[HN Gopher] Caffeine and theanine exert opposite effects on atte...
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Caffeine and theanine exert opposite effects on attention (2017)
Author : chalst
Score : 225 points
Date : 2021-07-21 13:00 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| >Caffeine reduced flanker conflict difference scores on the
| Attention Network Test (p < 0.05), theanine increased difference
| scores (p < 0.05), and the combination did not differ from
| placebo. Thus, under emotional arousal, caffeine and theanine
| exert opposite effects on certain attentional processes, but when
| consumed together, they counteract the effects of each other.
|
| Haven't seen the actual paper yet, but generally reduced
| difference scores is taken as "better" performance on a cognitive
| control tasks. Which would mean, caffeine better than theanine,
| and better than caffeine plus theanine. Don't really know that
| however, because you lose information when you take a difference
| score. For example, caffeinated individuals may suddenly find
| non-emotional stimuli just as distracting as emotional stimuli,
| and so difference between conditions disappears. That's why its
| important to note the change in all conditions (emotional vs non-
| emotional flankers) in all experimental groups.
| pvarangot wrote:
| They used "highly arousing negative film clips and pictures" to
| stimulate, so since it's negative clips under that kind of
| stimuli coffee would be worse.
| MaryBoyagi19 wrote:
| They are both good in the right proportions, harmony matters
| w4llstr33t wrote:
| Anecdotally I've found that taking some l-theanine with coffee
| helps takes some of the edge off of the caffeine.
| peteretep wrote:
| My (previously medicated) anxiety disorder has disappeared since
| I stopped drinking more than one coffee a day and started
| supplementing with l-theanine.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| If you get anxiety from bodily sensations then caffeine is no
| bueno. It pretty much gives you the initial sensations of a
| panic attack then sets you off from there.
| deagle50 wrote:
| Which brand?
| peteretep wrote:
| With the caveat that I am sure it doesn't matter, Puritan's
| Pride 200mg
| klhutchins wrote:
| Anecdotally, Caffeine+L-Theanine makes my anxiety worse and my
| ability to focus severely decreased, basically the opposite
| effects of what people seem to achieve with this combo.
| paraph1n wrote:
| As compared to caffeine alone? Or as compared to nothing?
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Theanine has been shown to have a noticeable relaxation without
| sedative effect, and a minor decrease in anxiety, within minutes
| of ingestion.
|
| Yes, there are problems with all studies, and it sure is fun to
| pile on, but a cursory search of examine.com confirms my own
| experience and that of amateur noot-ers: Theanine takes the edge
| off caffeine and helps focus. Caffeine+Theanine is the third
| highest recommended home treatment for focus (behind exercise and
| sleep) on r/nootropics for whatever that's worth.
|
| You can find other studies here:
| https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/
|
| I take it semi-regularly during times I'm over-consuming
| caffeine, but find that I come to resent its absence when I stop
| taking it.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| I always take theanine with my caffeine (that is, I drink tea).
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Interesting. As a Chinese I used to drink tea but years ago I
| switched to coffee for better flavour. Maybe I should try
| milk tea instead.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| Don't give up on the flavour, there is a massive range of
| Chinese tea that's indescribably amazing. I mean, duckshit
| oolong, da Hong pao, puerh...
| wil421 wrote:
| I worked at an American Chinese restaurant that had
| fantastic oolong tea. Whenever I bought it from Asian
| supermarkets it was literally the worst quality tea I've
| ever tasted, below the Lipton tea that's for making sweet
| tea.
| Vrondi wrote:
| Look for "Tie Guan Yin" (Iron Goddess of Mercy) Oolong.
| It's a lovely starting point. Usually good across most
| brands. Medium-light and naturally floral/fruity quality
| to it. The amount you use and the temp and time for
| brewing are also different for Oolong compared to black
| teas.
| cercatrova wrote:
| Buy online, check out the /r/tea wiki [0] and
| specifically the user vendor list [1]
|
| [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/tea/wiki/faq
|
| [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/tea/wiki/vendors/page_01
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| Part of the problem there is that the domestic market
| consumes most of the best grades of all types of teas.
| But it's possible to get really amazing Chinese and
| Taiwanese teas from tea importers in the US[1] and EU.
