[HN Gopher] Giraffes are as socially complex as elephants
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Giraffes are as socially complex as elephants
Author : Tomte
Score : 204 points
Date : 2021-08-05 15:00 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (edition.cnn.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (edition.cnn.com)
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| From the actual article: "Until 2000, giraffe were believed to
| have no social structure (Innis 1958, Foster & Dagg 1972, Dagg &
| Foster 1976, Leuthold 1979), largely because of the daily
| fluidity in their group composition (Foster & Dagg 1972, Pratt &
| Anderson 1982, Pellew 1984a, Pratt & Anderson 1985)."
|
| That was quite interesting reasoning because applying that to
| humans would seem silly. A fair number of people when observed by
| a distant third party, such as bachelor salesmen, solo travel
| bloggers, single real estate agents, etc., have little to no
| social structure because of the daily fluidity in their group
| composition.
|
| For the giraffe researchers to have actually believed that seems
| like an instance of anti-anthropomorphism, that another mammal in
| this case must operate in totally alien ways.
| eloff wrote:
| This is surprising, because elephants have huge brains and
| giraffes have tiny brains. Size isn't everything apparently. I
| still think there's no question that elephants are more
| intelligent.
| bussierem wrote:
| Neanderthals had bigger craniums than homo sapiens (and thus
| bigger brains), so it does indeed seem like size isn't the
| biggest factor. Granted, that size difference is much smaller
| than elephant vs giraffe haha.
| dstick wrote:
| As the old ice-age saying goes: it's not the size, but what
| you do with it ;-)
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| I mean most anthropologists now believe that Neanderthals
| were at least as intelligent as homo sapiens, and most of us
| do have some Neanderthal genes...
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| But not any related to intelligence? Its got do to with
| depression, addiction, stuff like that?
|
| You'd think we'd have their 'brain genes' if they were any
| better.
| actuator wrote:
| Why is depression not related to intelligence?
| tshaddox wrote:
| "Intelligence" isn't synonymous with "evolutionary
| fitness." There are plenty of reasons why the genes of a
| more intelligent species might have had less reproductive
| success than the genes of a less intelligent species.
| kdmoyers wrote:
| Indeed, I think Steven Jay Gould said that the jury is
| still out on whether intelligence has proved a successful
| trait for humans, given that we have been around for
| barely eye blink on evolutionary time scales.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| Given that we know next to nothing about intelligence at
| this level, no one can say that some gene doesn't have
| any effect on intelligence, especially if it has any kind
| of effect on the brain.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| IIRC, the vast majority of Neanderthal genes that have
| persisted in to Modern human populations relate to immune
| system function, but I haven't read anything about
| depression or addiction-related genes being in that set.
| Is this a new discovery, or have I just missed it?
| caddemon wrote:
| Many, many genes can contribute in some (usually very
| small) way to depression/addiction/other psychiatric
| disorders, and a single gene can contribute risk to a
| variety of disorders. So it's not as clear cut of a thing
| to identify as whether a gene is involved in the immune
| system. In fact immune system genes have come up towards
| the top of genome wide association studies for conditions
| like Schizophrenia. So it doesn't even have a clean
| relationship with "genes expressed in the brain".
|
| All that is just to say that there is evidence that some
| Neanderthal mutations are linked to depression risk, but
| I wouldn't go so far as to characterize any of the
| involved genes as depression-related. Maybe that's just
| semantics though.
|
| More specifically here is a relevant snippet from a study
| summary [1]: "These analyses supported links to traits
| such as mood disorders, depression, obesity and different
| types of keratosis. The most significant associations
| were for mood disorders and depression, for which
| Neanderthal SNPs can explain up to ~1% of the risk."
|
| IIRC there was also a (less strong) association with
| nicotine addiction. Not sure about addiction more
| generally.
|
| [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2016.26
| Baeocystin wrote:
| Thank you!
| krisoft wrote:
| I see that your unstated but implied stance is that
| Neanderthals were less inteligent than homo sapiens. Do we
| know that? How do we know that?
| failwhaleshark wrote:
| Honestly, I would wager the critical attribute would likely
| have been that Neanderthals were more naive than h. s.
| sapiens. The specific inability to anticipate and mitigate
| deception would put them at continual disadvantages in
| mating, pair bonding, warfare, and resource
| sharing/acquisition.
| buu700 wrote:
| What I remember being taught in school is that Neanderthals
| were more intelligent than Cro-Magnons in many ways, but
| were ultimately less successful (evolutionarily speaking)
| because they were less social.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| By their art, their technology, the environments they could
| live in, their slow rate of adaptation to change. On and
| on.
