[HN Gopher] Apple iPhone charger teardown: quality in a tiny exp...
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Apple iPhone charger teardown: quality in a tiny expensive package
(2012)
Author : retskrad
Score : 201 points
Date : 2021-08-03 19:57 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.righto.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.righto.com)
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Is there a way to hack this thing?
| turbinerneiter wrote:
| You might be able to influence the output voltage somewhat by
| dwindling with the passives, but there is no code running
| anywhere that you could manipulate.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Thanks. I heard the battery is "smarter" in the sense that it
| has some chips.
| MAGZine wrote:
| (2012)
| smilespray wrote:
| I knew I had read this teardown before...
| yaseer wrote:
| Previously discussed here:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3996171
| GIRLHAKCER wrote:
| Wow
| baybal2 wrote:
| It's a typical Delta power supply.
|
| They make good quality power supplies if you have a buck.
|
| https://www.deltaww.com
| matrix wrote:
| For anyone interested in these - their consumer chargers are
| here:
|
| https://www.myinnergie.com/us
|
| Unfortunately, their "buy now" button links to Amazon; I don't
| trust Amazon not to sell me a counterfeit that will burn my
| house down.
| wyager wrote:
| Apple is the only company I've ever come across that seems
| capable of building a phone charger without any noticeable
| inductor whine.
| yepthatsreality wrote:
| Also the only company I have purchased a charging cable from
| that the outer rubber covering wears away in a few months from
| light use (didn't move it or coil it, just sits there plugged
| into the wall). Kind of ironic when compared to the high
| quality charging wall plug.
| outworlder wrote:
| Definitely not the only company to suffer from this, but most
| charging cables from other companies are sleeved with plastic
| - which seems more durable but will wear out too. Usually
| they don't feel or look as good, compared to a _new_ Apple
| cable. Which is, I assume, the reason they keep doing this,
| to look great at the store.
|
| Problem is, like you say, it can wear away relatively easily,
| depending on conditions. And they don't look anywhere near as
| good once dust starts building up.
|
| Now, you can fix this (and any other cable for that matter)
| with some paracord and optionally some plastic sleeving
| (techflex or similar) and heat shrink. That's better than
| throwing away cables. You can also do this for aesthetics
| with perfectly good cables. Bunch of youtube videos on how to
| do this (keep in mind, most are sponsored or made by the very
| companies selling these).
|
| The thing I don't understand is - colorful paracord makes the
| cables look great. They come in different colors, which would
| make a lot of sense for Apple. Protected by good plastic,
| they are pretty much indestructible. At scale, they obviously
| have access to even better materials with they could use to
| make their cables look unique.
| HPsquared wrote:
| I wish they'd make the cable part replaceable.
| jng wrote:
| Finally on the USB-C Mac M1 chargers! (at least on the Air)
| bartvk wrote:
| FYI, it's not new, all the USB-C stuff has this. My 2016
| MacBook Pro came with a USB-C charger with replaceable
| cable.
| post_break wrote:
| I have a handful of chargers, from anker, aukey, choetech, etc.
| None of them make a sound. What's incredible is with GaN my 61w
| macbook pro charger now fits in the palm of my hand.
|
| https://imgur.com/a/tuBcOJd
| shaicoleman wrote:
| I've only experienced coil whine from OnePlus Dash chargers. I
| mainly use Samsung chargers, and never had an issue.
| greggturkington wrote:
| Can you believe a new iPhone 5 only included a 5W USB-A power
| adapter?!
|
| Compare that with an iPhone 10 5 years later, which came with a
| beefy 5W USB-A power adapter.
| samatman wrote:
| That's infinitely more powerful than the charger which comes
| with the iPhone 12!
| smoldesu wrote:
| It's a shame Apple hasn't really made any more strides in the
| world of chargers recently. I was particularly disappointed by
| the Magsafe Battery Pack[0] which rather disappointingly couldn't
| top off my phone from 10%. For $99, I'd hope for a few more mAh
| to be squeezed in there...
|
| [0] https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJWY3AM/A/magsafe-
| battery...
| wlesieutre wrote:
| If you're looking for every last bit of juice out of a battery,
| inductive charging might not be the best way to get it. I'm
| sure Apple wants to strike a balance of convenience and enough
| power for most people without making it any bulkier than
| necessary.
|
| Product-wise there was a rumor that Apple will be switching to
| more compact GaN chargers this year, so I wonder if that will
| come with the Macbook Pro redesign?
|
| https://www.macrumors.com/2021/01/04/apple-gan-chargers-rumo...
|
| Anker and others have had these for a while, but one imagines
| the supply chain is trickier when you need to produce tens of
| millions of them.
| skohan wrote:
| It would be cool if they also applied this to the Macbook Air
| chargers. The tiny charger on the M1 Air makes it a pleasure
| to travel with, and an even smaller one would be incredible.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| I keep one of these in my messenger bag for use with my
| iPad, if I'm not mistaken it matches the Air charger
| wattage too: https://us.anker.com/products/a2614
| intsunny wrote:
| It's a shame so few companies still make high quality 5V/1A
| chargers anymore. Apple seems to be the only one left that does
| so, and with consistent and predictable manufacturing.
|
| 5V/1A is great for overnight charging. I've noticed my phone
| battery lasts so much longer the next day.
| salamandersauce wrote:
| At least with Samsung you can turn fast charging off. That's
| what I do most of the time. I only fast charge if I need it
| fast.
| jbay808 wrote:
| I don't know if it's unique to them, but Sony slow-charges up
| to 80-90% until about an hour before you set your alarm, then
| brings you up to 100% before you wake up. Seems to work well
| and the battery degradation I've seen, after 4 years, has been
| very minimal.
| outworlder wrote:
| This also exists on IOS.
| naavis wrote:
| OnePlus does the same.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Now, if only they could engineer a cable that doesn't get
| ripped to shreds within the first few weeks of use...
| zz865 wrote:
| I've seen many house fires over the last few years that were from
| chargers. I'd hope risk of bursting into flames is one of the
| most important things when choosing - it freaks me out. I'd hope
| the big brands have 0% chance of this - is that correct?
| vbezhenar wrote:
| Apple Macbook charger was the only one charger in my life which
| released magic smoke. I must admit that it was after I soldered
| new cable and assembled it with duct tape (because it was glued
| and I broke the plastic casing trying to pry it off), but that
| does not inspire much confidence in me anyway. I don't know why
| everyone prays Apple hardware which was so terrible in my life
| in so many occasions and the only reason I tolerate it is their
| good software.
| llbeansandrice wrote:
| You're blaming Apple for a charger that you took apart,
| soldered, and then put back together with duct tape, Elmer's
| and prayers?
| cyral wrote:
| This is what sketches me out so much about electronics like
| chargers by random brands on Amazon (the trend lately seems to
| be random characters in all caps) that surely have no oversight
| or conformance to standards.
