[HN Gopher] Going mouseless
___________________________________________________________________
Going mouseless
Author : FelipeCortez
Score : 115 points
Date : 2021-08-03 03:14 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (felipecortez.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (felipecortez.net)
| dainiusse wrote:
| Hmm. This sounds like a modern day amish :) i guess some sort of
| tiling window manager could better suit it
| dotBen wrote:
| oh boy. I'm happy to send the OP a mouse from Amazon if they DM
| me their address
| dolni wrote:
| If you're interested in a mouseless browser experience, another
| great option is qutebrowser: https://qutebrowser.org/
| toiletaccount wrote:
| I've been doing this for the past 15 years. I use bash, tmux,
| (n)vim and git. It runs in whatever WM and on any OS I'll
| encounter. If your environment is a few simple tools, it's
| basically future proof and very portable. I like to keep config
| files fairly minimal as well so I don't become dependant on
| custom keybinds or functionality.
|
| Touch screens on laptops have really made things nice for
| mouseless browser use. (eg, when you can't keyboard select a
| field or button)
| trey-jones wrote:
| It's a good skill to have. I think sysadmins kind of acquire it
| naturally, with much work being done in the terminal. I'm fairly
| proficient on my own computer with my own hotkeys, though I'm
| sure I could take it further with some effort. I still use a
| mouse frequently in the browser, but for the bulk of my work my
| hands don't leave the keyboard.
|
| I'm not sure whether it's significantly faster than an "expert
| mouse user" but I also don't think it's slower. I haughtily think
| that my killing and yanking is more precise than it would be
| clicking, but who knows?
|
| I think it's kind of a parlor trick really, but it does impress
| the younger and less experienced team members to some degree.
| amelius wrote:
| I'm using a simple Wacom tablet. However, I still switch to the
| mouse for some tasks (Inkscape, KiCAD), because of the
| scrollwheel (indispensable for quick zooming).
|
| I wish there was a hybrid solution (e.g. tablet with separate
| wheel for zooming) which is easy to set up in Linux.
| raihansaputra wrote:
| Is there a keynav like utility for MacOS? Maybe a
| Karabiner/Hammerspoon other scripts?
|
| EDIT: I've found some, should be "customizable" with Karabiner
| customization on top
|
| https://github.com/trishume/QuickMouse
|
| https://github.com/h2ero/XEasyMotion
|
| https://shortcatapp.com/
|
| Some great discussion here:
| https://gist.github.com/lornajane/3892c39098cf70baa9c7a1874c...
| nathan_phoenix wrote:
| You might want to check out Vimac[1], provides system-wide
| Vimium tooltips. Not the same as keynav, but imo works even
| better.
|
| [1]: https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac
| a-b wrote:
| OS X users could try https://github.com/pqrs-org/KE-
| complex_modifications/blob/ma...
| a-b wrote:
| Nicer UI https://ke-complex-
| modifications.pqrs.org/?q=Mouse%20Keys%20...
| asymptosis wrote:
| I remember trying this a decade ago with uzbl and vimperator. It
| was okay for a while, but uzbl unfortunately failed to gain
| momentum, and vimperator was nixxed more and more for various
| reasons.
|
| The article in the link makes it sound like vimium is the last
| holdout of the resistance. It would be nice if it were possible
| to have other options again.
| square_usual wrote:
| On Firefox, Tridactyl is actively developed and very feature
| rich. The only minor annoyance I have with it is that it
| sometimes overrides shortcuts other webapps have defined, which
| makes it difficult to work with eg. linear.app or RES for
| reddit. You _can_ blacklist sites from Tridactyl, but then you
| have to choose between only native shortcuts, which can miss
| some crucial actions but are otherwise better than tridactyl,
| or only tridactyl.
| bovine3dom wrote:
| I think bindurl and unbindurl would solve most of your
| complaints: if you just want a few Tridactyl binds use
| blacklistadd then `:bindurl [URL] --mode=ignore ...`; if you
| want just a few webapp binds use `:unbindurl [URL] ...`.
|
| There's also Ctrl-v in normal mode that lets you send one key
| sequence to ignore mode - I use it on YouTube with `Ctrl-v f`
| to toggle fullscreen. Ctrl-o works similarly but for normal
| mode from ignore mode.
