[HN Gopher] Dollar stores make up nearly half of all new store o...
___________________________________________________________________
Dollar stores make up nearly half of all new store openings in the
U.S.
Author : paulpauper
Score : 124 points
Date : 2021-08-02 16:31 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (nextcity.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (nextcity.org)
| mrfusion wrote:
| Isn't dollar tree the only dollar store? Dollar general is just a
| mini Walmart, right. No one dollar prices involved.
|
| Also how weird that a one dollar store can exist in any kind of
| inflationary economy. Prices have doubled from 20-30 years ago,
| right?
| hellotomyrars wrote:
| A brand new Dollar General opened up in my town a few weeks ago.
| They are much cheaper than the two other local outlets on
| anything that they cross over on (frozen foods basically). Prices
| in my local area are very high and it is not an economically
| prosperous area to begin with.
|
| I have visited a few times and while there are a few things it
| would make more sense to purchase there than locally, every other
| checkout interaction was truly awful. It isn't a big deal really,
| and the younger staff there clearly don't have much
| retail/working experience. But I'd rather not have to waste
| several minutes on what should be an in-and-out trying to get the
| cashier to understand that I should be getting substantially more
| back in change than she is trying to give me.
|
| Ultimately I don't actually do much grocery shopping locally
| either way, because the prices are so high that it makes more
| sense for me to go 40 miles to Costco/Wal-Mart or about the same
| distance in the other direction to the Commissary on an AFB once
| a month.
|
| I'd be okay paying a little more to support the local businesses,
| but most things are selling for double or more locally, and that
| is a non-trivial markup for me. So I mostly stock up on
| perishables locally in between big grocery runs.
| mc32 wrote:
| It looks like a couple of things going on:
|
| 1. We have more people without much disposable income (which is
| composed of two populations: poor immigrants with few marketable
| skills, and two, poor Americans left behind due to shipping MFG
| overseas --going on for a while, jump-started by MFN status in
| the 90s).
|
| 2. People want cheap stuff. It's unfortunate. It means more
| disposable crap going into the landfill. Save up and buy
| something that will last. (unfortunately ads don't contribute to
| model behavior here)
|
| 3. Overseas there have always been these cheap goods stores
| (100-goods stores in East Asia (Bai Huo Gong Si )), we're just
| late to the party --however in Asia these popped up because
| people didn't initially have disposable income as their economies
| evolved after ours. They are on the upswing, we're on the down.
| paulpauper wrote:
| iphones are pretty expensive and those go in landfills too
|
| Same as 2008. a lot of ppl left behind in recovery, which
| benefits Walmart and dollar stores.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > Save up and buy something that will last.
|
| Unfortunately, just because somethings costs more doesn't mean
| it will last more. Maybe in the past there were brands that
| prides themselves on durability, but now most of the stuff
| seems not to really consider durability and longevity, and the
| financially smart move might just be to buy the cheapest thing
| that works and plan on replacing it when it breaks.
| mc32 wrote:
| There is something to that. But consider household tools like
| Craftsman (had lifetime warranty). Now Craftsman is cheaply
| made with poor metallurgy and has a limited warranty. People
| will buy that at the HomeDepot. Sure, you can buy more
| reliable brands, but most people like you say won't know
| which ones to buy since many have been shipped overseas.
|
| Furniture is now disposable. Clothing is disposable (even if
| you didn't mind fashion, it will end tattered after a couple
| of seasons. You can still buy excellent clothing, it just
| costs 5x.
| moriarty-s3a wrote:
| This isn't new and your example is a good one. Craftsman
| tools have always been cheaply made with poor metallurgy.
| They got by with the lifetime warranty because they
| marketed themselves at consumers who don't rely on their
| tools and don't use them very often. At least as far back
| as the 1950s and 1960s, people whose job depended on their
| tools wouldn't touch Craftsman.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| To your #3 - in my (US) city there have always been those cheap
| goods stores. There was one in the (2000 person) town I grew up
| in, too. The big change I'm seeing is that the independent,
| mom-and-pop ones are being displaced by major chains.
| zhdc1 wrote:
| > 1. We have more people without much disposable income
|
| In absolute terms, or just on average? This may be the case
| simply because the US population went from 250 to 320 million
| people over that time, but household disposal income is up
| considerably as well.
|
| An alternative answer may be that Dollar stores have very low
| franchise fees (~$50K, from one site I looked at) and low
| inventory costs. This, along with cheap commercial rent, makes
| it an attractive option for non-tech people who want to start a
| retail business but don't have a lot of money saved up.
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| What point is this article trying to make? Dollar Generals and
| Family Dollars are not "dollar stores".
|
| The data doesn't align with their conclusions; the article even
| admits that "Five Below", which are basically toy stores where
| everything is exactly $5, aren't "technically dollar stores", so
| clearly they must know that Dollar Generals and Family Dollars
| aren't either, which makes the whole headline fall apart.
|
| Is this nextcity.org a political advocacy organization or
| something?
| zwieback wrote:
| I've tried to find out the source numbers but can't find them.
| One article says a third, another "nearly half of large chain
| retail stores". It's unclear what the denominator is but I highly
| doubt it's "all new stores" as the linked article claims.
| pasttense01 wrote:
| Exactly. They only look at chains--not the massive number of
| single stores.
| dcveloper wrote:
| Good. I've started purchasing Birthday cards here. I've noticed
| Birthday cards costing 4-6 dollars at grocery stores. They are 50
| cents to a dollar at the Dollar Store. Between family birthdays
| and kid birthdays, I think I spend close to 100-150 dollars a
| year on birthday cards. That's expense is now down to 20 dollars
| from Dollar Store.
| cm2187 wrote:
| Stupid question from someone who doesn't live in the US. Do they
| actually only sell sub-$1 products? It seems they have been
| operating for 30y. Inflation must severely restrict the range of
| products you can offer over such a long time.
| acover wrote:
| No
| jcims wrote:
| No and I think the article is banking on this confusion.
|
| Dollar General is like a micro walmart and stocks the exact
| same stuff for more or less the same prices. They are actually
| great little stores that, around me anyway, service communities
| that would otherwise have to drive 10+ miles to get what they
| need most of the time.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| In some, everything costs exactly $1. But it's more common
| nowadays that they're just selling very inexpensive goods.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| They sell stuff that is cheap but not everything is a dollar.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| Dollar tree used to sell everything for $1: I don't know if
| they still do or not. The products they sell are limited, and
| very, very, _very_ cheap. It is amazing, really.
|
| Dollar General and Family Dollar both sell things over a
| dollar.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Coincidentally, I just heard on news radio this morning that
| Dollar Tree was one of the few, if not the only, still
| sticking to the max $1 per product model.
| ergot_vacation wrote:
| This has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but to
| clarify: the business model used to be "everything (almost) is
| a dollar." Now it has shifted to "Everything is a (seemingly)
| low price, and all prices are rounded off."
|
| The strategy is predatory: You take a product like name-brand
| dish soap, divide it up into smaller containers (but not small
| enough to be obvious!) and presto, your soap is "cheaper" per
| unit, when in reality, you're charging more per oz. Then you
| make it as convenient as possible: more locations that
| Starbucks, nice rounded off prices so customers don't have to
| do math, and so on. The bottom line is that you end up
| profiting by over-charging poor people who either don't realize
| what's happening or have no other viable options.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| > The strategy is predatory: You take a product like name-
| brand dish soap, divide it up into smaller containers (but
| not small enough to be obvious!) and presto, your soap is
| "cheaper" per unit
|
| I'm not sure why this is especially "predatory". It is
| totally normal for smaller quantities of an item to sell for
| a higher unit price.
|
| Wheat is trading for $229.00/metric tonne right now. Loaves
| of bread are selling for about $5.00/kilogram, or
| $5,000/metric tonne. Is that "predatory"?
| NortySpock wrote:
| In addition to the replies you already got, there is a new
| store around here (I'm in the Midwest) called Five Below (with
| cold weather theming), which uses the "dollar store model" but
| for $5 USD or so.
| dwater wrote:
| 30 years ago, maybe 90% of the products in most dollar stores
| were exactly $1. The rest were usually $2, $3, maybe $5, and
| were clearly marked so that the default was if it wasn't
| marked, it was $1. That is no longer the case, now they usually
| operate like regular stores with prices on all the items, and
| they are no longer trying to price items at exactly $1.
| kingaillas wrote:
| Part of the business model is to work with manufacturers to
| offer smaller packaging, i.e. less product, for the same price.
| Consumers are more sensitive to price and not unit price.
|
| Another strategy would be "shrinkflation" (great Planet Money
| coverage on this: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/07/06
| /1012409112/bew...). Over time you'd just sell less stuff for
| the same price point.
