[HN Gopher] Drowning Doesn't Look Like Drowning (2013)
___________________________________________________________________
Drowning Doesn't Look Like Drowning (2013)
Author : matthewsinclair
Score : 159 points
Date : 2021-07-28 14:56 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (slate.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (slate.com)
| [deleted]
| lsllc wrote:
| From 2013, but still highly relevant and something all adults
| should be aware of.
| abfan1127 wrote:
| this type of training should accompany CPR training, something
| all adults should know also.
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| The last time I took CPR certification the instructor said it
| shouldn't be taught anymore because it is essentially useless
| in day-to-day life. The speed at which the brain dies without
| immediate hospital attention is just too rapid for CPR to be
| effective outside of a hospital.
|
| EDIT: I'm not lying, I was literally told this by the person
| performing the certifications. She said only 1 in 20 people
| survive without severe brain damage. Which is better than
| death to some people I guess.
| lsllc wrote:
| According to the American Heart Association [0], CPR can
| double or triple the chances of survival:
|
| _" Each year nationwide, more than 350,000 people suffer a
| cardiac arrest outside of a hospital; only about 10 percent
| survive.
|
| When the heart stops beating, a lack of oxygenated blood
| can cause death within minutes. If CPR is performed
| immediately, it can keep blood flowing to the brain and
| other vital organs, doubling or tripling a person's chance
| of survival."_
|
| [0] https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/08/22/cpr-training-
| at-sch...
| choeger wrote:
| Counter example: Danish captain at the Euro 2020 opening
| game.
| pdovy wrote:
| Not to mention that AED's are more prevalent in public
| spaces these days. If you can provide CPR _and_ use the
| AED the chances of survival increase dramatically.
| [deleted]
| willyt wrote:
| That sounds like nonsense and it's certainly not what I've
| been taught when I've taken advanced first aid courses.
| It's true that the statistics are not on your side in that
| the CPR has only a 1 in 5 chance of being successful and
| that is if you start immediately after the persons heart
| stops, but that's no reason not to try it.
|
| Recently, an acquaintance of mine was saved by two of his
| employees who performed CPR on him for 30 mins until the
| ambulance arrived. He was very lucky to have collapsed in
| front of them and that they had both been in the army and
| had good first aid medical. He was hospitalised for 3 weeks
| and he has memory problems now, but he's out of bed and
| there for his kids.
| [deleted]
| lamontcg wrote:
| There's a video out there of three Indian guys who filmed
| themselves drowning when they went swimming in a pool of water.
| Most people seem to think it looks fake/staged. I won't bother
| linking to it, but I'm sure google can turn it up if you go
| looking.
| gamegoblin wrote:
| So, at the risk of doing the SV "how can we ML this" thing, this
| seems like a pretty good opportunity to apply computer vision.
| I'm sure OpenAI or Deepmind or whoever could build a lot of good
| will by training such a model and freely distributing it.
|
| I'm sure it will be tricky due to lack of training data, though.
|
| You could maybe even do this without an end-to-end ML system, and
| just use ML to do the head+arms detection, and then do a rules-
| based approach to determine the drowning status. This is probably
| much more tractable and doesn't have the lack of training data.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Yes we can - and what people miss, you don't have to be ML only
| or Human only - it can be Human lifeguard augmented by ML,
| especially at places like beaches where the horizon to scan is
| much larger. I suppose the danger is of the human becoming
| complacent.
|
| As far as training data, if we know what it looks like, we can
| create virtual scenes that simulate different conditions and
| scenarios and train on that. Obviously, it won't be perfect but
| if it gets deployed, we can start getting more real life data
| and augment the training on that.
|
| Not for lifeguards, but I've always imagined a future vision
| system that would track me in my lap swim workout. At the end,
| it would tell me my stats, length swam, times, stroke done
| (with count) and maybe even down the line coaching my form.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| There is apparently a company doing this already:
|
| https://swimeye.com/
| [deleted]
| gentleman11 wrote:
| Strongly agreed in theory, but...
|
| That goodwill ends when the company is found to be uploading
| all footage to the cloud to evaluate everyone's physical
| fitness and body shape for future insurance company use, and to
| build a picture of your social web for Facebook one day, and
| heck, whatever else people will pay to know, including to serve
| warrants against other people incorrectly identified by other
| ml systems as commuting some crime
|
| I'll become 100x more pro-machine vision once severe laws get
| made to restrict how it's used.
