[HN Gopher] Introduction to open source private LTE and 5G networks
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Introduction to open source private LTE and 5G networks
        
       Author : peter_d_sherman
       Score  : 319 points
       Date   : 2021-07-25 05:28 UTC (17 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (ubuntu.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (ubuntu.com)
        
       | nixpulvis wrote:
       | I'm a little confused about how UE authentication works with open
       | source cellular. Are there re-programmable SIMs that you need to
       | buy? Or it only works with virtual SIM cards written in software
       | on non-commercial equipment.
       | 
       | To ask simply; could I expect to easily connect my iPhone to one
       | of these networks?
        
         | bserge wrote:
         | Yes, programmable SIM cards.
         | 
         | https://www.smartjac.biz/mobile-telecom/sim-cards/4g-lte-sim...
         | 
         | Buy pre-programmed or invest in a programmer + a bunch of
         | blanks.
        
           | toomuchtodo wrote:
           | Does this work with eSIMs?
        
             | g_p wrote:
             | Unfortunately not - eSim is a fairly closed-shop ecosystem.
             | You can't easily type in the provisioning parameters into a
             | QR code generator and get an eSim to use.
             | 
             | You need to work with a GSMA-approved eSim issuer who has a
             | special CA-signed certificate to authorise a handshake via
             | some cellular standard protocols to do the eSim setup
             | process. This process does prevent keying material being
             | exchanged in plaintext, but also "locks in" the need for an
             | intermediary in the process unfortunately.
             | 
             | So while you could make eSims, you'd need to work with a
             | GSMA-approved issuer.
        
               | grishka wrote:
               | That's unfortunate. Is it possible bypass this
               | restriction on a rooted Android phone, or is it
               | implemented in hardware?
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | As far as I know, eSIMs are usually implemented in
               | physical hardware, close to (or maybe even on) the
               | baseband, but independent from the baseband firmware.
               | 
               | This is because they are considered a trusted execution
               | environment; if they weren't, it would be possible to
               | "clone" eSIM instances.
        
               | grishka wrote:
               | Ah, right. "Trusted" in the modern dystopian sense that I
               | physically own the thing but it's controlled by someone
               | else.
        
               | g_p wrote:
               | Exactly. The whole baseband in your phone is considered
               | "trusted" by the network because you can't easily control
               | it. Don't give the carriers ideas - if they thought they
               | could move to a "ma Bell" style of you leasing the phone
               | from them without ever gaining ownership rights of it,
               | someone would try to! Look at carrier locking, and the
               | world of CDMA, where your phone has to have its ESN
               | (serial number) manually whitelisted to join the
               | network... It's a whole different world from general
               | purpose computing!
               | 
               | The mobile standards are built around the assumption that
               | the baseband does as it's told by the network - your
               | phone's transmit slots get scheduled by the base station,
               | and your phone sits quietly until those slots to speak.
               | This extends to the wider architecture and design of the
               | ecosystem - the user is not "meant" to be in charge of
               | their device in the mobile ecosystem. With the split
               | between AP and CP (application processor and cellular
               | processor), if you put the CP on a suitable bus like USB
               | which doesn't give DMA access, you can build a phone you
               | have sufficient control of (see Pinephone etc).
               | 
               | In the world of SIM, this is back to carrier thinking -
               | they control the SIM as it's "theirs". The keys on the
               | SIM are known only to them, not even to you. You're not
               | trusted to know your own SIM authentication parameters.
               | This can be helpful in some ways, as it makes the threat
               | model different to other systems and you can't
               | unwittingly disclose your keys to someone through social
               | engineering... But it's less helpful as customers
               | generally don't think like security architects who
               | designed this, and end up just having their physical SIM
               | stolen, or their carrier ports their number after social
               | engineering...
        