|
| But yes, some of the various Dollar stores have left the strict
| $1 product rule.
| mithr wrote:
| Brings to mind Vimes' "'Boots' theory of socioeconomic
| unfairness", from Terry Pratchett's Discworld:
|
| "The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was
| because they managed to spend less money.
|
| Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month
| plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty
| dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK
| for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard
| gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots
| Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that
| he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by
| the feel of the cobbles.
|
| But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A
| man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd
| still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor
| man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred
| dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet."
| thehappypm wrote:
| I know this is fiction, but is it really possible to have boots
| that last 10 years?
| clifdweller wrote:
| a decent pair of redwing boots will run $200-300 and last
| 18-24 months in a job walking daily before needing a resole
| ~150 that can be done 2-3 times. mine that I wear a couple
| times a week I got 18 years ago and have had to do a $50 re-
| heel of them is it. giving them 48 hrs to dry after wearing
| really extends the life of the leather
| thehappypm wrote:
| Thanks for sharing!
|
| If you just bought cheap Walmart boots, you'd probably be
| spending $50 per pair, but need 2 pairs a year (maybe even
| more, but you're not putting a huge amount of wear and
| tear), call it $100/year. Over 18 years that's $1800!
| handrous wrote:
| Also have some a few pair of Redwings Heritage boots. First
| real-leather shoes I bought were some Iron Rangers. I wore
| them as my main shoes for the first year I had them, nearly
| every day. Wore the absolute hell out of them. They still
| come out many times a year, and I treat them _as work
| boots_ , so they get things dropped on them, I sit on the
| floor and crush them side-down for long stretches, et c. I
| also wore them up a couple mountain trails in the
| Appalachians maybe three years back, one a pretty damn long
| and high-elevation-change trail ( _do not_ do this, they
| are heavy as fuck compared to any modern hiking boot or,
| especially, shoe, it was a very bad idea) which beat them
| up plenty.
|
| "Camp mocs", chukkas, and loafers have replaced them for
| everyday wear, for me, but that first pair of IRs still see
| some of my hardest-wearing days, probably 20-30 days a
| year.
|
| Given the rate of wear for the ~2 years when I wore them
| very heavily, I'd say I could have gotten 5-8 years without
| babying them a bit (with a re-soling around year 4,
| probably). With my current usage pattern I expect they'll
| last about 20, with a re-soling at some point. If a person
| used shitty work boots for the _really_ rough days to avoid
| abusing the expensive boots, and maybe kept some purpose-
| specific shoes for things like snow, heavy rainy weather
| (duck boots in both cases, perhaps), or hiking (god, just
| get a modern hiking shoe or boot, leather shoes are _so_
| heavy), 10 years of ~50%-of-days wear is very possible out
| of that boot style, I 'd say. That may even be on the low
| side.
| asguy wrote:
| I've had that happen. I burn through heels, and need a resole
| every 3 or so, depending on use. Also a secret weapon is shoe
| trees. They keep away funk, and also seem to help the shoe
| last longer.
| odiroot wrote:
| Probably, if you take good care of them and most importantly
| avoid wearing them every single day. Leather shoes need
| resting periods.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| I would give 50 upvotes if I could for the Pratchett reference.
|
| And a good explanation to boot.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| And I would give 50 downvotes if I could.
|
| The only thing that quote is good for this century is letting
| upscale consumers pat themselves on the back. Goods are so
| much cheaper than when that quote was written that using
| cheaper alternatives and treating them as disposable is often
| times cheaper in the long run for many classes of goods and
| usage patterns.
|
| These sorts of tropes and rules of thumb that have been
| stripped of all nuance and packaged up nice and neatly so
| that the lowest common denominator consumer on the internet
| can read, understand and press the up-vote button are good
| for little more than achieving said upvotes. When subject to
| the complexities of real life they are wrong as often as they
| are right. You may as well toss a coin. There are
| unfortunately no rules of thumb you can follow that will
| outperform even a minimal application of critical thought.
| Jiro wrote:
| I also read a partial rebuttal which amounted to "Rich
| people pay less because they can buy more durable boots,
| but they also pay more because they buy fancier boots, and
| the increased expense from buying fancier boots is more
| than the savings from the boots lasting longer."
|
| There's also the question of why the poor person doesn't
| take out a loan to buy the more expensive boots, and pay
| off the loan with the money that he saves from not having
| to continually buy pairs of cheaper boots. Many poor people
| still have credit cards, and even the ones who don't can
| often trade favors or get loans from relatives.
|
| And even the response "they should save up for the boots"
| isn't obviously wrong. For obvious reasons it's hard for
| poor people to save, but how often is it so hard that
| something like this isn't possible?
| ketzo wrote:
| Okay, the quote might not be literally true for boots (or
| many consumer goods) in 2021, but it's a good intuitive
| explanation of why it's quote-unquote "expensive to be
| poor," which is absolutely a meaningful and important idea
| to understand.
| jcims wrote:
| It's not clear to me what the problem is that the article is
| outlining.
|
| The Dollar General near me has the exact same brands as you would
| find in any larger retail establishment, they just have found a
| way to stock the 80% that folks typically need. They are filling
| a niche between the gas station convenience store and traditional
| grocery/big box retail. They don't have a produce section, just a
| bit of fruit. Is that the issue?
|
| Are the small independent grocery stores in these communities
| stocking produce? Is Dollar General and the like creating some
| kind of price cartel that's putting them out of business? I know
| of two Dollar Generals near me, one in a small one-light town
| that previously only had a gas station convenience store and
| people had to drive 12 miles to get anything besides milk,
| condoms and beef jerky. The other on the outskirts of a small
| town that still has a thriving small grocery store in the middle
| of it.
| ApolloFortyNine wrote:
| I have the same experience with dollar generals, they tend to
| go in places where the only "competition" was driving further.
| And their prices tend to me pretty good, it's almost like a
| mini Walmart.
|
| Putting "dollar" in the name makes everyone think of the dollar
| trees (everything $1), so I guess the author wants this to be a
| bit of a commentary on how this is catering to the poor
| possibly? But the other chains are essentially just well
| stocked stores. Who doesn't want to shop somewhere that's both
| convenient and cheap?
| difu_disciple wrote:
| When you see a dollar store, odds are that:
|
| - it is newly built. Building a dollar store is a fairly cheap
| way to raise the value of undeveloped land so some land owners
| use them as an exit strategy for declining communities.
|
| - likely in an odd location, compared to other stores. The
| developers asked an inexperienced city council to rezone non-
| commercial land to approve the new build.
|
| Dollar stores wouldn't be as much of an issue if they leased
| existing commercial space but this rarely happens.
|
| Sub-optimal land usage can lower the chances of a depressed
| community from ever rebounding.
| blendergeek wrote:
| The real issue is that all value created by the likes of Dollar
| General leaves the community. If the owner of the store is in
| the community, those dollars will more likely be spent withing
| the community. The increased tax value on the owner's home will
| be in the community. With Dollar General, all of that leaves.
|
| Nobody in a Dolllar General is making much more than the
| proprietors of the old local store were making. Yet, their
| prices are cheaper. Why? Because Dollar General is taking a
| cut.
|
| This may seem better to the local community at first (lower
| prices means more money in their pockets) yet this money is
| leaving the community forever. With the local grocery store,
| money flowed in circles, now Dollar General is extracting what
| value is in the community until the community dies.
| toast0 wrote:
| The margin may have flowed in circles, but grocery margins
| are low, so most of the money leaves the community anyway.
|
| A community needs a way to import money, not just a way to
| export less. That could be a locally owned store, but only if
| it's attractive enough to get clients outside of its
| community.
| shagmin wrote:
| I don't think Dollar General is the bad guy so much as a
| symptom of a problem. As it is, they're often in low income
| areas and have a high markup. Grocery stores have low margins
| that prevent them from entering these markets (hence food
| deserts). Dollar General fills that niche - but as a result low
| income people who already spend a disproportionate amount of
| their income on groceries have to pay that higher markup as
| well. Meanwhile I can go to Trader Joe's or something and get
| much better stuff, cheaper too.
|
| I remember living in a rural area where people couldn't afford
| a car, but could walk to a gas station and pay 3x the prices on
| everything compared to if they bought everything at grocery
| store - it just helps keep them poor. And often, I think people
| see "dollar" in the name, and think that automatically means
| cheap, but being poor doesn't mean being financially literate.
|
| If people weren't segregated into rich areas | poor areas, or
| maybe grocery stores found some other way to be profitable in
| low income areas, or some other thing, this wouldn't be such a
| problem. But as it is right now, they are filling a need,
| granted with negative side effects.
|
| Edit: I realize the article focuses more on Dollar Generals
| causing food desserts, rather than being a response to them.
