[HN Gopher] The Framework Laptop is now shipping
___________________________________________________________________
The Framework Laptop is now shipping
Author : ahaferburg
Score : 1312 points
Date : 2021-07-23 01:56 UTC (21 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (frame.work)
(TXT) w3m dump (frame.work)
| throwhands77 wrote:
| Something creepy about the hands in the animations. They look
| like man hands but they have nail polish and are somewhat
| feminine looking. I'm more confused and focused on them than the
| laptop.
| kybernetikos wrote:
| This looks really great, with some good choices for my kind of
| use - 3:2 screen, 1080 webcam, better than normal travel on the
| keys, and being able to easily upgrade memory and storage is a
| big deal.
|
| The reviews seem to be finding concerns with thermals while
| battery life and overall performance seems pretty so-so.
|
| I expect that battery life and performance could be improved
| through upgrading in the future, but it seems like thermals might
| be a difficult problem to fix.
| tinus_hn wrote:
| Interesting that that is a good choice, a webcam and a screen
| that can't display its images.
| stickyricky wrote:
| Have you sent out review units to any YouTubers?
| loufe wrote:
| In another comment thread someone mentioned LTT already
| released their review on their own platform, I think called
| Floatplane, which comes before their Youtube release.
| nrp wrote:
| Yes, but we'll have to let them make their own review
| announcements.
| bubblethink wrote:
| What type of wifi cards do these use ? Is it the cnvi type, which
| I think are semi-soldered ? Or is it the regular pcie type one ?
|
| Also, would like to see this reviewed by someone from the linux
| community (e.g., phoronix).
| nrp wrote:
| We use M.2 2230 WiFi cards, with both PCI-e and CNVi routed to
| the socket. For the pre-built systems, we install an AX201
| card. For DIY Edition, we offer AX210 or you can bring your own
| card.
| throwhands77 wrote:
| nice things very nice things about this laptop
| octos4murai wrote:
| Somehow this is the first I'm hearing of this, and yet I have
| never hit buy so quick.
|
| Even if, heaven forbid, this company is no longer around in five
| years when I need new parts, just the ability to upgrade RAM,
| SSD, etc is so valuable.
| twoslide wrote:
| If enough people buy, then the supply of parts could be
| independent of the company itself, as third-party manufacturers
| would probably see an opportunity.
| nrp wrote:
| Absolutely. We see the health of the ecosystem as a positive
| end state for us, regardless of whether we're selling the
| most modules or third parties are. We're standing up a
| marketplace to help foster that.
| MichaelMoser123 wrote:
| the keyboard looks very fragile, like that of a macbook. For me
| these tend to develop problems after a years use. I am not very
| fond of this type of keyboards. The old thinkpads used to have a
| solid keyboard, but that was once upon a time.
| naktinis wrote:
| Very excited to see modular and repairable tech in production!
| Just wanted to make a top-level comment in support of a
| trackpoint option. Given modular design and the Marketplace it
| could make sense to have a simple drop-in replacement for the
| keyboard module that would potentially lure many hardcore
| Thinkpad fans.
| pkulak wrote:
| Bit of an Escher thing going on here:
|
| https://images.prismic.io/frameworkmarketplace/cca31de3-3b75...
| CivBase wrote:
| Between this and the Steam Deck, there sure is a lot of new
| techcoming out that I wish I had a good excuse to buy.
| victor9000 wrote:
| This device is seriously the answer to all my laptop problems. I
| really like the form factor of the XPS 13, but now I'm stuck with
| the complete inability to upgrade RAM. In what universe is that
| normal? Then I accidentally nuked the USB-C ports on the left
| side when it got wet, and now I'm left with a single port for
| everything, including charging. What!? Why? I tore the entire
| thing apart and there's just no way to replace anything besides
| the SSD drive, everything else is soldered on. I'm in Batch 1 and
| can't wait to get my full purchase email. I seriously see this as
| an investment. I'll pay full price for a laptop once more, and
| then every other incident like this will just be parts and labor
| to get things back to square one.
| thaeli wrote:
| How long do you plan to keep your laptop? For my "carry with
| me" laptop, I just plan to replace it every four years and buy
| four years of accidental damage coverage. I break the ports or
| the screen, Dell comes out the next day and replaces it. For
| the machine I use to do my job, that's a great thing to have.
|
| I can see the advantage of fully serviceable if you're on more
| of a 7-to-10 year cycle, but then you have parts availability.
| I trust that Dell will still have service parts four years from
| now. I don't really have any reason to trust that this company
| will still exist four years from now, let alone still make a
| full line of upgrades.
|
| (Ironically, I've found that an old, out-of-warranty Dell is
| actually affordable to do major component repair on - because
| there are cheap screens, keyboards, even motherboards readily
| available. That sweet spot where a bunch of business machines
| are coming off-lease is when you can get a new screen for $35.)
| riedel wrote:
| Give me a keyboard with a trackpoint and I will give up
| thinkpads for the exact same reason.
| wnolens wrote:
| Not integrated into laptop, but since 99% of my laptop time
| is spent docked, i'm using
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
| zzzeek wrote:
| XPS13 here also, I love everything about it except my fingers
| have totally chewed through the keyboard and the keys are all
| popping off all the time now. you can't get replacement keys,
| I've tried ordering from those scammy places and what they send
| you is not exactly the right fit.
|
| broken keyboards / trackpads is why i keep having to throw out
| laptops and get new ones. so I am very interested in this
| laptop if they are actually going to make working keyboards /
| keys / trackpad replacements available.
| nrp wrote:
| Yes! We've designed the keyboard, the touchpad, and the full
| input cover to be replaceable modules. We've published guides
| for these: https://guides.frame.work/c/Framework_Laptop
|
| We'll be making the replacement modules themselves available
| later this summer.
| Naracion wrote:
| I am also very excited about this, but the Verge review says
| the build quality isn't great. We'll see I guess.
|
| I just hope that they release the next gen motherboard when it
| launches. Intel 12th gen, DDR5 RAM. I'm waiting for that big
| generational jump before making a purchase, and I really hope I
| can get a Framework.
| intricatedetail wrote:
| Soldering is not a problem. Your average tech should be able to
| rework most of the things, maybe except BGA stuff. Problem is
| no access to spare parts.
| neop1x wrote:
| Almost everything is BGA now, including RAM and data flash
| chips. Just bios flash chips are still often (not always)
| SOIC.
|
| BGA soldering is possible with more expensive IR or
| convection-based stations and a bit of skill too.
|
| But yes, parts are often not available at all or from
| unreliable sources with dubious quality.
| audunw wrote:
| You better get used to it. RAM is going to move closer and
| closer to the CPU for speed and power reduction. And every
| major laptop manufacturer will move that way to compete.
| Especially now that the M1 Mac has shown what's possible when
| every part of the system is optimized for low power.
|
| What we can hope for is that SSD acts more like RAM. Maybe it
| could have a decent sized RAM chip that the OS can dedicate as
| cache for virtual memory. There's a chance that at least some
| hardware manufacturers will continue to allow for replaceable
| SSDs.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Yeah, I'm really curious where they go from here because it
| seems like the lesson is that modularity has a major
| performance penalty.
| ribit wrote:
| Once you get to a certain stage, yes, modularity becomes
| very expensive. I do believe that things like SSDs or WiFi
| cards should be modular, because there is no reason for
| them not to, but RAM? We are moving towards high-bandwidth
| on-package RAM, why would I want to sacrifice 100Gbps of
| performance and 5+ hours of battery life -- not to mention
| also paying more -- just to have an option of upgrading the
| RAM some time down the line?
| emodendroket wrote:
| Right, and then even if you can upgrade the RAM, the
| machine may not even be compatible with the best RAM down
| the line anyway. It's hard to imagine another drop-in
| upgrade that will be as big as putting SSDs in old
| machines was.
| ribit wrote:
| > In what universe is that normal?
|
| In a universe where you want high-performance energy efficient
| RAM. Premium ultracompact laptops have long moved to LPDDR
| which is both faster and consumes significantly less energy
| than regular modular DDR. And LPDDR does not come in DIMMs. And
| then you have Apple who are using custom package technology
| with custom RAM chips to cut down RAM power consumption to
| under one watt active, delivering close to 20 hours battery.
| You simply can't have this with socketed RAM. Modularity is not
| a free lunch, as much as some people like to pretend.
| michalf6 wrote:
| I would really prefer that a laptop was just a tiny bit
| thicker to fit a 100WH battery to compensate for that. My
| T480 gets 12-16 hours with normal use, I imagine it could
| easily hit 20 with current processors.
| ddalex wrote:
| > a 100WH battery
|
| a hand grenade typically releases 250kJ, or about 70Wh
|
| you're asking for the equivalent of 1.5 grenades in your
| lap :)
| michalf6 wrote:
| Is it any worse than having 0.75 of a hand grenade on
| your lap? If it starts to smoke, you throw it away all
| the same. Besides, this capacity is standard in larger
| laptops, but not in smaller ones for some strange reason.
| hnbad wrote:
| > If it starts to smoke, you throw it away all the same.
|
| No. If it starts to smoke, you commit & push --force,
| then you throw it away.
| KMnO4 wrote:
| You can save a couple seconds with git-fire.
|
| https://github.com/qw3rtman/git-fire
| franga2000 wrote:
| 1.5 hand granades worth of LOW VOLTAGE ELECTRIC energy
| released into A CIRCUIT over A DAY or more and protected
| by multiple safety cut-off circuits with thermal and
| other sensors.
|
| vs
|
| A grenade releasing that as KINETIC energy into YOUR FACE
| over the span of LESS THAN A MILLISECOND and protected by
| a spring and a keychain ring.
|
| Even if a lithium battery of that size experienced a
| critical failure right in your lap, you'd get away with a
| few scars and some serious but treatable burns. And I've
| only heard of one commercial product in the last 15 years
| that had serial critical battery failures...
| [deleted]
| littlestymaar wrote:
| A chocolate tablet typically stores 4000kJ of energy. Yes
| that's 15 hand grenades, what are we waiting for: ban
| chocolate tablets now!
|
| And don't get me started on flour, not only it stores a
| ton of energy (50 grenades per kg) but it's also highly
| explosive! [1]
|
| [1]: (only with the right air to flour ratio of course,
| but accident happen every once in a while:
| https://www.grupa-wolff.com/a-tragic-flour-explosion/)
| ddalex wrote:
| The chocolate bar doesn't start a violent fire if
| pierced. If it would we could power our laptops with
| chocolate :)
|
| The flour conditions of exploding are far more difficult
| to achieve than a LiIon battery conditions - orders of
| magnitude difference.
| [deleted]
| amichal wrote:
| True, but not that hard. I had some "dangerous
| experiments for kids" book back in the day and by far the
| most fun thing in it was aerosolizing flour with a straw
| to get the right mixture near your Bunsen burner for your
| own glorious short lived fireball.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| > The chocolate bar doesn't start a violent fire if
| pierced. If it would we could power our laptops with
| chocolate :)
|
| Neither does a NiMH battery. There's no link between
| vulnerability to external damage and ability to power a
| laptop.
|
| In fact, there's no fundamental reason why we couldn't
| run our laptop on chocolate[1], just that it's very far
| away from current technology.
|
| [1]: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph240/ho2/
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| It's just that modern laptops run on Li-ion batteries.
| IncRnd wrote:
| In a world, somewhere, Flowers and Lions power laptops.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| Airlines tend to cap lithium-ion batteries at 100Wh, so
| it's quite common for laptops and power banks to go to or
| just shy of that.
| https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/11/apple-
| introduces-16-i... speaks of a 100Wh battery. My latest
| laptop has about a 90Wh battery.
|
| Hopefully your laptop and hand grenade have radically
| different power discharge profiles.
| ddalex wrote:
| > Hopefully your laptop and hand grenade have radically
| different power discharge profiles
|
| Li battery fires are not unheard of, unfortunately, so
| the profiles may start to resemble sometimes.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| Lithium batteries burn, quite quickly but it still takes
| a few seconds, that can be pretty dangerous indeed but
| that's several orders of magnitude slower than a grenade.
| grenoire wrote:
| The hand grenade is arguably better at releasing that
| energy at an instant.
| r9 wrote:
| There's a subtle difference. One is designed to release
| that energy in a fraction of a second in a frangible
| metal casing, the other is designed to release it over a
| number of hours. Yes, batteries can go wrong, just like
| any tech, but comparing them to hand grenades is just
| ludicrous.
| d110af5ccf wrote:
| > comparing them to hand grenades is just ludicrous
|
| Next, let's calculate the energy input required to heat a
| small cup of coffee and compare that to a hand grenade.
| (Hint: The coffee wins easily.) I wonder how many hand
| grenade equivalents a 10 minute lukewarm shower equates
| to?
| ljm wrote:
| In some universe there's an internal combustion shower
| powered entirely by an operator ripping out pull rings
| with their teeth and throwing armed grenades into a
| heating chamber.
|
| Preferably yelling 'fire in the hole!' each time.
| fulafel wrote:
| To keep your peace of mind, refrain from looking up the
| energy content of a pizza!
| rsynnott wrote:
| High-end 15" laptops already have 100Wh batteries, and
| 100Wh is the practical maximum. So abandoning LPDDR would
| lead to a reduction in battery life on the high end, which
| probably isn't going to fly.
| midasuni wrote:
| > isn't going to fly.
|
| Literally - 100Wh batteries are maximum you can take on
| planes
| rsynnott wrote:
| I promise that was an unintentional pun. But yeah, that's
| the limiting factor.
| baybal2 wrote:
| In US, on non international flights, you can take 160wh
| ones if they are replaceable.
|
| Strangely, the rule comes from ICAO.
|
| Some countries too follow the 160wh standard, but most
| airlines simply don't bother enforcing anything, but the
| lowest common denominator.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > In a universe where you want high-performance energy
| efficient RAM
|
| You are cherry-picking an example that fits only a specific
| category of laptops.
|
| Even so, CPU and RAM could be bundled together into a
| socketed cartridge that is easy to upgrade.
|
| The real reason is all about planned obsolescence and profit
| margins.
| nrp wrote:
| We believe that socketing memory is a good tradeoff to enable
| greater longevity through memory upgrades, and also a more
| useful upgrade path by being able to keep your memory during
| certain mainboard upgrades.
|
| In the DDR5 timeframe, there is less of a power delta as well
| between DDR5 and LPDDR5.
| intricatedetail wrote:
| The problem is not that the chip is soldered, but that you
| can't buy it. Soldering BGA is not that difficult.
| carlhjerpe wrote:
| I would have to leave it to a professional, I can barely
| solder connectors on my RC car power packs
| tomxor wrote:
| > In a universe where you want high-performance energy
| efficient RAM [.....] You simply can't have this with
| socketed RAM.
|
| You make it sound like a prerequisite. I'm pretty sure the
| reason LPDDR is Low Power is _not_ due to (currently) being
| unavailable in socketed modules - that would seem to be a
| side-effect of the original target market (smart phones).
|
| They are just some BGA packages, I see no reason they
| couldn't be soldered onto a board with a socket. If you scan
| through the features that make LPDDR LP, they have nothing to
| do with sockets, or anything affecting sockets: lower
| operating voltage, more power states, partial refreshing etc:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPDDR
| baybal2 wrote:
| Yes, as I wrote somewhere below, LPDDR4 signal is actually
| more robust than DDR4 signal, and LPDDR4 controllers have
| more features to fix degraded signals.
|
| DDR5 has more roots in the LPDDR4 than in the regular DDR4.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| There's no technical reason not to (I'm no EE but I'm sure
| it could be done somehow), but there's no demand for
| removable memory. The entire consumer PC market is already
| a rounding error for the semiconductor industry, and the
| enthusiast market that would be interested in this is a
| very small portion of that market.
|
| Like it or not, repairable/upgradable laptops are a thing
| of the past. There's just not component support or
| sufficient market demand to make the parts removable
| anymore.
| vimacs2 wrote:
| Way overstating your case. PC's might be on the decline
| but they are still far far from being a "rounding error
| for the semiconductor industry".
|
| Laptops also make up a major component of that still very
| alive market so no, I disagree that there is not enough
| market demand for having laptops that can be repaired or
| upgraded. It's the industry themselves that have worked
| to hamper the right of repair while giving nebulous
| pseudo-technical rationalizations for it.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| Modern laptop motherboards can easily be about the size
| of a cell phone. Most of the case is battery and the main
| board is a shrinking percentage of the BOM cost. The
| entire motherboard is the replaceable component. It's
| less "right to repair" than the additional components and
| design required to make them repairable are more
| expensive than just replacing the whole board.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| I don't know what kind of cell phone you have, but it's
| not an usual one: here is a picture of an open modern
| thinkpad https://gearopen.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/12/internals-15...
| wayoutthere wrote:
| That's a laptop from 2 years ago; the new M1 MacBooks are
| more indicative of where things are headed in the future.
| Things like memory and any custom ICs are just going to
| be integrated on the same silicon as the CPU in most
| cases.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| Here you go: https://eshop.macsales.com/blog/wp-
| content/uploads/2020/11/M...
|
| Still bigger than a smartphone (it occupies the entire
| width of the laptop (when counting the heatsink, 2/3 of
| the width otherwise), and around one quarter of the whole
| area).
|
| Also, your original sentence was
|
| > Modern laptop motherboards can easily be about the size
| of a cell phone.
|
| Here we see that the one and only best laptop in this
| regard comes close to the cell-phone-sized motherboard.
| That's far from what "modern laptop can _easily_ be"
| means. Most laptops sold today have a much bigger
| motherboard than this.
|
| (BTW, as much as I'd like to see non x86 laptops going
| mainstream, software compatibility is huge issue for an
| ecosystem as diverse as the Windows one (and Roseta 2
| being too much of a coinflip isn't encouraging...), we
| might get there at some point, put it's gonna be slow and
| painful.)
| vimacs2 wrote:
| Seems like a deliberate design choice, not some
| inevitable consequence of modernity. Why exactly does the
| board _need_ to be cell phone sized when the actual form
| factor of even a netbook is substantially larger?
| dhosek wrote:
| To fit more battery. Other than my Mac mini, every
| computing device (including watch and phone) I own is
| mostly battery inside.
| vimacs2 wrote:
| Which you could also do by simply making the device a
| little thicker and have a battery run the entire width of
| the device. Point is past a certain point, thinness
| becomes more of a drawback than a benefit, especially
| given the trade-offs involved.
| ineedasername wrote:
| You might want that trade off, but consumers in general
| have been leaning towards thinner and lighter for years.
| Just look around at complaints about the thickness of
| early android watches being too big and chunky. Or the
| huge popularity when the first MacBook Air came out.
|
| Given the option between thicker w/ a bit more battery
| life or thinner and lighter, consumers are choosing
| thinner and lighter.
| nightski wrote:
| Of course engineering is always a trade off, and it is
| possible to go too far in one direction. But it's not all
| or nothing, Apple is the one feeding us that false
| dichotomy.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| Battery is a big part of mobile devices of all kind, but
| it's not "mostly battery" for most of those.
|
| For instance, in a iPhone 11, the battery occupies less
| than half of the surface of the phone[1]. On a Macbook
| pro, it's about the same.[2] [1] see this ifixit video if
| you want to see it by yourself:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feyqwf3cYtw&t=161s
|
| [2] https://guide-
| images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/noPvQ2CLs1jptX2p.hug... You can
| see that the motherboard is much, much bigger than a
| smartphone.
| ineedasername wrote:
| It is mostly only a deliberate design choice in the sense
| that consumers have leaned towards designs that are
| smaller, lighter, and with longer battery lives.
|
| It doesn't matter that the rest of the form factor is
| larger: there's not a lot of empty space in these, so a
| larger main board will still mean a larger and heavier
| device.
| nrp wrote:
| ribit and others are correct. While this may have been
| possible in the past, at modern memory frequencies and
| timings, it's not really plausible to deviate from what the
| platforms are designed for: LPDDR being soldered and placed
| a specific layout area relative to the CPU, and for
| socketed DDR, the sockets being placed in one of a few
| placements relative to the CPU, with a little layout wiggle
| room.
|
| Edit: I guess to clarify, the plausibility challenge is
| that whether or not it is theoretically possible, the
| platform owner (Intel, AMD, etc) or the memory vendors
| (Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron) are unlikely to support the
| lark.
| ribit wrote:
| LPDDR is low power because it is a more sophisticated
| device with more complex protocol compared to regular DDR,
| because it has a higher pinout allowing it to have a more
| efficient electrical connection and because the computer
| manufacturer can optimize the connection with specific
| chips in mind instead of having to support a wide range of
| devices.
|
| I think the number of pins is a practical limitation.
| Current DDR DIMMs use 260-280 pins if I remember correctly,
| while an average LPDDR4X BGA package is 400 balls or
| higher. Apple uses chips with 877 balls. It is definitely
| possible to design modular RAM with high-pinout, but would
| it be economically feasible?
| [deleted]
| jdsully wrote:
| You can't compare balls on the BGA package to signal
| pins. The vast majority of these are for power and
| ground. LPDDR4 actually has fewer data lines than DDR4.
| rthomas6 wrote:
| It is if it's a standard that everyone decides to
| support...
| ribit wrote:
| That's the thing, who is everyone? Such technology would
| only be relevant to premium-level ultraportable
| notebooks. Desktops, gaming laptops as well as budget
| laptops would stick with the cheaper and more ubiquitous
| DDR. Smartphones and tables will continue to solder RAM
| on due to space constraints. Apple (who is the driving
| force in this market segment) won't be interested since
| they are going fully custom and I doubt that an LGA
| socket will work with their on-package custom-build wide
| RAM interfaces. So in the end we are left with things
| like Dell XPS 13, MS Surface and few others. These are
| all popular and impactful brands, but they are just a
| drop in the bucket compared to the total PC sales. And I
| doubt that technology reserved to only selected premium
| laptops is going to be cheap.
| [deleted]
| Brakenshire wrote:
| If LPDDR is faster won't desktops and gaming laptops also
| want it?
|
| One possible other compromise could be soldered LPDDR
| RAM, but with a DIMM expansion slot for DDR as well. I
| wonder whether the DDR could be switched off and the
| baseline power draw eliminated if the RAM usage was below
| needing it.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > If LPDDR is faster won't desktops and gaming laptops
| also want it?
|
| The desktop version of LPDDR4 is there, it's just called
| DDR5.