| square_usual wrote:
| Hey, awesome to get a reply from you! Thanks for all your
| work on tridactyl, it's made life a lot easier!
| bovine3dom wrote:
| You're welcome, glad you like it!
|
| I managed to get ctrl-o/v the wrong way round when I
| first posted it, but I've fixed it now : )
| alpaca128 wrote:
| On Firefox there's also Surfingkeys. I've been using that for
| the last year or so. Can't remember the exact reason I switched
| but it's been working well so far.
| nodejs_rulez_1 wrote:
| Now go fingerless on your smartphone. Oh, we make an exception
| there do we?
| toast0 wrote:
| Physical keyboards on smart phones were glorious. Not all the
| apps would let you go through fields using only the keyboard
| (and some keyboards didn't have enough navigation keys,
| anyway), but when it worked well, it worked well.
|
| Sadly, it cost money to include a keyboard, so the race to the
| bottom means you can't find them anymore. Just like real back
| buttons.
| sillyquiet wrote:
| I think the snark is overboard, but I get what you are saying -
| but I will defend the article in that it's a neat experiment
| and it sort of highlights gaps in accessibility, like others in
| the thread have noted.
|
| However, my first computer was a Commodore 64 and I currently
| have a Commodore 64 emulator I love playing around with - and
| doing everything in keyboard commands is a pita for things like
| word processors and spreadsheets even when you have the
| shortcuts in muscle memory.
|
| There's a reason the mouse was so successful.
| CharlesW wrote:
| For anyone considering doing this for speed reasons:
|
| _We've done a cool $50 million of R &D on the Apple Human
| Interface. We discovered, among other things, two pertinent
| facts:_
|
| _* Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster
| than mousing._
|
| _* The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than
| keyboarding._
|
| _This contradiction between user-experience and reality
| apparently forms the basis for many user /developers' belief that
| the keyboard is faster._
|
| https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html
| orzig wrote:
| As with so many things, worth noting that 'people' vary widely
| across every relevant spectrum, and I can't imagine that the
| median hasn't also shifted since (checks notes) 1989 (!!!)
| xyzzy123 wrote:
| I wonder if this is due to the mouse requiring a sort of
| constant attentional feedback loop as you look at the screen
| and guide it where to go.
|
| Even if it's subconscious and technically faster, or even an
| illusion - I _feel_ like mouse is consuming more cognitive
| resources.
|
| The feedback loop with keyboard can feel quite different, in
| flow it feels like you issue commands and look for immediate
| response.
|
| Also, when doing a _repetitive_ task you quickly pick up key
| rhythms and patterns without needing prodigous memory to recall
| every possible "shortcut".
|
| What I am not sure the user interface testing covered is making
| users perform the same task 50 times per day.
|
| I don't think that using keyboard to control mouse has the same
| advantages as a keyboard-native interface.
| strogonoff wrote:
| The essence of the difference between keyboard and mouse
| interfaces is simply that the mouse introduces that extra
| mechanical layer between user's intent and internal APIs, but
| offers the advantage of discoverability.
|
| That advantage and disadvantage tradeoff heavily depends on
| the nature of core functionality, how it's mapped to the UI
| by the developer/designer, and user's overall experience and
| familiarity with software.
| 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
| I have been mouseless for over 30 years. (The office being the
| exception but I still use it minimally.)
|
| The issue is not speed, it's control. Precision, if you will. I
| can automate repeated tasks with the keyboard. Doing that with
| the mouse is beyond awkward; it's counterintuitive.
|
| Mouse is for interaction. Keyboard is for automation.
|
| (Obviously for some tasks, e.g., ones involving graphics, we
| need a mouse.)
|
| Is automation faster than interaction. You tell me. Try doing
| everything your computer does by hand. I will give you $50
| million for your efforts. Then report back with your
| discoveries.
|
| Generally no one (seriously) programs a computer exclusively
| with a mouse. A keyboard is used. Surely, there must be a
| reason for this.
