[HN Gopher] Going forward, Unity devs will need Unity Pro to pub...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Going forward, Unity devs will need Unity Pro to publish on
       consoles
        
       Author : q_andrew
       Score  : 93 points
       Date   : 2021-08-05 15:52 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (gamasutra.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (gamasutra.com)
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | spywaregorilla wrote:
       | Unity makes a lot of moronic decisions imo.
       | 
       | * You have to pay to remove the unity logo from your games. This
       | causes low quality games to proudly show the unity logo and well
       | funded games to hide it.
       | 
       | * Very few devs are likely to release on console while on the
       | free tier of unity pro but this has a daunting effect on the
       | aspirational newbie, I guarantee. Lots of people have this silly
       | habit of thinking about the monetary opportunity of their amazing
       | solo indie game that will definitely never happen, but it still
       | GETS THEM ON THE TOOL which is important
       | 
       | * Needless to say, breaking their own networked multiplayer setup
       | and not even having a working replacement.
       | 
       | The engine really is fine, but the business is poorly run, and I
       | feel that drives the trajectory of the engine downwards.
        
         | spywaregorilla wrote:
         | Oh and I forgot my personal favorite. Filling my harddrive with
         | TB of log messages saying the telemetry failed to phone home
         | due to no internet when left alive overnight.
        
         | q_andrew wrote:
         | To add to the list, Unity changed their policy on console
         | development 6 days ago, and didn't tell anyone or even give an
         | explanation (this article was written after a few developers
         | noticed it in the license by chance). Whether or not it was a
         | good choice is almost overshadowed by the lack of disclosure or
         | transparency.
        
           | rincebrain wrote:
           | I'm pretty confident you're referring to the license change
           | from the article and not an earlier license change, but June
           | 30th is no longer 6 days ago.
        
         | didntknowya wrote:
         | yes I used to pay for unity but if I were an aspiring dev
         | today, I'd jump right into the unreal ecosystem as their
         | freemium model makes much more sense to start in.
        
         | fxtentacle wrote:
         | I'd like to add the biggest issues from the point of view of a
         | small independent game studio:
         | 
         | * Open bugs from years ago
         | 
         | * Refusal to fix bugs in the LTR = long term support version.
         | They always try to weasel their way out by asking you to
         | upgrade to the latest beta, which nobody will do mid-
         | production.
         | 
         | * No source code access and no option to purchase it, because
         | they are above negotiating prices with small companies.
         | 
         | * Bug reports are forcibly kept secret. For example, try
         | searching for "Particle Rendering Errors & Flickering - Last
         | light color in unity_LightColor0[] multiplied by random small
         | number" which is a bug that affects 2018 LTR, 2019 LTR, and
         | 2020 LTR and is still unfixed. (It's ID 1242620)
         | 
         | As the game developer, you're then forced to work around bugs
         | in the Unity C++ core with pixel shaders and the stuff that
         | they expose to C#, which is horrible for readability and (of
         | course) very fragile.
         | 
         | Contrast that with UE where you have full source code and can
         | step through things in a debugger...
        
         | BoorishBears wrote:
         | The truth of the story is Unity just changed how _Xbox_ builds
         | work, and not much more.
         | 
         | Console manufacturers providing tools for development after you
         | join their dev programs is bog standard stuff. In fact only
         | needing a key is a huge step forward, back in the Wii-U days
         | Nintendo would provide the actual binary of Unity Pro with
         | changes baked in, not even a key.
         | 
         | If I had to guess Sony and Nintendo are paying some sort of fee
         | to get those Pro licenses they then give to devs for free, and
         | MS was relying on the fact that Unity didn't gate console
         | targets.
         | 
         | Now Unity is forcing MS to join the program, which really isn't
         | unreasonable to me. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's
         | a way to recoup the very real cost Unity incurs supporting
         | these targets to the benefit of the manufacturers.
        
         | im_down_w_otp wrote:
         | Seriously asking... what's the benefit of getting them on the
         | tool if the tool can't be monetized? What's the angle here for
         | Unity as a business model? Some kind of revenue sharing
         | arrangement or something for if/when a game ends up successful?
        