| Guess I'm focusing on more what I've seen.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| outside of 'food deserts', there may be other factors people
| shop at DG. There's one a block from my office, and I drop in
| there now and then to get stuff (snacks, or light bulbs, or
| whatever). Almost every time I'm in there, I'll see an older
| person doing what seems to be a weekly shop (or more) -
| they'll ring up $70+ of stuff - canned/packaged foods.
| Clearly stuff for meals. They then get in to a taxi or
| rideshare car and are driven away.
|
| .7 miles from here - in a more convenient area to drive to,
| is a Lidl, with everything that person bought about 40%
| cheaper. 1 mile away there's a Wegmans. 1.4 miles away
| there's Target, Lowes, and Harris Teeter. All just as
| accessible via taxi/uber as this DG.
|
| The only real thing I can think of in DG's favor is it's very
| easy in/out - there's 2 counters, no self-checkout, the store
| is small itself. Just walking around to find what you want in
| those other stores would take 3-4x as long as hitting the 6
| aisles in DG.
|
| But... they're paying a terribly high price for that little
| bit of convenience. There's been a couple of times I've
| wanted to tell that person "hey, you can save $20 or more by
| driving another 3 minutes down the street" but I doubt it
| would be welcomed. I can't think of a way to intrude that
| isn't intrusive or patronizing. :/
| chromaton wrote:
| Strike up a conversation. People do like talking about
| where to shop for the best bargains. "Hey, does this place
| have a good deal on X? I usually buy that at Lidl."
| thehappypm wrote:
| It's really hard to spend $70 at a real grocery store,
| isn't it? I feel like just a small number of items suddenly
| you're $100+. You certainly can't buy $1 batteries or light
| bulbs.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Granted, I'm shopping for myself, but buying goods for
| only a week or two out I don't feel like I spend $70.
|
| If you go to a bulk store like Costco it certainly adds
| up. I don't go to those places because I can never use
| the stuff up fast enough before it goes bad.
| thehappypm wrote:
| Costco is a great place to buy non-perishables, dry
| goods, and stuff you can freeze the excess of. I agree
| it's hard to eat the fresh stuff but then again I don't
| have a family.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| If I had the room for it it might make more sense, but
| alas I live in an apartment and can't store 12 paper
| towel rolls.
| vasco wrote:
| > I can't think of a way to intrude that isn't intrusive or
| patronizing. :/
|
| Because it is, people can spend their money however they
| like and they can value convenience or have any other
| reason to shop there. Also being old doesn't make them
| incapable of deciding where to shop.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| when you see someone being told "this is $76" and they
| only have $70, and they have to decide - while I'm
| waiting behind them - what to put back... the thought of
| telling them "it's 40% cheaper 1 mile from here" crosses
| my mind. This exact scenario has played out in front of
| me 3 times in 2021.
| Noos wrote:
| And they tell you that they went there but the parking
| lot is too big, the carriages are too hard to push, they
| can't really stand in line a lot because their knee hurts
| them, and more.
|
| I don't think people understand that sometimes your body
| makes savings not a savings. You don't miss good health
| till its gone, or the ability to do things with it.
| ahallock wrote:
| I see these springing up in economically depressed areas--that
| and those check-cashing and payday loan businesses.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| I thought the whole point of complaining about dollar stores
| was to mask concern for your property values and callousness to
| the impoverished as compassion. It struck me as more dog-
| whistle than any coherent non-cynical logic. "We don't want to
| get rid of the poor, just cheap stores. To help them!"
| handrous wrote:
| One weird thing I've noticed about Dollar General is that they
| seem to get special versions of many products. Like sizes of
| food items/containers that I've never seen _anywhere_ else.
|
| I wonder if there are other differences in what they're
| shipped. Like how "outlet stores" get shittier versions of
| brand-name clothes.
| jasonhansel wrote:
| IIRC, there are two primary reasons why dollar stores are
| cheaper:
|
| 1. Dollar stores do (as you say) offer products in much
| smaller sizes. This isn't necessarily bad for consumers: if
| you don't have the money to pay for extra product, it's to
| your benefit to shop at a store that lets you buy in smaller
| increments.
|
| 2. Dollar stores have no fixed inventory. They buy whatever
| brand is the cheapest at any given time, rather than trying
| to stock the same brands consistently. This leads to them
| often having unusual versions of products that aren't
| available elsewhere.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| When dollar stores replace grocery stores in a community it
| reduces the quality of nutrition available. Potential vicious
| cycle there. Economic downturn --> worse nutrition -> decline
| in mental and physical health of community -> more downturn
| mumblemumble wrote:
| There's a part of me that wants to push back against this
| idea that fresh produce is synonymous with good nutrition.
|
| Frozen produce - which the dollar stores in my area do carry
| - tends to be more nutritious nowadays. It is also much
| easier to prepare, and, assuming you have access to a
| freezer, is less susceptible to spoilage.
|
| And if your food preparation options don't amount to much
| more than a microwave oven, or you simply don't have the time
| to do a lot of cooking, the frozen dinners that these types
| of stores sell might be one of the healthiest meal options
| you have.
|
| Which isn't to say that food deserts are necessarily a good
| thing. I used to live in one and it was awful. But I do want
| to at least consider the possibility that the reason that
| these stores get a lot of business is that they are better
| serving the actual needs of their clientele. If that's the
| case, then perhaps the way forward is not to try and force
| everyone back to the old stores they probably did have a
| reason to not be shopping at anymore, so much as to try and
| figure out new things that suit their needs even better.
| freemint wrote:
| > There's a part of me that wants to push back against this
| idea that fresh produce is synonymous with good nutrition.
|
| Whether the causality chain is over fresh produce or not.
| It is established fact that when a dollar store causes the
| close local grocers the nutrition and health of the local
| population suffers. On source for that would be Dr. Barry
| Popkin from University of North Carolina in this interview
| by CBS Monday morning
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtAvJBAJfnE
| [deleted]
| tspike wrote:
| It's worth pointing out the difference between frozen
| produce (which, as you say, is nutritionally sound) and
| frozen TV dinners, which often contain multiple times the
| daily recommended intake of sodium and typically have
| miniscule portions of vegetables.
| tpmx wrote:
| > which often contain multiple times the daily
| recommended intake of sodium
|
| https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/its-time-to-
| end-t...
|
| Classic article.
|
| _It 's Time to End the War on Salt - The zealous drive
| by politicians to limit our salt intake has little basis
| in science_
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Sure. But, if you lack the ability to make good use of
| frozen produce, then that maybe isn't a realistic option,
| anyway. Then you might be looking at something more like
| a choice between TV dinner and McDonald's.
| nicoburns wrote:
| How can you have the ability to cook a frozen TV dinner,
| but the not to ability to cook frozen vegetables?
| mumblemumble wrote:
| I specifically chose the phrase "make good use of" over
| the word "cook" because it's an important distinction.
|
| Nobody can make a decent meal exclusively out of frozen
| vegetables; there just aren't enough macronutrients
| there. And everyone wants their meals to be appetizing.
| So it's not just about whether or not you can make frozen
| vegetables hot, it's about whether or not you can
| feasibly incorporate them into a nutritionally complete
| and appetizing meal.
|
| Also, with TV dinners, you can buy just tonight's dinner
| on the way home from work, heat it up as soon as you get
| home, and have nothing left over to store. So, even
| though the food is frozen, there's no need to own a
| working freezer. With frozen vegetables, unless your meal
| plans typically involve eating half a pound of Normandy
| blend in one sitting, not so much.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Also, if you're time poor, you may not have time to
| actually cook or meal prep. Working multiple low income
| jobs is not uncommon, and those jobs often tend to have
| very erratic schedules that you can't plan around.
| (Usually around limiting your hours below 30, so that the
| health insurance requirement does not kick in.)
| freemint wrote:
| I found quiet revelaing that a Dollar store in a pre
| announced shoot with a TV station couldn't show any more
| produce than is to be seen in this shot
| https://youtu.be/GtAvJBAJfnE?t=389
|
| Also the Chet's grocery shown in this report had to be
| saved by community action in the face of the competition.
| https://siouxcityjournal.com/news/local/kingsley-grocery-
| sto...
| jcims wrote:
| Nutrition available =/= nutrition consumed. If there was a
| large market for produce someone would seek to fill
| it...minimally with produce stands/farmers markets/etc.
| tshaddox wrote:
| It's always odd to me to throw Dollar General into the same
| category as Dollar Tree.
|
| Dollar Tree is an actual "dollar store" where literally every
| item costs $1. Dollar Tree's items are generally no-name
| discount brands that wouldn't be found in big grocery store
| chains, or familiar brands in unique very small packages.
