[HN Gopher] The Realism of Our Times: Kim Stanley Robinson on ho...
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The Realism of Our Times: Kim Stanley Robinson on how science
fiction works
Author : tws
Score : 76 points
Date : 2021-07-22 20:36 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.publicbooks.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.publicbooks.org)
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| Seeing this on HN, reading the article and the comments, really
| reminds me of how much I respect KSR.
|
| His 2312 brought me back to reading hard sci-fi after too long
| not really reading much fiction at all for a long time. The ideas
| presented in it reminded me of a sense of wonder at the scope of
| future possibilities that had previously been lost under an ever
| increasing pile of marital, parental, and financial
| responsibility.
|
| The problem I have now is, he somehow seems to write 'em faster
| 'n' I can read 'em (the responsibility pile still exists and is
| as demanding as ever)
|
| Anyway, thanks KSR.
|
| (Mostly off topic, but I'm currently reading Patrick O'Brien's
| Master and Commander, the first in a series of 20 nautical-
| historic fiction novels, and it's incredibly tough going with
| O'Brien's detailed and accurate nautical terminology, of which I
| know nothing - I just loved the movie. A challenging read - and
| I've covered The Mars Trilogy and some lighter Pynchon).
| Freak_NL wrote:
| What a coincidence. I've just finished David Brin's _Existence_
| (2012). The edition I have has a few pages of 2312 at the end
| as a form of 'if you liked this, you might like...'
| advertising. I guess I should look into this book.
| dkarl wrote:
| Do you have A Sea of Words, the lexicon for reading O'Brian's
| novels? I highly recommend having it by your side while you
| read. It helps a lot.
| everyone wrote:
| Can ye recommend any novels / authors that are as hard sci-fi as
| KSR or Arthur C Clarke?
| adrianN wrote:
| I enjoyed Permutation City by Greg Egan and the Zones of
| Thought books by Vernor Vinge.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| Vernor Vinge is so good, shame he dropped it in Rainbows End.
| arethuza wrote:
| I think _Rainbows End_ is excellent. However, I was
| disappointed with _The Children of the Sky_.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| It had an interesting take on industrialization with a
| hivemind though. Manchester capitalism is not really bad
| if you are borg, after all its just a hand assigned to
| boredom.
|
| Rainbows End explored a society which went full AR, but
| in my opinion most of the shots if fired missed the
| target.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Even so, I would love recommendations that take full AR
| as seriously.
| renke1 wrote:
| * Seveneves (I haven't read much else from Neal Stephenson, but
| I've heard good things)
|
| * Children of Time / Children of Ruin (both really good)
|
| * Remembrance of Earth's Past (even the fan fiction one is
| good)
|
| * A lot of stuff from Alastair Reynolds (House of Suns being my
| favorite)
|
| * Classics like Tau Zero, The Forever War etc.
|
| * A Deepness in the Sky / A Fire Upon the Deep
|
| Although not all of these are strictly considered hard scifi, I
| guess.
|
| Btw, I love it when somebody asks this question every now and
| then on HN. Lots of stuff for one's (ever growing) reading
| list.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Neal Stephenson's earlier work has "more soul" - Snow Crash /
| Diamond Age actually has characters you care about and like,
| his later novels get increasingly more abstract, though even
| better in the technical sense. I think the only character I
| remember from Seveneves is the cannibal leader, that's it.
|
| "A Deepness in the Sky" was REALLY good. The Forever War was
| good for the concept.
|
| In short, yours looks like a great list I will come back to,
| thank you.
|
| However, I do strongly dislike Remembrance of Earth's Past /
| The Three Body Problem - it's vastly overrated in my opinion
| and the characters make no sense. The best part of it was the
| intro to the first book which gave an interesting glimpse at
| history.
| seer wrote:
| Remembrance of Earth's past had some of the weakest
| protagonists in a book I've read. It also has this weird
| thing where characters plan for things and that just ...
| happens. It was strange seeing book arching plans go
| without a hitch.
|
| But I think it was incredibly interesting for me to see the
| Asian perspective on the west. I've read it more as an
| allegory of the different peoples of the world, shown from
| a perspective totally different than my own.
|
| I do think though that you have to be a bit of a hard sci-
| fi fan to finish it, but the science-y ideas are very
| interesting. I think it changed how I view the vast cosmos,
| at least a little bit.
| arethuza wrote:
| I really couldn't get into Snow Crash and I didn't finish
| Diamond Age but I _love_ everything from Cryptonomicon
| forward.
|
| Jack Shaftoe is one of my favourite fictional characters!
