[HN Gopher] Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound s...
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Father builds exoskeleton to help wheelchair-bound son walk
Author : geox
Score : 391 points
Date : 2021-07-27 16:01 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| ryeguy_24 wrote:
| I have a 3.5 year-old and just had twins. A story like this makes
| me feel very warm inside. Being a relatively new father, I'm
| beginning to understand the unconditional love and sacrifice that
| grows when you have kids. I commend this father for doing this.
| He is a modern day hero.
| elisee wrote:
| Video of the exoskeleton in action:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yBfUcFRZ-I
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| This is really cool! See to me this is what hacker news should
| be all about. A group of people facing some problem and hacking
| something together that works really well.
| samstave wrote:
| One of my favorite movies "Edge of Tomorrow" has dope
| exoskeletons, and while its a movie - thats where this is
| heading...
|
| I am surprised Boston Dynamics hasnt made one! If you converted
| the agility of Atlas into an exoskeleton, that would be pretty
| interesting...
| nanodeath wrote:
| Similarly I thought of Death Stranding :)
|
| Though I guess exoskeletons are not uncommon in sci-fi.
| justinclift wrote:
| Tried that game out, but found it to be realllllllllly
| tedious. eg initial missions took walking, while carrying
| some person's body over the shoulder, for "miles". Urk.
|
| Did it get better after those early missions?
| baby wrote:
| Reminds me of matrix as well
| capekwasright wrote:
| They actually did, as part of DARPA's Warrior Web program [1].
| They ultimately spun off the program to Ekso Bionics as a
| consequence of the Google acquisition back in 2014 [2].
|
| [1]
| https://www.army.mil/article/125315/darpas_warrior_web_proje...
| (the first image is of BD's system; you can just make out
| "BOST" around the center of the left thigh)
|
| [2] https://www.globenewswire.com/fr/news-
| release/2014/10/02/670...
| nzeribe wrote:
| Aliens, 1986: "I have a class-2 rating."
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPMk-EEyOpE
| mrfusion wrote:
| How come they don't open source this?
| xor99 wrote:
| This is inspiring. The cost can be brought down through use of
| soft and/or lightweight materials. For example, the use of
| textile based actuators. Good examples in link below:
|
| https://biodesign.seas.harvard.edu/soft-exosuits
|
| These things are not for the near term so really impressed by
| this story.
| samstave wrote:
| Dope.
|
| You know what I am wondering, the accelerometers in phones are
| super small, cheap and there are some sensor systems that
| incorporate a ton of other sensors (whatever happened to
| Google's smart jacket they were making with Levis)
|
| Anyway, it would be very interesting to have a textile with a
| fabric of accelerometers woven into the fabric... Solar panels
| on the thighs and what not to power the sensors... with a
| compression-heel in a shoe / boot to ad more power with every
| step.
|
| Anyone know how much power an accelerometer takes and if you
| can wire a matrix of them together to a set of controllers that
| all they do is capture the telemetry from the sensors?
|
| Check out this video on the making of accelerometers
|
| https://www.engadget.com/2012-05-22-the-engineer-guy-shows-h...
| mtwittman wrote:
| The research and engineering of new mobility aids is fine, but
| the inventor/CEO's quote, "Ten years from now, there will be no,
| or far fewer, wheelchairs" belies an attitude strongly criticized
| by many in the disability community. And in the video footage he
| says, "wheelchairs are an anomaly, men and women, human beings
| are meant to be upright". Imagine saying "Bicycles an anomaly--
| humans are meant to be upright, not in some aero-dynamic tucked
| position." Deriding one form mobility tech (an asset to more than
| 10,000,000 people) to promote another potential one is
| disappointing.
|
| The Exoskeleton's Hidden Burden [0] is a good article that
| includes the history of exoskeleton development (goes back to
| 19th c. Russia):
|
| [0]
| https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/08/exosk...
| joshtam wrote:
| It is amazing how we can go about our life without any strong
| motivation, and when something tragic happens, people often
| comment "This was the best thing that's ever happened to me". As
| it turns out, lack of success is just a lack of genuine purpose.
| caturopath wrote:
| > "Ten years from now, there will be no, or far fewer,
| wheelchairs," he said.
|
| I wonder how much money he'll put on that.
| theslurmmustflo wrote:
| if battery technology keeps improving, I'm not sure why that
| wouldn't be the case for people with long term disablities
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| If you're using a wheelchair due to a joint issue, as opposed
| to paralysis?
| bredren wrote:
| Ten years seems fast, but I foresee a revolution in local micro
| manufacture that is a mashup of 3d printing as we know it and
| local assembly of off the shelf parts.
|
| This will lead to a revolution of generic complex product
| availability that ignores patents and trademarks.
|
| An exoskeleton may not be the first type of product to be
| ordered and assembled from a few blocks away. The amount of QA
| for safety would need to be high.