|
| Dollar General, at least in the two parts of the US I've seen
| them in (areas of California and the Midwest), is as you
| describe: something between a convenience store and a
| traditional grocery store sans produce. They have all the
| normal big brands: Oreos, Doritos, etc. in the normal package
| sizes at what seemed to me to be normal grocery store prices.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Aren't Dollar Tree and Dollar General owned by the same
| company?
| nimbius wrote:
| >They don't have a produce section, just a bit of fruit. Is
| that the issue?
|
| 42% of the united states is overweight. nearly 20% of children
| are obese. dollar stores could be seen to directly undermine US
| health policy by displacing larger grocery stores and
| encouraging unhealthy consumption of overprocessed foods high
| in sugar salt and fat. "filling a niche" is an idea the
| marketing department came up with to justify selling garbage.
|
| the lack of access to food (food deserts) and a healthy
| balanced diet are direct contributors to obesity and its myriad
| of comorbidities. They disproportionately affect people of
| colour and low income communities, and have been correlated
| with income inequality and the wealth gap across racial
| boundaries as well.
|
| unpopular opinion: the "wealthy" version of the dollar store is
| Trader Joes in that both cater to the american "idea" of
| cooking food moreso than actually preparing a meal. Both rely
| on processed and frozen offerings of sugar salt and fat that
| present a reconstituted/reheated 'cooking' experience as
| opposed to actual cookery involving fresh ingredients and
| thoughtful planning. many people have a favourite product at
| these places, but few people can conceive of a favourite recipe
| they assemble from ingredients sourced at either.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| The problem as I understand it is that products aren't priced
| in a grocery store to all have the same margin.
|
| So the prepared foods and toiletries get marked up to make up
| for low margins on fresh fruit. Wealthier customers are fine
| with this as they want to not have to make two trips and they
| will pay for the fruit.
|
| Dollar stores ditch the fresh stuff and just take a lower
| margin on the toiletries and prepared food to make up for it,
| resulting in lower prices. A bit of extra savings matters more
| to poor people, so they shift those purchases to the dollar
| store. The grocery store's business model fails.
| rootsudo wrote:
| I think the argument is that these are the only options in
| certain areas, so it's marked up higher than grocery stores.
|
| I think many people on HN have not been in a dollar store,
| not all sell for a "dollar" like Dollar Tree. Dollar General
| and such usually have a "larger" markup on basic goods.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The root problem is the populace being too poor to afford
| fresh fruit. Blaming dollar stores is a waste of time.
| freemint wrote:
| If we have a semi functional system and a change made to it
| worsens the populations health it is more reasonable to
| stop this change and reverse over hoping for revolutionary
| change.
|
| If some company has a buisness model that has negative
| externalities they should be taxed more for it. When taxing
| is not responsible because this would hit the poor
| dispropoertionally the buisness model should be banned.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| It would be much easier and less corruption prone to just
| enact wealth transfers, especially via giving people more
| education opportunities and enhancing labor laws to allow
| time to invest in one's self.
| protomyth wrote:
| Well, Walmart's produce isle is cheaper than most prepared
| food. I would say that a lot of people don't buy it because
| of inconvenience not price.
| handrous wrote:
| Spoilage if you don't eat it fast, which is part of the
| convenience factor you mention. Harder to protect fresh
| fruit & veggies from pests, than anything in a sealed
| package, which I think is a factor that doesn't get
| enough attention. _And_ the smell of them will attract
| more pests. Once you 're out of precious fridge space,
| assuming your fridge is well-functioning and its seals
| are intact enough to keep pests out, you'll need extra,
| reusable containers that seal to protect anything else...
| which can lead to even faster spoilage, with lots of
| fruits and veggies.
|
| Meanwhile, the store-brand pop tarts can deliver 2,000
| calories/day for like $3, and come with sealed-per-
| serving packaging. Sure, they'll give you diabetes and
| malnutrition, but....
| MattGaiser wrote:
| What I want to know is whether it actually changes fresh
| food consumption all that much.
|
| The food desert discussion is about availability.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| In rural areas there's also competition from the Farmer's
| Market/roadside stalls. Especially during the summer.
| freemint wrote:
| > They don't have a produce section, just a bit of fruit. Is
| that the issue?
|
| Yes, it is as produce is a group of products that a better
| margin than produce (and produce spoils easier). By comming
| into an market and serving produce any other store is put at an
| disadvantage if they sell produce. This leads to "food
| deserts", places where you can not find healthy, affordable
| food.
|
| > Are the small independent grocery stores in these communities
| stocking produce?
|
| If there are any, they are worried. If you have 7 minutes this
| video by VICE from 2018 explains some of the concerns.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6IqsG-Iiik There are also
| community actions against dollar stores such as here
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vLWTkBQWP0 This CBS reports
| about grocers being closed due dollar stores moving into towns
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtAvJBAJfnE drawing parallels
| to Walmart killing mainstreets
|
| > Is Dollar General and the like creating some kind of price
| cartel that's putting them out of business?
|
| By serving only non produce goods a competing store which
| previously was able to carry produce and was able to bear this
| expense due non-produce sales will see reduced non-produce
| sales leading to worse financial performance and possibly
| clousure or a slow death while loosing customer to dollar
| general.
|
| > previously only had a gas station convenience store and
| people had to drive 12 miles
|
| This is an improvement for those people, good.
| rurp wrote:
| I haven't looked at this enough to have a strong opinion on
| dollar stores in general, but it strikes me that the 20% of
| grocery products they don't stock (ie. produce) are the things
| that most people consume too little of.
| axaxs wrote:
| They are often criminally understaffed, and get away with lower
| prices as a result. Added to that their shear size, they are
| able to purchase in bulk cheaper. Which shuts down locally run
| things, because they can't compete without breaking the law in
| turn with somehow more abhorrent labor practices.
|
| There was recently a video about a lady who worked at Dollar
| Tree for just a short time before quitting. I posted a link
| below, but it's kinda long so I'll summarize. She basically
| wasn't allowed to take breaks, and had to find her manager to
| ask permission to get a drink of water. In Florida heat. It was
| pretty heartbreaking.
|
| https://youtu.be/Jkfjlo3VFcs
| safog wrote:
| After a couple of levels of indirection, I think the whole
| argument hinges on one anecdote. It might indicate a general
| pattern, but no actual authoritative sources back it up.
|
| Original Article quotes
|
| "growing evidence suggests these stores are not merely a
| byproduct of economic distress. They're a cause of it. In small
| towns and urban neighborhoods alike, dollar stores are
| triggering the closure of grocery stores, eliminating jobs, and
| further eroding the prospects of the vulnerable communities
| they target"
|
| This links to a report here as a source:
| https://ilsr.org/dollar-stores-factsheet/
|
| Which cites
| https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/13/dollar-gene...
| as its only source.
|
| The actual quote:
|
| ""We lasted three years and three days after Dollar General
| opened," he said. "Sales dropped and just kept dropping. We
| averaged 225 customers a day before and immediately dropped to
| about 175. A year ago we were down to 125 a day. Basically we
| lost 35 to 40% of our sales. I lost a thousand dollars a day in
| sales in three years.""
| [deleted]
| xwolfi wrote:
| That's why, when you're a grocery store, you should stay a
| bit on top and join DG. I would even expect them to ask if
| you want to franchise with your existing clients.
|
| My dad has such a small business, that was struggling under
| threat of potential new regulation to increase competition:
| he joined a big national franchise, destroyed the other
| stores and now HE is the big store. Maybe some of the same
| business will have to close, but the clients are happy
| because prices dropped, my dad can keep his 5 employees and
| push towards retirement with a valuable business to resell,
| and the regulator will be happy to see that not only big
| malls will survive their liberalization attempt.
|
| The only people who lost are people who sat on their hands,
| looked at the sky in angst and complained people outside the
| village are coming to change things...
| sokoloff wrote:
| Dollar General comes in and offers local consumers a bargain
| that local consumers strongly prefer. Accordingly, local
| consumers vote with their feet.
|
| Unless the master plan is to run competitors out of town and
| then change to "Two Dollar General", it seems like Dollar
| General is good for consumers (at least if you judge by
| consumers' own revealed preferences).
| frozenport wrote:
| Then my taxes pay for the people that got sick trying to
| survive off Dollar General.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| This is indeed the master plan; DG will flood an area with
| conveniently located stores, drive out the bodegas and
| grocery stores, then close DG stores to reduce redundancy
| (and leave the existing stores to rot). The result are food
| deserts that encompass inner city neighborhoods where the
| only thing you can find to eat is hyper-processed and comes
| from a box.
|
| Dollar General is at the crossroads of a bodega and a
| grocery store: it's way better than the bodegas despite not
| being much more expensive, but it also replaces enough
| grocery store trips that grocery stores are no longer
| economically viable.
