[HN Gopher] The Mighty Fallen: Argentina and the Great Depression
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The Mighty Fallen: Argentina and the Great Depression
Author : Thevet
Score : 27 points
Date : 2021-08-06 22:23 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.historytoday.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.historytoday.com)
| erikw wrote:
| I was hoping for an in depth historical treatment of Argentina's
| fall from the club of wealthy nations, but this article feels
| much more shallow. It's immediately clear that the author is
| neither an economist nor sociologist, and I would hazard to say
| has never lived in Argentina. While strictly true that the Macri
| administration's "neoliberal toolkit" failed, I feel like the
| article suggests that there is some inherent flaw in
| neoliberalism, whereas in reality Argentina is uniquely
| ungovernable. I'm reminded of the classic quote: "There are four
| types of nations- wealthy, poor, Japan, and Argentina". There is
| so much wealth in the county- you see these massive
| infrastructure projects everywhere: huge hydroelectric dams,
| well-constructed pristine highways in even the most remote parts
| of the country, beautiful parks... but for the most part, these
| projects are used to feed the corrupt state. The amount of
| corruption and bureaucracy is difficult to grasp as an outsider.
| I remember the first time I visited Chile by bus. At immigration
| before we got off the bus, they made an announcement that we
| should not try to bribe the Chilean police, as they wouldn't take
| kindly to it. They couched it in terms of the police being too
| proud to take a bribe, as though there were something abnormal
| about that. This illustrates the key sociological problem to me-
| beyond the normalization of bribery, there is a pervasive
| bureaucracy used for resource extraction by the political class,
| and I think it has too much momentum to end.
|
| To return briefly to the economic side and why I think a bit of
| neoliberalism would be a breath of fresh air, I'm reminded of
| when the government banned beef exports. They wanted to lower the
| price of beef, and thought they could do this by banning exports.
| I don't think it's uncharitable to say that any moron could
| predict how this would play out with a bit of thinking. Ranchers
| stopped raising unprofitable cattle, switched to soy (which the
| government then also raised export tariffs on) and other crops.
| Argentina is rife with this type of economic magical thinking,
| not just in the political elite, but in the popular classes they
| pander to. Argentina has been poor since the advent of Peronism,
| and yet the average person- perhaps like how a fish might not be
| aware of what "water" is- continues to support the same policies
| that continue not working 80 years later.
|
| In summary, I think that the author should take a more in depth
| look at the sociological and economic currents that make
| Argentina such a unique case of a poor country that by every
| right should be wealthy.
|
| Edit: I feel like the above comes off as too negative, so I want
| to add that Argentina is a great place to live, especially if you
| are a person of means, and not tied to the Argentine Peso. There
| are a lot of world class software developers in Buenos Aires, and
| apparently Argentina is one of the top spots to buy 0day
| exploits. The culture, food, weather (you can choose anywhere
| from arctic to tropical depending on your preferences) are all
| perfect for me- I just can't stand the bureaucracy and
| corruption.
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| > Argentina has been poor since the advent of Peronism, and yet
| the average person- perhaps like how a fish might not be aware
| of what "water" is- continues to support the same policies that
| continue not working 80 years later.
|
| Much has been written on this very topic. Compelling logic,
| written by very smart people. Yet, it has become impossible to
| talk about. Such intellectual waste.
| rayiner wrote:
| I'm from a much poorer country (Bangladesh) but I see the same
| thing. We squander a large fraction of what little we have to
| this sort of corruption.
| is_true wrote:
| The government banned beef export again a month ago. It didn't
| work before, but this time...this time it won't either
| mothsonasloth wrote:
| I think the article was being disingenuous juxtapositioning that
| the president had the sputnik vaccine, then mentioning they got
| coronavirus.
|
| I'm sure the decision to use sputnik or moderna, Johnson etc. is
| not deterministic in getting COVID-19
| mgh2 wrote:
| Two factors: Religion/culture and corruption
|
| https://m-g-h.medium.com/in-data-we-trust-2978dacc8c22
|
| PS: I grew up there
| telesilla wrote:
| I visited around 10 years ago and found it to be a truly
| interesting country, though indeed mired in recent controversy
| and historical bloodshed and all the political to-and-fro
| discussed in the article, but also full of delights and
| fascinating people and strong cultural elements (grilled meat!
| Late night dancing!), a clear cross between old Europe and the
| new world, more than any other perhaps. My anecdote on the
| finance system: the local street market had signs posted by the
| local government that mandated prices-in order to curb inflation.
| That was a first for me, seeing vendors unable to set their own
| prices.
| mc32 wrote:
| There's something sick about their economy. Quite a few
| economic dynamos emerged from the legacy of bloodshed and
| dictatorships. Argentina has natural resources. It has
| institutions. But perhaps it lacks vision and the will to carry
| out that vision.