|
| However, if the price of such things is 1/10 or even 1/20th
| that of the branded, official version people will continue to
| turn to hyperlocal, small-run manufacture for even the most
| safety-critical products.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| I share your skepticism but I wouldn't question the conviction
| of a guy who built a company and worked on this project for 10
| years to help his son walk again.
| rhino369 wrote:
| I hope he's wrong since my brother is quadriplegic, but I
| wouldn't bet on it. Either way, this guy is an inspiration.
| Gabriel_Martin wrote:
| I know this is unrelated, but the closed caption's text accuracy
| is embarrassingly poor for an organization of Reuter's stature.
| zapdrive wrote:
| Starting an exoskeleton company: 10 years + $$$
|
| Smile on father's face watching his son stand upright: priceless!
| manmeet wrote:
| This is amazing. I built one to help my nephew walk, and now
| selling commercially ( http://trexorobotics.com )
|
| I am fed-up at the lack of options available to individuals.
| People thought that everyone will get an exoskeleton and be able
| to walk with it everywhere. But the industry ran into many
| challenges.
|
| A big one that many dont understand is getting insurance
| coverage. The way the US healthcare system is designed, it will
| only cover restoration of mobility, not a restoration of
| function. So, from their perspective, a wheelchair and some pain
| meds can do the job easily.
|
| I believe that they key is to start with children, this is where
| you have families desperate for a solution, higher costs due to
| them growing and spending their entire life in a wheelchair, and
| the option to truly have a life changing impact.
|
| But things are changing, people are starting to notice the work
| that we are doing. We need a lot more people building
| exoskeletons and similar powered orthotics!!
| ajoy wrote:
| Great work!
|
| FYI, your "Team" link in the footer is not loading properly.
| jandrese wrote:
| I had thought when the Segway came out that a wheelchair
| version would follow shortly afterward where a person without
| functional legs could get on a saddle and move around quickly
| and at a typical human height so things on shelves aren't such
| a problem.
|
| Segway hit the market 20 years ago and it still has not
| happened. I get that there are a number of complications
| (getting on and off is a challenge), but it seems like it
| should be solvable. The technology has only improved over the
| years, especially the batteries. This should be doable.
| nradov wrote:
| The wheelchair version actually came out _before_ the Segway.
|
| https://news.yahoo.com/the-i-bot-a-mission-to-
| revolutionize-...
| jeffreygoesto wrote:
| From my own (admittedly limited) experience with riding a
| Segway and my own (day to day) experience with a child that
| can't sit, stand or walk, I would guess that it is a)
| difficult to get in and out and b) difficult to balance and
| steer.
|
| Extra mechanical stabilizers are in the way when you finally
| are on/in and without the Segway was really stubborn and
| threw me and others off in the beginning. A person without
| proper sense and ability to balance, will have big problems
| getting onto it and off again with just the gyros running.
| Also balancing is a really difficult thing to do if you have
| the problems that forced you in a wheelchair in the first
| place.
|
| For people who are ok with the upper part of the body, and
| can lift themselves onto the machine, you might be right
| though. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a "used
| Segway" market that is cheap enough to attract hackers trying
| out new things with them.
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| Talk about impactful work. I wonder how many lives you've
| changed.
|
| Well done. This is something close to miracle tech, at least
| for the people wearing it.
|
| I can't help but feel curious whether they're a viable
| alternative to wheelchairs, or if it's a temporary feeling
| (kind of like riding on a rollercoaster, in that you go and do
| it for the experience and then return to your normal life). But
| that's just my ignorance talking.
|
| Also, fuck the US insurance system. You won't find many topics
| that make me talk that way, but as I get older it feels
| something closer to pure evil. I've met so many people who have
| been screwed over by that system (and personally experienced my
| share of it).
|
| There's a woman I've been texting with who I met at a gas
| station. She was clearly in distress, so my wife and I offered
| her a ride home. To cut a long story short, she spent her
| fourth of july miserable, and when I raised the idea of getting
| prozac or some sort of antidepressant (my own "miracle tech"),
| she said "Oh, I used to be on that. I can't afford it because
| no insurance" and I practically flipped my phone onto the
| concrete. She could be living a normal and happy life.
|
| I can't imagine how much worse it is for parents who otherwise
| need to spend $thousands for alternative solutions like this.
| If you can make it in any way affordable, it'll change
| countless lives, I'm certain.
| fencepost wrote:
| _I used to be on that. I can 't afford it because no
| insurance_
|
| If/when _anyone_ runs into this regarding medications, be
| aware that even without insurance many pharmacies (at least
| in chains) have significant lists of medications available at
| very little or no charge. Companies like GoodRX can also lead
| to much lower prices, particularly on generics.
|
| Meijer has free antibiotics and prenatal vitamins.
|
| Walmart has a variety of medications for many conditions at
| $4 for 30 days and $10 for 90, as well as inexpensive insulin
| options (discussed here on HN within the last month or two -
| maybe not preferred fastest-acting options, but certainly
| better than 'rationing hoping I don't die')
|
| Walgreens has a prescription savings club for $20-35/year
| that has 30-90 day supplies of generics at various price
| points between $5-15 for 30-day supplies and 10-30 for 90 day
| supplies
|
| CVS has some kind of system that I didn't create an account
| to look at but is likely similar.