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| I know what you are talking about, despite being on the
| opposite end of that spectrum. Snow Crash / Diamond Age
| are cyberpunk/post-cyberpunk ala Gibson and completely
| different from Stephenson's other books.
|
| I couldn't even get through Cryptonomicon, and Jack
| Shaftoe did not strike me as a believable genius, nor his
| story. Anathem kind of strafed the line - it had SOME
| character development, and SOME action, but was mainly
| world-building / intellectual exploration. Stephenson's
| other books fall too far on that spectrum for me.
| arethuza wrote:
| Are you by any chance referring to "Bobby" Shaftoe the
| WW2 Marine Raider or his ancestor King of the Vagabonds,
| L'Emmerdeur, Half-Cocked Jack, Quicksilver, Ali Zaybak,
| Sword of Divine Fire, Jack the Coiner...
| the__alchemist wrote:
| This gentleman, by whatever named you call him, is
| perhaps my favorite Stephenson character. I hated him
| after the first book... it felt too difficult to related
| to his decisions and mistakes, but loved him by the end.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| I can't remember a single character from Anathem, but its
| world and some of the scenes are burned into my
| connectome.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| I agree, re The Three Body Problem. It's a fun story, but
| not hard sci-fi in the way Stephenson etc are. I also
| enjoyed the dive into mid-century communist China - it was
| a jarring, immersive journey into living-memory history I
| hadn't learned about before.
|
| I think Diamond Age was my favorite overall Stephenson
| story in terms of both story and neat scifi concepts, but
| all of them were enjoyable. I agree on Seveneves chars all
| being forgettable. Dodge (The most recent one) had perhaps
| the dullest start, but I really liked the Dodge, Corvis,
| and Daisy characters.
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| +1 for Seveneves. I found it so engrossing that just thinking
| about it now I can picture the shapes of that chain in
| zero-G, and the unexpectedly long-lasting hellscape
| consequences of the very early reveal. The CB radio...
| jsymolon wrote:
| eh, 1st 1/2 great. 2nd half ... really falls apart
| yongjik wrote:
| Also, the author has an inexplicable obsession with
| chains moving in free space. (Okay, I get it, it's cool
| physics, but how is it any more practical than using a
| mega-catapult as an airport?)
| tartuffe78 wrote:
| Agreed, the first half was semi-realistic hard science
| fiction, the second half felt more like fantasy almost.
| It wasn't bad, but such a huge shift from the first half.
| totoglazer wrote:
| Strong agree. Luckily you can just stop reading at the
| end of part 1 and it's still a very satisfying book.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| Yeah, they're really 2 different books.
|
| BUT, I enjoyed the 2nd half as well. The 1st book is
| already obsolete technologically in some ways (launch
| technology has progressed a lot in the last 5 years)[0],
| although very interesting. Which is one reason I like the
| 2nd part in that it extrapolates from the
| sociocultural/technological developments of the first
| book to see what the ultimate consequences could be.
|
| The book is also a sharp commentary on the
| destructiveness of social media...
|
| [0]side note: the speed of progress that SpaceX is
| achieving with Starship in Boca Chica is comparable to a
| pace you'd want in the first book... They're going so
| fast in Boca Chica, as if the Moon fell apart and they
| only have a couple years left before the Hard Rain to
| make humanity a multiplanetary species...
| seer wrote:
| To be honest I think I really like "long jumps in time".
| It's like the author builds up a world that you
| understand and care about, and then it becomes a backdrop
| of this new world, which adds another layer of
| complexity. There are parallels to notice and explore,
| "how things might turn out" tales, etc.
|
| The one other author I've seen pull it off was Brandon
| Sanderson in his Mistborn trilogy, though he does it 2
| times (once for each book) where the previous one becomes
| "the legends" for the next one, with all the
| misunderstandings that this usually entails.
