[HN Gopher] Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech...
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Japan pitches 'Society 5.0' to keep its edge in tech and science
Author : okareaman
Score : 164 points
Date : 2021-07-26 14:25 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (asia.nikkei.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (asia.nikkei.com)
| Iwan-Zotow wrote:
| Without birth grows or immigration issue resolved there would be
| no edge
| AlbertCory wrote:
| "Japan getting an edge with future technology!" When have I heard
| that before?
|
| Oh, yeah, it was 1983:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Generation-Artificial-Intellige...?
| debarshri wrote:
| Is the Society 5.0 also funded by vision fund?
| throwaway284534 wrote:
| That's all well and good but IMO this isn't inspiring any
| confidence. Japanese companies make some incredible tech that
| never finds its way off the showroom floor. And worse, There's
| little interest in marketing their technologies to foreign firms.
|
| I wish there was more in this plan to attract foreign talent, and
| offer easier access to investment for individual entrepreneurs.
| _edd wrote:
| I've had the opposite experience with one of the largest ISPs
| in Japan. We were supposed to have a lucrative deal between
| both companies but our side fucked up. Instead of a polished
| working product, it didn't pass basic tests by their engineers.
| Nonetheless, we were given a few opportunities to remedy the
| problem.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I sure do love my Ryobi tools. They have a hobby-user
| engineering and price point, and features for people who are
| bad with tools, like myself. Some plastic makes it light /
| cheap. Brushed motors because of the lighter workload. Plenty
| of guide lights that you don't find on Dewalt. Half the price.
|
| Hell, the Toyota Tundra is one of the best loved pickups
| around. It feels like a Ryobi pickup: For the light workload,
| probably urban, non-career-hauler.
| coopsmoss wrote:
| I'm pretty sure Ryobi just licenses their name, and the tools
| are designed/made by Hong Kong's Techtronics. I don't think
| you can even buy Ryobi tools in Japan.
| keewee7 wrote:
| >Japanese companies make some incredible tech that never finds
| its way off the showroom floor
|
| Japanese tech does find its way into industrial robotics and
| CNC.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| 1) Japan doesn't want foreigners.
|
| 2) Their central bank owns everything, hence their stock market
| is frozen.
| warent wrote:
| Agreed. From my perspective, the Japanese are so hostile to
| foreigners/immigrants that it's borderline xenophobia. I'm not
| seeing a way forward for them as a technological power again
| until they first address some of their social issues. It's like
| someone wanting to become a marathon runner while refusing to
| quit smoking cigarettes.
| [deleted]
| tjpnz wrote:
| >the Japanese are so hostile to foreigners/immigrants that
| it's borderline xenophobia.
|
| That's not been my experience over the previous six years
| I've lived here. Initially I had a company sponsor me for a
| work visa but I've now got two relatively straightforward
| paths towards PR if I want it. Locals have been very
| accommodating and have bent over backwards to help me
| integrate into this society - that even includes the older
| generations.
| alephnan wrote:
| > that even includes the older generations.
|
| I've personally found the older people to be the most
| friendly. That was one of the biggest surprises. Not sure
| how much of that is older people just being happier in
| general. This could totally be biased as the older people I
| interact with are either in a service role, or a wealthier
| traveler, which may be more friendly than the general
| population.
|
| It's refreshing to see other foreigners not feel bitter
| about Japan. The subreddit of foreigners in Japan feels
| like a cesspool of people with this dogmatic view that
| Japan isn't like their home country
| spike021 wrote:
| It's been a mix for me. One time I accidentally lost my
| paper ticket for the metro before I had gotten a Suica,
| and an older gentleman hanging out with friends near the
| ticket gates went and bought a new ticket outside for me
| to put into the reader so it'd let me out.
|
| On the other hand, I've met a plethora of young people
| who've become friends I meet and stay in touch with.
| alephnan wrote:
| You can be friends with old people too :p
| spike021 wrote:
| Heh, fair enough! Can't say that opportunity has quite
| presented itself yet but one of these days I'm sure it'll
| happen.
|
| Honestly the funniest experience I had with culture clash
| was one day at a hotel I stayed at in Takasaki. I got in
| an elevator occupied by a young family. As soon as I
| walked in, the little girl, maybe 6 or 7 years old, just
| dropped her mouth open, completely gaping at me the whole
| time we rode the elevator.
|
| Probably not too surprising, assuming they're from Gunma
| or a similar prefecture that doesn't see as many
| foreigners.
| tjpnz wrote:
| >Not sure how much of that is older people just being
| happier in general.
|
| That's the vibe I've been getting which did come as a
| surprise. I think the movies I watched (both Hollywood
| and Japanese) do a disservice to them - especially the
| ojiisan's.
| [deleted]
| runawaybottle wrote:
| So, what are you saying, Japanese over abstract their
| society? That sounds about right actually.
|
| You'll never beat the pragmatism of Americans.
| neither_color wrote:
| Compared to what other Asian technological power? Japan at
| least has a pathway to citizenship for foreigners, China does
| not. In China if you're Elon Musk you might get an offer of
| permanent residence or if you're well-connected to the party,
| but regardless they are not a nation of immigrants(their
| words, not mine) and they're doing fine.
| robjan wrote:
| It's not impossible for a foreigner to become a Chinese
| citizen but for most people it's not particularly
| attractive because you have to renounce your original
| citizenship. Since the passport isn't particularly strong
| at the moment that would mean you most likely need to go
| through an annoying visa process just to visit your home
| country.
| grillvogel wrote:
| >Japan at least has a pathway to citizenship for foreigners
|
| pretty sure that is not true, unless you are of japanese
| descent. you can get permanent residency but not
| citizenship
| alephnan wrote:
| > I'm not seeing a way forward for them as a technological
| power again until they first address some of their social
| issues
|
| Japan closed its borders for a period of 214 years known as
| Sakoku Suo Guo .
|
| The collapse of the Shogunate was because Samurais lived off
| tax revenue on farmers, while the wealthy merchants ( who
| were the the lowest in the class system) were not directly
| taxed because commerce was viewed as an immoral activity.
|
| After World War II, Japan became insular and focused on
| improving domestically, and almost became _the_ superpower.
|
| I don't think they care about being the financial superpower
| if it means having to give up the very thing which makes them
| great ( tradition ). It's a very American ideal / virtue to
| treat financial wealth as the ultimate goal ( ironically not
| necessarily the highest standard of living ). Modern China on
| the hand is more willing to import ideas. That said, during
| the Meiji restoration where Japan rapidly industrialized, one
| of the mottos was 'western technology, Japanese spirit'.
| Covid-19 has barred out foreigners which means less tourist
| revenue, but my impression is that tourist revenue was a
| 'nice to have' since they're here anyways. Only a small
| minority of business owners in Kyoto have indicated to me
| they actively want tourists back.
|
| Japan's preservation of its tradition and culture is two
| faceted. Unfortunately, you can't pick and choose the things
| you think is backwards about Japan while admiring their
| tradition. It's a bundle.
| neither_color wrote:
| It's important to note that part of what contributed to
| Sakoku was overzealous missionaries destabilizing Japanese
| society. Makes you wonder if there is a modern equivalent
| overzealous belief system in the west that has caused
| country after country to to fall into revolution and
| disarray.
|
| _Christianity and the two colonial powers it was most
| strongly associated with were seen as genuine threats by
| the Tokugawa bakuf... Religious challenges to central
| authority were taken seriously by the bakufu as
| ecclesiastical challenges by armed Buddhist monks were
| common during the sengoku period. The Empress Meisho
| (1624-96) also had grave doubts when she heard about how
| the Spanish and Portuguese were settling in the New World,
| and thought that Japan would soon become one of the many
| countries in their possession.
|
| Protestant English and Dutch traders reinforced this
| perception by accusing the Spanish and Portuguese
| missionaries of spreading the religion systematically, as
| part of a claimed policy of culturally dominating and
| colonizing Asian countries. The Dutch and English were
| generally seen by the Japanese to be able to separate
| religion and trade, while their Iberian counterparts were
| looked upon with much suspicion. The Dutch, eager to take
| over trade from the Spanish and Portuguese, had no problems
| reinforcing this view. The number of Christians in Japan
| had been steadily rising due to the efforts of
| missionaries, such as Francis Xavier and daimyo converts.
| The direct trigger which is said to have spurred the
| imposition of sakoku was the Shimabara Rebellion of
| 1637-38, an uprising of 40,000 mostly Christian peasants. _
| legutierr wrote:
| > Makes you wonder if there is a modern equivalent
| overzealous belief system in the west that has caused
| country after country to to fall into revolution and
| disarray.
|
| Communism?
| alephnan wrote:
| > Makes you wonder if there is a modern equivalent
| overzealous belief system in the west that has caused
| country after country to to fall into revolution and
| disarray.
|
| This is quite a profound point. Thank you!
| maccolgan wrote:
| I don't think it's reasonable to look at every country's
| society and demand a US-style society
| deltaonefour wrote:
| It's hard for people in the US to completely respect this.
| Just look at US attitudes towards China. From our
| perspective some of the things China does are Atrocious,
| but from the Chinese perspective it's just normal
| enforcement of rules from a central regime for the
| betterment of society.
|
| Essentially US cultural standards mark certain behaviors as
| horrible in the same way Muslim countries think women
| wearing a bikini is a crime. Very hard to change the way we
| think and arguably maybe we shouldn't change the way we
| think.