|
| Costco has a Member Prescription Program and has all their
| medication prices available on the site, and the pharmacy can
| be used for prescriptions even without a membership.
|
| Kroger has a prescription savings club linked to GoodRX that
| has prescriptions at $0/3/6/9, with a membership of $36/72
| year individual/family.
|
| None of these plans are going to cover the medications being
| advertised on TV, but they're going to provide coverage for a
| lot of long-term proven generics that treat conditions that
| have been around as long as humans have. They may not be AS
| effective (or perhaps they just lack marketing budgets), but
| if they weren't at least SOMEWHAT effective they wouldn't
| still be around as generics.
|
| And if you've read this far and are interested in other
| information on keeping medical care less expensive, I highly
| recommend looking up the Arm and a Leg Show podcast for a lot
| of useful information.
| sillysaurusx wrote:
| Thank you! I'm actually going to forward this over to her.
| This is super helpful.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Some of the newer antidepressant manufacturers offer
| income-based coupons that cover the costs of the
| medications, as well.
|
| Although Prozac has been generic forever, and depending
| where you live, you might be able to get a 30 day supply
| for a few bucks. Walmart has it for $4.
|
| The expensive part is regularly seeing a doctor for
| prescription refills. Depending on the state and her
| income, she might be eligible for expanded Medicaid,
| though.
| sli wrote:
| > Talk about impactful work. I wonder how many lives you've
| changed.
|
| $1000/mo for a rental. People without insurance need not
| apply.
| asoneth wrote:
| $1k a month seems downright cheap compared to many medical
| treatments.
|
| Hospital visits in the US average $11.7k for a full
| stay[1]. Antiviral treatments for Hepatitis C like Harvoni
| and Sovaldi cost $16k-90k for 12 weeks, though you can go
| with a generic version for $5k-10k a month.
|
| [1] https://www.debt.org/medical/hospital-surgery-costs/
| chefkoch wrote:
| Try cancer meds, Revlimid is 20k for the rest of your
| life or at least some years.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| It doesn't always need to be expensive, but it also isn't
| always inexpensive upfront. And the comment you reply to
| makes a plea about the price.
|
| Price doesn't mean you haven't changed a lot of lives
| either: In addition, a lot of folks that can't walk are
| covered by some sort of government-provided insurance.
| Unfortunately, it doesn't really help all that much because
| insurance limitations don't always cover everything or
| cover enough.
|
| I'll also say that it is a lot for a single person/family:
| It isn't nearly as much at a daycare, school, physical
| therapy and other such things. I'd not be surprised if such
| places weren't their most common home.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| Expensive, but many families spend more on physio and other
| professionals (150$-300$ per hour). When we are talking
| about children's health and future, parents will raid their
| pensions accounts, grandparent's etc...
|
| Hopefully once they get more popular, the government will
| pay for it to setup in Rehabilitation centers. From what I
| saw right now it's mostly private centers that are buying
| it (US/Canada).
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Everyone in the US has access to health insurance under
| Obamacare. Whether or not health insures will pay $1000/mo
| is a different issue.
| bottled_poe wrote:
| Inspiring. You're doing amazing work.
| pkaye wrote:
| I'm curious why it is so expensive though. Its works out to
| $36k paid over 3 years to own it.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Aren't most things overly expensive in the beginning, until
| the company can make enough profit to ramp up production?
| Tesla cars come to mind.
| blairbeckwith wrote:
| Just wanted to say thanks for building this.
| optymizer wrote:
| I was looking at the videos, and realized that maybe we don't
| need small exo-bones (societal expectations and normalcy
| aside), maybe it's easier to go the other way and make exo-
| robots, since they'd be bigger with more room for batteries,
| could balance on their own and a human could be
| sitting/standing inside, driving the legs with some input
| method - either with legs, or hand gestures.
|
| I'm picturing the robot in Avatar [1], but with an open top and
| much less threatening and not weaponized [2], like big robotic
| pants. If I were to quit my job, it would be to make human
| robot minotaurs a reality, but then again, what do I know about
| robots?