           | spywaregorilla wrote:
           | > Seriously asking... what's the benefit of getting them on
           | the tool if the tool can't be monetized? What's the angle
           | here for Unity as a business model? Some kind of revenue
           | sharing arrangement or something for if/when a game ends up
           | successful?
           | 
           | First to answer your question, luring in devs to the unity
           | ecosystem is very good for unity because it creates a supply
           | of unity devs who go on to create demand for the engine at
           | studios. People don't like to switch tooling. It's sticky,
           | like microsoft office.
           | 
           | But second, that's sort of my point. Unity is already fairly
           | heavily monetized. You must already buy this license if
           | you're making $200k or more on their engine.
           | 
           | But what if you're a solo dev who wants to publish something
           | fun, small, and non-lucrative? Or something you think could
           | be lucrative but is kind of a shot in the dark? $1,800 (per
           | year) is a hefty price tag to take that shot. It doesn't move
           | the needle on business revenue but it does scare away indies.
           | Others are saying this is to get the console vendors to pay
           | for it but honestly that sounds like its still adding a lot
           | of friction.
        
             | im_down_w_otp wrote:
             | That makes sense. Thanks for answering. I don't have much
             | familiarity with Unity as a tool or as a company/business
             | model, so I didn't realize they already had alternative
             | monetization methods.
        
           | asutekku wrote:
           | Unreal Engine does revenue sharing and the whole engine is
           | free to use for anyone wants to. IIRC until certain amount of
           | money Epic takes no cut from the sales. That's a million
           | times better than what Unity is doing.
        
             | spywaregorilla wrote:
             | Yeah it's only 5% on revenues above a million on a title by
             | title basis. Very generous terms and incredibly indie
             | friendly. Probably more expensive for large successes, but
             | imo much more preferable.
        
         | dathinab wrote:
         | > *Very few devs are likely to release on console while on the
         | free tier of unity pro but this has a daunting effect [..] this
         | silly habit of thinking about the monetary opportunity of [..]
         | 
         | I fully agree, the idea that my small irrelevant hobby game
         | might end up somewhat successful and I might be able to sell it
         | on console and be maybe able to live from and for it for ~1
         | year or so are quite tempting.
         | 
         | On the other hand the idea that even if my hobby game gets
         | successful I will most likely never be able to put it on
         | console is quite off putting.
        
           | nvoorhies wrote:
           | E
        
           | newsclues wrote:
           | If your hobby becomes successful can't you then upgrade to
           | pro and port to consoles?
        
             | dathinab wrote:
             | For a hobby came earning 1800 in profited is _a lot_.
             | 
             | Not even speaking about you having to put it up upfront and
             | every year (I'm not sure if it's every year you still
             | maintain or sell the game).
             | 
             | I mean typical prices for mini hobby games are 5-10 at most
             | 20, if we go with 10 it means you would need to have
             | already had 180 customers before publishing on a game
             | console.
             | 
             | And sure that might not sound like much, but we are
             | speaking about small hobby projects of often young people,
             | potentially worried about how to pay their student loans or
             | teen not yet earning money.
             | 
             | And sure in the sells aspects this doesn't matter for EA,
             | but it will make more young people use different things for
             | their first games.
             | 
             | Furthermore when it doesn't matter from a sells perspective
             | why increasing the burden? Why not just reducing the "less
             | expensive" limit from 200k revenue to 80k or so?
        
             | spywaregorilla wrote:
             | A lot of people will want to push to consoles to begin
             | with, not to PCs. It's still a good deal if you're
             | successful. But it's $1,800 lost if you're not. That's a
             | big number to some hopeful newbie.
        
         | SeriousM wrote:
         | Do they still charge for the dark theme?
        
           | q_andrew wrote:
           | Not anymore, thankfully.
        