| JamesSwift wrote:
| Its been a while but my first macbook charger came close to
| setting a fire I think. I smelled something as I passed my
| bedroom, and found that the computer charger was smoking. I
| unplugged it from the computer/wall and put it in my sink and
| things were fine, but it definitely freaked me out. I haven't
| had similar issues since, but every single one of my dozen or
| more since have frayed _very_ quickly relative to other
| cords/chargers I use.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| I have seen the result of two mobile chargers blow up in the
| office - the fire was only prevented by fuses and even so there
| were black scorch marks on the power outlets. My dads battery
| charger blew up similarly.
|
| In all cases it was because they were brought cheap on
| Aliexpres. I haven't seen any chargers sold elsewhere have any
| issues. The closest thing I got was when I charged my laptop on
| my bed and had put the blanket over the charger - it didn't
| fail but it got really, really, really hot.
|
| So based on anecdata: don't buy things things to stick in walls
| on aliexpress. Also fuses are really nice.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| A lot of the chargers and cables you find in gas stations and
| the like are identical to the AliExpress junk, so it's a good
| idea to be wary of those too.
| lmilcin wrote:
| > (...) roughly 4mm of distance is required between the two
| circuits. (As I discuss in Tiny, cheap, dangerous: Inside a
| (fake) iPhone charger, cheap chargers totally ignore these safety
| rules.
|
| Which is why I immediately destroy any charger at my home that is
| suspect to not come from a brand name producer.
|
| Is it really worth to risk your life for couple of dollars?
|
| Electronics is my hobby and I also happen to design some switch
| mode power supplies for AC. I can't overstate how difficult it is
| to design a good safe SMPS. Comparing to my other projects it
| seems it is at least 20-50 times harder to design a dedicated
| SMPS than the rest of the circuit, even with a lot of specialized
| literature on the matter to help me out (meaning I don't create
| my own topologies, I just learn the ones that are well described
| in the book). And that for applications under 100W.
| londons_explore wrote:
| I actually think that while this charger is acceptable, it is
| pretty disappointing from Apple.
|
| A neat design wouldn't use a bridge rectifier on the input side -
| it would use synchronous rectification (more efficient,
| substantially smaller because no big passives are required for
| input smoothing, and nicer on the electrical grid because it's
| actually possible to design it to deliberately absorb harmonics
| generated by other devices in your home).
|
| Next step would be to use a much higher switching rate (eg.
| 3Mhz). Use some high performance MOSFETs to reduce switching
| losses. Suddenly that transformer becomes the size of a grain of
| rice and the capacitors can all be surface mount. The whole thing
| can now be lighter, smaller, cheaper, and less environmentally
| impactful while maintaining the same performance.
|
| Apples design here was electrically boring and very much not
| pushing the envelope of what is possible.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| >I was surprised to realize how enormous Apple's profit margins
| must be on these chargers. These chargers sell for about $30 (if
| not counterfeit), but that must be almost all profit.
| jug wrote:
| I guess that's where they need to be for their current market
| valuation? But this article also illustrates why I pay this
| premium over third party budget stuff.
| tintt wrote:
| Love it when companies do the smallest things right. A bit sad
| that a dollar worth of additional components incure 200-300% of
| the final price markup (comparing Apple vs Samsung chargers)
| rconti wrote:
| [2012]
|
| I've replaced all my mini cube iPhone chargers with Anker GaN IQ3
| nano chargers that do 18w from the same size.
| sMarsIntruder wrote:
| 2012
| quwert95 wrote:
| Does anyone know of a teardown like this for more recent chargers
| (ie. the "top rated Amazon chargers" or "Best Buy Specials")?
| sorry_outta_gas wrote:
| depends on your definition of quality they still break on me
| often
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| It might be a lot of profit, but it takes a lot of cash to hire
| the type of people who would design such a thing, first.
| mshockwave wrote:
| exactly, estimating the price solely by the sum of its
| components is like paying programmer by the number of
| characters they typed
| turbinerneiter wrote:
| They make at least 200 million of those a year and they can
| use the same design easily for 5 years. 1 billion devices. 1
| cent per device would allow them to spend 10 million on the
| development.
|
| Development cost is neglible for this kind of stuff.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| Yes, certainly, but it also implies one has sufficient
| demand to make back the cost.
| kens wrote:
| Yes, exactly! Also, a lot of the design work is done by the
| manufacturer (Flextronics) and the semiconductor company.
| Apple has different charger designs (that look identical
| outside) so they can play off different companies against
| each other.
| arthurcolle wrote:
| Reminds me of this: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?sto
| ry=Negative_2000_Li...
| JohnJamesRambo wrote:
| I think it is pretty much the datasheet reference circuit so
| the people that designed the chip were already paid for that
| and that cost is in the bill o
| jeffbee wrote:
| It's basically the circuit from the L6565 application notes. What
| sets it apart from the cheap and dangerous ones is those
| manufacturers start from the reference design and try to throw
| away things they don't really understand to save 2C/.
| ValentineC wrote:
| Apple may make great USB chargers, but they have certainly cut
| corners and shirked responsibility when it comes to the rubber
| insulation of their Lightning and (MacBook) MagSafe cables.
|
| I've brought my frayed MagSafe charger, which has degraded to the
| point that it's been staining everything blue, to an Apple Store
| Genius Bar multiple times, and the Geniuses (in multiple
| countries) keep saying that it's my fault that the insulation
| degrades over time, and that such "wear and tear" is not covered
| under warranty.
| wil421 wrote:
| Never had this issue with my late 2011 MBP and my 2017 MBP.
| Both MagSafe chargers are in tact. The 2011 one outlasted the
| computer.
| randomdata wrote:
| The charger from my 2009 MBP has its cable perfectly intact;
| looks brand new. The charger from my 2012 model disintegrated
| at both ends. They lived similar lives. I have to think the
| material quality declined somewhere in there.
| dijit wrote:
| I've also never frayed an actual Apple cable, but I've had
| some non-apple cables that didn't last very long.
|
| But, maybe part of that is understanding that the Apple ones
| suck?
|
| I know they've picked form over function for the strain
| relief, so I make a subconscious effort not to strain them.
|
| My ex-girlfriends charger didn't last very long, but mine
| (from 2011) is still quite well maintained, though darkened
| and discoloured with age.
|
| Ugh, this sounds like I'm saying "you're holding it wrong"
| but, what I mean is that maybe we have a bit of survivorship
| bias here and because we tried to keep our cables in good
| shape.
|
| I highly suspect too, that Apple is using eco-friendly
| plastics in the cables, which might be part of why they
| degrade so poorly, even when not strained at the ends.
| wil421 wrote:
| Yea my wife's cables don't last long. I think it's the way
| people curl it up.
|
| Anker probably makes the better 3rd party cables. Other
| brands on Amazon are far worse. I try not to buy 3rd party
| cables for my laptops but will by them for phones and
| tablets.