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| I hated Seveneves. The first part was grim and unremitting
| and almost everyone died. It left me feeling kind of
| depressed, and unwilling to put up with what seemed to be a
| self-indulgent second part. Plus the premise was so unlikely
| and the ending felt unsatisfactory. I should have known:
| Stephenson doesn't really do endings.
| jefurii wrote:
| The "Stephenson doesn't do endings" meme again. Sigh. Yes,
| the novel ends and it's obvious that the characters' lives
| keep going. Lots of authors do that. Real life often
| doesn't have endings or clear resolutions.
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| I wasn't aware that it was a meme. My comment was based
| on my own observations from reading a number of his
| books.
|
| > Yes, the novel ends and it's obvious that the
| characters' lives keep going. Lots of authors do that.
| Real life often doesn't have endings or clear
| resolutions.
|
| The characters lives _do_ end with the end of the book
| (unless there 's a sequel). You can certainly imagine how
| their lives might proceed, but a satisfactory ending
| doesn't preclude that either. Drawing together the
| elements of a story, completing the arcs, creating some
| kind of resolution: these are part of the storytellers
| craft.
|
| With Seveneves I thought he just ran out of steam. It
| felt like leaving a film ten minutes before the end and
| stumbling out into the daylight. Pretty dissatisfying at
| the end of a long book.
| kryptn wrote:
| I really like Dragon's Egg by Robert L Forward, and its sequel
| as well.
| sweetheart wrote:
| I didn't know there was a sequel! How exciting.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Starquake. It's not as good as Dragon's Egg in my opinion,
| and seems much more focused on development of interesting
| characters. That's not a bad thing, mind you.
| sbierwagen wrote:
| The Martian by Andy Weir, if you haven't seen the movie yet. If
| you have, he's had another similar novel out recently, Hail
| Mary.
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| Andy Weir also published Artemis in between The Martian and
| Project Hail Mary.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| In addition to the existing ones (I'll throw another vote
| towards any Neal Stephenson or Andy Weir novel):
|
| Contact by Carl Sagan. It's a nice tale about a passionate SETI
| scientist, by an author known more commonly for nonfiction and
| TV.
| seer wrote:
| Apart from the great suggestions (Vernor Vinge fan for sure) I
| think one would I would recommend would be the "Remembrance of
| Earth's Past" (a.k.a three body problem). It presented
| plausible hard sci-fi bits, while the human aspect was
| incredibly weird, especially from a western perspective.
| Definitely opened my eyes to a lot of how Chinese people
| probably feel about their place in the world and their legacy.
|
| But the scope of the series is just breathtaking, I don't think
| I've read anything that spanned as much in space or time, and
| made it believable too, highly recommended.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Baxter, the manifold trilogy.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| Beyond what other people list here:
|
| - Hugh Howey. His Silo series is worth a read. He published it
| in some episodic form. However, I'd recommend just getting the
| whole thing. Beacon 23 is a bit shorter and also nice.
|
| - Ramez Naam. His nexus series is a decent series. Not the best
| written but I enjoyed it.
|
| - James S.A. Corey, the expanse series. Makes you appreciate
| the tv series more.
|
| - Authors others already mentioned: Neal Stephenson & Peter
| Watts.
|
| Other authors that go more in the direction of space opera: Iam
| M. Banks, Ernest Cline, John Scalzi, Ann Lecky, Richard K.
| Morgan (Altered Carbon).
| hyperpallium2 wrote:
| Larry Niven. His older stuff: _Ringworld_. and all his short-
| story collections, especially _Neutron Star_.
|
| He also did a scifi take on magic, in _The Magic Goes Away_.
|
| I see Vinor Vinge's AFUTD and ADITS as the closest thing to
| Niven.
| V-2 wrote:
| Some works of Stanislaw Lem should fall into that category -
| such as my favourite "His Master's Voice".
