[HN Gopher] Artists, shrug off that imposter syndrome - the tech...
___________________________________________________________________
Artists, shrug off that imposter syndrome - the tech world needs
you
Author : dfeusse
Score : 99 points
Date : 2021-07-22 15:03 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (magicbell.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (magicbell.com)
| runawaybottle wrote:
| The implications of the article suggest that there is a notion of
| 'real art'. Our graphic designers are already real artists, so
| are our programmers.
|
| So the guys and girls that know how to physically paint are _real
| artists_ , and we need them show us the way? I think not.
| honie wrote:
| I'm not sure what it is, but something about the colour palette
| used in the examples shown feels a bit off to my untrained eyes.
|
| Is there actually a job market for _pure_ UI designers? I often
| see UI as only a small part of job description that involves
| other non-art-related technical skills.
|
| It feels like the market is already saturated with people who can
| do UI design _and_ a lot more (or the other way around for that
| matter). I am glad that the author managed to find internship as
| a UI designer and I 'm aware that the author plans "to extend
| into UX", but the emphasis on UI design as a career change for
| "traditional" artists sounds... dangerous.
|
| Edit: removed confusing parenthetical.
| zinglersen wrote:
| There's definitely a market for UI designers (as well as visual
| designers).
|
| "UI designer" as a job title basically means you as a designer
| have clear area of responsibility; the user interface. You find
| these role in larger companies because when you reach a certain
| scale you need to build design systems, digital and/or print
| style guides, asset frameworks, micro animations, etc.
|
| Startups typically hire hybrid designers with a mix of UI and
| UX skills. In Scandinavia these roles are often called "UI/UX
| designers" and in US, where the design culture is more mature,
| it's sometimes called a "Product designer" and has a different
| set of responsibilities.
|
| So the short answer is 'yes' but it depends on a lot of things
| like the size, maturity, and design org. within the company.
| cryptica wrote:
| Impostor syndrome is a prerequisite for getting a job these days.
| Companies only want to hire people who feel like frauds and
| investors like to invest in people who feel like fraud.
|
| Since companies can't actually advertise that they're looking to
| hire fraudsters, they have to settle for the next closest thing:
| People who feel like frauds.
| wyre wrote:
| Source?
| cryptica wrote:
| Your own eyes and your brain.
| the_cat_kittles wrote:
| art is often a political choice to prioritize something above
| money. so its entirely antithetical to lots of people to do what
| your suggesting. though there's always the urge to sell out to
| some degree. but this kinda shit comes off like a religious
| person telling you to join their religion. "tech" in its modern
| conception is more about money than anything, which often results
| in extremely lame stuff. you feel sorry for artists who are poor,
| but they might feel sorry for you because what you do is so lame.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| I personally would rather that all artists stay far, far away
| from UI design _forever_ , for the simple reason that they will
| never allow me to customize anything. It's bad enough we're stuck
| with the current bespoke "light" and "dark" modes in UIs that
| were fully customizable _in the fucking longlongago of the
| goddamned 90s_. Not to mention their propensity for form over
| function.
|
| No thanks. Kindly fuck off.
| sergiomattei wrote:
| Way to completely reduce an industry.
| antattack wrote:
| Artists I know don't want to be shacked by corporate structures
| rather than thinking that they are not smart/capable enough.
| armchairhacker wrote:
| I think people underestimate how UI aesthetics actually improve
| user experience.
|
| I remember when I was younger it was a lot easier to be more
| productive and creative with Pages, Numbers, Keynote than their
| competitors (this was when they were still skeuomorphic). The
| pretty UI genuinely motivated and inspired me, to an extent that
| I actually noticed. I really believe it helped start projects
| easier and work on them longer.
|
| Still, you should _never_ have flashiness sacrifice usability.
| Pages was a good example because Apple understood usability. I'm
| not arguing for excess animations, ugly contrasts, etc.
|
| In fact, plenty of minimalist design _is_ pretty while also being
| usable. Google Docs /Slides/Sheets in the browser, for example,
| are actually well designed. Material design without the shadows
| would still have all the usability with less flare, but nobody
| would build their website off of that. I think a lot of graphic
| designers who make minimalist designs, strive to make them pretty
| without even realizing
| arcticbull wrote:
| Square is one of my favorite examples. Square was always
| beautiful and elegant (if skeuomorphic, boy am I glad that
| trend is over - remember when iCal looked like "an ugly wild
| west" [1])
|
| Compare Square to a classic point of sale device. Night and
| day. It really opened up payment acceptance in a way that I
| don't think it could have without the aesthetic/UI/UX.
|
| Design and usability matter!
|
| [1] https://gizmodo.com/ugh-god-why-is-apple-making-
| everything-l...
| spython wrote:
| Material design is like the design of a typical hotel room. It
| aims to accommodate everyone. It aims to be a temporary home
| for everyone and a permanent home for no-one. Hardly anyone
| would actively choose to make such a clinical, impersonal,
| unopinionated environment their home.
|
| That's what happened with user interfaces when software ate the
| world - once the UI designers tried to reach everyone, be the
| place for everyone, the _hotel room design_ took over. The call
| to bring artistic view into designing interfaces only makes
| sense if you are brave enough or lucky enough to allow your
| product to be opinionated, to not be for everyone.
|
| As a trained artist in the technology field, actively working
| on speculative HCI designs, I don't often see companies that
| are open to opinionated designs. Most expect the designer to
| produce decoration, whereas the actual strength of a good
| designer lies in creating a space, a choreography, an
| interaction that fits the needs of the customer exactly right.