| [deleted]
| jng wrote:
| Not to mention the cable deterioration. I recently got an M1
| MacBook Air and the USB-C charger is finally designed such that
| the cable is replaceable. No admission of wrongdoing, blaming
| the user, but at least an acceptable final fix.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| I wonder if their new braided cords are in response to the old
| yellowing plastics.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Their strain relief is absolutely rubbish, too. How many of us
| have multiple Apple cables that end up looking like this [1]?
| They've been doing this for how long, and they can't solve
| strain relief, which every other cable manufacturer has figured
| out?
|
| 1:
| https://photos5.appleinsider.com/gallery/40148-77246-000-lea...
| ksec wrote:
| Yes. People keep saying it hasn't happen or what ever. Or
| Negative Internet Comments being vocal. I mean for pete sake,
| just look at the total Lightning Cable certified,
| manufacturer and shipped annually and compared to the total
| Active user of iPhone + iPad.
|
| Why would people buy them if they aren't broke. Why is every
| cable manufacture trying to capitalise on the market if there
| wasn't a profit.
|
| And instead of ( _cough_ ) doing the right thing and fix it.
| Apple continues to earn money and commission from their MFi
| programme.
| Cd00d wrote:
| Unfortunately, I bet if they added strain relief there would
| be a myriad of complaints that the cables are too hard to
| pack/fit in a pocket because the end is too rigid.
|
| Personally, I've never had an issue with this, with 1st or
| 3rd party lightning cables, or with 1st party magsafe. But,
| my opinion is a lightning cable is dirt cheap, and people
| want them in their pocket when worried about battery, whereas
| a new magsafe charger is expensive and should have more
| robustness.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| They know, they just don't care.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| Of course they do care. Selling overpriced chargers must be
| a sizeable part of their income.
| baybal2 wrote:
| It's intentional.
|
| There is a business strategy called "planned obsolescence" or
| simply "planned breakdown"
|
| They would've not DRM chipped a freaking cable if not for
| them selling them for $20.
|
| Take a look on my experience from a decade ago:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26134006
|
| _> I recalled that when in 2015, working for another
| sourcing shop working for likes of BestBuy
| /Futureshop/Target/London Drugs I was asked to tear down few
| chargers for them.
|
| > I found that diodes in parallel are surprisingly common
| around the industry.
|
| > This is such a thing which you are pretty much told on day
| 1 of any electronics course that it is impossible to not to
| know.
|
| > My only thinkable conclusion was that people keep doing it
| on purpose._
| jacquesm wrote:
| I would like to see a picture of that circuit, not just a
| diagram. I've used this trick to good effect, and _also_
| used another trick: to use the circuit board as a balancing
| resistor. Just make the track a little bit longer for
| instance by routing the wires less than efficiently or by
| putting a little wavy line in it and you have a very low
| resistance resistor just perfect for balancing out the
| differences in diode switch speed and bias voltage.
|
| In electronics not everything is what it seems to be at
| first glance. For an encore check out pcb fuses, coils and
| even capacitors.
| tshaddox wrote:
| > How many of us have multiple Apple cables that end up
| looking like this [1]?
|
| Apparently a lot, based on all the Internet comments I've
| seen over the years. But apparently I'm the weird one who has
| literally never had an Apple or third party lightning cable
| fail (except a couple in blatant cases of accidental misuse,
| like getting one stuck in a chair wheel). I've thrown several
| away because they get dirty and gross, and I've had a couple
| that seem to get flakey after a few years (I believe due to
| damage or corrosion to an exposed pin). But I've certainly
| never had one visibly fray like that!
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Apple may make great USB chargers, but they have certainly
| cut corners and shirked responsibility when it comes to the
| rubber insulation of their Lightning and (MacBook) MagSafe
| cables.
|
| Apple _can_ be good at function, but their basic mindset is
| definitely form _over_ function. It seems like they 'll
| compromise anything in an instant if there's some kind of
| aesthetic payoff (even an extremely minor one).
| outworlder wrote:
| > it's my fault that the insulation degrades over time
|
| Yeah, since the cable is not replaceable(at least, anything
| that's not USB-C), that's a crappy thing to say. It's obviously
| a widespread problem. The charger is expensive but can be
| replaced.
|
| I had a frayed _Apple Thunderbolt Display_ cable. Non removable
| and can 't be easily replaced. Had to use some insulation tape
| at the time because an authorized Apple shop also claimed this
| was wear and tear not covered under warranty.
| jacquesm wrote:
| And on their - still - crap keyboards.
| kevinherron wrote:
| I know this is a common complaint, but not one of my iPhone or
| PowerBook/MacBook/MacBook Pro cables has ever failed or started
| to look anything like these complaints.
|
| I don't really think myself as one to "baby" my gadgets, so I'm
| not really sure what the heck you all are doing to your cables.
| babypuncher wrote:
| Same here. I believe it happens, I see the frayed cables
| _everywhere_ , but the MagSafe charger from my 2009 MacBook
| and the lightning cable that came with my iPhone 5 in 2012
| are still perfectly fine and sees regular use in my car.
|
| The strain relief on these cables is practically nonexistent,
| so I won't put the blame squarely on abusive users.
| vmception wrote:
| It could just as easily be environment causing corrosion
|
| Very strange victim blaming going on in this thread, nobody
| has even attempted suggesting how to avoid it
| tooltalk wrote:
| If you are using your Macbook like a desktop, you are
| unlikely to have any problem. If you are on the other hand a
| mobile user, ie, you move around between school, work, home,
| coffe shop, etc, yes, it's slightly more than an annoying
| issue.
|
| The Magsafe chargers were among the worst rated products on
| Apple's own online store until the company removed all user
| ratings & reviews in Nov, 2019.
| rsynnott wrote:
| > The Magsafe chargers were among the worst rated products
| on Apple's own online store
|
| I mean, you'd expect that. Nobody is buying a new one for
| fun. ~Everyone buying a new one has had one fail on them,
| so poor reviews are absolutely expected.
| gambiting wrote:
| >>I've brought my frayed MagSafe charger, which has degraded to
| the point that it's been staining everything blue
|
| How. I have a 12 years old magsafe charger and it's in perfect
| condition. Never frayed any cables, not the old 30-pin ones,
| not the lightning ones, not the new USB-C ones. I just don't
| get what people are doing with their apple cables to make them
| fray like this.
| hughrr wrote:
| Not joking but this is entirely user related. In the 15 years
| I've been using the things I haven't killed a single cable. Not
| one. The strain relief is not great but if you're careful it's
| absolutely fine and it's no worse than the other cables out
| there.
|
| The killers are people who sit there with the cable rammed into
| their stomach bending it at 90 degree angle when using their
| phone. On the MacBook chargers it's usually bashing it
| constantly or tugging it.
|
| I come from a world of RF cables which cost more than a MacBook
| and have very limited bend limits. What we have is insanely
| robust these days. Just be nice to it.