       | socialist_coder wrote:
       | This is the least of Unity's problems.
       | 
       | Unity doesn't dogfood their own engine. Unity does not develop
       | any games themselves. This is completely unlike Unreal, who has
       | always released games using their own engine. Unity doesn't do
       | it, and it shows.
       | 
       | Unity has a handful of features that either barely work or only
       | work in some contrived prototype case. They still have 3
       | different rendering pipelines without clear direction on which
       | you should use.
       | 
       | They have this whole new game architecture (DOTS) but it seems
       | like you should not use it. It's just there to confuse you.
       | 
       | They have a new GUI coming soon? Maybe?
       | 
       | Mobile builds are a complete clusterfuck with all the native code
       | plugins you have to integrate. As soon as you get a few native
       | code plugins (which every serious mobile game does), it takes
       | several days of messing with your build pipeline to make things
       | build properly on iOS and Android. And then you have to do it all
       | over again every year to keep up with platform changes.
       | 
       | They've also released a ton of plugins and features for AAA games
       | and cinematics that are completely useless to indie devs and
       | mobile devs. I would love to know what their revenue split looks
       | like between mobile, AAA, indie, and everything else. From my
       | perspective, they haven't done much the past 3 years to make
       | mobile dev & indie dev better.
       | 
       | Still no good webGL export if you care at all about load times.
       | I'm not sure if they have just given up on this or what.
       | 
       | The Unity Editor also just has weird problems sometimes. It gets
       | exponentially worse if you have large projects too. This is why
       | Unity never sees these problems because they only work with small
       | prototypes. They have no "real" projects which can easily get
       | into the 50+ gigabytes range. At that size of a project, you
       | start to have more weird issues.
       | 
       | Unity is still (usually) the best choice for mobile and indie,
       | but man I wish they would just spend the time to make their own
       | mobile game, see the many pain points, and fix them.
       | 
       | I will say, they did create and release the Addressables system,
       | which is a big improvement for resource loading on mobile. Also
       | their acquisition of TextMeshPro and support of that plugin for
       | rendering text, super good. Their shader graph editor is still
       | WIP and tied into their rendering pipeline mess. Nested prefabs
       | are also a huge improvement.
       | 
       | If I was Unity, I would setup 2 internal game teams. One team
       | building PC & console games, another team building mobile games.
       | Build real games, release them on the app stores, and keep them
       | updated for 2 years. Who cares if they don't make any money, that
       | isn't the point. This is a realistic usage of the engine and it
       | would expose problems that Unity doesn't seem to know about.
        
         | q_andrew wrote:
         | These issues are definitely real and need to be fixed. However,
         | I do think that the URP/shadergraph pipeline has been unfairly
         | maligned -- I've gotten some great results with very few bugs
         | using HDRP as a solo dev (granted, the target platform is PC
         | and it's running on a newer non-preview release). I made this
         | game exclusively with shadergraph and HDRP deferred rendering
         | and it runs quite well -- https://youtu.be/Vwu7gTVgDzo
        
           | socialist_coder wrote:
           | That looks amazing! Well done.
        
             | q_andrew wrote:
             | Thanks! It's the first game I've made that will actually be
             | released, I'm excited to see people play it.
        
         | cpeterso wrote:
         | > This is completely unlike Unreal, who has always released
         | games using their own engine.
         | 
         | I wonder if the Unreal Engine team's testing includes
         | recompiling and retesting shipped Unreal games to make sure
         | engine updates don't break backwards compatibility.
        
           | boterock wrote:
           | That's an issue you don't have if you provide source code.
           | 
           | If a customer relies on bad architecture/undefined behaviour,
           | that shouldn't pull back all the other customers that want
           | their subscription materialize into engine improvements.
        
         | boterock wrote:
         | I would also add their animation system is crap. If you try
         | something like Animancer, you will never ever want to interface
         | to the AnimatorController stuff because is so badly designed.
         | 
         | Overall their business model of providing some kind of
         | foundation to be filled up with plugins is terrible. I don't
         | have an issue with plugins, but needing to rely on plugins for
         | the very basic things like input management, localization,
         | animation, source control... Just so they do less, and earn
         | more (because otherwise people would just wouldn't pay for
         | that, presumably?). That's a shitty way to run a software
         | company.
         | 
         | Only recently they have started to care, but I think it is too
         | late, and it will be hard to beat the momentum that Godot
         | already has. I would bet that in a couple years the tables will
         | turn and Unity will be juggling to keep their market share.
        
         | socialist_coder wrote:
         | I would also try to completely redesign how mobile builds work
         | in Unity. Instead of Unity creating a brand new xcode / android
         | studio project every build - it should be able to take an
         | existing xcode / android studio project and just add the Unity
         | build to it. That way, theres no more stupid post-process steps
         | that inject all your native code plugins into your xcode
         | project. This step is super fragile and constantly breaks. You
         | can keep your xcode project updated manually and the mobile
         | plugins would no longer need to develop their unity build
         | pipeline.
        