| greedo wrote:
| My father-inlay lives in a small town of roughly 2k. The
| local grocery store continually goes out of business
| since it can't compete with the Walmart and national
| grocery store that's roughly 15 miles away. In the winter
| time, that's can be a pain to drive.
|
| So he's had to rely upon the two local gas stations, and
| their meager and overpriced groceries much of the time.
| DG opened up last year in town, and now he has a much
| better place to shop. The store also pays better than the
| gas stations. I think it's a win win.
|
| And can you point to where I can read about DG's "master
| plan?"
| handrous wrote:
| > the only thing you can find to eat is hyper-processed
| and comes from a box.
|
| Maybe my area's DGs are atypical, but their selection of
| food that doesn't fit this description is barely better
| than a decent gas station's. If your only option is a DG
| then you may already be in that situation, without their
| needing to close the store to make it happen.
| kktkti9 wrote:
| These places exacerbate material waste and trivial
| spending.
|
| Dollar objects get replaced much faster than better quality
| objects.
|
| They're manipulating that "new purchase" high similar to
| Facebook juicing us via likes.
| milsorgen wrote:
| This is absolutely true but if you pay attention you can
| save money. Make a cheap lunch for work, gift bag for a
| birthday, quick emergency repair but just as much you see
| people spending 30 bucks on a bucket load of crap. Its
| really on the consumers shoulders to maximize the utility
| of their retail options. But that takes time and effort
| and all of us only have so much if any effort to give. I
| mean is it better to spend ten minutes to save a dollar
| or save ten minutes and spend an extra dollar?
| HeckFeck wrote:
| > They're manipulating that "new purchase" high similar
| to Facebook juicing us via likes.
|
| Very aptly put. I've been captive to their charm and can
| verify there is a certain dopamine thrill that quickly
| vanishes after the subpar goods are brought home and
| inspected.
|
| These phantom brand dumps invariably smell of cheap
| plastic dust. That tragic scent fits the gloomy
| foreboding that such places bring, and should also ward
| off would-be entrants. It is a literal air of
| hopelessness. I miss real shops and solid kit.
| arrosenberg wrote:
| It's not really great for them when they leave the store
| and go back to being citizens of their communities. The
| dollars they just spent aren't being reinvested by the
| local owner, they're going to a private equity firm based
| in New York. That's pretty clearly extractive, rather than
| being a mutually beneficial relationship.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| As opposed to my local Walmart, or Kroger?
| nradov wrote:
| Most grocery stores are also chains not opened by locals.
| arrosenberg wrote:
| I wasn't arguing in favor of the current system, but
| against running further ahead in the race to the bottom.
| greedo wrote:
| Nonsense. The wages paid to employees are kept local, as
| is any sales tax.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| And that private equity firm is largely made up of
| capital from pension funds, charitable endowments, and
| university endowments.
|
| Dollars leaving the community is a _good_ thing. Those
| dollars don't just go into a black hole. They go to other
| towns. And some of those towns' dollars come to our town.
|
| That allows all of us to diversity our risk across
| geographic areas. I'd much rather own a small slice of
| grocery stores in 1000 towns across the country than a
| large share of the grocery store down the street.
| inetknght wrote:
| > _Dollars leaving the community is a good thing. Those
| dollars don't just go into a black hole. They go to other
| towns. And some of those towns' dollars come to our
| town._
|
| Trickle-down economics failed the U.S. before and will
| fail us again. Trickle-down economics are a lie sold by
| the mega-rich.
| rurp wrote:
| I suspect the correlation between shopping at dollar
| stores and having significant investment fund exposure is
| a lot lower than you're implying.
| nicoburns wrote:
| What is good for consumers may not be good for communities
| though. I'd argue that there is significant harm
| perpetuated on economies by the migration of wealth away
| from wages and small-scale profits of local businesspeople
| into the profits of large companies.
| temp_account002 wrote:
| That's a common refrain for "buy local", but is that
| always true? It seems to depend on many assumptions...
|
| 1) That the local business owner will invest back into
| the community, more than the chain store would have.
| Sure, some of that revenue will go towards employees,
| local sales tax, charitable donations, etc., but the same
| could be said of the chain store. The rest of the
| profit... what's to stop the local owner from
| accumulating savings in a national bank, or investing in
| out of area stocks, crypto, etc.? Unless they were
| thinking of expanding/franchising their store, their
| actual investments (as opposed to costs) may or may not
| be in the local economy vs whatever has the highest ROI.
|
| 2) That the local consumers who saved money from the
| chain store wouldn't simply spend that money at other
| local businesses. Let's say the chain store saves 1000
| customers $10 each, that's $10k of unspent money that
| could be organically used at other businesses, vs that
| $10k being funneled into the control of a single small-
| business owner who might just invest it elsewhere. On
| average, there's probably a higher chance of 1000
| customers spending at least SOME of that money locally
| than that one local business owner deciding to.
|
| 3) Small local businesses typically do not have the
| economies of scale that benefit pricing and processes,
| which means they don't have the same margins, which means
| they might not be able to afford good wages & benefits
| for their staff, or have to pass on those costs in the
| form of higher prices for local consumers (who then have
| less money to spend on other businesses).
|
| 4) Most market goods are fungible and UPCed and
| distributed across the whole country anyway, whereas
| things like schools and real estate are strictly
| local/geographical. Money consumers save can be spent on
| their own immediate family needs, building community by
| allowing them to afford actual roots instead of just
| shopping local and supporting that one small business
| owner.
|
| 5) Small businesses tend not to have a very diverse labor
| force (in terms of skill sets), especially if they're
| retail. That means the local labor pool has limited
| employment options beyond low-end service jobs.
| Especially in a post-COVID employment landscape, large
| digital-savvy companies probably offer a more realistic
| pathway out of rural poverty (i.e. people can learn
| skills, work for remotely for one, but stay local). The
| small local mom-and-pops can only very rarely offer that
| to local residents... maybe they contract a local print
| shop or two, but rarely do they employ full-time
| marketers, designers, artists, coders, architects,
| sustainability people, etc.
|
| Basically the whole "buy local" argument seems to stem
| from the idea that your money is better in the hands of a
| small business owner than Jeff Bezos's pockets. Maybe
| that's true in some statistical sense, but it also misses
| the savings that YOU keep and can spend how you see fit,
| including investing in your community in actual, non-
| trivial ways (employment, real estate, schools, local
| government, marriage, etc.). Buy local might be good for
| local business owners, but I don't think it's necessarily
| good for local consumers or local communities. I'd be
| happy to see data showing otherwise though...
| jimhefferon wrote:
| Here is a wild guess: a new kind of store sells only the
| top, say, 50% of items in terms of sales numbers, and sells
| them for a little less. People out shopping for things all
| from that group go there. But everybody needs the bottom
| 50% sometimes, and when they do, that store is no longer
| around.
| ApolloFortyNine wrote:
| This was a better argument before the internet. Nowadays
| I don't think it's worth paying a 30% markup on
| everything so that one thing you sometimes want is always
| within driving distance.
|
| At the end of the day people shop where it's convenient
| and cheap, with a bit of a tradeoff between those too.
| Some people like spending more at a locally owned place,
| but most would rather pocket that extra cash.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| It seems like, if this sort of thing is actually happening,
| then, when we strip away all the specifics, which seem to
| be a bit emotionally charged, we're left with a clean
| little fable about capitalism?
|
| "A long time ago, there was one store, and prices were
| high. Then a second store came to town, and prices were
| low. Eventually, one of the stores closed, so now we have
| one store again, and prices are high."
| sokoloff wrote:
| I think it's the last step that's not happening here. DG
| comes in, outcompetes the less efficient alternatives,
| and then stays DG for the long-run. IMO, making the
| consumers in the community better off.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Perhaps, though there is that thing about local business
| keeping the money local to contend with.
|
| At the same time, I'm not convinced we can just assume
| that to be the case. When a new grocery store in the
| neighboring town came and put the IGA out of business, my
| friends were also comparing notes and noticing that the
| new store paid better than the old one. And offered some
| things locally where we previously had to drive all the
| way into the city to get them.
|
| I'm just not convinced these kind of situations can all
| be neatly fit into a single, straightforward narrative.
| jcims wrote:
| >Perhaps, though there is that thing about local business
| keeping the money local to contend with.
|
| I'd say this is to be proven. People that own businesses
| in broke areas (which is what we're talking about here,
| no?) are also likely to invest their money in expanding
| their company in other broke areas, personal financial
| investments and their children's education.