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6ttDZFmGqg
|
| [2] https://www.pcmag.com/news/toyotas-latest-humanoid-robot-
| can...
| nradov wrote:
| Anything wider than 32in won't fit through many doors.
| chime wrote:
| > So, from their perspective, a wheelchair and some pain meds
| can do the job easily.
|
| And not even a good wheelchair. For my wife recently diagnosed
| with MS, they would only approve of a basic, featureless,
| uncomfortable one after I would pay the $3000 deductible plus
| 20% coinsurance. Instead, I got a light-weight folding electric
| wheelchair with nearly full-day worth of battery (15 miles),
| with a spare battery, adjustable headrest for $1300 off Amazon.
| Add an octopus-tripod fan with 10hr battery, golf-cart
| umbrella, bendable cane holder, bottle holder, and an A/C fan
| jacket for a total of $200 and now she is able to spend a few
| hours out with our kids at museums, aquariums, and zoos.
|
| It was literally cheaper for me to buy all of this cash than
| try to spend 40+ hours getting insurance approval.
|
| I absolutely love how practical and solid your product is. I
| cannot comment on the pricing because I have no idea what your
| costs/market is but if my kid needed $999/mo to walk, I would
| do literally anything to be able to afford it. Hopefully the
| costs keep coming down for those with a smaller budget. Good
| luck!
| nine_k wrote:
| Great thing it works this way for mechanical tech.
|
| For chemicals, that is, medicines, paying out of pocket is
| not impossible, but much harder. The $1500 you invested will
| likely last a number of years. Or it might be a month worth
| of prescription drugs; cheap generics do not exist for
| everything (and may sometimes be inferior).
|
| I don't know a good way out of it. The U.S. medical insurance
| system sucks, but my friends from Germany and Netherlands
| report that theirs is even worse at providing any remotely
| advanced treatment.
| londev wrote:
| I've only managed to get more advanced treatment in the UK
| (still nothing ground breaking) by having private medical
| cover in addition to the national health care. Thankfully
| as the national health service covers all the basic care
| it's possible to get private cover for around PS40 per
| month.
| nightfly wrote:
| That sounds _really_ good, and kind of blows a big hole
| in a lot of arguments against universal health care. I
| pay more than that monthly for relatively basic
| medication and that's _with_ pretty good employer-funded
| insurance
| vidarh wrote:
| It gets better/worse. NHS provides universal cover for a
| lower per capita cost than Medicare/Medicaid covers the
| portion of the US population it covers.
| moooo99 wrote:
| > Germany and Netherlands report that theirs is even worse
| at providing any remotely advanced treatment.
|
| It kind of depends on what you'd consider advanced
| treatment. I know a few people with chronic illnesses that
| are dependent on getting their (expensive) medications and
| they never had a problem with that. Besides the
| prescription fee of 5EUR (not 100% sure on that one) they
| pay nothing out of their pocket.
|
| But I've heard from people that that they often have
| problems for example with getting approval for new
| wheelchairs, accessibility adjustments for their cars, etc.
|
| In general it is true that only necessities are covered by
| public health insurance. This makes sense in most cases for
| obvious reasons, but in some cases the limits seem totally
| arbitrary and are not beneficial to the consumer nor the
| insurer. Luckily I am young and healthy so my
| confrontations with our healthcare are limited to my bi-
| yearly dentist appointments, but I can absolutely imagine
| how there are gigantic bureaucratic hurdles when needing
| something remotely special.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Can you recommend the specific model of the wheelchair you
| ordered?
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| nemo44x wrote:
| In today's culture wouldn't this be considered "ableist"? Aren't
| we internalizing the idea of being "disabled" to this kid and
| thus dehumanizing him by building a machine that "corrects" his
| inability to walk?
|
| I've seen similar arguments from the deaf community about hearing
| restoration as "correcting" something when nothing is "wrong".
|
| FWIW I think this invention is awesome.
| CTmystery wrote:
| Are you genuinely curious or do you have an axe to grind? Have
| you seen anyone accuse such an invention as ableist? This is
| exactly what new technology is supposed to do: make things
| possible that were previously difficult or impossible. I don't
| see how any of the culture wars in vogue have anything to do
| with it.
| nemo44x wrote:
| https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-and-
| philosop...
| MitPitt wrote:
| By this logic, any medicine is ableist. Are we dehumanizing
| people with flesh wounds by sewing them up and stopping the
| bleeding?
| nemo44x wrote:
| I don't think so, and I think that's sort of a different
| thing.
|
| I believe the original ideas around this go back to when a
| child is born with ambiguous sex organs. Parents and doctors
| would then choose to "correct" the issue to ensure the baby
| is either a boy or a girl, when in actuality it may have
| chromosome's that are not XX or XY. So then this (which is
| actually a really interesting debate) has cascaded into the
| greater world of disabilities. So there are currently
| critical theorists in the universities "theorizing" that
| looking at disabilities as something that needs to be
| corrected and not something that is normal puts people with
| them on the margins of society.
|
| So there is well regarded (by some) literature that fixing
| deafness is wrong and that society shouldn't see it as a
| disability - that society should adapt to be seamlessly
| inclusive for deaf people. And this goes on and on.
|
| In essence, science is racist and it has been white men who
| have classified what is normal and what is not and who is to
| say that everyone is normal and "correcting" these things is
| actually, well, "ableist".
|
| It can get pretty crazy (whoops, that's a naughty word) out
| there.
| MitPitt wrote:
| If by adapting (for example) blind people into society they
| mean writing in braille everywhere and so on, then it's the
| same as if correcting their disability. An exo-exo-
| skeleton, extended to the whole society.
|
| So it's just demagoguery.