         | reitzensteinm wrote:
         | Their WebGL export template update broke the loading bar
         | (unityProgress callback returning 0% then 100%).
         | 
         | I got into an argument on the Unity forums with a maintainer
         | about whether this was a necessary feature. That was surreal,
         | and I think spoke volumes as to how it came to be broken in the
         | first place.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | drcode wrote:
         | I would add to this:
         | 
         | 1. Their package/plugin system sucks (last I tried it anyway).
         | It basically just seems to download a bunch of junk files for
         | every plugin without any intelligence, and if the package
         | updates you have a big mess on your hands, trying to combine
         | your app code with the newest plugin code.
         | 
         | 2. You are pretty much forced to use C#, even though the
         | company has more money than god and could easily fund grants to
         | allow for great variety of language options. By siloing
         | themselves within the C# ecosystem, they will likely never have
         | an ecosystem of third party development tools that could
         | improve the lives of their users.
        
           | mattnewport wrote:
           | The old package system definitely sucks. The new system has
           | promise but until it works for asset store assets it's a bit
           | limited.
           | 
           | You can actually use F# quite well in Unity, I've done it,
           | you just need to develop in a separate visual studio
           | solution. Debugging is a bit of an issue too but it is a
           | reasonable experience overall.
           | 
           | You can also develop native plugins and doing so with C or
           | C++ for certain things isn't uncommon. In this case you
           | mostly want to avoid interacting with Unity APIs though and
           | just write standalone code that Unity code calls into.
           | 
           | There's lots to complain about with Unity but it's not all
           | bad.
        
             | Arwill wrote:
             | Custom asset import is also much better than for Unreal,
             | even making an asset exporter is easy.
             | 
             | If for example the target is to re-make an old game in a
             | modern engine, Unity is the better choice.
        
           | nodejs_rulez_1 wrote:
           | They could have picked Python or something even worse like
           | C++. At least they back-tracked from the absolute worst
           | option - JavaScript.
        
           | socialist_coder wrote:
           | Agreed about packages - you can no longer make custom updates
           | to them to them either if they are installed via the package
           | manager. They didn't think through their package manager
           | before rolling it out. And now that it's out, it's going to
           | be super hard to change it.
        
             | andybak wrote:
             | Yes you can. Just copy the files into the Packages
             | directory and edit at will.
        
               | mattnewport wrote:
               | Yeah, we just did this this week to work around a bug in
               | the URP package, it does work.
        
         | sombremesa wrote:
         | > If I was Unity, I would setup 2 internal game teams. One team
         | building PC & console games, another team building mobile
         | games. Build real games, release them on the app stores, and
         | keep them updated for 2 years. Who cares if they don't make any
         | money, that isn't the point. This is a realistic usage of the
         | engine and it would expose problems that Unity doesn't seem to
         | know about.
         | 
         | The reason Unity doesn't do this is pretty simple, and it's the
         | same reason people get really angry when Amazon begins to
         | manufacture high margin products themselves and pushing other
         | sellers out of the game.
         | 
         | Epic has no qualms with such things, and it seems like there's
         | no end to what they can get away with, so why wouldn't they?
        
           | simion314 wrote:
           | >The reason Unity doesn't do this is pretty simple, and it's
           | the same reason people get really angry when Amazon begins to
           | manufacture high margin products themselves and pushing other
           | sellers out of the game.
           | 
           | I think you do not understand why people are angry with
           | Amazon. Say there is a dude that discovered that he can make
           | money if he sells coffee cups with black cats painted on
           | them, Amazon then runs an SQL query or run some ML and find
           | all profitable products including the coffee cups and they
           | then find where the dude buys the cups , negociate a better
           | deal with the manufacturer, make tons of money and the dude
           | gets frustrated.
           | 
           | Unity making 2 games would not upset the developers, they
           | could make the game "open" for all customers so anyone can
           | learn from them.
        
             | sombremesa wrote:
             | > Unity making 2 games would not upset the developers
             | 
             | See Epic v. Apple.
             | 
             | Making games is a huge liability if you're a game engine.
             | Making a game _store_ even more so.
             | 
             | Unity has made plenty of "demos" as you're suggesting.
        
               | initplus wrote:
               | Why is it a liability? It's how every other commercially
               | licensed engine was built in the past. Unity is actually
               | unusual in that respect.
               | 
               | See id, valve, unreal, crytek.
        
