[HN Gopher] Smell You Later: The Weird Science of How Sweat Attr...
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Smell You Later: The Weird Science of How Sweat Attracts
Author : herbertl
Score : 111 points
Date : 2021-07-29 11:03 UTC (11 hours ago)
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(TXT) w3m dump (thewalrus.ca)
| 123pie123 wrote:
| about 20+ years ago I found myself single after a long term
| relationship.
|
| I expermented with many things that would work in dating, one of
| the things I tried was having a shower earlier on in the day I
| was going out (about 3-5 hours before) and make sure I do some
| sort mild excercise - walking/ houswork etc after the shower (and
| only having a little smell/ perfume on me)
|
| obviously all my observations were subjective, but it felt like
| it made a difference on my success rate - whether it was that or
| it raised my confidence I've no idea
| stinos wrote:
| Can relate. My current partner was a colleague and we had to
| literally work cloesly together. Something about the smell of
| her sweat activated the right brain function because it made me
| want more, as in 'let's procreate right now' and as wa later
| found out the feeling was mutual. That same smell on other
| women still has the same effect by the way; whereas I'm
| sometimes almost disgusted by people using a lot of
| perfume/deodorant.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| It's better not to reference global variables in private
| functions.
| MrsPeaches wrote:
| Reminds me of:
|
| https://smell.dating/
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Or this (from: "A Fish Called Wanda"):
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw5MxRhjudk
| vmception wrote:
| I've learned vocal tone range is a consistent across my mates,
| with higher pitched women never making the cut.
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if scent or some pheromone level is a
| major factor too.
|
| This is in addition to form factor.
| ElemenoPicuares wrote:
| And he's _still single._
| spansoa wrote:
| > Some pheromone
|
| Interesting you brought up pheromones. There exists a whole
| cottage industry of companies selling pheromone scents used for
| the dating game. Most of it is snake oil though and they lack
| the proper studies needed to prove that the scents actually
| work
| ekster wrote:
| Are you talking about human relationships or some kind of
| device or program you are interacting with? Hard to tell from
| the way you are describing them here.
| [deleted]
| vmception wrote:
| I'm repurposing form factor to be short hand of describing
| several desirable shapes and a lack of deviation from them.
| Since it is obvious to many people that share the same
| experience, I hope it catches on!
| srswtf123 wrote:
| Seems like textbook objectification
| addison-lee wrote:
| Or people like what they like. Imagine that.
| ekster wrote:
| It reads to me more like technical specs for a sex doll
| or maybe dating simulator software, but I guess everyone
| is different.
| OrvalWintermute wrote:
| > It reads to me more like technical specs for a sex doll
| or maybe dating simulator software
|
| Most species have some selectivity used for determining
| mates, as well as reproductive strategies.
|
| There is no shame in having a relationship with someone
| you find physically and mentally attractive.
|
| After all, if children are the biggest investment in your
| life, may as well have them with someone you love.
| ekster wrote:
| I didn't get the sense that the post I replied to was
| concerned with love or personality traits for their
| mating procedure as described. It was a list of physical
| attributes or tolerances like you might have for an
| object like a wrench or car.
| vmception wrote:
| You are looking for a dissertation full of disclaimers to
| satisfy your sensitivities, following an article about a
| _smell-dating event_. This might be the moment where you
| take a step back and wonder why you are worried about
| this so much.
| ekster wrote:
| Probably just run into one too many incels on the
| internet with similar points of view that I am reading
| into this.
| OrvalWintermute wrote:
| Elements of attractiveness are merely entry points if you
| will.
|
| Most western heterosexual women prefer men that are tall
| and have good facial symmetry. My gay friend told me he
| likes lumberjack types with heavy musculature. I
| personally prefer a taller woman with a good hip to waist
| ratio.
|
| I wouldn't shame a woman for liking what she likes, nor
| would I shame my friend for his preferences. Nor should
| Cis hetero men be shamed for what they like. It is an
| individual decision.
|
| There is a great deal more to relationship success beyond
| mere attractiveness. But, it has to start somewhere.
| pontifier wrote:
| I wonder what sort of insights could be gathered from a large
| matrix of odor samples and preferences. Sounds like an almost
| perfect data set (nodes and edge weights) for some interesting
| research.
| MrsPeaches wrote:
| The East German secret police used smells to find suspects:
|
| https://m.dw.com/en/the-stasi-had-a-giant-smell-register-of-...
