[HN Gopher] Room C, where my little ballerina danced
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Room C, where my little ballerina danced
Author : ambitiousfox
Score : 59 points
Date : 2021-07-27 16:55 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jenniferbrogdon.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jenniferbrogdon.substack.com)
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| Some of the parents in that room are full time parents. They are
| engaged with their child from the moment the child wakes them up
| until the moment that child goes to bed, and then they'll
| probably be engaged again when that child wakes up in the middle
| of the night. Just like I need breaks from work to function
| better during the non-breaks, those parents need time for their
| brains to relax a bit. That's super normal.
| ygmelnikova wrote:
| At least it's not like the early 70s where 50% of mothers stayed
| home. Ugh! Thank goodness mom can work now, up the family income
| and help drive the price of housing through the roof!
|
| And kids need a boat, right? Liam's parents have boat.
| zz865 wrote:
| Modern Parenting sucks. My Great Grandparents worked 7 days a
| week on their farm and had 13 children. You really think they'd
| be watching each one do ballet? The kids had a great time playing
| on the streets with their siblings and friends. They are mostly
| still close - sounds like a great childhood. Modern children are
| way over scheduled I feel sorry for them.
| Falling3 wrote:
| Hellooo, False Dichotomy.
| rfrey wrote:
| It's not a false dichotomy at all. The discussion is about
| constant parental attention to childrens' activities; your
| parent points out a situation with the _complete absence_ of
| such attention, and happy children nonetheless, as a
| counterpoint to the narrative. It 's a good point and it's
| unfair to flippantly dismiss it.
| christophilus wrote:
| Addiction to devices is real. If that is the main criticism of
| this article, then I agree that it requires vigilance.
|
| But I think it's unrealistic to expect parents to be fully
| present 100% of the time. It is important to be fully present
| _enough_ of the time.
|
| I wonder if the author would equally criticize the use of novels
| or sketch pads.
|
| In my mind, there is a big difference between being fully present
| for a performance / competition vs being fully present for a
| practice. The first feels important. The second feels like being
| expected to attentively watch your kid playing in a playroom.
| lthornberry wrote:
| It's not only not realistic, it's not good for kids. They need
| time that's not observed by their parents to grow and develop
| as autonomous individuals.
|
| Also, I find watching my daughter's dance practice boring, and
| I feel zero guilt for that. I'd rather read a book while she
| dances, and focus on her when I can actually play with her.
|
| The author is not a better parent than me, or than the other
| moms she's criticizing. She can feel smug if she wants, but I'm
| very confident in that.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| There are two sides to this.
|
| The first side to this is that kids want their parents to show an
| interest in their activities. The ballerina activities in this
| article are about practice. Not a performance. Practice.
| Expecting grown adults to sit there and be transfixed every
| minute by a clumsy child doing clumsy child things is a venture
| into virtue-signaling. If the parents were doing that in the
| audience in front of their kids while their kids were performing,
| THEN it's an issue. This is NOT an issue.
|
| Kids also need space. They need space to express themselves as
| individuals, and they also need space to learn to enjoy
| activities because THEY like them. Omni-present parents don't
| allow them the freedom to do this.
|
| If you exposed little girls to what we consider to be "normal
| dancing," and also exposed them to ballet... but told them they
| could dress up like ballerinas for either, the vast majority of
| them are NOT choosing ballet.
|
| Ballet is a form of dance that parents choose to show to other
| parents that THEY made it.
| gilbetron wrote:
| As a parent, I had to learn _not_ to pay much attention. Some,
| yes, but my son did better, focused more, and was less emotional
| if he knew I wasn 't watching. Like with all things, it's a
| balance. You want to enjoy what you can, because they grow fast.
| You want them to become independent, so you need to not pay
| attention all the time. You want them to know that you love them,
| so you want to pay _some_ attention. You don 't want them to
| believe they are the center of the world, so you honestly need to
| ignore them, too. If you don't give yourself some downtime, you
| become a worse parent over the medium term. The worst part is
| that the specific weights for the various options are always
| changing as they develop.
|
| Parenting is tough, and the only key indicator I've found is that
| if something is difficult to do, it is more likely to be the
| better course of action ;)
| Steltek wrote:
| You nailed it! Paying attention means they're waving at you and
| shouting rather than listening to the instructor or following
| the cues. And you want to be a "teammate" in their activities
| to max out the "quality" in quality time but then they end up
| depending on you more often than not.
| ygjb wrote:
| I absolutely love it when I am present for when my kids start
| learning something. It's delightful to watch them learn and
| figure things out and take their first steps. Sometimes whatever
| they are learning is something they enjoy, and sometimes it's
| not. For my son the first time he realized he was consistently
| hitting the ball in baseball was great. For my daughter it was
| getting control of the ball in soccer. The novelty is delightful.