               | sombremesa wrote:
               | Because you're competing with the businesses who decide
               | your fate as an engine. If you're Valve, you want games
               | to be on Steam - and you'll push for that when games use
               | your engine, even if it isn't explicitly stated or even
               | intentional. This doesn't make Sony and Microsoft happy,
               | obviously. You might argue that the platforms are
               | different, but that continues to become more and more
               | irrelevant as it becomes easier to release the same game
               | on many platforms and crossplay becomes more commonplace.
               | 
               | As a result, these marketplaces will try and favor some
               | other engine, such as Unity.
               | 
               | I think it's tough for the average techie on here to
               | really grasp the nuances of business (mostly due to lack
               | of direct XP), so I'm not going to belabor the point.
        
               | socialist_coder wrote:
               | In theory you have a valid point, but in practice it just
               | hasn't been an issue. See the previous commenter who
               | pointed out that _every_ engine company, with the
               | exception of Unity, has always released games on their
               | own engine. I have literally never seen any complaints
               | about that.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | initplus wrote:
               | I understand that there is potential a conflict of
               | interest involved... but Unity's customers also want an
               | improved product. It's a competitive disadvantage
               | compared to unreal that they don't dogfood their own
               | product.
               | 
               | Direct product flaws in Unity are more likely to push
               | customers away to a competitor compared to nebulous
               | business relations conflicts.
        
       | pjmlp wrote:
       | Sony, Nintendo, Google and Microsoft, give tier 1 preference to
       | Unity anyway, so this will hardly matter for those that actually
       | get to be allowed to rent a devkit.
       | 
       | Not everyone that wants to develop for consoles gets the
       | privilege to do so anyway, only when the game manages to win the
       | hearts of publishers, and the company has a sound financial
       | history to ensure being able to deliver the game.
        
       | 41209 wrote:
       | This is a pretty moot point.
       | 
       | Realistically no one can develop for a console without having a
       | significant amount of funding.
       | 
       | Microsoft had an indie storefront a while ago , but it's
       | essentially gone. I wasted hours , and 25$ trying to get my Unity
       | game to build for Xbox S. The tools Microsoft has for hobby devs
       | are just completely broken.
       | 
       | Looking on the bright side with Steamdeck we might see even more
       | great handheld PC games.
       | 
       | I wish Godot was anywhere near Unity, but it's not. UDK melts my
       | computer and I've never been able to do anything with it.
        
       | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
       | 1800/person/seat is a pretty minimal cost, at least in the US.
       | Even if you're paying your people 40k per year, it's a 5%-ish
       | increase in costs, at most. Probably much less once you factor
       | everything else in.
       | 
       | I'd be interested to know how many non-hobbyist devs are
       | seriously affected by this.
        
         | everyone wrote:
         | You only need one seat I think also. Just for when you're
         | building to console (At least that's the way it used to be when
         | you could only build to certain platforms on pro) Eg. If I was
         | doing a build I'd just use the seat and if my colleague had it
         | i'd ask him to relinquish it.)
        
           | qwytw wrote:
           | The license doesn't allow doing that, you can't really mix
           | free and pro on the same project (also if you work with
           | multiple people probably the company has > 100k revenue). Of
           | course Unity doesn't really have any good way to enforce
           | this...
        
         | GekkePrutser wrote:
         | Not everywhere pays their people as well as the US :). For a
         | lot of countries with many Devs this is a fortune
        
         | anigbrowl wrote:
         | As a ps3 owner who was considering that it might be fun to make
         | a simple game or utility it's a total non-starter.
         | 
         | Of course I can make a game for free on my desktop, laptop or
         | phone and have many options available. But I was literally just
         | last night thinking about making something for use with a
         | controller on the sofa and bookmarked Unity for further
         | consideration. I'd rather use Godot but I don't think that
         | works with consoles at all.
         | 
         | It sounds like this still works for older versions of Unity? I
         | am not imagining anything elaborate/commercial. The ps3 is not
         | the best computer (or even console) I own, but it's one I like
         | and use daily, even if just for a few minutes to play an old
         | game or watch streaming video.
         | 
         | Edit: after looking around Unity's website it seems they're
         | just not catering to hobbyists at all any more which I guess
         | makes sense from their business perspective. Oh well.
        
           | andrewmcwatters wrote:
           | Yes, the price is very affordable for even small independent
           | studios knowing that engine licensing costs are one of your
           | biggest non-labor expenses, but the price is also set high
           | enough that an individual will easily have it out of budget.
           | 
           | Only hardware is marginally more expensive, and only
           | sometimes.
           | 
           | I find their pricing very well calibrated.
        
