[HN Gopher] Getting sweet patron money on the modern internet (2...
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Getting sweet patron money on the modern internet (2020)
Author : Tomte
Score : 118 points
Date : 2021-07-27 13:06 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jeff-vogel.blogspot.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jeff-vogel.blogspot.com)
| kevincox wrote:
| Tangent on Paetron:
|
| > you get your money as a subscription instead of a one-time
| thing. The second part is REALLY important.
|
| I agree that this is often good. Especially for some types of
| creators. However I think a lot of people have abandoned the
| store model when it would suit them well. For example I run a lot
| of RPG campaigns and like to grab maps often from people on
| Paetron. However often I only need a couple of maps for a
| specific campaign or one specific map that I like from the
| backlog. I think you can usually subscribe for one month and grab
| what you need, but Paetron doesn't make this obvious and it is
| certainly awkward. I have no interest in subscribing to an artist
| whose next map is likely not relevant to my campaign. If these
| people had stores I would be buying maps frequently, but they
| don't so I pass them by.
|
| If you are making content where most of your audience is going to
| appreciate every post (for example producing entertainment or
| information) then the subscription makes a lot of sense and is
| hugely valuable. However I see this model being used even where a
| substantial portion of the potential audience likely has interest
| only in a small section of the work and I suspect that choosing
| only this model is closing off potential additional income.
|
| I can see why Paetron doesn't offer setting prices for individual
| posts or similar, the subscription model is lucrative when it
| works. However there is definitely a missing piece in some
| situations.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| Fanbox has a pretty interesting model for this, when you
| subscribe to a creator you only get access to posts up to a
| month prior (as well as all future posts), and to get access to
| specific previous posts the creator can make available bundles
| which you can buy for a one time fee. It reduces piracy and
| encourages prolonged subscriptions rather than
| subscribe->download all->unsubscribe.
| bsharitt wrote:
| I've had similar issues with people who make 3d models for
| gaming and I find it super frustrating. I just want a model of
| a Dwarf cleric and maybe other models in the future, but I
| don't want to subscribe to you.
| tialaramex wrote:
| There's an impedance mismatch here, common in both artistic and
| technical activities though not universal:
|
| The artist/ technician does an activity - for which they need
| to be duly compensated or else they're going to have to do this
| for a few hours once in a while as a hobby, since they work in
| the Mill for sixty hours per week. This activity has some
| product you can capture, maybe it's a painting, a poem, a
| noise, an algorithm, a mathematical proof...
|
| The audience would like to benefit from _copies_ of that
| product. And we live in the 21st century so we can digitally
| copy many of the above things essentially for free. The
| audience would gladly _pay_ even though copying itself is free,
| but... how much?
|
| Unfortunately there is _no_ relationship between how much time
| you spent making the Product and either how many people want
| copies of it, or how much they 're willing to pay for them.
|
| So you can't build something that matches these two things
| together. Patreon matches the reality for creators. Trudy and
| Doug write a comic every week +. They would like money, Patreon
| subscribers like me give them a few grand, and they continue to
| write comics. Would I like a comic about Grier, or indeed,
| about Oglaf himself? Too bad, here is a comic about... pirates?
| This model suits a lot of creators very well, and after all the
| idea is to support creators.
|
| In contrast some of the print-on-demand or PDF-download RPG
| sites are closer to the audience's model. If I'm willing to pay
| $5 for a roleplaying game that's kinda like "Starship Troopers"
| I could buy 3:16. I don't care what else Gregor has done, or
| what he's working on now, but 3:16 might be interesting, it's
| less than $5 I can pick that up.
|
| If you, as an artist/ technician, have bursts of interest and
| can't handle commitment, then that's great, Patreon isn't for
| you, when you make something put it on a per-product site and I
| hope you have some other source of income when inspiration
| doesn't strike.
|
| My sister makes actual things, she's an embroiderer (and a
| lecturer, but we're talking about how to get paid for the art
| side of things). So, that's simpler, if you want a thing, she
| can make it, and that'll cost you money. So long as you don't
| waste her time specifying a thing and then not wanting it once
| you find out it's expensive, this is cool. Photographs of
| embroidery exist, but clearly a JPEG of a sixty foot wall
| hanging is not, in fact, a wall hanging, there's no mistaking
| the two.
|
| + Oglaf: https://oglaf.com/
| dred_prte_rbrts wrote:
| For anyone that is not aware oglaf.com is very NSFW. You may
| want to edit your post to make that obvious.
| Zababa wrote:
| A good way to do this is to make a Patreon where you drop
| content each month, and for old content make it available on
| Gumroad for the price of a month of Patreon.
| 0-_-0 wrote:
| I pretty much learned English from Jeff's games, so it's
| partially his fault now I'm here to annoy all of you.