| pomian wrote:
| That's a great article. Well, not great. Terrible. But a very
| interesting read. They did it then, and are doing it now. For
| those who want to know: Article describes how, today,
| government officials are storing smell samples of people,
| just in case. Just as the Stasi did in East Germany. Thanks.
| darkpine wrote:
| The fear of having any natural body odor in today's society is
| incredibly widespread. It's almost impossible to find information
| on the negative effects of our practices of putting ultra-scented
| substances on our skin via deodorants and perfumes, in our hair
| via shampoos, on our clothing via scented detergents, etc. Yet
| everywhere you look, there are vested corporate interests telling
| us that we stink, are repulsive in our natural state, and so on.
| This is why it's so difficult to find people willing to forgo
| these products, and then to admit it and report on the results.
| Sure, basic hygiene is important. Shower after working out. Brush
| your teeth. Comb your hair and rinse your scalp. I use to
| unquestioningly shampoo my hair every few days until I noticed I
| had to wash more and more frequently, as it started getting
| greasy quicker. In 2017 I decided to go cold turkey on using
| shampoo. The first few months were rough. But over time, my hair
| and scalp biome has normalized, and rinsing with warm water is
| enough to remove any grease build-up. My hair is also a lot
| healthier - less split ends and less dried out than before.
| Deodorant is a much more difficult beast to escape from. B.O. in
| the workplace is definitely worse than a greasy looking ponytail.
| However, with the lockdowns, I've been experimenting with
| skipping the deodorant. So far I can't say I like the results,
| but I wonder if it's again the kind of thing that takes a while
| to normalize. Either my nose will become numb to it, or the
| bacteria in the skin will calm down after being tampered with for
| so long. It's a little shocking to think I've been smearing a
| costly cocktail of chemicals on my pores for more than half my
| life, and barely even recognize my own scent. Crazy to think that
| we might be blocking an important subconscious source of
| information on the people in our lives.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| I was once working on a micro site for some under eye
| highlighting roll-on, essential titanium dioxide suspended in
| various petrochemicals and emulsifiers. The premise of the ads
| was that bags under the eyes make you look old and tired, and I
| have to say all the weird beauty speak worked and I did start
| to wonder if I did indeed need their product that fixed a
| condition of being human that no-one noticed until their ad
| created this sense of lack in the people viewing it.
| kccqzy wrote:
| Besides scented substances on our skin, I also cannot stand
| things like scented candles or scented air fresheners. The
| scents don't smell natural at all, are generally overpowering,
| and they occasionally give me headaches. I'd rather have good
| ventilation.
| nestorD wrote:
| I have experimented with it (with an honest partner to give me
| exterior feedback) and:
|
| - no shampoo works for me, it has a difficult adaptation period
| but afterward it feels normal and my hair is healthy (nowadays
| I use a carefully selected shampoo about once a week)
|
| - no soap also works but felts to weird to keep doing (nowadays
| I only use soap on sweaty areas, never on my face)
|
| - no deodorant works and does not smell bad _as long as your
| body is clean_ (nowadays I only use deodorant when I know I
| will be out and maybe active for too long to garantee that my
| body will stay clean)
| retrac wrote:
| > This is why it's so difficult to find people willing to forgo
| these products
|
| Pragmatically, we can't smell ourselves very well, and we tend
| to think it smells fine when we can. So how would you know we
| don't need to be insecure?
|
| Our society is also uptight about this such that it's often
| treated as offensive and transgressive to do a very normal and
| polite thing (one would think) and point out to a close
| acquaintance or any friend, that well, they smell, since they
| probably don't know themselves.
|
| In short, stop wearing so much deodorant and ask someone you
| can trust "do I smell okay?" (And not your spouse. Because same
| problem as yourself.) Oh so awkward. But how else will you
| learn? For myself, I was greatly over-estimating the scale of
| the miasma. Some clearly are underestimating theirs. Some data
| points would help us all.
| glormph wrote:
| There have been some no-soap discussions on HN and I think a
| user called graeme described something similar, some years ago.
| I've tried not using shampoo but it was mainly rough and then I
| gave up (too early?). Anyway, I also wonder about possible
| benefits in not using detergents for skin biome (including a
| nicer odour), so soap is for my hands (interfaces with
| potential pathogens) and greasy stuff. The rest is easily
| cleaned with water.