           | dmytroi wrote:
           | Unity is completely irrelevant here, your first question
           | should be "Will Sony give me the software and the hardware to
           | make a PS3 game/software?" and answer in 2021 will most
           | likely be hard no because PS3 is so old at this point
           | (remember that retail console is not a devkit nor a testkit).
           | Which only leaves homebrew toolchains to explore, and they
           | are not supported by any of big engines today.
        
             | anigbrowl wrote:
             | I already knew the answer to that, but up until recently
             | the free/cheap tier Unity let you output for ps3.
        
               | andybak wrote:
               | But how do you install on the actual hardware without an
               | official dev kit? If you're just previewing on PC then
               | nothing has changed.
        
               | bsagdiyev wrote:
               | The PS3 security is completely broken at this point so
               | that's a moot point. You don't need a dev kit.
        
               | BoorishBears wrote:
               | I don't think this answers the question.
               | 
               | Is there actually a guide showing anyone having been able
               | to click build in a recent version of Unity and run the
               | output on a PS3?
               | 
               | Because I'd be shocked if that actually worked, back in
               | the PS3 days I'm pretty sure Sony was shipping modified
               | builds of Unity just like Nintendo
        
           | anigbrowl wrote:
           | Looks like the dream isnot completely dead:
           | https://wololo.net/2019/09/24/a-look-at-udk-ultimate-a-
           | modif...
           | 
           | (Also, talk about putting the whole story in the URL...)
        
         | xyzzy_plugh wrote:
         | Basically zero, but it's definitely awful marketing to devs who
         | imagine themselves successful.
         | 
         | Unity sure is encouraging folks to move to Unreal or Godot
         | lately.
         | 
         | If you're porting to consoles and making at least 100k/yr then
         | this is a drop in the bucket.
        
         | tomc1985 wrote:
         | Thats a ton of money for something an indie dev won't even own
         | or be able to possess once the subscription is up.
         | 
         | Indie dev is super saturated. It's hard to make money without a
         | ton of promo and virality.
         | 
         | Yet another predatory subscription licensing model. Thank god
         | Unreal Engine is open-source.
        
           | spywaregorilla wrote:
           | UE is source available but it is not open source. You owe
           | royalties if your game makes over a million. It's a nice
           | model though.
        
           | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
           | Seems like these types of devs go to PC first anyway, since
           | the cost of getting started there is so much less than
           | consoles. I doubt anyone in the industry will be too broken
           | up about it.
        
         | ngold wrote:
         | I do some mobile unity game development. Personally I would
         | expect it to cost more to get games on console.
        
       | GekkePrutser wrote:
       | Eek.. will this apply to Oculus Quest too? That's also kinda a
       | closed platform
        
         | binarynate wrote:
         | No, Oculus Quest uses Unity's Android player and doesn't
         | require a specialized console player.
        
       | Robotbeat wrote:
       | I was about to use Unity for a project (for a larger
       | organization) and had considered biting the bullet and buying
       | Unity Pro... but I didn't want to have my work turn to ash as
       | soon as my side project ran out of funding and the license
       | expired. Permanent licenses that you have to buy are one thing,
       | but... Being forced into buying a subscription service (& legally
       | being prevented from using the "community" version) just makes me
       | way too hesitant to want to use the Unity environment. Especially
       | for side projects (and if you can't use it for side projects, you
       | will be less likely to use it for main projects). If the project
       | has a delay (pandemics happen, could have a medical problem,
       | etc), then I risk running out of money for subscription.
       | 
       | If it was just paying for maintenance, or for memory limitations,
       | CPU count, or compilation speed, that's one thing. But if all
       | your work turns to ash if you don't pay the fee... that's just
       | not an ecosystem I want to invest time and money in.
        
         | fxtentacle wrote:
         | That reasoning is precisely why we switched form Autodesk 3ds
         | max to Houdini. And then we were positively surprised by its
         | power and have never looked back.
        
       | numbsafari wrote:
       | Interesting point of comparison to, say, iOS development, which
       | costs $99/yr, full stop, not per-seat.
        
         | chrisBob wrote:
         | That is obviously not a fair comparison. Apple's developer fee
         | is there to create a little bit of a filter and to help
         | reinforce the legal agreement for getting access to pre-release
         | stuff, and running code on your own hardware. The fee probably
         | doesn't even cover the overhead on the program. Apple makes
         | their money through the App Store and selling hardware. Unity
         | is getting all of their money from licensing their software.
        