| alephnan wrote:
| Yesterday I learned about the case of Michael P. Fay that
| left a strain on US-Singapore relations.
|
| Michael Fay was an American who was sentenced to caning by
| the Singaporean court. The United States felt this practice
| archaic. One of Singapore's senior ministers responded: "If
| you like it this way, that is your problem. But, that is
| not the path we choose"
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| FWIW, I remember this case well when it was in the news,
| and saying it "left a strain on US-Singapore relations"
| is a bit of a stretch.
|
| Most importantly, there were _plenty_ of Americans, I 'd
| bet a majority, that agreed with Singapore. Not
| necessarily that we want caning in the US, but more that
| this boy didn't deserve any special treatment just
| because he was American.
|
| To me it felt like the media (and, in fairness, the boy's
| parents) were really trying to play this up because it
| had the elements of a good story.
| xxpor wrote:
| It's kind of silly considering it was the British that
| introduced the practice in the first place. It's not like
| it's some ancient tradition.
| soperj wrote:
| The entire world feels that the imperial system is
| archaic, isn't going to change anything in the U.S.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| A native-Japanese-turned-US-citizen colleague once told me
| that career advancement is slow, because you pay dues with
| time, not accomplishments. Also, family matters in business.
| So, if we apply that one bit of knowledge I have, I can
| imagine newcomers from overseas are not pushed against
| because they are from another country, they might just chafe
| the traditions. Culture clash.
|
| He works in the US for that reason.
| spike021 wrote:
| >the Japanese are so hostile to foreigners/immigrants that
| it's borderline xenophobia
|
| Have you ever actually visited Japan?
|
| If so, how do you usually behave?
|
| I'm white and haven't really had a single negative
| experience. I've also made several friends who are incredibly
| friendly, keep in touch, etc.
|
| When I've been lost, random Japanese citizens, not even
| government officials, have helped me find my way, even taking
| me over a block away from where they were to make sure I
| found what I was looking for.
|
| Occasionally there are glances and stares but I'd definitely
| not classify that as "hostile".
| blinzy wrote:
| Not the person you replied to but I've been to Japan twice,
| with different people, each for a month across
| Honshu/Kyushu and can definitely say there's a duality in
| how they behave towards foreigners...
|
| On one hand, as you mention, we experienced lots of acts of
| politeness, as I would put it, e.g., being helped to find
| some location as in your example, being helped to
| understand some menu dishes when I couldn't decipher them
| (I had at most intermediate level of Japanese), being bowed
| to upon entering hotels, ryokans, etc.
|
| On the other hand, we also experienced straight up nasty
| behaviour, e.g., someone standing up and leaving the train
| wagon when we sat next to him (and then reentering through
| the next door and sitting far away from us), being
| forbidden from entering a bar because of being foreigners
| (despite the fact I can speak Japanese, not great
| admittedly, but more than sufficient to order, pay, etc.).
|
| When talking with people from my country settled there the
| common negative theme is "you'll never be accepted/treated
| as one of them".
| spike021 wrote:
| >On the other hand, we also experienced straight up nasty
| behaviour, e.g., someone standing up and leaving the
| train wagon when we sat next to him (and then reentering
| through the next door and sitting far away from us),
| being forbidden from entering a bar because of being
| foreigners (despite the fact I can speak Japanese, not
| great admittedly, but more than sufficient to order, pay,
| etc.).
|
| Sure, I observed some of these things and didn't always
| feel comfortable about it. But I wouldn't consider them
| hostile. The way I was told, some of the things about
| bars not allowing foreigners is more that they get booked
| for post-work drinking parties. Maybe that's not always
| the real explanation, but I realized it wasn't a big
| deal. If you're in a large city like Tokyo, Sapporo, or
| Kyoto, there are bars and restaurants everywhere, just
| move on to the next one.
|
| As far as people coming and going out of trains or not
| sitting next to you, yeah, I had that happen. But I'd be
| lying if I said I've never observed or even done the same
| thing here in the US.
| blinzy wrote:
| The train situation is not "we were sat down --> he
| entered the train --> he decided not to sit down next to
| us and sat elsewhere", but "he was sat down --> we
| entered the train and sat close to him (not literally
| next to him, just close) --> he stood up, exited the
| train through the closest door, entered the train again
| through a different door and sat further away from us"
| which is a WTF situation in my opinion.
|
| The bar banning foreigners is not just hostile but also
| illegal in many other countries, if you try that shit in
| the UK, Germany, or Spain (I can speak from experience
| having lived there, but I guess it wouldn't fly in the US
| either?) they'll shut down your venue and possibly fine
| you.
| spike021 wrote:
| But that's not a hostile situation. He didn't engage you
| at all.
|
| He felt uncomfortable and moved away. Maybe over-
| dramatically, but it didn't cause you or anyone else,
| including himself, any harm. Again, I encountered this
| behavior too. It made me feel uncomfortable, but it was
| understandable. Some people just don't feel comfortable.
| Honestly I'd rather someone do something to feel more
| comfortable than let me invade their space and bother
| them.
|
| Not sure on the rules in the US, but bars and restaurants
| can certainly restrict people from entering for various
| reasons.
| blinzy wrote:
| I believe we are interpreting hostile differently because
| for me it doesn't necessarily imply actively antagonistic
| or harmful, it can simply mean inhospitable/unfriendly
| and that to me is a textbook situation.
|
| Here there are also situations where they can refuse
| entry/service, e.g., you're not wearing tshirt and shoes,
| or you're drunk and belligerent, but certainly not
| because of your race, sex, gender, etc.
|
| In any case, to avoid going back and forth on the same
| topic, I reiterate that my personal experience (and my 2
| friends from the first trip, and my partner from the
| second) was that although we had wonderful experiences
| with Japanese people that made us feel generally welcome
| as tourists, we were left with the impression that if we
| already had issues like those I wrote about what other
| problems someone living there permanently could encounter
| (maybe problems when renting, dating, etc.)
|
| I loved visiting Japan, it's the most unique/different of
| all countries I've been to, but the bittersweet taste it
| left in me took away any desire to look for jobs there
| when I left Germany (not my country of origin either).
| blacktriangle wrote:
| You say that as if both the US and Europe aren't having some
| pretty massive downsides from their immigration policies.
| rejectedandsad wrote:
| The US is notably the most immigrant-friendly country in
| the world*, and has been since 1965. Birthright citizenship
| is unheard of in most of the world, but it's a
| constitutional right in America. Even skilled workers have
| a fair shot in America, but I do personally think it should
| be easier and more flexible than the H1B system we have
| today. More immigrants of all kinds are good for this
| country.
|
| *recent president notwithstanding
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| I know somebody who was highly skilled who spent years
| trying to get permanent residency in the USA, but gave
| up, moved to Canada, and got it almost immediately.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| I know people who spend a few years working remotely for
| a US company while 'waiting their turn' to be able to
| actually go to US.
|
| Meanwhile I got invited to apply for a provincial process
| (Canada) while still living in Brazil, and both processes
| (provincial nomination + permanent residency) were easy,
| transparent, and I guess quick?
| dukeyukey wrote:
| > Birthright citizenship is unheard of in most of the
| world
|
| Well, unless you're almost anywhere in the New World [1].
|
| > The US is notably the most immigrant-friendly country
| in the world
|
| I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but countries like
| Canada and Australia give the US a run for their money.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#/media/File:Ju
| s_soli_...
| rejectedandsad wrote:
| You're correct, I do think Canada is going to continue to
| be a major competitor in this regard. They do have a lot
| of our advantages here with a more skills-focused
| immigration policy.
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| > More immigrants of all kinds are good for this country.
|
| The way a discussion works is you are supporting
| something like the above sentence with arguments.
| dsr_ wrote:
| Yes, the US needs to treat immigration as though it were
| the lifeblood of the country... which it has been for most
| of its existence.
| keewee7 wrote:
| There is a difference between skilled and unskilled
| immigration.
|
| There is little opposition to skilled (or educated)
| immigration in Europe.
| falsaberN1 wrote:
| My experience, and that of my colleagues, has been the
| opposite, and I'm a walking mess of a man when not at work. I
| have made very high quality friendships with Japanese people
| and the average Joe isn't any more racist than people in the
| US, I'd dare say they are a lot less racist than people was
| in Spain. They dislike illegal immigrants like most countries
| do, and tourists that think Japan is like an anime and they
| can go around groping waitresses or making a spectacle in the
| middle of busy crossroads. Anything else you can think of is
| nothing the general populace partakes into, blame who you
| need to blame. It's like saying every Chinese person is in
| line with the CPP's interests, that's nonsense.
|
| I never understood why Japan of all places is so demonized
| online. It's far, FAR from a perfect country, but most people
| just do their non-outrageous, boring life things. There are
| no used panties vending machines littering the streets, not
| everyone is obsessed with cute things, there are no child
| wives everywhere and there are no game shows where guys fuck
| their female relatives. With every other country there are at
| least people calling this stuff out, but when it's Japan
| everyone just accepts the fabricated or misunderstood article
| at face value and goes "oh Japan you are so wacky/xenophobic"
| or even "Two nukes weren't enough" (I swear this comes up
| more often than it's comfortable, I'm not making this up).
|
| If anything I get the impression that people is _very racist
| against Japan_.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| I've worked in Asia and I know quite a few foreigners who
| worked in Japan and the country is still very xenophobic.