| pomian wrote:
| There are real toxicological reasons not to use deodorant,
| especially the rub on variety. It is very easy to go old
| school, and just wash your armpits (sounds gross when writing
| it down,) but it is very effective. If your are sweaty in
| public, just find a sink and wash again. It takes 30 seconds.
| As with your shampoo experiment, the body becomes much cleaner
| when it's free to do what is supposed to do.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| That works for some people but not others.
|
| I once found myself in Shanghai minus my luggage that had
| contained my toiletries, including my deodorant - aluminum-
| free scented antiperspirant deodorant. From my searching
| (admittedly frustrated by poor Mandarin) no grocery,
| convenience store, or pharmacy in Shanghai stocks this
| product that's at every Walgreens and Meijer in the
| midwestern US. No, the people there don't smell bad at all.
| Apparently there's some kind of microbiome or skin oil in my
| pits that they don't have, or some beneficial thing that they
| do have which I don't.
|
| But within a few hours, I stank profusely. My very patient
| and gracious host was unable to procure me any deodorant. I
| washed my pits repeatedly, but it only lasted an hour or less
| between washings. Later, when working from home, I tried
| going deodorant-free voluntarily: the transition to aluminum-
| free varieties was no big deal, the transition to deodorant
| free was an abject failure. I tried antibacterial soaps, non-
| antibacterial soaps, no soaps, mosturizers, even shaved my
| pits...only antiperspirant deodorant stops the stink for me.
|
| Some people do smell _human_ when they 're sweaty, some try
| to mask it with perfumes but it's not necessary. Some don't
| have much of a perceptible smell at all. I smell repulsive.
| amluto wrote:
| It's a known genetic trait:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABCC11
| svachalek wrote:
| The really fascinating bit about this one is it also
| changes your earwax. So it's quite easy to tell which
| gene you have, without a sniff test.
| robgibbons wrote:
| Reminds me of a line from a book I read on perfumery: "The last
| ingredient in any perfume is your skin." A perfume will take on a
| different twist after being applied to one person or another.
|
| In older times, when daily showering/hygiene wasn't super
| widespread, perfumes were designed to complement your natural
| aroma instead of covering it up. We call those natural body odors
| "animalic" scents. These days, we add in those types of scent
| into the perfume itself.
| rapnie wrote:
| I know quite a few people who stopped regularly showering with
| soap and shampoo. They do it just on occasion and otherwise
| just use water. I can assure you that they do not smell bad.
| Consider doing so myself, and have heard it is better for skin
| and hair too. But I didn't look up any solid material on
| whether this is more healthy (a search will probably lead to a
| lot promoted science that urge me to use skin products).
| HEHENE wrote:
| I've taken a bit of a middle ground approach, partly out of
| laziness and partly because it just doesn't seem all that
| necessary.
|
| I have to wash my hair daily otherwise I feel absolutely
| gross, and I'll also wash the private and smelly bits daily
| with soap, but otherwise I only use soap head to tow twice a
| week.
|
| My partners have never seemed to notice or complain about any
| off smells although I realize being around someone for long
| periods of time can desensitize you so I've taken a few
| opportunities to ask my parents who would certainly be the
| first to tell me if I smell like crap and they've never had
| any complaints.
|
| Anecdotally, every partner I've had has told me I have great
| skin. Hair stylists have also told me I have incredibly
| healthy hair - I've been using cheap Suave Essentials (the
| clear baby blue bottle) shampoo with no conditioner since I
| was a kid.
| graeme wrote:
| You're actually _not_ supposed to use soap on groin or
| anus:
|
| https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.healthdirect.gov.au/amp/ar
| t...
| rapnie wrote:
| > Keep the anal area clean by washing with water every
| day. Don't use soaps as they will reduce the natural oils
| that protect the anus and may make the area dry and
| itchy. Use aqueous cream or a soap-free cleanser instead.
|
| Non AMP link: https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/anal-care
| firecall wrote:
| Well that escalated quickly! ;-)
|
| But seriously, an interesting topics. Thanks for the
| links!
|
| I've never been a daily hair washer.
|
| Or all over body soaper.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Works well. Just make sure to use a washcloth to exfoliate
| the dead skin. Although, I do use shampoo every other day,
| because I have super greasy Italian hair.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Since COVID, I stopped showering every day. I generally
| shower after working out, which is every other day. And I do
| this at the gym. Has saved me a lot on my water bill.