|
| Edit: my daughter had my 2010 MBP until recently which the
| original charger blew up on. After dissecting it the cable was
| fine but the main IC had cracked in half. No shorts on the
| cable grommet. It lasted 11 years! What are you people doing to
| these things?
| handrous wrote:
| It's definitely user related. My Apple cables last
| indefinitely--unless my wife gets ahold of them. Then? Look
| out.
|
| I'm just careful not to twist them or sharply bend them. If I
| pack them I usually just very-loosely wad them up and put
| them in a not-too-full part of a bag. That's the extent of my
| "care".
|
| [EDIT] However! This does not mean Apple shouldn't make their
| cables better so they survive whatever people are doing to
| them to wreck them, since it's evidently very common.
| hughrr wrote:
| Oh yes exactly - my ex wife could fuck up a cable or some
| earpods in about 3 months. I lost count of the amount of
| earpods that went down the toilet.
| pushrax wrote:
| I use litz wire for headphone cables. For a cable that's
| constantly on you, there's always some chance something
| happens unexpectedly. I've broken my share of earpods.
| hughrr wrote:
| Litz wire doesn't increase the durability as such, merely
| reduces skin effect in RF applications. Sennheiser used
| to sell steel cables for their professional headphones.
| Now _those_ are durable. I ran over mine with my chair
| about 50 times a day and the cable was still going after
| 10 years.
| pushrax wrote:
| Steel makes sense for extreme durability - I suppose you
| could use extremely thin steel wire for in-ears to make
| it flexible, though it might require a very special alloy
| to be thin and low resistance?
|
| In my experience, litz wire is exceptionally flexible and
| suitable for getting shoved in a pocket frequently. Each
| wire can be quite thick due to the flexibility.
| handrous wrote:
| As far as reliability goes, I do see _a lot_ more frays
| in Apple cables (though not ones that remain exclusively
| in my care) than others, but _part of_ the reason is that
| other cables seem to have a weirdly-high rate of
| mysterious failures in absence of evident physical
| damage. They just die after 6-24 months. Maybe they 'd
| fray eventually too, but they crap out before it happens.
| I don't get it. The only Apple cables I've seen do
| anything similar are usb(-a/-c)-to-lightning charging
| cables (and I suspect I just need to rubbing-alcohol the
| contacts on the lightning-plug ends on those, to solve
| the problem)
| thebruce87m wrote:
| Agreed, when my wife gets them they end up with knots in
| them. Knots!
| Lammy wrote:
| > I'm just careful not to twist them
|
| This is the difficult part when the whole cable is a single
| solid color and the plug fits either direction. I have a
| Lightning cable in my car that only gets used hanging
| straight down from my dash-mounted iPhone, and I've noticed
| the device-end strain relief finally giving out from this
| after a few years.
| handrous wrote:
| Agreed that some kind of stripe would make this a lot
| easier. Save me testing directions and trying to judge
| which has more tension. I do the same thing with keyed
| plugs, though--if anything, I find it easier to
| accidentally introduce more twists in those, since I'm
| more likely to _need_ to half-twist it one way or the
| other to get it oriented the right way.
| joecool1029 wrote:
| >It's definitely user related. My Apple cables last
| indefinitely--unless my wife gets ahold of them. Then? Look
| out.
|
| I had a Belkin lightning nylon charge cable I used for
| years and it worked great, then my gf borrowed it for 2
| days and "gorilla'd" the end. Since she had a habit of
| chewing through the regular cables in only a few months, I
| was curious to watch and see what she does different.
|
| It was two things:
|
| 1. She uses the phone while charging frequently and has the
| cable kept taut, this strains the connector.
|
| But more importantly
|
| 2. She yanks the phone off the charger by grabbing the cord
| and pulling the phone at an angle, this can destroy a worn
| cable in a matter of days.
| asdff wrote:
| You could literally use one of those bog standard black PC
| laptop chargers as a weapon and it would be fine. Those
| things are indestructible. You could repel off a cliff with
| one. Have you ever seen one frayed or damaged at all? I
| haven't. Meanwhile, go to any college lecture hall and you
| will find about half the macbook chargers are covered in tape
| or frayed. This is "You are holding it wrong" all over again.
|
| Maybe the macbook charger is stronger than your expensive RF
| cables, but it is far weaker than anything else the
| competition puts out and that's a huge annoyance, as a mac
| user myself who gets maybe 3 years out of a given apple
| cable, be it magsafe charger, lightning cable, or even the
| wired headphones. It's a distinctly Apple issue, cables in my
| hands from other manufacturers, even no name junk looking
| cables, don't have these issues.
| rsynnott wrote:
| > You could literally use one of those bog standard black
| PC laptop chargers as a weapon and it would be fine. Those
| things are indestructible.
|
| These fail. And good luck getting an OEM replacement if
| it's more than a couple of years old and from a low-end
| laptop.
| deergomoo wrote:
| > You could literally use one of those bog standard black
| PC laptop chargers as a weapon and it would be fine
|
| The cable itself may last, but the connectors sure as hell
| don't. Barrel jacks are well known for getting loose and
| making poor connections over time.
| hughrr wrote:
| We've got a box of fucked up Dell chargers in the office
| and a box of fucked up Dells as well. Oh and some HP ones.
| That does not hold.
| deergomoo wrote:
| When I first got an iPhone 7 (the first one without a
| headphone jack) I bought a second adapter straight away,
| because I looked at the one that came in the box and figured
| it would last about five minutes.
|
| Nearly 5 years later, that same flimsy adapter is still going
| strong in my car. It's been plugged and unplugged thousands
| of times (my fiancee's phone needs a USB-C adapter--what a
| fun world we live in), stood on, left on the floor, left in
| both sub-freezing and summer heat wave temperatures. Still
| haven't needed that second one. I'm kind of amazed (but would
| still prefer a headphone jack).
| kruxigt wrote:
| Semi related. The power cable to my one year old iMac Pro
| started to get sticky to the touch only a few months after I
| installed it. It's like it is melting.
| mopsi wrote:
| It's wrong to blame users. To please Greenpeace, Apple
| removed PVC from their cables (maybe only in some markets?).
| Such cables deteriorated on their own. First they swelled up
| and turned gray near the MagSafe connector, then turned
| yellow, and finally became brittle and fell apart in sticky
| dark green bits.
|
| I have never seen any cable, even under great stress, fall
| apart like that. It was an obvious chemical change, not
| physical stress.
|
| I suspect deterioration was either due to heat transmitted
| from the chassis over the MagSafe connector, or from finger
| oils, as people touch the cable most near the connector.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Anecdata, on my last MagSafe system, I went through 2 units
| that failed within the first year but the 3rd one lived for
| several years.
|
| I didn't change my habits at all.
|
| Which makes me suspect they changed the formula.
| joecool1029 wrote:
| >I have never seen any cable, even under great stress, fall
| apart like that. It was an obvious chemical change, not
| physical stress.