| eropple wrote:
| So I will preface this with that I'm not an expert. But
| as I understand it, multicore systems are already
| frequently NUMA, but to a degree that most stuff (I am
| eliding categories of code here, but you get the idea)
| don't have to _really_ care. From my understanding of how
| all this works, the difference of speed and bandwidth for
| LPDDR versus DDR seems like risking significant
| complexity for an expandability that few people would use
| and in turn cause an everything-or-nothing problem, where
| either high-performance code is written assuming anybody
| might have this, or nobody assumes it and you get a pile
| of stalls.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| You can fit FAR more signals on the bottom of a chip and
| in a multi-layer PCB than you can on any socket you might
| think of. There is a practical limit to how small the
| pitch of the pins on a socket can be if it's going to be
| field-replaceable; at high pin counts, the length of the
| socket itself becomes a driving factor.
|
| As an example, even moving away from edge-connectors
| (which are just a non-starter for 800+ pins) Samtec's
| highest-density high-speed connector, the NovaRay line
| [0] advertises 224 signals per square inch, so an 800 pin
| module would require 4 square inches of connector space
| alone, not to mention making the system PCB assembly
| thicker and compromising on speed, power and thermals.
|
| [0] https://www.samtec.com/connectors/high-speed-board-
| to-board/...
| kaibee wrote:
| So design it like a CPU socket? Laptops usually don't
| have socketed CPUs because they also need to mount a
| heatsink, but RAM doesn't have that issue.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| So an FM2 socket (to pick one of the more reliable ones),
| which has ~900 pins has a 4.5in^2 area and adds ~.25" in
| thickness, while reducing the maximum speed you can get
| through the chip at the very low voltages necessary to
| run LPDDR, which is what I meant by compromising speed
| and power.
|
| Not to mention that socketting parts reduces your
| production yield over SMT, increases your assembly cost,
| and cuts reliability (it's fine on a desktop because you
| almost never move your desktop, and there's usually a big
| thermal assembly bolted on top).
| ant6n wrote:
| Pentium m used to be socketed, pretty reliable, and
| available for thin laptops. I'm not trying to dismiss the
| difficulty, just saying they could perhaps be overcome
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Hardware engineering is ever thus: Difficulties can
| always be overcome, but every cost adds 5x that cost to
| the MSRP.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| We have cpus with lots of pins, nobody is stopping ram
| from switching to a cpu socket layout..
| emteycz wrote:
| Laptop CPU is onboard for the same reasons RAM is. This
| is not about the amount of pins, it's about power
| requirements for signal clarity.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| I've never done anything beyond amateur electronics, so
| sorry if I'm way off base here, but it at least seems
| intuitively plausible to me that soldering the components
| to the board allows them to work reliably at lower power.
| With a pin and socket connection, you've got to try and be
| at least reasonably resistant to corrosion or other sources
| of less-than-perfect connection.
|
| That said, I don't know that RAM chips are the hill I want
| to die on, anyway. Could we get to a better place if we
| dispensed with the whole, "just the one big motherboard,"
| design, and looked to the old backplane-style physical
| layouts? Then you could have a module that contains the CPU
| and RAM and suchlike all in a single package, and move
| other things that may not want to be quite as tightly
| integrated off to another package.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Up until relatively recently, a lot of laptops and even
| phones would put the connectors on separate PCBs
| connected by a ribbon, so that damaging those wouldn't
| mean a $500 motherboard replacement.
|
| I definitely remember ordering a replacement headphone
| socket board for an old MacBook and just putting it in
| myself, and I've done similar with, eg, the connector
| port board on a PS4 controller.
|
| But I guess this is one of the hazards of Apple having
| their AppleCare programme-- they can do the math and
| calculate that saving a dollar on the cost of making and
| mounting and connecting that extra component still makes
| them money even if they have to eat the occasional full
| motherboard in the first three years of ownership.
| ribit wrote:
| If I am not mistaken the ports on recent Apple machines
| are on a separate, easily replaceable board.
| sgerenser wrote:
| Doesn't appear to be the case on the 16" MBP: https://www
| .ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+16-Inch+2019+Tea...
| davweb wrote:
| Looking at this photo from that page it appears that they
| are: https://guide-
| images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/uavG2A3vFrVmwv6J.hug...
|
| You can see the ports still in place after the
| motherboard has been removed.
| sgerenser wrote:
| Interesting, didn't notice that. It looked like the logic
| board went all the way to the edges.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Seems like this stuff maybe comes and goes-- like here's
| a repair guide for a 2010-vintage MBP which definitely
| shows all the connectors being right on the logic board:
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Logic+Bo
| ard...
| hkt wrote:
| This sounds conspicuously like an Intel NUC, I think?
| neycoda wrote:
| I love the idea of needing to replace the laptop to upgrade
| RAM. /sarc
| lostlogin wrote:
| I find this to be less of an issue than the noise it
| generates. If you maximise ram at purchase, the limitations
| of a laptop seem to be battery and storage more than
| anything else. A 8 year old MacBook is just fine for a lot
| of usage, except for the dead battery and limited storage.
| Having these easily repairable would make my life a lot
| easier - this laptop looks great.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > Modularity is not a free lunch
|
| Hold on. This is true for excessive modularity.
|
| Yet, most of the time, lack of modularity (e.g. bundling)
| creates lock-in reducing customer's choice and ultimately
| increasing prices.
|
| When PCs became standardized (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible ) prices
| dropped incredibly.
| [deleted]
| xondono wrote:
| Modularity is a great feature, but modularity is a mobility
| killer.
|
| Modular laptops, phones, etc.. will be always penalized in
| terms of either performance or battery life for a given size.
| specialist wrote:
| Please forgive the hi-jack...
|
| FWIW, the book Design Rules: The Power of Modularity
| systematically explores the tradeoffs.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Design-Rules-Vol-Power-
| Modularity/dp/...
|
| Written by two economists, it's the only prescriptive
| definition of architecture that I've managed to find.
| Influenced me deeply.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| So why are you holding back on us? :) What are the main
| trade-offs?
| specialist wrote:
| Heh. Just what you'd guess. Interfaces allow separation
| of concerns, parallel dev efforts, competition.
| Integration allows optimization, at greater risk.
|
| Their core contribution is modeling the options with net
| present value (NPV) to remove the guess work.
|
| --
|
| Tangentially...
|
| They also explain the dependency structure matrix (DSM),
| a tool for modeling and visualizing architectures.
|
| One big takeaway for me was their explanation of
| "complexity catastrophe". The crossover point when the
| cost of change exceeds the benefit. A metaphor superior
| to most interpretations of "technical debt", IMHO.
|
| So when you have a DSM, these kinds of problems pop out,
| can't be ignored.
| franga2000 wrote:
| So just...put LPDDR on a DIMM? Or some other kind of
| removable slot?? I see no technical reason you couldn't.
|
| Or, instead of soldering chips, make little LGA slots for the
| individual chips. I can't imagine the tiny added resistance
| from an extra millimeter of wire and pin surface contact
| would impact much of anything and even if it does, I'd rather
| take that than have no options when the next Windows update
| makes my machine a paperweight (obviously exaggerating, but
| it's getting there).
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| The reason is signal integrity. Running a high speed signal
| (never mind a bus of 64+ of them) through a connector is
| hard and takes a lot of power because the connector can
| seriously degrade the signals. LPDDR can be low power
| because it doesn't have a "memory stick" abstraction, just
| memory chips and controllers. It's not the resistance that
| kills the signal, it's the inductance and the impedance
| mismatching.
| jackcviers3 wrote:
| 1 watt vs 2 Watts. Stop shilling.
| vbernat wrote:
| For something running at 5-6W while idle, this is not a
| small difference.
| bserge wrote:
| LPDDR3 DIMMs exist. I assume everyone is talking about
| LPDDR4, which seems to use 0.1V less.
|
| But the majority of people couldn't give a toss about how
| much of their laptop ends up in a landfill. They're using
| paper/glass straws, you see.
|
| Perhaps electronics landfills should be local again.
| pclmulqdq wrote:
| I think you're referring to DDR3L DIMMs, which are just a
| down-volted version of DDR3. LPDDR has never had DIMMs
| because of signal integrity issues. They take power to
| resolve.
| nspattak wrote:
| Can you please point us to some technical report or something
| where they document the energy saving of moving from dimm
| slots to soldered ram/ssd ?
| franga2000 wrote:
| I don't think you'll find any. The way I understand it, the
| savings come from the new LP variant of DDR chips and
| nobody ever bothered to put them on DIMMs.
|
| And even if the DIMM design (it's more than just a slot)
| doesn't make sense anymore, we could easily make a new
| "dumb" memory slot standard that would allow us to swap out
| the chips directly - like we have for CPUs.
| foldr wrote:
| > we could easily make a new "dumb" memory slot standard
| that would allow us to swap out the chips directly - like
| we have for CPUs.
|
| You could, but it would take up a lot of space, given the
| higher pin count, and would most likely increase power
| consumption.
| ribit wrote:
| Unfortunately, I am not aware of any document like that.
| There are some papers comparing everything efficiency of
| different types of RAM, and there is of course indirect
| evidence of premium notebooks having significantly improved
| the battery life after moving to LPDDR.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| LPDDR does many, many things to reduce power consumption
| (the current version even does DVFS, which I think is a
| first for main memory; graphics cards have been doing
| interface DFS for a long time, but a high end graphics
| card will burn around 30-70 W in the memory chips, and
| uses extremely high speed PHYs running at around 20
| GBit/s _per pin_ in the current generation).
|
| The only thing that really changes between DIMM and
| soldered on is a somewhat increased trace length. That
| accounts only for a very small increase in power.
| foldr wrote:
| > That accounts only for a very small increase in power.
|
| What are you basing this statement on?
| formerly_proven wrote:
| PHY is only part of the DRAM chip, and trace length is
| only a part of what determines energy per bit, so
| increasing trace length by x % wouldn't increase overall
| power by x %, but a fraction of that. Thinking about it,
| there is a bigger problem than just energy/bit scaling;
| since LPDDR switches dynamically between high-speed and
| lower speed modes, the high speed mode is likely not used
| a lot. However, the low speed modes rely on being able to
| turn the termination off, which saves significant amounts
| of power. A socket may make that difficult to achieve,
| and if you have to run with ODT in the, I'm assuming,
| mostly-used low power mode, you might end up with a
| significant increase in power.
| ribit wrote:
| By the way, check out reviews of the Framework Laptop for a
| first-hand illustration of this effect. They seem to be
| getting 40-50% lower battery runtimes than laptops with
| comparable specs. That's example the problem -- of you
| design for modularity, you have to leave some optimizations
| on the table.
| nrp wrote:
| The battery impact for us at this point is likely more a
| factor of additional firmware and driver tuning that we
| need to do. We've tested to 10-11 hours in MobileMark
| 2018, but have actually seen video playback runtime
| (which should be a lighter load) drop below that due to
| some audio driver issues that we're working through.
|
| There is certainly some impact to using DDR4 instead of
| LPDDR4, but we believe it is still the better choice for
| most consumers by allowing for greater product longevity
| at lower cost.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| That doesn't in any way tease out the effects of sockets
| it seems impossible that that doubles power usage.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Doubtful, the Framework laptop is pretty much like any
| other USB-C-based laptop, except that it reserves some
| space inside the chassis so that the adapter dongles are
| flush with the case.
| Const-me wrote:
| RAM energy efficiency is not important because very small
| fraction of the energy consumed by other components.
|
| It only somewhat matters for power consumption in sleep mode
| when the RAM is the only component being powered, but at
| least on Windows that's solvable with a fast SSD and
| hibernation.
| ribit wrote:
| RAM energy efficiency is extremely important because it is
| a significant part of the baseline power consumption.
| Power-hungry components like CPU and GPU can be run in the
| lowest power state most of the time, so it really comes
| down to RAM and the display. If you have a 60Wh battery and
| want to get 15 hours battery life, you need to get your
| idle power consumption under 4 watts. So even 0.5 watt in
| baseline RAM consumption makes a huge difference.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| I recall underclocking the RAM on my video card a few
| years ago when in desktop mode. Reduced the heat in the
| PC case by several degrees.
| Const-me wrote:
| Performance difference between system RAM and VRAM is an
| order of magnitude. Specifically, DDR4-3200 peaks at 25.6
| GB/second per channel, modern high-end GPUs peak at
| 500-900 GB/second depending on the GPU model.
|
| VRAM consumes substantial power to deliver that
| performance. On many GPUs, VRAM chips are actively
| cooled. System RAM doesn't even need passive heatsinks,
| uses too little electricity to care.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| GPUs do use fairly fine-grained dynamic frequency scaling
| on their memory chips for precisely this reason: having a
| top-end GPU run at around 15-20 W under light loads
| simply wouldn't be possible otherwise.
| andresgottlieb wrote:
| Why is it that you can't have this with socketed RAM? Is
| there a physical limitation?
| raxxorrax wrote:
| I have absolutely no idea, but I guess the bus to the
| processor and other periphery could indeed be a weak point
| because of EM-interference. We have absolutely crazy data
| rates here and therefore very high frequency signals so
| proximity between components might indeed matter.
|
| That said, manufacturers have huge ambition to not allow
| for modular design.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I imagine you may have some difficulty getting the pins to
| make contact if they're too small.
| franga2000 wrote:
| Modern CPUs are an order of magnitude more complex and
| usually built on a smaller process, yet we have no
| trouble putting them on intermediary PCBs to spread out
| contacts and allow larger pins. I see no reason we
| couldn't make LGA sockets for DRAM chips in the same way.
| bserge wrote:
| Yeah... sadly CPUs in laptops have been soldered for a
| while now.
|
| The same CPUs that have a socket equivalent for desktops.
| It's a travesty.
| ribit wrote:
| The beauty and success of DIMM modules is that they are a
| simple slide-in to install technology. It's easy to
| operate, cheap, robust, and it is very space efficient.
| Imagine RAM modules in an LGA socket instead... how much
| space would it require? How robust would it be? What will
| be the price? I am quite sure all of these issues can be
| solved, but is it worth it? Let's be honest, users who
| are interested in having upgradeable RAM in their
| ultraportable laptop are such a small minority that the
| practical interest in developing modular low-powered RAM
| is close to zero.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| The practical interest might be close to zero because in
| the past memory upgrades a number of years down the road
| were one of the most common upgrades and added tremendous
| value and another few years of life. Similarly many older
| laptops got a second life by being upgraded to SSDs.
| Accidents like that, which prevent sales of new units,
| can't happen if storage and memory are soldered on.
|
| I don't think this is the driver of these decisions per
| se, but it is undeniably a bonus for the manufacturer;
| non-upgradable devices become obsolete faster,
| necessitating new replacements.
| codedokode wrote:
| Also even when RAM was replaceable, many manufacturers
| put low limits on its size, I guess for the same purpose.
| Stratoscope wrote:
| I don't know about other brands, but for ThinkPads (both
| in the IBM and Lenovo eras), there was often a stated
| maximum RAM that was based only on the capacity of
| SODIMMs available at the time of manufacture.
|
| But it wasn't an artificial limitation. In practice, once
| larger capacity memory became available with the same
| technology and form factor, it would work fine. I have
| upgraded several ThinkPads with memory beyond what the
| original datasheets said was possible.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Not much. LPDDR4 signalling is actually more robust than
| that of regular DDR.
|
| It's not physically impossible to make DIMMs with LPDDR4,
| just nobody really wanted to come with a standard.
| ribit wrote:
| As far as I understand, a number of things make a
| difference:
|
| - Socketed RAM is limited by the number of pins, DDR SO-
| DIMM for example has 2-3x fewer pins than your average
| LPDDR4X module. Having more pins helps running the chips on
| lower power as it was explained to me by an engineer
| (something to do with grounding and lower voltage, I am not
| really sure how it works but I trust the guy)
|
| - Socketed RAM is a least common denominator, there will
| inevitably be some variance between different modules,
| which leaves you with less possibilities for optimizing the
| electrical connection
|
| - Current LPDDR is much more sophisticated than regular
| DDR, the protocol is different etc. So you can't just stick
| LPDDR chips on a DDR SO-DIMM and expect it to work
|
| I am sure one could design a modular system based on LPDDR,
| but the question is whether such system would be feasible.
| It would be limited to premium laptops only (as modular
| system would take too much space in a smartphone), it would
| probably need a higher pinout (which would mean a complex
| mounting bracket of some sort) and it would require laptop
| manufacturers to agree on a certain standard.
|
| There are other considerations as well, especially if one
| wants to break the current performance boundaries. For
| example, Intel has announced that they will integrate HBM
| with their upcoming Xeons. How do you intend to make that
| socketable, that's 2048-bit memory bus. Or consider Apple's
| new in-house SoCs. By mounting RAM directly onto the
| package substrate they can potentially deliver high-
| bandwidth RAM in an energy efficient package without
| increasing the cost and the complexity of the mainboard.
| E.g. their upcoming hardware is widely expected to use
| 256-bit RAM, something that has so far been reserved for
| workstations. As you make the interface wider and wider,
| modularity becomes more and more expensive. Why don't GPU's
| offer modular RAM for example?
| codedokode wrote:
| RAM could be packed together with a CPU on a replaceable
| board.
| [deleted]
| emilfihlman wrote:
| >You simply can't have this with socketed RAM.
|
| [Citation needed], there is no real electrical engineering
| reason why you couldn't.
| jackcviers3 wrote:
| 1 watt active is low. But so is 2 for dimm ddr3 [1]. They
| switched to make upgrading more difficult.
|
| "Typical Power Consumption of PC Components - Power Draw in
| Watts" https://www.buildcomputers.net/power-consumption-of-
| pc-compo...
| eropple wrote:
| You've repeated this in a few places in this thread with
| this same sort of conspiratorial air, but when you are
| talking about south of 10W total consumption (sometimes
| south of 6W!), a watt is a very significant amount and has
| a very large impact on overall battery life.
| howinteresting wrote:
| Then make the CPU+RAM user-replaceable.
|
| Where there's a will there's a way. The problem is there's no
| will.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> but now I'm stuck with the complete inability to upgrade
| RAM. In what universe is that normal?_
|
| Apple's? And Dell's? And Lenovo's? And every other electronics
| manufacturare who benefits form planned obsolescence and
| selling more hardware.
| the_biot wrote:
| What a bunch of nonsense. These are tiny laptops, and every
| bit of space inside is used. Soldering on RAM chips is an
| obvious optimization to make the laptop thinner. What were
| you expecting, a DIMM slot that's taller than the actual
| laptop body?
| plater wrote:
| For the very thinnest of laptops it's probably difficult
| without soldering the chips on board, but many users would
| prefer a slightly thicker laptop where you can replace the
| RAM, SSD etc. I have never had a laptop where the thickness
| has been an issue and I have done a fair share of traveling
| while working in sales.
|
| It's like a thoughtless race to make the thinnest laptop as
| if that is something that is useful. I bit like the
| megapixel race a few years ago. "We do it because it's
| difficult, but we can" kind of thing.
|
| And then we have the aluminum body used on higher end
| laptops. Is that really better than high-end well designed
| plastic? When using my wife's Macbook Air M1 I suffer from
| the razor sharp edges while typing. (Maybe not related to
| it's thinness or aluminum body, but a big design issue).
| Has anyone noticed on the Macbook Air M1 the small
| vibrations it causes in the hands/palms when you slide them
| over the palmrest ever so slightly? Extremely annoying.
| kaszanka wrote:
| I bet these "small vibrations" are due to some kind of
| coupling between the mains and the case. Dunno, not an
| electrical engineer. See if it still happens on battery
| power.
| plater wrote:
| No, it's nothing electrical. It's all mechanical. It's
| the surface which is slightly striped or bubbly or
| whatever and when sliding the hand or finger lightly over
| it, it generates a vibrating feeling. It might be less
| now after some months of use. Maybe the small cracks are
| filled with finger fat or something :).
|
| The sharp edges are still there though.
| nebula8804 wrote:
| Are you sure? I've also had this vibrating issue and for
| me 100% it was some sort of grounding issue with the
| power. Have you tried testing it when the ac adapter is
| disconnected? Its sort of feels like a very low amperage
| electrocution whenever you rest your hand on the
| laptop(if you know what getting electrocuted feels like)
| nrp wrote:
| That is likely correct. Lenovo has an article about it
| here: https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/ht505170
| -informat...
|
| We actually use a 3-prong AC cable to prevent this from
| occurring.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> What a bunch of nonsense. These are tiny laptops, and
| every bit of space inside is used. Soldering on RAM chips
| is an obvious optimization to make the laptop thinner._
|
| _THIS_ is nonsense. Dell, HP, Lenovo, even Fujitsu-Siemens
| have been making thin laptops with upgradable RAM for years
| now (XPS, X1 Carbon and LIFEBOOK series come to mind). Just
| recently they abandoned this and moved to soldering
| everything. The Framework Laptop also has upgradable
| everything and it 's not super thick now, is it?
|
| Sure, if you want to set a world record for thinness just
| because, then sure, soldering everything saves you a couple
| of mm but it's not why they do it in most cases, but to
| force planned obsolescence.
| morganvachon wrote:
| > Dell, HP, Lenovo, even Fujitsu-Siemens have been making
| thin laptops with upgradable RAM for years now (XPS, _X1
| Carbon_...
|
| You're just throwing names out there without even knowing
| what you're talking about. The very first generation X1
| Carbon came with soldered RAM and no upgrade path, and
| that hasn't changed yet. I know this because I've owned
| several generations of that laptop. I just checked
| Wikipedia to back up my memory before posting and yes,
| every X1 Carbon has had soldered RAM going all the way
| back to the first generation with Ivy Bridge.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_X1_series#X1_Carbo
| n
| oldandboring wrote:
| A better example would probably be the Lenovo T-series.
| Recent models eg. T490s have soldered RAM, but if you go
| back to eg. T460s there were DIMM sockets for upgrading,
| and the laptop was quite thin. But, that was 5 years ago
| already.
| Multicomp wrote:
| I too am dismayed by how older models of thin laptops
| lost DIMM sockets for increasingly diminishing amounts of
| thickness removed.
|
| I ended up going with the below because I wanted a 360
| degree touchscreen Ryzen laptop that I could upgrade the
| HD and RAM...and I felt like I was searching for a needle
| in a haystack. Shame on you Dell for never offering Ryzen
| in your convertibles. Shame on you HP for soldering RAM
| in your new Elitebook line.
|
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/HP-
| ProBook-x360-435-G7-laptop-...
| vimacs2 wrote:
| I would point out though that while he might have been
| wrong on the X1 Carbon, you still have not really
| dismantled the key argument - that you don't need to
| embrace soldered RAM to get laptops that are _thin
| enough_. At a certain point, you 're just going to end up
| with an experience that is objectively worse since
| keyboards start having more and more give the thinner you
| make them (not to mention far worse feel).