               | grishka wrote:
               | Where I'm from, phones were always decoupled from
               | carriers. The carrier sells you a SIM card, that's it.
               | It's on you to buy or already have a compatible phone to
               | stick it into. I don't think any of the big carriers ever
               | offered financing as part of the contract the way US ones
               | do. Also we only have prepaid plans.
               | 
               | It's a shame still that you can't have a 100% open-source
               | phone. I'm the kind of person who believes that all of
               | the humanity's knowledge must be freely accessible to
               | everyone. Including schematics and documentation for
               | every device ever made, including ICs. It's
               | counterproductive when multiple companies have to
               | reinvent the same thing... and then keep it secret like
               | the others.
        
               | bserge wrote:
               | Afaik, it has little to do with the user-facing software,
               | you need access to the baseband modem part.
        
               | varispeed wrote:
               | Do you know why is this a closed shop? Is there a legal
               | reason or whichever corporation controls it ensured that
               | they have a monopoly? Is there a way to open this up?
        
               | g_p wrote:
               | From memory, I believe GSMA (the industry association
               | that helps to keep mobile technology dominated by
               | carriers that hold exclusively licensed spectrum, if
               | you're cynical) require everyone who provides eSim to
               | have been security audited. They can then get access to a
               | trusted certificate that will be able to sign the
               | handshake to the embedded security module (eSim).
               | 
               | It's complex, but remember that in the traditional world
               | view of mobile, the carrier "owns" the SIM, and the
               | handset, and the network itself. When the carrier can't
               | control the SIM in its entirety, you need to have someone
               | brokering the relationship here between everyone -
               | otherwise a carrier coming onto a device may lack
               | confidence the device isn't compromised by the previous
               | network that served it.
               | 
               | Some information that might help you start look around
               | the topic - https://pages.arm.com/rs/312-SAX-488/images/G
               | SMA_eSIM_Certif...
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | eSIM implementations need to be closed because they are
               | considered a secure execution environment for loading
               | eSIM profiles (in that it should not be possible to
               | extract the keys contained in a profile).
               | 
               | I'm not actually sure if there is a good reason for the
               | eSIM profile server (called SM-DP+ in the language of the
               | specs) to be part of the same trusted computing base;
               | maybe defense in depth against a malicious profile/SAT
               | applet trying to access the data of others on the same
               | eSIM?
        
             | bserge wrote:
             | You don't need hardware for that. Just need to be able to
             | program your own carrier profile... which I guess is very
             | hard to impossible for the average person.
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | What do you mean by "carrier profile"? An eSIM profile?
        
             | mnd999 wrote:
             | This would be super useful if it could me made to work on
             | the secondary eSIM for iDevices.
        
               | [deleted]
        
       | mychele wrote:
       | This is a list of open source tools to do this
       | https://open5g.info/
       | 
       | Something important that may be overlooked in the blog post is
       | that for most bands you need licenses to transmit over the air.
       | ISM bands are unlicensed but may come with other limitations
       | (e.g., in some countries regulators require a listen-before-talk
       | mechanism that is not always implemented in cellular stacks).
        
         | punnerud wrote:
         | All the examples in the blogpost is areas where you own the
         | property, and in most countries can deploy this if you are
         | careful not to interfere with areas outside of your property.
         | With 5G this is easier because you can use ISM bands within the
         | "core" and WiFi closer to the edge.
        
       | eplanit wrote:
       | This could get interesting at defcon conferences (if they're
       | still a thing), which is already famous for having the world's
       | most hostile wifi networks. Now DIY, private stingray?
        
       | vsskanth wrote:
       | How does one go about getting access in the US to use a frequency
       | that can cover a large area per access point?
       | 
       | I've worked in remote mines before which heavily use telemetry
       | and they all seem to be on 2.4 ghz mesh networks. IIRC they need
       | an access point every half a mile or less and are expensive to
       | maintain.
       | 
       | If you could install just one tower in a mine in the office and
       | have the entire area covered, it would be a game changer.
        
       | devops000 wrote:
       | Do you need a different SIM to connect to a private network or
       | you can use a commercial one (Verizon etc..)?
        