| Some of them are pricey, but not all (and tea is
| generally not too expensive per cup, compared with lots
| of other beverages).
|
| 1: https://www.uptontea.com/teas/c/oolong-
| tea/pgsize/12/filter/...
| minsc__and__boo wrote:
| I've found Pu Erh tea is a great transition as a coffee
| drinker. It has that strong earthy/malty flavor, even if
| it doesn't have the caffeine.
|
| Just make sure you buy it from a brick instead of the
| loose leaf (which tends to be lower quality imo).
| pvarangot wrote:
| Pu Erh is great but you have to be careful with it if you
| have low blood pressure. I learn't the hard way after I
| once brewed some after having a beer and straight down
| passed out in the kitchen, like fell to the floor passed
| out. I do have low blood pressure and usually took Pu Erh
| while sitting down but after that I just stopped taking
| it allover.
| skindoe wrote:
| Lonjing
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I've recently switched over to green tea and really wish I
| had earlier.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| What did you switch from? Coffee? Coffee has some decent
| health benefits as well, but probably isn't so great for
| your anxiety levels. :-)
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Yes from coffee. I was almost at a pot/day and it was not
| helping.
| wil421 wrote:
| I switch to espresso a couple years ago and never looked
| back. A double shot latte in the AM is enough to keep me
| going and I don't need a full pot. If I'm especially
| tired I'll do a straight espresso shot in the afternoon.
| asadkn wrote:
| I have personally observed something similar with black tea but
| I am not sure if's just the theanine + EGCGs or something else.
|
| A while back, I noticed that 'chai' helps me focus and relax
| (improved mood, less anxiety, etc.) at the same time. It's made
| of milk, black tea, cardamom, cinnamon, and negligible/no sugar
| (personal preference).
|
| I prefer coffee in terms of taste, but of all the things I have
| tried, this has been the best for me. Black tea alone doesn't
| have the same effect on me, nor does green tea, or coffee with
| or without milk/cream/sugar.
|
| So I wonder if it's the combination that matter and not
| theanine alone.
| ValentineC wrote:
| > _A while back, I noticed that 'chai' helps me focus and
| relax (improved mood, less anxiety, etc.) at the same time.
| It's made of milk, black tea, cardamom, cinnamon, and
| negligible/no sugar (personal preference)._
|
| I know Starbucks et al market the above as 'chai', but I
| think 'masala' (as in 'masala chai' [1]) should be the
| keyword.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masala_chai
| ac29 wrote:
| > It's made of milk, black tea, cardamom, cinnamon, and
| negligible/no sugar
|
| Maybe you mean no added sugar? Milk has 1.5g of sugar / oz
| (about half that of orange juice, as a comparison).
| sizzle wrote:
| I use l theanine everyday to avoid heart palpitations with
| coffee. Is there any long term damage I'm doing from this daily
| combo??
| reader_mode wrote:
| >Caffeine+Theanine is the third highest recommended home
| treatment for focus (behind exercise and sleep) on r/nootropics
| for whatever that's worth.
|
| I'm surprised modafinil isn't no. 1
|
| I don't use it regularly to avoid developing a tolerance, but
| that thing has a profound impact on the ability to focus and
| power through, nothing else I've tried comes even close. I
| guess speed/amphetamine but that gets me euphoric and I notice
| elevated heart rate, I don't feel any different on modafinil
| other than focused and tiredness being blocked.
| likeabbas wrote:
| Interesting. My anecdotal experience with modafinil is that I
| get extreme anxiety and elevated heart rate without any
| additional focus benefits. In fact, it detriments my ability
| to focus.
|
| Adderall on the other hand, while stimulating and euphoric,
| gets the job done. But it works so well that I have trouble
| focusing without it now. I've tried tapering off multiple
| times but always go back to it when my work quality suffers
| and I'm not contributing to tasks that my team needs done.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Paranoid suspicion was my #1 effect. No thanks.
| hda111 wrote:
| Modafinil or Methylphenidate? Modafinil never made me
| paranoid but I know at least one person with psychosis
| caused by Methylphenidate.
|
| I avoid both nowadays because work isn't worth risking
| health.
| likeabbas wrote:
| What are the health risks with either?
| likeabbas wrote:
| For Modafanil or Adderall?