|
| Of course, the "tech" company model of the world needs users to
| not be programmers. The mouse is taken as a signal "we have a
| human on the line". Automation is taken as a signal "it's a
| bot". Truly, the only significant difference between the two is
| that it is far more difficult to manipulate, analyse and serve
| ads to "bots" and charge advertisers money for it. Users who
| can program the computer to automate tasks can escape online
| advertising and tracking in ways that others cannot.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > Generally no one (seriously) programs a computer with point
| and click, drag or touch. A keyboard is used. Surely, there
| must be a reason for this.
|
| I certainly use a keyboard to program, but I also make good
| use of my mouse (well, touchpad) for text selection, changing
| windows, etc.
| zck wrote:
| This article also says:
|
| > It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function
| key to press. Deciding among abstract symbols is a high-level
| cognitive function. Not only is this decision not boring, the
| user actually experiences amnesia! Real amnesia! The time-slice
| spent making the decision simply ceases to exist.
|
| That's not my experience at all. Once you learn a keyboard
| shortcut, it doesn't take two seconds to recall it. Were his
| tests on expert users, or on beginners?
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Well it depends on how often you use it. There are a handful
| of shortcuts I use... Once every other week? It certainly
| takes me a second or two to remember exactly how to do it.
| Even if I've used them on and off for years.
|
| Sure ctrl z everyones got down. But what about alt k to kill
| that one process in that one program you have to keep fixing
| for that one client?
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Sure ctrl z everyones got down. "
|
| Not really.
| smoe wrote:
| Sure, but one of my most commonly used keyboard short cuts
| is the one that pops up a fuzzy search over all the
| available actions/settings. Whereas with the mouse i have
| to dig trough a ton of sub menus and often even have to
| google to find what I want.
| chaps wrote:
| It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function key
| to press. Deciding among abstract symbols is a high-level
| cognitive function. Not only is this decision not boring, the
| user actually experiences amnesia! Real amnesia! The time-slice
| spent making the decision simply ceases to exist.
|
| Hmm. Not to be "that vim guy", but when those
| navigation/search/etc become muscle memory, it's not really a
| high level function anymore to do things like searching.. at
| least in terms path decideability. The sort of amnesia they
| talk about here happens to me whenever I need to pull my hands
| away from the keyboard. Though, their study probably didn't
| have that many opinionated text editor nerds.
| intrepidhero wrote:
| I can't find it just now but I thought there was a followup
| study that looked only at operators familiar with the interface
| and in that case the results were overwhelmingly in favor of
| keyboarding (as most of us would expect).
| accurateappL wrote:
| I use tridactyl on firefox and it works very well.
| arpa wrote:
| I went readless on mobile. Text doesn't wrap, can't zoom out to
| fit lines into view...
| FelipeCortez wrote:
| Sorry about that. I wrote the style sheet in a hurry and forgot
| to test it on mobile, although zooming out worked for me.
| auslegung wrote:
| Same here, but I turned on reader mode on mobile Safari and was
| able to read it
| bartvk wrote:
| Firefox has a neat trick to only search in links. Press '
| (single-quote) and at the bottom, a text input field appears with
| the hint "Quick find (links only)". Type two or three characters
| will focus the link in question, just press enter to navigate.
| janus24 wrote:
| I'm using the US International keyboard mapping, to type ' I
| have to type ' + space. The goal is to add the possibility to
| wrote letters like e (' + e).
|
| So this doesn't work for me and it doesn't seem possible to
| change the shortcut on Firefox :(
| jolmg wrote:
| There's a variant of the US layout called altgr-intl where
| instead of making ' a dead key you can do RightAlt-e for e.
| pge wrote:
| ctrl-shift will switch back and forth between selected
| keyboards in windows, so you can keep the keyboard in ENG US
| most of the time (allowing you to use the ' shortcut in
| Firefox), and use ctrl-shift to switch to ENG INTL when
| needed.
| jbaber wrote:
| Discovered this when some vim-like plugin failed. Realized it's
| about 90% of the reason I was using a vim-like plugin.
| thomasahle wrote:
| I just tried using it when I realized I couldn't upvote your
| comment as the link has no text.
|
| Back to vimium.
| dictum wrote:
| Slightly more involved, but still serviceable:
|
| - start typing the text on a link near the icon you want to
| click (for this comment, `thomasa`...)