|
| Of course if I do something strenuous at home and get really
| sweaty or dirty I will shower. There's no point in being
| disgustingly sweaty/smelly.
| upofadown wrote:
| I sort of fell into the "nopoo" lifestyle. Things had evolved
| to the point that I was having constant problems with fungus
| that the anti-fungus shampoos could not control. Perhaps the
| fungus evolved. At one point I just said "screw it" and gave
| up on shampoo all together. Problem entirely solved, along
| with my dry hair problem. As a result I stopped bothering
| about body soap which generally made things better as well.
| Soap/shampoo for when I am actively dirty doesn't seem to
| break the spell. It is like I just need a break from
| soap/shampoo all the time.
|
| No complaints so far...
| temp0826 wrote:
| _60% of the time, it works every time_
| kace91 wrote:
| Covid made me unable to smell body odor. I smell _something_, but
| it's very clearly not the same odors and it's completely flat - I
| can't tell the odor of different people apart for example, or
| tell apart the smell of a gym dressing room from that of used
| clothes.
|
| Perhaps coincidentally, ever since I had covid I've had
| practically 0 libido. I used to have several ONS a month, now I
| haven't felt the need or interest for that for more than half a
| year.
|
| I've been wondering if there's any relation...
| kazinator wrote:
| Gives a new meaning to Gorky Park.
|
| OK, now you're a little too gorky (== "bitter") for me.
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| This is one of the best articles I've read in a while. The
| background story is entertaining, and the scientific part is
| relevant, well explained, and insightful.
|
| My initial reaction to personal stories in science article is to
| expect trudging through, but I didn't feel bored for a second
| here.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Is anyone else really weirded out by the fact that the 'scent'
| you are attracted to is _actually_ from the bacteria on the other
| person?
| xyzzy21 wrote:
| Well, your immune system, psychological state and general
| health is more determined your gut flora than anything you do
| otherwise (so eating the wrong things can also affect these).
|
| You aren't just you. You are a system that includes bacteria on
| and in you.
| cronix wrote:
| No more than thinking that as I look at someone's lovely skin,
| I'm looking directly at a body organ that sheds about 8 lbs a
| year and ends up as house dust.
| _game_of_life wrote:
| Did the article actually conclude that though? I just read up
| until the point they were talking about strippers and lap dance
| tips being correlated with fertility and luteinizing hormone --
| which doesn't seem to be about bacterial microbiomes.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Don't know which discussion on HN this was, but it was about
| the same book. Basically, each of us produces a varying
| amount of fat in our sweat and that leads to different
| bacterial biomes. The bacteria that metabolize the fat in the
| sweat are what actually produce the odors we recognize.
| DJBunnies wrote:
| We are just ecosystem hosts, they are the ones running the
| show.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| "I've noticed you around. I find your microbiome very
| attractive. Would you... um..."
| HPsquared wrote:
| "My microbiome is signalling to me that it likes your
| microbiome."
| echelon wrote:
| Gut microbiota are increasingly being linked to immune system
| health.
|
| Despite the old "disproportionally more bacterial cells than
| human cells" myth, we can still have twice as many bacterial
| cells in our bodies than human cells [1].
|
| Humans are a commensal organism of many colonies of bacteria.
| Without them, we'd be in bad shape.
|
| [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2016.19136
| slowhand09 wrote:
| Some mentions in the article remind me of the Nora Ephron movie
| "Michael" starring John Travolta as an archangel. Numerous women
| mention that he smells like cookies, pie, something pleasant from
| youth, etc
| pomian wrote:
| Who is #15???? After that good article, and that great lead up,
| we don't find out who is #15. I wonder if there is a follow up
| article. Definitely a fascinating field of study, we haven't even
| begun to understand. From mating, to enemy forming, to bullying,
| addiction, food analysis, sleeping, etc., there are so many
| potential topics to understand, depending on our research into
| smells.
| willvarfar wrote:
| > "Excerpted from The Joy of Sweat: The Strange Science of
| Perspiration by Sarah Everts"
| racl101 wrote:
| My buddy's younger sister used to say she liked the smell of
| guys' balls.
|
| I thought she was kidding the whole time I knew them. I wonder if
| this is what she meant.
|
| I just wrote her off as a weirdo lol.
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