| reader_mode wrote:
| I got that the second time I used modafinil and went with
| whole pill (did half the first time). Later on I did whole
| pills every time and had no sideffects (a couple of times I
| would get noticeably elevated HR, but I was awake 12+h at
| that point and need moda to get through the night)
| likeabbas wrote:
| What dosage? I've tried 25mg, 50mg, 100mg and 200mg doses
| for Modafanil at different stages for a month. I was
| really trying to get off of Adderall at the time, but
| nothing really worked for me.
| reader_mode wrote:
| 200mg worked for me, started with 100mg to see if I would
| get sideffects, but I never used it over 2-3 days in a
| week.
| likeabbas wrote:
| Different strokes for different blokes, I guess.
| meepmorp wrote:
| -afanils don't work for everyone. Modafinil makes me both
| jittery and tired, and I can't focus for more than a minute;
| kind of like I'm badly jet lagged and just need to pass out.
| unwaryquerier wrote:
| Do you have a site you use to purchase your modafinil? And
| how did you decide dosage?
|
| EDIT... and it looks like this is a controlled substance. I
| didnt know
| reader_mode wrote:
| Gf had a huge stash she ordered from India years back. I
| almost ran through them over the years so will need to
| restock but it doesn't seem as big of a deal as getting rec
| drugs, more like ordering steroids
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I'm not sure about HN policy here regarding linking to such
| things. For a couple of years I ordered from Afinil
| Express, who have semirecently changed their name to Shark
| Mood. You can guess/Google the URL. For security you'll
| definitely want to use cryptocurrency and not a credit
| card; apparently the issue is shady overseas card
| processors and not the merchant(s) themselves FWIW.
|
| As far as dosage, it's really trial and error I suppose.
| Generally each pill is meant as a single dose AFAIK. You
| can always dip your toes in the water by starting off with
| 1/4 or 1/2 a pill.
|
| I generally do 1/2 a pill before breakfast and 1/2 a pill
| before lunch (on work days) and roughly half that amount on
| off days.
| astrange wrote:
| It's only schedule IV. The other stimulants are schedule II
| because they can be abused.
| 01100011 wrote:
| My problem with Moda/Armoda is that I feel like a tweaker
| when I'm on it, and I only take enough to get an effect. I
| get sweaty, physically stressed, and just generally feel like
| I'm taking something that is not in my body's best interests.
| I have to drink liters of water to avoid a headache. I also
| have noticed some of the dopamine effects(increased risk
| taking and addictive behaviors). I'm slightly bipolar
| though(type II, pretty mild) so maybe it's just not for
| people like me.
|
| It does work pretty well for focus though, and is really nice
| for my middle-aged brain which often is tired throughout the
| day.
| espresso_enigma wrote:
| re. Modafinil, I heard it mentioned by a reputable programmer
| on twitter and decided to try it. I used it regularly for
| several years, and it was extremely useful in helping with
| focus and staying on task. I feel like it helped me in a
| breakthrough phase of my career. The problem I found was that
| I could only tolerate it 2-3 times per week over the long
| term. Any more than that, and the edgy/anxious/irritable side
| effects would build up to intolerable levels. Not to mention
| I was buying from questionable sources online, figuring it
| would be too difficult to talk a doctor into prescribing me
| some.
|
| Eventually though I worried about the quality of the batched
| I was getting online and stopped taking it altogether. But I
| still really struggled with focus on a daily basis and
| started to wonder if what I was really doing was self
| medicating for undiagnosed ADHD. Thinking back on my life it
| did sort of fit. Though I am a "successful" developer and I'm
| doing fairly well at life, it has always felt like I had to
| struggle and fight a lot more than the average person just go
| get through the day and stay on task. So I talked to a
| doctor, tried ritalin and adderall and have settled on a low
| dose adderall routine that really works for me. It helps
| tremendously with focus and motivation, and if I am diligent
| about maintaining a good diet/exercise/sleep schedule, the
| side effects are very manageable with daily use. I still
| think about the modafinil days, because those were good
| times, and it was fun to have that all day I'm on fire
| feeling. Adderall is nice, but I can tell that if I upped my
| dose to get into the realm of intense focus that Modafinil
| used to give me, I would also be getting pretty "high" and
| the comedown side effects would probably be more unpleasant.