| maerek wrote:
| As a related tangent, Vogel (and Spiderweb Software) were
| responsible for many enjoyable hours in my youth playing through
| Exile III and Blades of Exile. I appreciate the world building
| and storytelling that he's done throughout the years, even if the
| newer game interfaces and graphics feel clunkier.
| dan353hehe wrote:
| Totally agree. I spent a lot of time when I was a kid playing
| through each of the Exile games and their Avernum remakes. I'm
| in the middle of playing through Avernum on the IPad, and I
| love the setting of being outcasts sent to an underground cave
| system. The game it self is old, but it is still a good story.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| I wish the iOS Avernum HD was still available.
| Tomte wrote:
| Do you mean something else than this?
| https://apps.apple.com/de/app/avernum-escape-from-the-pit-
| hd...
|
| I looked it up today and it was available, also the other
| five Avernum games.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Ah, I didn't realize it was iPad only. I searched on my
| phone and didn't see any results (though I played it on
| an iPad years ago).
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| The author did a great GDC talk about being an indie developer in
| the brick and mortar, pre-steam days. He talks at one point about
| how people had to buy a shareware cd from some kiosk, then phone
| him, argue about the price, mail him a cheque or money order,
| then wait for a cdrom in the mail to buy a game from him back
| then, but he made it work and is still going
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| I have mad respect for anyone who is willing to take the risk of
| not being able to eat, on the hopes that strangers will support
| them, in order to do what they love.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Most Patreon artists I've seen have transitioned to Patreon
| from other platforms, such as from Youtube or from releasing
| early versions of their side projects.
|
| I think most people have a job next to their Patreons right
| until they make enough Patreon money to live reasonably
| comfortably. That definitely makes the whole thing less risky.
| You need to have a passion for what you do in order to make it
| that far, though.
| willturman wrote:
| The widely embraced alternative is to take the risk of not
| being able to eat, on the hopes that strangers will support
| what your company is doing, in order to do something you hate.
| rob74 wrote:
| A few caveats:
|
| - In most civilized countries (the US being a notable
| exception) there is a degree of legally mandated job
| security, so the likelihood of losing your ability to put
| food on the table from one day to the next is reduced if you
| work for a company.
|
| - Most companies (startups being an exception of course)
| already have a working business model, so the likelihood of
| people suddenly not giving them any money anymore is also
| reduced.
|
| - _Some_ people (me and many other developers included)
| actually _do_ like their job - maybe not all parts of it, but
| generally speaking...
| mrspeaker wrote:
| It doesn't even have to be something you hate - but it's
| something that's not yours.
| [deleted]
| egypturnash wrote:
| My experience is that Kickstarter and Patreon combine nicely.
| Patreon lets my wealthier fans fund the process of drawing
| whatever weird shit the Muses ask me to draw; Kickstarter helps
| me get all my fans together to make sure I have enough pre-sales
| to pay for a print run of a graphic novel or art book or
| whatever. And no, I don't draw pictures of corporate characters
| getting it on.
|
| Kickstarting the funds for the entire creative process of a thing
| is risky as fuck. Scope creep happens. External events happen.
| It's become the norm in some fields like games but it is risky as
| fuck no matter _how_ many projects you have taken to completion.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Very fun article. I do think there is another way that is very
| much The Long Game but may offer the highest payoff / security in
| the long run:
|
| * become very good at a highly gamedev-relevant and marketable
| skill (e.g. graphics programming)
|
| * parlay skill into well-paying job that uses and further hones
| that skill
|
| * as you work the job and save/invest aggressively, start
| building games on the side using the skills you've developed
|
| * after 5-15 years, if you still want to make indie games, you'll
| have enough money to do it full time without needing outside
| funding, plus a vast amount of relevant skill and experience to
| help you succeed
|
| Con: takes forever, to the point where you might die before you
| get to finish a game
|
| Pros: you are not truly fucked if you fail at indie gamedev /
| realize you don't want to do it anymore; if you manage to carry
| out the full plan, you can make exactly what you want, since you
| won't need your games to make money
|
| This is the route I'm taking - I'll update with my progress in 5
| years or so
| TheHideout wrote:
| Good luck, I'm working this same plan here! I also do contract
| game dev on the side which helps me work out engine ideas /
| tooling [0].
|
| [0] https://doctorarcana.com/
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Multiple positive reviews from Steam players with 5+hr
| playtime is already a big achievement, congrats & good luck
| TheHideout wrote:
| thanks!
| gabereiser wrote:
| lol, this exactly describes my career and entry into indie
| games about a decade ago. It sounds reasonable but don't do it.
