data or API services.
| scrollaway wrote:
| Nice!
|
| You mention plans for trading US stocks. Those will most
| certainly require integrating with a broker API. Have you
| researched this, any contenders?
| amargautam wrote:
| Yes we are working with some to figure out the right fit.
| Haven't decided on any yet. Do you have any
| recommendations?
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