| cauliflower2718 wrote:
| Have you been at a low dose for a long time? Is there
| something you do to reduce tolerance?
| MivLives wrote:
| I daily take modafinil, actually prescribed to me. I have
| bad problems when I take either ritalin or adderall. Not
| being able to sleep for over 24 hours, and panic attacks
| being some of the more annoying ones. Modafinil on the
| other hand the difference is more subtle, where if I try I
| can focus but I'm not trying to focus on something.
|
| Highly recommend anyone considering it talking it over with
| their doctor first. The dose they sell via grey market can
| be rather high especially if you haven't had it before.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| Highly recommend anyone considering it talking
| it over with their doctor first.
|
| Do folks generally have luck getting it prescribed for
| ADHD and its ilk these days?
|
| The doctors I've mentioned it to were not receptive to
| prescribing it off-label for attention disorders.
|
| They didn't really seem to think it was an awful idea per
| se but really couldn't endorse it, and naturally they
| were worried about the risks of ordering it from
| possibly-unreliable overseas pharmacies.
| cauliflower2718 wrote:
| I haven't been able to get modafinil for ADHD (n=1). I
| have heard of people getting prescriptions for modafinil
| because of their work schedules (e.g. being tied to the
| hours of a stock exchange in a different time zone).
| sizzle wrote:
| Have you tried Dexedrine? It's the right handed enantiomer of
| adderall which has less pronounced effects on heart rate,
| etc.
| pvarangot wrote:
| The nootropics community is usually more about substances
| with reliable effects across the whole spectrum of neural
| fauna. Modafinil has side effects that are really bad for
| productivity in a substantial percent of the population, like
| it doesn't work or it's really bad for some people with GAD
| or OCD and people prone to addiction or with ASD.
|
| I'm not a proponent of having drugs be "prescription only",
| people should be allowed to eat what they want if they don't
| harm anyone else... but I personally put Modafinil under my
| list of stuff that you probably may need some help with if
| you want to try it.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Could you please expand on what you mean by "neural fauna"?
| I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
| pvarangot wrote:
| Everyone's brain is different and substances may don't
| affect everyone in the same way. Like how some people get
| addicted to coffee or cigarettes and some don't, some
| people get the benefits of Modafinil without the side
| effects and some don't. Cognitive disorders are one way
| to categorize this but it can be more complex than that.
| People with OCD or GAD are an extreme example, there's a
| lot of different personality types and brain structures
| out there, that's the "neural fauna" I'm talking about.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| I'm sure it's primarily because caffeine and theanine are
| culturally accepted and available cheaply over-the-counter.
| Modafinil is prescription-only (at least in the US), and
| speed/amphetamines are likewise illegal.
|
| Instead of asking your doctor for psychoactive drugs or
| delving through the dark corners of the internet or dark
| corners of downtown alleys, you can get caffeine at Walgreens
| or Starbucks.
| reader_mode wrote:
| But the two aren't even comparable in terms of effect IMO.
| I already have caffeine tolerance so at this point I'm
| drinking coffee out of habit and not to go through
| withdrawal, but even when I reset my tolerance a few times
| getting back into it does almost nothing compared to
| modafinil (aside from getting jitters when I overdo it)
| ceedan wrote:
| I just skimmed r/nootropics and it seems like the side
| effects and prescription requirement of modafinil
| disqualify it as a home recommendation.
|
| If the recommendations were purely about effectiveness
| all recommendations would likely be prescriptions...
| odiroot wrote:
| > I'm surprised modafinil isn't no. 1
|
| Someone shared modafinil with me once. The effect is crazy.
|
| As you say, it lets you focus on single task for quite a long
| time, without feeling tired. And I'm saying it as a person
| who can be easily distracted.
|
| I never tried it again, not to mess with my brain.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| It has that effect for me... but unfortunately I don't
| always get to choose the task. Sometimes I'll get really
| interested in the wrong thing, as opposed to work.
|
| But overall I do find it beneficial and preferable to
| Adderall.
| reader_mode wrote:
| Yes, same thing, I get distracted easily, but modafinil is
| like a cheat code to getting stuff done.
| Florin_Andrei wrote:
| Simple protocol: one coffee cup in the morning to wake up.