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Not the The Fifth Season by N. K. Jemisin - recommending it is
| when the Nebula awards became a joke.
|
| Other than that, it used to be a trusted resource:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebula_Award_for_Best_Novel
| jayesh-bhoot wrote:
| Flood; Ark; and Evolution from Stephen Baxter will always stay
| with me.
| Herodotus38 wrote:
| Peter Watts has a good biology background so his books are
| pretty accurate when it comes to sci-fi advances with biology.
| Definitely better than most authors who usually focus more on
| physics/engineering.
|
| I liked "Blindsight" and "The Freeze-Frame Revolution"
|
| I would also appreciate any recommendations for hard sci-fi
| authors with a biology focus, I'm sure there are many more I
| don't know.
| kryptn wrote:
| I really enjoyed Blindsight, I'll have to check out your
| other suggestion. Thanks!
| arethuza wrote:
| Ken MacLeod has a zoology degree - which is presumably where
| names like "The Stone Canal" came from...
|
| I like most of his novels, particularly "Learning the World"
| - which I guess is a reverse first contact novel.
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| Blindsight was great, Echopraxia not as good, but I still
| enjoyed it. I'll be searching out "The Freeze-Frame
| Revolution" for sure, thanks.
|
| Hard sci-fi / biology crossover:
| https://www.gregegan.net/TERANESIA/TERANESIA.html
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| https://www.tor.com/2014/07/29/the-colonel-peter-watts/
| er4hn wrote:
| Alastair Reynolds, especially his Revelation Space trilogy are
| great hard sci Fi novels. He's a former astrophysicist so he
| knows the hard limits.
|
| I find most of his works to be good musings on humanity with a
| bit of alien horror.
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| Quarantine by Greg Egan:
| https://www.gregegan.net/QUARANTINE/Quarantine.html
|
| Upon re-reading your question, I don't think this
| recommendation exactly fits, but, damn, it's a good book anyway
| and Neal Stephenson doesn't do things by halves: Interface by
| Neal Stephenson (under a pseudonym and in conjunction with
| another author also using a pseudonym). This book only becomes
| more relevant with each presidential campaign:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interface_(novel)
| JadeNB wrote:
| Greg Egan in general is a solid recommendation for diamond-
| hard sci-fi; I actually think _Quarantine_ is one of the
| weakest in this respect, though it 's a fantastic book. Who
| else would think to write a series of books
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Egan#Orthogonal_trilogy)
| about what would happen if you flipped a sign in the
| Lorentzian metric?
| fouc wrote:
| Accelerando by Charles Stross, The Diamond Age by Neal
| Stephenson, Diaspora by Greg Egan, Distraction by Bruce
| Sterling
| elygre wrote:
| I just read Diaspora, and find it far from hard sci-fi.
|
| The Wikipedia page says "Egan invents several new theories of
| physics", and that to me is not hard sci-fi.
| fouc wrote:
| I think the best hard sci-fi can include cutting edge
| theories or even ideas that the author themselves are
| proposing, based on a reasonable understanding of the
| existing science.
|
| At the time many of Greg Egan's early books from the
| 90s/00s were written, there were a lot more competing ideas
| or theories in quantum mechanics compared to now. In his
| books he basically explores some of those ideas, and pushes
| the boundaries.
|
| The best sci-fi to me inspire future scientists or
| engineers to explore novel approaches.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| Sorry, but Accelerando is horrible. I recommend Singularity
| Sky, the weird one, not watered down for the mainstream. The
| characters are flat, but the weirdness on route, is captured
| much better.
| fouc wrote:
| I have a soft spot for Accelerando because it was my first
| encounter with the exo-cortex (or perhaps more accurately
| called cybernetics) concept, aka computers as an external
| brain. Also it was my first encounter with the concept of
| smart contracts, laws & corporations run purely as code.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Depends what you mean by 'hard'.
|
| Anything by Greg Egan is probably going to be the hardest sci-
| fi you've ever read. Dude wrote a book where he considered the
| ramifications of a universe built on a positive-definite
| Riemannian metric, and another one where the universe has 2
| time dimensions.
|
| Robert L. Forward's Dragon's Egg explores what life might look
| like if it evolved on a neutron star.