| It is still common for say, landlords to flatout not rent
| out to foreigners. I've heard numbers like 20%-30% thrown
| around. There's also still "Japanese only" bars, sometimes
| with that literal sign on the door. You'd be very hard
| pressed to find that attitude even among very nativist
| Europeans or Americans.
|
| Japan also still virtually has no legal protection against
| this kind of stuff, discrimination of that type is often
| not being prevented.
|
| That said a lot of the younger Japanese don't share these
| attitudes. Large cities are more diverse than they were 20
| years ago.
| falsaberN1 wrote:
| I don't know, I was very foreigner and I stick out like a
| sore thumb (you could probably spot me from satellite
| photos in a busy street), and I had absolutely no issues
| finding rent, banking and all other services outside of
| obtuse language. Other English speakers I met around
| never had issues with it either, including other Asians
| and even people of color (who you'd think would be
| affected a lot, but Japan's actual racism is very
| targeted to their neighbors, not unlike everywhere else
| I've been at).
|
| It seems to me nobody has any problem with you if you
| make a minimal attempt at speaking using Japanese (most
| of them don't understand English at all and that puts
| them "on the spot", and while you can find some who are
| adept at Spanish and Italian and other languages you'd
| never expect, by raw statistics you aren't going to meet
| one of those in the streets if you are asking for
| directions or something). They seem to be pretty
| reasonable about it if you suck or make mistakes, but
| they seem to really value the effort.
|
| About the bars, I never pried too much, but I was told it
| was Yakuza hangouts and I probably don't want to go in
| there anyway. I don't think locals are welcomed either.
| Not sure if they were messing with me or not, but to be
| honest they didn't look like a place I would have fun
| into if I was magically accepted. None of the actually
| fun places seemed to have an issue having me or my
| colleagues as patrons.
|
| I have far more people checking me out while shopping
| like if I was a shoplifter, giving me weird looks,
| troubling me with paperwork and rent, trying to charge me
| more in restaurants or shops, and generally making me
| feel unwelcomed when I am in Spain. And I was born there!
| (I did lose the accent and I don't look very "typical" so
| they think I'm British or American).
| ogogmad wrote:
| This article suggests that the reason Japan fell behind in
| personal computing, and over-focused on appliance-oriented
| computing, is because of its writing system:
| https://blog.gatunka.com/2008/05/05/why-japan-didnt-create-t...
|
| They use the fax machine over there a lot more than we do because
| of this.
| distribot wrote:
| Are there any books kinda in this vein?
| [deleted]
| BurritoAlPastor wrote:
| What were the previous major versions? Heian period, Tokugawa
| shogunate, Meiji restoration, and postwar/Economic Miracle era?
| desine wrote:
| They named it "Society 5.0" but they don't address the issues of
| their society that will actually cause problems keeping up. Their
| technological prowess is already well established, and does not
| need much boost. However, Japan's got a few social issues that
| will hold it back - particularly the work hours requirements, and
| related to that, it's low birth rates.
| gumby wrote:
| Reminds me of Japan's "Fifth Generation" initiative/boondoggle
| back in the 80s.
|
| Apart from the sheer technical limitations of the age, it fell
| prey to structural limitations. For example I remember when
| visiting I talked with some programmers. Even there, the
| developers sat in rows of desks with the manager perpendicular at
| the end. I asked one why it was like working there and he said
| "It's good, I only have to share my terminal with one person"
| (The terminals of course connected to a KL-20, so they had almost
| the state of the art equipment). So different from my office in
| the US where I had a lispm.
|
| 10 years later SCEI and Nintendo had a more relaxed, "US style"
| office, but the rest of the industry hadn't caught up.
|
| Today though Japan has a demographic need for a big move forward.
| I wonder if they will pull it off?
| adamc wrote:
| Do we have any examples where such an initiative, starting at
| the government level, has worked?
| gumby wrote:
| In the USA: WPA, Atomic bomb, Moon landing, and most
| successfully development of the Military Industrial Complex,
| exultation of the military (integration into Hollywood,
| professional sports etc) coupled with the forever war system
| to channel taxpayer funds to friends in a way that cannot be
| unwound. It's hard to understand the public attitude towards
| the US military 1780s-1960s if you only know the 180deg
| position from the mid 1980s onward.
|
| Great Leap Forward? Electrification of the Soviet Union?
| Elimination of the smallpox virus?
|
| Arguably the Cultural Revolution and, to a lesser extent the
| restructuring of German culture in the 1930s were extremely
| "successful" in that they accomplished their putative goals,
| and also had led to long term changes in those societies,
| though fortunately not the long term changes intended by
| their instigators.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| Japan could make it easier and more social acceptable for
| married women to work, but I know of no country that has been
| able to get its citizens to have more children, once they have
| been reduced (on the contrary, it seems the world over women
| are having fewer children in just about every country, as the
| economy of that country becomes more prosperous).
|
| And of course any child not born, is also a child that does not
| grow up to have children.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| I hear the Czech Republic is back above replacement.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > on the contrary, it seems the world over women are having
| fewer children in just about every country, as the economy of
| that country becomes more prosperous
|
| That observation seems to be generally correct:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
|
| An aspect that is missing from the Wikipedia article however
| is _being able to afford_ moving out or having children - a
| problem that is really prevalent in the poorer EU countries
| (see e.g. https://www.handelszeitung.ch/panorama/hotel-mama-
| warum-jung...). When lots of young people are
| unemployed/underemployed and rents astronomical, they have to
| stay at their parents' home for very long time (in Croatia,
| average is 32 years). Hard to procreate when you don't have
| your own space and privacy to have sex in, and even harder to
| raise children in such conditions.
|
| Many Western countries seem to have adopted immigration as a
| band-aid fix against employment vacancy (Germany recruits its
| healthcare staff from countries as far away as the
| Philippines ffs), but exploiting migrants isn't sustainable
| in the long term - the "brain drain" kills the origin
| countries slowly (good luck finding a nurse on the Balkans).
|
| The _real_ fix would be to improve on the conditions that
| parents need to have children: build affordable housing, (US
| specific) increase employment security by killing off "at
| will employment", raise minimum wages to a level where a
| single worker can feed a family on their wage, and provide
| assistance to parents.
| alephnan wrote:
| Bank ATMs in Japan stop working between 6-9PM, and on weekends.
|
| My debit card got de-magnetized ( like a flaky hotel room key )
| and stopped working at the official bank ATM. It doesn't work at
| most third party ATMs, but I've found the 7-11 ATMs are quite
| robust and is actually able to transact. Seems like a weird
| security mechanism if the official bank ATM can't authenticate
| the card, but somehow 7-11 ATMs can bypass this and allow me to
| withdraw money.
|
| The bank's website also has a very strange username / password
| rules. They can only contain numbers and letters, case
| insensitively. Also, you can't have more than 2 consecutive
| numbers or letters. For example, 'foo2bar' would not be valid,
| nor would 'fo911baz'. 'fo23ba23' works.
|
| One of my friends in Japan is a doctor from Belarus, one of the
| poorest countries in Eastern Europe. She came to Japan thinking
| it was technologically advanced, and was shocked to find that in
| some aspects Belarus is more technologically modern.
|
| I have a very cynical theory about why technology is seemingly
| archaic here. I think the state of digital technology is due to
| structural / hierarchical social reasons that these initiatives
| don't really address. Not directly related to the hierarchical
| constructs, but examples of traditional practices include:
|
| - resumes must be hand-written
|
| - the stack of paperwork you need to sign for an apartment is
| about 1 inches thick. If you're purchasing a property, you'll
| probably need a couple binders.
|
| - you need to create Hanko ( personal seal stamp ) as your
| official signature for some paperwork
| refurb wrote:
| I did some business with Singapore which is pretty cutting edge
| with tech and has a nifty Singpass app that pulls everything a
| resident might need with regards to the gov't - taxes,
| property, license, medical records, etc.
|
| But then I learned that they passed the electronic signature
| act in 2010 and it only applies to some signatures - purchase
| orders, but not property leases, letters of intent but not
| company founding documents. Everything else needs to be on
| paper and often needs a company stamp.
|
| The US, which I wouldn't have considered that cutting edge,
| passed an electronic signature act 10 years earlier and it
| applies to pretty much everything.
|
| It's just one example, and yes, many Asian countries can't let
| go of their paper copies and wet signatures, but still leave
| the US in the dust in other ways, but I thought it was
| fascinating where countries have challenges moving to more
| efficient processes.
| dheera wrote:
| I did an internship in Singapore once. One of the most
| backward things I remember about my time there is needing an
| "MC" (medical certificate from a doctor) when I wasn't
| feeling well one day.
|
| Like goddamn, it was just a minor cold, nothing serious, I
| just needed to stay at home and rest, not trek out to a
| doctor and infect other people on public transit on my way to
| the doctor. There wasn't anything the doctor could do anyway
| other than just tell me to take some Panadol for the low
| grade fever, which I was doing anyway.
|
| If it had happened again I would probably have just gone to
| work sick because of the silly system. _I_ should decide if
| and when I need to see a doctor, not my employer. Considering
| how well-educated people were at the company I was at, there
| 's no reason to not trust people when they say they need
| rest.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| When I lived in Australia I had to present MC if I too time
| off on Monday or Friday. So I used to show up to work sick
| and get sent home because it was cheaper than seeing a
| doctor for a sniffle.