| nemo44x wrote:
| I think the analogy would be if they could make them see
| again.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| I've been making my own, purely as a pipe-dream to have some hope
| of walking again, it's not easy but I'm hoping it'll be a better
| fit than consumer ones, and probably cheaper.
|
| I feel like we've made leaps and bounds in prosthetics this past
| decade but orthotics and exoskeletons haven't been following the
| trend for some reason. As an engineer I imagine there are some
| significant design constraints that make it hard but seeing what
| we're capable of doing in any other industry I can't help but
| feel the problem has to be something other than purely technical
| limitations. The price is also a big issue, 10k for the cheapest
| exoskeletons, 150k for the one in this article.
| hinkley wrote:
| We live in a world where prices are usually set by the
| constraints of mass production. We have trouble accepting the
| cost of custom-made things. Hearing aids can be ridiculously
| expensive. Custom keyboards at least are not quite so
| ridiculous.
|
| Now that some of the earbud manufacturers are dabbling in
| processing of environmental sound, some people may be able to
| use consumer grade equipment, particularly younger Boomers and
| older Gen-Xers, due more to stigma than anything else.
|
| Unfortunately that probably reduces volume of product for
| everyone else, keeping the mean price roughly the same but
| jacking up the high end.
| the_lonely_road wrote:
| My understanding is its the same thing limiting everything
| else. Power. Batteries more specifically. We just don't have a
| way to power anything for very long that doesn't have a cable
| attached to a wall attached to a power station. Honestly the
| ability for humans (and other living creatures) to just DO SO
| MUCH on just a little bio mass each day is astounding.
| anonymousDan wrote:
| I'm sure this has already been thought of but is there much
| value in using capacitors to capture kinetic energy from the
| exoskeletons natural movement?
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> Power. Batteries more specifically. We just don't have a
| way to power anything
|
| There is progress. Japan has been developing assistance
| exoskeletons as an answer to elder care problems: power
| assist devices to allow not-strong people to lift/carry
| elderly people. Interestingly, much development has gone into
| pneumatic devices as they are inherently more waterproof than
| electric.
|
| "In Japan, the commercialization of exoskeletons is already
| underway. Innophys, a startup founded in 2013 at the Tokyo
| University of Science, has already dispatched about 1,000
| units across the country, in particular to Asahi-Sun, an
| elderly care supplier. Lighter than ActiveLink's AWN-03,
| Innophys' Exo-Muscle is a little less quick but offers more
| flexibility for a similar lifting capacity of 22 to 30 kilos
| (48 to 66 pounds). But Exo-Muscle uses an entirely different
| technology: compressed air, which is injected into rubber
| valves that inflate and contract."
|
| https://worldcrunch.com/tech-science/an-aging-japan-turns-
| to...
| mojomark wrote:
| >...Power. Batteries more specifically. We just don't have a
| way to power anything for very long that doesn't have a cable
| attached to a wall attached to a power station...
|
| To be clear (not to be snide, just to improve clarity),
| increased power density is the ability to discharge energy in
| larger amounts in shorter time periods (think heavy lift
| olympians). Energy density is the ability to store large
| amounts of energy for longer periods of time (think long
| distance runner). Some applications, like cell phones are
| quite happy with high energy density, but relatively low
| power density. Others, like an battery-electric drill, need
| more power density but can offset the low energy density by
| swapping out batteries and having a rotable pull.
|
| Great idealic batteries for this application would have both
| large energy and power desnity. I say this because people
| often overlook "batteries" that people don't refer to ass
| batteries because they generally don't come in a self-
| contained cell (they have subsystems that don't benefit much
| from cellular architectures). Case in point are Hydrogen fuel
| cells. I'm not saying their better than Li-ion, but they are
| for certain applications. Often H2 fuel cells are paired with
| Li-ion batteries or supper capacitors to provide improved
| power when transient energy bursts are needed. H2 fuel is
| stored in some tank - perhaps a pressure tank, perhaps in the
| form of Aluminum and water reaction, or for this application
| it may likely be some metal hydride that stores H2
| 'benignly'. However, to your point, even these metal hydrides
| have a lot of room and potential for improving energy
| density.
|
| My only point here is that, cureently, the best answer may
| not be a single cellular battery, but some hybriid of energy
| storage technologies.
| devwastaken wrote:
| Don't forget patents. You yourself can create whatever you
| want, but the second you want to sell it you have to have a
| patent law firm scour over everything, pay dozens of
| companies, get rejected by others, and end up having to
| entirely redesign your product in an inefficient manner
| because some dipstick owns a patent they just sit on.
|
| If we abolish patents innovation will finally be possible.
| ornornor wrote:
| 3D printers are a good example that I recently came across.
|
| There is a patent for a 3D printer enclosed in a box. A
| number of plastics print much better when in an enclosure
| with no drafts and more easily controllable temperatures.
|
| But instead, 3D printers must be sold and function on their
| own without a box, to avoid the patent. Enclosures are then
| sold separately and you end up with a 3D printer in an
| enclosure anyway, but that doesn't infringe on the
| patent... so it's allowed.
| _def wrote:
| And also FDM/FFF in general, which has been around since
| the 90s.
| big_curses wrote:
| Why abolish patents rather than just fix their
| implementation? Patents are very important. Without them,
| incentive to bring things to market falls as all your hard
| work of designing and creating something can just
| immediately be taken and reused by others. This encourages
| everyone to sit around and wait for others to make
| something first, and then punishes the one who does. Why
| not instead rework patents so that they have to be used
| continuously to be upheld or increase the stringency of
| that aspect of them?