         | pgorczak wrote:
         | LTE and 5G use something like pre-shared keys for both user and
         | operator so no to the second option in most cases except
         | emergency use (you can make emergency calls via any network).
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | landemva wrote:
       | "Mobile networks are much more secure than WiFi."
       | 
       | Would like to see this claim substantiated. TLS protocol runs the
       | same on either pipe.
        
       | rawrmaan wrote:
       | Also check out the open source work of Helium and FreedomFi, who
       | are working to help individuals easily deploy 5G/LTE offload for
       | major carriers and get paid for data usage.
       | 
       | https://freedomfi.com/helium5g/
        
         | glitchc wrote:
         | Please don't do this. Not only is this a violation of the
         | agreement between you and the ISP, but consumer internet pipes
         | were never designed for this type of service. This is only
         | feasible if the internet coming to your house is a business
         | line, which it won't be if you live in a residential area.
        
           | przemub wrote:
           | I'm surprised by how downvoted you are. It is kind of obvious
           | that it is a violation to me here, since we have a history of
           | people reselling their bandwith in blocks of flats.
        
           | KingMachiavelli wrote:
           | If I pay for unlimited data at XMbps, I expect to be able to
           | use as much data as I want. If I cannot then ISPs should
           | advertise more honestly.
           | 
           | Plus, I'd be very surprised in Comcast Business was actually
           | using separate infrastructure.
        
             | mnd999 wrote:
             | ISPs should advertise more honestly, but if they started
             | talking about contention ratios in their advertising the
             | average consumer would rapidly lose interest.
             | 
             | With business, it's not separate infrastructure necessarily
             | but the number of customers sharing the same infrastructure
             | is significantly lower. This leads to more consistent
             | speeds and less congestion.
             | 
             | Edit: fuck you downvoters - this is comment is both
             | accurate and helpful.
        
               | goodpoint wrote:
               | > the average consumer would rapidly lose interest.
               | 
               | On the contrary, in a lot of places most consumers
               | complain about misleading claims about speed and capping.
               | 
               | The average consumer understands that daily rates for a
               | hotel room change based on season, day of the week,
               | special events and room size.
               | 
               | Paying variable data rates based on usage and guaranteed
               | bandwidth is not more difficult.
        
               | varispeed wrote:
               | > ISPs should advertise more honestly, but if they
               | started talking about contention ratios in their
               | advertising the average consumer would rapidly lose
               | interest.
               | 
               | In short, they have to lie to get business? Why is that
               | even legal?
        
               | jacoblambda wrote:
               | It's not though. Sure what you say may be correct in some
               | amount but it has little to do with the comment you
               | responded to and isn't much more than excuse for why ISPs
               | take advantage of their (largely) monopoly powers in the
               | residential internet space.
               | 
               | The reason you don't get a consistent speed and a
               | guarantee as a residential ISP client isn't because of
               | any of the reasons you mentioned. It's because ISPs can
               | force you to pay for their service at whatever price they
               | charge and no matter how bad it is.
               | 
               | The internet could be out for 8 hours a day, you could
               | get sub-dialup speeds consistently, you simply can't
               | connect to some services for some inexplicable reason, or
               | your packet loss could be so bad that you get kicked from
               | services and pages constantly. Guess what, you are still
               | going to pay for it because what's the alternative? No
               | internet at all or satellite internet that goes out
               | whenever a cloud is in the sky and that alots you 1GB a
               | month at 56kbps for 200USD/month.
               | 
               | No matter what a residential ISP does, they will still
               | get their money and even if you service is complete trash
               | you'll grin and bare it lest you end up without access at
               | all. That's the reason we don't get consistent service
               | with residential plans and it won't change until
               | something happens to break us out of the monopolistic
               | regulatory captured environment we are in.
        