| andrewem wrote:
| The author of this has some videos related to swimming (0). See
| for example the one called "1-10-1 Final" where he jumps into
| cold water that is about 40 degrees F (4 degrees C) and stays in
| for a number of minutes, showing what to do.
|
| [0] https://vimeo.com/mariovittone
| seriousquestion wrote:
| What an odd title. Drowning does look like drowning. How could it
| be any other way, given that it's involuntary?
| opium_tea wrote:
| I've seen this as an LPT or similar posted on Reddit. I think it
| helped save a life in the New Year pre-pandemic.
|
| I'd stopped at a picnic location near a rocky Atlantic (European)
| coastline with my partner. It was a picturesque location but the
| sea was inhospitable - huge swell and waves that just looked
| violent. We'd sat down at a bench with a view of the sea and set
| out our lunch. At some point after that I noticed two people in
| the sea, maybe 30-50m out. They were bobbing about in the swell.
| Initially I was confused. It didn't look right but my mind tried
| to make explanations - maybe the locals just swim out there in
| crazy conditions? After some time it became clear that they were
| in trouble, I guess that's when the "drowning doesn't look like
| drowning" advice came to me. Luckily the beach (tiny strip of
| sand between cliffs) had a well-labelled sign with an emergency
| number that I called and managed to ask for an English speaker
| and described the situation.
|
| Whilst waiting for the response one of the people in the water
| started trying to tow the other towards shore but made no
| progress. They kept disappearing behind large waves and at some
| point I could only pick out one of them, then I saw a pair of
| shoes or sandals floating then I saw the other person face down
| in the water, occasionally visible behind the swell. There was
| some dithering where a local official came to the beach to check
| out the report but eventually we heard helicopters and one person
| was rescued and the body of the other recovered.
|
| It turned out there was a group of three tourists, two sons
| (teenage/early 20s) and their dad. A local had taken them to a
| fishing spot - a flat rock that spanned out towards the sea close
| to water level. A large wave had washed the dad and one of his
| sons out to sea. The dad died. I witnessed the other son - who
| hadn't been washed out to sea - being interviewed by police, as
| utterly distraught as i've ever seen a person, understandably.
|
| Looking back on it I should have realised the severity of the
| situation sooner but perhaps without this advice I would have
| left it too late and neither would have made it.
| MarkMarine wrote:
| One thing I learned in naval aviator swim qual was how easy it is
| to float for a very long time, given the right technique. (Called
| a dead man's float. Link: https://www.sportsrec.com/prone-
| float-8623477.html )
|
| We naturally try to swim with our heavy head out of the water,
| but with full lungs most people will easily float for almost an
| unlimited amount of time, only popping your head up for a breath.
| Somehow, the more nervous you are, the more you struggle to keep
| your head out of the water. Learning that I could float like this
| for hours if needed keeps me calm in the water, I recommend you
| all try it, and keep it in mind to fall back on if you ever start
| to panic in the water.
| Rapzid wrote:
| I grew up on lakes in Florida. I wasn't taught to "swim" as
| much as I was taught to survive in water.
|
| Swim classes should be reframed as water survival classes IMHO.
| Confiks wrote:
| If you want to try yourself if you can identify drowning, there's
| this great educational 'game':
|
| http://spotthedrowningchild.com
|
| It's pretty hard to spot it before your hear the lifeguard
| blowing their whistle. Turns out [1] that the game was actually
| inspired by a HN thread on the same article in 2015 [2].
|
| [1] https://github.com/FrankSalad/spot-the-drowning-child
|
| [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9947237
| MattGaiser wrote:
| It seems easy to spot once you see the first one, but it really
| just looks like a child bobbing up and down until then.
| ineedasername wrote:
| > _http://spotthedrowningchild.com_
|
| Wow, even _knowing_ there would be someone in danger, I didn 't
| spot until, at best, the lifeguard jumped in and usually a
| little after that. And they didn't know something bad was about
| to happen, and had to be scanning the entire pool constantly. I
| should have had a few seconds of advantage on that at least.