|
| I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway.
| least wrote:
| > I'd make the trade off for more mm of thickness anyway.
|
| That's great, then you can buy this modular laptop or one
| of many laptops that still has user upgradeable ram.
| Turns out you don't have to make this compromise if you
| don't want to and people that do can also make their own
| choice!
| vimacs2 wrote:
| Ah yes, the "free market" argument. Remind me of how that
| one went with the headphone jack. Seems I have less and
| less choices in that department these days, especially at
| the flagship tier - despite it objectively being a worse
| device for it with almost no positives except saving a
| little bit of cost for the manufacturer. I do not accept
| the arguments on it being necessary for water resistance
| or providing much saving of internal storage either -
| since we have devices that demonstrate how these claims
| are bunk.
|
| My point is that maybe there needs to be an organised
| pushback against this instead of pretending like
| customers have perfect knowledge of the drawbacks and
| benefits associated with a particular design decision and
| are not at all affected by marketing.
| least wrote:
| The free market is allowing a company like this one to
| exist because they're banking on there being enough
| people that care about this sort of thing to buy into
| their device rather than buying from a well established
| brand. That assumption will be put to the test very soon
| and advocates for this sort of device have a great
| opportunity to do so. The bitter reality though is that
| there might be a market large enough to sustain a company
| like this, but it won't make any big waves in the
| industry as a whole. Because people generally don't care.
|
| > Seems I have less and less choices in that department
| these days, especially at the flagship tier
|
| You're making a conscious decision about what sort of
| compromises you're willing to make with regards to your
| devices, just as everyone else is that buys electronic
| devices. There are plenty of phones with headphone jacks
| that have premium hardware specs. Sure, Apple doesn't
| have it. Samsung doesn't. But plenty of other
| manufacturers do, and people aren't buying them. Sony's
| top of the line smart phones have a headphone jack. LG's
| Vx0 line had headphone jacks and a fancy DAC built into
| them. ASUS's RoG phones have a headphone jack too.
| There's plenty of choice if it's actually that important
| to you. Buy those devices and hope that you can convince
| enough other people that the feature is as important to
| them as it is to you.
|
| You don't need to shit on other people's choices nor
| assume that they aren't informed about the choices they
| make to want for the things that you do.
| goodpoint wrote:
| > The free market is allowing a company like this one to
| exist
|
| The "free market" is controlled by a very small set of
| conglomerates.
|
| They get caught red handed deploying anticompetitive
| strategies every other week.
| least wrote:
| Yet this product is still coming to market despite that.
| morganvachon wrote:
| I wasn't trying to dismantle an argument, just pointing
| out that the parent had no clue what they were talking
| about, and a little research would make for a stronger
| position to argue from (and save some embarrassment).
|
| I actually prefer laptops with upgradeable components and
| I'm definitely weighing replacing my two aging Thinkpad
| laptops (running OpenBSD and Void Linux respectively)
| with the Framework Laptop. I had briefly considered a M1
| MacBook Air but I already have a M1 Mac mini and I try to
| stay diverse between form factors. The specs on the
| Framework are fantastic; even the i5 is a powerhouse,
| comparable to i7 desktops from just two years ago[1].
| With the modular bays I could easily have Void on the
| main storage and OpenBSD on a module and choose between
| the two. I already have compatible RAM and M.2 storage
| laying about so the DIY SKU is a no-brainer.
|
| As for keyboards I'm right there with you; the higher
| travel on the Framework's keyboard is another selling
| point in my opinion.
|
| [1]
| https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-8700-vs-
| Intel-...
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Sorry, I got the X1 carbon wrong from a list of 3 laptops
| off the top of my head. I must have been thinking of
| another Lenovo and mixed them up.
|
| What I don't understand is why you felt the need to get
| aggressive and diss me in 2 different posts saying I have
| no clue what I'm talking about or that I'm making stuff
| up and calling for my embarrassment, only for a small
| mistake, when you could have made the same arguments
| without the personal dissing.
|
| I feel like being kind to others, even if they're wrong,
| goes a longer way in productive discussions. I definitely
| will not be replying to you again. Have a good day sir.
| vimacs2 wrote:
| Now that's what I call a courteous roundhouse kick to the
| social nads courtesy of the great Chuck Norris.
| raffraffraff wrote:
| Who's got the balls to disagree with Chuck Norris?
|
| I would usually go for a smaller, lighter laptop (13").
| But within that form factor, given choice over trade
| offs, I would put performance last (any modern system
| will usually do), size and weight somewhere in the
| middle, battery life and repairability at the top.
| tootie wrote:
| I bought a few Acer's for my kids and upgrades were still
| really easy. I actually bought extra RAM and an SSD and had
| my daughter install them and it wasn't difficult.
| victor9000 wrote:
| Common? Yes. Normal? No. RAM is sold by the stick in any
| configuration you can imagine, yet these products are
| designed to prevent the simplest of upgrades. It's like being
| told that you need a new car because you want snow tires.
| richardwhiuk wrote:
| As the comment above states, LPDRR RAM is apparently not
| sold in DIMM form.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> RAM is sold by the stick in any configuration you can
| imagine, yet these products are designed to prevent the
| simplest of upgrades._
|
| Of course, but most consumers outside of tech enthusiasts
| have no idea which stuff in their laptop is upgradable,
| even when it is, so they just buy a new device whenever
| they want to upgrade, because that's how they've been
| conditioned by the industry.
|
| _> It's like being told that you need a new car because
| you want snow tires._
|
| Let's not give Tesla any ideas now. Joking aside, your
| comparison is not apples to apples. You can't easily
| upgrade the engine of your car from a four cylinder to a V8
| if you need more power down the line, can you? Come to
| think of it, even upgrading the multimedia unit is a hassle
| in modern cars as each unit is locked to its production
| vehicle. On this note, when do we go after car
| manufacturers for this anti-consumer practice?
| eptcyka wrote:
| There are companies who's livelihood is replacing a 4
| cylinder engine in an MX-5 with an LS V8.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Yeah, but we were talking about "user upgradeable" here.
| Even my local dealer won't upgrade engines and most car
| owners have no idea how to change their oil or a tyre,
| let alone perform engine transplants.
|
| One-off custom cars are a different thing same how there
| are YouTubers putting headphone jacks in their iPhones or
| upgrading the soldered VRAM of their Nvidia graphics
| cards.
| hnbad wrote:
| > most car owners have no idea how to change their [..]
| tyre
|
| Is this a regional thing? In Germany changing a tire is
| part of the "theory" classes. It's also fairly
| straightforward.
|
| Changing oil on the other hand is illegal except in
| places with special drainage systems (like gas stations)
| because of the risk of environmental damage from spills,
| so it's not generally something you can do yourself. This
| restriction also goes for washing your car I think but
| some gas stations have places where you can wash your car
| if you don't want to use a car wash.
| eptcyka wrote:
| Yes, but a lot of car owners _do_ change their own parts,
| replacing various filters, adding bolt-on parts, changing
| out suspension, tyres and the like. Just because most
| people do not do this, doesn 't mean that this is
| something that should be forbidden or designed against.
| Cars are built to have replaceable parts, why can't
| laptops be the same? There are issues with the M1
| equipped macbooks burning through flash due to users
| swapping out of the 16 gigabytes of memory that are not
| expandable. I don't want hardware designers to be
| legislated out of being able to do interesting things
| with packaging, like with what AMD is trying to do with
| integrating memory chips vertically on top of their SoCs,
| but I would appreciate if there was less hardware turned
| into e-waste due to a single formerly-user-replaceable
| chip failing or being deprecated.
|
| Likewise, I'd also like to see less e-waste due to
| software deprecation (looking at you, Pixel 3).
| sz4kerto wrote:
| Cars don't need to be very small. Repairability depends
| on modularity, modularity requires compromises about
| size.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> Just because most people do not do this, doesn't mean
| that this is something that should be forbidden or
| designed against._
|
| And where did I say that reparability must be forbidden?
|
| I was saying hat operations like transplanting a more
| powerful engine into your car is rare and difficult
| nowadays since grandparent made a reference to cars being
| easier to upgrade than laptops when that's not always
| true.
| eptcyka wrote:
| Cars are still easier to work on than laptops in relative
| terms of how many parts are user replaceable relative to
| the total amount of parts. Regardless, changing the
| engine is more similar to swapping out the whole
| motherboard and CPU. Not something the majority of
| enthusiasts would ever do, but there are some boutique
| shops that transolant modern hardware into X60 thinkpad
| chassis.
|
| Anyway, swapping an LS into a modern miata is pretty
| simple and it integrates well due to everything being
| CANBUS compatible, after a sufficient amount of adapters
| is applied.
| victor9000 wrote:
| >but most consumers outside of tech enthusiasts have no
| idea which stuff in their laptop is upgradeable
|
| That goes for everything though, most people don't know
| how a car works, yet you can replace every single
| component. The same goes for desktop computers and
| household appliances.
|
| This has been the norm across many technical devices that
| have become part of everyday life. How many regular users
| know how a radio works? The point is that regardless of
| how technical they are, these devices have remained
| repairable by anyone who is so inclined.
|
| The movement to proprietize basic maintenance on the part
| of manufacturers is purely profit driven, and is carried
| out at the expense of consumers, the environment, and
| overall innovation.
| Delk wrote:
| You're not wrong, but there are a couple of things here
| that rub the me wrong way.
|
| > Of course, but most consumers outside of tech
| enthusiasts have no idea which stuff in their laptop is
| upgradable, even when it is, so they just buy a new
| device whenever they want to upgrade, because that's how
| they've been conditioned by the industry.
|
| While that's true, that doesn't mean it _should_ be that
| way. Having everyone buy a new device whenever they need
| to upgrade makes business sense for device vendors but
| IMO we definitely shouldn 't encourage regularly tossing
| out good hardware. Not with the ecological costs of new
| electronics.
|
| We don't need to turn everyone into a tech enthusiast or
| a computer service person. But if part replacements and
| upgrades were possible and people knew about it, a local
| shop or someone else could do the job for them.
|
| > Come to think of it, even upgrading the multimedia unit
| is a hassle in modern cars as each unit is locked to its
| production vehicle.
|
| The original comparison to cars might have been
| unfortunate (as usual), and you may be right that things
| aren't that different with cars. But again, things being
| in a certain way with cars doesn't mean that's how they
| should be with other devices. Or with cars, necessarily,
| but I don't know much about those so I'm not going to
| argue about that.
| amelius wrote:
| "Make a system that even morons can use, and only morons
| will use it."
| tpush wrote:
| That's both condescending and evidently not true at all.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Relatively speaking I guess it is true? If your system is
| so hard to use that only power users consider it, you'll
| only have power users, but those represent less than 1%
| of the population.
|
| If you make it simpler, you'll get all 100% of users, but
| now 99% of them are evidently less capable of using the
| system.
| Google234 wrote:
| Tires are more like the plastic rubber things on the bottom
| of the laptop. What you want is to upgrade the engine.
| spijdar wrote:
| Does the analogy really work, though? Is RAM more akin to
| tires or some other component like the fuel tank?
|
| I'd argue existence of interchangeable commodity components
| in computing has been very _abnormal_ and because of the
| direction the "computer market" is going, I'm not sure how
| much longer it'll persist.
|
| For now, it's still most profitable for the manufacturers
| and OEMs to source cheap interchangeable parts from many
| sources. If the industry consolidates even more, though, it
| may be more profitable to vertically integrate. That was
| the way before the PC clone market. Hopefully not, but
| we'll see.
| hughrr wrote:
| Realistically 99% of the corporate and consumer laptops I have
| been party to are built to order with the right amount of RAM
| in and never upgraded. Those of us who actually upgrade are an
| insignificant minority at this point or pulling them out of the
| ex corp recycling lifecycle.
|
| Another point is stuff that is soldered in is a lot more
| reliable as a whole. Amazing how many old machines can be
| resurrected by reseating the RAM.
|
| Really I'm on the fence. I'm sitting here on a 16Gb M1 MBA
| also.
|
| Now what I really want to see is replaceable USB-C ports. Those
| have a massive repair and replacement risk over the normal
| lifetime of a laptop. Lenovo / Dell etc solder them directly to
| the motherboard. One bad knock and the whole thing goes in the
| trash. At least Apple stick them on a daughterboard.
| Delk wrote:
| Maybe it's because I'm often looking at business-oriented
| laptops as a consumer, but I usually find the RAM and storage
| to be on the low side compared to the CPU specs.
|
| I don't need a top-of-the-line i7 CPU (the improvement when
| going from e.g. an i5 usually isn't enough to really matter),
| and the premium you pay isn't negligible. On the other hand,
| the lower-end models that don't splurge on an i7 and come
| with a mid-range CPU such as an i5 instead still often have
| only 8 GB of RAM. That's definitely not future-proof or even
| present-proof for a laptop that otherwise has mid-range specs
| in terms of performance.
|
| It seems ridiculous that you have to either pay for a top-of-
| the-line model or be stuck with sub-par RAM for the entire
| lifetime of the device.
|
| Corporations will of course happily buy the higher-end model
| for their developers, so this probably isn't a problem in an
| actual corporate environment.
| dsr_ wrote:
| The approach Qualcomm has taken in their flagship ARM
| processors is probably correct for laptops as well as
| phones.
|
| There are four low-power single thread cores. They do grunt
| work at high efficiency but low capability.
|
| There are three medium-power single thread cores. They suck
| up more electricity when in use but can get tasks that the
| user cares about accomplished, and sleep all the time that
| the phone is not running the UI.
|
| Then there is one high-power single thread core, which is
| just a turbo-speed variant of the medium cores. That's the
| one that wakes up for user interaction.
|
| Of course, if you can scale power-consumption and computing
| together, you would just make an 8-core high-power chip and
| sleep and throttle on demand -- or, in-between, Apple's M1,
| which has four low and four high cores.
| schmorptron wrote:
| There are somewhat reliable rumors that intel are doing
| exactly this big.LITTLE config in the near future. [0]
| https://wccftech.com/intels-alder-lake-platform-will-
| introdu...
| piyh wrote:
| The reviews on those Intel heterogenous cores were
| terrible in both battery life and performance. Intel
| gonna Intel.
| schmorptron wrote:
| Maybe they're looking to start on a clean slate with
| their RISC-V investments then, they're late to the ARM
| game and will never catch up to apple or probably even
| qualcomm, their x86 designs are slowly and surely
| dropping off, and they'd have to make massive strides to
| change that.
| nIHOPp6MQw0f5ut wrote:
| It isn't a rumor. Intel announced it at CES.
|
| https://www.techradar.com/news/intel-teases-alder-lake-
| cpus-...
| nrp wrote:
| This was definitely a driver for us. We want to let
| consumers buy exactly the machine they need in the near
| term (CPU, memory, and storage), and be able to upgrade
| just the parts that they need to later.
| emodendroket wrote:
| Supporting tons of slightly different configurations is an
| impediment to efficient operations though. There's some
| logic to doing things that way.
| thow-01187 wrote:
| Unfortunately, more often than not, the logic behind it
| is market segmentation, not technical or operational
| efficiency
| emodendroket wrote:
| I'm not sure which is the main thing and which is the
| pleasant side effect but I have to imagine both
| considerations enter their minds.
| davidy123 wrote:
| I don't see why that's the case for Lenovo though (which
| I'm most familiar with - Thinkpads), since you have to
| order online. They could do batches of different
| configurations, it might add a small delay for particular
| configurations, but that would be ok. What they do now,
| mostly limiting larger RAM/storage configs to top end
| CPUs, seems like an upsell (though at least their storage
| is usually replaceable, and aftermarket offers better
| price/choice, though the spare small capacity device is a
| waste).
|
| In Apple's case, it simply seems like an upsell. They
| must have enough volume to sell lower spec, large storage
| capacity Macbook Airs at stores, or online.
| hughrr wrote:
| Most people buy low end machines from Apple. They just
| keep volume handy. Although recently when I went to Apple
| store they had no stock at all here in the UK of
| anything. Literally emptied out.
| davidy123 wrote:
| Yes, but how much does it cost Apple to put a larger
| volume in, compared to what they charge the consumer for
| that one feature? I have very often seen Apple users
| hampered by this, including losing data due to having to
| juggle external storage. Upsell.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Tell that to European car manufacturers, almost no two
| cars are identical. I've heard that some models have more
| possible variations than there are v6 addresses.
| jarcane wrote:
| The Framework's ports are all on user-selectable, replaceable
| expansion modules. If one of the USB-C ports dies, you just
| unplug it and install a new one.
| wffurr wrote:
| The expansion modules themselves are USB C dongles designed
| to fit flush in the case
|
| If the internal USB C ports get damaged, presumably the
| device can be opened and repaired.
| nrp wrote:
| It would be extremely difficult to damage the internal
| USB-C ports on the mainboard itself. The USB-C Expansion
| Cards are what cables would be plugged into and cycled
| repeatedly, and our Expansion Card bays also have
| mechanical retention features that mean the insertion of
| the card itself is always aligned to avoid wear or
| damage.
| jarcane wrote:
| They mention that several other such ports like the audio
| and power are easily replaceable so that seems a fair
| assumption. The modules are also track-mounted and appear
| to lock into place somehow, so it seems unlikely that the
| internal connection will suffer the same kind of torture
| an external port would.
| [deleted]
| ttraub wrote:
| What happens if the expansion port itself becomes damaged?
| Would you need to change out the motherboard?
| james_pm wrote:
| AKA square, flushmount dongles.
| Naracion wrote:
| What you're missing is that these ports are actually USB C
| dongles. If one of the _original_ USB C ports dies, it's
| dead. Ie the hot swap ports basically connect to USB C
| ports built into the machine. It's a clever UX hack (which
| I'm totally for), but it's not solving the technical issue
| here.
|
| For transparency I actually love the idea behind the
| Framework laptop, I've been hyped since January!
| lostlogin wrote:
| > At least Apple stick them on a daughterboard.
|
| This is the least Appley thing I've heard recently. Making
| everything as small as possible with every single trade off
| that entails is their style. I say that as a hardline Mac
| user.
| dmitryminkovsky wrote:
| I'm not advocating for any particular build paradigm but there
| are shops, at least in New York and here in Baltimore that will
| repair/replace soldered-on parts for you.
| raffraffraff wrote:
| This reminds me of the day I dropped my new HTC One M8 into
| water. I grabbed it out within a second. The screen was still
| on and seemed functional, but rather quickly it started
| behaving erratically. The little motor that handles vibrate was
| constantly running. The device was getting hot. I couldn't
| power it off. The battery couldn't be removed. In fact, the
| entire case was sealed shut so I couldn't even expose the
| internals to dry them out more quickly. I basically had to sit
| and watch as it buzzed away and finally died. I swore I would
| never again buy a phone that couldn't be opened up.
|
| My next phone was the Fairphone 2. I replaced the battery a few
| times over it's lifetime and upgraded the camera. I bought the
| Fairphone 3 as soon as it came out (and I'm still using it
| happily). My wife switched to the FP3 shortly afterwards. We
| both bought the camera upgrade and spare battery.
| Google234 wrote:
| New phones are water proof now which is something that
| modularity generally doesn't allow.
| y7 wrote:
| I think phones can be both waterproof and modular. Going by
| [1], waterproof gaskets usually come from either glue or
| silicone. Glue obviously inhibits modularity, but silicone
| gaskets work fine.
|
| 1: https://www.ifixit.com/News/30845/your-phone-is-never-
| waterp...
| xondono wrote:
| Yeah sure, but that will make your phone significantly
| bulkier
| sangnoir wrote:
| The Galaxy S5 is waterproof, has a rubber gasket over the
| charging port _and_ a removable battery but not
| "significantly bulkier" compared to all of the current
| crop of mid-range/flagship phones - it's actually lighter
| than the glass-backed ones
| neop1x wrote:
| I never had a need for water-proof phone. I am not diving
| or bathing with the phone...
| Idiot211 wrote:
| Sure, but the reason they're nice to have for that one
| time that an accident occurs, whether a drink is spilled
| or you drop it in the sink or whatever.
|
| It's a pleasant nice to have if it is waterproof.
| input_sh wrote:
| That's just splash damage, which doesn't really equal
| waterproofing. There are different IP ratings for the
| two. Splash damage resistance is significantly cheaper
| and you'll find plenty of models that don't claim to be
| waterproof, but are still splash resistant. In other
| words, IP52/IP53/IP54 instead of IP63/IP64:
| https://www.dsmt.com/resources/ip-rating-chart/
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| My Samsung Galaxy S5 is waterproof, yet the back case pops
| right off by using a fingernail. Replaceable battery, too.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| I think Fairphone goes too far towards maintainability at the
| expense of other aspects. I don't get a lot more value in
| being able to replace the camera in 10s compared to 20
| minutes.
| sydd wrote:
| Its great, but I really don't understand why they cannot ship
| outside like 2 countries (?). Its always such a let down to see
| a company in 2021 that doesn't offer worldwide shipping, and
| sells its products just in the usual 2-3 countries (USA,
| Canada, maybe UK).
|
| At least give some FAQ with reasons or ETA when you will be
| shipping outside the US
| heywherelogingo wrote:
| Have to manufacture different keyboard layouts for one. That
| layout in the pics looks unpleasant to my UK eyes.
| nrp wrote:
| We have an ISO layout for UK English and other languages
| tooled and in testing. There are an enormous number of
| hurdles to shipping in each new country, across currency,
| language, customs, fulfillment, support, certifications,
| compliance, taxes, duties, business registrations, and
| more. We're working through them as we go, but as a startup
| we had to focus and pick a couple of countries to launch in
| first (the US and Canada).
| Karsteski wrote:
| They are working on EU right now. I imagine it's quite
| difficult for a startup to get licensing and shipping
| logistics done for multiple countries, and since NA is their
| biggest and easiest to target market, that's usually where
| they start.
|
| I understand your frustration. I'm from the Caribbean, we get
| nothing, ever :`)
| cconcepts wrote:
| I hope you guys slay the market and are able to keep up with the
| demand that is coming at you.
|
| I hope this is the Tesla moment for the consumer electronics
| industry where the incumbents are forced, through the hubris yet
| popularity of an upstart, to start innovating again and doing
| what is good for humanity rather than peddling incrementally
| changed products each year that are designed to become obsolete
| within an ever-shortening timeframe because....it appears to be
| good for the bottom line.
|
| Good on you
| rchaud wrote:
| 'Tesla moment' is right. They put all-electric cars in the
| public's consciousness. And then they went into the luxury auto
| business of charging and arm and a leg for repairs and parts.
| drstewart wrote:
| The reality is that this will be a niche product that gets
| almost no mainstream adoption outside of a small tech bubble,
| like the Fairphone.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| I wish enterprise buyers or institutional buyers considered
| it.
|
| Make sense to buy a fleet of these since they can be pretty
| easily repaired/cannibalized for parts.