|
| In Singapore we have the MC requirement but I've been with
| the company 9 years so I just tell my boss when I'm sick.
| Don't bother seeing doctor. Unless I'm sick for a few days
| with no feeling of getting better than I go and take time
| off work at that point.
| dheera wrote:
| Damn. Even in Australia? Yeah, I mean, the employee
| should decide if they need medical help. The company
| should trust the employee if they say they are sick.
| Staying at home in bed is a valid way to deal with minor
| sickness and minor injury. Not all health issues need a
| doctor. The body is wonderfully good at recovering from
| minor issues by NOT trekking out when you don't need to.
| That fact should be recognized.
|
| I generally didn't understand at all the bureaucratic
| trust issues in such a well-educated place where most
| people were trustworthy to start with.
| philliphaydon wrote:
| Australia is super common for people to take sickies on
| fridays or mondays to get long weekends hence the request
| for mc. While tuesday-Thursday usually not required.
| Depends on the company tho. Singapore is more strict tho.
| dheera wrote:
| > super common for people to take sickies on fridays or
| mondays to get long weekends
|
| Why not just give them enough PTO so they can get a few
| long weekends here and there, and they won't need to lie.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| That's better than in Japan where people come to the office
| with full blown colds and a mask. Viral containment is not
| seen as a collective good.
| thejackgoode wrote:
| If Robert Sapolsky was in this thread, he would have probably
| elaborately explained why island cultures cling to tradition
| more strongly than the continental ones.
| alephnan wrote:
| There's also a phenomenon where migrants are more likely to
| cling to their prototypical tradition than people who stay.
|
| For example, the Taiwanese use traditional Chinese whereas
| Mainland China use simplified Chinese. Or the orthodox Jewish
| communities in Brooklyn. The Vietnamese diaspora.
| mc32 wrote:
| That's what they say in anthropology, and there is truth to
| it, but I think you could find better examples. Israel is a
| new country that was populated by immigrants by and large.
| Hasids sought others out and settled like places because
| they wanted that culture, on the other hand secular jews in
| nyc are indistinguishable from anyone else (and they too
| are immigrants). China adopted simplified logograms to
| combat illiteracy. Honk Kong was not an immigrant city and
| it retained traditional characters. Cities in Vietnam
| exhibit some cracks in traditional culture, but go to the
| provinces and it's still traditional.
| odiroot wrote:
| > For example, the Taiwanese use traditional Chinese
| whereas Mainland China use simplified Chinese
|
| It may be political though. As in Taiwan keeping up with
| the "true" Chinese tradition -- as opposed to post-
| Cultural-Revolution China.
| SapporoChris wrote:
| >Bank ATMs in Japan stop working between 6-9PM, and on
| weekends.
|
| That's really not the case. It will of course vary by bank and
| by location. Counter Example showing 4-24 hours availablity 7
| days a week in Japanese:
| http://map.bk.mufg.jp/b/bk_mufg/info/BA590467/
| guskel wrote:
| Don't forget the prevalence of faxing as well.
| cbracken wrote:
| This is also quite dependent on which part of Japan we're
| discussing.
|
| As an example, while my daughter's record of birth in Tokyo is
| a printout of a digital record, my son's record of birth in
| Kyoto is hand-written, and other than the handwriting, looks
| identical to my wife's from the 1970s.
| jhgb wrote:
| > For example, 'foo2bar' would not be valid, nor would
| 'fo911baz'. 'fo23ba23' works.
|
| But according to what you wrote, "foo2bar" would be OK? It
| seems to satisfy the 'no more than 3 consecutive numbers or
| letters' requirement.
|
| Also, the obvious answer to this is RLE compressing your
| passwords. ;) foo2bar could be easily written as f1o221b1a1r1
| to make it acceptable.
| alephnan wrote:
| Sorry off-by-1 error.
|
| I meant exclusive of 3, not inclusive. So no more than 2.
| olingern wrote:
| When I went to register my apartment in Musashino, a woman went
| and found a physical folder, thumped what looked to be 10+
| pounds of paper onto the desk between us, and then proceeded to
| find my apartment. It was found 10+ minutes later.
|
| I was both amazed at the organization and horrified at the
| inefficiency.
| alephnan wrote:
| > I was both amazed at the organization
|
| I used to be impressed by the organization, but as I look at
| my shelves of Muji document filers, I realized the
| organization is necessary.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Isn't Belarus one the most rapidly innovating on the digital
| society ? or is it another eastern country .. I forgot.
|
| That said banking may not be the best example about japan.. for
| a long time everything mobile was years ahead in japan.
|
| Maybe all brains died at Sony Computer Entertainment :)
| ekabod wrote:
| Belarus main cities are modern. It didn't not feel like a
| poor country during my visits.
| agumonkey wrote:
| but is it still a poor country or just a slightly ignored
| post USSR small block people really knew.
| javier123454321 wrote:
| Might be thinking about Estonia, or E-stonia.
| agumonkey wrote:
| could be yeah
| havetocharge wrote:
| The "strange" password limitations are probably due to some
| mainframe backing authentication.
| jhgb wrote:
| Or maybe some weird TRON thing? I know that Japan has some
| interesting and widespread-yet-exotic-for-us embedded things,
| some of which are bound to end up in their ATMs.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| The broader "this" seems at the root of a lot of Japanese IT
| anachronisms.
|
| Incredibly conservative culture (especially with regards to
| business hierarchy) + early social digitization = huge number
| of antiquated systems
|
| The typical way things would finally get replaced in most
| companies ("If you're not migrated by X date, we're cutting
| it off, and your stuff will stop working") seems pretty
| anathema to Japanese corporate political expectations ("Don't
| make someone else look bad").
| drstewart wrote:
| >I think the state of digital technology is due to structural /
| hierarchical social reasons that these initiatives don't really
| address.
|
| Maybe a trite / cliche saying now, but the quote about Japan
| being the most futuristic society you could imagine in the
| 1990s just rung so true after visiting.
| stopnamingnuts wrote:
| I suspect I hit the sweet spot when I lived in Japan from
| 1993-1995 if I interpret your comment correctly. I remember
| being impressed by the tech. For example: ATMs into which one
| inserted not only a card, but also a transaction book which
| would be mechanically updated (versus spitting out a slip). I
| still have mine. We're talking about Japan so, naturally, my
| bank book features Snoopy prominently on its cover.
| cactus2093 wrote:
| I also lived in Japan in the mid 90's. I was a kid so of
| course my memory is probably pretty skewed and I have no
| idea about grownup things like ATMs, but I remember the
| tech being absolutely amazing. All the game consoles were
| Japanese (nintendo, sega, playstation) and often got
| releases first before the US. The arcades were incredible,
| I remember playing arcade versions of essentially DDR and
| guitar hero/rockband like 5 years before they caught on in
| the US. Cell phones also seemed to be a few years ahead of
| the US (back when flip phones were the rage and smaller was
| better). Complex vending machines were pretty common, e.g.
| making things like multi-step hot coffee drinks, I think it
| was probably a full 15 years later that I first saw one of
| these in the US.
|
| It's fascinating and also kind of sad to me how much less
| relevant Japan today seems to be as far as consumer tech
| goes.
|
| Looking back, I also think a big part of it was Tokyo as a
| city just being on a totally different scale than anything
| else I had experienced. In the 90's I don't think there was
| anywhere in the US remotely similar to a place like
| Shinjuku. Now days I think parts of midtown Manhattan or
| perhaps in other ways the Vegas strip might have a little
| bit of a similar energy, but I had never been to either of
| those as a child, and back then they were much different
| than they are today anyway.
|
| The ease of getting around by fast, reliable trains (and
| especially bullet trains) also seemed super futuristic to
| me back then. Of course that part is still pretty far ahead
| of the US to this day.
| da39a3ee wrote:
| That might not be a Japan thing: in the late 1990s /
| 2000s the US was behind Europe (as well as many bits of
| first-world Asia I guess) with respect to cell phones and
| consumer banking. For example, free SMS messages came
| late to the USA. And the USA still doesn't really
| understand debit cards (think about all the times in the
| US that you hand over a debit card with a Visa symbol and
| the cashier says "debit or credit?"; all they do in the
| rest of the world is scan the fucking card and let the
| system figure out where the money comes from.)
| [deleted]
| NavinF wrote:
| I haven't been asked that question in a long long time in
| the US. The cashier just swipes it.
|
| Then again, I don't know anyone that uses a debit card
| after high school. Not using a credit card kinda implies
| that they're financially irresponsible right now (leaving
| cash back/points on the table) or were in the past and
| ruined their credit.
| entropyie wrote:
| FWIW, this is not even remotely true in Europe. People
| use debit cards day to day, more likely to use a credit
| card if they don't have enough in the bank I suspect. At
| least where I am, there isn't much to be had in terms of
| points or whatever.
| cactus2093 wrote:
| In the US every merchant factors in an extra 3-4 cents on
| every dollar for credit card transaction costs on all of
| their prices. If you pay with cash or debit card you eat
| that cost yourself, if you pay with a credit card you can
| make back like 2 - 4 cents of that amount depending on
| the purchase category, and it can really add up over
| time.