|
| One thing I learned over time though, is that when I am present
| is that my presence is a distraction. It wasn't something I
| figured out - my son straight up told me. When I am there at a
| practice, he is constantly checking if I am watching, because he
| wants to make sure he is doing well (not because I am a crazy
| perfectionist parent - I hope... ) because he wants to show off.
| By not being fully engaged and present I give him the freedom to
| practice and make the mistakes that are _necessary_ for bridging
| a basic skill to mastery.
|
| I enjoy watching them learn, but not at the cost of my children
| being distracted from the task at hand. I will be present for
| every performance, and every game, but if I am going to a
| practice, I will generally drop the kids off and take a walk to
| give them space to mess up without being concerned what I am
| going to think or how I might respond.
| ambitiousfox wrote:
| The article said she watched from the lobby's screen. Her
| daughter couldn't see her watching. That makes sense for you
| though.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| I have to say, nobody should take parenting advice from HN.
|
| To those defending paying attention to your phone instead of your
| kid -- get a grip and get your priorities straight. Your kids are
| only young for so long and then it's over forever. The article
| here is trying to remind you that each moment is precious,
| whether you realize it or not.
| lupire wrote:
| Why are you wasting time on HN instead of watching your kids?
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| They do grow up fast. Things change when you have more than one,
| you may find that you cannot devote yourself to everything your
| kids are doing. You still care, you still support them, but you
| can't do everything.
| criddell wrote:
| I think this was more of a comment on parents who would rather
| scroll Instagram than watch the dance lesson in front of them.
| Let me assure you, they do exist (and I've been guilty of it
| too).
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| We shouldn't make parents feel guilty about stuff like this.
| Are we pretending that they are somehow mistreating their
| children because they didn't watch their lesson? If they are
| happy with their choices why judge them.
| balfirevic wrote:
| There is nothing wrong with that. Fuck this guilt-tripping.
| alex_c wrote:
| After having a kid, I learned many surprising things about
| parenthood and about myself.
|
| One is the absolute joy of watching my little one do... pretty
| much anything. It's an infinitely more powerful drug than
| anything social media or entertainment companies have managed to
| invent so far.
|
| Two is how much less judgemental I feel towards other parents,
| especially how reluctant I am to draw conclusions over small
| interactions where I don't know anyone's circumstances.
|
| Needless to say, this article brought up very conflicting
| feelings for me!
| softwaredoug wrote:
| I'm going to take a different PoV to defend the typers/phone
| talkers :) They're not bad parents.
|
| A lot of these kinds of things are weekly practices during the
| work day. Parents have to drive their kids 20-30 minutes to these
| events. You're usually stuck in a waiting room, trying to just
| keep your head above water on work stuff you're missing to
| maintain a career and support your family.
|
| I wish we could revel in every small thing our kids do, but
| indeed, that's not realistic. Working at home there are _many_
| times I wish I could spend with my kids I can't. It's heart
| crushing.
|
| This kind of article just piles on the guilt. Sometimes we just
| need to work to earn for our family. We do this so later we can
| spend dedicated time with our kids another time..
| nostromo wrote:
| Thank you. We are constantly guilting parents about
| _everything_ -- it 's tiresome.
|
| A friend of mine was distraught when she decided to stop breast
| feeding and to move to formula for a host of reasons (pain,
| difficulties meeting other demands, etc.).
|
| But the media has propagated this meme that using formula is
| _so much worse_ than breast feeding, when there 's no solid
| evidence that is the case. [1]
|
| Making parents feel terrible about all of these unmet
| expectations of being the _perfect parent_ is actively harmful
| for their mental health. Guilt-ridden parents aren 't good for
| anyone. It's the parenting equivalent of young people comparing
| their lives to the fake lives they see on Instagram -- holding
| themselves to an impossible standard.
|
| 1. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everybody-calm-down-
| abo...
| rapind wrote:
| > Sometimes we just need to work to earn for our family.
|
| I think this is situational. If you're barely scraping by then
| absolutely. If you're fairly well off though you're just
| working to buy a bigger house, better phone, faster car, etc.
| To each their own, but for me personally I've reduced work to
| hang out with my kids (and I'm not wealthy by first world
| standards).
|
| I don't think there's any point in guilting people about it
| though. Just be aware that you often can subsist on less to
| free up time, if that's appealing. I think a lot of us just do
| the thing (9-5 or w/e) because everyone else is and it seems
| normal.
| nineplay wrote:
| > I've reduced work to hang out with my kids (and I'm not
| wealthy by first world standards).
|
| Perhaps you have some tips but reducing work is very hard to
| manage in my experience.
|
| Salaried positions are a crapshoot - many of them like to say
| they support work-life balance but it rarely turns out that
| way.
|
| Most employers ( again, IME ) who hire contractors are not
| looking for anything less than 40 hours/week.
|
| You can set yourself up as a contractor and take the jobs you
| want, but besides the obvious loss of health insurance and
| retirement benefits, there's time spent finding customers and
| the lack of steady pay has its own costs.