|
| - then press Shift+Tab to highlight the previous link
| nextos wrote:
| Vimperator provided an incredible Vim-like experience for
| Firefox.
|
| Sadly, the transition to a new plugin architecture killed it
| and Tridactyl doesn't come even close. Some things are not
| possible with the new Firefox APIs, and many websites steal
| keyboard focus thereby ruining the Vim-like experience.
| Really frustrating.
| tejohnso wrote:
| I ditched my vim-like plugin when I realized I could ctrl-f,
| ctrl-enter to follow links in chrome.
| dagw wrote:
| Wow, TIL. Thanks!
| petepete wrote:
| Thank you so much for this. Used it since more or less day one
| and never knew about this feature.
| globular-toast wrote:
| This used to pair nicely with "/" which opens up the normal
| quick search. Unfortunately this is broken on the "modern" web
| as many web pages "helpfully" override the "/" key to make it
| go to their search box which, of course, is not at all what
| that key should do. There doesn't seem to be any way to stop
| web pages stealing this key and I've slowly learnt to use the
| comparatively clumsy "Ctrl+F" instead as I'm too scared to try
| "/" now.
| bennyp101 wrote:
| Not sure if it's a feature or not, but setting the page
| permissions for "Override keyboard shortcuts" still allows
| '/' to work, but will disable 'esc' for closing the search
| modal/popout - and as '/' is a keyboard shortcut, I have no
| idea why it still lets the site take it over
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Heck, MDN themselves is even guilty of this. It's maddening.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28051562
| Grumbledour wrote:
| I wasn't even aware / was for quick search. I always used
| Ctrl+F, which is incidentally much easier on my localized
| keyboard. But trying it right now, I notice that / and Ctrl+F
| opens different dialogs? One is called "Quick Find", the
| other "Find in Page", with the latter offering additional
| options, even though both seem to do the same thing? What is
| up with that?
| tintt wrote:
| Interesting, up to this day I thought that browser search is
| Cmd/Ctrl+F and webapp search is typically "/". I got used to
| that to the point that I find it convenient.
| swalladge wrote:
| > Unfortunately this is broken on the "modern" web as many
| web pages "helpfully" override the "/" key
|
| Argh this kind of thing makes me really cross. So many sites
| seem to feel the need to reimplement things that are already
| part of most browsers or even in the spec. It's not just
| overridng default shortcuts, but custom context/rightclick
| menus, custom 'links' (where clicking them runs javascript
| code to window.open, instead of being a real link), custom
| form fields that advertise 'excellent accessibility', where
| the fields would have been accessible anyway if they didn't
| decide to reimplement them, disabling text selection,
| overriding focus styles because the accessible styles 'look
| ugly' ... the 'modern' web is pain.
|
| Anyway, this wasn't going to be a rant. My point was going to
| be that consistency is key. Your comment on '"Ctrl+F" instead
| as I'm too scared to try "/" now' really resonated with me,
| because I've thought about this before. I've found that a
| feature or shortcut is only useful if it's consistent. I
| can't build muscle memory or be confident using a feature if
| it only works 90% of the time. Or even 99%.
|
| I've tried tridacyl and other vim-style plugins for browsers
| several times in the past, but always end up uninstalling
| them in disappointment, because it's not possible to have a
| consistent experience. 99% of the time it works perfectly,
| but then there are the handful of sites or browser specific
| pages (eg. about: or view-source:) where it doesn't work at
| all, or doesn't work consistently so one must disable it.
| Then muscle memory totally breaks; you need to learn two sets
| of keybindings for the same context, and that introduces a
| hesitation for every keypress, which kills speed and
| enjoyment.
| sseagull wrote:
| I've always had in mind "you can't have simplicity without
| consistency". Applies to user interfaces, code structure,
| and APIs as well.
|
| The more consistent something is, the less you have to
| remember. But it can be really hard to do things
| consistently for various reasons.
| i_s wrote:
| I mostly agree, but every now and then there is actually a
| good reason to override/re-implement them. For example, let
| us say you are using virtualized components [0], so all
| available elements have not necessarily been rendered to
| the DOM (making Control-F useless).