| Green or black tea through the day as needed.
| tayo42 wrote:
| Within minutes? Are you snorting it? can anything get through
| you that quickly orally? Sounds like placebo
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| If consumed dissolved in a liquid on an empty stomach, it can
| be absorbed rather quickly.
| taeric wrote:
| Neat that the point is that they offset each other. Not just that
| they have opposite effects used individually, but when combined
| they are no different from a placebo.
|
| I'll have to dive more on what the local processing means.
| SavageBeast wrote:
| Commencing self experiment in 3,2,1...
|
| Combining with this other little jewel found on HN earlier this
| afternoon:
|
| https://sudo.fm/?ambience=1,50|2,50
| rupertdev wrote:
| I've taken L-Theanine in the morning with coffee, but I found
| that it seems to limit the effects of my stimulant medication for
| ADHD, which I suppose makes sense. I will likely try taking it in
| the afternoon if I drink another cup of coffee.
| raducu wrote:
| I vaguely remember theanine helped me sleep.
|
| I've had bad sleep forever, but since I've started concerta, my
| sleep is worse than ever.
|
| Guess I should give theanine another shot.
| ck425 wrote:
| Interesting. In what way? I just started a generic version of
| concerta and so far haven't found L-Theanine to have any
| negative effect, though I mostly get it from green tea and only
| take it in supplement form.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| I noticed when I switched from cream to oat milk, the coffee hits
| a little differently. It feels stronger. I'm not sure if its some
| interaction with milk. But paper should consider what is consumed
| with the coffee too. Some people will add sugar, and some even
| add butter.
| PascLeRasc wrote:
| Have you tried drinking it black as well? I wonder if it's
| added sugar that a lot of oat milks have or something drowsy-
| inducing in milk.
| minsc__and__boo wrote:
| Oat milk has more carbs than the rest of the alt (?) milks,
| and sometimes more than cow. Def could be the reason for
| feeling better.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| I haven't really. I switched to Oatmilk, because I was
| getting stomach cramps about once a month. Still haven't
| figured out if the milk was causing it, because it happened
| again after the switch. Maybe its something in the coffee,
| maybe the pesticides they use or maybe I don't clean the
| coffee machine frequently enough. I drink as many as 5 cups
| in day. So I'm might have a bit of a problem.
| bserge wrote:
| I'm... using caffeine powder sublingually... Fast acting, no
| stomach problems.
|
| Different brands have noticeably different strength, though,
| gotta be careful. The less bitter the powder, the better imo.
| holdenlucas wrote:
| In your experience, what is the brand with the least bitter
| powder?
| bserge wrote:
| Having tried half a dozen brands, I prefer Scitec Nutrition
| 100mg caffeine capsules.
|
| Pretty much the least bitter powder I tried, and the
| effects come on slow and steady.
|
| I'm really curious what they do differently when extracting
| caffeine.
|
| Most other brands have a comparably more dry powder that
| hits like a truck for me even at (supposedly) the same
| dosage.
| swader999 wrote:
| Coffee might bind to the cream more and then absorb slower. I
| notice with a teaspoon of butter I get a much less jittery
| experience. (The bullet coffee thing).
| pixelbreaker wrote:
| possibly the lipids in cow's milk slow the ingestion of
| caffeine. depends on the oat milk you drink and how much fat it
| has in its ingredients.
| scns wrote:
| Oat milk has added vegetable oils like sunflower, which have
| higher amounts of unsaturated fats i think. Someone mentioned
| coconut oil, which is high in satarated fat, could make a
| difference.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Probably something to do with the fat. There's something called
| bulletproof coffee or butter coffee where they add
| butter/coconut oil/mct oil and I think it's supposed to satiate
| you more as well as keep you from getting all jittery.
| GNOMES wrote:
| Copious amounts of coffee + ltheanine was very popular on my
| college campus around midterms/finals.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| I used them heavily in college, then less in my early
| professional life, then more heavily when I had very young
| kids, now back to what feels like a reasonable 100mg caffeine +
| 200mg L-theanine a day.
|
| My life improved significantly when I realized that I was
| drinking soda, energy drinks, or coffee for the caffeine, not
| the taste or "nutrition": they're all extremely acidic, and
| some are extremely sugary.