|
| It's a very bizarre system, and incredibly regressive,
| and would actually probably be pretty simple to get rid
| of with federal legislation. I actually can't believe
| none of our current wave of progressive politicians have
| thought to come after it yet.
| the-dude wrote:
| You forgot to tell about the cheques.
| novok wrote:
| My pet theory as to why is the 90s is when japan was at its
| peak productive (late 20s, early 40s) population
| demographics, and now with the county having more seniors
| than children, they are stuck in the past, since the
| dominant age group still wields all the political and
| business power. The olds see no reason to change, as olds
| are prone to do.
|
| You see it in the USA today too with their aging boomer
| ruling class, but since its not as bad as japan, they're
| not staying as stuck in the past.
| kace91 wrote:
| Wait, were those not universal?
|
| I'm from Spain and I remember those transaction books from
| my childhood (I was born in 1991).
|
| By the time I was old enough to get my first debit card
| they were long gone though.
| ErneX wrote:
| Those still exist and the ATMs still accept them. For
| savings accounts, you introduce the thing and it prints
| on all the pages it needs.
| jholman wrote:
| Bank books worked like that in Canada in the late 80s or
| early 90s, yeah. It's interesting what seems impressive.
| rwmj wrote:
| I'm afraid Building Societies in Britain had transaction
| books that would be updated by a printer back in the 1980s.
| Quite useful actually, I'm rather sad we no longer have
| them :-(
| namelessoracle wrote:
| the fact that one of their big things to show off in their
| expo is the deep sea submarine they got running in 1991 is
| kind of telling of that.
| yarky wrote:
| > resumes must be hand-written
|
| I like this one, a hand-written paper helps in judging someone,
| which I guess is the ultimate goal of a resume.
| alephnan wrote:
| I'm curious how well this works for evaluating physicians
| isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote:
| I guess it sort of works for surgeons
| mekoka wrote:
| It sounds to me like a measure of conformity, because surely
| you now have to choose from a set of recommended handwriting
| styles that are considered "acceptable". By straying out of
| the standards, you're risking the subjective appreciation of
| the interviewer.
|
| Do they test you on your handwriting during the interview to
| make sure that _you_ wrote your resume? If they do, then it
| implies that they truly think that they can _see_ something
| in how someone writes. If they don 't then why not let the
| machine do it?
| grillvogel wrote:
| >It sounds to me like a measure of conformity,
|
| yes. people need to realize if they want to work/live in
| japan stuff like this comes with the territory.
| babypuncher wrote:
| This sounds awful. I have terrible handwriting, and
| handwriting skills are entirely non-essential in my line of
| work. People would be tossing my resume because it's hard to
| read, even though it has no bearing on my ability to do the
| work I'm applying for.
| grillvogel wrote:
| sounds like japan may not be the place for you then
| [deleted]
| chucksta wrote:
| The major US company I worked for 6-7 years ago had a global
| presence, but were all sort of independent. We started to merge
| into 1 formal company, and started reviewing IT processes.
|
| The Japan location still had people walking through the data
| center with a sheet of paper and a pen, going through and
| manually checking servers off a list in the data center. It
| blew everyone's mind
| samstave wrote:
| Having built out infra in Japan - it was a really strange
| experience, esp WRT dealing with Data Centers...
|
| There was this one data center in Tokyo that we needed to put
| stuff into - and we needed a GPS antenna on the roof of the
| DC piped down to our cage...
|
| The DC itself was the most aesthetically beautiful DC I have
| been to; Bamboo forest and waterfall in the lobby, black
| granite everywhere, the receptionists were two beautiful
| women... The place was pristine in look and super super
| clean.
|
| We met with the execs that ran it and they agreed to all our
| requests - to pull lines from the roof to our cage, etc...
|
| But in the end, they said yes to everything, but didnt
| actually do anything that was requested.
|
| It was a waste of a trip (aside from the fun we had while not
| doing work), but it was stunning how much work was turned
| down based on them saying yes, but not actually doing any of
| the work requested...
| dr-detroit wrote:
| its not normal for them to flatly say no and explain things
| to people they deem unworthy of the status that would merit
| an explanation.
| tovej wrote:
| This might be a cultural/linguistic barrier you went up
| against. It might also not be related to what happened to
| you, but it feels like it is.
|
| Japanese use a lot of back-channel chatter when they talk
| to indicate that they are actively listening (Auzuchi).
| This includes saying "Yes" to indicate "Yes, I understand
| what you are saying" instead of "Yes, I agree that we
| should do as you are suggesting". They may not always
| indicate disagreement by saying "No" either, but simply by
| not committing to your suggestion when its their turn to
| talk (or some other, subtler expression than "No", such as
| a head tilt and an intake of breath)
|
| This active listening behavior has apparently led to
| similar misunderstandings before.
|
| Of course, if you made sure you actually came to a clear
| agreement with the execs, it's an entirely different story.
| retrac wrote:
| True. Cliche almost. More cultural than linguistic.
| Plenty of (usually different) contexts in America or the
| UK where "Mhm", "sure", and "we are looking forward to
| moving ahead with that" means nuh-uh.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> with a sheet of paper and a pen, going through and
| manually checking servers off a list
|
| Military here. We still do that. Classified systems have to
| be mustered (counted) regularly. Electronic records can be
| hacked/altered/spoofed remotely. In many situations that
| clipboard on a hook remains a perfectly valid security
| device, especially for systems/weapons/things that are not
| powered up 24/7.
| arp242 wrote:
| In a similar vein, in some countries they just went back to
| paper voting after trying electronic machines (e.g.
| Netherlands). It's not perfect, but it electronic solution
| also doesn't seem to be, and overall it seems to work well
| enough.
|
| There's this perception that "digital = better", but that's
| not always how it works. Actually, in quite a few cases the
| analogue solution was quite a bit better (analogue buttons,
| for example, but also just having some things on paper was
| a lot easier IMHO, like bus tickets and whatnot).
| chucksta wrote:
| Completely understand where you are both coming from with
| ideas about security and "good enough" technique. But
| these were incredibly simple tasks which any simple
| automated system would suffice. Things that could be
| analyzed with a graph and 5 minutes of time to review it
| were taking days.
|
| I also should have specified this was in an e-commerce
| company, so no state secrets or anything like that.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> simple tasks which any simple automated system would
| suffice.
|
| Show me a machine that can go from room to room, from
| vehicle to vehicle, counting rifles without error. In the
| dark. In the mud. When all the vehicles are parked in
| different places every day. Or another regular task at my
| unit: itemizing first aid kits. Good luck telling a robot
| to count the number of tourniquets in a locker without
| making a mess of things.
|
| >>and "good enough" technique.
|
| These aren't good enough things. The human being counting
| things and signing a piece of paper is _better_ than the
| automated /online system. A human's positive control
| cannot be hacked remotely. Go to a hospital and see if
| the surgeons are ok with their tools being cleaned and
| counted by machines, without human backup. Will never
| happen.
| closeparen wrote:
| So can we defund the NSA then? If their conclusion is "lol
| just don't use computers for anything important" why pay
| them hundreds of billions of dollars to "secure" them?
| sandworm101 wrote:
| NSA's encryption trickery means little when the "secured"
| system isn't actually turned on. You still need to count
| things even when they are not in use, especially when
| they are in long term storage.
| spamizbad wrote:
| I sometimes wonder if Japan's work culture that demands long
| hours from workers disincentivizes time-saving "automation":
| In the US, where the expectation is closer to 40 hours, you
| don't have the luxury of always assuming employees will be
| cool putting in 10-12 hour days.
| ensiferum wrote:
| You might be onto something. I read in a book about the
| world's economic history and why the industrial revolution
| started in the UK that one of the likely reasons was the
| rising expense of labour which forced businesses to then
| find more efficient ways to work which lead to machines and
| industrialization. So basically In any setting with a
| surplus of cheap labour this incentive simply isn't there.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| The long hours are largely for saving face in front of the
| team. Nobody leaves before the boss leaves, with full
| trickle down effect. So if the director is working until
| 9pm that means his managers are there until 9pm and then
| the staff is sitting at their desks looking busy-ish until
| 9pm, regardless of utility. Anybody who leaves early is not
| "giving their best" to the success of the team.
| sharken wrote:
| Hmm, my goal is to do something memorable during a
| workday and not just showing up.
|
| Let alone the fact that in IT, you can rarely produce
| something worthwhile after 4-6 hours.
|
| It would also be hard to respect arbitrarily chosen
| rules, that have no proven effect on productivity.
|
| It's hard to see Japan being competitive with archaic
| rules like the above.
| keewee7 wrote:
| >I sometimes wonder if Japan's work culture that demands
| long hours from workers
|
| Japan is placed somewhere in the upper middle among OECD
| countries when it comes to average working hours per year
| and the percentage of workers working more than 60 hours
| per week.
| newfriend wrote:
| Isn't it weird then that there are so many stories of
| massively overworked workers in Japan?
|
| I wonder if those statistics are wrong, or perhaps
| misleading.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Using that same example, you could consider American
| statistics misleading. US studies show that wage theft by
| corporations is a multi billion dollar a year industry.
| Things like that lead to underreporting of actual hours
| worked, hence, skewing statistics.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| There are a large number of workers in Japan. Even a mid-
| range percentage of a large number could be "so many".
|
| By all means, the statistics could very well be wrong or
| misleading, but the number of stories you've heard isn't
| really evidence.