| That solves the actual, human need in a way that is true to the
| medium.
|
| don't turn your project into a hotel room, I beg you!
| nexuist wrote:
| I really enjoyed this comment. I wish new software was
| _weird_ , I want software that looks _bizarre_ , stuff that
| is almost _nonsensical_ until you try to use it and realize
| it makes you _feel good._ Everything feels the same today
| because of hotel room design.
| stemlord wrote:
| I think the hotel room design is what's weird, as opposed
| to unique, specific designs. The former being the result of
| scaled-up data/market-driven decision making producing
| something no one person asked for... that's what's truly
| bizarre
| ace2358 wrote:
| Interestingly enough, this is one of the aspects of being a
| music producer I enjoy! Every plug-in feels like it's
| designed to be inspire you. Let's be honest, an EQ plugin
| is super basic in what it does to the sound yet we are
| blessed with dozens of different designs.
|
| It's the same with any other effect or instrument! The
| designer's get to have a field day!
|
| It's my biggest criticism of Ableton - they're built in
| modules (not really plugins) are as bland as the whole DAW
| and don't act like 3rd party plugins.
| trenning wrote:
| I agree with you and the other person who replied. I also see
| how UIs that have become hotel-room-like are similar to auto
| design. They're converging on a mean that is efficient which
| limits uniqueness.
|
| I feel like there's a place for being unique and place for
| being an efficient hotel.
|
| Social media sites, ex forums used to have this uniqueness,
| now they're consolidated hotels for efficiency (not
| necessarily user friendly efficiency unfortunately).
|
| This site is also a good example of being purposefully
| painful and bland even at the cost of hostility towards
| impaired users, but I guess it's unique in that way.
| zinglersen wrote:
| Another example of this is the investment app Robinhood. They
| make it so easy for beginners to start investing because they
| have removed all the cutter from their UI and UX - granted some
| would argue that it's too simple for the user's own good.
| [deleted]
| itronitron wrote:
| UI design is inherently a waste of time for artists.
| whateveracct wrote:
| Tech is, quite frankly, a waste of time for everyone. That's
| why they pay you so much to turn your life into gigantic market
| caps.
| saiojd wrote:
| Why are you on a tech site if you think tech is a waste of
| time?
| whateveracct wrote:
| I like technology but dislike tech. Plenty of good
| technical discussions on here.
|
| I'm in tech because they pay me big bucks to basically do
| nothing, and as I rise the ranks, I can do even less and
| get paid more. Can't pass on a gravy train.
| saiojd wrote:
| Just curious, do you mean that you dislike what the big
| corpos happen to be doing, or do you mean "I dislike it
| all, I just happen to like learning the stuff + it pays".
| (I'm not sure I see the difference between "technology"
| and "tech")
| pb7 wrote:
| Tech pays a lot because there's a lot of money in tech. Most
| people in tech are underpaid relative to the value generated,
| in part because a lot of people enjoy working in tech.
| whateveracct wrote:
| Most tech jobs pretty much demand your entire life's focus.
| Partially due to the mental demands, partially due to
| office culture.
|
| Luckily with remote work, it's becoming easier to do
| 10-20hrs for the same pay 40-60 (accounting for commute and
| other incidental costs) used to get. So I can finally use
| my technical skills to benefit myself way more than what
| I'm selling to my employer for the first time in many
| years. In a way, this transition to remote work is making
| it so I can clandestinely get a BigCo to finance my
| longterm career & personal software dreams ;)
| pb7 wrote:
| >it's becoming easier to do 10-20hrs for the same pay
| 40-60
|
| For what it's worth, I did exactly this for years even in
| the office. But I agree, remote makes this way easier for
| everyone.
| illumanaughty wrote:
| Seems like a rather broad statement. As an artist in UI design
| I disagree and think it's a fantastic meeting point of artistry
| and engineering.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I think the point is that UI design isn't really art. If
| you're interested in both, then great! But they're about as
| similar as fiction and non-fiction writing.
| itronitron wrote:
| I see the main difference being that good UI design should
| be invisible (i.e. less is more, take away everything
| superfluous) whereas Art is all about helping people to see
| things.
| bryik wrote:
| > UI design isn't really art
|
| Who are you to say what is and is not art?
| shadowlight wrote:
| I have little respect for "artists" who do UI because the
| job requires little skill.
|
| Sites and exposes like the parent of this entire thread
| serve to inflate the worth of people who do this stuff.
|
| Painting the mona lisa is talent. Arranging text and
| pictures with flat colored geometric elements is NOT
| talent.
|
| The idea that the still life painting is even comparable
| to some website design is laughable. It takes a lot of
| skill to be able to create that painting, it takes almost
| no skill to devise the layout to that site.
| PhasmaFelis wrote:
| > I have little respect for "artists" who do UI because
| the job requires little skill.
|
| It requires little skill to do it _badly_ , and it's easy
| to get away with doing it badly. That's not the same
| thing.
|
| This is like people who read some cheesy superhero comics
| and declare that comics can't be real literature.
| nicoburns wrote:
| I mean sure if you want it to be art then it can be. But
| that's not typically its primary purpose. And the skills
| required to make a UI good for its primary purpose
| (usable, easy to understand, etc) are quite different
| from those required to make good art.
|
| In other words, a UI as an artifact might be art. But UI
| design as process is different to the creation of art as
| a process. You _could_ do both, but they 're mostly
| orthogonal.