| jyscao wrote:
| > their slow rate of adaptation to change
|
| This particular failing of Neanderthals resulted more
| from their extremely small effective population size,
| i.e. spiralling inbreeding, which eventually lead to
| total population collapse.
| robbedpeter wrote:
| There's not a lot of evidence to support that, though
| there is some. They could have been wiped out by disease,
| as opposed to any superior intelligence on the part of us
| sapiens.
| mellavora wrote:
| Interestingly enough, homo sapiens was also really slow
| to adopt to change for a very very long time. Basic
| toolkit was unchanged for something like 1M years.
|
| Then cam the Tonga event, homo sapiens population is
| reduced to less than a thousand individuals (perhaps much
| less), and suddenly we got creative.
|
| Innovation wasn't a thing before that. It has been
| everything since.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| I was under the impression that the evidence for the
| Tonga event being the driver of a human bottleneck has
| weakened in recent years. Is that incorrect?
| canadianfella wrote:
| What is the Tonga event?
| crazygringo wrote:
| But isn't all that essentially cultural knowledge?
|
| If you compare the art and technology of Homo sapiens
| 50,000 years ago vs 50 years ago... it's clear that
| 50,000 years ago gives no inkling of Homo sapiens'
| intelligence.
|
| So how could we possibly infer that Neanderthals were
| less intelligent? How could we possibly separate their
| intelligence from their state of cultural and technology
| evolution?
|
| Edit: indeed, a quick Google search reveals that the idea
| that Neanderthals were less intelligent than humans has
| no real evidence, that it's now considered to be an
| outdated/discredited view. So wherever you seem to be
| getting your facts and conclusions from, appears to be
| wrong.
| eloff wrote:
| Not necessarily wrong, but there isn't much evidence
| either way.
| darkerside wrote:
| I've read that Neanderthals were actually more
| intelligent, but that they were less social than Sapiens.
| Sapiens ganged up on the more solitary Neanderthals and
| overwhelmed them through violence or breeding.
| lancesells wrote:
| I believe octopi have small brains and from and according to
| research are fairly intelligent creatures.
|
| My guess is we've been underestimating the intelligence of most
| animals.
| staplers wrote:
| Brain folding (not size) is thought to be associated with
| more efficient cognition.
| robbedpeter wrote:
| Cortical layers seem to play a significant factor -
| wrinkles affect the surface area of the cortex, but layers
| seem to dictate the level of abstraction a species can
| comprehend - it's one of the biggest differences between
| reptiles, mammals, birds, and amphibians. While only
| mammals have a cortex, in other species, like birds, there
| are layered structures that can approximate cortical
| function. Animals that lack a layered cortex or analogous
| feature, or that have fewer layers in the structure, are
| demonstrably less intelligent. Birds have an advanced
| pallum, which is what gives them the edge over reptiles.
|
| The last 4-5 years have been wonderful for neural biology.
| __s wrote:
| Same with "bird brain" as an insult, meanwhile corvid's
| display quite a bit of intelligence
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| I've always wondered if the corvids notice how bird-brained
| all the other birds are.
| the_af wrote:
| It depends on the bird though, doesn't it?
|
| I seem to remember (from one of Konrad Lorenz's books
| maybe?) that while corvids are extremely smart, some other
| birds are pretty dumb by human standards... I think some
| raptors, like eagles and hawks, are very simple-minded. It
| struck me reading this as a kid because I thought eagles
| were majestic, how come they aren't also smart? Disclaimer:
| this may very well be outdated scientific understanding of
| raptors.
| LeegleechN wrote:
| My understanding is that octopus limbs are semi-autonomous,
| whereas giraffe legs aren't doing any more decision-making
| than they are for people or cats.
|
| Which is not to say that I disagree that most people
| underestimate animal intelligence.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| All cephalopods lack myelination in their neural toolkit.
| What this means is that signal propagation between neurons
| is between 10-100x slower than, say, a mammal, and it makes
| signal integration over distance a hard problem.
|
| That evolution has found a way to achieve high relative
| intelligence against such a strong constraint is endlessly
| fascinating!
| nicoburns wrote:
| Bees are also surprisingly intelligent, and have absolutely
| tiny brains.
| minikites wrote:
| Cephalopods are quite intelligent too, there's plenty of
| intelligence in non-mammals.
| mft_ wrote:
| ...and crows are one of the smartest of all, yet have
| relatively tiny brains.