|
| [0] - https://github.com/bvaughn/react-virtualized
| williamdclt wrote:
| Special mentions to the github actions log output, which not
| only overrides ctrl+f with their own search, but have a
| completely broken search. Which means logs are unsearchable.
| Thanks a lot.
| tux3 wrote:
| Does it open the browser search if you press ^F a second
| time?
| wging wrote:
| Unless they're doing something wonky like hiding content
| that is not in the viewport (thus reimplementing
| scrolling), you may be able to work around that by using
| ctrl-f from the URL bar, denying them the opportunity to
| hijack ctrl-f. So ctrl-l ctrl-f.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| A Firefox extension I want (or maybe I'll make one day)
| would be one that prevents javascript from detecting any
| key input while holding right ctrl or left ctrl
| specifically.
| nicholasjarr wrote:
| Wow! One more reason to stick with Firefox. Thanks!
| manaskarekar wrote:
| Thanks, this is awesome. I totally expect to rely on this
| feature after using it for a few weeks and expect Mozilla to
| yank it out for usability reasons.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I so forgot about this. Incredible.
| fleaaaa wrote:
| Vimium extension(I don't even use vim) and split keyboard
| browsing experience is such a god-send to me, maybe I should
| donate some to these dev..
| ndand wrote:
| My attempt to make a practical keyboard-driven cursor app for
| Windows:
|
| https://github.com/ndandoulakis/SlickCursor
| alpb wrote:
| For macOS, if you like Vimium, you'll like Vimac
| https://vimacapp.com/ as well. It supersedes vimium but vimium is
| still better while working in the browser context.
|
| I'm also actively trying to go mouseless and Vimium+Vimac and
| setting custom keybindings to move/click my mouse on my ZSA
| Moonlander keyboard are currently helping me excellently.
|
| In many cases, moving your hand to the mouse, finding the cursor,
| moving it and clicking it is a lot slower than a keystroke combo
| like F-SD.
| enricozb wrote:
| If you're on linux, consider trying a tiling wm like i3 [0] or
| sway (wayland) [1]. New windows automatically place themselves in
| a nice place and don't overlap. It's extremely (if not entirely)
| keyboard driven and pretty configurable.
|
| [0]: https://i3wm.org/
|
| [1]: https://swaywm.org/
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| Last time I checked there was no equivalent to these, or any
| sort of actual tiling manager in MacOS; is this still the case?
| (For anyone to answer, if you know.)
| ggm wrote:
| https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai
| bpanon wrote:
| Amethyst is pretty good
| samhh wrote:
| I think that was replaced by Rectangle.
| jchw wrote:
| Whenever I _don't_ have a mouse, I notice. Immediately.
|
| Been staying in hotels recently. The wifi login for IHG hotels
| varies a bit, but often has either tabs or a checkbox that is not
| keyboard accessible because it is not part of the focus order.
| Obviously this sucks for people with disabilities, but it also
| sucks for people with Android TV devices (in my case, a
| Chromecast.) Now obviously, one of those things is more important
| than the other (although unfortunately, I bet I know which
| complaint would be more likely to lead to a change.)
|
| So yeah, I've always got a bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo for
| this reason. (It's a bit pricey, but a K830 works well.) It's a
| bit sad that websites and apps are so careless with
| accessibility, but unfortunately, for that reason, it's hard to
| truly go mouseless. At least this page describes how to set up a
| virtual mouse, because yeah, you're going to need it.
| whall6 wrote:
| Investment bankers are judged for using the mouse when using
| excel. It's a rite of passage to be completely mouseless
| agumonkey wrote:
| I remember some finance dude handling excel like a korean gamer
| playing starcraft, it was as exciting as humbling.
| f00zz wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xubbVvKbUfY
| agumonkey wrote:
| wrong link
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Intern: Uses the mouse
|
| Junior: TrackPoint
|
| Senior: Keyboard Only
|
| Partner: Has someone else use the computer
| zerop wrote:
| Same thing happened to me quite a while ago when my mouse didn't
| work consistently and started exploring keyboard ways of doing
| all work... and it did improve my keyboard shortcut awareness and
| usages. I still use them... I feel that keystroke of older
| keyboards was better than modern laptops. The key press was
| longer and somehow I like it more than modern ones.