| You'll find by the time you can create that game you've been
| wanting to make, graphics pipelines and technology will pass
| you by making your idea irrelevant. So you end up making a
| quick game to make a quick buck and go back into the workforce
| a little bit richer. [1]
|
| If you want to make games, or software, or any product, you
| have to hit while the iron is hot otherwise someone else will
| come along and beat you to it. Even if you invest aggressively,
| it's better to just keep doing that and retire than waste it on
| that pet project you had your eye on for 20 years.
|
| [1]:
| https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/xbox360/958447-alchemist/video...
| gabereiser wrote:
| and yes, I realize the game I referenced was basic, had UX
| issues, and was more or less a cash grab on xbox360. I made
| it using my game engine that I spent 2 years writing, but the
| game showcased only took me 15 days to write. After release,
| I just went back to work.
| juanuys wrote:
| > This is the route I'm taking - I'll update with my progress
| in 5 years or so
|
| Nice one, mate. Good luck. I'm doing the same, so right behind
| you :)
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Good luck to you as well! :)
| gbba wrote:
| I had a similar plan when I started my career, where the idea
| was to save and self-support independent endeavors.
|
| 13 years later: I can execute the "full plan" at any time, but
| I find myself to have sufficient autonomy and be comfortable
| enough at my current position.
|
| This plan is certainly not the highest payoff in my case, as I
| can't buy the toys/houses my peers have. However work/life
| balance is great, and I still have the option to build things
| without needing outside funding.
| SamBam wrote:
| This sounds a little like the Key and Peele sketch where they
| plan a bank heist. The plan is to work for the bank for many
| years, and every month the bank will deposit some of its
| money directly into their own accounts.
| gbba wrote:
| 17 more years and leave like nothing happened :P
| mayoff wrote:
| https://www.cc.com/video/acaxis/key-peele-the-heist
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Great to hear that it can work, and has worked for you.
| Congrats & thank you for the inspo
|
| Houses and toys are plentiful and of low value. The payoffs I
| have in mind are the great luxury of being able to afford
| creative freedom and integrity, and the pleasures of mastery.
| Sounds like you are rich in all that - the wise person's
| wealth
| weinzierl wrote:
| > _" I can execute the "full plan" at any time, but I find
| myself to have sufficient autonomy and be comfortable enough
| at my current position."_
|
| I don't know if you realize it, but there is probably a
| strong connection between the "I can execute the 'full plan'
| at any time" part of your life and the "autonomy and [..]
| comfortable [..] position" part. In other words: In our times
| there is no downside in preparing your independence and
| working on your autonomy except that it is a lot of work.
| There is no real alternative either, even and especially if
| you plan to be dependently employed until retirement. Once
| you are in a dependent position and you don't have the option
| to leave short term, sadly the risk of being taken advantage
| of is real.
| ryandrake wrote:
| > as you work the job and save/invest aggressively, start
| building games on the side using the skills you've developed
|
| As always when this topic comes up on HN, check your employer's
| IP assignment policy in your employment agreement before you
| moonlight or work on side projects that you think you might own
| or make money from in the future. Some are limited to what you
| make on company equipment / company time, others claim
| everything you make at home or at work, using any equipment.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Thanks for the always useful reminder. The plan is indeed to
| work outside the game industry itself, with an eye in part to
| reducing the chance of this being an issue. Also so my hourly
| rate can be a solid double what it would be in AAA, ha
|
| I will also add that I am always delighted to violate
| contract terms that impinge on my personal creative and
| commercial agency to the extent I can get away with. I am not
| about to let myself feel bound by something I had to sign in
| order to eat, except insofar as is prudent and serves my
| interests
|
| That said, I do also think these noncompete/IP clauses can be
| reasonable sometimes. I wouldn't work on a commercial indie
| match 2 game while employed by a AAA match 3 developer
| sdoering wrote:
| I wanted to write something to the effect of me being happy
| that stuff like this would not fly in Germany because...
|
| ... damn was I wrong. And even if I already read contracts
| very, very carefully I will in addition have something new to
| look for, as even so called "Freizeitwerke" (works during
| free time) could be claimed exclusively by an employer.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| One interesting different is that in most of the US you're
| usually in the clear if whatever you work on isn't related
| to your employer's business (although that can be a bit
| nebulous). However my understanding is that in Germany,
| even if your side project isn't related to your employer's
| business you're still required to give them first dibs at
| licensing any IP you create.
| stopnamingnuts wrote:
| I've been guilty once or twice of forming a strong (usually
| self-righteous) opinion only to have it collapse before I
| get a chance to enjoy smugly lecturing the Internet. This
| is interesting. Thanks for posting anyway.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Definitely don't use employer equipment to produce work that
| you intend to profit from.