| ericol wrote:
| We have a very crooked political caste. I'm giving this as an
| example; I don't want to get into a political discussion. But
| in the last government alone, we received around 50 billion
| dollars from the FMI also alone, that was entirely
| dilapidated.
| is_true wrote:
| Do you have a source on that? Most of the money was used to
| pay the debt from Kirchner's government
| ericol wrote:
| > local street market had signs posted by the local government
| that mandated prices-in order to curb inflation. That was a
| first for me, seeing vendors unable to set their own prices
|
| I'm sorry, could you be more specific about what it is what you
| saw?
|
| There are no "government mandated prices" in this country, at
| least not like you make it sound(Apologies upfront if I miss
| understood you).
|
| There is a government program where all big market have to
| carry products where their price is fixed by the government.
| The idea is that you can always have the chance to go for a
| cheap product if you are poor, but it's not for instance that
| all milk brands have to have the same price.
|
| And milk can get pretty expensive pretty fast in this country:
| It always come in 1 litre recipients, and the cheapest one (The
| one that is within the mentioned program) is right now at ~70
| pesos (Some 73 dollar cents at the official dollar price, 40
| cents at the current rate for the dollar in the back market...
| but foreigners can hardly get this price for their dollars).
|
| I don't know what the prices are in other countries, but I
| think tourists will find prices rather high compared to their
| countries once tourism starts again.
| telesilla wrote:
| Yes, it was an outdoor farmer type market in a suburb of
| Buenos Aires, there were signs saying for example, butter
| costs 10 pesos a kilo(or whatever, sorry I can't recall the
| values). Maybe I misunderstood but it seemed to be a notice
| that the consumer shouldn't pay higher than that price, to
| keep inflation controlled. It was not a tourist market at
| all, everything in espanol.
| eafer wrote:
| > And milk can get pretty expensive pretty fast in this
| country: It always come in 1 litre recipients, and the
| cheapest one (The one that is within the mentioned program)
| is right now at ~70 pesos (Some 73 dollar cents at the
| official dollar price, 40 cents at the current rate for the
| dollar in the back market... but foreigners can hardly get
| this price for their dollars).
|
| That's actually extremely cheap by international standards,
| if this source[0] is to be trusted. Of course it seems
| expensive for most argentinians because wages are also
| terribly low.
|
| [0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
| living/country_price_rankings...
| rayiner wrote:
| As someone who comes from a very poor country, I feel like
| academics don't do enough to help understand why some countries
| succeed and why some don't. They blame "colonialism" or some such
| thing, but that doesn't explain this. Argentina was rich in the
| early 20th century:
|
| > Something has gone awry in what was the most successful of all
| the 19th-century liberal republics in Spanish America. In the
| early 20th century, Argentina's per capita GDP ranked among the
| world's top ten, on a par with Australia and Canada and ahead of
| France and Italy.
|
| What explains the coups and political instability? If the GDP is
| the same, why is the government of Canada and Australia so much
| more stable than Argentina? This seems to be one of the biggest
| things holding back Latin America, but there seems to be no
| effort to understand what's causing it.
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| > I feel like academics don't do enough to help understand why
| some countries succeed and why some don't
|
| What have you read so far? Did you do any research? The field
| of philosophy and political science does not lack publications.
|
| I can recommend "The Rise and Decline of Nations" by Mancur
| Olson. Further authors which I still have to go through, but
| seem relevant: Theodore Dalrymple
| Rene Girard Roger Scruton James Burnham
| whoaisme wrote:
| LOl you're the guy being a dick about how in depth the field
| of fantasy novels is then your personal recommendation is
| Harry Potter. Why not become a snooty sommelier and recommend
| stella rosa while you're at it. Then you recommend writers
| you haven't read because get real if you're gonna actually
| read stuff before you talk about how much research there is
| hahaha
| gus_massa wrote:
| > _Speculators amass basic necessities and grocery stores were as
| empty if not emptier in December 2019 than any supermarkets in
| the UK at the height of the pandemic._
|
| I don't remember that.
| ericol wrote:
| Me neither.
| kragen wrote:
| Yeah, I don't remember supermarkets here in Argentina being
| particularly empty in December 02019. On the other hand, it's
| hardly unusual for supermarkets here to have a noticeable
| amount of empty shelf space, especially Chinese supermarkets
| off main streets on Sundays; maybe in the UK that's what they
| looked like at the height of the pandemic?
|
| I don't remember bars in Palermo being full of English-speakers
| at the time, either, just the occasional group.
|
| Overall, though, I feel like the article is mostly accurate.
| scythe wrote:
| >Argentina did not pledge allegiance to the US in the Second
| World War and was officially neutral.
|
| This is a _weird_ way to put it. The US entered WW2 after more
| than two years of fighting. Did Stalin "pledge allegiance to the
| US"?
| kragen wrote:
| Vice versa, if anything, since Stalin was already fighting the
| Germans.
| bishoprook2 wrote:
| wow, does that article not deliver on the title.
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