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| No, it very well could become a popular product.
|
| Repairability won't be enough to get it there. But whatever
| company culture forms around this repairability thing could
| lead them to design a killer feature that Apple and Microsoft
| would never think of.
|
| And repairability might be a moat for some feature like that.
|
| It's not inevitable, most new electronics companies don't hit
| it big. But don't write them off before they start!
|
| They're in the right place: they pulled together a group of
| contributors with a different way of thinking, a product is
| on the market, getting good reviews, and a cult following is
| behind them. That's exactly where new big ideas come from.
| Give them a chance to seek it out.
| drstewart wrote:
| I definitely support their mission and hope to see them do
| well. And you might be right that they form a culture or
| feature that proves to be game changing. However, on the
| surface, I don't believe modularity is something that the
| average consumer cares about enough to have this become
| mainstream just on that basis alone.
| goodpoint wrote:
| A "Tesla moment" might well represent adoption of an
| expensive gadget in a small tech bubble.
| d--b wrote:
| Well, I am not an Apple devotee, and I think that what you say
| is generally right. But Apple releasing M1 laptops kind of
| changed the game...
| Koshkin wrote:
| Well, I am not an Apple devotee, either; moreover, my
| impression has been that, unlike IBM or Microsoft or Sun,
| neither Apple itself nor any of its products have so far made
| any impact on my life or work whatsoever. I may well be
| wrong, but I am not even sure if anything was much different
| had Apple never existed in the first place.
| bhupy wrote:
| > I am not even sure if anything was much different had
| Apple never existed in the first place.
|
| https://cdn.redmondpie.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/01/phones...
|
| https://cdn.osxdaily.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2011/08/tablets-...
| seanalltogether wrote:
| Does the phone you carry in your pocket look more like a
| flip-phone, a blackberry, or an iphone?
| jarpschop wrote:
| You're certainly not an iOS developer.
| jensensbutton wrote:
| In what way? It is certainly another step forward in terms of
| battery life, but it's incremental and doesn't fundamentally
| change how people use laptops. Don't really think it changes
| the market either. People with Macs will upgrade eventually
| and people that don't use Macs now are unlikely to change
| because of it.
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| I think low compute is actually a pretty interesting niche.
| By throwing all that compute at people, Apple all but
| guarantees the quality of software (VSCode extensions, web
| sites, etc) will be garbage.
|
| I think the next major OS innovation will come from a company
| focused on architecture, design, and software efficiency over
| computing resources and device size.
| blamestross wrote:
| I use a sacrificial USBC extension cable for this situation. It
| isn't cheap to replace, but it is easier than the USBC hub or
| power brick I have may laptop plugged into.
| trixie_ wrote:
| I like giving people a choice whether they want to buy something
| repairable/configurable or not. Minimal government intervention.
| Let the market decide.
| nrp wrote:
| We are fans of proving there is a market for this by building
| and selling it ourselves, but there are categories where the
| start-up costs for new entrants are impossibly high and the
| incumbents are actively opposed to repairability. Even for
| notebooks, the capital required is non-trivial.
| xpe wrote:
| Yes, it is nice when people have many choices. History and
| economics show that markets left to their own devices often
| give fewer choices than smart combinations of (markets &
| oversight).
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| The PC clones of the 80s and 90s beg to differ.
| xpe wrote:
| Explain please? Beg to differ with what exactly?
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| $1400 for 16gb of ram and less power hungry cpu? I mean I like
| what you're doing here, but I might as well buy a Mac at that
| point.
| gbh444g wrote:
| Price for the Pro version? I'd buy so long as it comes with
| Ubuntu/Debian.
| mateuszf wrote:
| Just choose the DIY option
| [deleted]
| boltzmann_brain wrote:
| > Iris Xe Graphics
|
| but why
| pentae wrote:
| I really hope Dave2D does a review of this laptop to increase
| awareness about it. It's a great concept and they deserve success
| noeltock wrote:
| I thought this was for MacOS given the similar wallpapers on a
| bunch of the mockups.
| NileTheGreat wrote:
| Do you plan to offer replacement parts for the mechanical
| components?
|
| I would love to purchase an extra clamshell for aesthetic
| customizations, like laser engraving, spray coating, repainting,
| etc.
| nrp wrote:
| Yes, absolutely, and we're really looking forward to seeing the
| ways people take advantage of that!
| zapdrive wrote:
| Why such hostility towards accepting crypto as a payment option?
| I'm sure you know there are payment processors that convert the
| crypto to cash in the bank with minimal effort.
|
| Your company's statement that you won't accept crypto because it
| is "bad for environment" seems more political than
| operational/technical.
| caeril wrote:
| edit: Sorry, I missed that. Thanks.
| crollywood wrote:
| Windows is not mandatory at all? You can literally combine
| whatever you want in the laptop, including the preinstalled
| windows or not. Look under the DIY section
| 100011_100001 wrote:
| If you go to the DIY section you can choose to not get an OS.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Submitted this yesterday, didn't get much traction though.
|
| Gizmodo's review was mixed.
|
| https://gizmodo.com/i-wanted-to-love-framework-s-modular-lap...
| eplanit wrote:
| That review is indeed lukewarm, but lists not one specific
| gripe as to anything wrong or not working. It's really a
| worthless review.
| octos4murai wrote:
| I just read the review. The specific gripes they had are: (1)
| subpar battery life, (2) middling performance compared to
| others with the same CPU/RAM configuration, (3) loud fan
| noise akin to a gaming laptop, and (4) uncomfortably high
| temperatures on load.
| dnadler wrote:
| I'm pretty excited about this laptop, but that review does
| list some specific complaints. Here's a couple lines from the
| conclusion of the review:
|
| > The Framework laptop offers an awkward port selection to
| make way for its expansion slots, and it doesn't have the
| best battery life. It's also concerning that the computer
| runs so hot.
| culopatin wrote:
| This review sounds overly negative. I don't have much interest
| in either party but it mentions the laptop got to 106f and said
| "too hot to touch". Well, that's only 41c. If 41c was too hot
| to touch, some fevers would burn your skin.
|
| Then it mentions that the fn keys area was at 96f. That's body
| temp. A phone taken out of a pocket will probably be around the
| same temp and we are not complaining it's too hot.
|
| Little details like that make me think they had some kind of
| negative bias towards the device and it is not clear why.
|
| I am not defending the device since I haven't used it, but that
| review reads like "yeah whatever I guess I'll review it, but if
| it's not perfect I'll trash it".
|
| I guess we'll have to wait for these first batches to go out to
| see what problems are actually a nuisance
| junar wrote:
| The temperature of your hands is cooler than your core
| temperature: about 33 degrees Celsius (91 degrees
| Fahrenheit). Obviously comfort is subjective, but I think the
| difference is large enough for some to feel uncomfortable.
| Especially when comparing against other things in a room,
| which tend to be much cooler compared to the body.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Rob-A-B-
| Oostendorp/publ...
| decremental wrote:
| Is it legal to sell something that looks almost indistinguishable
| from a MacBook?
|
| These responses to anyone pointing out how similar the design is
| are so disingenuous. Very strange!
| kevinherron wrote:
| Huawei and others have been doing it for years. Google the
| "Matebook".
| Ancapistani wrote:
| I have a Matebook D, and I wouldn't say it's any more of a
| clone of a MacBook than any other manufacturer.
|
| Check out HP's current line up. They seem to come in two
| flavors: "MacBook clone" and "MacBook clone, but in black".
|
| https://www.hp.com/us-
| en/shop/slp/optane/2-in-1-laptops?jump...
| 8note wrote:
| I don't think I could distinguish it from any laptop.
|
| Do MacBooks come with a windows key?
| dylan604 wrote:
| Um, this thing has actual buttons, so clearly not a rip off of
| a MacBook. It also has what appears to be a dedicated power
| button. Also, this thing is user repairable. That's clearly not
| copied from Apple.
|
| Edit: so not a dedicated power button, but an integrated finger
| print reader. uh-oh, case is getting weaker ;-)
| ben-schaaf wrote:
| > To make device security convenient, we also built a Windows
| Hello-compatible fingerprint reader into the power button
|
| It's both a dedicated power button and a finger print reader.
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| So, uh, like a MacBook?
|
| (For the record I'm not bothered by the similarities; I
| honestly think that if you go minimalist with your design
| language you kind of converge on this look. I would offer
| the gentlest of criticisms, though, in the way the up and
| down arrow keys are half-height but the left and right are
| full. That's another trend Apple started and it is bad.
| Ironically, Apple's current laptops are moving away from it
| again!)
| dylan604 wrote:
| Actually, my 2019 Macbook has all 4 arrow keys half-
| height, but the left/right keys are bottom aligned with
| the down key rather than .keys { vertical-align: center;
| } I try my best to never use those keys.
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| That was the first one that switched back, I think.
| Personally, I prefer that design to the full-height
| left/right and half-height up/down keys, because it's
| just easier for me to find the right arrows that way.
| (I'd prefer full height on all of them, but I recognize a
| laptop keyboard is space-constrained, at least if it's
| 13" or below. The 16" MBP has less excuse.)
| unpixer wrote:
| I don't really care so much about half-height left and
| right keys versus full-height ones, but I've discovered
| that what I really hate is when half-height PgUp and PgDn
| keys are on either side of a half-height Up arrow key.
| This means I constantly hit PgUp/PgDn with my pinkie when
| reaching for Left or Right (and ultimately on my current
| machine I had to override this with a keyboard remap).
| dylan604 wrote:
| It can't be a dedicated anything if you just used the word
| "both" implying it does 2 things.
| wayneftw wrote:
| There's not a whole lot of trade dress to claim on aluminum
| rectangles. So that just leaves the logo.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Apple nailed the "generic laptop" design with MacBook but they
| also has their own design language like the iconic fillets. I
| guess that's how they draw a line and I guess that's enough for
| each sides.
| bschwindHN wrote:
| > No inverted T arrow keys
|
| That was a showstopper for me for the older macbooks and still a
| showstopper now. It was so bad that Apple walked it back on the
| newer designs (though their newer magic keyboards still have this
| problem for some reason...)
| rplnt wrote:
| I've been using MB Pro for almost 4 years now and I still miss-
| click those stupid half-keys. It's a no go for me too.
| grae_QED wrote:
| I wish they had a transparent or even translucent option for the
| case. I think that that level of honesty, where a company can
| show off the internals of a product with confidence, is very much
| missed.
|
| Plus, considering the complexity of the hardware, it would look
| amazing with a transparent case. It'd be almost like swiss watch.
| mromanuk wrote:
| OMG, when the first picture on the website appeared, I thought it
| was a Mac. Isn't it too look alike? I mean maybe they get sued or
| something, which would be sad, because I love the design and the
| idea
| [deleted]
| techrat wrote:
| 3:2 screen, windows key, fingerprint reader, non touchbar row,
| no gap in keyboard above the left and right arrow keys, much
| wider filet below the touchpad, no "Macbook" text below the
| screen, no speaker grilles to the left and right of the
| keyboard, enter key and backslash key appear 'merged' (common
| for iso supporting layouts)...
|
| ...and you thought it was a Mac?
| xzlzx wrote:
| It clearly looks like a mac. Let's get real.
| [deleted]
| throwawaycuriou wrote:
| Petty but I'd like the ability to replace that Windows meta key.
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| Louis Rossman looking at screenshots and speculating:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMZp8ErTTuk
| nrp wrote:
| We've since announced that we're making full schematics and
| assembly drawings available to independent repair shops who get
| Framework hardware in. We actually chatted with Louis a couple
| of times to get his feedback on the plan.
| nrp wrote:
| Framework Founder here! I am happy to answer any questions on the
| product.
| baybal2 wrote:
| What is the webcam module used? What's the cost for them?
| nrp wrote:
| We have a deep dive on the webcam here:
| https://frame.work/blog/1080p-webcam
| rosege wrote:
| How do you feel about competition from the M1 processor? I can
| see when its more widely available a fair amount of ppl might
| want to move from x64.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| How is Linux support?
| nrp wrote:
| Pretty good already. I mentioned in another comment that
| Fedora 34 respins as of this week have full support for the
| Framework Laptop built in. On Ubuntu 21.04, everything works
| out of the box except the fingerprint reader, which requires
| a newer libfprint.
| throwawaycuriou wrote:
| How's Manjaro/Arch support looking?
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Awesome, are you planning to participate in LVFS[1]? I see
| there's an entry for Framework, but no firmware uploaded
| yet.
|
| [1] https://fwupd.org/
| psankar wrote:
| Please make full sized keys for up and down arrows, with the
| arrow keys in an inverted T shape. Group function keys in
| groups of four.
|
| Also provide Mac style keyboard if possible with a command key.
| I use mac keyboard because it is safer on wrists and thumbs.
|
| All the best.
| occoder wrote:
| Yes please! I second all these requests!
|
| Full-size arrow keys: by adding another column of keys to the
| right side of the keyboard. That way you get dedicated
| Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys as well. See [1].
|
| Grouping function keys: also put a wider gap between Esc and
| F1, F12 and Delete.
|
| Mac keyboard: that'd be nice! How compatible are they to
| hackintosh BTW?
|
| [1] https://img.business.com/o/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYnVzaW5lc3NuZX
| dzZ...
| culopatin wrote:
| Hackintosh on this thing would be the ultimate hackbook.
| Same display ratio (not sure if resolution is exactly the
| same though), pretty much same form factor, and you can
| upgrade the ram. While they support intel at least.
| torgian wrote:
| This looks like a very cool laptop! What material is it made
| out of?
|
| Do you have information about how the pci-e lanes are routed?
| I'm wondering because it would be interesting to see how EGPUs
| perform with this laptop.
|
| Do you have plans to release different types of key caps ( such
| as U-shaped keys? )
| nrp wrote:
| The housing is made of 50% post-consumer recycled aluminum.
| The plastic parts are on average 30% post-consumer recycled
| plastic.
|
| There's some more information about the PCI-e lanes here:
| https://community.frame.work/t/iommu-groups-for-
| thunderbolt-...
|
| We don't currently have plans for other keycap geometries,
| but we do have a range of different languages in progress.
| torgian wrote:
| Thank you. Good to see some of the parts are recycled
| components too.
| creese wrote:
| Can the USB4 expansion card transmit data at 40Gbps? Do you
| have any plans for Thunderbolt 4?
| nrp wrote:
| The USB-C Expansion Card is purely passive passthrough
| designed to minimize signal loss and voltage drop, so it
| depends on the capabilities of the specific mainboard. The
| current mainboard does support 40Gbps through that card. For
| Thunderbolt, we can't state anything yet until we complete
| certifications.
| akavel wrote:
| Is there a chance you might produce a fanless configuration?
| Since I first bought a fanless machine, I'm a total sucker for
| them and just stopped considering fanless computers for home
| use anymore (100% confirmed by my later buying choices). I'm
| happy to notice that the fan seems to be on the mainboard in
| your DIY Build video, so at a first glance it looks not
| impossible; but I also understand there's more to that, in
| overall heat transport and airways design/considerations,
| that's why I'm still asking and really interested to know the
| answer!
| nrp wrote:
| You can technically unplug the fan, but with a U-series CPU,
| it will just be throttling most of the time. A lower-
| power/lower-performance mainboard without a fan is something
| we could technically do in the future if there is customer
| demand for it.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| What support like outside the US?
| nrp wrote:
| We're currently shipping to the US and Canada. We're working
| on adding additional countries, and making sure we can offer
| proper support in addition to being able to ship the product
| there.
| silon42 wrote:
| Yes, for Europe you need keyboard with ISO layout (upside
| down Enter + extra key).
| nrp wrote:
| Definitely. We have ISO keyboards tooled up and are
| finalizing the artwork for different languages for it.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| Any chance for a keyboard with a trackpoint and its 3 buttons
| in the future?
|
| A lot of us, addicted to the trackpoint, are not liking some
| directions Lenovo have taken in the recent years.
| michalf6 wrote:
| +1, trackpoint is keeping me vendor-locked to Lenovo. It's
| just too useful for text editing to pass up. And it must have
| 3 buttons, middle button is essential for scrolling.
| eikenberry wrote:
| +1, please consider offering this. A track point and 3 real
| buttons are so much nicer than a trackpad. At least to some
| of us. ThinkPads success seems to indicate there are a lot of
| us.
| trulyme wrote:
| As a counterpoint, I love ThinkPads but never understood
| the appeal of the track point. I don't mind it being there
| of course, but it is not a reason to prefer one laptop to
| another, and definitely not the reason I like ThinkPads.
| kk6mrp wrote:
| I normally don't ever use it however I discovered in some
| areas I work it is necessary. Attempting to use the
| trackpad results in the cursor jumping around the screen
| and the only thing I can figure is that there is
| electrical interference messing with it.
| nrp wrote:
| A touchpad with buttons is something that we have explored,
| and is in theory a replacement module we can create.
| Inserting a track point would be much more challenging from
| a cost and engineering feasibility standpoint. We may have
| underestimated the level of interest around track point...
| VeloMoto wrote:
| As someone with experience looking into touchpad hardware
| are there any options that compare to the features and
| functionality of a mac?
|
| As a predominantly windows based user every time I use a
| mac touchpad I'm blown away the fluidity and features
| like the psuedo-click. I've been eagerly awaiting windows
| compatible hardware of the same quality and
| functionality.
| silon42 wrote:
| 2 buttons + trackpoint in the middle would be a viable
| alternative IMO.
| ghosty141 wrote:
| Trackpoints are still very beloved in the thinkpad-scene
| and among (for the lack of a better word) "nerds".
|
| This community is not represented on youtube etc. so I
| guess that's why we don't hear about the interest in
| trackspoints that much.
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| At the moment, there are exactly two things stopping me
| from jumping on this:
|
| 1) 3 buttons at the top of the mousepad, ideally
| contoured to be comfortable and easily differentiated.
|
| 2) A 3+ year warranty, rather than just 1 year.
|
| The screen and the high-end internals are really grabbing
| me.
| elric wrote:
| Their warranty is utterly ridiculous. Even the EU
| mandates 2+years for all consumer electronics.
|
| I'm not expecting Next Business On Site warranty from a
| new company (though that would be nice...), but an option
| for at least 3 years is the very minimum for me.
| nrp wrote:
| We'll certainly be complying with EU warranty
| requirements before we start selling there.
|
| For longer warranties in general, that is something we
| would like to do. We're giving ourselves some time in
| market in order to price it appropriately, but since our
| product is easy to repair, we believe our costs for
| supporting warranties will be lower than it would be for
| less repairable products.
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| > We're giving ourselves some time in market in order to
| price it appropriately, but since our product is easy to
| repair, we believe our costs for supporting warranties
| will be lower than it would be for less repairable
| products.
|
| Absolutely. In particular, I wouldn't expect an "at-home
| service" warranty this early in the life of your company,
| for such an easily repaired laptop. Rather, I'd expect a
| warranty in which you cross-ship a replacement part,
| provide instructions to replace it, and say "just put the
| old part back in the box we shipped you the replacement
| in and drop it in your outgoing mail".
| Nrbelex wrote:
| Joining the chorus of those asking for a trackpoint
| equivalent and a larger gamut screen option. Love what
| you're doing and would buy today if those two issues were
| addressed.
| JoshTriplett wrote:
| With or without a trackpoint, I'd _really_ love to have
| buttons above the trackpad. I can 't stand tap-to-click, and
| I feel much more comfortable on a laptop with buttons.
|
| Everything else about this laptop looks _great_ , especially
| the 3:2 screen aspect ratio.
| mike_ivanov wrote:
| Full size arrow keys, please.
| varjag wrote:
| Just wanted to say: great job! Am generally skeptical of
| modular consumer designs but this looks very tidy. As another
| hardware developer really appreciate the thought that went into
| this.
| 0x0EB0DA10 wrote:
| Really love this product and the concept! I'd love if you guys
| would build a touchscreen tablet too, although at this point
| I'm probably asking too much. The tablet landscape ain't pretty
| with much of its electronic component were destined to landfill
| instead of being reusable like this.
| nrp wrote:
| A 13.5" laptop is our first, but certainly not last category.
| Just about every category in consumer electronics is missing
| a product like this, with rare exceptions like desktop PCs
| and what Fairphone is doing in the smartphone space.
| justicezyx wrote:
| How does this compare to Mac nook m1 and air?
| ben-schaaf wrote:
| If you want to repair or change anything on an M1 macbook
| you'd need to desolder components off the motherboard and
| then also own a spare M1 macbook for donor parts because you
| can't buy them separately.
| rvz wrote:
| > If you want to repair or change anything on an M1 macbook
| you'd need to desolder components off the motherboard
|
| Exactly. Good luck to anyone upgrading the RAM or storage
| on that thing yourself. It is beyond risky to do this [0]
| (The article title is also misleading and ignores the
| extreme risk).
|
| I don't think that [0] is remotely an option to the end
| user.
|
| [0] https://9to5mac.com/2021/04/06/m1-mac-ssd-and-ram-
| upgrade/
| peterburkimsher wrote:
| Which battery controller are you using? I've had trouble
| replacing the cells on my MacBook Pro 2014 Retina 15" A1398.
|
| If it's a TI BQ20Z451, will you keep the default unseal code?
| nrp wrote:
| It's a TI BQ40Z50-R3. I would strongly recommend doing a pack
| replacement rather than cell replacements for a Framework
| Laptop Battery. We'll be making replacement battery packs
| readily available at a price point that hopefully makes it
| the clear choice.
| ant6n wrote:
| The question is whether it will be possible to get a
| replacement battery five years from now (at a reasonable
| price point).
| peterburkimsher wrote:
| Exactly. Apple even have third-party batteries in their
| supply chain (installed by an AASP), the printing of the
| warnings on the cells and the PCB date code look very
| suspiciously shanzhai. Yet Apple Support were able to
| confirm that the order number is real and the part came
| from them. They charged me $600 for it too. It'd better
| be reliable, unlike the $100 third-party one that idles
| at 12V, and a voltage spike when waking from sleep killed
| my logic board.
| nrp wrote:
| What helps us keep replacement parts available is that
| we'll be continuing to build new Framework Laptops with
| form-factor-compatible modules for the foreseeable
| future. That means we will still be manufacturing new
| batteries compatible with original Framework Laptops for
| many years.
| viraptor wrote:
| We're almost all thinking it, so... are you trying to get sued
| by Apple, or what's the reason for 1:1 copy of the design?
|
| Edit: To be clear, I'm not just trying to dunk on the idea.
| That would be the reason for me not to buy one if it looks like
| the vendor can fold because Apple dragged them to court.
| mastrsushi wrote:
| With all the other OEMs out there that have used the same
| exhausted design, do you really think Apple is going to go
| after some start up?
|
| It has chiclet keys and a black bezel sure, but nothing about
| this screams carbon copied MacBook anymore than contemporary
| ultra book.
|
| We're pretty much in the modern equivalent of beige boxes and
| CRTs. Consumer computers aren't very interesting to begin
| with. This one is a laptop that lets you swap out parts,
| that's pretty unique.
| viraptor wrote:
| Maybe Apple will go after some startup maybe not. As a
| customer why would I risk not having access to replacement
| parts because they can't be produced/sold anymore? Having a
| laptop that looks like Apple design is not a great trade-
| off here.
| rsynnott wrote:
| I mean, I think that ship has sailed... Here's a Samsung
| definitely-not-MBP: https://www.samsung.com/hk_en/pc/notebook
| -7-np730xbe-k02/NP7...
|
| And of course there's the suspiciously named Huawei Matebook
| Pro.
|
| If Apple was inclined to sue people for making MBP
| lookalikes, it has far more interesting targets to go after.
| nrp wrote:
| The lead-in photo on that email happens to be at an angle
| that doesn't show off the distinguishing features and
| functionality. On our website you can readily see just how
| different it is from an Apple product:
| https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition
| wmf wrote:
| So many laptops are copying Apple that it's no longer
| notable.
| viraptor wrote:
| Copying elements - sure. But I've never seen one before
| where I though - this is an Apple product.
| techrat wrote:
| If you were confused by the Framework Laptop and thought
| it was an Apple Product...
|
| and I mean this sincerely...
|
| Get your eyes checked.
| everyone wrote:
| Also kind of sends the wrong message. Aping the masters of
| planned obsolescence and unrepairability. You'd think they
| wouldn't want an even passing resemblance to anything apple.
| luke2m wrote:
| Almost every thin and light laptop on the market these days
| looks like a macbook replica. And iirc, macs have a 16:10
| display.
| nightski wrote:
| It's such a tired design. I think the goals of this project
| is fantastic but man the macbook is getting ugly. They
| really need a refresh. It feels like it has been over a
| decade now...