|
| I dug out some old cables from the end of the featurephone
| era and noticed that the USB data cables had chemical
| disintegration, like the plasticizer up and left the
| synthetic rubber or whatever it's made out of. This left
| the outside crumbling off. I really do wonder what they
| were made out of and why it does this. Similarly the
| rubberized coatings so popular on mp3 players of the late
| 90's, early 2000's do this as well.
|
| To contrast I have 30+ year old NEMA connector cables (kind
| for server/desktop PSU's) with zero signs of wear, maybe
| they got a little stiffer over the years but no cracking. I
| have also used extension cords this old and again, none of
| this chemical degradation. I think lead stabilizers were
| used in outdoor cables and this is why they hold up better,
| and also carry lead warnings sometimes on the cables?
| csydas wrote:
| I'm not sure this is accurate; on both classic magsafe
| adapters (mid 2012) and 2019 adapters, I've not had an
| adapter fray, and both my 2012 and 2019 MacBook Airs are
| getting daily all-day use (and because I and my friend are
| clumsy, weekly coffee baths). A quick search for Apple
| magsafe pvc removal suggests (from Greenpeace's own site)
| that the change you are commenting on was done in 2009.
|
| The original cables for both survived just fine for their
| entire life time, and the 2012 machine travelled all across
| the globe, and the 2019 even more so in a shorter amount of
| time, again, with very active and heavy use.
|
| I don't think this is a widespread issue, and sounds
| isolated.
| codesnik wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if that oils and bacteria, and if
| that's dependent on particular user's hand microbiota.
| Apple should and could test it on users who report fraying,
| IMHO. Mine mbpro USB-C charger cable is just turned to
| yellow after a year of use. I'm going to add some
| shrinkwrap before it turns to goo, hopefully it'll work
| this time.
| syshum wrote:
| >>It's wrong to blame users.
|
| That is the Apple Way. Apple is never at fault, they have
| prefect engineering.. They have Genius "Technicians".. and
| so it is impossible for them to make a mistake..
|
| Remember it was not Apple Engineering that was a problem
| years ago, it was because people simply did not know how to
| hold their phone correctly, Stupid users thinking they
| could just hold their device however they felt like, no
| when you buy an Apple Product you do it the Apple Way...
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _if you're careful it's absolutely fine and it's no worse
| than the other cables out there_
|
| That's clearly false, and feeling the need to include "if
| you're careful" in your statement exposes its falseness. No
| other major manufacturer makes power cables that chronically
| disintegrate like this so much that it has become a meme
| specifically about Apple's cables: https://imgur.com/AVP6riy
|
| Not unsleeved. Disintegrated. It's because the material they
| use is soft and extremely undurable, unlike literally every
| other major cable manufacturer.
|
| Apple's cables, and _nobody_ else's, do this when even the
| slightest amount of angle is applied:
| https://i.imgur.com/seu0xh8.jpg
|
| Look closely at the circled part. That bulge is caused by
| extremely soft sleeve material that isn't bonded to the
| internal wires combined with inappropriately abrupt strain
| relief. That bulge is why Apple cables disintegrate so often,
| and even just the downward force of gravity from a laptop
| being on the edge of a table with the power cord dangling off
| the side onto the floor is enough to cause it over time.
| mns wrote:
| > That's clearly false, and feeling the need to include "if
| you're careful" in your statement exposes its falseness. No
| other major manufacturer makes power cables that
| chronically disintegrate like this so much that it has
| become a meme specifically about Apple's cables
|
| That's quite a strong and definitive conclusion from your
| part. Apple is a company that sold hundreds of millions of
| these cables, probably more than any other company out
| there, of course there are a lot of people with issues. But
| just like that, also based on anecdotes, I have lightning
| cables from the first time they released the port and they
| are perfectly usable. I never had an issue with an Apple
| cable in more than 10 years. In the same time, a friend of
| mine goes over one cable a year, so yes, I would say it's
| also people, it's scale, it's manufacturing, it's
| everything. But to call this an Apple issue is quite a
| stretch.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Going to suggest UV exposure might be a variable.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _Apple is a company that sold hundreds of millions of
| these cables, probably more than any other company out
| there_
|
| I'm not sure how one can honestly argue that Apple has
| sold more laptops than every other laptop manufacturer. I
| they've sold more cables (I doubt it, but let's pretend),
| well...that would be because people keep having to
| replace them.
|
| This problem is common enough with Apple's laptop power
| cables that it has been a meme for more than a decade
| now. That's not the case for _any_ other vendor, and
| those other vendors have sold more laptops than Apple has
| by several orders of magnitude.
| z3ncyberpunk wrote:
| I don't know what you're talking about, but there are
| zero memes about Apple's phone chargers other than the
| ones you're sitting here making up.
| CJefferson wrote:
| If you google image search for "Apple charging cable
| break", you'll find thousands of pictures of broken
| cables.
|
| Do the same for Dell, and one picture out of the first
| page features a broken cable.
|
| The idea that apple charging cables break is something
| lots of people discuss, there are dozens of news stories
| about it too.
| Jarwain wrote:
| I wonder if there's some weird cultural selection bias;
| like the kind of person who purchases an Apple product is
| more likely to make a meme about it vs someone who
| purchases a Dell?
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _like the kind of person who purchases an Apple product
| is more likely to make a meme about it_
|
| I addressed this misunderstanding of the word "meme" in a
| parallel comment.
| Jarwain wrote:
| Could be a lack of clarity on my part. Make it into a
| meme might be more accurate?
|
| I'm not just imagining people making image macros, but
| more likely to talk about or gossip about it, more likely
| to ask other people for help or opinions, more likely to
| pick up on the trend and write about it in some blog or
| article or go on YouTube about it?
|
| I just imagine a Dell laptop to be majority
| provided/owned by a company and so such complaints end up
| going to IT support who ends up swapping it out or
| something. Whereas a Mac is more likely to be owned by
| creative professionals, or journalists, or people more
| generally inclined towards sharing memes in a contagious
| way or otherwise striking a chord in the cultural
| zeitgeist?
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _there are zero memes_
|
| I vouched your dead comment so I could reply. (Am I
| allowed to do this? I don't know!)
|
| Maybe you don't know that the word meme predates image
| macros and even the internet, but it does. The phrases
| "it became a meme" and "people make memes" are not
| talking about the same manifestation. Memes are ideas
| that take root, not funny pictures with words on them.
|
| My assumption is that anyone who reads "became a meme" as
| "people made memes about" must be very young, but that's
| my own bias showing. A person who has no memories of a
| world before philosoraptors and shy penguins or whatever
| image macros kids are making these days might not realize
| the difference, but there it is.
|
| Also...
|
| > _phone chargers_
|
| I actually did say laptops, and the reason I said laptops
| is because people have been complaining about Apple's
| power cables tearing/fraying for longer than Apple has
| been making phones. The problem applies equally well to
| their phone charging cables, of course, but standard
| micro USB cables are also usually complete shit whereas
| standard laptop power cables are not except for Apple's.
| Cederfjard wrote:
| This is an irrelevant side note, but I found it amusing
| that your second Imgur link warned me that it might be
| adult content (spoiler: it's not).