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| I imagine it's part of it, but even when you look at
| unpowered devices there seems to have been shockingly little
| innovation when you compare what was available in the 1800s
| and today. It's still a few flatbars with leather/velcro
| fasteners, the main improvement has been with materials like
| carbon fiber to lower the weight but that's about it. There's
| some interesting patents like air cushions to improve fit and
| some weight redistribution mechanisms but nothing available
| for the consumer.
| KONAir wrote:
| -I have next to no clue what I am talking about- Wouldn't a
| "wheelchair as powerbank" be the best solution to get
| people as mobile as possible?
| mustafa_pasi wrote:
| If you don't already you should document your project on
| Youtube. It's a super cool project and I'm sure you can even
| get lots of Patreon sponsors that way and even commercial ones
| probably.
| smoldesu wrote:
| My grandpa, who died before I was born, was wheelchair-bound
| for the second half of his life, and I was told that he handled
| it well, but internally it took an incredible toll on his body.
| When he finally passed away, they found that his basement was
| littered with machinery, engines and pre-cut body panels.
| Apparently, in the last few years of his life he threw himself
| into the idea of building his own plane to restore his freedom
| on his own terms.
|
| Bit of a sad story, but it never fails to motivate me past my
| usual, procrastinating self.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| It's great that you're using him as a source of inspiration.
| The power of older role models today has unfortunately been
| overlooked, but I'm glad you've found it. Keep building.
| AutumnCurtain wrote:
| I worked in a logistics operation that explored exoskeleton
| options deeply in 2019. Options were shockingly limited and the
| best products were not powered in any way - essentially just
| frames to bolster your body mechanically. Compare to the
| massive, extremely precise, and power-efficient automated
| storage and retrieval systems and it just seemed like stone age
| tech. My takeaway was that powered exoskeleton tech must be
| vastly more difficult to implement than I'd expected. The
| financial incentives are there for warehouse and logistics
| applications, but the tech just isn't.
| modeless wrote:
| One issue is safety. A powered exoskeleton with any
| significant fraction of a human's full strength necessarily
| has the power to maim people including the operator. A robot
| can just be put in a cage where it can't hurt people, but an
| exoskeleton can't.
| zeteo wrote:
| > A robot can just be put in a cage where it can't hurt
| people, but an exoskeleton can't.
|
| This would have made a great premise for an Asimov story.
| justnotworthit wrote:
| A robot poses as an exoskeleton to escape captivity?
| michaelt wrote:
| What sort of power sources do current powered exoskeletons
| use, and what sort of runtimes do you get?
|
| That's where I'd foresee the limitations - that you'd end up
| hefting 80 lbs of battery for 20 minutes of operation.
| dogorman wrote:
| Might there be merit to a semi-tethered approach? Enough
| onboard batteries to last a minute or two when you walk to
| another room, where you promptly plug in again?
| dr_orpheus wrote:
| Semi-tethered approach would probably be good for being
| able to use around the house. And I think this would be
| consistent with other medical equipment. Some people who
| require oxygen often have a very large oxygen machine at
| home with a long cord so they can move around the house,
| but have to carry portable machines when they are not
| home.
|
| The portable exoskeleton is a pretty big leap though. I
| think in order to have it be useful anywhere else but at
| home it would need to be significantly longer on the
| order of hours. I'm thinking time it takes from getting
| out of a car to go in to a shop and run an errand and
| come back (perhaps extra battery packs in the car or a
| place to recharge from the car)
| anonymousDan wrote:
| Or for added convenience, what if you had something like
| a roomba that followed you around the house and plugged
| in to a socket in the room on one end and to the
| exoskeleton frame on the other end without any manual
| intervention on your part?
| AutumnCurtain wrote:
| I haven't been in the industry for a little bit, so I'm
| sure the tech has evolved, but the versions we evaluated
| used battery hot-swapping to extend use time. I honestly
| don't recall how long a single battery ran for. We
| primarily evaluated them for use for loads that were too
| light or unwieldy to necessitate a vehicle but which were
| too heavy for a human worker to regularly lift without risk
| of injury (so the 75-200lb range)
| vosper wrote:
| So it needs power to move the weight of the human, plus
| 75-200lb? I'm wondering if an exoskeleton that's only for
| moving a person about might have a lower power
| requirement or longer battery life?