           | xyzzy_plugh wrote:
           | It doesn't really do any of those things, though. It's an
           | arbitrary fee. Look at Google's Play Store fee by comparison.
           | 
           | While I agree it's not a fair comparison, the Unity fee at
           | least provides substantially more value than Apple's, like
           | covering the publishing process for multiple console
           | platforms, which is almost always relatively expensive.
        
             | qwytw wrote:
             | Google doesn't really do a manual review of every submitted
             | app (I don't know how many minutes/hours they spend on a
             | single submission but I guess the cost of this alone might
             | add up to more than $100 if the account is used to submit a
             | lot of apps/new versions per year)
        
         | Macha wrote:
         | $99/yr + 15% of first $1,000,000 + 30% of any revenue above
         | that
        
           | munk-a wrote:
           | Which, just to do the math out - means that Apple is
           | guaranteed to be cheaper as long as you make less than 12k.
           | That math, of course, ignores platform hosting fees (i.e.
           | Steam/EGS/GoG will take a chunk of profits as well on PC -
           | and I have no idea what console fees are like).
           | 
           | Assuming you're not doing it as a hobby the flat cost is far
           | more economical unless you release a lemon in which case the
           | scaling cost does minimize the losses at least.
        
             | kipchak wrote:
             | >and I have no idea what console fees are like
             | 
             | According to Apple's Powerpoint in Epic v Fortnite [1] 30%
             | is more or less standard, for consoles as well as on PC.
             | Microsoft was supposedly also going to 88/12 though that
             | seems like it might have been dropped.
             | 
             | 1. https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/3/22417725/apple-vs-
             | epic-ful... (slide 15)
        
         | josephcsible wrote:
         | Which platform is Unity Pro the only way to ship apps for?
        
       | traspler wrote:
       | I'm not a game dev but we used it for an AR feature where I
       | worked. We only needed 2 seats, so not a big customer. There have
       | been some stupid interactions with Unity:
       | 
       | - Pestering us for weeks about urgently needing to arrange a call
       | with us and repeatedly refusing to tell us what it is about over
       | Email, turns out one of devs didn't activate his seat and another
       | user created an account with his work email an they thought we
       | were abusing the license.
       | 
       | - Back then they offered build server licenses but there was
       | nearly nothing in the docs about it, only ,,call us". So we did
       | and we had to arrange a call with one of their partners advising
       | us on our use use (dynamically generating assets over an API).
       | All of this boiled down to: 5 Instance license for the price of a
       | normal seat.
       | 
       | Why all of this required hours of my and my co-workers time in
       | calls is beyond me. All if this could have been done with like 4
       | mails max.
       | 
       | It's not only Unity's issue. I can't even create an AWS account
       | anymore without someone calling me to talk about my ,,use-cases".
       | This insistence on personal calls and account managers is such a
       | drag. Just feature your contact points prominently on your page
       | and explain your offer publicly. I'd rather have someone
       | competent answer my mails than talk to someone who is just going
       | to schedule another 3 calls because they are only sales people.
        
       | carlosrg wrote:
       | Does this applies to UWP games (the ones you can run on Xbox with
       | the Creators Program)? I was considering learning and doing some
       | hobbyist games with Unity and Xbox.
        
       | vincentpants wrote:
       | Sounds like this is specifically for the switch. Which I'm
       | finding to be a great platform for indie devs IMO.
        
       | thrower123 wrote:
       | I really don't understand why Microsoft hasn't bought Unity
        
       | halo wrote:
       | This feels attempted shakedown of the console manufacturers to
       | get them to pay for Unity for their licensees. Looks like Sony
       | and Nintendo have coughed up while Microsoft have not. Not sure I
       | can blame Microsoft for not wanting to pay.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | literallyaduck wrote:
       | When you hitch your wagon to someone else's horse you can't get
       | mad when it goes in a direction you don't like.
        
         | bilbo0s wrote:
         | Well, you _can_ get mad, but your only real recourse is to
         | unhitch your wagon. Most unity users won 't do that, they don't
         | have the resources or ability to make their own engines, and
         | many are not even able to effectively use the reasonable
         | competing engines like Unreal.
         | 
         | Unity users are pretty much a captive market at this point.
         | Really good business for Unity, probably not so good a
         | situation for Unity users long term.
        
         | nathanvanfleet wrote:
         | You just have to write your own engine nowadays. Yup. Maybe
         | even make your own console. But don't write in someone else's
         | language. This is the "deserved to be shot" argument of things.
         | You just aren't allowed to complain somehow? Why not?
        