               | mnd999 wrote:
               | Yes, the US residential market would definitely benefit
               | from more competition.
               | 
               | The model we have here is to separate the infrastructure
               | from the service such that infrastructure providers lay
               | fibre to homes and businesses and then sell wholesale to
               | ISPs who sell service over the common fibre to consumers.
               | It's definitely better than the US model as there is
               | competition between ISPs and they therefore have reason
               | to apply pressure to get problems fixed. Infrastructure
               | upgrades are still painfully slow as there is little
               | competitive reason to upgrade the fibre (or fibre /
               | copper VDSL in many places) as all the ISPs have little
               | choice but use the infra provider for a certain area.
               | 
               | Ideally you want more infra, but the cost of building out
               | fibre networks is high, particularly if you're only
               | selling to 1-in-2 or 1-in-3 properties due to
               | competition. That's before you get to the politics and
               | legals and lobbying you need to do to succeed in the US.
               | I'm hopeful 5G will compete with broadband and give the
               | providers the kick up the ass they need.
        
             | echelon wrote:
             | Your license probably doesn't have a provision for
             | subletting.
        
         | rhexs wrote:
         | Wow, letting anyone use my network as a back haul in exchange
         | for a cryptocurrency I've never heard of.
         | 
         | Sign me up.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
       | On a related note, the Pine64 folks are working on the PineDio,
       | which will use LoRa https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Pinedio
        
         | goodpoint wrote:
         | LoRa is incredibly slow at scale due to the _shared_ spectrum
         | and extremely asymmetrical. Also entirely proprietary and
         | patented.
        
         | e2le wrote:
         | There will also soon be a LoRa addon board (backpanel) for the
         | PinePhone that'll be powered by an ATtiny84! A working port of
         | meshtastic for this device would be very interesting.
         | 
         | https://wiki.pine64.org/images/b/bc/Pinephone_LoRa_BackPanel...
        
       | peter_d_sherman wrote:
       | Related:
       | 
       | OpenLTE (Wikipedia)
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenLTE
       | 
       | OpenLTE (Technical Page, SourceForge)
       | 
       | http://openlte.sourceforge.net/
       | 
       | SourceForge OpenLTE Wiki, installing:
       | 
       | https://sourceforge.net/p/openlte/wiki/Installing%20OpenLTE/
       | 
       | "FPGA Implementation of LTE Downlink Transceiver with
       | Synchronization and Equalization":
       | 
       | https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.69...
       | 
       | EETimes, "Implementing LTE on FPGAs":
       | 
       | https://www.eetimes.com/implementing-lte-on-fpgas/#
       | 
       | Also interesting is doing a Google query with "FPGA" and "LTE"
       | and/or "OpenLTE" as the search parameters:
       | 
       | https://www.google.com/search?q=FPGA+and+%28LTE+or+OpenLTE%2...
       | 
       | (Also note that GNU Radio: (https://www.gnuradio.org/about/) and
       | SDR:(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software-defined_radio) -- are
       | related topics that may contain some overlapping areas of
       | interest...)
        
         | boramalper wrote:
         | And also OpenRAN: "The OpenRAN Project Group is an initiative
         | to define and build 2G, 3G, 4G, and 5G RAN solutions based on
         | general-purpose vendor-neutral hardware, open interfaces and
         | software."
         | 
         | https://telecominfraproject.com/openran/
        
           | peter_d_sherman wrote:
           | Excellent link!
           | 
           | Also, for those that are new to the "RAN" terminology (as I
           | was just a few minutes ago! <g>):
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_access_network
        
       | pomatic wrote:
       | I'd love to setup a small scale network for personal use, but the
       | elephant in the room is licensing.... Is it actually possible to
       | formally license a DIY LTE network? (Or AMPS, 2G, 3G). In the UK,
       | for example it is possible to get experimental licenses in
       | principle, but I doubt it would be possible for an individual to
       | legally operate a permanent or long term network on/near
       | commercially allocated frequencies?
        
         | ffk wrote:
         | Check out CBRS which is "licensed-by-rule." You should be able
         | to use CBRS to deploy private 5G.
        
         | alexfromapex wrote:
         | I think there needs to be a push to make it possible. It's kind
         | of tiring having big corporations being the only ones who can
         | do things.
        