| chaorace wrote:
| I'm not sure if I buy that logic. The U.S. is also on the
| high side, in terms of average annual hours worked.
|
| If we tried to extrapolate that hypothesis, shouldn't it
| imply that countries with considerably lower averages
| (e.g.: Germany, France, Sweden) ought to be considerably
| further ahead in automation than they currently are?
| CerebralCerb wrote:
| I do not know how automation is measured, but a couple
| Americans I've met here in Norway has said that
| automation is higher here.
| indigo945 wrote:
| The average Japanese employee works less hours per year
| than the average American, on what comes down to having an
| additional two weeks off per year (1713 vs 1783 hours
| worked annually [1]).
|
| Of course, with statistics like these one has to consider
| the fact that second-income earners working part-time jobs
| make the statistic skew low, which means that in countries
| where wages are high enough to feed a family with only one
| parent working, the numbers will skew higher despite less
| actual hours worked. I am note sure to what degree the
| statistics address this issue.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ave
| rage_a...
| adventured wrote:
| Japan also doesn't report its work hours fully. The
| notorious 12 hour work days in Japan are not commonly
| reported as such. American workers by contrast are
| (properly) penny counters when it comes to overtime,
| shift differential, et al. Every hour they work over is
| going to get counted and credited. The US has stricter
| labor laws at this point than Japan does.
| newfriend wrote:
| This list is useless.
|
| If you compared two families using this same system:
|
| * Family A - 1 worker, 40 hours per week, 1 non-worker
|
| * Family B - 2 workers, 20 hours per week each
|
| You'd get an average of 40 vs 20, which makes it appear
| as though Family A works "more" than Family B.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> The average Japanese _employee_
|
| Employee is now a loaded word. Does this statistic
| include contractors or just hired "employees"? A great
| many workers in the US, from delivery drivers to doctors,
| are no longer actual employees. Do their hours count?
| harpersealtako wrote:
| This uses the official numbers for average hours worked
| in Japan, which are definitely not accurate as a lot of
| overtime is unreported (and unpaid), especially at
| particularly bad companies.
| toyg wrote:
| _> Japan 's work culture that demands long hours from
| workers disincentivizes time-saving "automation"_
|
| I reckon it's more that initiative is not expected, or even
| discouraged. You will work on what the direct superior
| tells you, end of story. And the more people the boss can
| lord on, the bigger his empire looks like; so there is
| little incentive for middle-managers to pursue efficiency.
| dayvid wrote:
| I was an english teacher in Japan for 2 years at a junior
| high school.
|
| The rep from a textbook company would go to the teacher's
| lounge every semester, bow to each of the teacher's one at
| a time in front of their desks, and ask them what they
| wanted to order from the catalog. The teacher's could've
| easily put in an order online or over the phone and I
| imagine the salesman had to go to each school in person.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Does it demand just long hours or also a certain level of
| busyness?
|
| As walking around with a clipboard looks a lot more busy
| than typing.
| namelessoracle wrote:
| Having worked in a data center. The "walk around with the
| clipboard" kinda still happens. Except its a tablet that
| syncs up with an actual database instead of lots of
| useless paperwork. Easy enough to look just as busy with
| the tablet.
| zeeZ wrote:
| You can't stamp a tablet with your hanko, and faxing it
| is difficult as well. A tablet would require changing a
| lot of established procedures.
| nitrogen wrote:
| Could there one day be a stamp that also has an RFID/HSM
| inside, that signs things digitally but gives the same
| UX?
| BinaryAsteroid wrote:
| I worked in a national Japanese Lab for a year. For me, the
| illusion of tech advancement was shattered when I was told I
| needed to fill-out a form by hand to get access to a high-
| performance computing facility. I got my login and pass info
| about 5 business days after I mailed my application form by
| post.
| dr-detroit wrote:
| you had to be there in the 1980s when all the brand new tech
| apple and tesla are inventing for the first time ever were
| commonplace
| coopsmoss wrote:
| I've noticed this kind of thing happens a lot, especially with
| banks. The institution or counties that "went digital" earliest
| are now hampered by the tech debt and infrastructure from the
| early days. And slower institutions/counties can leap frog
| them.
| donatj wrote:
| I think that's just true about everything. You spend a ton of
| money deploying something, you're not going to rush to spend
| a ton of money deploying every incremental change.
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_handicap_of_a_head_.
| ..
| oconnor663 wrote:
| Yeah I think this is why the US is so behind the curve on
| paying for things with phones. We went all in early on credit
| cards, and those are still mostly good enough for most cases,
| so there's not a lot of incentive to upgrade.
| [deleted]
| twostorytower wrote:
| I feel like Apple Pay is almost everywhere I go now.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| Hotel wi-fi is my go-to example of this. The fancy downtown
| hotels full of business travelers all signed contracts with
| digitization providers who charge $20/night for flakey and
| slow service. The Motel Six by the interstate has free and
| faster connections. For the hotels, there is the added
| complication that expensive hotels often have people other
| than the guest paying for the expenses while cheap hotels
| have travelers comparing on price.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| It's so new, that 4.0 doesn't suffice. Wow
| Aeolun wrote:
| I don't have a lot of faith in the Japanese government pulling
| this off. They botched the COVID response, they botched the
| olympics. Like, there isn't a lot going for them in the previous
| successes department.
| atentaten wrote:
| The Society 5.0 idea comes out of the U.N. Sustainable
| Development Goals, which is also promulgated by the World
| Economic Forum. Japan is calling their implementation Society
| 5.0. Other countries will use a different names or similar naming
| schemes.
| lioeters wrote:
| Here's a reference about the U.N. Sustainable Development
| Goals.
|
| United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs -
| Sustainable Development: 17 Goals - https://sdgs.un.org/goals
| lawrenceyan wrote:
| I think focusing on improving current rigid education, work
| culture, and immigration policies are far more likely to make a
| meaningful impact.
|
| It's the more boring solution, and also one that most requires
| facing uncomfortable truths, however.
| x3iv130f wrote:
| Encouraging diversity in leadership would be a good first step.
|
| Including younger, female, and international leaders in the
| decision making process would bring a lot of fresh
| perspectives.
| i_am_new_here wrote:
| I don't see why Japanese men shouldn't be up to the job
| compared to the groups you listed with their obvious
| downsides:
|
| younger - lack of experience
|
| female - women to the rescue
|
| international - lack exposure to local customs
|
| "Fresh perspective" / " _leaders_ in the _decision_ making
| process " (leadership positions) - Hacker News agrees that
| "it's all about execution" and that "adding more
| ideas/perspectives" as you suggest here might be rather
| counterproductive or at least not a benefit.
|
| It's _software engineers_ that get payed a multiple of other
| (regular) jobs in silicon valley, which sets SV apart from
| the rest of the world.
|
| People arguing like you are either young, not-male and/or
| not-native and want one of the _financially attractive_
| leadership positions for the money. They don 't want or
| promote diversity anywhere else but in this limited area
| (leadership positions), which just quickly exposes their true
| underlying motivation: Hypocrisy and your own greed.
| andrewzah wrote:
| That's your personal interpretation, and in my opinion it's
| quite revealing.
|
| It should go without saying, but I guess it needs to be
| explicitly stated here: it's good to have -qualified-,
| diverse candidates in leadership roles. Obviously just
| putting some underqualified person isn't going to work out
| and it's a bit tautological to state this. There's nothing
| about "young" that automatically means "lack of
| experience", or "old" that automatically means
| "experienced". There's nothing about "more diverse
| candidates" that means "not qualified"- that's your
| personal interpretation. It doesn't mean "more qualified"
| either.
|
| Leadership (and really, all company roles) benefit from
| having different perspectives. When your perspective is
| from generally one group it's easy to be out of touch and
| just start missing the mark.
| i_am_new_here wrote:
| > Obviously just putting some underqualified person isn't
| going to work out and it's a bit tautological to state
| this.
|
| You have nothing to add to my reply so you reply with a
| tautology and to your own defense you point it out
| yourself ?!
|
| Diverse often means to accept less qualification for the
| sake of accomplishing diversity, unfortunately.
|
| It's not the perspectives that matter, its execution. Did
| you understand this?
| andrewzah wrote:
| "You have nothing to add to my reply"
|
| Please re-read the rest of my reply.
|
| "Diverse often means to accept less qualification for the
| sake of accomplishing diversity, unfortunately."
|
| This is your opinion. It's not factual, and I'm pointing
| this out. There is nothing intrinsic about being more
| diverse that makes it lower quality or less able "to
| execute" than a monoculture. There is nothing about
| monocultures that means they are more, or less, capable
| "to execute" in the first place... a lot of them are just
| buddies hiring buddies. It's your assumption in the first
| place that these are efficient or meritocratic in the
| first place. They can be. Many businesses aren't even
| efficient or good at executing.
|
| "It's not the perspectives that matter, its execution."
|
| ...perspectives are what influence execution in the first
| place. You need to be able to execute a plan well, but
| creating a good plan is also vital. Diverse perspectives
| catch potential design flaws and other things that can be
| missed by having a monoculture (any monoculture) in
| leadership.
| i_am_new_here wrote:
| I find it discriminating of you that you distrust any
| ones ability to do the job. In Japan there are Japanese
| people. Who should do the job? They of course, why not,
| they live there. Why shouldn't "some of them" create
| enough diverse views? What do you want? That people from
| other countries go to Japan and enrich them? Gentrify and
| replace them? Will they have/add better perspectives?
| Will they mix or integrate into the local population
| while providing more diverse views and creating a more
| diverse population (also: physically - like "mixed
| ethnicity babies")?