| egypturnash wrote:
| This article title is kind of hilarious given that yesterday I
| learnt that Twitter is currently de-emphasizing the display of
| tweets with links to Patreon in them, thus making it harder for
| artists to grow their financial support.
|
| The tech world will happily use our work to keep people scrolling
| their endless ad spigots, but the minute we ask people to leave
| and give some money to _us_? Nothing.
|
| So come join the tech world, artists! Use your hard-won mastery
| of color, design, and form to help make a nice frame for some
| Corporate Memphis clip-art we got off a stock site! It'll be
| great.
| pkdpic_y9k wrote:
| Do you have a link to an article on that? Would love to check
| it out.
| egypturnash wrote:
| Just a twitter link:
| https://twitter.com/ThornwolfArt/status/1417952808813301764
| Dumblydorr wrote:
| As an amateur painter and professional coder, I must say art and
| design are key to even my statistical analysis. The issue is the
| human reader of your product. You want to make their experience
| easy and pleasant, even if it's reading numerical analyses. Thus,
| I take very boring looking data and turn it into something that's
| possible to engage with easily. That's composition, design,
| detail oriented execution, many crossovers between various
| creative fields.
| pm90 wrote:
| Absolutely agree with this. I love that most mainstream
| monitoring tools today aren't just "graphs" but they keep in
| mind contrasting/complementing color codes to make it easy to
| read and spot changes that may be concerning.
|
| If I'm an engineer operating services I probably have to stare
| at dashboards and graphs a lot; making them pretty/easy to read
| makes my life just a little bit easier and I'm grateful for
| that.
| azinman2 wrote:
| So she lower the contrast and then gave a component a shadow
| where as none of the others have any 3D effect and are completely
| flat? It feels widely inconsistent to me and the message doesn't
| hit right with me. There are people who train in graphic design
| that eventually become UI/YX designers... which isn't to say an
| artist couldn't go that route, but this doesn't seem like a
| particularly compelling example.
| Xevi wrote:
| As a frontend dev I would probably stick to the original design
| if presented with the new one. The new one is inconsistent and
| looks slightly outdated. Not saying that the original design is
| perfect though, or that the new one is crap.
|
| On top of that, it has some other weird stuff going on, which
| might be beside the point, but it still caught my attention.
| For example, why is every input field now a dropdown? Are you
| really going to select colors and pixels in a dropdown? It just
| makes it feel sloppy.
| gatkinso wrote:
| Does this person even know any actual artists? Many of them would
| rather die than work in tech.
| bobthechef wrote:
| > Many of them would rather die than work in tech.
|
| At least until they need to pay the bills.
| gatkinso wrote:
| there are many ways to make a living
| Matticus_Rex wrote:
| Apparently many of them would rather not pay the bills
| quacked wrote:
| I don't know why you're being downvoted, I know at least 15
| people who got some kind of art degree, they pefer to work
| brutal late-night shifts at a pizza shop or deliver
| food/drive Uber than take a spreadsheet jockey temp job,
| even if it pays 3x as much.
| Matticus_Rex wrote:
| My experience is similar. I know a few who eventually
| have made the jump, especially once they saw someone
| close to them do it, but for the most part they've
| largely been unwilling to do anything that seems
| permanent/career-ish that isn't what they dreamed of. I
| get it and sympathize, to a point, but....
| [deleted]
| coffeefirst wrote:
| Right?! Can tech/UI learn things from art? Yes, absolutely!
|
| But man, the hubris.
|
| Ironically, hubris has been a subject of art for thousands of
| years.
| egypturnash wrote:
| The article opens with "I've been an artist my whole life, in
| various forms -- children's book illustrator, tattoo artist,
| and maker of branded images and characters." so presumably they
| know at least one artist: themselves. A career like that has
| probably left them with social circles that include a lot of
| other artists.
|
| That said, yeah, I think the only artist in _my_ circles (I 'm
| a artist myself) who regularly expresses envy of people in tech
| is the one who's never quite managed to get their career off
| the ground and is stuck in a series of mediocre clerical
| support gigs. I sure as fuck wouldn't want to trade "swanning
| around the parks and cafes of a beautiful tourist destination,
| working about 20h/week, and paying my rent via Patreon support"
| for having to go to an office and work on making the FAANGs of
| the world even richer than they already are.
| helloworld11 wrote:
| What kind of art do you practice? If you don't mind sharing.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Presumably he's not talking to those many, then. What exactly
| do you want him to say. "Guys, do this thing! It's fun! Except
| for you guys who don't think it's fun! In that case, ignore
| this!"
|
| Do you want every exhortation to also include a disclaimer to
| not be exhorted if you actively oppose?
| Ostrogodsky wrote:
| Nothing more dangerous than an "artist", "innovating" in the
| front-end.
| ben7799 wrote:
| The work on reducing dark mode contrasts seems valid.. lots of
| dark mode is way too high contrast. It's trendy, so I try it, and
| pretty immediately can feel the contrast messing with my eyes. So
| it gets turned off.
|
| However I hate the ever increasing emphasis on design that
| doesn't even care about actual usability. It's all about the
| shapes and styling of elements and so much less on how all the
| components fit together, how the user moves through the
| application, etc..
|
| I've been at this a while and used to be a UI guy, it feels like
| the balance of design:usability has shifted further towards
| design than at any other time since I've been using a computer.