|
| I think I would be terrified to have a job like that... 99.99%
| of the time everything is fine, which would make it hard to
| maintain constant vigilance when you might go multiple days
| without an incident. while needing to be prepared for that
| extremely small window of crisis.
| Natsu wrote:
| After you watch enough videos, you learn to look for kids
| doing unsafe things (e.g. climbing on flotation devices) to
| spot things ahead of time. Sure, you learn what drowning
| looks like, but if you watch, the lifeguards often react
| _instantly_ which means they predicted that person would get
| themselves in trouble ahead of time and reacted as soon as
| the person went under.
|
| I got a lot better at it after a little bit of practice and
| most of the improvement was figuring out who was doing
| dangerous things that you needed to keep an eye on.
| bruiseralmighty wrote:
| I used to be a lifeguard. I am glad I never had to deal with a
| pool like that with so many people and inner tubes in it. Makes
| line of sight so much more difficult.
| dgfitz wrote:
| When I was a lifeguard we forbade floats. They're lifeguard-
| resistant deathtraps.
| BuildTheRobots wrote:
| Because of people getting trapped underneath?
| tj-teej wrote:
| Because you can't see underneath, a pool is 3D and if we
| can only see the surface we're missing the most dangerous
| part.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| This is why jobs like lifeguard or airport security
| frequently rotate workers during a shift.
| dgan wrote:
| Watching these videos make me extremely emotional :( I had no
| idea that's how drowning looks,
|
| I am also scared of water, so I guess (?) I am safe on that..
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| I was a lifeguard and I never felt very confident in it tbh.
| But I do win this "game" every time. So... idk, what that says.
| codetrotter wrote:
| Sounds like a good mentality for a lifeguard I think,
| probably keeps you alert. And combined with the fact that you
| are good at spotting drowning people means that you really
| are a good fit for the job.
| ineedasername wrote:
| I think that's the only way I could do this job, if I was
| pretty much constantly terrified I might miss something,
| never comfortable, not at all. That has to be a hard state of
| mind to maintain when you might go a fairly long time in
| between crisis.
| secondcoming wrote:
| Those inflatable tubes can't help a lifeguard's view of the
| pool.
| tstrimple wrote:
| No, but they help my gaming mindset. The majority of the
| issues arose when someone fell off of a tube in water too
| deep for them, so that's what I optimized for. I'd probably
| be a terrible life guard but I do just fine at the "game"
| version.
| Natsu wrote:
| I'm pretty sure this is what most of the guards were
| watching for, too. Quite often they react instantly once
| someone goes under, so you know they had an eye on the kid
| climbing on top of their tube before that.
| okareaman wrote:
| After watching the videos around the time this article came out,
| I spotted a man drowning in the ocean. I was on a cliff looking
| down at some tourists not familiar with the ocean. I couldn't get
| down to him or make myself heard to shout a warning. Fortunately,
| he pulled out of it and got to shore. It was the most helpless I
| ever felt.
| srean wrote:
| I continue to be amazed by what lifeguards can do.
|
| Even if drowning looked like drowning there is just so much going
| on in a crowded pool I cannot imagine how people can pick on
| anything. To me it seems like an audio-visual version of drinking
| from a firehose.
|
| If I was in their place the best strategy that I could conceive
| of adopting would be to a for loop checking each one out, and
| perhaps dwelling a little longer on those who I think maybe
| particularly susceptible. But this would be a terrible strategy,
| too easy to miss someone, too much latency in revisit time.
|
| So a hat tip to all lifeguards on HN, deeply appreciate your
| work.
| wkearney99 wrote:
| We had our 9mo child take 'Infant Swim Rescue' courses, basically
| anti-drowning lessons. The concern being the waters near us are
| cloudy and it'd be impossible to see someone if they went under.
| Classes went well.
|
| At a neighbors party a 2.5yo fell into the pool. I saw it
| happening and the little girl just SANK LIKE A STONE. With a
| panicked look on her face. Little feet hit the bottom, let out a
| blurp of air and did nothing. Her Dad was already in the air
| diving into the water before I could get up. The child was fine,
| thankfully. Her folks immediately asked about the classes I'd
| mentioned before.
|
| I can still see the complete bewilderment on that child's face.
| She just had NO IDEA what to do and would have drowned had it not
| been for quick actions.