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| While watching the Olympics this past weekend and I recalled how
| the flip phone cellphone era of the late 90s/early 00s was always
| on some other level in Japan. No one in North America had
| anything like we would sometimes get a glimpse of what was being
| used in Japan. Yes, even EU had some of the more advanced stuff
| but it was always Japan at the bleeding edge. So many designs,
| features, video etc. Reminds of the Fast & Furious Tokyo Drift
| movie that showed all the kids relaying video during races etc.
| And movie audiences in NA thinking that's crazy/wow/unheard of.
|
| But then things changed first tipping with Blackberry and then
| iPhone/smartphones and now Japan is nowhere in the conversation.
| (How Japanese _use_ some of their tech /apps/interfaces in the
| city etc is a different thing, culture that's somewhat kept on,
| their relationship with technology has a fascinating evolution
| that's kept them in otherworldly territory in some regards, but
| that's a different discussion) It's all samsung and apple and
| google designs etc. Crazy how that changed.
| mortenjorck wrote:
| _> Cyberdyne 's HAL, standing for "hybrid assistive limb," which
| the company claims to be the world's first "wearable cyborg."_
|
| Whether intentional or not, an homage to not one but _two_
| dystopian science fiction stories is an odd look for a robotics
| company.
| airstrike wrote:
| I for one can't wait until they start fitting the Detroit
| police force with their cyborg exoskeletons...
| fullstop wrote:
| It's up there with Espressif's Skainet [1]
|
| 1. https://www.espressif.com/en/solutions/audio-
| solutions/esp-s...
| ghostbrainalpha wrote:
| No one thinks deeply about the meaning of stories. They just
| like including pop cultural references.
|
| When the U.S. military creates an advanced android soldier
| there is a 100% chance it will unironically be called "Project
| Terminator" at some point in its development.
| ginko wrote:
| I wouldn't call 2001 a dystopian story.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| the film overall is not, but I don't think you want your
| wearable exoskeleton to take any cues from HAL 9000
| m0llusk wrote:
| Maybe some political innovation would be good also. They should
| legalize the herb.
| RedComet wrote:
| We're watching the destruction of what's left of Japanese culture
| and hegemony in real time.
| science4sail wrote:
| I can't help but be reminded of Japan's failed Fifth Generation
| Computer Systems project.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_computer
| KineticLensman wrote:
| That was my thought as well. I was at Uni when it happened and
| one of our profs was convinced that the Japanese would
| immediately leapfrog western computing efforts.
| tyiing8 wrote:
| The Japanese sure love the number 5... 5th generation computer,
| Society 5.0. The number five holds tremendous significance in
| nearly all Buddhist traditions:
|
| https://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/number-five.html
| fighterpilot wrote:
| https://archive.is/oEY6G
| throwaway889900 wrote:
| Society 5.0: Dystopian tracking and extra suicides! Feels like
| another government project that probably won't have much tangible
| benefit for society and is all just a flashy name.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| Unrelated, but why do we need ".0" at the end of things like
| this? I'm sure they won't announce Society 5.1 later...
| whatshisface wrote:
| Semantic versioning. 4.0 -> 5.0 indicates that the new society
| may be backwards-incompatible, whereas 5.0->5.1 implies that
| society will keep all of its existing APIs while adding more. A
| patch version that changed its internals without adding or
| removing any new features would be called 5.0.1, but society
| versioning doesn't include the last digit because civil
| servants don't ever get credit for their behind-the-scenes
| improvements.
| bool3max wrote:
| Stfu
| superduperycomb wrote:
| It's a joke my dude
| makeitdouble wrote:
| I've seen a surprising amount of things with functional version
| numbers.
|
| The frozen vegetable "meat" that's being delivered my way is on
| v1.1 apparently. If people get used to food versionning, I
| think they'll be fine with any other versionning.
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| Significant figures. Without that decimal place we don't know
| how specific the measurement is
| nixpulvis wrote:
| Sounds more technical this way, and avoids confusions with
| "Society Five" sounding like a group of people.
|
| Do you remember Web 2.0?
| layoutIfNeeded wrote:
| >Do you remember Web 2.0
|
| Yes. That was when the Web started really going downhill.
| vermilingua wrote:
| It disambiguates it as a version number, as opposed to a count
| or size. I agree it sounds dumb, but you do immediately know
| what it means.
| dqpb wrote:
| Don't you need two decimals to disambiguate? Otherwise it
| might just be a float.
| plainnoodles wrote:
| I think it gives it a clearer indication that it's a version
| number, whereas "Society 5" either sounds like either yet
| another sequel to Society, or part of the title itself.
|
| Also, point-oh sounds cool in English and just based on how
| much they use fractional percentages in Neon Genesis
| Evangelion, I assume it sounds cool in Japanese too.
| echlebek wrote:
| Oh, deregulation is needed for flying cars you say? Well OK then,
| who cares about the safety of the populace. Progress marches
| onwards!
| alephnan wrote:
| > At the capital's iconic 634-meter Tokyo Skytree, over 200 items
| are being exhibited as examples of Japan-born innovation
|
| Tokyo Skytree is part of the 'All-Japan Tower Association'
| franchise of 20 observation decks around Japan. One of the
| observation decks I went to in Fukuoka didn't have commercial or
| residential units, and appeared to be purely an observation deck
| and one sad little cafe.
|
| Observation deck tickets in Japan are an order of magnitude
| cheaper than the observation decks in the states, which makes me
| curious how the economics work out. With notable exceptions such
| as the Space Needle which was built for the World Fair, most
| observation decks in the states are in skyscrapers that are
| developed with luxury real estate.
|
| Maybe not coincidentally, Fukuoka tower was finished in 1989 in
| the midst of the Japan asset bubble, which succeeded a period of
| opulence and hedonism with the anticipation at the time that
| Japan would be _the_ global superpower, until it didn 't.
| q_andrew wrote:
| I believe the same company owns a decent amount of train
| stations and routes. The skytree was a way to get more traffic
| to a less-traveled station, and it worked like a charm. I'm
| willing to bet that the other observation decks serve a similar
| purpose.
| ehnto wrote:
| I might be wrong, but I believe a lot of them are re-purposed
| TV-towers. Japan has an enormous amount of TV-Towers.
| alephnan wrote:
| I'm curious why we don't see converted TV towers in the
| States.
| Hokusai wrote:
| This exhibition looks amazing. Each time I go to Japan I try to
| find new exhibits, there are so many times that one can go to the
| national museum in Tokyo and finding something new (some items
| rotate, so probably I will go again, thou).
|
| I hope that they repeat it next year, I hope that travel
| restrictions are lifted. I like science and it's fun to see real
| mechanical engineering instead of just software.
| mc32 wrote:
| I don't know what society 5.0 means[1] in practice, but after
| faltering a few decades, it's good to see them publicly redouble
| their efforts into science and technology. I'm excited to see
| what their sea exploration/exploitation technology delivers.
|
| [1]"a human-centered society [helped] by a system that highly
| integrates cyberspace and physical space,"
| i_am_new_here wrote:
| Tim O'Reilly wrote a seminal paper about the "Web 2.0" in 2005
| [1]. I remember reading it and it truly was an influential
| masterpiece "one of it's kind". Since then cohorts of _much
| less important_ groups keep counting up and releasing things
| echoing Tim 's "2.0", e.g. "Industry 4.0"
|
| From a time line perspective we seem to have reached "5.0".
| This time with the prefix "Society".
|
| [1] https://www.oreilly.com/pub/a/web2/archive/what-is-
| web-20.ht...
| alephnan wrote:
| > but after faltering a few decades, it's good to see them
| publicly redouble their efforts into science and technology
|
| If the faltering you're referring to is deflation and economic
| stagnation over the past three decades, the biggest issue now
| is population decline ( due also in part to the decades of
| deflation, and 1.5 generations developing a habit / culture of
| saving ). Science and Technology is good, and maybe both issues
| should be addressed, but I'm curious whether a push for STEM is
| a distraction from these potentially even harder problem
| MattGaiser wrote:
| STEM could solve this problem if you could automate all the
| low value stuff and use the humans for higher economic value
| tasks, but it is uncertain whether you can educationally get
| all people up to that level.
| alephnan wrote:
| > it is uncertain whether you can educationally get all
| people up to that level.
|
| Japan has one of the most educated populace.
|
| > use the humans for higher economic value tasks
|
| People are under-employed.
|
| There is also the social expectation that people work hard,
| so it's not obvious to me if universal basic income would
| be well received, even by the people who would benefit from
| it.
|
| > STEM could solve this problem if you could automate all
| the low value stuff
|
| Japan has access to cheap labor in neighboring southeast
| asian countries. Many of the workers at the convenient
| store are from Vietnam, Philippines, Turkey.