| In places where there used to not be a "designer" flow and
| usability could end up being emphasized more than it is today.
| Today a designer sits there and restyles the widgets, in the past
| with no designer everyone else was happy to take the stock
| widgets and follow the design guidelines from MS or especially
| Apple. No thought on restyling widgets meant all the UI design
| time was on the usability.
|
| Thankfully the project I work on right now has a good balance.
| Prior to our current UI designer we had a design-first person and
| it was kind of a disaster, stuff was getting restyled while UI
| requests from customers to fix usability issues were left to
| wither and die.
| aritmo wrote:
| The title is a disaster.
|
| It would only make sense if they are selling training services to
| artists to migrate to UI design, and they want to lower their
| self-esteem so that they actually pay them for the training.
|
| Oh.
| aritmo wrote:
| And 38 upvotes in just an hour. Mmm.
| dang wrote:
| The upvotes are normal. Please follow the site guidelines.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| PhasmaFelis wrote:
| Not everyone who disagrees with you is a shill.
| antiterra wrote:
| This article feels like a bit of a mess. It doesn't really back
| up either of its two statements.
|
| Imposter syndrome generally requires that you are/were in the
| role that makes you feel like an imposter waiting to be found
| out.
|
| There's an interesting tie between UI/design and a color
| principle. There's recognition that an artist may find this
| gratifying and relevant. But, it's a limited example not
| necessarily relevant to all visual artists. As a specific
| example, these guidelines could easily rolled into UI best
| practices and require no further input from color experts or
| artists.
|
| What I was reminded of, was interfaces designed for visual
| interest with little concern for design principles: Winamp skins,
| Enlightenment window manager themes and Kai's Power Tools
| (https://www.mprove.de/script/99/kai/2Software.html)
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Imposter syndrome generally requires that you are/were in the
| role that makes you feel like an imposter waiting to be found
| out.
|
| Actually, it requires that you perceive other people to
| perceive that you have abilities, etc., exceeding what you
| perceive yourself to have. _Role_ is tangential, though having
| a role that (you perceive) creates an expectation of particular
| abilities might contribute to you perceiving others to be
| perceiving you to have the abilities.
|
| But, relative to the immediate context, it is correct that not
| feeling qualified for a role you don't have and that you don't
| think you are or would be seen as qualified for by others for
| is just (justified or not) low (relative to an arbitrary
| target) self-image, not impostor syndrome.
| dnissley wrote:
| I've heard this described as "self gatekeeping".
| eropple wrote:
| _> Imposter syndrome generally requires that you are /were in
| the role that makes you feel like an imposter waiting to be
| found out._
|
| Not a big fan of the article either, but this doesn't strike me
| as accurate from my own experience. Impostor syndrome is more
| often, in my neck of the woods, used to refer to general lack
| of self-confidence. It can prevent you from applying to a job,
| too.
| minxomat wrote:
| That's an incorrect use. Imposter syndrome is called
| _imposter_ syndrome for a reason.
| coldtea wrote:
| Language is based on use. Popular use is never incorrect.
| Dictionaries don't dictate language, they try to follow it.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Reasonable, but if you have conclusions that refer to
| meaning A and meaning B is now dominant, your conclusions
| may be false.
|
| For instance, let's say "begging the question" is a
| logical fallacy and we're in the universe where it refers
| to the circular argument fallacy. Fallacious arguments
| are bad and so we can dismiss an argument that relies on
| this.
|
| Now, let's say over time "begging the question" means
| "the question begs asking". If we still act as if "that
| begs the question" means "that is a fallacious argument"
| then the shift in meaning has made us reach incorrect
| conclusions.
|
| That is, if meaning shifts, you must bust your cache on
| conclusions that follow out from the original meaning.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _That is, if meaning shifts, you must bust your cache
| on conclusions that follow out from the original
| meaning._
|
| Certainly. But most of the time the problem is not people
| that have a "stale case", but that know perfectly well
| what the new meaning is, but are opposed to others using
| the word in that sense for ideological or pedantic
| reasons.
|
| I mean, nobody really thinks "I'm literally dead from
| exhaustion" means I'm actually dead. They know perfectly
| well what it means, and have no meaning-cache issue. They
| just want to be pedantic...
| renewiltord wrote:
| I felt like this was a case of that. i.e. imposter
| syndrome is the narrow zone of lack-of-self-confidence-
| in-the-face-of-counteracting-evidence. i.e. you score 40
| points a game but you don't believe you're actually a
| good basketball player.
|
| My lack of confidence at playing recreational basketball,
| on the other hand, is fairly well-founded. It does have a
| basis and I will probably succeed better if I focus on
| building my game. I'm bottlenecking on skill.
|
| The 40-point-guy, on the other hand, is not going to get
| any better if he focuses on improving his game. He's
| bottlenecking on confidence.
|
| On the gripping hand, though, you're right in that this
| case seems to have just been a prescriptivist speaking
| and personally I usually find terminology-discussions
| boring, so I'm horrified to have found myself having
| participated in one on the side of prolonging. I'll leave
| the previous bit in just because it's a thought I already
| wrote.
| sfotm wrote:
| I hear this argument pretty frequently, but it comes off
| as more of an excuse.
|
| Most people aren't thumping the dictionary like a
| fundamentalist might a Bible, they're just pointing out
| that they have a different understanding of the word than
| another person does. Language is useful when everyone's
| on the same page.
