[HN Gopher] Bitcoin's gold rush was always an illusion
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Bitcoin's gold rush was always an illusion
Author : InternetPerson
Score : 42 points
Date : 2021-07-21 16:44 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.newstatesman.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.newstatesman.com)
| coralreef wrote:
| PCs / internet are too slow and expensive for practical home use.
|
| iPhones wont sell well because they don't have keyboards. All you
| can do is download fart apps? Waste of money.
|
| Etc.
| staticman2 wrote:
| There's more to economics, business, and technology than making
| up assertions like "This is the Iphone of _______".
| coralreef wrote:
| New platforms often look like toys. They have limited
| features, are not always faster, and are usually more
| expensive. This makes them easy to dismiss.
|
| People often analyze Bitcoin's price volatility, the way it
| is manipulated in unregulated trade. They then assert that
| this asset must be as valueless and useless as the patterns
| it trades under. Bitcoin the asset is no longer separable
| from the hustlers profiting from it. Bitcoin, the network,
| the platform, the technology, somehow becomes the scam.
| hungryhobo wrote:
| that's not even close to an accurate analogy.
|
| iphone was better than conventional phones in every aspect.
|
| what are some of the things that bitcoin does better than
| conventional banking?
| coralreef wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U
|
| Ballmer's thoughts were rational at the time, but wrong.
| lou1306 wrote:
| The first iPhone didn't have a front camera nor 3G, which
| were common features at the time. Not saying it wasn't
| groundbreaking (it was), but "better in every aspect" is a
| bit of a stretch.
| gruez wrote:
| >what are some of the things that bitcoin does better than
| conventional banking?
|
| sibling comment:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27911974
| xadhominemx wrote:
| Bitcoin has been around for a decade now and no one has
| imagined much less implemented use cases beyond anonymous
| payments for illegal cross-border transfers or illicit goods
| and trading other crypto coins
| coralreef wrote:
| The use case is:
|
| - an asset that cannot easily be seized (safe, mobile,
| relatively easy to recover with seed words)
|
| - an asset that cannot easily be debased (good at storing
| value)
|
| - a network that is permissionless to participate in (no
| requirement for citizenship or identification, just software)
|
| - a network that is censorship resistant (interact with
| willing parties, pseudo-anonymously).
|
| What you mean to say is that YOU have no use for it. That's
| fine, you most likely have elite banking access, access to
| stable and liquid stock and bond markets, forex markets, etc.
|
| Look up Turkey's double digit yearly inflation rate over the
| last couple decades. Look up the capital controls imposed by
| Lebanon.
| hungryhobo wrote:
| you must be living in your own bubble if you think any of
| those apply to bitcoin.
|
| > an asset that cannot easily be seized (safe, mobile,
| relatively easy to recover with seed words)
|
| the us government was able to chase back bitcoin payments
| made to hackers
|
| - an asset that cannot easily be debased (good at storing
| value)
|
| bitcoin in it self is not an asset, just like paper money
| by itself is worthless.
|
| - a network that is permissionless to participate in (no
| requirement for citizenship or identification, just
| software)
|
| i'm not sure if it's as permissionless as you think. you
| would still need an internet connection, which in most
| cases require identification to setup. regular people
| aren't gonna implement the software themselves, so they
| have to get it from somewhere. the most widely distributed
| bitcoin wallets are not permissionless.
|
| - a network that is censorship resistant (interact with
| willing parties, pseudo-anonymously).
|
| if you're trading bitcoin through an exchange (i.e 99% of
| the users), it's not anonymous.
| gruez wrote:
| You must be living in your own bubble if you think that
| people are going to accept that statement with zero
| supporting arguments.
| hungryhobo wrote:
| fair enough, arguments added
| rfd4sgmk8u wrote:
| >the us government was able to chase back bitcoin
| payments made to hackers
|
| because they left it on a US exchange. They were not able
| to chase up the affiliate fee, which should give your
| pause to think about exactly how it can be reclaimed.
|
| > bitcoin in it self is not an asset, just like paper
| money by itself is worthless.
|
| I dunno man, i can give a paper $20 bill to a bartender
| and they give me beer. paper seems not to be worthless by
| itself.
|
| > i'm not sure if it's as permissionless as you think.
| you would still need an internet connection, which in
| most cases require identification to setup. regular
| people aren't gonna implement the software themselves, so
| they have to get it from somewhere. the most widely
| distributed bitcoin wallets are not permissionless.
|
| It is permissionless, in that nobody needs to grant
| permission to download/compile an open source product and
| use it. You have to have permission from your parents to
| be alive i guess...
|
| > if you're trading bitcoin through an exchange (i.e 99%
| of the users), it's not anonymous.
|
| Yes, and with the travel rules going in worldwide it will
| be even less. However, what the powers that be do not
| understand is that it is PERMISSIONLESS. Once the funds
| are in the UTXO, they can be spent anywhere, including
| non-KYC destinations, or even lightning channels. The
| industry wants to push the narrative that KYC-exchange ->
| ??? -> KYC-exchange implies ??? is the same beneficial
| owner. It isn't, and someone is in for a rude shock when
| their case falls apart due to bad assumptions.