| amelius wrote:
| Reminds me of:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26344650
| bsanr wrote:
| There is a commonly-held - though contentious, if not outright
| fallacious - notion that environmental conditions in Europe
| helped to shape complex society there. On that same token,
| between African primates, elephants, and giraffes, one has to
| wonder if there's something about the African forests and
| savannah that encouraged the development of complex social
| arrangements (and the intelligence involved in maintaining them).
| andyxor wrote:
| geraffes are so dumb
| https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/8aqjh/awww_this_is_ju...
| technothrasher wrote:
| While I was visiting Botswana, I observed a group of young
| giraffes clearly playing tag with each other. After that, I had
| no doubt they're pretty socially intelligent creatures.
| evmar wrote:
| If you're in the Bay Area and interested in an up close encounter
| with a giraffe, I recommend https://www.safariwest.com/ .
|
| (Disclaimer: no affiliation, I just enjoyed my visits there. I
| also have done no research into whether the animals are
| mistreated or anything.)
| caddemon wrote:
| This looks interesting, hadn't heard of it before - thanks!
|
| Also in the Bay Area, I was able to feed a giraffe at the San
| Francisco Zoo, which was super exciting! Their tongues are
| really impressive, would recommend feeding a giraffe at some
| point.
|
| It was a few years ago, but at least back then they had
| specific times listed online when you could watch the giraffes
| get fed. The key was to show up at a low traffic time to get a
| chance to interact.
| skohan wrote:
| This brings me back to the time I was in Kenya: seeing Giraffes
| in the wild was one of the most enchanting experiences I have had
| in nature.
|
| I was walking in one of the national parks, and we happened upon
| a young one in a clearing. When we got a little closer, the rest
| of the group emerged, their necks rising above the trees in front
| of us. The whole group galloped past us, with a motion almost
| like they were in slow motion or underwater with the way they
| float on top of their long limbs.
|
| It was really different from seeing them standing in a zoo.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > in a zoo
|
| I saw one at (I think) Disney Animal Kingdom. It seemed to be
| curious because it peeked into the vehicle. I was absolutely
| astonished at how huge the head was. They look so tiny up in
| the air. It was like seeing a traffic light at eye level for
| the first time.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > I was absolutely astonished at how huge the head was. They
| look so tiny up in the air.
|
| A more accessible example of this effect is that your foot,
| heel to toe, is about the same length as your forearm, elbow
| to wrist.
|
| People have real trouble believing this because your foot is
| always farther away than your arm is.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| Who else just raised their foot to their forearm to
| compare? I can now verify that you are correct.
| valec wrote:
| ...or to look at your dick from above then closer up
| h2odragon wrote:
| The Nashville Zoo has a station where you go up on a platform
| and feed the giraffes lettuce. The heads are huge, the
| tongues are amazingly long and agile, and the slobber is
| nearly Great Dane grade.
|
| Very cool thing, they charge $5 for the lettuce but its worth
| it. I'd pay more than that to be licked by a giraffe.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| That is so cool. I remember seeing the giraffes at the San
| Diego Wild Animal Park at near head level, and they really
| are something up close. Didn't get to feed them, though!
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| One would assume that the big dinosaurs had similar social
| strengths. I mean when you are effectively un-predatable (!),
| like an elephant or giraffe, or a homo species with clubs and
| fire, all your competition is others of your species.
| technothrasher wrote:
| un-predatable? I've seen plenty of predators in Africa happily
| munching away on giraffe carcasses. There are even a few lion
| prides who specialize in hunting elephants, but giraffes are
| commonly prey.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| So I happily bow to local / expert knowledge, but my
| understanding is that giraffe deaths by lions are fairly rare
| and even when they are eaten scavenging is involved.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe#Mortality_and_health
| technothrasher wrote:
| I think it is certainly true that healthy adults are less
| likely to get taken than the old, sick, or young, as the
| Wikipedia article points out. But that's true for many prey
| species.
|
| Here's an apropos shot I took of a lion family in the
| Linyanti Swamps in Northern Botswana enjoying their giraffe
| kill- https://www.skeptical.org/lionseating.jpg (and to
| Wikipedia's point, this one was definitely young).
| darkerside wrote:
| Coyotes snatch a toddler every once in a while, don't
| they?
| technothrasher wrote:
| Apparently only one known incident of a child killed by a
| coyote, according to Wikipedia:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Keen_coyote_attack
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| If a dingo counts as similar enough to a coyote, then I
| would make it 2:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azaria_Chamberlain
| ajklsdhfniuwehf wrote:
| in other news, in south africa you can buy giraffe pate which is
| made almost like foie gras
| caddemon wrote:
| Not sure if the CNN article is accurately representing the
| research, but it sounds like the social structure is mostly
| specific to female giraffes: "Male giraffes, however, only
| associate consistently with their mothers."