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| Serious question: what would you expect/want in a design
| refresh? I'm speaking just of the industrial design, not
| the number and kinds of ports and such.
|
| I'm curious because while I've also thought "yeah, these
| are increasingly overdue for an updated look," it's hard
| in practice for me to think of changes that I'd really
| _want._ I 'm typing this on an M1 MacBook Air, and...I'm
| not saying it's somehow reached the apex of perfection,
| but other than a wider range of colors there's nothing
| that immediately comes to mind as an answer to "I wish
| the Air had [thing]". Smaller bezels? Maybe, but it's not
| like they're a glaring huge problem. A different shape?
| Maybe, but again, this is just such a _nice_ one. They
| could bring in more of the current iPad /iPhone design
| language, especially on the MacBook Pro rather than the
| Air, I guess -- which is widely expected for the next
| refresh, so you'll probably get your wish in that regard.
| nightski wrote:
| Honestly just start with colors and/or black like say the
| Razer Blade, iPhone, or iMac.
|
| I have a G14 with anime matrix led display and it's
| pretty slick looking (so cool how it lights up) [1]. I
| understand it's not as minimalist as a macbook but I've
| been blown away by the amount of comments I get on it's
| looks.
|
| It completely goes against Apple's design DNA but maybe
| it's just the super minimalist approach itself I am
| finding tired. I like spice & variety.
|
| [1] https://dlcdnimgs.asus.com/websites/global/Products/x
| ccq31kw...
| chipotle_coyote wrote:
| That's fair. I mostly like a minimalist approach, but I'd
| like them to find space for just a little more whimsy
| than they've had in the last decade -- and I'd definitely
| like to see the laptops in more colors than "silver gray"
| and "kinda darker silver gray".
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| If the M1 iMac is an indication of things to come, you
| might get your wish.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| could be intentional as a dig to apple... they can make a
| macbook clone that _is_ repairable and configurable; apple 's
| making it difficult intentionally
| itwy wrote:
| How compatible is it with Linux? Was it tested with specific
| distros?
| nrp wrote:
| We've been testing with Ubuntu 21.04 and Fedora 34. We'll be
| releasing guides around both of these soon and other distros
| in the future. On Fedora 34 respins that are going live soon,
| everything works out of the box, including the fingerprint
| reader. On Ubuntu 21.04, everything works out of the box
| except the fingerprint reader, which requires manually
| upgrading libfprint.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| What OS/distro does the laptop ship with?
| nrp wrote:
| The pre-built versions ship with Windows 10. The
| Framework Laptop DIY Edition ships without an OS
| installed.
| vzaliva wrote:
| Does this implies I will need to pay Microsoft tax even
| if I am planning to run Linux?
| nrp wrote:
| The Framework Laptop DIY Edition ships without an OS
| license of any kind. If you want a pre-built Framework
| Laptop, that does include the cost of a Windows license.
| The DIY Edition is super easy to set up though: https://g
| uides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition...
| dorfsmay wrote:
| Thanks.
| input_sh wrote:
| Selecting Windows adds +$139/+$199 to the price (for
| Home/Pro versions), so no.
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| What about Arch, Gentoo, Nix/Guix and *BSDs?
| nrp wrote:
| We haven't tested those internally, but we hope to see
| folks in the community try them! We are absolutely happy
| to help anyone who gets stuck, and as we see which
| distros are popular we can plan out more official support
| for them.
| massysett wrote:
| Are you considering shipping your own distribution (for
| instance a modified Ubuntu or Fedora or whatever) and
| guaranteeing compatibility for that, or do you plan only to
| issue guides for other distributions?
| jeswin wrote:
| Taking focus away from the central vision will jeopardize
| the company - shipping and maintaining a distro is
| laborious; so please don't do this.
|
| If at all, a script to automatically download/compile
| deps will be more than adequate (not necessary).
| nrp wrote:
| Yes, we would very much like to rely on the great distros
| that are already out there for now, working with them as
| needed to ensure compatibility (which we have already
| done with a handful).
| aftergibson wrote:
| Yeah the fact that Linux supporter isn't listed makes me
| pause on making a purchase, especially when it's from a new
| laptop maker.
|
| Hopefully on release we can get some confirmations about how
| well it runs.
| nrp wrote:
| We'll be posting up step by step installation and use
| guides for a few popular distros soon. We sent pre-release
| hardware out to developers and maintainers at a few distros
| and have been working with them on this. In the meantime,
| we also have a Linux sub-forum in our community where we
| expect folks will post their experiences with more obscure
| distros: https://community.frame.work/c/diy-
| edition/linux/91
| aftergibson wrote:
| Awesome, that'll go a long way! Thanks.
| pabs3 wrote:
| The Debian wiki has a section for hardware-specific
| install guides, that would be a good place to put one for
| installing Debian on the Framework Laptop:
|
| https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn
| Frameworkscr wrote:
| Very humbly from a full time linux user of 16 years- Id
| recommend you avoid their crowd- they are entitled and
| toxic. (as perhaps urself have noticed in this threas)
|
| https://mobile.twitter.com/bgolus/status/1080213166116597
| 760...
|
| (personally id love to see linux supported well haha, bjt
| seriously good luck)
|
| I wish you guys to succeed.
| craftkiller wrote:
| 1. Are you able to limit the min/max charge of the battery to
| reduce wear / increase longevity? For example, if I'm usually
| plugged into an outlet then I would want to limit my max charge
| to 80% or 60% since high charge levels degrade the battery
| faster, but I wouldn't want to disconnect the charger because
| then I'd be pointlessly burning through battery cycles.
|
| 2. Coreboot: whats the status on that?
|
| 3. When I violently yank my laptop in any random direction, the
| military-grade type-c cables that I forgot were plugged into
| all 4 ports on my framework laptop will naturally put
| significant strain on the type-c ports on the modules. My
| question is: how possible is it that I manage to also damage
| the interior usb type-c port on the laptop body?
|
| 4. What run-time loaded closed source binary blobs are needed
| for the full use of the hardware in one of your pre-built
| configurations?
|
| 5. Repair shops can get access to your schematics after signing
| some forms (presumably involving a NDA). Can I sign the same
| forms to get the same access?
|
| 6. If you cease to exist, everyone essentially just bought a
| bunch of proprietary dongles that are unlikely to be reused due
| to their size/shape. This would lead to the exact opposite of
| your goals by directly causing e-waste. Why won't that happen?
|
| 7. Is the fan, in any way, a standard form factor / are there
| models from competing brands that would work in that spot? I
| don't know how loud your fan is, but if I was unhappy with the
| noise from the fan it would be good to know that I could
| consider other competing models.
| nrp wrote:
| 1) We don't have this yet, but it is on our firmware roadmap.
|
| 2) Also on our (long term) firmware roadmap!
|
| 3) It would be extremely difficult to damage the internal
| USB-C ports from force on the USB-C Expansion Card. You'd
| destroy the USB-C Expansion Card first, which is inexpensive
| to replace.
|
| 4) This is a great question, and actually on our list of blog
| posts we want to write. I don't have the answer off-hand, but
| it shouldn't be different than other recent Intel-based
| notebooks.
|
| 5) Currently we're limited to offering it to repair shops,
| but we're looking at ways to expand that in the future.
|
| 6) For the Expansion Cards, since they are standard USB-C
| devices, you can plug them into other USB-C hosts (though as
| you note, they are somewhat oddly shaped for that). We've
| also released open source CAD and documentation for people to
| develop their own Expansion Cards.
|
| 7) The heatsink and fan is custom to the system by form
| factor necessity.
| craftkiller wrote:
| Thanks! I'm particularly excited about #3 since I am a
| forgetful clutz, so having a sacrificial layer that ensures
| the ports attached to the mainboard stay safe is going to
| be great peace of mind.
| bscphil wrote:
| From what I can find, the documentation on the screen just says
| it covers 100% of the sRGB gamut. That's nice, but do you have
| an example of a calibration profile that shows the full gamut
| coverage? It would be nice to compare it to Adobe RGB and P3
| gamuts. Is the screen HDR or 10 bit input capable?
| lstamour wrote:
| Not affiliated with Framework Laptop, but I'll reply anyway.
|
| It's been my experience that when only sRGB is mentioned,
| only sRGB is supported. Adobe RGB is relatively rare these
| days, and any amount of P3 or HDR support is common only in
| higher end laptops with either very bright backlights or
| OLED. You might be interested in a new standard, DisplayHDR,
| which commonly focuses on how bright and technically accurate
| a screen can be. At this point there are often trade offs
| between screen technologies, but OLED tends to produce the
| "nicest" picture. https://displayhdr.org/
|
| Also, as a correction, as long as you're not performing
| colour grading on footage, you don't need 10-bit input or
| output for HDR. It helps, obviously, but technically you can
| use dithered 8-bit RGB over HDMI 2.0 at 60 fps and still view
| HDR content with no perceptible difference between the 8-bit
| and 10-bit or 12-bit formats. For example:
| https://2020.smpte.org/home/session/325093/perceptually-
| dith...
|
| That said, especially when using a computer, I really like
| the way scrolling feels at 120 fps, so I encourage looking
| for HDMI 2.1 outputs and inputs for that reason alone. Don't
| forget you'll likely also need a new HDMI cable. As an aside,
| I've tried adapters from DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 and they
| are so far rather unreliable and prone to overheat.
| bscphil wrote:
| > It's been my experience that when only sRGB is mentioned,
| only sRGB is supported.
|
| I suspect this as well, especially at the price point the
| Framework laptop is being offered, but that's why I'm
| asking. I feel that manufacturers providing a approximate
| gamut coverage plot would be an enormous improvement to the
| status quo.
|
| > any amount of P3 or HDR support is common only in higher
| end laptops
|
| I disagree with this point. The MacBook Air (at $1000) is
| advertised to have P3 coverage. That's the exact same price
| (for a shipped laptop) as Framework. It also has HDR
| support.
|
| > Also, as a correction, as long as you're not performing
| colour grading on footage, you don't need 10-bit input or
| output for HDR.
|
| I'm aware - that's why I asked about HDR and 10 bit support
| separately. Worth mentioning that a bunch of cheap panels
| only really support 6 bits which then gets dithered,
| though. You're right that 8 bits in probably sufficient at
| the 400 nits brightness of the Framework screen.
| lstamour wrote:
| > The MacBook Air (at $1000) is advertised to have P3
| coverage. That's the exact same price (for a shipped
| laptop) as Framework. It also has HDR support.
|
| True. But then it only outputs to one extra display, runs
| a chip Apple made from last year and hasn't yet updated,
| and the rest of the industry isn't Apple and can't find a
| way to sell the same product in an iPad, mid-range
| desktop, entry-level all-in-one, entry-level laptop and
| entry-level pro laptop while manufacturing in quantity
| during the middle of a chip shortage. I mean, some things
| only Apple can do.
|
| The closest comparison I can make to the Air in terms of
| price might be the Samsung Galaxy Book Pro for $999 which
| has an AMOLED screen, but that's presumably because
| Samsung makes their own displays and wants a laptop to
| show them off. Everything else about the laptop is low-
| to mid-range and you need to pay extra for 16GB of RAM.
| Frankly most laptops with fancy displays end up being
| like the Dell XPS 9710, they ship with dedicated graphics
| cores and cost upwards of 2-3 grand. The exceptions with
| nice displays stand out as exceptions. To date,
| Microsoft's entire Surface line has yet to go P3 HDR
| (iirc) with the exception of the Surface Studio, their
| giant (and outdated) all-in-one PC.
|
| Frankly, if a third-party repairable MacBook Air with
| Apple silicon existed, I'd be over the moon, and more so
| if Apple came out with an OLED display, but in a way even
| OLED panels aren't very repairable as if you get the
| tiniest of scratches the entire panel might need to be
| tossed, etc. And you might consider repairability from
| the perspective of "how inexpensive is it to replace?" If
| so, you wouldn't want a part that's only affordable if
| you buy in bulk, you'd want a screen that's common and
| easy to get instead. Probably 16:9 aspect ratio too.
| So... a repairable laptop might not be the laptop to get
| if you also want the best of everything... for now, at
| least...
| nrp wrote:
| We use a BOE NE135FBM-N41 panel, which you may be able to
| find some profiles on from other notebooks. We haven't gotten
| a chance to generate profiles just yet ourselves.
| bscphil wrote:
| Thanks for the response!
|
| I did find a review of one laptop that used this panel, and
| it looks like it's a designed-to-standard 8 bit panel with
| pretty much no coverage beyond sRGB, similar to the panels
| Apple was putting in MBPs around 2014 or 2015. Support for
| HDR (e.g. PQ) shouldn't be expected.
|
| For what it's worth I'd be very interested in future
| upgrades for the screen quality. I'm fine with the current
| density (~200 DPI or so), although I know some have
| requested 4K screens. The real selling point would be a 10
| bit panel with ST.2084 HDR support and full coverage for
| the P3 gamut. Something in line with base model laptops
| from Apple. (Obviously, such an upgrade would carry an
| understandable price premium.)
| jokoon wrote:
| How long are you planning to support spare parts?
| Volrath89 wrote:
| Please please launch this in non-US countries as well
| nrp wrote:
| We're currently in Canada too, and we plan to start adding
| more countries later this year.
| Lorin wrote:
| How about jobs? Interested in the senior frontend role, are you
| open to Canadian candidates? Do we mention HN in the cover
| letter? :)
| nrp wrote:
| Yes! We're hiring across a bunch of roles in development,
| marketing, operations, and more: https://jobs.frame.work
|
| We don't currently have anyone on the team in Canada, but we
| are definitely open to it for the right candidate. Please do
| mention HN so we know where people are coming from!
| emacsen wrote:
| From the web site, the selling point seems to be around this
| being a "right to repair" laptop.
|
| What's a bit unclear to me is that it seems the Framework
| Laptop is not be under an Open Source license, unlike the
| Pinebook Pro, the Librem 14 or the MNT Reform- the MNT being
| the most "user serviceable" as well as most repairable.
|
| Is your laptop fully open source, or if not, what makes it
| special or different from these other products?
| matt_heimer wrote:
| I'm guessing you haven't worked on many laptops. They aren't
| meant to be repaired easily in many cases. Want to upgrade
| the RAM, you need to upgrade both sticks. One is on the
| bottom side of the motherboard that requires 16 screws be
| removed and a pry tool to get the bottom case off. The second
| stick is under the keyboard that requires multiple levels of
| plastic pieces to be pried off and disconnecting the keyboard
| cable which can barely be reached. Want to swap the battery?
| That's 16 screws and enough force to break the adhesion that
| you are bending the case. Plus the system will complain about
| the battery if you buy it from the wrong vendor.
|
| I like open source. I CARE that I have to trash a thousand
| dollar laptop because I can't source a replacement keyboard
| when the "S" popped off.
|
| All examples I gave are real life examples which I've
| encountered.
| ohthehugemanate wrote:
| sure, but the examples he gave are all designed to be easy
| to service AFAIK. I only have personal experience with a
| Pinebook, but it is fantastic. Just one bottom panel for
| most access, and one keyboard to remove for the rest. It is
| extremely hacker friendly.
|
| But it's not a powerhouse CPU like this. A rock64 is no
| competition for a current generation Intel I5/7 AFAIK.
| fmx wrote:
| > I can't source a replacement keyboard when the "S" popped
| off.
|
| > All examples I gave are real life examples which I've
| encountered.
|
| Real life for me, too. The S key on my laptop no longer
| works. I took apart the keyboard to clean it one day, put
| everything back together, it all worked, except one key -
| S. Is there something about that specific key or is this
| just a weird coincidence?
| koyote wrote:
| So this would put the Framework laptop into the same
| category as a Thinkpad?
|
| My old (8 years) Thinkpad has had: a new battery, a new
| keyboard (orange juice!), a new screen (upgrade!), new RAM,
| new HDD and a new charging plug.
|
| All of the above were very simple with just a couple of
| screws to get the back cover off. No adhesive or force
| needed. Even the screen simply clipped off. The manual also
| comes with instructions on how to dismantle the laptop for
| repairs.
|
| I sourced the OEM parts from eBay.
|
| The only thing I was not able to change was the Wifi card.
| Apparently it's hard-locked to a specific model in the bios
| firmware, which I find a bit odd.
| nrp wrote:
| It actually would put us in a similar category to
| Thinkpads from the 2000's and early 2010's, but with
| modern hardware, a thin and light form factor, an
| upgradeable mainboard, and customizable ports with
| Expansion Cards!
| koyote wrote:
| Fair point, my newer (late 2010s) Thinkpad has soldered
| RAM which is a step in the wrong direction, so this is
| definitely an interesting product.
| vbernat wrote:
| LPDDR4 is always soldered. There are Thinkpad with DDR4
| if you prefer. They are usually heavier, thicker and/or
| more expensive (pick two). This includes the X1 Extreme
| Gen2 or the T14.
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| I just love hearing customizable ports. I was starting to
| think we (the tinkerers) lost war.
| emacsen wrote:
| I've noticed that you said you're here to answer all
| questions, but then you've been selectively not answering
| a lot of questions, like mine, and others who ask
| pointed, specific questions rather than mostly fluff.
|
| I buy lots of "gadgets"- a Pinephone, LibreM phone, a
| PiTop, 2 MNT Reform laptops, several OLPC XO-1 laptops-
| and that's just my current collection (rather than my
| older collection of even more obscure hardware of the
| past), but you're not offering much in terms of either
| being interesting from a social good perspective, nor
| from a purely practical perspective ala my Dell XPS13 and
| System 76 Lemur.
|
| I wish you luck, but based just on your HN interactions,
| you're occupying a market niche that doesn't really
| interest me- that of people who care a _little_ bit about
| self-actualization and repair, but not a lot.
| Frameworkscr wrote:
| Perhaps because the long term prqfmatism js that they
| build a viable business first.
|
| Thr problem with oss is its fanatics.
|
| (not associated, fake username)
| numpad0 wrote:
| > Want to upgrade the RAM, you need to upgrade both sticks.
|
| No. Single channel configuration is slower, unnoticeably on
| laptops, that's it.
|
| > One is on the bottom side of the motherboard that
| requires 16 screws be removed and a pry tool to get the
| bottom case off.
|
| Wrong choice of laptop brand.
|
| > The second stick is under the keyboard that requires
| multiple levels of plastic pieces to be pried off and
| disconnecting the keyboard cable which can barely be
| reached. Want to swap the battery? That's 16 screws and
| enough force to break the adhesion that you are bending the
| case. Plus the system will complain about the battery
|
| Again, wrong choice of laptop brand. Panasonic? Theirs are
| good as long as you only repair and don't fiddle with it.
| solarengineer wrote:
| For me, "open source" with respect to hardware would imply
| getting the PCB layouts and other such info that would enable
| me to modify the electronics and/or produce my own - like a
| software "fork".
|
| The "right to repair" tells me that I would be able to get
| replacement parts from 3rd party suppliers. Once upon a time,
| Television units also came with the circuit diagrams that
| helped third-party repair shops troubleshoot and fix TV
| issues. I am not sure if such circuit diagrams would help
| with the kind of wave-soldered multi-layered circuit boards
| that we have, but it'd be nice to have, I suppose.
| emacsen wrote:
| That's a good distinction to draw, and certainly clarifies
| things in some ways. The line between the two is somewhat
| blurry.
|
| Back in the day you're talking about, components were often
| discreet enough that they could be replaced. Today even
| something as simple as a capacitor is often difficult to
| replace on a modern circuit board due to a variety of
| factors.
|
| Certainly the large companies (Apple in particular) creates
| legal barriers to buying chips and other components. I
| think the distinction between availability and open source
| will be an interesting one to see how it plays out when
| hardware is involved.
| culopatin wrote:
| Do you have a comparison of battery runtime with each config?
| nrp wrote:
| We've tested MobileMark 2018 at ~11 hours on the Base config,
| dropping to ~10 hours on the Professional config (due to more
| DRAM). Runtime will always depend on workload though.
| culopatin wrote:
| It would be awesome if you could provide a more real life
| test like the reviewers you gave the laptop to will do.
| Having matching claims on your site vs what the reviewers
| say can only help your credibility, which is much needed as
| a new product.
|
| If you put 11hs on your site but the average reviewed time
| is 4hs, it's not going to look great.
|
| I know you guys are super busy launching this and there are
| a million things to look at, just sharing my opinion as a
| consumer.
|
| The other thing that would be useful to know is a clear
| return and warranty policy. The items I buy from Amazon
| without much worry are the ones I know I can return easily,
| for a product as new and unknown like yours, I'll probably
| stand back if I don't know what the return process works
| like.
|
| Thanks for responding!
| oldandboring wrote:
| Can you estimate an approximate ship date for Batch 2 pre-
| orders?
| Aachen wrote:
| It says right on top of the DIY configure page for me: batch
| 2 August, batch 3 September.
| oldandboring wrote:
| Yes, I know that. I was hoping to see if he could tell at
| this point when they would ship with some specificity, eg.
| first week in August, end of August, etc.
| rasz wrote:
| Great, you "somehow" missed my questions last time around.
|
| >Every module has a QR code on it that you can scan for step-
| by-step instructions, support information, and a link to order
| a replacement from the Framework Marketplace
|
| So its a dealer "repair" where you, the dealer, sell me a
| repair without the labour part in a form of black box to
| replace?
|
| What about the schematics? the Board files? Firmware?
|
| Who is the ODM? Compal? Pegatron? Quanta? Clevo? Wistron?
| Inventec? Flextronics?
|
| Did you pay for fully tailor made design? Who else sells a
| laptop with the exact same design (ignoring form factor)? You
| dont have a single EE listed on staff. What part of the
| electrical design do you own? Do you own any part of it at all?
| This sure looks like tweaked Acer Swift 3 SF313-53, same ODM?
|
| Do you own any part of the firmware that goes into the laptop?
| Will you be able to patch it?
|
| "Great Webcam in a Laptop" Thinkpad X1 tablet 2nd gen uses same
| OV2740, isnt exactly known for great camera. Optics and ISP
| tuning are the important bits. Can you post a demonstration
| video instead of one 1mpix picture of a laptop screen at an
| angle?
| dylan604 wrote:
| Are you trying to start your own company off the back of the
| research these guys have done?
|
| I didn't see anything about this company claiming 100% open
| source and private consciousness. I thought that was a
| different company that never really did anything because of
| issues you've asked about. If I'm wrong in that, please
| correct me. Certain chips just couldn't use custom open
| firmware, so no device was ever going to be 100% open.
|
| Just seems your questions might be a bit off target. No
| wonder you never got a response "the last time around".
| nrp wrote:
| Apologies for the miss. There were almost 1000 comments on
| the last big thread!