|
| I live in a relatively rural community where the public
| schools actually do quite academically when compared
| across the entire state and we would get families moving
| into the community because of the excellent care we
| provide to developmentally disabled kids. Unfortunately
| the vast majority of people I know that went to college
| moved out of town and is now generating tax revenue
| elsewhere.
| Retric wrote:
| Dollar general does frequently have a high markup in poor
| communities without alternatives. It's for lack of a better
| term poverty optimized which counterintuitively isn't about
| the lowest cost per pound of flour etc.
| sokoloff wrote:
| If Dollar General is not in that neighborhood that has
| limited choice (or DG closes down/pulls out), is that
| community made better or worse? I think it's made worse.
| kennywinker wrote:
| Well if the choice is nothing or DG, of course everyone
| is going to pick DG. And you're right that's the choice
| many communities are facing. But it wouldn't take much
| tweaking at a policy level (civic, state, federal) to
| change that equation and bring business that actually
| support the community (jobs, high-nutrition and more
| local products, a venue for community building events,
| etc). The fact that the choice is DG or nothing is the
| problem, not DG itself.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| In my neighborhood at least, the closure of the only
| affordable grocery store led to a number of people
| selling produce on the street corner out of the back of
| pickup trucks. This is in the middle of a major city the
| US northeast.
| greedo wrote:
| What policy changes would "fix" the problem you're
| portraying? I see nothing simple, and definitely nothing
| that would just be a tweak to existing policies.
| kennywinker wrote:
| Well, i'm not in the local grocery business, but some
| avenues i would explore are: tariffs on importing mostly
| single use soon-to-be-trash from china - something that
| would cut into their business model in a big way. Decent
| antitrust to prevent some of the monopolistic practices
| that mean DG and Walmart can get better deals from
| distributors. Requiring a livable wage for the one or two
| cashiers might be enough, honestly. I'm sure there are
| plenty of others i'm unaware of. The systems we have are
| what enable this business to exist, and make it hard for
| healthier (both in terms of food sold and their impact on
| communities) business to exist.
| missedthecue wrote:
| The shrinkage rate may also contribute to this. In other
| words, the more goods that are stolen from the shelves,
| the higher the prices have to be on everything else in
| order to maintain sustainability.
|
| In this way, shoplifting is essentially a tax on everyone
| else in your community.
| analyte123 wrote:
| Amusing. My personal experience is that DG is awesome. Before
| DG in the town I'm familiar with if you wanted to buy basic
| office or school supplies, basic OTC medical supplies that
| were not a gas-station 2-pack of aspirin, essentially any
| cookware, or a better variety of packaged goods than the
| local mediocre grocery store (like detergent, snacks, juice,
| sauces) you had to drive over 20 miles. The produce that DG
| does have is fresher than the local store and they also don't
| try to resell expired meat. Now people can use way less
| gasoline for their basic needs. Now senior citizens with
| limited mobility can drive slowly or take a golf cart to DG.
| Rather than "eroding prospects" it adds to sales tax revenue
| and makes the town more attractive for tourists, remote
| workers, and other people who are relocating. Dollar stores
| also have a small land footprint and use few utilities.
| Jach wrote:
| Does Amazon refuse to deliver to homes in the town you're
| familiar with? Doesn't help with produce since not
| everywhere has same-day Amazon Fresh I guess (and Amazon's
| isn't very good compared to store alternatives in the
| Bellevue, WA area), but it hasn't occurred to me to buy
| basic office/school supplies, OTC medical stuff, or many
| other things from a store instead of Amazon for a long
| time.
| jcims wrote:
| Pretty sure the bile in these comments would be doubled
| if the story was about Amazon displacing local stores.
| jcims wrote:
| If there are two underrepresented groups in HN comments its
| poor folks and people that live in rural communities. This
| article is just scapegoating 'dollar stores' for scenarios
| where their growth intersects with environments suffering
| from incompetent leadership and shitty education as if a)
| it's the only place these stores exist and b) they are the
| root cause for the problems being outlined.
| [deleted]
| jcims wrote:
| Dollar General specifically also goes to places that have no
| local community retail. There is one three miles from me that
| was built a few years ago in this exact situation. Yet we
| won't see any quotes about that in articles like this that
| are just focusing on the negative.
| jandrewrogers wrote:
| There is a presumption here that "local" grocery stores are
| an unalloyed good. In my experience, having grown up in these
| kinds of places, they were often _more_ exploitive and
| extractive than the national chains. When Walmart rolls into
| town, many times it breaks a local monopoly that used this
| fact to its advantage with both customers and employees.
|
| A problem in the US is that there are many thousands of
| communities that are below the size/density threshold where
| the traditional Walmart model makes sense. Dollar General
| seems to be well-optimized to fill this part of the market.
|
| Another nice thing about national chains is that they mostly
| stay out of community politics. Local monopoly business
| owners have a bad tendency to leverage that status into
| completely unrelated political and personal matters.
| RC_ITR wrote:
| This is the same argument about local newspapers - sure it
| is probably good to have local reporters covering local
| events, but replacing $5/line classified ads with Facebook
| Marketplace probably had a more positive impact on people
| vs. biased and poorly-read write-ups of a city counsel
| meetings ever did.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| Interesting. Do you know if Dollar General is cheaper per
| calorie when talking actual ready made meals? The linked
| article talks about worse price per ounce, which might mean
| something very different.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Per calorie probably isn't a great measure. Lots of high-
| calorie but nutrient-poor foods will score highly by that
| measure.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| I've read that in times of economic hardships people
| survived on cheaper dog food without bad outcomes. Maybe
| it tastes even acceptable with some Sri Racha on it? Who
| knows.
|
| Anyways... what I meant to say is probably something like
| don't be so fucking picky! (Regarding measurments and
| such.)
|
| Arf! Arf! (SCNR)
| ravila4 wrote:
| I am always looking for ways to live frugally, and I think dollar
| stores have their niche, and there is good reason for their
| success.
|
| In my experience, they are one of the best options for buying
| budget non-food items at low volumes where quality is not the
| most important factor. Things like cleaning products, office
| supplies, arts and crafts supplies, batteries, deodorant,
| candles, even common tools and repair equipment.
|
| The reason is that if I want to save on many of this items, I
| would need to buy in bulk at a large store like Costco, or order
| on Amazon - at a greater volume than I need, and at a steeper
| price. (e.g. batteries, pens, superglue, oven cleaner, drywall
| patcher,rope etc..)
|
| Not everything you use needs to be of premium quality, and these
| are the kind of items that large department stores and large
| online retailers have trouble competing against when selling at
| low volumes.
|
| Now when it comes to food, there are better cheap ways to help
| undeserved communities. Large department stores waste a lot of
| good produce because it is close to their expiration date. Where
| I live, a couple of grocery stores specialize on selling this
| type of produce at a discount.
| [deleted]
| protomyth wrote:
| Is Dollar General really considered a Dollar Store? When I think
| Dollar Stores, I think as bit lower on the product scale like
| Dollar Tree and its ilk. Dollar General is basically a compact
| Walmart.
| cco wrote:
| It isn't and it really calls into question the rigor of the
| author, and also gives you a laugh about the hackernews crowd
| as well. Dollar General is _not_ a dollar store, its a general
| store where prices are not tied to "a dollar".
|
| Though "dollar stores" have items that are not always only $1,
| the bulk of their inventory is keyed in on that price point,
| Dollar General has no such paradigm.
| hangonhn wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzxLPvjTgLE
|
| Wall Street Journal has a really good video explaining the
| strategy and economics of Dollar General.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Retail makes so little sense now for anything that isn't very
| cheap.
|
| Otherwise you can just ship it from Amazon, Instacart, or a
| speciality store.
| mnd999 wrote:
| The natural conclusion of this is no retail at all, no malls
| and high streets reduced to cafes, hair salons and betting
| shops (where that's legal). All retail goes through 2 or 3 big
| online suppliers with cavernous warehouses that deliver daily
| in vans or at a premium within the hours via bike or drone.
|
| This sounds more dystopian than utopian to me.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| AKA efficiency.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| Why?
|
| Repurpursing the enormous waste of land that does no longer
| have commercial value into cafes, hair salons, take away
| places and whatever else seems a more diverse, vibrant place.
| It also means that if you have some creative use for
| commercial real-estate you are likely to be charged a lower
| rent.
| mnd999 wrote:
| I disagree, I think they'll be mostly empty places, or
| converted into poor quality housing.
|
| The takeaways will also disappear, why do you need a
| shopfront when everything is delivered on a moped via an
| app.
| Joeri wrote:
| Dollar stores are not cheap though, when you look at price per
| quantity they're usually more expensive.
| tines wrote:
| Good point; it's not (or, may not be) that more dollar stores
| are opening, it's that fewer other stores are opening.
