[HN Gopher] Beneath Istanbul, Archaeologists Explore an Ancient ...
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Beneath Istanbul, Archaeologists Explore an Ancient City's
Byzantine Basements
Author : pseudolus
Score : 142 points
Date : 2021-07-24 11:14 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| Jun8 wrote:
| HN continues to amaze me, seeing this fascinating but obscure
| topic on the main page was a Sunday morning surprise.
|
| There are many sources on these tunnels and passages,
| unfortunately not many of them in English. Here's a video of one
| of the more accessible tunnels, under the hippodrome:
| https://youtu.be/TeP9BYjtiiI If you are curious, these were also
| featured in Expedition Unknown, streaming on Amazon Prime.
|
| Many claim that there are tunnels from the city to Prince'
| Islands, going under the sea, but these have not been found yet.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Regarding the sources: It's amazing how much of the Latin
| corpus still hasn't been translated to English. (I'm working on
| a much later set of NeoLatin translations) I've found there are
| great tools like OCR4all and alpheios.net -- but there is a
| huge amount of specialized labor involved and virtually no
| funding.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| And, worth mentioning that the situation is far worse for
| Sanskrit and other Indian languages, where thousands of
| unknown texts are literally moulding away in temple
| basements. I personally think it is tragic to lose cultural
| legacy like that.
| failwhaleshark wrote:
| Cue _They Might be Giants_ :
|
| https://youtu.be/vsQrKZcYtqg
| clipradiowallet wrote:
| If underground things(ancient, modern, all of them) appeal to you
| - there is a book "Underground" by Will Hunt you may enjoy. He
| doesn't explore Istanbul, takes you on a tour of several other
| ancient ruins underneath modern day cities. If you're into that
| kinda thing, I recommend it.
| npapag7 wrote:
| Nothing is byzantine. It is either roman or greek. People living
| in these areas never called themselves byzantines.
| Broken_Hippo wrote:
| Just because folks didn't call themselves byzantines doesn't
| mean that the Byzantine era did not exist.
| Leparamour wrote:
| My personal impression with archaeological sites around Istanbul
| is that architecture seems only cared for if it's from Osmanic
| heritage or connected to Islam. Anything that predates Islamic
| ruling is rather let to fall into disrepair.
|
| But again this just my personal impression from visiting the area
| and maybe there are budgetary reasons instead of religious
| chauvinism.
| zwaps wrote:
| It's not unrealistic that there are political preferences in
| Turkey. However, I think that is hard to say. I certainly would
| not state it in the absolute. Sites that are not connected to
| the Ottomans, easily excavated and then visible to tourists are
| naturally rare in Istanbul.
|
| But many of the sites are not Ottoman in origin, and are quite
| central to the cities archeological portfolio. On the other
| hand, artifacts (like the ships they discovered during tunnel
| excavations) are also on display. They are just several layers
| under the Ottoman Istanbul so when you find them, it's not
| going to be a whole site you can visit.
|
| Another hint might be that if you go outside of Istanbul, there
| are a lot of Greek era sites (or even earlier sites) that are
| "the" highlight of the adjacent region or city. Assos, Ephesus,
| Troy, many things in Bodrum, Cappadocia and many more. Here,
| the problem is clearly money. Take Assos. They do what they
| can, and it's fully excavated. There just don't seem to be the
| resources to feature it in a more exciting fashion.
|
| Finally, knowing people who are Turkish archeologists, I would
| say they care about the entire history of the place just as any
| other archeologist would.
|
| In any case, I also hope there will be (and it seems at times
| that there is) more resources to excavate, understand and
| display all the historical sites found in Turkey.
|
| To be clear, I am not Turkish, but I go there often.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| > I also hope there will be... more resources to excavate,
| understand and and display all the historical sites found in
| Turkey
|
| I completely agree. I wish there was an international
| scientific funding body like the NSF. It could, for instance,
| provide grants to fund regional archaeology. Life is not easy
| for scientists in countries that don't fund it. It could be
| such a good thing for the world.
| Leparamour wrote:
| Thanks for the background information. Highly appreciated.
| csomar wrote:
| Another point is that most Islamic heritage are mosques. It's
| very hard to find a mosque not cared for (even in quite poor
| countries). So Muslims will turn a blind eye on most things
| (their house, hospital, etc...) but not their mosque.
