[HN Gopher] Former eBay employee gets 18 months in prison for cy...
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       Former eBay employee gets 18 months in prison for cyberstalking
       campaign
        
       Author : tomcam
       Score  : 132 points
       Date   : 2021-07-27 19:44 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
        
       | acomjean wrote:
       | I've been following this a little. I grew up near the
       | Massachusetts town where this occurred (Its a pretty non-descript
       | suburban town).
       | 
       | So that fact that a big company and high up executives decided to
       | target a very home spun news letter, is just crazy. Its like
       | something went off the rails.
       | 
       | Ars has pretty good coverage.
       | 
       | The harassment was bizarre and threatening: sending roaches and
       | pig masks is just the wierd start: Sending a book on "how to
       | survive the loss of a spouse" is really dark.
       | 
       | https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/ebay-execs-sent-...
       | 
       | more recent:
       | 
       | https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/07/lawsuit-ebay-tri...
        
         | NavinF wrote:
         | Anyone got a link to the newsletter?
         | 
         | I'm really curious what the eBay execs found so offensive.
        
           | acomjean wrote:
           | Based on the name it would be:
           | 
           | https://www.ecommercebytes.com
           | 
           | it still contains the authors names on the posts and on the
           | about page.
        
             | NavinF wrote:
             | Thanks. If they wrote anything controversial, they must
             | have deleted it. Most of the posts related to eBay are of
             | the "According to Bloomberg..." variety. No hard hitting
             | journalism to be found here.
             | 
             | The comments below each article are indeed salty about
             | eBay, but no more so than your typical eBay seller on the
             | official forums.
             | 
             | I have no idea what got the execs so riled up. There's
             | gotta be something more to this story.
        
         | WrtCdEvrydy wrote:
         | > a book on "how to survive the loss of a spouse" is really
         | dark
         | 
         | That's evidence in some states....
        
       | hacknat wrote:
       | Who wants to follow up to see what this guy gets after 18 months
       | of prison for keeping his mouth shut?
        
         | OhMidER wrote:
         | "Never rat on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut."
         | 
         | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Mfs44MhYM
        
       | khazhoux wrote:
       | I barely have enough time in a week to keep up with emails and
       | meetings, without crashing exhausted at the end of every day. I
       | can't imagine having time in my schedule to travel across the
       | country, send live cockroaches over mail, plan to plant GPS
       | trackers on vehicles, etc.
       | 
       | I have to work on my time management!
        
       | yawaworht1978 wrote:
       | Ah the c level got away with it....for now. Most likely these
       | office bullies will be subject to diverse forms of stalking in
       | prison. Prison is a different set of rules, can't hide behind
       | corporate procedures and helpers. Maybe if they have a horrible
       | experience while incarcerated, they might wanna get back at the
       | CEO.
       | 
       | I have read about this case years ago and have forgotten about
       | it, very surprised that this took so long.
        
       | walrus01 wrote:
       | more detail: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/26/technology/ebay-
       | cockroach...
       | 
       | https://www.wired.com/story/ebay-employees-charged-cyberstal...
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | bamboo2 wrote:
       | Way too lenient.
        
       | pmoriarty wrote:
       | It's stalking and harassment incidents like these that I'm
       | reminded of any time someone tells me they've got nothing to
       | hide.
        
         | mynameishere wrote:
         | _any time someone tells me they 've got nothing to hide._
         | 
         | Has anyone ever actually uttered that particular strawman
         | argument to you? I think it may be the second most commonly
         | used one.
        
           | dec0dedab0de wrote:
           | my mother, my best friend, multiple co-workers and ex
           | girlfriends. Even one person who grew up under the Warsaw
           | Pact, and defected. He would say it, even when he did have
           | something to hide, because he knew that the powers that be
           | could always use something against you. Also known as CYA.
        
           | vmception wrote:
           | fascinating rebuttal, so because you - a random account -
           | didn't notice it before, it must be a strawman argument.
           | 
           | I don't really understand the utility of going that
           | direction? Like, are you advocating for something in
           | particular such as anti-privacy measures or are really just
           | independently unaware that people would say something while
           | that's fascinating enough to you that it would be a fictional
           | argument that you feel undermine "pro-privacy" talking points
           | 
           | Its just hard to see why it would bother you enough to
           | invalidate it
        
           | antonzabirko wrote:
           | It's used all the time everywhere. From the CCP surveillance,
           | to forced police searches, to normalizing lack of privacy in
           | apartment living, the examples are endless.
        
           | stronglikedan wrote:
           | Yes. It happens a lot when pointing out privacy consciousness
           | to a layman. Not that I do that often, but when I do, it's
           | the overwhelmingly disproportionate response. Only followed
           | by something about being worth it for the convenience.
        
           | graedus wrote:
           | Not a strawman at all, it's a very common attitude if you are
           | not on HN or in a similar bubble. I heard it in person
           | (verbatim, actually) about 5 days ago.
        