| somewhereoutth wrote:
| Giraffes aren't real.
| ekster wrote:
| Is this an actual conspiracy theory?
| okareaman wrote:
| Apparently: The Truth Comes Out: Giraffes Are A Hoax
|
| https://chivomengro.com/2017/10/23/the-truth-comes-out-
| giraf...
|
| _If the truth ever got out and it became common knowledge
| that one of the most iconic African animals wasn't even real,
| and that Disney has been lying to us for decades, the company
| would be in major economic danger._
| ekster wrote:
| I am surprised it isn't tied in to US politics somehow.
| [deleted]
| ianbicking wrote:
| In interesting giraffe facts, eye size seems related to eyesight
| (little animals with little eyes actually can't see well), and
| giraffes have gigantic eyes, 10x the volume of human eyes. They
| are known to be able to see a human move a mile away. Other
| animals watch giraffe to get signals about nearby predators.
|
| Good references are hard to find, but here's a weird article that
| seems auto generated but also kind of useful...?
| https://sciencing.com/information-giraffe-eyes-8665464.html
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Although that seems to make sense, eagles, and most birds of
| prey generally have smaller eyes than humans and yet they seem
| to have excellent sight too? Easily 20/5 vision from what I
| remember for bald eagles.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > they are known to be able to see a human move a mile away
|
| I don't doubt that Giraffes have good eyesight, but being able
| to see a human move a mile away doesn't seem like a
| particularly difficult feat. A human could also do that with a
| clear line of sight.
| xyproto wrote:
| How socially complex are the most advanced fish?
| jchoksi wrote:
| Its now well known that Giraffes pee on the shorter creatures
| after a video taped confession from one of them -
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IHhAKnCtKc
| kilroy123 wrote:
| Some of them have strong and funny personalities. I was at an
| animal rescue place in harare, zimbabwe. Not many tourists go
| there and they thought I was crazy for being there, alone.
|
| Anyways, it was evening and getting dark. They served food and I
| was sitting there alone eating my food. When suddenly, one of the
| giraffes snuck up behind me and licked the side of my face! I
| turned and saw it very close to me and it scared the living hell
| out of me.
|
| I think he was being a pig and wanted my food but it was pretty
| funny.
|
| Later in the evening he was bugging one of the families and
| wanted food. This huge animal was basically like a giant dog.
|
| Sadly, some people take on African animals as pets. Then they get
| old and give them up. Then they go to the rescue center.
|
| The wildebeest also was confused and thought he was a family dog.
| fidesomnes wrote:
| Truly one of the most magnificent creatures on earth. Up there
| with dolphins and elephants that should be protected at any
| price.
| animanoir wrote:
| Well, not just giraffes, ALL ANIMALS have been misunderstood,
| including humans. If we could just respect every sentient animal
| that would radiate into our society to increase moral and ethic
| health.
| kiliantics wrote:
| Misunderstood in the value system of western civilisation. I
| think there are other cultures that afford far more respect to
| other animals and humans.
| tzone wrote:
| Honestly curious, which other cultures have more advanced and
| fairer human rights setup compared to "western
| civilizations"?
| vincentpants wrote:
| "Advanced". "Fairer". (In massive air quotes) lol. Like the
| advanced and fair culture that is responsible for all the
| permafrost melt this year? I dunno man, I think it's the
| inverse of that. I think all those that adopted Capitalism
| are at the bottom of those subjective lists you just
| mentioned.
| liamdgray wrote:
| Are you equating "advanced" with "fairer?" Reminds me of
| what someone called "chronological chauvinism."
| tzone wrote:
| In case of human rights, what would more advanced mean
| other than one that is more fair to all humans of a
| particular society or country?
|
| More advanced human rights just simply means more fair
| human rights, it has nothing to do with chronology or
| recency. There are plenty of examples of countries that
| had more advanced human rights in the past and regressed
| and made things worse over time.
|
| Easy example: Russia had much better human rights for
| LGBT community not so long ago, however, it has regressed
| and gotten much worse over last 10-15 years.
| liamdgray wrote:
| If you mean better, why not just say better? Using the
| word advanced implies that "progress" is monotonic, but
| you just gave an example of how it isn't. Some
| regressions may have seemed like advances at the time. We
| should probably just refer to "changes."
| failwhaleshark wrote:
| I'm definitely misunderstood but most humans don't want to
| understand that. I'm going to try shaking my head and licking
| my ears less.
| iscrewyou wrote:
| Actual study:
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mam.12268
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