           | DaiPlusPlus wrote:
           | > But don't write in someone else's language. This is the
           | "deserved to be shot" argument of things.
           | 
           | Amen.
           | 
           | Remember all those closed and proprietary "4GL" programming
           | languages throughout the 1990s? And all the business software
           | titles built using them? All gone now.
           | 
           | History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes.
        
         | TigeriusKirk wrote:
         | Sure you can.
        
           | droopyEyelids wrote:
           | The other day I got angry at my dog food bowl when I kicked
           | it in the dark-- and I'm the one who left it in the wrong
           | place!
        
             | teekert wrote:
             | I'm calling the cops.
        
       | theknocker wrote:
       | Cool, unreal 5 is shaping up great.
        
       | animanoir wrote:
       | Great publicity for Godot which i believe will get as heavy and
       | important as Blender.
        
         | p1necone wrote:
         | Why do you think this will give Godot more attention and not
         | Unreal?
        
           | seph-reed wrote:
           | Especially given the tech demos coming out for the next
           | unreal. I forget the name of the system they're using for
           | lighting or texture detail... but it's pretty friggin
           | impressive.
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | You still need to pay for a devkit even with Godot, and be on
         | good terms with Sony, Nintendo, Google and Microsoft, which
         | give tier 1 preference to Unity.
        
           | everyone wrote:
           | Unity is the only 3rd party engine that can build to Nintendo
           | switch (At least it was quite recently, not sure if its still
           | the case)
        
             | boterock wrote:
             | UE4 has been able to export to switch for a long time
             | (Snake Pass notably released on switch, before any other
             | console, 4 years ago) For Godot, there are companies that
             | do the porting (presumably they developed their own
             | interfacing layer), these services seem to be not very
             | expensive, and one of the Godot founders runs one of these
             | companies IIRC.
        
             | CraneWorm wrote:
             | solar2d is on the way to achieve this goal too
        
             | vivty wrote:
             | Yoshi's Crafted World which appeared on March 29, 2019 was
             | built using the UE4
             | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshi%27s_Crafted_World).
        
           | djmips wrote:
           | And support isn't free. Unity must be paying Sony, Nintendo,
           | Microsoft to give support on console. So maybe Unity just
           | decided to pass on the cost to the developer a bit and also
           | filter out a bunch of newbs that drive the cost higher.
        
             | qwytw wrote:
             | At least in the past Microsoft and Nintendo (not sure about
             | Sony) used to actually pay Unity to implement/maintain
             | support for their consoles. IIRC, when you had to buy
             | licenses for each platform separately, developers who had
             | the Nintendo SDK used to get the engine support for free
             | (can't remember if they had to pay for the editor license
             | themselves).
        
               | BoorishBears wrote:
               | Nintendo used to provide a Pro build of the latest Unity
               | that didn't rely on your existing licenses in any way to
               | function.
               | 
               | IIRC you could even use it to make a release PC game
               | builds, but I'm sure Unity could figure out what you were
               | doing if you actually shipped with it as a workaround for
               | buying your own license.
        
         | Thaxll wrote:
         | Godot is a toy engine compared to Unity, for consoles it's not
         | even a dicussion.
        
           | boterock wrote:
           | Having the source code available is much better as an
           | investment. Unity support (forums, answers, whatever) is a
           | joke.
           | 
           | It is very sad that whatever gamedev question you have, if
           | you search in google and add "Unity" the answers quality
           | degrades a lot.
        
         | jbluepolarbear wrote:
         | I want to like Godot, I just dislike too many of the design
         | choices. I don't like the signal pattern at all. GDScript is
         | fine for small games. C# integration is an afterthought and
         | shows with the rough api; especially working with signals.
        
         | NonContro wrote:
         | "Godot does not officially support consoles (save for XBox One
         | via UWP) currently.
         | 
         | The reasons for this are:
         | 
         | To develop for consoles, one must be licensed as a company.
         | Godot, as an open source project, does not have such a legal
         | figure.
         | 
         | Console SDKs are secret, and protected by non-disclosure
         | agreements. Even if we could get access to them, we could not
         | publish the code as open-source.
         | 
         | Consoles require specialized hardware to develop for, so
         | regular individuals can't create games for them anyway."
         | 
         | Copied from:
         | https://docs.godotengine.org/en/3.0/tutorials/platform/conso...
        
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