| mmiyer wrote:
| Instacart ships from retail though.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| While proving the model, yes, but there is no inherent reason
| it needs to long term.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| That's gonna change, if they are to stay.
| ybean wrote:
| That is an incredibly privileged response to something like
| this. No one who is living in poverty or near the edge of
| poverty can even consider the additional cost associated with
| shipping or delivery, let alone on a weekly basis for core
| staples.
|
| Reasonably priced fresh food access within _walking_ distance
| should be a basic right. However, the people who need this most
| are those who are underserved.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| They specifically pointed out pricing as the relevant
| factor...
| MattGaiser wrote:
| But that's my point. The case for retail increasingly only
| makes sense if a few extra dollars here and there matter to
| you and you need the savings it can provide.
|
| So it makes sense that any increase in retail would be meant
| to serve that population.
| ybean wrote:
| Thanks for clarifying.
|
| I guess the point left to further discussion would be
| whether or not these stores truly server that population.
|
| They clearly found a gap and a solid business model (for
| now) but is it a success from capitalism is concerned? or
| humanitarianism is concerned? I'd say the former and maybe
| a bandaid for the latter in some regions.
|
| Interesting to watch the changes unfold.
| fidesomnes wrote:
| "That is an incredibly privileged response to something like
| this."
|
| OH MY GOD. HOW DARE YOU SOLVE THE CHEAP DISTRIBUTION OF
| PRODUCTS, THAT IS A HATE CRIME.
|
| "Reasonably priced fresh food access within walking distance
| should be a basic right."
|
| You hear that fascists? The goalpost is now moved so that you
| are violating peoples rights if they cannot walk to buy your
| reasonably priced fresh food, a "basic" right(!).
| coldtea wrote:
| Welcome to the developing world
| H8crilA wrote:
| What fraction of store closings do they make up?
| runawaybottle wrote:
| If you've passed by working class communities in a big city, all
| you would see throughout the pandemic are food lines. Even with
| the stimulus, the working poor were lining up for food. Not ready
| to serve meals, but literal eggs, milk, bread.
|
| I am not surprised at all thriftiness is back.
| antcas wrote:
| A dollar general opened in my food-desert hometown a couple years
| ago. First new thing to open in decades that hasn't shut down
| within a year. Welcome addition to the town.
| Niglodonicus wrote:
| ITT: bunch of tone-deaf middle class folks who don't have the
| slightest understanding of the myriad of systems in place to keep
| poor people deprived, defending shitstain companies like DG.
| celias wrote:
| Planet Money episodes about dollar stores from 2019
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/04/26/717665452/epis...
|
| https://www.npr.org/2019/05/09/721685190/planet-money-dollar...
| theyellowkid wrote:
| What low income neighborhoods need is one of these:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grocery_Outlet
|
| Our local one is excellent, plus the wine deals are amazing.
|
| It's funny how many branded items here are 1/2 the price of the
| local 'normal' grocery stores.
|
| Of course, when you peek at other peoples' carts, garbage food
| can be strongly associated with the weight of the cart pusher (or
| a rough guess at the socioeconomic class), but at least they have
| the opportunity to eat well on the cheap.
| moneywoes wrote:
| One of the things I severely miss having moved from the US to
| Canada
| runbathtime wrote:
| Dollar stores are for poor people. Americans are becoming
| impoverished. Elites are getting richer, thanks to Fed policy and
| our bailout economy that creates inflation at the expense of the
| saver.
| [deleted]
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| Good article and discussion about the economics of these "Leeches
| of the poor":
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27650477
|
| TLDR: The products in Dollar Stores aren't 'cheap' in the sense
| that they cost less than other stores per unit - its just that
| they're (mostly) packaged into smaller units that people living
| paycheck to paycheck can afford.
| paulpauper wrote:
| It's a bad deal, marketed to ppl who either cannot do math or
| afford larger quantities
| robotresearcher wrote:
| Do you buy your toilet paper by the palette direct from the
| manufacturer?
|
| Everybody trades off the unit size, handling costs and cash
| flow when buying goods.
| shadilay wrote:
| I wish I could have bought a pallet of toilet paper in
| early 2020.
| the-dude wrote:
| If I am not mistaken this strategy is used by large
| multinationals in developing countries.
|
| For example, Unilever selling the same washing powder in India,
| just in miniscule packages.
| pasttense01 wrote:
| Note the other stores mentioned: Walmart, Target and Costco--
| all discount stores. When you compare prices to convenience
| stores or drug stores the Dollar Stores are much cheaper.
|
| And when you look at Walmart, Target and Costco remember time
| is money. And it takes significantly longer to shop at Walmart,
| Target and Costco (the long walks to and from your car, the
| long walk in the store itself, the waits at the cashiers).
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| How often are people going to Walmart/Target/Costco that
| walking time is a material factor?
|
| I make weekly Costco runs and my total time car door back to
| car door is 15 minutes or less. I just order for pickup at
| Target, but even if I had to find the item, I can just see
| what aisle the product is in in the app and grab it and go
| within 10 minutes easy.
|
| On the other hand, Dollar Tree or Dollar General is probably
| only budgeting 1 person for the staff, maybe 2 and so there
| is at most 1 register open 90% of the time. So you have a
| high probability of spending minutes just waiting in the
| checkout line. At Walmart/Target/Costco, you have self
| checkout and at Costco you have super fast staff at checkout
| with many lines open such that the lines are always moving
| quickly.
| massysett wrote:
| There's absolutely a difference. Going to Costco is a
| monumental hassle compared to Dollar General. They have few
| locations so for most people it's a farther drive. There's
| a line of cars snaking around the place waiting to buy gas.
| The parking lot is huge and I have to walk through it. Once
| inside, I have to pass the giant-screen TVs and half a
| warehouse of rarely-purchased items before I get to the
| food. All the food is in huge units. Often the lines at
| checkout are extremely long, and then there's another line
| to have my receipt checked before I get out. Then I have to
| load the stuff into my car - they don't bag it. Oh - and I
| paid a membership fee to experience all this!
|
| Dollar General has many multiples more locations, and I can
| park right in front of the door. I'm in Costco every week
| and it's fine but yes, that walking time combined with
| everything else is definitely a factor.
| mlac wrote:
| I'd say it's less about "time is money" and more about "I can
| afford 100 diapers with this week's pay check at 25 cents a
| diaper" and use my entire $25 budget if I go to Walmart, or
| "I can afford 25 diapers at 50 cents a piece and spend the
| remaining $12.50 on food - that will get me through this
| week" if I go to dollar general.
|
| That's literally the definition of living pay check to pay
| check - one's outlook only cares about the next week or two,
| because you have to make trade offs between food, clothing,
| shelter, and essentials.
| armchairhacker wrote:
| Is Target a discount store? It's not Whole Foods, but I
| always heard it was a high-end Walmart. Costco is also known
| for really good quality, though the prices are still cheap.
| hogFeast wrote:
| The reason smaller stuff is slightly more expensive is shipping
| costs. Compare two identical products in any store, the larger
| one will be cheaper, the smaller one will be more expensive,
| and this scales with weight.
|
| TLDR: people who have never worked in retail, don't understand
| retail.
|
| Also, saying that these stores are more expensive is crazy if
| you actually lived at a time when these stores didn't exist.
| These stores grew because production moved offshore for many
| products, and retailers took all that profit to their bottom-
| line (and the five layers of distributors). A lot of these
| chains cut this out and returned that profit to the consumer.
| Ofc, the product composition of each store is different (the
| ones with more FMCG do more optimisation of store size, range
| of products)...but yes, it turns out people will complain about
| lower prices...loudly (I have seen this in almost every country
| where similar formats exist, the loudness of the people
| complaining about low prices outweighs everything else).
| techbio wrote:
| Dollar General is not a dollar store any more than Target is a
| target store.
| WalterBright wrote:
| The 5 and dime stores have turned into the dollar stores. They'll
| be sawbuck stores by Christmas.
| duxup wrote:
| I'm lucky enough not to see a lot of those.
|
| But everything else in retail around me is Chipotle, Noodle's &
| Company, Nails place, some other equally ubiquitous brand ... and
| yet there's lots of retail space available near me that is nice,
| but empty. Seems wasteful.
| seibelj wrote:
| The gut-reaction is that this is some horrible thing rather than
| a scalable business model that provides low-cost goods to
| customers in rural areas that were previously underserved. My
| family in rural Oklahoma and Texas have to drive over an hour to
| Wal Mart, the dollar stores have a similar but curated subset of
| goods at a cheap price, and the distance is much closer.
|
| HN monoculture loves to crap all over things like this. I see it
| as deeply beneficial to society. Not everyone lives in SF or NYC
| and can use their iPhone to order delivery 24/7.