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _If the faltering you 're referring to is deflation and
| economic stagnation over the past three decades_
|
| And yet they have a high standard of living, some of the top
| health metric on the planet, and low unemployment. If you
| look at GDP per working-age adult, they've grow at the same
| rate of the US:
|
| * https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1215628645869420545
|
| A lot of places would be very happy to have that kind of
| "faltering".
| alephnan wrote:
| > high standard of living
|
| And that's why I took a 60% salary cut to live in Japan.
|
| > low unemployment
|
| I don't think Japan having lower unemployment than other
| developed countries is an indicator that other countries
| are worst off. A part of the employment rate is due to
| cultural reasons. There are people who can afford not to
| work, but choose to work anyways.
|
| > some of the top health metric on the planet
|
| The Japanese eat less processed food, eat moderate
| portions, use public transportation which involves a fair
| amount of walking, and just take more sanitary measures
| such as wearing a mask and washing hands.
|
| After a certain economic level, this is also a cultural
| phenomenon.
|
| > A lot of places would be very happy to have that kind of
| "faltering"
|
| It doesn't change the fact that Japan was going to be _the_
| global superpower, until it didn 't. Deflation is a fact. A
| lot of places would be very happy to have the American
| standard of living even during 07-08 recession, but that
| doesn't change the fact that it was a setback.
| astrange wrote:
| > washing hands
|
| ...without soap and without drying them after.
| mc32 wrote:
| They may no have reached population equilibrium yet. Does
| Japan have to exist at 115MM people? Maybe it's viable at
| 50MM. Same for everyone else. Does the US have to have 330MM,
| or can we be okay with 250MM, or China at 750MM, etc.
|
| Declining pops diminish the need for expansionism and
| internal unrest. Less fighting over limited resources.
| JohnClark1337 wrote:
| Lower population is good as there are more resources to go
| around, however there start to be issues as the older
| generations start retiring and/or are unable to work and
| have to rely on the smaller younger generations to support
| them.
| JohnWhigham wrote:
| I think this switch from supporting an always-growing
| economy to one that one whose population numbers are in
| relative stasis will be the biggest challenge of this
| century. It's something we've never encountered as a global
| civilization. And I think it could break said civilization.
| toyg wrote:
| _> It 's something we've never encountered as a global
| civilization_
|
| I'm not sure what that means. There have been periods of
| population stagnation in continent-size swaths of land
| before.
|
| Culturally speaking, stagnation has effectively been
| "official policy" in Europe for centuries, before the
| XIX/XX century changes. It ended simply because
| technological advance by growing societies made it
| culturally unsustainable to pursue ideals of eternal
| stagnation. If you don't grow, somebody else will and
| eventually they will show up at your door. This is also
| the case of Japan, btw. They were effectively forced to
| grow and progress by foreigners demonstrating military
| power and tech that they could not match. If they
| stagnate too much, they are at serious risk of somebody
| else (China) doing it to them again.
|
| If you think a global policy of stagnation would not have
| such drawbacks, you're effectively stating that no
| interplanetary species will ever show up at our door with
| big guns, ever. That's kind of a big gamble.
| mc32 wrote:
| The "always growing" part, I think has a lot to do with
| the stock markets and public companies. Private companies
| can go up and down, expand and contract (it's not
| painless of course). But a lot of this is due to
| expectations.
|
| Society can adjust if it's allowed. Before the 1900s old
| people didn't retire (unless they were wealthy and never
| actually did hard work). Maybe we need to rid ourselves
| of the idea of living idly with golfcourses and driving
| an RV all over the country and instead to add to the
| household, if in diminishing amounts as one ages.
| breckenedge wrote:
| It'll be rough no doubt, but the Black Death didn't break
| civilization, and it was a much more drastic population
| reduction.
|
| I do wonder how we will accomplish really big projects,
| such as properly decommissioning nuclear power
| facilities, with a reduced population. All of the models
| for licensing and re-licensing reactors assume population
| growth, and doing it wrong or neglecting it could lead to
| some really fucked up situations.
| cactus2093 wrote:
| Sure the US could probably exist with 250MM people, in the
| sense that there are certainly countries which are smaller
| than that which are doing well. But the path to get there
| would be shockingly painful and result in a huge decrease
| to the average quality of life. The path to get to 500MM or
| 1B people on the other hand would bring about a huge
| increase to the average quality of life. You have it
| backwards thinking that life is better if the population
| shrinks.
|
| This is getting into a whole other can of worms but I
| firmly believe the most moral path for the US to aim for is
| the latter.
| mc32 wrote:
| Could we? Maybe. I don't think we want to. Not the way we
| consume our resources. We already have water issues in
| much of the country when there is a drought.
|
| We do not need that many people. The planet does not need
| it. We need to learn to live with less and without never
| ending growth.
|
| Just as we target the 1990s or some other period for C02
| production, we should do the same for population
| stabilization. A couple of droughts here and there (as we
| used to suffer from in the past) and we'll have massive
| hunger and famine problems.
|
| We need slack in the system for safety. We cannot operate
| at the limits and not expect catastrophes.
| astrange wrote:
| Peak water use in the US was decades ago and isn't
| related to population growth, nor does economic growth
| require increased resource use. It requires efficiency.
|
| Degrowth is just killing people, in which case the people
| proposing it rarely want to go first.
| mc32 wrote:
| Population decline is not killing people. Japan and S
| Korea aren't killing anyone.
| cactus2093 wrote:
| > We do not need that many people. The planet does not
| need it. We need to learn to live with less and without
| never ending growth.
|
| This is where I really think it gets into the grounds of
| a moral or philosophical argument. Life without this
| neverending economic growth is nasty, brutish, and short.
| We would never have advanced modern medicine, increased
| lifespans, or invented any of the conveniences we all use
| every day without it. There are no systems other than
| broad economic/productivity growth that have ever worked
| on a large scale for improving the living conditions for
| humanity. And we still have a long way to go to make life
| better for the poorest communities around the world.
| Denying this type of progress to future generations of
| humans, for a purely aesthetic reason such as we're
| comfortable enough today in our upper middle class
| lifestyles and we just kind of feel like we don't need
| more people around, is unconscionable.
|
| There is plenty of water on the earth, and capacity for
| clean energy production, it's just a question of how do
| we harness it effectively while mitigating the downsides.
| I'm all for making some short term sacrifices and paying
| some costs now to avoid the worst of climate change, but
| that does not mean accepting that the future for humanity
| should be degrowth.
| shock-value wrote:
| The issue with Japan is not specifically the decline nor
| absolute level of overall population. It's rather the
| demographic makeup which is shifting older. The next few
| decades will be increasingly difficult for them as their
| economy will need to support a larger level of retirees.
| https://www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2019/
|
| China has a similar issue coming down the line.
| https://www.populationpyramid.net/china/2019/
|
| For reference, the U.S. population pyramid looks a bit
| "healthier" (more balanced), though the retirement of the
| boomer generation will still pose a challenge.
| https://www.populationpyramid.net/united-states-of-
| america/2...
| mc32 wrote:
| That's the usual specter; however, before modern times,
| populations grew and shrank for many reasons. Once people
| were out of the weeds from childhood disease, people
| lived reasonably long lives.
|
| One big difference now is people expect to "retire".
| That's a modern construct. Sure, people used to add less
| and less to society as they aged and ultimately would
| need some subsidy, but much less than today.
| bserge wrote:
| They expect it because it's been the norm for a couple of
| generations. And we're paying a lot for it (in Europe, at
| least).
|
| But yeah, it looks like we'll go back to no retirement
| soon enough, the current systems are not sustainable.
| Lots of people will be pissed off.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| We'll be better off as a species if we find a natural
| stable state, but that doesn't mean that getting there will
| be a good experience for everyone.
|
| Shrinking populations in particular puts a lot of strain on
| workers to support a larger elderly population. The more
| rapid the decline, the worse the strain is.
| tbihl wrote:
| We would be much better off as a species if we were able
| to handle the transition to a stable state. On the other
| hand, population growth is what allows us the enormous
| specialization that lets us achieve unbelievable
| technological feats while also wasting time during work
| on HN.
| mc32 wrote:
| There are enormous amounts of people who don't add to
| innovation. Very few people are needed for innovation.
| Most people even on HN are doing routine things. Not
| discovery or in support of discovery. Most people's minds
| are not being taxed -and that's okay. That's to say,
| having millions of idle minds to produce one very
| productive mind isn't a requirement. I think this
| initiative could be part of this solution where we need
| fewer raw numbers but more productive percentages.
| tbihl wrote:
| >Declining pops diminish the need for expansionism and
| internal unrest. Less fighting over limited resources.
|
| This is probably true, but the problem is that its logical
| conclusion is the literal death of everyone. Stop anywhere
| short of that, and people will return to the point where
| they're no longer too preoccupied with avoiding imminent
| death to compete for resources. At that point, the less
| fighting is unlikely to be less per capita, and the only
| good thing to say will be that technology will have
| regressed so far that we won't be able to fight and kill
| very efficiently.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| My understanding is that the issue with declining
| population is that typically that also means an aging
| population. Younger people are not having children which
| causes a whole slew of issues.
| tbihl wrote:
| What you've described is the best-cast scenario of an
| aging population.
|
| Far worse is the modern reality in most places, which is
| systems that take growth and a certain demographic shape
| as base assumptions, and then make promises to people
| decades in advance based on those promises. That's what
| we do in the United States (and probably most places, but
| I won't speculate.)
| brandelune wrote:
| And Japan is betting on pervasive hydrogen based electricity
| generation to manage carbon neutrality by 2050... A lot of
| wishful thinking + hot air and "I won't be there to see the
| disaster" from current politicians...
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(page generated 2021-07-26 23:02 UTC)