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Weird and hilarious. Is it because of my fingers? Hah, I
| wonder.
| hughrr wrote:
| The bulge is where the cable has been repeatedly knocked or
| compressed into an extreme angle. Of course that will
| happen at the strain relief. It happens on Amazon Basics
| lightning cables, Lenovo laptop power supplies, anything if
| you exceed the min bend radius of the cable.
|
| Regarding dangling it over the edge of the table, you're
| pulling it down. That's one of the problems. It should lay
| flat on the table for a few inches at least and then drop.
|
| I'm sitting here with my M1 MBA on charge at the moment. Is
| it strained? Hell no:
|
| https://imgur.com/a/lXGpj4E
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _Regarding dangling it over the edge of the table, you
| 're pulling it down. That's one of the problems. It
| should lay flat on the table for a few inches at least
| and then drop._
|
| And if you suspend it in zero gravity and never touch it
| then it will last forever. Being able to baby something
| into lasting doesn't make the product durable. The fact
| remains that Apple's cables are demonstrably and notably
| more prone to fraying than every other manufacturer's
| cables even when the same people use them in the same
| way.
| hughrr wrote:
| The old mantra holds: treat it nice or pay twice.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _The old mantra holds: treat it nice or pay twice._
|
| I mean, sure, ok, but there's another mantra that goes
| "nobody likes someone who blames users for product
| quality that is significantly worse than from every other
| manufacturer so that when users use the product normally
| without aggression toward the product this product fails
| while the others do not."
|
| I mean it really seems like you've come down on the side
| that it's totally ok that even simple gravity on just the
| cable itself puts too much unrelieved strain on a cable
| that for decades cost $100 or more to replace because it
| was integrated into the charging brick. And you argue
| that that's a problem with the user instead of grossly
| inadequate strain relief.
|
| We've staked out our sides. Let's agree to disagree.
| hughrr wrote:
| I'm going to leave it at that I used to treat my stuff
| like shit and blamed the manufacturer, mostly IBM and
| Lenovo back then, when it broke. Then I grew up. Life got
| easier and cheaper.
| dirtyid wrote:
| The only cables that ever broke for me with less than 12
| month use has been Apples, which I subject to same treatment
| as other devices, frequently Apple devices weren't even used
| as primary. I've since switched over to universal magnetic
| adapter heads and braided, magnetic charging cables with 90
| degree heads.
| [deleted]
| rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote:
| Strain relief for cables has been a solved problem for
| decades, but Apple intentionally switched to an inferior
| design around 2008 [1] for aesthetic reasons.
|
| [1] https://i.imgur.com/yAywo.jpg
| mfarris wrote:
| I'm extremely careful with my Macbook magsafe charging
| cables. But in ten years I've had three fray into
| uselessness.
|
| My current cable has black electrical tape at both the
| charger block and connector ends. No matter how carefully one
| loops these things before putting them in a bag, the rubbery
| material eventually abrades and cracks.
|
| In contrast, I used Powerbooks for 15+ years and never had a
| single cable go bad.
| [deleted]
| chrismcb wrote:
| So what you are saying is, they are holding it wrong? Sure,
| if you treat almost anything with kids gloves it will last
| forever. But that isn't how people use the product. The
| reality is, the cords from apple are the only ones I've seen
| break like that.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| > So what you are saying is, they are holding it wrong?
|
| People love to dunk on that Jobs quote, but he was right.
| If you took the iPhone 4, wrapped your whole hand around
| it, and squeezed hard, you could make the bars drop. If you
| held like a regular cell phone, it worked fine.
|
| As proof I offer the fact that the iPhone 4 sold very well
| for years, even after Apple ended their free bumper
| program. I had one (sans bumper) and the reception was
| fine.
| simonh wrote:
| Also, the same treatment to all the other major phones of
| the time produced the same results. Samsung phones even
| had a warning in the user manual about it.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| I have the complete opposite experience aligning with the OP.
|
| Out of all the hundreds of cables I've used, only the white
| iPhone cables tend to fail in this manner. In fact, not a
| single white iPhone cable has been spared from this insidious
| fault.
|
| This is a direct unarguable observation for me - how come so
| many other cables I own and use in similar manner don't fray?
| hughrr wrote:
| I'm using the cable that came with my 6s on my 12. There
| was an intermediate XR as well.
|
| The only unarguable thing is the disparity between what
| we're doing.
| SmellTheGlove wrote:
| In fairness, any cable of this style I've bought has failed
| the same way. I have a bunch of generic lightning cables
| that are white, with the little nub of rubber strain relief
| like the genuine cables, and they fail the same way too.
| They look nice, and even on the ones where the insulation
| is torn, I've only had to throw one away for not working at
| all (Apple or generic) of the probably dozen I own.
|
| But I've also recently started buying braided cables to
| replace the Apple/apple-like varieties. The fabric braided
| ones from Monoprice look nice and seem a bit more durable -
| likely because the sleeving is also thicker and you can't
| bend them at sharp angles without feeling like you're doing
| something obviously wrong.
| ksec wrote:
| The iPhone Cables are the only ones that does it without
| some sort of strain relieves, which means they have a far
| higher rate of failure.
|
| I brought Anker PowerLine II and III ( Not the + version )
| for my family and friends and so far apart from one
| connector failure ( Not the cable ), all of them have
| survived the years of usage with no signs of cable damage.
| It is such a relieve knowing your cable should last _years_
| if not decades.
|
| We used to joke apart Apple made the cable so bad because
| they expect us to buy a new iPhone every two years anyway,
| which is when all of our lightning cables somehow failed.
|
| I am also wondering, if it is really that environmental
| friendly to make your cable free of certain material but
| they break 10 times easier and end up so much more in
| landfill. Compare to make one that last literally forever.
| Lightning Cables are sold in hundreds of millions unit a
| year. And Apple earns money and commission from lightning
| chips, connector and MFi.
| stordoff wrote:
| I'm unconvinced. I used a MacBook for about three years
| around 2010, and had to have the charger replaced twice as
| the cable started cracking near the MagSafe connector. The
| third charger started falling apart (insulation yellowing and
| cracking along much of its length) while sat unused in a
| drawer. I've also had two or three Lightning cables fail in a
| similar manner until I switched to Anker cables.
|
| I've only ever had one non-Apple laptop charger break in a
| similar way, and that was after five years of heavy daily
| use. I've never had the insulation break on a micro-USB or
| USB-C cable (I used Windows Phones until I got an iPhone 11).
| If it were entirely due to user behaviour, I wouldn't expect
| to see such a disparity between Apple and non-Apple cables.