| salamandersauce wrote:
| Surprised there was no mention of using a tiling window manager
| like Xmonad, RatPoison etc. That can really cut down on mice
| usage.
| HKH2 wrote:
| Even just using shortcut keys to tile windows is better than
| using a mouse.
| matsemann wrote:
| Using a Rollermouse, I never have to leave home-row when moving
| the pointer, so not such a loss of time compared to a normal
| mouse. The mouse-bar is just a centimeter off the space bar, so I
| just move it around with my thumbs. Index+thumb if I need more
| precision. No more elbow pain as well.
| thom wrote:
| This is what I liked about the old ThinkPad nipples. I would
| still buy a laptop with that setup and no trackpad, tbh.
| jbay808 wrote:
| New ThinkPads still have these! They have trackpads too but
| you can disable them in the bios to avoid accidental clicks.
| thom wrote:
| Yeah I just genuinely want the option of no touchpad at
| all, the much loved X200 was the last mode that offered
| this.
| Koshkin wrote:
| I use text-mode links whenever I can, works great (even on
| Windows [0]).
|
| [0] http://links.twibright.com/download/binaries/win32/
| anthk wrote:
| Doable with cwm (window manager with being everything manageable
| with a keyboard), st (pick any terminal here), tmux (better than
| spawning lots of terminals) and vimb (keybindings based web
| browser, but you can use the mouse if you want too) under
| BSD/Linux.
|
| It helps against RSI.
| smoldesu wrote:
| For me, the key to "mouseless" is going to be the Tex Shinobi[0].
| I haven't quite worked up the confidence to buy one yet
| (partially because current mechanical keyboard still works
| frustratingly well), but I look forwards to the day I could get
| something like this for TrackPoint synergy across all my typing
| surfaces.
|
| [0] https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi
| nathan_phoenix wrote:
| If you're using MacOS and are looking for system-wide Vimium,
| checkout out Vimac[1]. Works really well!
|
| [1]: https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac
| hultner wrote:
| I tried it about a year back and it was missing to much back
| then to be usable day to day for me. Took a look again now and
| it does look like there's a lot of improvements, will have to
| give it another go.
| spfzero wrote:
| This looks cool, especially hint mode. Wondering what scroll
| mode adds though, compared to just using the existing Mac OS
| shortcuts (or Pg Up/Pg Dn)
| Aromasin wrote:
| I've used the ZSA Moonlander (https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/) as
| my main driver for the past 6 months, except I've replaced the
| right hand thumb pad with a custom mouse mod. I basically pulled
| the electronics from a Logitec trackball mouse and machined a
| casing for it to clip to the keyboard once the thumb buttons are
| removed.
|
| It's been wonderful. I'm reaching the stage where I'm just as
| dexterous now with my thumb as I was with my regular mouse, and
| my right hand isn't constantly searching for the home row when I
| return to type. I can't recommend it enough.
| mariusor wrote:
| The guys at Ultimate Hacking Keyboard have a trackball
| module[1] for their split keyboard that uses the same idea.
|
| [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball
| sithadmin wrote:
| As a fellow Moonlander user, I'd love to see a write-up of what
| you did.
| fullyforged wrote:
| This sounds really interesting! Do you have photos/a link to
| share?
| speedgoose wrote:
| It's a lot easier with a touchscreen.
| swader999 wrote:
| What I want is a very small thumb trackball mouse that I can
| stick right in the middle of my truly ergonomic cleave keyboard.
| darnir wrote:
| The Ultimate Hackers Keyboard has exactly that as a module you
| can attach to the keyboard.
| swader999 wrote:
| It does it does! Very tempted.
| taxcoder wrote:
| Thanks for the keynav pointer. I switched from a mouse to a
| trackball due to shoulder pain, and it has really helped. Still,
| anytime I can use the keyboard instead of the mouse it makes me
| happy.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I'm at a courthouse, their software is web based and it's so
| horrendously inefficient. They tried to make a few keybindings
| but it's mostly mouse driven. Not even Enter to submit the main
| form. Gah. Lead dev please remember how fast a keyboard is and
| how important it is to go swift on simple jobs duties. Ergonomy
| and efficiency.