|
| And especially regarding words drifting toward hyperbole,
| exaggeration, and sometimes simple misuse, sometimes it
| makes sense to resist the change. Compare this to
| cultural drift as a whole - sometimes, it drifts away for
| the worse and people calling it out as such aren't
| necessarily being obtuse just for the fun of it.
|
| Sincerely, a person that refuses to let to of the whole
| "literally" thing. I'm great at parties.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Sincerely, a person that refuses to let to of the
| whole "literally" thing. I'm great at parties._
|
| Literally has been used to also (or mainly) mean
| "figurativelly" for centuries, including in major
| authors, it's not some new phenomenon from some
| unsophisticated masses...
|
| It's just a sound, it's not attached to some inherent
| meaning that must stand still till the end of time. Not
| to mention etymology (it originating from the word
| literal) != meaning.
|
| In fact, literal itself (and literally) have changed
| meaning twice in the past, originally they were used to
| talk about things related to words not to mean "in
| actuality" (which is also where "literature" comes from:
| littera from which literature and literal comes from
| meant: "letters").
|
| So, it's people who don't know the proper history and use
| of literally that are annoyed by its used as
| "figuratively".
|
| Probably they also don't know that literally wasn't about
| "in reality" to begin with, or that this is just one of
| many contronyms, words that mean both one thing and the
| opposite (e.g. "dust" - you "dust" to clean a house, and
| you also "dust" to sprinkle some powder on something, or
| "clip" which means both to attach and dettach, "sanction"
| - to approve or to put punitive measures on, etc.).
| sfotm wrote:
| Thanks for the history of the usage. I found an article
| that refers to some notable authors using it in a
| hyperbolic sort of way, maybe I'll do some digging there.
|
| My argument isn't really based in etymology, though, and
| I don't really care about the history of the words I
| quibble over - I'm fine with language changing in
| general. My issue is that making "literally" an alias to
| "very very" and/or "figuratively" leaves a gap where I
| liked the word to be and may leave it ambiguous. If I
| were to write about a guy who heard a joke so funny that
| his heart gave out, I'd be in a real pickle. A real
| pickle.
|
| So the history of the word doesn't really change my
| opinion, and doesn't make my opinion based in some sort
| of ignorance. It's sort of fun to argue against the
| history-based argument that's usually used to support "my
| side" (invalidly, it seems), though.
| mnowicki wrote:
| regardless of whether it's technically correct(or who
| even gets to decide that) - the point of using language
| is to communicate, if you are communicating what you want
| then you're accomplishing your goal.
|
| Sometimes you might want to speak more formally or
| 'proper' - but that's just another example of
| communicating effectively, by using word choice to convey
| the right level of formality. Or to be perceived a
| certain way.
|
| Of course it's fine people are pointing out that they use
| the word a different way. Just saying I think the author
| used a clear word choice to effectively communicate what
| he meant to the largest number of people - even the
| people who are pointing out that he used the word wrong
| know what he was trying to communicate(otherwise they
| wouldn't realize he was using it 'incorrectly').
| jedimastert wrote:
| Imposter syndrome can keep you from advancing your career
| because you think you shouldn't have a career in the first
| place and if you try to move up you'll finally be found
| out.
| BigBubbleButt wrote:
| That just sounds like a lack of confidence. If you aren't
| an imposter, why would you call it imposter syndrome?
| hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
| >If you aren't an imposter, why would you call it
| imposter syndrome?
|
| Couldn't you say this about the names of various
| psychological syndromes? "If you aren't Alice in
| Wonderland, why would you call it Alice in Wonderland
| syndrome?"
|
| It's referring to the person's subjective experience,
| from their (perhaps warped) point of view.
| BigBubbleButt wrote:
| You can call it whatever you want, but if the description
| doesn't fit I think it's fair to say it's at best a poor
| label. And it will always lead to confusion when just
| trying to communicate something. Why not just call a
| spade a spade?
| hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
| It's a psychological condition afflicting someone, not
| that they're actually an imposter.
|
| Imagine a lawyer who is terrified to go to work every
| day. She went to a good law school, got good grades,
| passed the bar exam, is well-respected in her field, etc.
| But she is _terrified_ that her colleagues will, one of
| these days, find out that she 's not even truly a lawyer
| at all -- she's just someone who managed to jump through
| enough hoops to convince people that she's a real lawyer.
| Once the people around her learn who she _really_ is, hoo
| boy... she 's going to lose her law license and her
| reputation and her clients and her house... she lives in
| fear of being "found out" every single day and it's
| beginning to affect both her career and her health.
|
| Is this lawyer an imposter? No, she's truly the lawyer
| everyone thinks she is, and it would be inaccurate to
| call her an imposter. But she is suffering from imposter
| syndrome.
| BigBubbleButt wrote:
| What you just described is an example of imposter
| syndrome (at least the way I think of it). The comment I
| was responding to was not.
|
| If the lawyer feels like an imposter in her current role,
| that's different from feeling like an imposter in a role
| you don't even have. This is the distinction I'm making,
| and why I think the label doesn't fit. Should I feel like
| I have imposter syndrome because I'd be uncomfortable as
| a professional athlete, something I don't do? Or should I
| just realize I don't have confidence to do something
| else? To me those are very different. Recognizing I can't
| do everything isn't a form of imposter syndrome - if it
| is it makes the label completely meaningless.
|
| I'm aware it's a psychological condition. We're arguing
| over something we haven't even defined yet though, so how
| would you define it?