| alfalfasprout wrote:
| I agree that for MagSafe cables this is really rare. Granted,
| I haven't had any issues with the USB-C cables ever since
| they switched to them when they came out with the Touch Bar
| MBP.
|
| The lightning cables though... those things seem to break
| super easily. USB-C vs. USB seems to make no difference-- the
| strain relief is pretty terrible. Doesn't help that some of
| these cables get a lot of use (eg; for Apple CarPlay). I've
| found that it's usually the lightning end that goes not the
| other end. I wonder if switching the iPhone to USB-C might
| not help. But at this point it sounds like they're aiming for
| full wireless.
| nemosaltat wrote:
| My wife used to burn through cables. Now, the first thing I do
| when I get a new Apple device is add strain relieve. I don't
| remember where I learned it, but I use the springs out of empty
| "click pens" (think Bic). When a pen runs dry, I take the
| spring out and save it in a small container in the "packet
| drawer." When I get a new cable, I wind a spring around each
| end. It has the added bonus of making the cables easily
| distinguishable as belonging to us.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| This is great! Definitely stealing this idea.
| grawlinson wrote:
| Doesn't this just move the point of strain from the end of
| the connector to the end of the spring? I could be
| mistaken.
| tooltalk wrote:
| can't believe that this is still an issue. Apple Magsafe
| chargers are great and aestherically pleasing if you never move
| around and your Macbook is glued to desk all the time. But like
| most mobile MacBook users, I had similar problems with fraying
| Magsafe 2 charger cables for my rMacBook Pro from 2012 (non-
| USB) -- they had to be replaced almost every year, which was
| insane. One of them also died in flame -- which the Genius
| quietly replacef (for free) -- but the majority died
| unceremoniously due to similar fraying cable issues up until
| 2019. The Magsafe chargers had the lowest user ratings on Apple
| store website until the company decided to remove all user
| reviews a couple of years ago.
|
| Needlessly I really had to part away from Apple products -- the
| first two years were covered by Amex's extended warranty, but
| after that the yearly "upkeep cost" started going up -- as
| there were also other issues with faulty GPU and bluetooth/wifi
| -- and continued until a couple of years ago (largely as a
| backup laptop).
| reader_mode wrote:
| To people saying this is caused by use - this is irrelevant -
| people are upset because they use other comparable cables this
| way and don't have these problems nearly as often. I've noticed
| Apple usually has thinner cables - maybe it's that - frankly
| I'd prefer more robust ones.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| It's not just their cables. Their silicone iPhone cases suffer
| the same fate, sometimes after a year, sometimes after a month,
| just from moving in and out of your pocket. It looks like this:
| https://imgur.com/a/TMDdKNs
| mmebane wrote:
| Ugh, yes. The MagSafe silicone case I bought last fall got
| nicks in the corners within a few months of use, and they've
| been slowly but steadily growing ever since. Supposedly the
| case has a one-year warranty and I can take it in to get
| swapped out, but I haven't tried yet.
| canadianfella wrote:
| I really don't like when people call the employees "Geniuses".
| You don't have to follow the marketing crap. It's worse than
| "Sandwich Artists" at Subway.
| jbay808 wrote:
| Every time this is mentioned, it seems like there are vocal
| factions insisting that they treat the cables gently but they
| split and fray, and others insisting that they abuse them but
| they last forever.
|
| Anecdotally, I've actually seen examples of both.
|
| It's hard to imagine of Apple, but maybe they have high
| variance in cable quality between batches, or multiple
| suppliers?
| stavros wrote:
| I wonder what country each person is from. Maybe they just
| make the cables differently in each region.
| jakear wrote:
| We need a form that asks a bunch of metadata and whether you
| are satisfied with Apple brand cables. Share that widely
| (somehow?) and look for correlations.
|
| The biggest concern is the self selection bias... if you're
| perfectly happy with the cables would you care enough to
| respond to such a survey?
| musicale wrote:
| >such "wear and tear" is not covered under warranty.
|
| Surprising - this same issue has happened to me multiple times
| with multiple power bricks and they replaced them.
|
| The old power brick design would tend to fray and fail at the
| strain relief point.
|
| Fortunately the current USB C power bricks have removable AC
| and USB C cables so they basically eliminated the issue from
| the integrated cable failing at the strain release point.
| kens wrote:
| It's a surprise to see my blog post from nine years ago (!) at
| the top of Hacker News. Anyone have questions about chargers?
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| How does one learn to build such things? Most would say school,
| but I imagine there are particularly good reads out there that
| are more helpful to those driven enough to be autodidacts.
|
| Thank you for such an excellent and digestible article. Such a
| pleasure to read.
| kens wrote:
| I don't know how to build them, just take them apart :-) But
| seriously, there are a lot of books on switching power supply
| design. E.g. Fundamentals of Power Supply Design by Mammano,
| who is "the father of the PWM controller IC industry".
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| Very cool! Thank you!
| cogman10 wrote:
| For something as basic as a charger, an intro to electronics
| course/book is probably good enough. There's more than enough
| youtube videos out there about bridge rectifiers and the
| like.
|
| The charge circuitry here isn't anything too special.
| andrewmcwatters wrote:
| I imagine then that some of the more claimed sophisticated
| elements come from multidisciplinary backgrounds like
| having experience with electronics in noise-sensitive
| circuitry.
| kens wrote:
| It's easy to make a linear power supply, but a switching
| power supply like a charger has a lot of complications.
| Among other things, the layout of the board matters a lot
| due to the high frequencies involved. I'll point out the
| the application note on this controller chip is 34 pages
| long. https://www.st.com/resource/en/application_note/an132
| 6-l6565...
| cogman10 wrote:
| Certainly. My point was more that the basics are pretty
| readily covered in intro electronics courses. Heck, throw
| in a low pass filter or two and you end up with a lot of
| the same required knowledge to make a switching power
| supply.
|
| I agree you won't be able to make an apple quality
| device, it'd just be enough info to understand how one is
| working (Without taking into account things like line
| noise impact on wiring).
| ENOTTY wrote:
| Have you torn down any more recent chargers? Curious if quality
| standards for Apple or other consumer electronics companies
| have held steady, improved, or gotten worse in the 9
| intervening years.
| kens wrote:
| I kind of got bored with chargers and found other projects
| like the Apollo Guidance Computer. My impression is that the
| quality of super-cheap chargers has increased a bit since
| people are paying more attention to safety, but I don't have
| any quantitative data.
| lazide wrote:
| On the practical side, I imagine many chargers even if they
| catch on fire will struggle to cause a large scale fire
| unless they are behind something flammable or the like.
|
| Maybe an idea for a test at some point? Simulate typical
| environments they might be in, blow them up, and see how
| much mayhem they create?
| shoto_io wrote:
| Definitely. I am addicted using the large iPad chargers for
| iPhones. Is this wrong? I am under the imagination that they
| are far superior, i.e. charge faster!