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508
|
| End users have the ability to order replacement parts for
| every part of the laptop, down to the granularity of things
| like individual flex cables. We've also released reference
| CAD under open source licenses for the Expansion Card system
| for people to be able to develop their own
| (https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/expansioncards). Our
| embedded controller firmware is also open source, and we'll
| be posting the repository shortly. Full schematics for the
| rest of the system are available to independent repair shops
| that get Framework hardware in for repair.
|
| Our main manufacturing partner is Compal, who makes laptops
| for many other large US notebook makers.
|
| Apart from off the shelf modules like the SSD, RAM, WiFi, and
| LCD, the Framework Laptop is entirely custom to us, and we
| own all of the design and tooling. We don't have an EE on the
| team page, but I am actually an electrical engineer by
| training (or at least that's what it says on my degree from
| Carnegie Mellon), and our systems lead Kieran is an EE by
| background as well.
|
| We own the embedded controller firmware, which is based on
| Chromium EC, and we'll be releasing the source soon. We use a
| licensed BIOS that we've customized for this go-around, but
| we would like to move to an open BIOS in the future.
|
| Some of the reviewers have positive comments on their hands-
| on experience with the webcam. While it won't be at the level
| of a standalone plug-in webcam, it is substantially better
| than what is available in other notebooks.
| pabs3 wrote:
| Have you sent your EC patches back to the upstream Chromium
| EC project?
| nrp wrote:
| I don't believe we have yet, but one challenge is that
| chromium-ec as a whole is in the process of migrating to
| Zephyr. We'll be needing to move over as well.
| dang wrote:
| > Great, you "somehow" missed my questions last time around.
|
| Please don't be a jerk in HN comments. Note this site
| guideline: " _Assume good faith._ "
|
| If you wouldn't mind reviewing
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking
| the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be
| grateful.
| numpad0 wrote:
| > Acer Swift 3 SF313-53
|
| Wow, does look almost identical, except renders/photos are
| showing _keyboard_ for this laptop removed than _bottom case_
| for Acer version. To be fair they don't seem like a huge
| ripoff in terms of price though, only ~$300 which is more of
| a simple reality of low volume products.
| metaphor wrote:
| Had to see for myself[1][2]. Seriously...what are you guys
| smoking?
|
| - topside (primary servicing end)
|
| ...and then there's:
|
| - frontside (replaceable bezel, magnetic retention)
|
| - underside (venting pattern, 6 less securing screws)
|
| - keyboard layout (escape, arrows, tilde, backslash, left
| ctrl, delete)
|
| - power button (location, fingerprint reader integration)
|
| - peripheral support (modular af, reconfigurable, select
| your charger side)
|
| - camera, mic (integrated lockout)
|
| - lid opening extruded cut (narrower span)
|
| - internals (design for maintainability of the highest
| order; so different it's not even worth enumerating)
|
| - documentation (digital first approach, baked onto every
| sub-assembly)
|
| Wish I could get a closer look at the bezel electronics.
| What other details did I miss?
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-TFTvjIl4o
|
| [2] https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/series/swift3
| numpad0 wrote:
| Mainboard/logicboard is exactly the same. Left side of
| the logicboard in the original Acer design is connected
| via a flex cable, which is where modularity daughterboard
| goes, which means that that part is custom and probably
| just a USB-C.
|
| The main opening being on topside as opposed to bottom
| means the enclosure is custom made. So what.
|
| Overall it's not something that we are smoking, it's
| basic understanding in laptops and modern electronics.
| nrp wrote:
| Apologies, but I don't see it either.
|
| The internals of that Acer: https://www.notebookcheck.net
| /fileadmin/_processed_/e/0/csm_...
|
| The internals of the Framework Laptop: https://images.pri
| smic.io/frameworkmarketplace/df9863d8-4512...
| pikrzyszto wrote:
| Are there any plans for ECC memory support?
| Teever wrote:
| 1. What was the sort of reaction to your unorthodox modular
| laptop design from the OEMs who are used to making standard
| laptop designs? Do OEMs have a preference for making disposable
| products or do you think that they see opportunity in making
| more modular machines that users can upgrade piece-meal over
| years?
|
| 2. Is there anything hardware wise that would prevent someone
| from making an arm based motherboard for this device, or even a
| RISCV based motherboard?
| nrp wrote:
| From our manufacturing partners, there was definite
| skepticism at first, but as we worked together it became
| immediately clear that what we had proposed was entirely
| doable! For consumer electronics brands, I think their
| challenge will be the business model shift that comes from
| focusing on longevity instead of short replacement cycles. We
| have a counter-positioned business model to that!
|
| Nope, it is entirely doable from a technical perspective to
| build an ARM SoC-based mainboard for the Framework Laptop! I
| haven't seen a RISC-V SoC that has the necessary interfaces
| for it to work well in a laptop yet, but I strongly suspect
| that isn't far away.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| This is a really interesting product. Is there any hope of
| onboard graphics being an option in the future? How upgradable
| are the CPUs/motherboards?
| nrp wrote:
| It's unlikely we'll add discrete graphics in this form
| factor, but integrated graphics is actually much better than
| it has been in the past (e.g. Overwatch and GTA:V can run at
| 60fps), and there is also support for eGPUs.
|
| We've designed the mainboard to be end-user replaceable for
| upgrades, and we'll be developing new ones for future CPU
| platforms as we go.
| fragileone wrote:
| How is the eGPU support? I had to get a 2018 Dell XPS with
| 4 PCIe lane Thunderbolt 3 support since the 2017 version
| had only 2 PCIe lanes dedicated to TB3.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| Thanks for the quick answer! Any thought of a larger form-
| factor model eventually?
| nrp wrote:
| There's nothing we can say yet, but we're not done with
| our mission!
| nrp wrote:
| I am out of question-answering time for the day, but will
| respond tomorrow to anything new that comes up. Thanks everyone
| for the thoughtful questions, interest in what we're building,
| and belief in our mission!
| BoysenberryPi wrote:
| 2 questions:
|
| 1. Have you sent review copies to any independent review
| channels like LTT, Gamers Nexus, etc etc? I've seen the Tested
| video but that was in a very controlled environment and I'm
| mainly waiting on independent reviews before buying one.
|
| 2. More of a business question that I'll understand if you
| don't want to answer, without sharing any actual numbers, has
| the preorder volume been more or less than you expected?
| COGlory wrote:
| There is an LTT review up on floatplane. Presumably it will
| go to YouTube soon. The long short of it is Linus loves it
| and purchases his own.
| LilBytes wrote:
| Is there? I can't see it :-/ Edit: My mistake, look for "A
| completely upgradeable laptop?"
| nrp wrote:
| Yes! We can't pre-announce anyone's reviews, but we have sent
| review units out to a few of the big tech review YouTube
| channels.
|
| The pre-order volume has been roughly in line with our
| expectations. The one big surprise for us was just how much
| more popular the Framework Laptop DIY Edition is than the
| pre-built Framework Laptop. We expected some preference from
| early adopters, but it's actually multiples of volume.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| > The one big surprise for us was just how much more
| popular the Framework Laptop DIY Edition is than the pre-
| built Framework Laptop.
|
| I'd suggest the reason is primarily that it's a lot more
| configurable -- people can get closer to their ideal
| feature set for the least spend (if only by not paying for
| Windows if they just want Linux).
| thereddaikon wrote:
| PC World posted a teardown video last night. It makes working
| on any other laptop look like a chore.
| peregrine wrote:
| Any plans for AMD or ARM processor options? The amd ryzen stuff
| has nearly good performance per watt that the M1 does. I really
| can't see myself buying another intel processor for at least a
| few generations.
| nrp wrote:
| Noted in other comments, but we have designed the mainboard
| to be replaceable and upgradeable by the end user to new CPU
| platforms. We haven't announced anything yet, but this is a
| core part of the design and architecture of the product.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| You seem to be misinformed.
|
| Everyone loves to hate Intel (and rightfully so) but Tiger
| Lake has better IPC and implicitly better single threaded
| performance than Ryzen. In real world tasks (web browsing,
| opening an IDE) it often comes on top of AMD.
|
| It only loses to AMD in multi threaded benchmarks because of
| the lower core count (everyone loves to flex Cinebench scores
| online, but I buy my laptop to use, not run benchmarks).
|
| Also, the iGPU in Tiger Lake is more modern and more powerful
| than the outdated Vega iGPU in Ryzen and it also has AV1
| codec hardware decoding unlike Ryzen which is stuck at VP9.
|
| Add in Thunderbolt support and using Tiger Lake makes perfect
| sense for this form factor. Ryzen shines best in gaming
| laptops with discrete GPUs.
| Const-me wrote:
| > In real world tasks (web browsing, opening an IDE)
|
| My real-world task is not opening an IDE, it's using that
| IDE. Modern C++ compilers are using all available CPU cores
| just fine.
|
| > It only loses to AMD in multi threaded benchmarks
|
| These are the only workloads I care about. Not just
| compilation, many other things as well.
|
| You only need single-threaded performance for 2 things, for
| the stuff that's inherently serial like gzip, or to run
| programs made more than 5-10 years ago.
|
| I don't normally play games on a laptop, but even
| videogames use multiple cores for decades now, since the
| Xbox 360 / PS3 generation.
| MikusR wrote:
| Also web is still single threaded.
| rvanlaar wrote:
| What do you mean by that?
|
| Firefox and Chrome both have gpu hardware acceleration,
| and different threads/processes for UI and webpages.
| scns wrote:
| Javascript is parsed and executed on one core.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| If you have just one tab, with a simple webpage with no
| iframe, yes. But this use-case is handled even by a
| first-gen Raspberry Pi.
|
| Once you start having several tas open, or web pages with
| different iframes, modern browsers put those in different
| processes.
| Const-me wrote:
| Indeed, but web is not computationally expensive. Even
| old computers like my laptop with i3-6157u CPU handle web
| just fine.
| rvanlaar wrote:
| For gzip, try pigz. It's the parallel version of it.
|
| I used to want high single core performance for my python
| code. I've since switched to using VSCode with
| devcontainers which run remotely on my 5950x. That makes
| it fast enough ;-).
| loufe wrote:
| > You only need single-threaded performance for 2 things,
| for the stuff that's inherently serial like gzip, or to
| run programs made more than 5-10 years ago.
|
| You must not be grand strategy game players. Any titles
| from Paradox and some other popular games are all limited
| by single core IPC. They are a great example of the
| limits of multi-threading, some processes and problems
| cannot be adapted to take advantage of it. If I get such
| a laptop I'd spend 50% of the time I use it playing such
| games.
| Const-me wrote:
| > They are a great example of the limits of multi-
| threading
|
| These are examples of lazy programmers and PC-only games.
| Consoles have many cores for decades and these cores are
| slower than PCs, developers of cross-platform titles have
| embraced multithreading for quite some time now.
|
| Multithreading does have limits. Some things are
| borderline impossible to parallelize, examples include
| gzip, streaming encryption algorithms, or parsing long
| streams of HTML and JavaScript. However, vast majority of
| the CPU-bound stuff found in videogames scales just fine
| with CPU cores.
| sjogress wrote:
| I must say the Framework laptop is a very enticing offering!
|
| Do you plan on offering it in Scandinavia with Scandinavian
| keyboard layouts?
| nrp wrote:
| We do have artwork ready for several Scandinavian keyboard
| layouts. The actual timing for each county will be later this
| year or next year.
| base698 wrote:
| Where is mine?
| G3rn0ti wrote:
| Where do I get all drivers required when I decide to install
| Windows myself buying the DIY version?
| nrp wrote:
| We have a link to the driver bundle at the end of the Windows
| installation guide: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Windows+1
| 0+Installation+on+t...
| schmorptron wrote:
| Hey! Love the entire concept behind it. That being said, for
| mass-adoption and a large parts "ecosystem", do you guys
| anticipate you'll be able to get the initial price for the
| laptop down in the future with either cheaper casing materials
| or after recouping the initial R&D cost for the custom
| motherboard design and such?
|
| It's totally understandable that the first product from a
| rather small company would demand some sort of higher price,
| your initial investment into R&D and product design &
| manufacturing must've been huge! But is this something we can
| expect to get a bit better in the future?
| nrp wrote:
| The base price for a new system will likely stay in this
| range, barring future lower-end mainboards like one using an
| ARM SoC. However, one thing that will help on cost of entry
| in the future is refurbished and used Framework Laptops.
| Since the product is easy to repair and upgrade, we want to
| foster a healthy secondary market.
|
| We don't want anyone to put an old Framework Laptop that they
| are not using into a drawer and forget about it. We want to
| get them to list it on the Framework Marketplace to find
| another happy user.
| schmorptron wrote:
| Alright, thanks for the answer!
| pzo wrote:
| Some idea about considering other option as well. Would be
| great to buy your motherboard (original with some adapter
| or completely differently designed) that would fit into old
| macbooks or thinkpads - this way people could reuse case,
| keyboard, touchpad and maybe even battery or screen.
| TreeInBuxton wrote:
| If you ever do start doing bringup of an Arm SoC, drop me
| an email (in my profile) - I work on an internal BSP team
| at Arm and would be happy to (unofficially) assist
| rogers18445 wrote:
| How many monitors can you plug into the laptop given the
| appropriate number of modules? Unlikely to be 4, but is it at
| least 2 or hopefully 3?
| arendtio wrote:
| It probably depends on resolution and refresh rate, so you
| might want to add some details.
| nrp wrote:
| You can run 4 4k 60hz monitors simultaneously if you turn
| off the internal display, or three if you keep the internal
| display on. The maximum external display resolution is 8k
| 60hz, but you can't run multiple of those.
| arendtio wrote:
| Sounds cool.
|
| I have a Lenovo Thinkpad T490 which struggles to drive
| two 4k displays at reasonable refresh rates. 4k60 + 4k30
| is the best I was able to achieve so far (via Thunderbolt
| and an additional HDMI cable).
| busymom0 wrote:
| This is outstanding. One question -
|
| I really wish there was a way to remove the camera as well as
| microphone (if there's any built in). Is that possible?
| nrp wrote:
| We have hardware kill switches for both the camera and the
| microphone. You can actually also remove that module entirely
| if you'd like. We published a guide on how to replace the
| webcam (so you would just stop after the removal steps): http
| s://guides.frame.work/Guide/Webcam+Replacement+Guide/87?...
| fsflover wrote:
| Consider Librem 14 laptop instead, it has hardware kill
| switches. By the way, I wish this laptop had them too.
| nrp wrote:
| Good news! We do have hardware kill switches for both the
| camera and microphone: https://frame.work/blog/1080p-webcam
| fsflover wrote:
| Amazing, thank you!
| ghego1 wrote:
| Thank you for this! I love the colored bezels, even if it's not
| much, it's one of those little things that make a difference.
|
| Any plans to sell in Europe (Italy)?
| nrp wrote:
| Yes. We have the necessary certifications for Europe, and are
| working through setting up keyboard languages, fulfillment,
| support, and everything else we will need to have to be
| successful there.
| modernerd wrote:
| Great to hear! Checkout page request: please make it so you
| can buy a different keyboard than your shipping
| address/locale, in case that's not already on your roadmap.
|
| Apple/Lenovo let you spec an "English International" (ISO)
| keyboard even if you're shipping to Germany/Austria, for
| example, so that you're not forced to buy QWERTZ.
| stkdump wrote:
| Does the extra connector reduce the quality of the USB-C
| signal? I am asking because my current notebook seems already a
| bit flaky with a 4K 60Hz display connected via USB-C,
| especially with an extra docking station in between. DP and
| HDMI directly from the notebook seem a bit more stable.
| nrp wrote:
| There is a small amount of signal loss from the extra
| connector pair. This is normally fine, but if your
| monitor+cable situation is already flaky, there is
| potentially risk there. We would recommend picking up a cable
| designed to higher protocol standards or using a shorter
| cable if you see issues.
| luckystarr wrote:
| Any plans to "open up" (for a price) the specification for
| outside companies, so they can build components labeled
| "framework compatible" or some such?
| nrp wrote:
| Absolutely. We've already released open source reference
| designs publicly for the Expansion Card system, and we're
| happy to enable third parties on other modules too.
| skykooler wrote:
| What about the cover with the keyboard and trackpad?I know
| you've said it's expensive to make tooling for, but perhaps
| a 3rd party could offer an alternate version with a
| trackpoint or something?
| geophile wrote:
| Why a 3:2 display? That is an extremely odd choice. I used 4:3
| displays for years, and was very pleased when wider displays
| became available.
| vngzs wrote:
| I _love_ 3:2 displays. They 're wider than 4:3 but maintain
| the vertical height necessary to see a bunch of code
| onscreen. If I only get one display (for portable use), I'll
| pick 3:2 every day.
| bitL wrote:
| 3:2 is great for coding. I've just started using 3:2 Zenbook
| S UX393 3300x2200 and that screen ratio is phenomenal!
| ghosty141 wrote:
| The trend is going that way again. 16:10/3:2 is becoming very
| common again and that's great! The extra screen real estate
| is very useful and the body can accomodate a bigger touchpad.
| 16:9 limts vertical space a little too much imo.
| binarycrusader wrote:
| Why not? Microsoft Surface devices also have a 3:2 display.
| Personally I love 3:2 displays as vertical space makes for a
| far more pleasant experience programming and reading.
| nrp wrote:
| Yep! The better experience for writing and coding with more
| vertical real estate is why we chose it. It also gave us a
| better form factor to work with for enabling our Expansion
| Card system.
| timwaagh wrote:
| What kind of premium do you ask vs a reasonably priced brand
| like Acer?
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| 1) What are the chances of a 15.6 inch version with a numpad or
| should I not hold my breath?
|
| 2) Are dGPUs expected in the this or an upcoming version?
|
| 3) Color options other than white?
|
| 4a) Does the keyboard use low-profile Cherry switches or
| something else? (Edited)
|
| 4b) Are the keys backlit? (Edited)
|
| 5) ETA on TB4 ports?
|
| 6) Is there a 99Wh battery for the laptop?
| nrp wrote:
| 1) We can't announce anything yet, but our current 13.5"
| Framework Laptop will certainly not be the last product we
| ever build!
|
| 2) See question 1.
|
| 3) We've designed the bezel to be color customizable, and
| there are some photos of orange and white ones on our
| website. We'll be adding more colors as we go. For the
| chassis itself, it is anodized aluminum. We don't currently
| have plans for additional aluminum colors though.
|
| 4) We have a custom keyboard with 1.5mm key travel scissor
| switches, which is longer key travel than most other <16mm
| notebooks.
|
| 5) We can't announce anything on Thunderbolt compatibility
| until we complete certifications, so keep a look out for
| that.
|
| 6) The internal battery is 55Wh.
| rsyring wrote:
| I bought six of these laptops for myself and my team,
| mostly to support your efforts. FWIW:
|
| 1) I'd like a 15.6" version
|
| 2) Without a keypad...don't throw off the symmetry of
| keyboard and touchpad
|
| 3) bigger battery
|
| Keep up the good work! I'd love to be using these laptops
| 15 years from now.
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! We hope you're using them 15 years from now too!
|
| We can't say anything about future product plans yet, but
| our current laptop is not the last product we'll build!
| skavi wrote:
| Could the current model have TB4 enabled via software? Is
| everything there on the hardware side?
| nrp wrote:
| We have the hardware for it, but until we can complete
| certification, we can't claim Thunderbolt compatibility.
| jsmith45 wrote:
| I suppose what this really means is that you have USB4
| with support for the optional PCIE tunneling, and support
| for the slightly higher frequency alternative mode, which
| is generally enough to function with peripherals labeled
| as Thunderbolt, since it is literally exactly the same
| protocol.
|
| Somewhat obnoxious that you need additional certification
| to actually call it what it obviously is.