           | karteum wrote:
           | There are already a lot of things that are feasible without
           | any license. In Europe/CEPT, you might have a look at all
           | bands under the provisions of ERC Recommendation 70-03
           | (https://docdb.cept.org/download/2464).
           | 
           | However, those provisions are made in order to ensure a
           | good/fair access to anyone, and therefore to prevent a single
           | user or single technology from overusing those bands which
           | are meant to be shared. For that purpose, there are
           | associated restrictions (in terms of power/EIRP, duty-cycle)
           | and/or mandatory sharing approaches (Listen-before-talk,
           | detect-and-avoid, etc.). In the case of Wi-Fi, CSMA/CA is a
           | form of listen-before-talk.
           | 
           | Unfortunately, mobile technologies defined at 3GPP (GSM,
           | HSPA, LTE, NR) are not designed to be used in such a way
           | (i.e. they don't have any sharing mechanism such as LBT and
           | they require _by design_ dedicated/licensed bands), which by
           | the way implies some kind of specific coordination at the
           | country borders where two operators are using the same
           | channels... (you might look at ECC recommendation 15-01 for
           | an example of PCI sharing).
           | 
           | LAA is a way to have an LTE carrier within the (shared) 5 GHz
           | band, but it has to rely on an anchor carrier for signaling,
           | which requires licensed spectrum. Multefire is a fully-
           | unlicensed solution, but I doubt many UEs (smartphones)
           | support it, and anyway because it must implement the same
           | power limitations and LBT as wi-fi in order to comply with
           | regulations I doubt it would be much better than wi-fi...
           | (maybe it would in some specific case where deterministic QoS
           | is important)
           | 
           | One more thing : keep in mind that a typical 3G/4G/5G
           | macrocell site (e.g. around 65 dBm EIRP per carrier) is
           | something very expensive : your mileage may vary but it can
           | easily be around 100000 EUR / site when some construction is
           | required.
        
             | joecool1029 wrote:
             | >LAA is a way to have an LTE carrier within the (shared) 5
             | GHz band, but it has to rely on an anchor carrier for
             | signaling, which requires licensed spectrum.
             | 
             | I want to add, as I said in my last comment that 5G NR
             | allows for 5Ghz to be used as primary carrier, it was
             | controversially included in the standard. A study from
             | earlier this month showed LAA apparently doesn't play too
             | well with wifi nearby:
             | https://www.cs.uchicago.edu/news/article/laa-wifi/
        
               | g_p wrote:
               | In general, cellular technologies have been designed
               | against assumptions of a clean (or at least exclusively
               | used) RF channel. 4G and 5G are deployed with frequency
               | reuse between base stations, which implement the same
               | standard and can coordinate their emissions and
               | scheduling of clients (both in time and frequency) to
               | minimise interference.
               | 
               | WiFi is a whole different kettle of fish - it's designed
               | to be used by multiple independent access point operators
               | simultaneously, with the ability to change frequency if
               | needed based on the interference observed. It's designed
               | to try to deliver good performance by listening before
               | transmitting etc, to avoid transmitting over another
               | device, to avoid a tragedy of the commons scenario where
               | selfish devices end up rendering WiFi unusable for
               | everyone (including themselves), through refusing to
               | yield time to devices transmitting on other networks.
               | 
               | NR-U and LAA etc don't generally play according to the
               | same rules, as they're standards arising from the world
               | of exclusive spectrum access, and coordination of base
               | stations by one operator - in the world of cellular, the
               | base stations allocate uplink channels for their clients.
               | That doesn't work in WiFi with multiple networks in the
               | same approximate location, hence they need to try to
               | prevent interference and cross-talk.
        
         | TaylorAlexander wrote:
         | If anyone knows the answers to this for USA I'd be very curious
         | (at this time I don't see one). People are mentioning possibly
         | using a 5ghz band?
         | 
         | Very weird that the ubuntu article talks about how easy it is
         | to do this and makes no mention of spectrum license concerns.
        
         | joecool1029 wrote:
         | 5G NR allows for 5Ghz to be used as primary carrier in band 46.
         | (as opposed to LTE that only allows it as a secondary carrier.)
         | This wouldn't require a license to use.
         | 
         | I believe CBRS band 48 (3.5Ghz) is lightly licensed but I don't
         | remember if you can set it up as a primary carrier on LTE.
        