| ergot_vacation wrote:
| The difficulty is that it can be both. Dollar stores almost
| certainly do SOME kind of good, otherwise they wouldn't exist.
| Unlike SV startups, I doubt the companies behind them are
| interested in burning piles of money without turning a profit.
| They ARE turning a profit, which means people are coming it,
| which means people find the service offered attractive.
|
| That said, people also find the service offered by drug dealers
| attractive. And yet if the number of crack dealers in your
| neighborhood explodes overnight, it's unlikely most people will
| see that as a positive development. A healthy neighborhood is
| not one riddled with drug pushers, and a healthy economy is not
| one riddled with dollar stores. There's nothing wrong with a
| few discount stores, in the same way there's nothing wrong with
| someone stopping at a fast food place every once in a while.
| But if you're eating every meal there, something isn't right.
| zhdc1 wrote:
| Why are we conflating discount stores with (illegal) drug
| dealing?
|
| One offers convenience, along with relatively cheap products
| at relatively cheap prices. They occupy retail spaces in
| lower-end retail outlets that would - in current conditions -
| likely go unoccupied.
|
| The other is an illegal activity engaged in norms-violating
| economic behavior outside of the rule of law.
| [deleted]
| ybean wrote:
| Your example is already biased, because you use Walmart as the
| other option.
|
| Walmart already came through and blew away the local mom and
| pop market in these rural areas.
|
| Are they more convenient than driving an hour to a walmart?
| probably.
|
| I've seen small family run stores go out of business
| specifically because they can't compete with a dollar general
| that opened a mile away.
|
| "Deeply beneficial" seems like a strong phrase for something
| you might want to reflect on more.
|
| Ask some of your older family members what they did _before_
| Walmart
| zwieback wrote:
| This is assuming "mom and pop stores" are beneficial. We
| certainly like them when driving through picturesque small
| towns but I know a lot of people living in those towns that
| prefer an efficient supplier. They understand what they lose
| but prefer to save money on their shopping trips.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Right.
|
| Walmart not only sells merchandise cheaper than "Mom and
| Pop", they almost certainly pay their employees higher
| wages than Mom and Pop ever did. They also have a 401(k)
| (fully-vested after only 7 years) and an education program
| that covers tuition, books, and fees for majors of interest
| to Walmart (e.g., IT and supply-chain management).
|
| The opportunities for advancement at "Mom and Pop" were
| pretty much limited to "Son or Daughter". By contrast, the
| current CEO of Walmart (annual compensation $22 million,
| net worth > $100 million) started working there as a summer
| job in high school, unloading trucks, and has never worked
| anywhere else.
| seibelj wrote:
| For anyone reading this thread who still has an open mind, I
| recommend this 2009 episode of the EconTalk podcast that
| talks about actually working at Walmart and how supposedly-
| great the "mom and pops" were before Walmart took over:
|
| https://www.econtalk.org/platt-on-working-at-wal-mart/
|
| The truth about the mom and pops is that they had very
| limited selection, high prices, long delivery times, and
| often were owned by the local business man rather than a
| decentralized group of independent business owners. I
| recommend listening to the podcast before knee-jerk deciding
| that you know everything.
| hnbad wrote:
| > often were owned by the local business man rather than a
| decentralized group of independent business owners
|
| You imply this is undesirable. Care to elaborate? A large
| talking point during the protests last year was businesses
| in Black communities being owned by people outside those
| communities, or more often than not, by large corporations.
|
| Or are you suggesting that a lot of the owners actually
| owned multiple such shops and that this isn't true for the
| shops that replaced them?
| seibelj wrote:
| If the idea is that every mom and pop was ran by self-
| directed, profit-motivated independent business persons
| who captured more of the profit, this is not often the
| case - the employees of these stores made the same going
| labor rate of any retail employee, it was just a local
| business man who ran the businesses rather than a
| conglomerate. One benefit of a large corporation like
| Walmart is the share holders are far more distributed.
|
| My general point is that this fantasy of a "mom and pop
| utopia" of small businesses that Walmart and similar
| destroyed is just that - a total fantasy. They were not a
| dream situation and they went away because they were not
| the best for consumers or their community, not because of
| some grand conspiracy.
| Joeri wrote:
| That's just a set of anecdotes though. Maybe mom and pop
| stores came in all kinds of varieties, some were better and
| some were worse. Maybe we shouldn't automatically praise
| them but maybe we shouldn't also automatically assume that
| because some of them weren't good most of them weren't
| good. I doubt anyone has the data to advance a definitive
| view of mom and pop vs walmart.
|
| What I do think we can say definitively is that any market
| that has few competitors over time will atrophy. Having the
| store landscape reduced to a few big chains with little
| variety is not healthy for that market.
| jcims wrote:
| Dollar General is wildly successful because they are filling
| a need.
| Afforess wrote:
| No, not usually. Usually they are replacing a less
| profitable, but larger grocery store with a highly
| profitable, smaller dollar store. It's a greater profit at
| the cost of product selection.
| jcims wrote:
| Not around here. They are showing up where there is no
| retail as well.
| clifdweller wrote:
| In much of the midwest wallmart in 90s went to the
| biggest cities every 40-60 miles then that led to all
| local non chain spartan grocery stores going under.
| Driving back to my parents over past few years have seen
| all the small towns that used to have a grocery store now
| have a DG to take care of at least some needs and having
| to drive an hour for some laundry soap. DG has spent a
| lot of time figuring out the 60% of what you need with
| almost all goods same price as walmart
| paulpauper wrote:
| There is no such thing as a monoculyure here. posts that are
| critical of dollar stores get down-voted plenty. The only type
| of post / viewpoint that tends to get down-voted a lot is
| anything too conspiratorial. Or too extreme left/right on the
| economic spectrum.
| singlow wrote:
| I think many believe that the dollar store preys on shoppers
| who may think they are getting a better deal, but don't realize
| that the unit price is not better for many items, and often in
| deceptive ways.
| zhdc1 wrote:
| This is like saying that vending machines prey on unfortunate
| office workers who didn't have the foresight to pack a 2
| liter soda in their brief case.
|
| Convenience is absolutely a justification for charging higher
| prices.
| jcims wrote:
| That type of 'dollar store' is basically defunct (edit: must
| be a local phenomenon) Family Dollar and Dollar General are
| essentially small Wal-Marts and sell products for
| approximately the same price.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| There are over 15,000 Dollar Tree stores in the US that
| operate on the "$1 for each item" model.
| tomc1985 wrote:
| There are several Dollar Trees that are fully stocked and
| busy in the suburban Southern California city I used to
| live in. Not sure how that makes them "defunct"
| jcims wrote:
| Edited to say it must be local. They have largely
| disappeared around here. They usually only sold
| Tupperware and beach toys anyway, so I'm not sure how
| they apply to the article, but I'm just moving the
| goalposts there.
| zhdc1 wrote:
| > HN monoculture loves to crap all over things like this. I see
| it as deeply beneficial to society. Not everyone lives in SF or
| NYC and can use their iPhone to order delivery 24/7.
|
| I'm disappointed that your comment was downvoted because you're
| absolutely correct.
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| Nah everything closes too early in SF good luck getting
| anything but McDonalds after 2am.
| detaro wrote:
| The top comment says pretty much the same, except without the
| stupid generalization about the HN community. Just FYI,
| according to dang only 50% of HN users are even from the US,
| and only 10% in the Bay Area, so there is a fairly large
| contingent you are going to annoy with such generalizations.
| zhdc1 wrote:
| The OP's comment is still absolutely correct if you replace
| NYC with Berlin or another European city. HN is very biased
| when it comes to certain subjects and, in all fairness,
| there is a large contingent of users here who are very
| willing to downvote comments simply because they disagree
| with their personal opinions.
|
| Let me add context to why I upvoted the OP's comment. There
| are large portions of the United States (and I'm currently
| visiting one) where big-box discount stores simply don't
| exist. These are the same places where Amazon two day
| shipping is either not available or unreliable - Amazon
| doesn't pack everything in their inventory in every
| warehouse. Smaller discount stores add some variety, and
| are a benefit to people who would otherwise have to spend
| more in fuel and lost time to get to the nearest
| Costco/Walmart/what ever than they would save from lower
| prices.
|
| This is an issue for a large minority of the United States,
| and may very well be an issue for a geographic majority (if
| not a large majority) of the country. I'm sure there are
| plenty of HN users who live in places like this, but it's
| also very, very likely that a majority of HN users, such as
| myself, live in urbanized regions - whether in the US, the
| EU, or in other developed areas.
|
| While it's certainly expected that these users will have
| different views and opinions based on their situations and
| life experiences, echoing the OP's comment, I've noticed
| that many of them have a concerning lack of empathy for
| people who come from different backgrounds.
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