| Ultimately, any regulation is a bandaid on a broken arm.
| The technology exists and is unstoppable.
| coralreef wrote:
| > the us government was able to chase back bitcoin
| payments made to hackers
|
| "chase back", but not forcibly, cryptographically seized.
| The blockchain is transparent. So yes, transactions can
| be traced. But there's a billion dollar bounty out there
| if you know how to crack private keys.
|
| > bitcoin in it self is not an asset, just like paper
| money by itself is worthless.
|
| Anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay.
| Anything is an asset. Some assets are utilized as money
| better than others (gold, bitcoin, fiat vs apples,
| paintings).
|
| > i'm not sure if it's as permissionless as you think.
|
| Most people already have internet connections. App stores
| are not permissionless, but there are many other ways to
| load software onto a device.
|
| > if you're trading bitcoin through an exchange (i.e 99%
| of the users), it's not anonymous.
|
| If you're trading Bitcoin through an exchange, then
| you're not using Bitcoin the network. You would be
| "trading bitcoin through an exchange". There are also p2p
| services like localbitcoins and bisq.
| MathYouF wrote:
| Hit me up if you're looking for a like minded friend, my
| github and LinkedIn are the same as my username.
| neb_b wrote:
| What about cross-border payments to family members living in
| a different country?
| Ma8ee wrote:
| It's is usually trivial to do international money transfers
| between banks today. And if that isn't possible, there are
| services like Western Union.
| rfd4sgmk8u wrote:
| Settlement within an hour? For cents (vs $10 for wires)?
| Without permission of 3rd parties? To regions that are
| not connected to the international banking system? No.
|
| Bitcoin is better for international money transfers than
| WU or your local bank. I can't believe this is even a
| talking point in 2021.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| It's more expensive to use Bitcoin than TransferWise to
| send international payments or money transfers.
| TransferWise often settles very fast if the destination
| country has good fintech plumbing (Australia, Canada,
| SEPA, etc).
| Ma8ee wrote:
| That argument is equivalent with the argument "Ignaz Semmelweis
| was rejected by his peers and eventually placed in a
| psychiatric ward, and he was a genius. I'm rejected by my peers
| and placed in a psychiatric ward, therefore, I must also be a
| genius."
|
| Most technology that is rejected is rejected for good reasons,
| but few remember those technologies. In a few years Bitcoin
| will only be remembered in footnotes like the tulip bulb craze.
| coralreef wrote:
| Yeah, people keep saying that.
|
| And year after year it sets higher lows, and new highs.
|
| Transactions go up, users go up, dollar value goes up. New
| technology like lightning gets developed, it gets
| cheaper/faster (https://bitcoinvisuals.com/lightning).
|
| But hey, the price is down 50% this year, so we can call it a
| failure.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| Oh, no one is questioning its success as a pyramid scheme.
| In that regard it is extraordinary successful. It is all
| the widespread actual use that still is missing. (And I'm
| sure you can provide some anecdotes about someone using it
| a lot, but that doesn't change the data.)
| vlucas wrote:
| Non-paywall link: https://archive.is/coOQ5
| InternetPerson wrote:
| The article argues that, "Through successive booms and busts, the
| price of Bitcoin has been manipulated by a handful of large
| players, using fake transactions, imaginary assets and
| sophisticated timing."
|
| It highlights the role that Tether plays. "[W]henever Bitcoin's
| price began to fall, Tether was issued by Bitfinex and sent to
| two other exchanges, where it was used to buy Bitcoin - which
| would then rise in price."
| theknocker wrote:
| Bitcoin is at like 300% compared to where it was this time last
| year.
| prohobo wrote:
| Cryptography brings computational solutions to finance. The end.
| tracedddd wrote:
| "Cryptocurrencies are described by their fans as a people-powered
| revolution, digital banking unchained from the interests of the
| wealthy and powerful."
|
| Not quite correct. The wealthy and powerful can be wealthy and
| powerful and express their interests. They just have no special
| powers, as crypto currencies aim to be permissionless and
| deregulated.
|
| That means price manipulation or other financial games are
| largely quite ok by crypto standards so long as anyone is
| invited. It's anti-bank and anti-government.. not anti-capitalist
| or anti-finance.
|
| Whether you are on board with this vision or if it's good for
| society is another issue, but crypto is largely fulfilling its
| goals in my opinion.
| llcoolv wrote:
| Yeah. On top of that the article is a bit misleading as the
| goal of crypto, gold, etc is not to become rich, but not to
| become poorer due to inflation.
| 0des wrote:
| The goal is permissionless transactions on an immutable
| ledger.
| xadhominemx wrote:
| What is the goal of that?
| imtringued wrote:
| It's funny. What he is saying is that Bitcoin's value is
| philosophical in nature.
| [deleted]
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