           | ksec wrote:
           | Do you know how does the patent licensing works on 5G NR-U? I
           | have been trying to find an answer but literally everyone in
           | the industry are mum about it.
           | 
           | I really really want to see real world usage of NR-U and as a
           | possible replacement of WiFi.
        
             | g_p wrote:
             | I understand that NR-U is a full implementation of a 5G
             | base station (and client handset/CPE if you can find one
             | that actually implements NR-U!), and therefore you will
             | require patent licenses for the full implemented stack.
             | 
             | In an ideal world, your radio manufacturer and software
             | vendors would have appropriate patent licenses in place.
             | 
             | For this and other reasons (handset support being
             | commercially problematic since carriers want to preserve
             | their dominance), I don't see NR-U really replacing Wi-Fi.
             | The friction to joining a device to a network is also far
             | higher, and there's much more complexity in running the
             | network and architecting a suitable core network and user
             | plane functions and keeping it all running. WiFi really is
             | a lot simpler in many ways.
        
           | karteum wrote:
           | CBRS is very US-specific...
           | 
           | It is indeed an innovative way to give access to spectrum,
           | but it's a pity it has been done in this band (which had a
           | huge potential for usual operators in terms of site reuse).
           | 
           | I suspect in Europe a light licensing approach such as CBRS
           | might be considered in higher bands such as 26 GHz...
        
         | g_p wrote:
         | In the UK there are 2 ways to get access to long-term spectrum.
         | It's also usable from a bands and handets perspective!
         | 
         | 1. Shared access licence. There's 3.3 MHz (duplex paired) of
         | former DECT guardband available for local use at the top of the
         | 1800 MHz band. This should work fine to run 2G or 4G. There's
         | 10 MHz of TDD at 2390 to 2400 MHz, indoor use only I believe,
         | and most useful for 4G. There's also 3.8 to 4.2 GHz which
         | allows outdoor use, and is dedicated shared spectrum for 5G.
         | Transmit power limited aren't enough to run a big commercial
         | network, but are enough to deploy a private network on a campus
         | or private site.
         | 
         | The former two should be widely supported on handsets. The
         | latter (5G option) is aligned with band N77.
         | 
         | 2. If you're in a rural area, get a local access licence to
         | "take" existing operator spectrum and use it legally, with 3
         | years max tenure. It can be renewed if the operator has no
         | intention to use it. Operators don't like this, as they see
         | spectrum as their owned property, but this isn't the case, and
         | they only have a right to use it...
         | 
         | The process of getting a local access licence is deliberately
         | complicated by operators as they don't want you doing it, but
         | it can be done. You need to understand the technology and
         | commercials of the industry though to realistically be
         | successful. Some operators want you to talk to them first,
         | others want you to talk to Ofcom first. If you know what you're
         | doing, and make a strategically selected request for spectrum,
         | it can be done. You can operate a commercial service in this
         | spectrum, but you have to be clear to users the time-limited
         | nature of spectrum access.
         | 
         | Going forward though, it's clear from Ofcom's own priorities
         | that a more dynamic nature of spectrum allocation and
         | utilisation authorisation is a priority and likely to be coming
         | down the line - it's been a work item the last couple of years.
         | Once that comes, we could see easier ways to access spectrum.
         | Realistically though, operators will do what they can to make
         | spectrum access complex, to preserve a final moat in a market
         | of 10+ years of continued reduction in average revenue per
         | user.
        
         | numpad0 wrote:
         | At least on paper the Japanese sXGP standard is close to what
         | you want, it's reportedly just TD-LTE Band 39 and equipments
         | are licensed the same way as Wi-Fi APs and dongles are.
         | 
         | Maybe if there's enough demand for workplace private phone
         | network, such laws could be passed to run 5G or 4G as Wi-Fi
         | alternatives.
        