| alkonaut wrote:
| A mouse or trackpad is a 2D input device. Unless you have a 2D
| input problem (dragging nodes in a graph, drawing a free form
| curve, selecting a point on a map...) then it was never the right
| tool to begin with.
|
| Navigating discrete UI elements or making simple UI actions of
| the kind that can be mapped to keyboard input - that's easily
| doable with a keyboard. Occasionally it's just a tad harder with
| keyboard than with mouse (web pages are notoriously useless with
| keyboard) but it's _possible_.
|
| I wouldn't last a day without going crazy without a mouse though.
| People who say they have gone mouseless also seem to argue they
| have zero 2D input and basically use text and ignore all other
| workloads. That's not exactly solving the problem (not that I
| think it can be solved any better than just using a mouse!)
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _Unless you have a 2D input problem..._
|
| Are not most GUIs are a 2D input mechanism?
| alkonaut wrote:
| Sort of (depends on terminology): A form is a set of controls
| laid out in 2D. But they are ordered and discrete so you can
| just ignore their positioning in x,y and instead navigate in
| their order instead (e.g tabbing through controls) making it
| a 1D input!
|
| By "2D input" in this context I mean input where there isn't
| also such a navigation option and you _must_ input one or
| more coordinates and there is no way to enter the coordinates
| as numbers. For example the input surface (image) in a
| drawing program like Microsoft paint.
| auggierose wrote:
| Random access vs. sequential access. Guess which one is
| more efficient?
| arksingrad wrote:
| It depends on the GUI.
|
| For photo editing, the interactions with the photo directly
| require fine control in two dimensions with the cursor.
|
| Many GUIs are just interfaces to modal switches, or a
| categorical variable with usually a finite number of options.
| enriquto wrote:
| yes. But text UIs are, arguably, infinite-dimensional
| (because language is). Thus a 2D input problem is a severely
| limited particular case, that allows for very specific and
| useful optimizations helped by a mouse, pad or trackball.
| user3939382 wrote:
| Keyboard is faster when instructing the computer for actions that
| you execute all the time. For situations where it's practical to
| learn a keyboard input, it's great.
|
| Where this interface paradigm breaks down are in contexts where
| the input is novel. Keyboard shortcuts and commands have a
| discoverability problem that has not been commonly solved in way
| that makes them faster than the mouse for new/rare users.
| cle wrote:
| Take care of your hands. I went on a crusade to go mouseless a
| few years ago, and eventually it resulted in RSI from typing so
| much. Focus on your posture, take breaks, stretch your hands and
| fingers, get an ergonomic keyboard, etc.
|
| An under-appreciated benefit of using a mouse (as a programmer)
| is that it "switches things up" on your hands so that you aren't
| doing the same repetitive motions all day long. You can be
| marginally faster with a mouseless workflow, but you're
| definitely not very productive when you can't type for months due
| to RSI.
| cainxinth wrote:
| My computer-related RSI prevention tips:
|
| Get separate mouse and keyboard wrist rests.
|
| Use a vertical mouse instead of a traditional one.
|
| Use more than one type of mousing device and switch up from
| time to time. Graphic tablets with digital pens take some
| getting used to but are excellent.
|
| Look up RSI forearm stretches and take breaks to stretch your
| arms and hands for a few moments at least every few hours. I'm
| also a big fan of gyro ball exercisers.
|
| Get an ergonomic chair with movable arm rests that can keep
| your arms at around the same height as the desk your working
| at.
| jxramos wrote:
| I second the alternation idea, I have something like 4 input
| devices I alternate between to "spread the load" across
| different limbs and body parts. People experiment with
| different keyboard layouts too that basically remap the
| characters to different keys on the keyboard.
|
| * roller mouse * left hand vertical mouse * right hand
| vertical mouse * trackpad * foot pedal
| treeman79 wrote:
| Started having severe wrist pain 20 year ago. I got a bean
| bag wrist pad. No pain ever so long as I use bran bag ones.
| Comes back quick without.
| nikivi wrote:
| I do similar but on mac and using Safari.
| https://github.com/televator-apps/vimari is great for this.
|
| So is Karabiner (https://wiki.nikitavoloboev.xyz/macos/macos-
| apps/karabiner) to map opening apps to two keys.
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