|
| My point here is lessons are absolutely worth considering
| starting MUCH earlier than you might guess. This isn't learning
| to 'swim', it's learning how 'not to drown'.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| (2010)! (it's a republish)
|
| Some previous discussions of this old piece resubmitted often by
| usual suspects:
|
| _11 years ago_ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835
|
| _6 years ago_ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9947237
|
| _5 years ago_ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11667755
|
| _3 years ago_ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17170593
| ineedasername wrote:
| _resubmitted often by usual suspects_
|
| Do you mean you think they were posting/reposting things purely
| for upvotes? If so, I still don't care: As something both
| interesting & important, popping up on the front page seems
| like a good thing every few years. I don't care is @tomte or
| whoever is doing it just to get meaningless internet points.
| Different people rotate in & out of HN, so anything really
| interetsing/important is just fine by me if it keeps popping
| up.
| [deleted]
| oalders wrote:
| On a swim safety note, if you're going to be swimming in open
| water, I highly recommend getting yourself a swim buoy for
| visibility. You can also use it to stash your phone, keys, etc if
| you've got a dry bag. https://outdoorswimmer.com/product-
| reviews/tow-floats-and-dr...
| alex_anglin wrote:
| Thank you for sharing. I wasn't aware these existed and am
| already looking at getting one. As others in the discussion
| have noted, it doesn't a lot of depth or distance for bad
| things to happen.
| oalders wrote:
| They're handy to have. I think most of them are technically
| not life saving devices, but you can use them for a bit of
| extra flotation if you need them. They're handy to rest your
| head on if you're taking a break and hopefully they make you
| more visible to other traffic on the water. If you're
| swimming with buddies it helps them to see where you are at
| in the water, especially if you're farther apart or if the
| water isn't flat.
|
| I'll sometimes swim with a group at sunrise. We swim out
| about 750m from shore. Having the buoys helps us see where
| the other swimmers are at and ensure that everyone is safe.
| Also, if the swimmers ahead of you have good lines and
| they're sighting on the same thing as you are, you can be a
| bit lazy and just follow their buoys instead of having to
| pick out a landmark on the horizon.
|
| You can even put an LED inside of some of them to get a bit
| of extra visibility depending on conditions. Lots of options!
| s5300 wrote:
| >We swim out about 750m from shore.
|
| Yeesh, this for some reason invokes a likely unreasonable
| bit of fear in me. I completely understand sucking it up
| and getting over things if money is involved (like working
| on a crab boat in the Bering Sea), but that far out for
| leisure activity spooks me.
|
| I was always a pretty good swimmer and had my lifeguard
| license for a bit as a teen through boyscouts activities.
| I've always been aware of risks of open water and riptides
| and how to deal with them... for as long as I can remember.
|
| However, a few years back now at Blacks Beach in La Jolla
| (reputation of the best yet most dangerous surf in
| California AFAIK), in a normal beachbspot I'd spent a lot
| of time around away from the surf, I mind bogglingly got
| hit by an outlier of a wave out of nowhere in otherwise
| calm waters, close to shore. I had prescription glasses on
| with no safety, stupid, but I'd had no plans of being in
| anything higher than my low waist, and only for a short
| while.
|
| Glasses got knocked off (I'm really near sighted without +
| severe static vision), wave brought me down under to the
| sand, and I was pulled out by the most insane force. I'm a
| mechanical engineer, so well aware of the sheer insanity of
| the forces involved with bodies of water and currents, but
| it was just an unreal and out of nowhere rip.
|
| Got myself quickly situated and calm but internally scared
| as all fuck, was pulled out probably 1.5 miles by the time
| I swam out of the rip. Swimming back in was hell because I
| was mostly physically exerted from hiking already.
|
| Nobody noticed what had happened and there wasn't a damn
| thing anybody could've really done about it either.
|
| Not too sure why I felt the need to write this out... but
| stay safe. I can only want to get my swimming done in a
| pool at this point, unless I'm around highly competent
| lifeguards with boats and rescue equipment (I'm sure
| there's a chance you are perhaps around boats when doing
| this?). Just so much that can go wrong so fast.
| krumpet wrote:
| Something else that is important to mention is that young kids
| can easily slip into a pool or jacuzzi and not make a sound. We
| might think we would hear a "splash!", but that isn't necessarily
| true.