           | npteljes wrote:
           | Happened to me too, and those who told me practically handled
           | it as a conscious tradeoff. They give up some privacy,
           | whatever, they're not doing anything extraordinary, and they
           | reap some benefits.
        
         | shadowgovt wrote:
         | Interestingly, I can't tell if you mean the stalkers should
         | have less privacy or the stalkees should have more privacy (so
         | they don't get targeted for stalking).
         | 
         | Privacy is a tool. Its benefits can help or harm.
        
         | willis936 wrote:
         | That's the anti-privacy propaganda working.
        
           | duxup wrote:
           | More likely it's just people being foolish.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | Lammy wrote:
       | Impressive how they managed to nail seven underlings for doing it
       | (five plead guilty; two went to trial[0]) but not CEO Devin Wenig
       | for ordering[1] it, instead giving him a $57 million golden
       | parachute straight into GM's Cruise. I wonder if Wenig being CEO
       | of Thomson Reuters Markets from 2008 to 2011 has any effect on
       | the way Reuters reports on this eBay scandal:
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Wenig
       | 
       | [0]: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/two-former-ebay-
       | executive...
       | 
       | [1]: https://news.bloomberglaw.com/white-collar-and-criminal-
       | law/...
        
         | techrat wrote:
         | Rich people don't go to jail.
        
           | adventured wrote:
           | Rich people do go to jail. These are just some of the bigger,
           | more famous fish -
           | 
           | John Kapoor, Bernie Ebbers, Scott Sullivan, Jeff Skilling,
           | Martin Grass, John and Timothy Rigas, Bernie Madoff, Michael
           | Milken, Richard Scrushy, Joseph Nacchio, Martha Stewart, Ivan
           | Boesky, Jordan Belfort, Sanjay Kumar, Allen Stanford, Raj
           | Rajaratnam, Walter Forbes, Eddie Antar, Dennis Kozlowski, Sam
           | Waksal, Alfred Taubman, Russell Wasendorf, Samuel Israel III,
           | Stewart Parnell, Chris Collins, Kareem Serageldin, Andrew
           | Fastow, Charles Keating, Martin Shkreli, Barry Minkow,
           | Michael Steinberg, Phil Spector, Bill Cosby, Michael
           | Avenatti, Harvey Weinstein, Suge Knight, Jeffrey Epstein, Ken
           | Lay (escaped prison by dying)
           | 
           | To this list you can add hundreds of bankers from the Savings
           | & Loan crisis that went to prison, and a large number of
           | famous embezzlement cases involving large sums (eg John
           | Doorly, Sujata Sachdeva, Melissa King, Omino Siddiqui).
           | 
           | It's too bad the Obama Admin intentionally chose not to
           | pursue almost any prosecutions after the most recent
           | financial crisis, or you could probably staple many more
           | names to this list. One of the greatest avoid-jail corporate
           | hand-outs in US history, representing hyper corruption at the
           | highest levels.
        
           | fundad wrote:
           | The "former eBay employee" was pretty high up in eBay
           | security operations and also a former police Captain and they
           | don't come cheap. He's less rich than the CEO but can
           | definitely afford more than the paltry $15,000 fine.
        
           | shadowgovt wrote:
           | Mostly because rich people can pay someone else to mail
           | cockroaches to their enemies instead of getting their own
           | hands dirty.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | javajosh wrote:
           | "Rich people don't go to jail" is a tautology masquerading as
           | cynicism. In a world where nothing happens unless it's paid
           | for, then it follows that _more happens_ when there is _more
           | money_ involved. This includes criminal defense, where more
           | money means more defensive moves which, in general, means a
           | better defense.
           | 
           | For the record, I think this is a strong argument _for_ a
           | world where things happen despite you not paying for them,
           | and to level the playing field (spending) in a few key areas,
           | like legal defense and political speech. Imagine if even rich
           | people were forced to use the public defender; you would see
           | an immediate improvement in their quality!
        
         | nkingsy wrote:
         | "While there's no suggestion in court papers that Wenig knew of
         | the plot, prosecutors say his angry emails triggered the
         | scheme, and they play a central role in the narrative spelled
         | out by the government.
         | 
         | "Take her down," Wenig is alleged to have written in response
         | to a post by the blogger."
         | 
         | That would be the smoking gun, but who's alleging it? Article
         | didn't say.
        
           | khazhoux wrote:
           | There are plenty of legal interpretations of "take her down."
           | E.g., file a hard-hitting lawsuit.
           | 
           | I will give the CEO the benefit of the doubt that he did not
           | mean: "Take a half-dozen people and engage in a massive,
           | obsessive, batshit-crazy online and real-world cross-state
           | harassment campaign."
        
             | whatshisface wrote:
             | You don't think it could have come out over coffee one day?
        
               | khazhoux wrote:
               | I have to assume there was no evidence of that, or else
               | he'd be charged too.
        
               | whatshisface wrote:
               | Well, no evidence and benefit of the doubt are separate
               | concepts. You can say that no record was made of it, and
               | that it probably happened.
        