         | vxNsr wrote:
         | Yes this was my question... The FCC is pretty aggressive about
         | keeping people off frequencies they don't have a license for,
         | how does that work in these types of environments? Especially
         | something like a college campus, where you have 10,000+
         | students who would all need their phones to be reprovisioned...
         | not to mention how would it work if you walk off campus? LTE/5G
         | isn't really great at working with multiple networks... it just
         | wasn't set up that way...
        
           | varispeed wrote:
           | Does it mean that the protocol has big corporation monopoly
           | built in by design? I am not familiar with the details, but
           | by the sound of it why is this even legal?
        
         | Sephr wrote:
         | You could simply host your network on unlicensed spectrum.
        
           | dsr_ wrote:
           | AFAICT -- and I would be happy to see counter-evidence -- all
           | the unlicensed spectrum suitable for LTE or 5G is in the 5-6
           | GHz frequencies. The physical characteristics of transmission
           | don't change, so one might as well just deploy the cheaply
           | available 5GHz wifi systems -- you don't get an advantage by
           | using LTE or 5G protocols.
           | 
           | i suppose if you only had relatively low data rate
           | applications you could use 900MHz, but there's a dearth of
           | CPE. 900MHz unlicensed has slightly more bandwidth than a
           | single 2.4GHz wifi channel.
        
             | dilyevsky wrote:
             | You can probably drop it down some more and use tvws
             | spectrum. Probably will be alone there
        
               | g_p wrote:
               | TVWS channel allocations often don't align neatly with
               | duplex paired 3GPP bands, meaning you might need multiple
               | adjacent TVWS channels.
               | 
               | In addition, in many countries the TVWS regulations only
               | cover specifically authorised devices which adhere to
               | TVWS standards (which 3GPP doesn't), and create a whole
               | host of challenges for the client devices (handsets),
               | which don't understand TVWS rules, and need their
               | transmit power to be controlled by the base station,
               | which isn't necessarily aware of the client location, or
               | authorised within TVWS rules to query the TVWS database
               | on behalf of the client.
        
           | pgorczak wrote:
           | Rules are different in each country of course but most
           | unlicensed frequencies can only be used with mechanisms that
           | leave space for other users (networks) like listen before
           | talk or restricted duty cycles. Cellular technology isn't
           | built with shared access to spectrum in mind although there
           | is/was some effort to add it (LTE-U, 5G-NR-U).
        
         | cozzyd wrote:
         | I recently deployed an LTE network at a research station in
         | Greenland. Licensing ended up much easier than I expected (the
         | Greenlandic government almost immediately granted the license
         | for LTE band 8), but this is in a place in the middle of the
         | ice sheet hundreds of miles from the nearest village.
        
           | gregsadetsky wrote:
           | I'd love to hear more about this, if you can share.
           | 
           | How complex / large is it of an installation? How comparable
           | (or not at all) to setting up a large scale wifi network? How
           | complex is the maintenance? Team size for installing /
           | operating vs number of people served?
           | 
           | Everyone's phone has a custom sim card?
           | 
           | Thanks :) Truly curious about this.
        