|
| If they didn't want this heritage, they'd have already got rid
| of it through destruction (see Syria/Iraq); but my guess is
| that there isn't enough money to take care of it.
| istanbul7 wrote:
| Your view is totally wrong. There are largest hospitals,
| bridges, airport in Istanbul. I bet you have never been in
| Istanbul
| csomar wrote:
| I've been multiple times and these large structures are
| mostly vanity projects for Erdogan.
| mda wrote:
| Eeh not really. People cares more of their houses definitely,
| the maintenance funding of mosques and hospitals are also
| entirely different. I don't think your assessment is
| realistic.
| plq wrote:
| As an Istanbul citizen, my personal impression is that there is
| a much more pragmatic reason.
|
| Istanbul still sees decent construction activity both downtown
| (where old buildings are torn down and replaced with taller
| ones) and in the suburbs (the city got so big that we
| inadvertently say "I'm going to Istanbul" when we really mean
| the city centre).
|
| So in theory, as the construction teams dig not only a wider
| area but also deeper, they _should_ discover more and more
| historical artifacts, right?..
|
| In Turkey, law says you can own the land but not any natural
| resources found underneath. So if word gets out that you've
| stumbled upon oil, stuff of archeological importance, gold etc.
| etc. while digging to lay foundations, your construction
| project is halted until the authorities decide what to do with
| your discovery. You may even be forced to sell your property
| back for its fair market value (ie. you get a decent offer but
| you can't refuse it -- you can just sue to get the offer
| increased)
|
| You probably see where this is going: The sytem as it is
| incentivizes any artifacts found during private construction
| activities to just vaporize. Tragic, but I don't know what
| could be done about this. Only stuff found on state-sponsored
| projects seem to see the light of day, and of those that do,
| only ones that are useful to politicians are made part of the
| daily government propaganda, so you don't really hear about
| others unless you make an effort.
|
| With this said, as a counterpoint maybe, they found a decent
| amount of stuff from non-Turkish / non-islamic periods during
| the recent boring operations for the newest subway line and
| they should be on display somewhere.
| guerby wrote:
| I think most countries have laws to handle archeology on
| building sites, in France it's called "archeologie
| preventive":
|
| https://www.culture.gouv.fr/Regions/Drac-Grand-
| Est/patrimoin...
|
| Then of course there is general attitude of the local
| population towards common goods like archeology and
| enforcement policies (or lack thereof).
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| This direct quote from the article seems to avert that exact
| issue:
|
| > Istanbul's Byzantine basement surfeit survives in part
| thanks to a 1980s cultural heritage code that allows people
| who find something ancient on their property to keep it,
| without worrying that the government will seize it.
|
| > "Thanks to this new law, a lot of historical things were
| protected by the locals in Istanbul," Ozgumus says. "Before,
| they were destroying it."
| 988747 wrote:
| Keeping the artifact is one thing, your construction
| project being delayed for months because now team of
| archeologists takes over and starts looking for more
| artifacts is another.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| I'm Greek and the same thing you descrie happens in Greece
| also. People dig to lay the foundations of their new house
| and find ancient ruins or artifacts. They whistle innocently
| and pay the engineer to cover them up and say nothing because
| they know that if they call the authorities it will take a
| decade before building work can proceed because this kind of
| thing is nobody's priority and the red tape is like the
| infinite tapes of a UTM. The total value of archaeological
| treasures buried under the foundations of summer houses and
| condos must dwarf everything displayed in museums around the
| world.
|
| As to Istanbul - the City has stood there for two and a half
| thousand years. If you dig under the Byzantine ruins, you'll
| find even more ancient ruins, thousands of years of layers of
| ancient ruins, one on top of the other like a mille-feuille.
| Who's going to excavate all that? Especially when there's,
| you know, _people_ living on top.
|
| And the same goes for all the large cities that have been
| inhabited since antiquity all around the world. Think Cairo,
| Alexandria, Rome, Naples, Plovdiv, Vukovar, Belgrade,
| Valencia, Damascus, Baghdad, Beijing, Nanjing, Kashgar,
| Delhi... phew. Here's more:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_continuously_in.
| ..
|
| So it's got nothing to do with "Osmanic heritage" or
| nationalism. It's just not a problem that can easily be
| solved.