| AutumnCurtain wrote:
| The human bears their own weight, so they need to move
| the exoskeleton + load. These systems are more like
| braces you stand in with strong frames and motors to
| augment your natural lifting motions than "waldo"-style
| full exoskeletons. In that respect they differ from what
| would be needed to help a fully disabled person stand.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I've always wanted to make one that fits like spandex and uses
| things that mimic anatomical function, like nitinol wires to
| mimic muscle.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| Oh that's interesting, I use a spandex-like component inside
| the frame but only to hold electromyography (EMG) electrodes
| against the leg. I reckon you'd still need a support
| structure to hold the 50-100kg of weight of the user though.
| giantg2 wrote:
| That, or leverage the existing bone. It may even be
| possible to leverage counter force of the opposing "muscle
| groups" of nitinol wire using some sort of artificial joint
| designed to take advantage of it.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| I imagine that wouldn't be very powerful.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Why?
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Reasons others have brought up, and that you have
| addressed. (Unfortunately I can't delete my comment.)
| yupper32 wrote:
| In order to mimic muscle wouldn't you need the wires
| physically attached to your body somehow? Getting leverage
| with a spandex like material doesn't sound possible.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Yes, the nitinol is not the only component. You would need
| things to mimic other pieces of the system, like tendons
| and a way to anchor them to false structures or utilize
| existing bone.
|
| I mentioned fitting similar to spandex because all these
| other suits are bulky. Sure, this system would still have
| bulk, but it should be more conforming than mechanical legs
| that sit several inches outside of the person's natural
| legs. Good luck fitting on public transportation,
| airplanes, or even walking through a 32" door if you were a
| bigger person to start with.
| justinclift wrote:
| What's the control method you've been using? eg for input to
| direct the actions
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| None, it's not the exact same problem in that I have control
| of my legs just not enough to walk with them or support my
| weight.
| kelnos wrote:
| I think that maybe highlights another difficulty here:
| there isn't really a one-size-fits-all solution. Some
| people will need full support, and others will need more of
| an assist. Not sure both of those things can (or should) be
| served by the same device. But as soon as you have to build
| different things for different cases, that drives the cost
| up, both in R&D and in manufacturing (it's cheaper to build
| 1000 of one thing than 500 each of two things).
| namlem wrote:
| Some of the unpowered exoskeletons are pretty impressive, and
| all things considered, $10-20k isn't that crazy a price. After
| all, they are not really being mass produced, and are pretty
| complex mechanical systems. I'd love to see a big company like
| Caterpillar get on board and start pumping them out for
| construction purposes.
|
| The powered ones are still too expensive for anything but the
| most niche applications sadly.
| dalbasal wrote:
| I think both exoskeletons and prosthetics suffer from similar
| issues. To reach affordability, you need unit volume. To get
| unit volume, you need an initial user segment capable of paying
| what such a device currently costs. In computing, for example,
| there's always someone willing to pay for bleeding edge, which
| then paves the way to price reduction. With these, there just
| isn't much daylight between prices where basically no one can
| afford it, and prices where everyone who needs one can.
|
| People like you are the best hope. Independent inventors aren't
| bound by manufacturing economics.
|
| Side question: how much power does it take to run existing,
| mobility oriented exoskeletons?
| kelnos wrote:
| I imagine new medical tech is usually covered by insurance,
| which makes it possible for people to afford it initially
| (and even later, when the device is more at scale), but I
| expect it's really hard to get insurance companies (in the US
| at least) to consider covering new things, especially when
| there is a cheaper alternative.
|
| I imagine an insurance company is heartless enough to believe
| that a much cheaper wheelchair is "good enough" and there's
| "no reason" to pay the hefty costs for an experimental
| exoskeleton.
| regularfry wrote:
| Size variation, maybe? If you're building an industrial robot
| you control the size precisely, but if you've got to make
| _everything_ variable - and not just variable, but to be as
| comfortable as clothes - I can see that throwing a hell of a
| lot of complexity into the mix.
| hinkley wrote:
| I mean in theory the motors and controllers are identical
| across all builds, but since the length of the rotating
| pieces is variable, the angles of rotation might remain the
| same but the leverage and hence the torque vary by quite a
| bit. Bigger people have longer limbs, and bigger people also
| weigh more.
| seph-reed wrote:
| Just for the love of ideating: if ones arms were working, it
| seems like there may be some way of essentially diverting arm
| strength between movement, and handling.
|
| Kind of like picking up one leg at a time with your arm, while
| the other stays locked through some ratchet system.
|
| It's just a hazy idea, but it could definitely help with the
| power issue. It's pretty much the same principle as a wheel
| chair in that regard.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I'm near ready to start a workshop, I think we ought to make
| these kind of things more prevalent, a lot of money is lost on
| ultra expensive medical devices with really low value
| (wheelchairs or similar)
|
| giving someone an exoskeleton might be something much more
| joyful and inspiring than a wheelchair, it can revive your life
| hnthrowaway353 wrote:
| My wife is a wheelchair user and it makes me sad to hear that
| some think her chair has low value, when it's very valuable
| to us. She can chase after our 15 month toddler without ever
| getting tired, she can cruise at 6 mph with no problems, and
| she's quite happy with her life. An exoskeleton wouldn't let
| her do any of those things and would significantly reduce her
| quality of life.