           | da_chicken wrote:
           | "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest? With a sword,
           | ideally."
        
             | tomcam wrote:
             | Appropriate quote, love the edit
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | The same thought occurred. And, even if prosecutors
             | correctly thought that this was a waste of time to take to
             | trial, GM saying nope "nothing here" doesn't, shall we say,
             | impress me.
        
           | cactus2093 wrote:
           | Is that even a smoking gun? Surely that one text message is
           | not enough to prove that he meant "harass and cyberstalk her"
           | rather than "sue her for libel" or some other non-criminal
           | action.
        
             | nkingsy wrote:
             | I just know from my big Corp training manual that things
             | like "crush" and "take down" should never be in corporate
             | communication for legal reasons.
             | 
             | From a "reasonable" perspective, there are two
             | possibilities, both of which implicate the ceo.
             | 
             | 1. "Take her down" was enough information, in which case he
             | is at fault.
             | 
             | 2. It wasn't enough information, in which case further
             | discussion was had offline.
             | 
             | I am convinced beyond reasonable doubt that there is no
             | option: 3. The employees thought it was enough information
             | incorrectly and began a criminal conspiracy because they're
             | just so eager to please.
        
               | pyuser583 wrote:
               | But enough information for what?
               | 
               | Let's say they had previous conversations about how to
               | handle hostile media.
               | 
               | Ideas included raising concerns with editors, pulling
               | advertising, raising concerns with platforms/ISPs about
               | "disinformation", suing for libel, etc.
               | 
               | So yes the CEO is implicated. He's clearly in the
               | decision chain - no doubt about it. But there's nothing
               | here about how much was deferred to subordinates.
               | 
               | I guess that falls into the category of "offline
               | discussion" - but that doesn't mean anything nefarious.
        
         | pessimizer wrote:
         | It's like Bridgegate. The way these people become powerful is
         | by being smart enough to both delegate crime and never write
         | anything down about it.
        
           | nickff wrote:
           | Former director of homeland security Janet Napolitano has
           | actually stated that she avoided e-mails, and did everything
           | in-person of via phone calls (presumably to avoid documenting
           | her actions and motives).
        
             | pyuser583 wrote:
             | Very common for high level officials. Or low level
             | officials for that matter.
             | 
             | There was scandal in a city I lived in. It turned out city
             | council members were turning off their cell phones and
             | actually talking face to face during council meeting
             | bathroom breaks.
             | 
             | The press was ticked, because they were used to accessing
             | the SMS messages.
             | 
             | The council members pushed back hard - nasty blog posts
             | were written - and the press ended up looking a little
             | silly and spoiled.
        
         | hacknat wrote:
         | "It is the curse of kings to be attended By slaves that take
         | their humors for a warrant"
        
       | jeeyoungk wrote:
       | So the executives who ordered this are getting away with this?
        
         | TedDoesntTalk wrote:
         | They claim not to have known about the harassment and stalking.
        
           | adamc wrote:
           | Which is a reminder: If you are going to do unethical things,
           | make sure you can _prove_ that your bosses ordered it.
           | Otherwise, in addition to being a rat, you will likely twist
           | in the wind.
        
             | Lammy wrote:
             | "Let's take this offline"
        
               | andruby wrote:
               | I once worked on a startup founded by lawyers and they
               | would do this all the time. Never put things in writing
               | that they might be flexible on later. I hated that part.
        
               | triceratops wrote:
               | "Just to recap our conversation earlier..."
        
               | trhway wrote:
               | take the notes, conspicuously, and accompanied by several
               | "come again please, i'm taking notes" if over the phone,
               | ostensibly to make sure that you're doing it to carry the
               | Leader's order in all the glorious details. Kind of James
               | Comey or North Korea style. Years ago, an acquaintance, a
               | former captain of Soviet Army who served at the place
               | pretty intense even during the peace time, had some funny
               | stories how such habit saved his bacon on various
               | occasions and it made me remember that advice.
        
             | OminousWeapons wrote:
             | Yup, always note your concerns and objections via email and
             | make sure to CC the appropriate people.
        
           | HoverSausage wrote:
           | It's their job to know
        
         | ilamont wrote:
         | Yes. Even though they were "implicated in some of the text
         | messages captured by the FBI":
         | 
         |  _Defendant Devin Wenig, then Chief Executive Officer of eBay,
         | and Defendant Steven Wymer, then Senior Vice President and
         | Chief Communications Officer of eBay, consistently tracked
         | EcommerceBytes ' reporting, and became increasingly enraged by
         | what they perceived as the Steiners' negative coverage of eBay
         | and the upper echelons of the corporation._
         | 
         | "Natick couple terrorized in eBay pig-mask campaign sue auction
         | giant"
         | 
         | https://www.universalhub.com/2021/natick-couple-terrorized-e...
        
         | na85 wrote:
         | Yes there's a separate set of laws for the wealthy corporate
         | class.
        
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