|
| I watched my daughter step of the ledge in a jacuzzi once and it
| was completely silent. One second she was walking and the next
| she was under water.
|
| Keep your eyes on young children near water at all times. If they
| are really young and can't yet swim, either be with them or have
| them wear an approved flotation device. Going under can happen in
| a split second when your back is turned.
| zengineer wrote:
| This article actually "saved my life". I read it back then in
| 2013 and in 2014 I almost drowned.
|
| Just before I felt that something was very wrong I remembered
| that this post said that if you drown it is already too late to
| scream for help. So I shout to my friend, who was also with me in
| the water, that I am about to drown. He then tried to help me but
| then he struggled too because of the current and the strong waves
| which came out of nowhere. It took us a lot of effort to get back
| to a point where we were able to stand. Until today I try to
| avoid to go deeper than I can actually stand.
| March_f6 wrote:
| As someone who recently almost drowned a couple weeks ago this
| article is spookily accurate. I was surprised how indifferent
| everyone on the shore was when a wave finally coughed me up onto
| the sand. My only assumption, post stress headache, was that it
| just didn't look like I was drowning.
| libria wrote:
| What was the cause of duress? Undertow? Fatigue? Inexperienced
| swimmer?
| March_f6 wrote:
| I suspect it was a mix of a couple things. Here's how it
| went: 1. I exhausted myself to a fair degree when I first
| swam out in order to get past the point at which the waves
| were breaking. Once I was in a calm area I began to rest and
| catch my breath. 2. I began to feel what I can only describe
| as a slight panic attack when I noticed that the current was
| behaving slightly like a rip (a current pushing away from the
| shore). 3. The cold temp of the water mixed with the newfound
| anxiety and my exhaustion began to make me feel shorter and
| shorter of breath. 4. At this point I was in full panic mode
| and started using all of my energy to get back to the shore
| or at least to the point at which the waves were breaking to
| carry me in.
|
| So I think in general you could categorize it as an
| inexperienced swimmer because I couldn't spot the rip from
| the shore but I don't think its always so obvious since even
| a small one could carry you away.
| meepmorp wrote:
| Yeah, never fight the rip tide, you won't win. Move
| laterally - rip currents are usually narrow, and you can
| swim out of them sideways. The lack of control, though, is
| freaky and unsettling.
| [deleted]
| drucik wrote:
| Article seems to be spot on - it's good to remind people about it
| once in a while.
|
| When I was a kid I jumped into a semi-empty pool, where depth was
| more or less equal to my total height. Bad judgment on my part. I
| couldn't swim so all I could do was bouncing of the bottom,
| gasping for air with each bounce. That was the only thing I could
| think of doing. Lifeguard was there but he didn't notice drowning
| kid, nor did people around me in the pool. Fortunately my father
| was more aware, and jumped in, fully clothed, to drag me out. I
| don't remember if it lasted 30 seconds or 2 minutes but I do
| remember the scared face of the 'lifeguard' when we were walking
| past him.
|
| edit:grammar, at least what I've noticed
| devoutsalsa wrote:
| When I was in the army, one of my roommates drowned right in
| front of a bunch of people he was swimming with. He was in about
| 3 meters of water, got a leg cramp, went under, and never came
| back up. I found him face down on the bottom of the lake with his
| face in the mud. He was later declared dead. Took a while to get
| over that.
| Rendello wrote:
| My mother was a lifeguard and was swimming in a medium-sized
| empty pool surrounded by other lifeguards (her colleagues). Her
| leg cramped badly and she went under, she said the pain of
| trying to move was unbearable. She crumpled up at the bottom of
| the pool and nearly drowned before her one of her fellow
| lifeguards noticed something was wrong and saved her.
|
| That story's always stuck in my head.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| This topic has come up on HN several times before and it never
| ceases to unsettle me. I'd never had a personal experience with
| it before. It's even more chilling after having had an
| experience with it.
|
| My 8 y/o daughter recently attended a "pool party" w/ sports
| teammates. One of the mothers, fully clothed and there only
| acting as a chaperon, jumped in to pull out one of the girls
| who was in distress.