| Jiocus wrote:
| A charger capable of providing higher wattage (energy/second)
| allows a device to charge faster.
|
| By now, device, USB characteristics and battery care services
| determine how much is used.
|
| For example, my Xperia uses extra slow charging every once in
| a while for battery longevity - using the otherwise
| fastcharging adapter.
| Causality1 wrote:
| It would be interesting to get a real expert's explanation of
| how the ways the Nintendo Switch violates the USB
| specifications leads to third party docks sometimes frying
| consoles, or maybe an explanation of how phone manufacturers
| can charge batteries at absurd C rates without killing them.
| deadmutex wrote:
| Would love to see this type of post for framework's power
| adapter: https://frame.work/blog/power-adapter
| kens wrote:
| That's a pretty cool GaN (gallium nitride) charger. I'm
| guessing that it uses the InnoSwitch4-CZ control chip. That
| chip is interesting because instead of having separate chips
| on the primary (high-voltage) and secondary (low-voltage)
| sides of the transformer, they use a single chip that
| contains circuits for both sides. Internally, the two sides
| are isolated and communicate via an inductive coupling link.
| The chip looks very weird because it has a super-wide drive
| pin.
|
| https://www.power.com/sites/default/files/documents/InnoSwit.
| ..
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Would pay to see a Ting electrical system sensor torn down.
|
| https://www.tingfire.com/
| kens wrote:
| My guess is that it has an analog-to-digital converter to
| measure the line voltage at high frequency and a
| microcontroller to analyze the data to look for transients
| that indicate arcing. I found a datasheet for an arc-fault
| detector chip for solar panels which would be similar
| concepts: https://supp.iczoom.com/images/public/20181016/15
| 39670869717...
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Thank you for the reply! It is appreciated.
| xrendan wrote:
| Do you know what the big difference for companies to cram
| enough hardware into the same space to support 20W power like
| Anker [1] Is this just incremental improvements or is there a
| technological breakthrough that's enabled this?
|
| [1] https://us.anker.com/pages/uai2020
| gh02t wrote:
| Some of the new ultra-compact chargers are using switching
| regulators based on GaN transistors, which are a fairly new
| technology. These are more efficient and hence can be smaller
| for the same power envelope. Some of the Anker products use
| these, not sure about the one you linked.
|
| But similar logic applies even for the ones that aren't using
| GaN. More efficient parts and/or designs allowing for more
| and more shrinkage. One of the other big drivers has been
| manufacturers starting to market monolithic chips that manage
| all the aspects of power regulation and USB-PD in a
| single/small number of parts.
| kens wrote:
| It's essentially a technological breakthrough. That charger
| uses GaN (Gallium Nitride) instead of silicon for the
| switching transistors. Gallium Nitride has various
| advantageous properties over silicon (higher bandgap voltage,
| higher breakdown field, faster electron mobility) that make
| it more efficient in chargers.
| jbay808 wrote:
| Do you ever encounter chargers that are AC-coupled (like, a
| transformer at the input), or do they generally all work fine
| from a DC supply?
| kens wrote:
| I don't think anyone has made an AC-coupled phone charger in
| decades since it's way more bulky and expensive. There might
| be some consumer electronics that uses a transformer to get a
| low-voltage AC output, but I can't think of any offhand.
|
| Switching supplies should work from DC, but I don't want to
| give any guarantees. In particular, for a higher-power supply
| with power factor correction, I'm not sure what it does if
| the input isn't AC.
| bredren wrote:
| Thanks for the previous work. I was most interested in your
| prose about the old, recalled Apple charger, where design
| suggested to you someone at Apple was told ~"be sure these
| never can come out again."
|
| Most of the action in chargers right now is in 30 watt USB-C.
| Everyone wants the fasted charge possible.
|
| New iPhones can apparently consume 22 watts plus (via usb-c to
| lightning and macs and iPads (I believe) can pull the full 30
| over an appropriate usb-c.
|
| As a result, when shopping for USB-C chargers, or power strips
| containing USB-C, I study the supply carefully to make sure
| they provide this or if not I'll be happy enough consuming a
| standard wall plug with a 30W adapter.
|
| These adapters seem to have shrunk in the past two years due to
| GaN, or Galium Nitride instead of silicon. (I have not read
| what this means exactly but it is in the marketing copy)
|
| One of the bigger electronics accessory names was the first,
| but now you see no-name brands offering GaN as well.
|
| To my knowledge, Apple has not introduced GaN-based power
| adapters but I could be wrong.
|
| Regardless, it would be very interesting to read a study of
| yours of 30W chargers in this class.
|
| For example, this no name brand is selling two for $20, a very
| low price point: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B098J6LN4Q/
|
| Versus Anker and the other big names which have similar, higher
| priced versions.
|
| I'm presuming the cheap one linked above is likely to set my
| home on fire. But maybe not? You would be the one to speculate.
|
| I'd be happy to fund a portion of the purchases needed for such
| an article. My email is in my profile.
| londons_explore wrote:
| GaN is a type of MOSFET, which is the high power transistor
| at the core of all modern power supplies.
|
| By choosing GaN, the MOSFET can be switched quicker without
| wasting too much energy as heat. That in turn means all other
| components (capacitors, inductors) can be made smaller in the
| same ratio.
|
| The end result is modern GaN technologies allow someone to
| make a 30 watt power supply in the same physical space that a
| 5 watt power supply from 2005 took.
| dudus wrote:
| Any good resource for alternative usbc/iphone chargers that
| don't cost an arm?
|
| I've relied on Benson's reviews in the past for USBC cables,
| but I'd love to have somewhere a list of expertly curated
| products.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AFLICGQRF6BR...
| 404mm wrote:
| You mentioned the interference with touch screens. Long time
| ago I accidentally purchased one Apple power supply from Amazon
| and I assume it was a counterfeit. I remember not being able to
| control the iphone because touches were misaligned and
| generally off. Can you please help me understand what (likely)
| happened?
| kens wrote:
| Cheap chargers can interfere with capacitive touchscreens
| because cheap chargers have a lot of electrical noise in
| their output. This noise gets coupled to the touchscreen and
| causes problems. Specifically, the touchscreen controller
| needs to measure pico-Coulombs of charge which is difficult
| when there are multi-volt spikes coming out of the charger.
| The chip can perform various filtering to deal with this
| noise, but that slows it down. Some touchscreen chips even do
| frequency hopping to avoid the noise (kind of like a military
| radio trying to avoid jamming).
|
| Details here: https://www.cypress.com/file/117656/download
| dang wrote:
| A couple of past threads:
|
| _Apple iPhone charger teardown (2012)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23057091 - May 2020 (71
| comments)
|
| _Apple iPhone charger teardown: quality in an tiny expensive
| package_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3996171 - May
| 2012 (167 comments)
| varispeed wrote:
| > quality in a tiny expensive package (2012)
|
| And then I see cheap Chinese capacitors. Probably other passive
| elements are as cheap as possible.
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