| agumonkey wrote:
| well i'm dumbfounded, I'd honestly thought an exoskeleton
| would make people like her happier
|
| i never meant to deny your own experience, I was mostly sad
| about the high cost and limits of a wheel chair.
| Fiahil wrote:
| Have you seen what this, from a few years ago ? Your project is
| different, but it can be a good inspiration !
|
| https://www.ted.com/talks/hugh_herr_the_new_bionics_that_let...
| beeskneecaps wrote:
| This is incredible! There's something really appealing and
| enabling about becoming an "exoskeleton pilot".
| imglorp wrote:
| I feel like it's time to take back the term "walker" from the
| last century.
| runawaybottle wrote:
| This is kind of dangerous. Something like this that is not tested
| can pretty much kill you if it fails in anyway. You'll just fall
| to the ground from about 5 ft, which is often enough to do
| something bad to your skull.
| pomian wrote:
| Then don't do it. Everyone has their own level of comfort. It
| is disappointing to be criticized for awesome innovation by
| armchair advisors. Innovation and progress is necessary for
| humanity to continue. Fear, solves nothing. Super impressed by
| this dad!
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| The medical device industry in France is heavily regulated and
| products are audited before they reach the market so you can be
| sure it's a risk that's been identified and remediated.
| crummybowley wrote:
| Yeah, I think the OP was really talking about this individual
| case.
|
| Eg, this guy put his kid in a device that could kill him
| (maybe).
|
| Looking back at the videos from Boston Dynamics, a ton of
| effort is put in to the failure mode testing. I highly doubt
| 1) this is dynamic, 2) failure modes were considered much.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| This individual case is a medical device company in France,
| not some garage hacker as the title might imply. No human
| (except the engineers on the down-low) will have stepped
| foot inside the device before a very late stage in the
| design, possibly requiring approval for human trials, at
| which point all those risks will have been assessed.
| crummybowley wrote:
| I stand corrected.
| Blackthorn wrote:
| A lot of things are dangerous. Some people would be quite
| willing to accept that risk so they can walk again.
| foobiekr wrote:
| My mother can no longer walk due to an inoperable bone spur
| that has destroyed her tendons. She's 75. She's risk death and
| injury to walk again.
| lsllc wrote:
| You're not wrong, but if you had some of the tech from the
| Boston Dynamics robots, you could imagine something smart
| enough to either retain balance in the first place, or take a
| forward/backward roll to prevent a more serious injury.
|
| The Father here has done a fantastic job, I'm sure his son is
| thrilled to be able to take some steps -- also the low-tech
| tether from above solves the falling problem for the moment
| which presumably lets him get on with solving other issues.
|
| Well done Dad!
| [deleted]
| invalidusernam3 wrote:
| Cars are dangerous yet they're ubiquitous. Risk vs reward I
| guess
| anonAndOn wrote:
| What if it falls into a pushup stance? In my fitter years, I
| could dead drop straight into a pushup.
| brodouevencode wrote:
| The discipline of engineering is littered with catastrophes
| throughout history - everything from bridge collapses to cars
| loosing braking power like in the old Buicks from the 50s. Yet
| we still keep innovating because we know that despite the risks
| involved the reward could be immeasurable.
|
| Besides, this dad doing it for his son is probably taking more
| care and precaution than some nameless/faceless engineer.
|
| EDIT: clarity
| giantg2 wrote:
| A helmet seems like an easy fix for that.
| ciupicri wrote:
| Isn't he wearing a helmet?
| throwaway09223 wrote:
| If you're worried about this, wait until you hear about the
| parents who give their kids bicycles and skateboards!
| skinkestek wrote:
| All I can see is another dark pattern in GDPR avoidance (note,
| doesn't help a bit, this is still illegal since it is opt out
| instead of opt in and doubly so since it is next to impossible to
| opt out).
| chris_va wrote:
| I am not a robotics expert, and I've always wanted to ask one...
|
| Why do these designs always have the actuators mounted directly
| at the joints?
|
| Why not have some high modulus yarn transfer the joint loads (ala
| a bike brake cable, say with high modulus aramid?)? One could
| keep the actuators near the center of mass (or a trolley that
| follows it around), and keep the suit fairly minimal.
| [deleted]
| jcun4128 wrote:
| > bike brake cable
|
| Funny you mention that, this guy [1] made an actuator/arm
| recently doing that technique. Does work but accuracy/flex can
| be a problem.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahSS5HUylT8
| parsecs wrote:
| Curious, could one apply fancy control theory and modern
| computing at the problem and fix most of the accuracy and
| flex problem? Position feedback with integrated sensors can
| be very compact and highly accurate, and human muscle seem to
| also use feedback control for holding position..
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