| hoppyhoppy2 wrote:
| If someone doesn't think of themself as a "real artist"
| even though they really do make real art, they might not
| seek a paid job that uses their art skills, as a UI
| designer or otherwise. I think that could reasonably be
| described as "imposter syndrome" by a layperson, but I'm
| not going to haggle over whether or not it meets a formal
| definition.
| BigBubbleButt wrote:
| > but I'm not going to haggle over whether or not it
| meets a formal definition
|
| I'm not trying to haggle, but we can't have a meaningful
| conversation about a term if you aren't going to define
| it.
|
| Agree to disagree, I guess.
| chevill wrote:
| >Should I feel like I have imposter syndrome because I'd
| be uncomfortable as a professional athlete, something I
| don't do?
|
| We aren't talking about short couch potatoes being scared
| to apply to the NBA. That's a justified sense of
| inadequacy.
|
| We're talking about people switching from one fairly
| normal job to another one that probably has a lot of
| overlap with what a person was already doing. Imposter
| syndrome is the unjustified sense of inadequacy.
|
| Its not a binary thing though. Some people would have a
| little bit of doubt transitioning to a slightly different
| role and that's normal. Change is scary to lots of people
| to varying degrees. However, some people are very
| competent, yet might be afraid to apply for a higher
| level position or a slightly different role because they
| fear that they are actually terrible and that they've
| gotten where they are due to luck and graft. That's
| imposter syndrome.
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| Both imposter syndrome and alice in wonderland syndrome
| have the individual feeling like an imposter/alice in
| wonderland in this case?
| jedimastert wrote:
| lack of confidence _is_ imposter syndrome. Actual ability
| or lack there of has nothing to do with whether or not
| you feel like an imposter
| chevill wrote:
| You seem to be misunderstanding what imposter syndrome
| is. The entire point is that you aren't an imposter but
| you feel like one.
|
| Its used to refer to people that are actually competent
| at what they do but they feel like they have faked
| everything and that the entire world is about to find
| out. A lack of self confidence is a core part of imposter
| syndrome.
| Zachsa999 wrote:
| Good thought. Don't forget that op is an artist not a linguist.
| screye wrote:
| Within the context of contemporary art, UI design and artists are
| at complete odds with each other.
|
| Afaik, contemporary art deliberately rejects art as a tool for
| expression of traditional aesthetics, utilitarian maximization or
| broad appeal to the untested eye. Commentary, metaphor and art as
| a reaction to other art is the norm. None of these trainings lend
| themselves well to UI Design which is fundamentally about
| aesthetics facilitating function.
|
| IMO, architects would make for great UI designers, as it is
| another profession that mandates a level of function from the
| art. They also tend to be quite comfortable with complex software
| work due to common architectural tools. (a couple of my friends
| did make the architecture -> UX design transition, and are quite
| happy)
|
| Software engineers are famously stubborn when it comes to their
| aesthetics. One may say they're sensitive to aesthetics. But IMO,
| it is more that they're willing to put in a lot of time to learn
| abstruse interaction patterns and will defend them to death,
| irrespective of their general purpose appeal or intuitiveness.
| Git and Vim are amazing examples. Nothing against the tools. But
| if they needed widespread adoption from the populace then they'd
| be dead in the water on day 1. (They are amazing despite their
| terrible UX, not because of it)
|
| I like to believe that I am quite sensitive to aesthetics and a
| well designed UI can elevate a mediocre tool to near unbeatable
| in their competition space. (The financial planning tool someone
| posted a few days ago on HN is a great example of UI/UX done
| right)
|
| _______
|
| On another note:
|
| Being an artist is also about status and class. Tech is the
| Noveau-Riche of this half-century. It is the lowest status thing
| you can be.
|
| We see it all the time. Tech bros are the butt of every joke and
| their hobbies/culture/lifestyles are widely mocked. You never see
| the same level of disdain towards lawyers in DC or finance bros
| in NYC as you see for tech people in places like Seattle. It
| doesn't help that the demographic is generally male,
| traditionally unattractive, nerdy and socially awkward. (This is
| slowly changing, but not quickly enough. The appeal of tech to a
| certain demographic also isn't necessarily a bad thing. I will
| concede that very likely other professions have occupied this
| same chair in different eras)
|
| The only company that manages to look cool to artists is Apple,
| and they are very careful about hiding that they are a tech
| company first, rather preferring to highlight themselves as a
| fashion company. (The fictionalized steve jobs founding myth also
| helps a lot)
|
| _________
|
| I would love to see more artists come into tech with a mindset of
| cooperation and good faith towards the community than disdain and
| disruption. Maybe we'll see truly great UI design.
| pkdpic_y9k wrote:
| As a practicing visual artist / art school hippie who recently
| got into working as a software engineer I got really excited when
| I saw this, noted problems aside. But I wasn't surprised to see
| it was limited to UI/UX.
|
| I'm having a really hard time finding other art school grads and
| visual artists working on the engineering side of tech and it's
| starting to make me feel a little crazy.
|
| Does anyone have any suggestions on how to find some other visual
| artists working as software engineers to connect with?
| jacobwilliamroy wrote:
| So what happened to me was I started working in film and TV
| production, and as things became more complicated I had to
| start writing scripts to automate our pipelines, building
| servers to share files and track equipment. But most of the
| time when I use the computer, it's to teach it how to help me
| make films faster. Most of the tools I write don't have any
| kind of visual UI components beyond how the documentation is
| typeset.