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| I edited the 4th question. Hopefully you see and answer 4b!
| Thanks for answering my other questions. I'll certainly be
| looking forward to your product as more information and
| metrics materialize.
| nrp wrote:
| Yep! The keys are backlit.
| abledon wrote:
| I love how you are actually mentioning the 1.5mm key
| travel.... on so many other laptop review sites, and
| manufacturer sites, they don't list the key travel. It is
| infuriating when shopping for laptops.
|
| To hear it has a generous 1.5mm is awesome, i'll definitely
| be keeping an eye on it in the near future for the 15"
| version.
| rvanlaar wrote:
| I'm wondering about 5, thunderbolt.
|
| I now use a lenovo X1 thinkpad and use an external GPU to
| drive 2 4K monitors. The internal Intel UHD 620 just can't
| handle.
|
| Is the intel Xe graphics enough to handle this? If so,
| thunderbolt would be a nice to have, but not a requirement.
| tomComb wrote:
| I find numpad throws off the alignment of the keyboard
| relative to the touchpad and to the weight of the device. You
| clearly want a numpad, but I would suggest most users should
| avoid them, particularly if the will use the laptop on their
| lap.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I would love to have a 10-key option, and to that end I
| have attempted using a wireless option. That device however
| won't even pair to my laptop. I would even be willing to
| use a wired one, but not enough of me to make it viable for
| someone to make. So many shortcut keys in my software are
| missing for a laptop keyboard. Instead, I have to use a
| full sized external keyboard and carry it around with me
| instead of just a useful smaller external 10-key.
| winthrowe wrote:
| What about a hex numpad? IPv6Buddy is a real shipping
| product, according to their longstanding website.
| dylan604 wrote:
| LOL, i've never heard of this thing before. However that
| is not useful even as a gag.
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| What model of keyboard do you carry with you?
| dylan604 wrote:
| The full sized Mac USB keyboard
| gilbertbw wrote:
| I might be understanding, but is something like this
| https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/#keypads what you're
| looking for?
| dylan604 wrote:
| almost, but i'd really love to have the home/end keys as
| well
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Fully agreed, for me, with any size of laptop the presence
| of an integrated numpad is a real nuisance due to how it
| awkward it makes typing and trackpad usage.
|
| That said, there are times when numpads are useful. That's
| why on my desktop, I have a discrete numpad sitting to the
| left of my keyboard, which allows the most used keys to
| remain centered.
|
| It would be neat if someone made a numpad module for these
| laptops that can plug into either side of the laptop, and
| then be tucked away when not in use. The little rails in
| the module bays should make typing on the numpad almost as
| solid as typing on the main keyboard.
| blacktriangle wrote:
| This is so important. I bought a laptop with a numpad
| thinking it would be a huge win for spreadsheet jockying,
| ended up never using the laptop due to how much of a
| nightmare it is to type on due to the keyboard being
| offcenter. Numpads on laptops are just failure.
| mrleinad wrote:
| Any plans for a different keyboard layout? I see you have
| planned for different languages, but I didn't see different
| layouts.
| nrp wrote:
| We currently have ANSI and ISO layouts for languages, and JIS
| coming soon. Within this form factor, those are likely what
| we are limited to.
| rgoulter wrote:
| How feasible do you think an ortholinear layout would be?
| nrp wrote:
| It is technically possible, but the cost of custom
| tooling for it would be unfortunately be astronomical
| relative to the number that we could reasonably sell. At
| some point in the future as we continue to grow the
| Framework Laptop install base, we'd love to revisit that
| though!
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| Not really a question, but if you one day offered a thicker
| version with the option of an extended battery and more key
| travel, that would be exciting
| Foomf wrote:
| Any plans on a model with a touchscreen? If this could have a
| touchscreen, I'd buy it in an instant!
| nrp wrote:
| We designed the display interface to be able to support a
| touchscreen, and we've designed the display to be easy to
| replace, but we don't have a touchscreen yet!
| Frameworkscr wrote:
| Perhapa just kike the initial announcement post- list out
| all the replacements in piepeline so people wont ask "any
| plans for this optjon"
| Elvar wrote:
| Why are there not a Linux version? Hate to pay for Windows,
| that i won't be using anyway.
| bmsleight_ wrote:
| Customise the order and there is an bring your own OS option.
| gradstudent wrote:
| It's a shame it's not an option for the preconfigured
| version. Especially as the DIY Laptop pricing has Windows
| 10 at ~$200.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| > You can also load your own operating system later, like a
| Linux distribution.
|
| Yeah, but I'd rather not pay for that Windows license.
|
| Edit: Oh, I see that you have to DIY the entire laptop in
| order to NOT select a Windows OS.
| nrp wrote:
| That is correct, DIY Edition comes without an OS
| installed or an OS license (though you can add a Windows
| license).
|
| We've made the setup process for the DIY Edition really
| straightforward, and we think kind of fun too: https://gu
| ides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition...
| ajot wrote:
| Do you have any other keyboard + pointing device design in
| mind? I've read sibling comments about trackpoint and numpad,
| but what about a 7-row keyboard and/or a smaller trackpad with
| real buttons for clicking? Is this possible? Do you see there's
| a market for it?
| nrp wrote:
| The cover that the keyboard and touchpad install into is the
| limiting factor. The tooling for that part is extremely
| expensive, so we only have one version of it. We have the
| ability to install ANSI, ISO, and JIS keyboard layouts with
| any language in the artwork, but we can't change the keyboard
| or touchpad geometry beyond that without shelling out big
| money for a new cover.
|
| A touchpad with buttons is something we believe could fit in
| the existing cover though, and something we want to explore
| more when we have time.
| Liskni_si wrote:
| +1
|
| The current keyboard is not really fit to be used as a
| primary keyboard. A proper 7-row keyboard with full-sized
| arrows is really a must for people who use laptop keyboards
| as their main daily driver. Here's a picture of what one
| looks like: https://imgur.com/Epo5kBw
|
| Please make something like that possible!
| rarspace01 wrote:
| When can I expect a German Keyboard?
| Seirdy wrote:
| One of the biggest causes of (un)planned obsolescence, if not
| the biggest cause, is an end to firmware and microcode updates.
| Once they stop coming in, vulnerabilities start piling up.
|
| For how many years can consumers expect to receive these
| updates?
| nrp wrote:
| For the firmware we control, there is relatively little
| surface area and it is easy for us to continue to maintain.
| For the firmware that is delivered or embedded by Intel,
| we're in the same boat as everyone else using the same CPUs.
| OJFord wrote:
| Can you give the roughest of indications for European orders
| (UK for me, if it's going to be that granular)? I've been
| signed up to the mailing list to be notified since first post
| here, really looking forward to it; I've been tempted to use
| Canadian pre-order via a favour ever since that opened up, but
| should I just be patient, will it be 'soon'?
|
| Do you anticipate that (if this goes as well as I hope and
| assume it will/is) a v2 model would have an upgrade path from
| 'v1' (as it were, that for pre-order/sale now) - i.e. buy new
| case, new motherboard (or whatever) and it's effectively the
| same as if you bought the new one? Or have you accepted/do you
| think that not _all_ parts can be fully modular and
| independently saleable?
| nrp wrote:
| We're aiming to be in the UK, parts of Europe, and parts of
| Asia by year's end.
|
| We plan to keep compatible within the current chassis for the
| foreseeable future. This means that as we support new CPU
| platforms, existing users can upgrade to them by replacing
| their mainboard (and in some cases memory).
| pmorici wrote:
| Will there be a version that you can use a 2.5" drive with?
| baybal2 wrote:
| Who is manufacturing it? Did you pick a single contractor, or
| separate companies make separate modules?
| nrp wrote:
| I noted in another comment that we partnered with Compal as
| our main manufacturer, as they are one of the strongest
| notebook manufacturers currently and they believe in our
| mission.
|
| For many of the other modules, we've partnered with other
| manufacturers specialized in different areas. We have a
| series of technical deep dive blog posts where we go into
| each: https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-deep-divethe-
| touchp...
| baybal2 wrote:
| How do you connect the keyboard?
|
| I see the cable from the keyboard in the upper lid not
| going directly to the main PCB, but first to the same board
| as the touchpad. Is there some IC scanning the keyboard
| right in the keyboard module, and turning it to something
| like usb or i2c?
| nrp wrote:
| The touchpad PCB acts as a passive signal passthrough for
| both the keyboard and the fingerprint reader, so that we
| can have a single cable going from the Input Cover to the
| mainboard.
| dbeley wrote:
| Hope it succeeds, the HN-crowd is obviously very tacky and
| already know some well established alternatives (used thinkpads,
| librem laptops, pinebook, MNT reform) that may be even better for
| a niche audience (open hardware, no management engine, trackpoint
| option, etc.), hence the criticism.
|
| But marketed directly to the people that buy all the "normal"
| laptops out there, it could be a great success.
| freeopinion wrote:
| Still no Ryzen option? Pass.
| andrepd wrote:
| Shame it has no AMD configs, and also that I can't buy it without
| Windows.
| Karsteski wrote:
| Check the DIY edition, you can get it without paying for the
| windows license there
| kyledrake wrote:
| There really needs to be an option to include Linux or even just
| no OS. It's really frustrating to have to pay the Microsoft tax
| for something that's supposed to give me a choice and modularity.
| [deleted]
| md2020 wrote:
| There is in the DIY option, but I agree it'd be nice to have
| the Linux/no OS option in the pre-built as well.
| g_delgado14 wrote:
| You can choose "bring your own / no OS" option when you build
| your own.
| kup0 wrote:
| I really, REALLY hope this takes off. This would be my ideal
| laptop
| Zachsa999 wrote:
| Damn once saw the swappable ports I suddenly needed a new laptop.
| Anyone want to buy a 1yo thinkpad?
| chana_masala wrote:
| If you're sincere - what are the specs?
| lyptt wrote:
| Shame it's not shipping to the UK yet. Hopefully it does soon.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| This is awesome but Windows? Should ship with Linux option, it
| isn't hard. Other nitpicks:
|
| - USB C Module should have two ports at least.
|
| - Ports in the back, who wants a monitor cable sticking out the
| side? No one does this anymore.
|
| - Waiting for larger screen.
|
| Props for 3:2 screen and modules.
| whitepaint wrote:
| Oh man, I really hope you guys have a huge success.
| 0235005 wrote:
| Great! I hope you all the best. I know it's kind of a generic
| comment but I've been waiting so long for a computer like this, I
| really hope that your crush the market
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! It really is long overdue, and we've seen a ton of
| enthusiasm from folks who have been waiting for this. It's all
| the more strange that laptops are so locked down, since desktop
| PCs are one of the few remaining consumer product categories
| where repair, upgrade, and customization are the norm.
| colordrops wrote:
| The DIY form jumps around after each selection is made, at least
| on mobile. Not fatal, but quite annoying.
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks for the report! We'll dig into it.
| colordrops wrote:
| More detail: It takes a couple seconds for the selection to
| register, and if you scroll after tapping but before it
| registers, it scrolls back to your original position.
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! It turns out this was on our backlog, but we had
| deprioritized solving it. With the massive amount of
| traffic on the site today, the slowness makes it much
| easier to hit. We're reprioritizing fixing it.
| naturalauction wrote:
| Very specific question but how much is a replacement screen and
| can you do the repair yourself with just a screwdriver? I've
| somehow broken my screen twice with each of my last two laptops
| and at least for the MacBook, screen replacements were like $400
| a pop.
| nrp wrote:
| You can replace the screen with just a screwdriver (in fact,
| the screwdriver we include in the box with every Framework
| Laptop). We haven't set pricing for this replacement module
| yet, but our general philosophy around repair part pricing is
| to make it the obvious choice to do the repair.
|
| Edit: This is actually one of the guides we published recently:
| https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Display+Replacement+Guide/86...
| Teknoman117 wrote:
| Is there any public documentation about the expansion card
| interface? Is it USB 3 or Thunderbolt or something custom? The
| storage expansion card says it's using USB 3.2.
| deathanatos wrote:
| > _We designed the adapter to be modular, with both the 1m AC
| cable and 2m USB-C cable detachable and replaceable, reducing
| waste in case your cat chews through one of them._
|
| Thank you. This is one of my chief annoyances with Lenovo's
| connector, and it smacks of planned obsolescence, since there is
| no other conceivable reason for it. I think every brick I've had
| has failed in the same spot: between the connector and cord at
| the laptop, which, of course, is the non-replaceable cable.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Isn't this exactly the same as Apple's design?
| rsynnott wrote:
| -ish; the Apple one no longer comes with an AC extension,
| though you can still get them and attach them.
| nrp wrote:
| Yes! It seemed pretty obvious to us that this is the right way
| to go. Keeping the AC cable removable is also nice for
| international travel, since IEC C5 cables for different AC plug
| types are extremely inexpensive.
| stefandesu wrote:
| Our cat likes to chew on cables if we're not careful, and he
| has already destroyed multiple cables including one older Apple
| MacBook charger which costs like $80 to replace if bought from
| Apple.
| selykg wrote:
| Been there... I try really hard to keep the cables hidden so
| she can't see them, and my office is a no fly zone for her.
| So far so good. But she's ruined something like $300-400
| worth of cables. Worse is the risk of fire or electrocution
| that bothers me.
| paxys wrote:
| Any plans to sell one without a Windows license? If I bought one
| I'd immediately format it and run Linux, so would be nice to not
| have to pay the ~$100 extra.
| wayneftw wrote:
| Yes, they already do that. You can pre-order it that way if you
| wish.
| paxys wrote:
| All 3 options available on their website right now come with
| Windows.
| wayneftw wrote:
| Start configuring from the DIY edition.
| nrp wrote:
| Here's a link to the Framework Laptop DIY Edition, which
| defaults to no operating system:
| https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition
| COGlory wrote:
| They already do. The DIY edition..
| gnull wrote:
| Is there a possibility to install more exotic peripherals like 4g
| modem (or a smartcard slot)? I don't see them mentioned anywhere,
| but I'd expect a hackable laptop to have these.
| cl3misch wrote:
| The concept sounds more like "user serviceable" than "hackable"
| to me.
|
| But still, knowing the physical dimensions of the slot and
| having the USB-C port itself providing retention, it should be
| straightforward for 3rd parties to design more peripherals.
| swalsh wrote:
| Super disapointed. Just a few weeeks ago I bought a macbook pro
| with an M1 from Apple, it's kind of the default choice at the
| moment. I love the concept of this laptop so much though. If it
| was available when I was making my choice, I would have seriously
| considered it as an option.
| okamiueru wrote:
| I would think apple products are the antithesis to the
| Framework laptop. How can you go from the M1 being "the default
| choice", and being disappointed that this wasn't a possibility?
| Wouldn't there have been a myriad of other choices closer to
| the Framework laptop, than the M1?
| swalsh wrote:
| It's a love/hate relationship. I hate the closed nature of
| Apple, but it's a superior build quality.
|
| This laptop looks like it offers both.
| okamiueru wrote:
| I see. I suppose that might make sense. I would personally
| trust the ThinkPads to have higher build quality than a
| non-battle tested new brand.
|
| But, then again, I would also consider the ability to
| change a faulty part as part of the build quality equation,
| and as such rank apple products much further down than
| most.
| thefr0g wrote:
| Are there other companies doing similiar projects? This is a good
| step in the right direction but there are some major drawbacks
| for me:
|
| - 3:2 screen makes the laptop bigger and adds space thats pretty
| much useless except for video editing I guess
|
| - No option without camera, mic and fingerprint reader
|
| - Intel CPU
|
| - Thin instead of robust
|
| - American company
| Karsteski wrote:
| I had a surface pro throughout university and I found 3:2 to be
| perfect for productivity. Also it's nice to be able to see more
| code if you're into that.
|
| Why don't you like that they are American?
| thefr0g wrote:
| > Also it's nice to be able to see more code if you're into
| that.
|
| I guess that depends on font scaling but if there is code
| that long there is usually something wrong with it :D
|
| I like to have views side by side but the 3:2 doesn't really
| help with that either (at least for code on 13")
|
| > Why don't you like that they are American?
|
| That usually complicates payment and shipping (at least with
| smaller companies) plus I don't really like (indirectly)
| supporting a government that thinks human rights are for
| citizens only.
| throwuxiytayq wrote:
| The fact that it has a 3:2 screen makes me IMMENSLY happy. Hope
| they manage to eat up some of the MS Surface userbase.
| anoncow wrote:
| Is the webcam upgradable?
| nrp wrote:
| We've designed it to be easy to replace:
| https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Webcam+Replacement+Guide/87?...
|
| We don't currently have any plans for a new version of that
| module, but it would be upgradeable if we did in the future.
| victor9000 wrote:
| I've never dealt with captured case screws before, what happens
| if the screws get stripped? Is there a way to swap them out?
| nrp wrote:
| We use a T5 bit to make it really hard to strip, but in the
| event it ever does, you can remove the fasteners with a bit of
| effort and probably another tool to apply force to get the
| thread to bite.
| mindcrime wrote:
| Really happy to see this news. I hope these folks succeed. I'd
| order one right now if I hadn't just bought a new System76
| machine a month or so ago.
|
| Still, if I can find some free disposable cash anytime soon, I
| might order one anyway, just to support the concept and to have a
| spare machine. I'm sure I could use an extra machine for
| something-or-other.
| liminalsunset wrote:
| Does Framework [the company] offer, or plan to offer internship
| opportunities for students at any point? As a student, I would
| love to have the ability to work at a company like Framework that
| is innovating for a good cause.
| nrp wrote:
| When job offers were getting rescinded in summer 2020, we
| opened up an internship and brought in an awesome firmware
| intern. We didn't have the bandwidth this summer for interns
| (and the job market is much better), but it is something we'll
| do again in the future.
| anentropic wrote:
| I think I like the 3:2 aspect even more than the modularity!
| filereaper wrote:
| Any idea if we/when we can get a Ryzen based models?
|
| Ryzens have higher thread-counts and Vega Graphics outperforms
| Iris graphics.
|
| If this can be paired with Thunderbolt, I'd be super happy to
| purchase this laptop.
|
| The idea of swappable ports is great! Why not make a large 17"
| model with desktop components and even more ports?
| truth_ wrote:
| I would really like an AMD version, too.
|
| Buying Intel makes no sense now.
| speedgoose wrote:
| My Intel i9 gaming laptop is pretty good to keep food warm or
| dry my hair.
| vngzs wrote:
| Ryzen tends to get better battery too. I read an article
| complaining about high temperatures and bad battery life, both
| of which tend to be significantly better on AMD hardware.
| Honestly, it's the only thing keeping me from ordering one
| today.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| great design. looks like the 2015 mac book pro. i'll continue to
| use mine until the wheels fall off.
| mateuszf wrote:
| I wonder about the software though. - What kind
| of BIOS does it have? - Does it support coreboot? -
| Can Intel Management Engine be disabled?
|
| I was looking for something similar recently and have found
| StarBook MK V - https://starlabs.systems/pages/starbook.
|
| It supports coreboot and has most of Intel Management Engine
| voided.
|
| It's repairability looks good too: > Open
| warranty. Laptops designed for open-source software need open
| warranties. Our 1-year limited warranty allows you to take your
| laptop apart, replace parts, install an upgrade, use any
| operating system and even your own firmware, all without voiding
| the warranty.
| user_agent wrote:
| Regardless of the questions stated, thank you for mentioning
| Starlabs Systems, @mateuszf. I'll be looking for an Intel-ME-
| free laptop during my next purchase and I had no idea about
| that particular project.
| jonatron wrote:
| Ctrl+f for the first two questions
| mateuszf wrote:
| Ok, seems that the BIOS is proprietary, but they're planning
| to support coreboot in future.
| tablespoon wrote:
| https://frame.work/products/laptop
|
| > Display
|
| > 13.5" 3:2
|
| > 2256x1504, 100% sRGB color gamut, and >400 nit
|
| I approve.
| sinsterizme wrote:
| The pluggable expansion card (usb, hdmi, storage, etc.) feature
| is SUCH a great idea! Great work, and congrats on the milestone
| squarefoot wrote:
| This is fantastic! The pluggable module concept makes it even
| more appealing. I can easily see a lot of development going in
| modules for various tasks (multi i/o audio/midi card, A/D signal
| analyzer/scope front end, LoRa transceiver, ECG analog interface,
| etc.) so that "only" 4 ports might one day even become a
| limitation. Seriously considering one. They will need to arrange
| with some resellers in the EU however, or shipping+import taxes
| could make it too costly.
| mkoryak wrote:
| There is a bug on their configuration website where you get to
| the step with all the expansion cards and you get kicked out back
| to the main site.
|
| I wonder how many sales they are losing
| fmx wrote:
| Speaking of website bugs, whenever I change any options on
| https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-
| edition/configuration/edit it reloads a page, scrolling to the
| top. Probably not something that would stop me from buying if I
| was going to, but annoying nonetheless.
| blunte wrote:
| Great initiative, but who decided to put the user-hostile
| return/backslash keys together? Key gaps exist for a reason, and
| it's especially important on certain keys.
| smorrebrod wrote:
| I believe this is to accomodate for ISO layouts. They build one
| chassis which is compatible ANSI and ISO.
| novok wrote:
| Pretty exciting!
|
| A few questions:
|
| Why are the higher end cpu options so much more when the price
| difference is only about $100 according to intel and they all
| have the same core count? Do you plan to offer 6 core or more
| versions? AMD zen 3 or 4? Im guessing you will release a version
| with 12th cpus in the future?
|
| Will you have a version with two m.2 storage slots and maybe a
| bigger battery? A version with lpddr5 in the board?
|
| Are the usbc slots also thunderbolt 3 or 4 slots like a macbook
| pro? How is egpu support?
| eplanit wrote:
| Godspeed to framework! When you have a linux version I'll buy
| one.
| nrp wrote:
| We currently have the Framework Laptop DIY Edition, which ships
| with no OS installed. We're in the process of writing guides
| for Ubuntu 21.04 (works out of the box except fingerprint) and
| Fedora 34 (works entirely out of the box on the latest re-spin
| images!).
| eplanit wrote:
| Great! Thank you.
| arendtio wrote:
| I really like the replaceable USB-C ports. From my smartphone I
| know, these things wear-off when being used multiple times per
| day and being able to simply replace them is much more useful
| than it might look like at first sight.
| Aachen wrote:
| I hear this a lot but only from people with USB-C. Sure, on
| occasion you'd also hear someone who broke their mobile micro-
| USB or even USB-A laptop ports, but usually that was from
| bending the connector accidentally if I remember correctly.
|
| As someone with zero problems finding the correct orientation
| (it's both tactile _and_ visual) who is in the market for a new
| phone, makes me wonder if I should look for one with micro-USB
| again. Replacing that port sounds like hell, and I use devices
| at least 4 years so if C is prone to wearing I 'd definitely
| have to.
| eric__cartman wrote:
| Personally I've had more micro-USB connectors and cables fail
| than USB-C. Maybe it's just luck, but USB-C has been
| extremely reliable in my experience.
| arendtio wrote:
| Micro USB was definitely worse than USB-C.
|
| For context: I am someone who still has a 9 years old
| smartphone in use (not exclusively). So for the normal 24
| months usage the connectors might suffice, but I prefer
| solutions which are either easily replaceable or hold longer
| like wireless charging for example.
| jdc0589 wrote:
| im on year two with a USB-c phone and the only issue I have
| is having to pick pocket lint out of it every couple of
| months.
| dang wrote:
| Past related threads:
|
| _Framework Laptop - How ALL laptops should be made_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27925405 - July 2021 (5
| comments)
|
| _Framework Laptop - pre-orders are now open_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143545 - May 2021 (16
| comments)
|
| _Framework Laptop pre-orders are open, starting at $999_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27143076 - May 2021 (203
| comments)
|
| _Preparing for Pre-Orders! (Framework modular laptop)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27052468 - May 2021 (79
| comments)
|
| _The Framework Laptop_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26263508 - Feb 2021 (991
| comments)
| ilrwbwrkhv wrote:
| Inverted t missing
| Frameworkscr wrote:
| Hello there, mr creator nrp-- if ThinkPad durability were 10, how
| many points would you give yourself?
|
| Thanks for taking the risk and creating this.
| nrp wrote:
| I guess it would vary depending on the model of ThinkPad, but
| in general we follow the equivalent reliability test standards
| to what other laptop makers use for their premium models (e.g.
| the drop height and surface, hinge cycle count, etc).
| queuebert wrote:
| This would be perfect for me. I have a pile of Macs with various
| individual hardware failures that would never have been replaced
| had I been able to easily swap out new parts. (Not to mention the
| ridiculous hardware failure rate of Macs.)
|
| I also hate having machines with that one piece of hardware that
| doesn't work on *BSD, because getting it to work is such a pain.
| It would be much easier to swap out the offending hardware for
| something more compatible.
| sim_card_map wrote:
| Windows only, no option to use linux instead. Pass.
| loufe wrote:
| This is just plainly false. Take the time to read before
| spouting such negative drivel.
| kaishiro wrote:
| Instead of being so dismissive, you could have taken a few
| minutes to check the site. The DIY builds all allow you to drop
| Windows and roll your own OS:
| https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition/configuration...
| rb666 wrote:
| Pick DIY, select "None" for OS?
| tedk-42 wrote:
| Hi Nirav, exciting times ahead!
|
| Key highlights I'd like to point out is that you nailed the
| screen specs (3:2 and brightness) as well as the 1080p camera
| which is something that has always annoyed me.
|
| Do you have a timeline of how long you expect to keep the
| mainboard design replaceable with this frame?
|
| I'd personally love to see an AMD chip in there over Intel but
| this is right up there for my next laptop purchase (when i need!)
| - I expect people might wish to swap out the motherboard/cpu
| combo.
|
| Also, can we expect a bigger version?
| oxplot wrote:
| Major thumbs-up for AMD chip. With a replaceable main board,
| this will be a dream. I ordered a framework laptop at its
| highest CPU+RAM spec and can't wait to replace my 6 years old
| ThinkPad x250 with it.
|
| EDIT: would also add that the open source design USB-C based
| side modules are amazing - looking forward to designing my own
| modules.