|
| I'd love to reduce hours, but I've never found a way to make
| it work.
| triceratops wrote:
| > many of them like to say they support work-life balance
| but it rarely turns out that way
|
| Just work the required number of hours and then stop
| answering e-mail. Financial security helps with that,
| because at most they'll let you go for "not being a team
| player" - these are bad workplaces and you should be happy
| to leave them.
|
| More likely though, your perceived worth at work will
| improve because you don't appear insecure about your
| position.
| rapind wrote:
| > I'd love to reduce hours, but I've never found a way to
| make it work.
|
| How seriously have you tried? I don't know you or your
| situation but often when someone says this they just mean
| "that sounds nice, but...". If it's something you really
| want, treat it like a job to figure it out. I'm glad I put
| in the effort and time to work it out. It's a mix of
| reducing / eliminating expenses and trying different
| things. There are so many options once you (and your
| partner) decide you want it more than a million dollar
| house etc. The specifics depend on the individual.
|
| Most of the things we collectively (society) spend money on
| are unnecessary and often even detrimental to contentment.
| For the things that are necessary, there are often cheaper
| options. I'm not referring to some kind of new age self
| help nonsense. Just look how your grandparents or great
| grandparents lived during the depression.
| nineplay wrote:
| Budget isn't a problem. I'd happily take a pay cut, my
| expense are minimal. There just aren't that many
| employers interested in hiring someone for fewer hours.
| l30n4da5 wrote:
| > If you're fairly well off though you're just working to buy
| a bigger house
|
| I'd settle for just paying off the house I currently own,
| thanks.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Well if you're paying it off you don't really own it do you
| :)
| [deleted]
| ygmelnikova wrote:
| This.
| [deleted]
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| Exactly. Weekly ballet practice is very repetitive. Sure it
| might be nice to watch the first couple times but soon it's not
| very interesting. Are you actually going to remember every
| single one?
|
| It's much better to have a variety of experiences with kids
| than to amass sheer quantity of hours. I look back on my
| childhood and I remember the special things my parents did with
| me, I don't count up how many hours they watched my random
| activities.
| silicon2401 wrote:
| > Are you actually going to remember every single one?
|
| You won't, but many kids will remember that single time their
| parents weren't there for them, or that single time that
| something did happen that they didn't like. Or that their
| parent was always bored or checked out whenever they came to
| events. The solution isn't to pretend kids are okay with
| anything, it's to be realistic about the trade-offs you
| choose to make.
| daggersandscars wrote:
| The critical thing is to talk to the kid about what can be
| expected and when.
|
| Let them know when you'll be there and be present when you
| are. Involve the kid in determining when you'll be there if
| you can. For the times you can't go, talk to the kid about
| how it went, what was good/bad, etc, taking the kid's lead
| if they're not feeling like talking about it.
|
| I played baseball as a kid, age ~8 - 12. My parents sat me
| down when I signed up and explained that they could not be
| there for every game but would be there when they could. If
| there was a game that I specifically wanted them to attend,
| to let them know ahead of time. They asked me about every
| game they couldn't attend, were excited if I was, dropped
| it if I didn't want to talk about it, etc.
|
| There were times I was sad they weren't there (grand slam
| home run, great plays). There were times when I was happy
| they weren't there (struck out every at bat on bad pitches,
| dropped an easy catch, etc). But I knew ahead of time if
| they'd be there, which was what made it easier for kid-me
| to understand and deal with.
|
| This was how most of the families did it. The other parents
| got to know the friends of their kids and would cheer for
| them, too, which made it a friendly environment.
| silicon2401 wrote:
| The situation you described is exactly what I was talking
| about. It sounds healthy, loving, and happy, while also
| working around the realities of life and emotions. Sounds
| like a great arrangement.
| triceratops wrote:
| I genuinely have no recollection of what my parents did at
| my baseball games or practice. In general they were loving
| and very involved as parents, so I'm sure they were
| watching when I was at bat. But I was just focused on the
| game.
| ambitiousfox wrote:
| My comment above was meant as a reply to you.
| dilap wrote:
| It reminds me of a NYT article about how many women at work
| have baby monitors, just watching their baby, wishing they
| could be with it, while working. Pretty heartbreaking.
|
| I wouldn't say I'm against capitalism necessarily, but it does
| seem to have resulted in a situation where a lot of us are kept
| apart from the things and people we really want to be with.
| rcpt wrote:
| Parents spend significantly more time with their kids today.
| Almost twice as much vs. the 60s
| https://ourworldindata.org/parents-time-with-kids
|
| I get that people love a preachy guilt trip but those moms were
| doing just fine.
| ambitiousfox wrote:
| Not trying to impose guilt. One of the dance nights I worked on
| my grocery order because it needed to be done. Like someone else
| said, its more directed towards wanting to scroll mindlessly
| instead of delihhting in your child. And it's also about me
| fighting that. We all struggle with wanting to be on our phones.
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