| motioncuty wrote:
| Hey, lets link up. Does HN have dm's?
| pkdpic_y9k wrote:
| lol, if only? :^p
|
| I recently set up a little discord community and
| corresponding github repo for a couple of other artists
| trying to break into tech to share resources, connect etc.
| Hit me up on there or github for sure!
|
| https://discord.gg/3vdb6rk24D |
| https://github.com/tombetthauser/artists-in-tech-resources
| yungbeto wrote:
| Art school grad here - Though I'm not a professional software
| developer myself, I have a couple artist/SWE friends who are
| involved in the Algorave community along with a lot of other
| creative coders. While not a strictly visual medium it could be
| a nice jumping off point to look into!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorave
| pkdpic_y9k wrote:
| Hey thank you so much!
|
| Semi-related, I've been trying to get some resources together
| for a handful of artists / musicians trying to break into
| tech on this linked repo.
|
| If you or your artist/SWE friends have any suggestions on
| helpful resources I'm desperately trying to get more on there
| via pull requests or the discord linked in the repo!
|
| https://github.com/tombetthauser/artists-in-tech-resources
| blooalien wrote:
| A couple few groups that I know of off the top of my head where
| you might find a lot of overlap between art and tech type
| people would be the "metaverse" (virtual worlds engines [1][2]
| and their users) and the closely related 3d graphic arts/game
| design [3][4].
|
| [1] http://opensimulator.org/
|
| [2] https://github.com/HalcyonGrid
|
| [3] https://www.blender.org/
|
| [4] https://godotengine.org/
| pkdpic_y9k wrote:
| Thats a great thought and those are great suggestions. Thank
| you! :)
| baldanders wrote:
| Regarding imposter syndrome: While I know that imposter syndrome
| is a real phenomenon that people experience, I think that it's
| become some catch-all solution to the fact that many young people
| have not actually put in the practice to master their craft. The
| times in my life where I've felt "imposter syndrome", it would go
| away after I had put in the work to get better at whatever
| subject/hobby I was feeling like an imposter doing. This has led
| me to believe that the majority of people who are dealing with
| imposter syndrome are in fact just experiencing the perfectly
| normal discomfort of recognizing that they are not yet as
| competent in something as they would like to be.
|
| I think this may be a result of the postmodern emphasis on
| subjectivity that has pervaded American culture for the past
| decade and a half. If your art sucks, which of the following
| options is easier on your ego? Saying people "just don't get it"
| and that you're suffering from a psychological condition, or that
| you just need to practice more?
| jraby3 wrote:
| I actually think analysis paralysis is more relevant most of
| the time. It's not thinking you're not good enough - more that
| there are so many options it's hard to figure out one to focus
| on.
|
| I agree wholeheartedly with your comment.
| shadowlight wrote:
| I feel UI designers are all imposters pretending that their job
| is some kind of ultra high value skill set. The UI designer is an
| important job but to compare it to a still life painting?
| Laughable.
|
| Literally, that still life painting takes 1000x more skill to
| render than arranging text, pictures and geometric elements on a
| website. ANYONE can arrange these elements on a website in a
| pleasing way. It takes time and effort to consider the best way
| to arrange these elements but it doesn't take extraordinary
| talent to do this... anyone can do it.
|
| Mind you there are some programmers that are really inept at all
| forms of "art" but this post isn't direct at those people. On
| average arranging text in a pleasing way is a trivial exercise.
| Adding this "color" and "depth" theory on top of it (there's no
| real science theory here) is just pretentious. Yes these
| "theories" are sort of applicable but at the same time "what just
| looks good" also works just as well.
| nerdponx wrote:
| This is unbelievably arrogant. Where is your UI portfolio?
|
| If UI design were easy, we wouldn't have garbage UIs all over
| the place.
| shadowlight wrote:
| Also unbelievably and unfortunately true. The arrogance of a
| statement has no bearing on truth. Keep your biases in check
| and examine the truth behind a statement rather then
| perceived arrogance. Look at https://www.google.com/.
|
| It looks clean, and nice and well arranged.
|
| Does it look like a work of pure talent and skill and a work
| of incredible skill and artistry? No. No it does not.
|
| Sure google is probably paying some designer 200k to come up
| with that front page but seriously let's take a look at it
| from the perspective of reality. How much effort and talent
| is required to come up with that search page versus painting
| a still life painting? Let's face it: Not much talent, and
| not much effort either.
|
| You can take it a notch up further and talk about complicated
| interfaces like gmail or outlook. For that I have to say that
| there's a lot of TIME involved in thinking through the
| placement and color coding of the interfaces. But is there
| talent? No. Anybody can spend the time to think about that
| stuff.
|
| As for painting still life? Or the human figure from thin
| air? That's raw talent. Not many people can do that no matter
| how much time you give them. I also bet a good chunk of UI
| designers don't have the ability to even draw at that level.
|
| Have you seen the netflix show Love, death, robots? The
| artistry in that show is amazing. I respect the people who
| work on those episodes. That is an example of modern artistry
| displaying pure talent and raw skill. UI designers in
| comparison? Imposters, most of them, and I'm not referring to
| the syndrome.
|
| Also I'm not the one claiming I'm good at UI design. I'm
| calling out the imposters. Why don't you show me your
| portfolio and I'll give you my honest opinion on it. Good UI
| design is good UI but man you guys are not "artists" to the
| degree the people on that netflix show are actual artists.