             | g_p wrote:
             | Not OP you replied to, but have done similar before.
             | Answering your questions in order (at least the ones not
             | specific to that scenario) to share some thoughts, which
             | are certainly not answers by any stretch:
             | 
             | - setting up a mobile network is quite different to a WiFi
             | network in some ways, but perhaps a little more in line
             | with a complex large-scale WiFi network. Mobile networks
             | are architected around a "core network" which manages
             | mobility and user traffic, and a "radio access network"
             | which connects the base stations to your core network. The
             | "core" is a fair bit more involved than a large-scale WiFi
             | network setup, at least in my experience. You will need
             | domain knowledge of 3GPP networks, and that's sometimes
             | hard to get hold of, at least outside of traditional mobile
             | operators and vendors. That can be a barrier.
             | 
             | - In terms of maintenance, a well-built RAN should "run
             | itself" for the most-part. You'll want some monitoring on
             | equipment. If you are using modern software-based base
             | stations, they will run on Linux. Treat this like any large
             | at-scale fleet deployment of Linux servers. Keep them
             | patched and plan your maintenance windows for reboots etc.
             | Your core network itself will realistically be a bunch of
             | Linux servers to provide network functions. You'll have the
             | usual periodic maintenance issues keeping up a bunch of
             | complex services that you don't always fully understand,
             | and the temptation to never update anything, as "it's
             | working right now".
             | 
             | - The number of people you need for installing depends on
             | skill sets. You'll need some experienced riggers to install
             | macro sites on masts by climbing the masts. But you also
             | need people who can pour concrete to get masts into the
             | ground. And people who can install masts. You'll need
             | someone who knows some DC electricals and can get
             | everything powered up. You'll need some radio knowledge to
             | plan out the network and check the antennas are pointed in
             | the right directions and with the correct tilts. If you
             | outsource this to a subcontractor, they can probably get
             | the same people who do commercial networks to do it, but
             | that will cost you dearly, and you'll never quite know what
             | happened or how to fix it if something goes wrong!
             | 
             | - To operate the network I guess it's not a huge amount
             | different to any other complex IT system. If you build out
             | your core network well, you can serve a few thousand users
             | without too much trouble, with minimal people. Once you
             | start to scale beyond a few thousand users, you have to
             | scale up the core and architect it a bit better. There's
             | some routine monitoring and maintenance, and the usual
             | things you need to do in any production environment, but in
             | general it's not too horrendous. If you go down the "big
             | vendor box" route like carriers do, they'll take big
             | complex managed services to keep everything in check, but
             | have far fewer really good network people on-staff. The
             | biggest issue you'll have in terms of staffing up to manage
             | it is getting the breadth of knowledge and skills needed to
             | have access to the right range of skills as needed - legacy
             | telecoms can get complex fast. If you are having an issue
             | with IMS for 4G calling (VoLTE), you might only need 1
             | person, but that's in addition to the 1 3GPP core expert
             | you have, the 1 IP networking expert you have, etc.
             | 
             | - You need to put a custom SIM into every device, and set
             | up a PLMN identity for the network, which is just a 5 or 6
             | digit number that identifies the network to handsets. The
             | SIM tells the phone what network it should try to join, and
             | contains the crypto keys used to do authentication with the
             | network. You can often get a PLMN allocated by your
             | national telecoms regulator, or use one in the 999/xx
             | range, which are set aside for private, uncoordinated use.
        
       | aQutePsyOps wrote:
       | https://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-LTE-GSM-Network-IN-A-BOX-NIB-O...
        
       | boba7 wrote:
       | Shit is illegal in Europe. /thread
        
         | detaro wrote:
         | FTFY: Shit needs a license (or a proper lab environment) in
         | Europe, like approximately everywhere in the world.
        
           | varispeed wrote:
           | > Shit needs a license, money, connections, bribes
           | 
           | FTFY
           | 
           | You can't just get a license if you don't know right people
           | and you don't have suitcases of money ready to pass under the
           | table.
        
             | detaro wrote:
             | Depends. Temporary, e.g. for an event, can often be done
             | (although usually by operating under someone elses license,
             | not getting one from scratch), with 5G there's likely some
             | interest in femtocell setups where afaik some states are
             | looking into special local licensing. But generally yes,
             | difficult club to get into.
        
             | beervirus wrote:
             | We were talking about Europe, not China.
        
             | sipos wrote:
             | It isn't an under the table thing, at least in the UK. For
             | the generalloy used frequency bands for this, there was an
             | auction for the spectrum. You can get access to parts not
             | being used by the people who bid on it.
             | 
             | You can also get an amateur radio license, and use
             | frequency not normally used for this, but that probably
             | means using SDR as most devices designed to use LTE will
             | only work on normal LTE bands etc.
             | 
             | No bribes, connections, or anything shady etc needed.
        
       | srinathkrishna wrote:
       | I used to work on UMTS networks about a decade back and fresh out
       | of college it was quite daunting. At that time I wanted to study
       | an opensource implementation to gain more understanding but I
       | couldn't find any. Glad to see this in the present time
        
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