|
| As always, consult a lawyer and understand the implications
| of any IP assignment clauses in employment contracts. That
| said, IP assignment clauses are generally intended to cover
| works related to your employment. If your day job is writing
| SaaS backend code in Java, a reasonable employer has no
| interest in paying lawyers to seize your indie video game IP.
| However, if your day job is writing video games and your
| passion project is also a video game, your employer has a
| reasonable position to argue that your video game overlaps
| too much with your work for hire and could be at risk. This
| can be true even without an explicit IP assignment clause, so
| don't assume the employment contract is the final word on the
| matter.
|
| Ironically, this means it's safer to work a non-gamedev day
| job if your goal is to make video games on the side.
|
| The easiest path might be the one mentioned above: Work a
| standard day job that pays well, build up a comfortable
| amount of savings for a decade, and then use that cushion to
| do what you want. The failure rate for indie game devs is
| massive, so plan career paths and finances such that it won't
| be the end of the world if it doesn't work out.
| WJW wrote:
| You probably already know this, but on the off chance somebody
| has not seen this before: the FIRE community has a lot of
| additional advice, know-how and general support to help refine
| and execute this style of life-plan.
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Thank you!!
| cushychicken wrote:
| This is a great route for just about any kind of tech adjacent
| creative profession.
|
| Source: me, who is taking part in The Quittening to test out
| whether it's viable or not.
| BrS96bVxXBLzf5B wrote:
| The author of the article, Jeff Vogel, is a few steps (25
| years) ahead of you.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs (like the article,
| a humour-laced talk, enjoyable)
| wly_cdgr wrote:
| Looks fantastic, thank you for sharing!
|
| Here's a random favorite of mine, as a thank you:
| https://youtu.be/_4iswqa8r-Q
|
| Not a business talk, but a design deep dive from a genre
| master. Existential breakdown starts ~20:30
| austincheney wrote:
| > as you work the job and save/invest aggressively, start
| building games on the side using the skills you've developed
|
| Oh the dreams of young single childless people.
| njharman wrote:
| As a 50 yr old childless bachelor I can attest that
| relationships and offspring are the biggest time, energy and
| financial sinks.
|
| Not saying it anit worth it, just that you will expend
| %50-150 of your resources depending on how responsible a
| partner and parent you are.
| Danieru wrote:
| > Oh the dreams of young single childless people.
|
| Two kids + wife + mortgage and I managed it.
|
| Even better I can report: you do not need full FIRE and 15+
| years of career. All the indies I know who "failed" returned
| to the industry with yet better jobs than prior. Ours is an
| industry where experience itself becomes security. Game's
| tooling changes slowly. While hordes are fighting for the few
| entry level positions every team actual wants is experienced
| people. Thus once you get into the games industry and stay,
| the jobs get better.
| sdoering wrote:
| I really, really enjoyed the writing style. It made me smile, it
| made me laugh and it also showed potential way of making money
| for artists/indies on the net.
|
| For me it also showed how the net created new gatekeepers (be it
| app stores, patreon, kickstarter or any other platform) that feel
| like the new lords while creators still are but the serfs (albeit
| with a little bit more freedom to choose ones lord).
| kijin wrote:
| Speaking of busking, how could you leave out YouTube? It might
| not be particularly useful for indie game devs, and you might not
| like it, but nobody can deny that YouTube is currently the most
| well-known place on the planet for people to sing, dance, do
| crazy shit, or maybe just film their cats and make money out of
| it. YouTube even has a system that allows channel owners to
| collect recurring donations, somewhat like Patreon.
| dexterhaslem wrote:
| It would be cool to know the % of active uploaders that make
| money on videos
| jsmith45 wrote:
| It can depend in part on what you mean by make money, and
| what the purposes are.
|
| If you mean greater than 0 revenue from YouTube, probably the
| majority of content creators that try to do so will. (There
| are people who simply use it for video sharing, and have no
| interest in monetization at all).
|
| If you mean make a profit after paying themselves even a
| fraction of minimum wage for their time? Probably a fairly
| small percentage, although I know of plenty of creators who
| post content on YouTube more as advertisement for their main
| revenue source (such as streaming on Twitch, taking
| commissions on some form of artistic endeavor, etc).
|
| In some cases the marginal time costs of putting a video up
| are negligible compared to performing the activity in the
| video, and the videoed activity was something they were going
| to do anyway. That can make doing YouTube profitable more
| easily, even if the activity in question is not profitable
| overall.
|
| For example, somebody is going to spend 200 hours sculpting
| something (might be their hobby or perhaps somebody
| commissioned it from them), and they decide to set up a
| camera so they can create a time-lapse video of them doing it
| and upload to YouTube. In that case they only need to make
| enough to cover the time to edit the video together to make
| recording and posting to YouTube start to become profitable.
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