|
| The distressed girl's mother had commented, just a few moments
| before, on how the girl was "fine" and "just playing" as she
| flailed about in the water. My wife said the girl didn't look
| to be in distress, per se, but was kind of "jumping around".
|
| I found out later that the mother who rescued the girl she'd
| been a lifeguard. She recognized the girl was in distress.
| There were 8 to 10 other adults present and no one else, in or
| out of the pool, was thinking too much of it. It's absolutely
| chilling.
| Natsu wrote:
| The problem is that drowning looks _exactly_ like someone
| just "jumping" in place in the pool. If you don't know what
| to look for, you might not realize what's going on, but for
| anyone who knows, it should rightfully set off alarm bells.
|
| I hope someone sends the parent this game so they can learn
| without having a dead kid :(
| leaveyou wrote:
| I'm a very amateur swimmer and I try to understand why people
| drown from cramp in one leg? Because me being a novice, I
| learned how to swim without using the legs too much (mainly
| because it takes skill to coordinate everything well) and one
| of the very first things was me floating by turning my head
| hard backwards while standing vertically in the water and
| sinking in water up to the nose, basically sticking as little
| of my face above water as possible and IIRC I was floating fine
| with very little help from hands and no use of the feet at all.
| That seemed easy, especially in dense cold water..
| Rendello wrote:
| My lifeguard mother almost drowned from a leg cramp (see my
| sibling comment), she explained that the pain of movement
| becomes so unbearable that your body basically goes into the
| fetal position and sinks to the bottom.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| I occasionally wake up from extreme leg cramps. It literally
| feels like someone is taking a knife on the serrated edge and
| pulling it down from the top of your calf muscle for a solid
| 20 seconds. All you can do is writhe in agony and scrounge up
| into a ball because naturally that is your response. After
| it's over you're in a ton of fatigue, your heart is racing,
| and just want to rest. Now do that in a pool.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Used to get that a lot. Leg once cramped super hard which
| smashed my knee into a metal railing. Double agony that
| night. Magnesium supplements really helped
| a lot. Later on, stretching lots and lots of stretching.
| Now a massage gun. Cramps are a thing of the past.
| MisterTea wrote:
| I get those in bed from time to time and my course of
| action is to keep the leg strait during the onset, get out
| of bed and stand up stretching the leg muscle. The pain can
| be very intense but once I stand up and apply pressure by
| standing on the leg, it almost immediately stops the cramp
| and the pain subsides within a few seconds.
|
| I used to let the leg contract and curl up powering through
| the cramp pain until it subsided but a few times it lasted
| over a minute which is agonizing.
| leaveyou wrote:
| Ok, I understand.. it seems I had milder versions of
| cramps. The one I remember the most was when I basically
| had to grab the toes of my foot and pull hard counter to
| the cramping muscle and basically it ceased after several
| seconds. It was very painful but I didn't know they can be
| paralyzing.
| kibwen wrote:
| This kind of extreme cramp is known as a "charley horse",
| if you want more information.
| em-bee wrote:
| it doesn't take much movement to get a cramp. the few times
| that i had a cramp, i was doing things like getting out of
| bed or standing up from a chair. horribly painful and the
| only thing you can do is to stop moving and try to relax.
|
| if you do that in the water, you sink. by the time you
| realize that this was a bad idea it's to late. i can imagine
| that the pain would distract me to much to be able to focus
| and use my arms to keep me afloat. never mind that i'd
| probably also not think about taking a deep breath to get
| enough air before sinking.
| [deleted]
| lazyant wrote:
| Also: stay away from low head dams
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsYgODmmiAM
| soco wrote:
| It's incredible how much text there's about it and zarroh video
| material. So difficult to hire an actor and show us dummies how
| drowning _does_ look like? There 's enough CPR videos, thanks a
| lot for them, yet about drowning just blah and confusing
| animations. </angryrant>
| cycomanic wrote:
| Look at the post further up were a poster pointed to
| http://spotthedrowningchild.com/ which uses videos.
| soco wrote:
| I'm missing the explanatory, clear, close-up videos. The
| gamea with a pixel-wide kid somewhere in the background would
| then work to check on that learning.
| canniballectern wrote:
| Here's another comment with some excellent demonstration video:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27984716
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-07-28 19:01 UTC)