|
| Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Time and Children of Ruin
| explore the evolution of other earth species if they were given
| a kick towards sapience.
|
| Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep is half space adventure
| (not very hard) and half an exploration of a lifeform which
| only achieves sapience in small groups. A Deepness in the Sky
| is generally harder and explores a lot of things, including the
| power of focused human attention, the difficulty of galactic
| scale civilization, and alien life evolved in a star system
| where the star periodically dims.
|
| Steven Baxter and Clarke collaborated on The Light of Other
| Days, which explores the technical and sociological
| consequences of a device which allows you to see the past.
|
| With a broad interpretation of 'hard' I can highly recommend
| Ursula Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness and The
| Dispossessed, which have soft science but hard humanity.
|
| Similarly The Long Earth series, a collaboration between
| Pratchett and Baxter, where it seems Baxter handles the
| sociological and technological consequences of the science
| while Pratchett handles the characters and philosophy.
|
| Asimov's I, Robot is an exploration of what happens when you
| try to constrain intelligence with rules.
|
| Asimov's Foundation Trilogy gets a lot of hype, but it isn't
| very hard and I also found it utterly mediocre. Instead I
| recommend The God's Themselves, which is so good it's like
| Asimov was channeling a much better writer to get his ideas
| down. It explores the limited interaction of our universe with
| one that has slightly different physical properties.
|
| Also perhaps stretching the definition of 'hard', but I want to
| recommend it because it's relatively unknown, is Leonard
| Richardson's Constellation Games, in which an incredibly
| advanced multi-species anarchic alien civilization makes first
| contact with humanity, and the protagonist really just wants to
| play their video games. It's actually harder sci-fi than it
| sounds.
| bsenftner wrote:
| I strongly recommend Greg Bear. His first novel "Blood Music"
| is a unique take on an AI out of control, and he continues with
| a series independent of novels which all take place in a
| unified "future history". One of my favorite aspects of his
| future history is the combination of the bio-genetic, cosmetic
| surgery, and pop media artist industries to create
| transhumanist pop media artists, and spawning a transhumanist
| youth movement and a counter transhumanist political movement,
| with all the human chaos that would result wonderfully
| illustrated by his prose.
| kcartlidge wrote:
| Definitely Greg Bear.
|
| When I started reading grown-up SF decades ago it was with
| Bear, Bova, Niven, Pournelle, and the like. Back then Eon,
| Blood Music, and Ringworld (for example) were mind-blowingly
| vast concepts.
|
| As an aside (and purely because it's probably my turn for
| some hefty downvotes) I'd definitely agree with the comment
| elsewhere in this thread about the Foundation books being
| overrated. Almost unreadably dull and feeling more like any
| concept of 'plot' is just a carrier for a couple of mediocre
| ideas.
| bsenftner wrote:
| Agree on the Foundation criticism. From what I've seen of
| the Apple series based on it, it's gonna be a politically
| correct mess.
| e12e wrote:
| Many good suggestions here - I definitely recommend to check
| out Vernor Vinge. I've heard a lot of praise for The Expanse
| series (James S. A. Corey / pen name for Daniel Abraham and Ty
| Franck) - but I've only seen the TV series, not read the books.
| e12e wrote:
| I would kind of consider the stand alone books Black
| Man/Thirteen, Thin Air (two books, same universe) and the
| Altered Carbon trilogy by Richard Morgan "hard" sci-fi to an
| extent - and be aware that the TV series, while entertaining,
| butchered much of the political content in the books.
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| If you like the "Takeshi Kovacs / Altered Carbon" trilogy,
| you'll almost definitely like the "Greg Mandel / Event
| Horizon" trilogy by Peter F. Hamilton.
|
| And they're not bible sized tomes like some of PFH's later
| space operas (some of which I own, but am too intimidated
| by their size to have considered starting the journey).
| e12e wrote:
| True, I was considering mentioning Hamilton, but it's
| been so long since I read those books - so wasn't quite
| sure if I'd call them hard sci-fi or not :)
| pp19dd wrote:
| Hard sci fi is hard to define for me personally. But, Children
| of Time by Adrian Czajkowski is worth a look, and maybe Saturn
| Run by Ctein and John Sanford.