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks! We're looking forward to seeing the modules everyone
| develops, and we're excited to get new mainboards out in the
| future.
| PlasticTank wrote:
| Another +1 for AMD from me, only reason I haven't bought
| one yet was I was hoping to get an AMD chip for my next
| laptop.
| trewnews wrote:
| I'll wait until there is an AMD CPU to buy with this setup.
| carlio wrote:
| +1 for AMD for me, I'd absolutely buy this today if I could
| get a 5000 series HS in it too.
| pzo wrote:
| Not sure if this is technically possible. However I would
| like to see in the future, version with AMD APU but
| replaceable so you can upgrade as well. Amd seems not
| selling ryzen mobile that is swappable but maybe possible
| to design motherboard that will fit ryzen desktop,
| undervolting it a little when not connected to power to
| conserve battery - even at the expense of slighty thicker
| laptop
| kubafu wrote:
| +1 for seeing AMD chip in it, please go for it!
| accelbred wrote:
| Any chance for an ortholinear keyboard?
| hexo wrote:
| +1
| criddell wrote:
| Why AMD? What about ARM?
|
| I don't want to use an Apple laptop, but I do want a
| fanless design with M1-type performance and battery life.
| Can you do that with anything from Intel or AMD?
| ndiddy wrote:
| The bigger problem is that Qualcomm and Mediatek are so
| far behind Apple that nobody else makes an ARM chip with
| M1-type performance and battery life
| adrusi wrote:
| No and it's probably not possible to get M1 results out
| of anything remotely modular. The M1's success is largely
| due to vertical integration. You definitely can't get as
| good a laptop using a non-Apple ARM chip (see e.g. the
| Surface X).
| nrp wrote:
| Thanks!
|
| We aren't able to announce anything yet, but we have certainly
| designed for being able to support different CPU platforms, and
| for folks to switch between them by upgrading just the
| mainboard or the mainboard+memory.
| stonecharioteer wrote:
| I would buy this yesterday if you could make a Ryzen 7
| version. I'm not buying Intel shit any longer.
| [deleted]
| winter_blue wrote:
| What is the likelihood of a 4K (like 3840x2400) screen option
| appearing anytime in the near future?
| nrp wrote:
| We don't have any plans we can share yet, but we did design
| the display to be easy to replace by putting it behind a
| magnet-attach bezel and using fasteners to affix it the
| lid.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I'm curious about these responses. They kind of read like
| "Yes, but we don't want to commit to anything right now."
| ncallaway wrote:
| No matter how much you qualify an answer: "yes, but it's
| extremely early in design, we may not be able to find the
| right manufacturers so it may not happen at all, but the
| earliest possible date would be late 2022", there is a
| segment of people that will have an expectation that you
| will deliver the product before 2023 and will be upset if
| you don't.
| heywherelogingo wrote:
| Sounds sensible. They're working on it but wouldn't want
| to have an unexpected obstacle turn into broken promises.
| nrp wrote:
| That is right. I've answered a few questions in these
| comments where the answer is basically: It's technically
| possible, there is a plausible market need, we think it
| is worthwhile to do, and we've designed for it
| architecturally, but we can't commit to a specific date
| because there are always implementation risks, supplier
| risks (especially this year), and a large number of
| programs we have to prioritize between as a small team.
| nitsky wrote:
| Are you considering OLED as well? The Dell XPS has that
| as an option and it is a serious draw, especially for
| coders who stare at a mostly-black screen all day.
| pabs3 wrote:
| I wonder if eink would be feasible.
| robinsoh wrote:
| > I wonder if eink would be feasible.
|
| It would depend on your meaning. If you mean taking a
| device like a Dasung or a Onyx and connecting to the
| laptop and using it as another screen, then sure, that
| should work fine. If you mean taking out the LCD and
| popping in a raw eink panel, then no because they have
| different interfaces. Speaking of which, I don't see any
| clear specification on frame.work for the LCD connector
| or power specs.
|
| I see they wrote on their blog.
|
| " We don't currently have plans for alternate displays,
| but we've designed the display to be easy to replace and
| the display connector on the mainboard to be able to
| support a broader range of possible displays. It's
| unlikely we would go lower resolution in this form
| factor, but I agree there could be an interesting case
| for a display resolution that works at 2x scaling (at the
| tradeoff of battery life). "
|
| But I couldn't easily find on their website the info for
| what type of connector and what type of power is
| delivered to it.
| nrp wrote:
| We use a relatively common 40-pin I-PEX connector. We'll
| be publishing more detail on it as we have time to.
| nrp wrote:
| @pabs3, there is actually a 4:3 13.3" e-ink panel that
| may be possible to fit, but it would be challenging to
| interface.
|
| On OLED, nothing we can share yet, but there are
| certainly benefits to OLED panels.
| mlboss wrote:
| +1 for eink. Maybe something to do with collaboration
| with Dasung.
| geniium wrote:
| I would buy one just to get the eink screen on a laptop!
| rraihansaputra wrote:
| This might be a bit much, but if you offer an e-ink with
| the same interface as the laptop, it would be very cool
| to have an external usb-c case for it. So people can
| choose which display for their "main" monitor, and have
| the other one as an external portable monitor.
| oreilles wrote:
| My god, if you can make an e-ink display work it would be
| an insta-buy for me.
| rraihansaputra wrote:
| It would be really cool if Framework would release an ARM
| platform based motherboard in the future.
| Frameworkscr wrote:
| Guys, everything is modular, please respext the creator by asking
| intelkigent questions and NOT (when will you make a laptop eith x
| in place of y)
|
| (my username is new, i am not associated)
| teddyh wrote:
| No RYF certification, no sale.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| There's lots of opinions around this (looks down at robust
| comment section).
|
| If enough people want the device, they will buy it, and support
| the effort.
|
| Time will tell. I wish them luck. This has been a true labor of
| love.
| codedokode wrote:
| It must be a lot of work to design a laptop. The PCBs look very
| complicated and the components are tiny.
|
| What I don't really like is the price. I think a good laptop
| should cost somewhere around $400. It is not necessary to install
| the most expensive CPUs because they usually have lower
| performance to cost ratio than cheaper models. Webcam,
| fingerprint reader and Wifi 6 are not necessary.
|
| The laptop doesn't have space for a HDD which means that user has
| to buy an expensive SSD storage. 13 inch screen is too small to
| work with code or texts. Also, modern websites have gigantic font
| size so only several lines of text would fit on such a small
| screen.
|
| 64 Gb RAM limit is higher than most of laptops which is good. But
| why not 128 or 256 Gb? It it difficult to add several more
| address lines?
|
| They have written that they would love to hear a feedback on
| keyboards. Well, here you go.
|
| Sadly the keyboard is a Latin-oriented 26-letter model. Russian
| language has 33 letters so I would prefer a 33-letter keyboard
| with two dedicated keys for switching layouts. This means that 9
| new keys should be added. Currently nobody makes such keyboards,
| even Apple. Manufacturers seem to have no interest in adapting
| keyboards to needs of Russian users and instead use inconvenient
| 26-letter western keyboards. Adding more keys for me seems more
| important than unnecessary back light. Also, I think it would be
| better to make up/down keys larger and make
| Home/End/PageUp/PageDown as separate keys. These keys are useful
| for browsing or editing texts. On the other hand, CapsLock is
| useless and can be removed.
|
| The touchpad doesn't have buttons. How does one do a right or
| middle button click?
| shurikdima wrote:
| As someone who lives in Russia, by the end of your second
| paragraph I was thinking to myself "This guy must be Russian".
| and I was right. I swear, Russians bitch about everything. no
| matter how good something is, some Russian will find something
| to complain about.
| codedokode wrote:
| Yes, but I tried also to be useful and suggested the ideas
| for improving the keyboard.
| codedokode wrote:
| Regarding screen, they write:
|
| > A high resolution 3:2 aspect ratio display lets you fit more
| code and creativity on-screen at once.
|
| I doubt one can edit code on a 13 inch screen. Even 15 inch
| screen is too small for IDEs.
| proyb2 wrote:
| I'm not sure how to feel about this warning notice?
|
| "This product can expose you to chemicals including Nickel
| (Metallic), which is known to the State of California to cause
| cancer, and Bisphenol A (BPA), which is known to the State of
| California to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm. For
| more information go to www.P65Warnings.ca.gov"
| dehrmann wrote:
| I see a similar warning on balsamic vinegar, and I've seen it
| at a Starbucks for coffee.
| Karsteski wrote:
| It's like the hazard warnings I've read on the SDS for water
| :)
| mimsee wrote:
| Aren't these types of warnings everywhere in California? So
| much so that nobody takes them seriously as the warnings are
| everywhere.
| sschueller wrote:
| Isn't BPA an issue mostly when it comes to food containers and
| drink holders. Specifically when holding hot items the BPA can
| leach into the food?
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Well, for more information, you can go ot
| https://www.p65warnings.ca.gov
|
| The warnings are required by a 1986 statewide proposition,
| numbered 65, for chemicals posing chancer, birth defect, or
| other reproductive harm, and though they're obligatory only if
| the risk is greater than 1:100,000 over a 70 year lifespan,
| many companies feel it's safer to include the warnings
| regardless to avoid nondisclusure actions.
|
| https://askthescientists.com/qa/california-prop-65-warning/
|
| You can find a similar listing for, say, Apple, Inc.'s
| products, running to 25 pages:
|
| https://www.apple.com/environment/pdf/Apple_Regulated_Substa...
| (PDF)
| dredmorbius wrote:
| s/chancer/cancer/
| 0des wrote:
| >I'm not sure how to feel about this warning notice?
|
| Is that because these warnings are so ubiquitous they've lost
| all meaning?
| Causality1 wrote:
| Shame they don't offer a touchpad with separate buttons. I will
| never understand why people tolerate clickpads. They're just ok
| with not being able to feel where the dividing line between left
| and right clicking is? The way the pointer slightly jiggles every
| time they click doesn't bother them?
| bombcar wrote:
| I can't figure out how to click and drag on them! I can click,
| I can move the pointer, but switching between those seems to
| unclick.
| augusto-moura wrote:
| Well, I'm not sure about repairability of the case, but I
| suppose that after buying you can always buy/hack your own
| build with separate buttons. This is the beauty of full
| repairable hardware
|
| If this is a popular idea you can even monetize pre-built
| touchpads
| stronglikedan wrote:
| One of the pics on the product page indicates that this may be
| able to be opened to lay flat, but I don't see a definitive spec
| regarding how far it opens. Anyone know if this is the case?
| RGamma wrote:
| This needs a trackpoint! Cool stuff.
| [deleted]
| alimbada wrote:
| Shame there's no AMD option.
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| This looks great. My only comment is whether the population for
| whom this is interesting wouldn't be more likely to want Linux? I
| suspect the focus on Windows is misplaced.
|
| I might get one, but I'd want 100% Linux support, notably wrt.
| power management.
|
| EDIT: language
| tele_ski wrote:
| The faq says they'll support main distros, but power management
| with Linux is always not great in my experience, hopefully it
| works out!
| yewenjie wrote:
| Is TLP not enough? I would be curious to know how else people
| manage power on laptops here.
| rodolphoarruda wrote:
| I visited the website just to check which distro they were
| using. I was surprised when I saw the only two "distros"
| available. LOL
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| PoP!_OS would be worth trying, it's built for laptops, could
| probably do power management well on this one.
| Aachen wrote:
| Just one year of warranty? I should hope their hardware lasts
| longer than that on average. Is that actually legal to sell to EU
| customers? The EU minimum on new electronics is 2 years, and the
| Netherlands has an unlimited period so long as you could
| reasonably expect it (which shops then translate as 2 years, but
| if it dies one day after then you aren't necessarily out of
| options).
| nrp wrote:
| We'll be complying with all local requirements around warranty
| as we add additional countries.
|
| We'll be offering extended warranties in the future, but we're
| allowing for time in market for us to be able to price that
| appropriately.
| Aachen wrote:
| Thanks! I read after posting the comment that you currently
| don't ship to the EU in the first place, so that makes sense.
| Great to hear you'll support the longer warranty requirement!
|
| I'm super thrilled to see this design, it's really cool.
| Particularly the adapter thing, I can't believe I've never
| seen or thought of that solution before, it's so much better
| than loose dongles. Personally 13" isn't for me though, but I
| saw the reply to people asking for a larger version elsewhere
| in the thread. For now I've linked it to some friends,
| perhaps they're interested in the 13" version :)
|
| All the best, I would love to get a Framework laptop in the
| future!
| adminscoffee wrote:
| if it produces less waste in the end, i am all for it. it's so
| sad seeing landfills with old electronics in them.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Having been delighted with a 13" e-ink display with roughly
| comparable display resolution, I've got to say "dayuuuuum" on the
| display specs. Aspect ratio, resolution, DPI, and nits all look
| excellent.
|
| (E-Ink differs notably in characteristics, but simply on density,
| 200+ DPI is amazing to look at.)
|
| The rest of the specs and design intent also look impressive.
| Very nicely done.
| gregwebs wrote:
| How is the screen outdoors? Total brightness and glare are
| important factors here. IPS is good.
| nrp wrote:
| I've been using it outdoors in the California sunshine. It goes
| up to 400 nit. It has an anti-glare coating, but it is still a
| normal glossy screen (meaning no matte layer added on top).
| octos4murai wrote:
| Could you please share the exact screen measurements? I
| purchased one but strongly prefer matte screens so I'll be
| trying to look for a matte screen protector that fits.
| edding4500 wrote:
| Oh this is sweet!
|
| Any specs in the case? Is it fully aluminium?
|
| Too Bad I just baught a Thinkpad with the same price tag :(
| nrp wrote:
| It's 50% post-consumer recycled formed and milled aluminum,
| with some internal 30% post-consumer recycled plastic frame
| parts.
| d0100 wrote:
| Is the keyboard also modular? I really dislike chiclet keyboards
| kohlerm wrote:
| The Gizmodo review is odd. Comparing this to an M1 based Apple
| Laptop, with regards to battery performance? You could do that
| for every Intel/AMD laptop and they all will kind of suck. But if
| you do not want Apple or you need Intel/AMD than it is not really
| an argument. They also claim it runs hot, but Verge says
| something different.
| z3ugma wrote:
| Does it look to anyone else like all the screen images on the
| website are pasted on in Photoshop, with some slightly misaligned
| angles that hit prime "uncanny valley"?
| nitsky wrote:
| My framework DIY edition is arriving tomorrow. I'm so excited!
| I'll be loading NixOS on it. :)
| nrp wrote:
| Excellent! Let us know how NixOS goes.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| Absence of Xeon with ECC support is a pity.
| hmm320 wrote:
| If you guys could just happen to make laptops that are relatively
| easy to put hackintosh onto, that would be awesome
| spuz wrote:
| Would it be possible to design an expansion card with 2 USB C
| ports on it? It seems that there would be enough physical room.
| flowerlad wrote:
| The screen resolution, sadly, is only 2256x1504. This is not
| retina. I don't get how new laptops can be sold today with non-
| retina screens. The most common resolution these days is
| 1920x1080.
|
| My current laptop is Samsung ATIV Book 9, which is more than 5
| years old. The 13" screen is 3200x1800. The best screen ever
| made. Possibly the best laptop ever made. The industrial design,
| the backlit keyboard, touchpad, everything is perfect. Sadly even
| Samsung does not make laptops like this anymore.
| lalaithion wrote:
| The 13 inch macbook pro is only 2560x1600. The PPI of this
| device is 200, according to my calculations, so it's not
| totally unacceptable.
| flowerlad wrote:
| I saw a Surface laptop at Costco last weekend, which is also
| 2256 x 1504, and I could see individual pixels. My current
| 5-year-old Samsung has spoiled me, I can't use a laptop where
| individual pixels are discernible. If this tech was available
| 5 years ago (and at a low price) why has the industry gone
| backwards?
| fny wrote:
| Holy crap, I was about to dish out for a 76, but this is the
| exact form factor I'm looking for.
| elcritch wrote:
| With a nice 3:2 screen! The swappable modules look awesome too.
| ghosty141 wrote:
| yea this seems like the perfect modern linux "hacker" laptop.
| notpatio11 wrote:
| Hey Nirav - Awesome project. I want to see this succeed. Can you
| talk a little bit about how you plan to keep this project inline
| with the original vision. I have purchased from/seen so many
| startups start with a great cause and good purpose, but then
| succumb to just simply "too good of offer" to pass up and
| eventually "pivoting" to something that is more lucrative.
|
| I believe that the the reason right to repair isn't adopted by
| more companies is simple... it's way better for the bottom line
| to control everything and increase profits. How do you guys plan
| on dealing with this in the long run, without becoming an Apple
| yourself?
| nrp wrote:
| We're building our business model to align incentives around
| product longevity. We want as many people using our products
| for as long as they possibly can. As a company, we benefit from
| that by continuing to develop new modules and upgrades and
| fostering the developing of compatible parts that can be sold
| through our marketplace. Even after an individual no longer
| needs their product, we want that product's life to extend by
| getting it refurbished or resold to the next consumer who can
| keep using it and participating in the ecosystem.
| throwmanhands wrote:
| Something creepy about the hands in the animations. They look
| like man hands but they have nail polish and are somewhat
| feminine looking. I'm more confused and focused on them than the
| laptop.
| wellpast wrote:
| I wish we could do this with houses.
| vzaliva wrote:
| What about extending "right to repair" to OS software and
| supporting open source OS like Linux or FreeBSD? Current product
| page only lists Microsoft Windows. I do not see an option to
| purchase it without, so Microsoft tax seems to be collected :(
| pabs3 wrote:
| Try the DIY edition, which comes without an OS:
|
| https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition
| nrp wrote:
| The Framework Laptop DIY Edition ships without an OS or OS
| license: https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition
|
| We've been testing with Ubuntu 21.04 and Fedora 34 so far. The
| latest Fedora 34 respins actually have full functionality out
| of the box, including the fingerprint reader:
| https://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/live-respins/
| marilyn2 wrote:
| This is great! Was about to order an XPS or Thinkpad but think
| I'll go with this instead! How many external displays does it
| support? Would I need thunderbolt (would that just be a $9
| adapter???)? I'd like to connect at least 3 external displays (so
| 4 total screens including the laptop). Is that possible? Thanks!
| nrp wrote:
| You can use up to four displays simultaneously, so three
| external displays along with the internal display would work.
| You can connect monitors directly using USB-C (with DisplayPort
| Alt Mode), DisplayPort, or HDMI Expansion Cards, or you can
| connect them through a dock.
| baybal2 wrote:
| No thunderbolt on it.
|
| Thunderbolt is very hard to implement.
| nrp wrote:
| It's currently Schrodinger's Thunderbolt, but it'll collapse
| to an answer once we complete certifications.
| pzo wrote:
| Isn't usb 4.0 pretty much thunderbolt specs wise?
| nrp wrote:
| Thunderbolt 4 is basically a superset of USB4. It's USB4
| with some of the optional features required, and more
| rigorous testing required for certification.
| canadaduane wrote:
| How easy is it to replace the battery--for example, can I carry
| an extra battery around in my backpack and expect to swap it at a
| coffee shop, or is it necessary to bring tools / do it on a
| workbench?
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| I don't feel like buying it this time because I have just bought
| a rather good new laptop recently and don't have money to spare,
| but I really hope this isn't going to be a one-time single-batch
| device project. I will definitely lean towards this (if something
| like Purism won't beat it too hard) for the next laptop I buy.
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