| mrighele wrote:
| I think there are a couple of reasons which work one for the
| other.
|
| The first is the mentality of "conquest" that a part of the
| population (and the ruling party) share. Those people don't
| see byzantine-era artifacts as part of their history (unless
| it is a church converted to mosque). Many part of the ancient
| city have been left to rot and only with the latest
| (opposition-linked) administration some restoration work has
| started.
|
| The second reason is corruption: big construction companies
| own a good amount of the turkish media and state sponsored
| projects are one way for the ruling party to thanks them for
| a pro-government information landscape. As such the state has
| little interest in blocking a construction project because
| some artefacts were found. As a bonus, whatever is found can
| be sold to smugglers
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Letting things fall into disrepair is at least a gentle
| iconoclasm !
|
| Something I've wondered about art and traditions that predate
| Islam, is how many of those spiritual and material traditions
| were appropriated or assimilated into Islam and have survived
| for centuries by becoming mainstream. e.g. Christmas - the
| tree, the 3 days of the solstice relating to the resurrection,
| it was a long time before it became common knowledge that those
| "Christian" traditions pre-date Christ, right? So what ancient
| history is staring us in the face because we've been calling it
| Islamic all this time?
| tasogare wrote:
| Very few. The meteor of Kabaa is an exception. Otherwise
| islamic cultures are known for destroying archeological sites
| (Buddha statues in Afghanistan, Palmyr) even of their own
| religion (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_earl
| y_Islamic...).
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| I remember when those Buddha statues were blown up by the
| Taliban in 2001. It was international news:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan
| lostlogin wrote:
| > Otherwise islamic cultures are known for destroying
| archeological sites
|
| I'm not sure that this is an Islamic trait so much as a
| victor/oppressor behaviour.
|
| You see this in buildings throughout history, where the
| dominant power converts existing structures to their usage,
| or destroys things they don't want. It's how rulers seek to
| dominate.
| zwaps wrote:
| Turkish culture is filled with traditions that predate Islam
| and have, what Turks like to call, "Shamanic" origin. The
| divide may even be more stark, because while they are common,
| they are in some way counter to fundamentalist views (which,
| to be fair, are not common there as they are in some Arab
| countries).
|
| One way to approach the topic might be to watch "The Gift" on
| Netflix and realize that the book was written by a woman who
| practices (quite successfully, too) these Shamanic ideas.
| Then, the context would be that these sorts of stories and
| myths are extremely popular in Turkey (which is why the book
| was a hit) and that they live - in an uneasy, unspoken
| relationship - side by side with Islamic teachings that are
| culturally from a very different origin. Another option is to
| look at Sufism and its capricious relationship with official,
| state sponsored Islam. Many Turks I know like to view
| themselves as heavily inspired by Sufism.
|
| Not sure if I am qualified to explicate on traditions in
| detail, but my feeling is your intuition holds quite true, at
| least in Turkey. Many little things, from reading coffee, to
| marriage rituals, to protection against "evil eyes" and
| spirits, personification of devils and angels, things that
| are bad luck and generally most "Islamic" things that you
| find are unique to Turkey compared to Arab countries - are
| probably things that predate Islam.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| Reminds me of how Ankh-Morpork is mostly built on Ankh-Morpork,
| most people have basements they don't even know they have and
| dwards can dig through the lower, older layers of the city to get
| around without using the surface streets. I can't find a quote on
| the internet, but wikipedia says a few words about this:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh-Morpork#Geography
|
| Edit: Oh, wait, found it, here:
|
| _" To William's complete lack of surprise, the little cellar
| under the shed was much better built than the shed itself. But
| then, practically everywhere in Ankh-Morpork had cellars that
| were once the first or even second or third floors of ancient
| buildings, built at the time of one of the city's empires when
| men thought that the future was going to last for ever. And then
| the river had flooded and brought mud with it, and walls had gone
| higher and, now, what Ankh-Morpork was built on was mostly Ankh-
| Morpork. People said that anyone with a good sense of direction
| and a pickaxe could cross the city underground by simply knocking
| holes in walls."_
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/discworld/comments/8pt83h/can_anyon...
|
| Quoted from _The Truth_.
| Amin699 wrote:
| Nice Work
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