| jeffwass wrote:
| Just out of curiosity where are you located?
|
| Here in the UK his name is spelled "Adrian Tchaikovsky", as
| well as his account on Twitter (@aptshadow), where aside from
| writing novels he's insanely productive creating digital
| artwork (often including insect characters).
| pp19dd wrote:
| My apologies, did not mean to rename the man. I'm an
| ignorant hick from USA. Though to be fair I think that's
| his legal name.
| jeffwass wrote:
| No probs, I was just curious if that's how it was spelled
| elsewhere.
| Gravityloss wrote:
| Does he only read things written originally in English?
| jnsie wrote:
| Mars Trilogy changed how I look at the world, nation states and
| the future. Love KSR!
| yesenadam wrote:
| > Mars Trilogy changed how I look at the world, nation states
| and the future.
|
| In what way? (if that's practical/possible to answer)
| jefurii wrote:
| He introduced me to the idea of worker cooperatives
| (businesses/organizations owned and run by the workers
| themselves) and I wish I could like in a world where they
| were more normal.
| maxhille wrote:
| For me while reading it was the first time I thought "hey
| nations are purely social/political constructs and not set
| into stone at all". Sounds trivial but that book changed my
| perspective on that matter.
|
| I suppose that the cultural background (Old World here) might
| play a role here - I can imagine an American thinking "of
| course you can just get rid of the people exploiting your
| kind, we did that before already".
| AltonWells wrote:
| He proposes a novel way of thinking about the
| economy,ecology,and political governance nicely bundled in a
| meta epic about terraforming Mars.
| hiidrew wrote:
| I recently listened to KSR on Exponential View, Ministry of the
| Future has an intriguing premise and hope to read that soon.
|
| Recently began a fiction kick after starting my full-time job for
| the first time, nice way to break screen-time instead of gaming.
| There's something nice about visualizing worlds instead of seeing
| worlds built by someone else.
|
| Currently reading the first Dune book and love it. Reminds me of
| GOT on Mars.
| jpm_sd wrote:
| Really loved the Mars trilogy when I was a teenager. The clunky
| character development and invented politics haven't aged super
| well, but the stories are still interesting. I also enjoyed The
| Memory of Whiteness and The Years of Rice and Salt.
|
| More recently I tried reading Aurora (2015), but the book is a
| downer and a slog. Not recommended. Didn't finish it.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_(novel)
| jefurii wrote:
| I came across Memory of Whiteness while taking my college music
| theory classes. It's very fantastical but I loved how he
| connected various compositional techniques with physical
| processes. It's a very underrated book.
| arethuza wrote:
| Isn't the narrative of Aurora slightly odd (at least at first)
| because of who the narrator is and how the narrator develops
| over time?
|
| I really liked it.
| Arrath wrote:
| Yup! That's part of what intrigued me so much about it.
| Arrath wrote:
| I actually really enjoyed Aurora and have been through it three
| times. It is a bit of a downer, sure. It felt quite fresh to me
| though, as I took it as a 'coming of age' story, but for the
| ship's AI.
| anyonecancode wrote:
| Currently reading Ministry for the Future, which in some ways
| is a very optimistic book, but is still quite grim. Also, I'm
| thinking perhaps next time I'm tempted to read a book with
| climate change as the subject, I'll wait until winter to do it,
| rather than in the summer when the described scenes are a bit
| too easy to imagine by simply stepping outside.
|
| Read the mars trilogy and Rice and Salt as well. I like his
| optimism in humans' ability to actually make radical political
| change. I suppose this is what I mean by his being both
| optimistic and grim -- severe outcomes aren't avoided in his
| books, but in the end societies do change before the absolute
| worst comes to pass. A "hard optimism" I suppose, which I find
| valuable.
| infoseek12 wrote:
| I like Kim Stanley Robinson and Ministry for the Future has
| some interesting ideas but it reads a bit like a white paper
| disguised as a novel.
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| Human history is filled with change, it's the only constant.
|
| Unfortunately we don't see that when we're in the centre of
| the storm.
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(page generated 2021-07-23 23:03 UTC)