| dang wrote:
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Edit: you've been breaking the site guidelines egregiously,
| e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27857458, which is
| obviously not acceptable here. We ban accounts that do that, so
| I've banned this one.
|
| Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
| deltafourone wrote:
| Please don't shallowly ban people for no good reason. If you
| read that thread you posted my reaction to him was pretty
| reasonable. He told me to go study physics. A small violation
| of the rules? Yeah sure but did I incite anger? No. I was
| responding to his insult... hardly worth a ban.
|
| Additionally who's to judge that is a shallow dismissal. YOU
| simply JUST don't agree with it. That's the main problem
| here. I WROTE reams of text to justify that dismissal. It is
| literally the OPPOSITE of shallow.
|
| Is it a dismissal? Yes. It is an unpopular opinion? Yes. Is
| it a shallow dismissal? No. Are you incurring your own bias
| to ban me here? Absolutely Yes. The evidence is UTTERLY clear
| from my description above. If anything the one person who
| responded to my post had the most shallow reply. He literally
| dismissed most of the design content out on the internet as
| "garbage" with not even a sentence to support that assertion.
| That is the definition of Shallow.
|
| And that is why I will always be creating accounts that will
| NEVER break HN's rules. These accounts will however ALWAYS
| break your own biased interpretation of your own rules. You
| are absolutely not a neutral arbiter here. You take sides and
| your bias here is on the side of considering UI to be
| artistry and you ban anyone who doesn't share your opinion by
| calling anyone who doesn't share it "shallow."
|
| Take a look at the thread again. It wasn't insulting and it
| was FAR from shallow. You really piss me off Dang.
| dang wrote:
| The comment was an extreme violation of the site guidelines
| and would be a bannable offence even if you weren't
| routinely creating accounts to do that. Please stop.
| deltaonefive wrote:
| Yeah it wasn't. We can agree to disagree. The other guy
| who was obviously saying things to trigger me obviously
| isn't even getting a warning which goes to show how
| biased you are. "Go study physics. Go study chemistry."
| Seriously, how offensive is that? You're rationalizing
| your actions which are obviously unfair and applied
| selectively.
|
| But in my opinion, that's just one aspect of you being
| unfair and NOT even the main point as it's a completely
| different thread.
|
| You just failed to even address my other point how my
| dismissal WASN'T shallow at all. You literally just
| banned me for something I provided a lot of explanation
| for and wasn't SHALLOW at all. Good for you, maybe you
| can ban all my other accounts because it seems like the
| only way for anyone to get unbanned is to bend the knee
| to you rather than point out your own faults.
|
| Also yeah keep doing the IP shadow ban, pretty soon you
| can ban this entire subnet who knows what service you're
| restricting?
| backtoyoujim wrote:
| This article reminds me of people that say the eagles could have
| dropped the ring into Mordor.
|
| The corporate world has spent the better part of a century
| convincing the populace that when one doesn't work in cubes,
| "people" like artists, then they aren't really doing their share.
|
| And now, suddenly, the corporate state wants those people to
| prioritize their value as resources to the corporatocracy.
|
| Much like the eagles from LOTR, some people don't have any
| interest of your company, or IPO, or your disruption no matter
| how "valuable" they could be to some corporate bottom line.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Only speaking for myself here, and not speaking as an artist,
| but I think a lot of companies foist a lowest-common-
| denominator incentive structure on everyone and then act
| surprised when they have difficulty with recruiting/retention.
| Not everyone wants the same thing out of work.
|
| For example, I have a fundamental disconnect with the idea of
| corporate ladder climbing, and it makes me feel like a bit of
| an alien sometimes. It's not interesting to me, though I
| realize you need a certain amount of status to maintain some
| notion of autonomy. I'm not even talking about office politics
| per se; I just think the notion of "work X years and get Y
| title" feels empty to me. As I mentioned, I'm motivated more by
| autonomy than external perceptions of status.
|
| I'm happy with work, but I've had to realize and accept this in
| myself, and learn ways of navigating a world where many concern
| themselves primarily with their own status.
| pdog wrote:
| My doctoral thesis was on precisely the question of what role
| the Great Eagles could have played before and during the War of
| the Ring to deliver the One Ring to Mordor. It's not simple
| enough to say they were great beings who would have been
| corrupted by the ring, or they were not interested in the power
| of the ring, or even that the story would have ended in ten
| minutes and therefore they couldn't do it. There is a lot of
| research and discussion[1][2][3][4][5][6] of this open
| question.
|
| [1]: http://www.sean-crist.com/personal/pages/eagles/index.html
|
| [2]: https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Eagles
|
| [3]: https://www.polygon.com/lord-of-the-rings/22432394/eagles-
| lo...
|
| [4]:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/6nysuy/lotr_cl...
|
| [5]: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/2333/why-didnt-
| gan...
|
| [6]: https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-the-Eagles-fly-the-
| Ringbeare...
| unamashana wrote:
| Disclaimer: Not an artist myself but a friend of the writer,
| and a co-founder of MagicBell - the host of the blog.
|
| Aren't there a lot of artists (just like there are lots of
| actors) who have a day job to pay the bills? If that job
| happens to be in tech (and pay well) that should ideally be of
| interest to many people. Not to everyone but surely to some I
| assume. They won't be invested in the IPO or disruption but
| they could be interested in doing their job well and making a
| good living. I have a lot of friends (not all artists) who are
| super smart but work for low pay at restaurants and I for one
| sure wish they could work at tech and make more money. I know
| for a fact many of them would want to.
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