|
| Instead of drinking my drugs, I drink from a water bottle and
| take a slow-release pill each morning with my multivitamin.
| sunshineforever wrote:
| That's such a great idea... I've done this with cigarettes
| and I've had similar thoughts about how I no longer enjoy
| coffee either.
| thomasfl wrote:
| I simply can't understand why it is still uncommon to sleep at
| the office, while they give this psychoactive drug called
| caffeine for free.
|
| According to wikipedia, caffeine is the world's most widely
| consumed psychoactive drug.
| mbil wrote:
| Since working from home due to the pandemic I've been able to
| wean myself completely off caffeine. To not get tired in the
| afternoons, I take a 15-20 minute nap each day after lunch. I
| think this has been good for me, and I'm worried that when I
| have to go back to the office I'll be dependent on coffee
| again.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| I wish I could nap. For me, a nap turns one normal day into
| two short days - a bright productive one and a dark groggy
| one. I've even tried the coffee-then-20-minute-nap method to
| no avail.
| gknoy wrote:
| My wife and I are the same way -- we never seem to feel
| refreshed from midday naps. Is there something we're doing
| wrong? :)
| dalmo3 wrote:
| > For me, a nap turns one normal day into two short days -
| a bright productive one and a dark groggy one.
|
| Same here, but the productive one is _after_ the nap!
| unmole wrote:
| It's fairly common in China. Sure you have to 996 but that
| includes an hour for napping post lunch.
| ehnto wrote:
| First time hearing of 996, for anyone else curious that's a
| 9am-9pm 6 days a week work schedule.
| ValentineC wrote:
| Do also check out https://996.icu/#/en_US :)
| rpmisms wrote:
| That's disgusting.
| swader999 wrote:
| You need to master the art of sleeping in your office chair
| with your back to the door. Keep an interesting piece of paper
| handy to be reading when someone comes in instead of staring at
| a blank screen.
| newsbinator wrote:
| If you sleep at the office you're wasting time and slacking.
|
| If you can keep your eyes open while staring at an open email
| you're being productive.
| jack_riminton wrote:
| This guy corporates
| toxik wrote:
| Please don't turn this place into reddit.
| jack_riminton wrote:
| This guy hacks
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Sadly this is the truth. It's all about perceived work and
| not actual work.
| bitshiftfaced wrote:
| I have a theory that the jittery/anxious feeling people say they
| get from caffeine is mainly due to the size of the dose and
| "quickness" of it. If you find that theanine fixes it, then
| great. But I'd also suggest trying 100 mg time-release caffeine
| and see how it goes. You might be surprised. This also has the
| benefit of needing less total caffeine while lasting you longer
| through the day. (Just a heads up: many brands only say they're
| time-release but don't seem to actually have the
| coating/capsule/matrix that you'd expect from an actual time-
| release pill.)
| toxik wrote:
| Agreed, if I drink a lot of strong coffee fast, I'm basically
| shaking for the next hour or so.
|
| My solution is dilution. I put about four cups worth of coffee
| into the filter, and then 1.3 L water in the tank. The result
| is very weak coffee that you can drink throughout the day,
| keeping you mildly caffeinated and hydrated simultaneously.
|
| If you're making coffee for people who can't accept watery
| coffee, just brew normally and add water afterwards. The
| Italians in the office will curse your name, but that's just a
| sign you're doing it right.
| eloff wrote:
| I don't like watery coffee, so I mix mine 2/3 decaf. I have
| 4-5 cups throughout the morning. It keeps it a nice, even
| caffeine hit.
| ehnto wrote:
| The Italians in your office would have wanted espresso!
|
| That's actually an interesting point, we're generally talking
| about coffee as if it's all the same, but I see people here
| talking about instant grounds, drip coffee and then there is
| espresso, I'm sure they all work out quite different. If
| you're used to grinding your own beans you'll know different
| beans have different caffeine amounts, and different
| extraction methods all have different yields.
|
| Where I am it's all espresso, thanks to Italian immigrants
| bringing over stovetop espresso kettles in the 40s and
| jumpstarting our now incumbent coffee culture. I've never
| even seen a drip coffee machine, it's espresso machines in
| petrol stations, offices, cafes, restaurants, people's homes.
|
| If I pull an espresso shot for too long it's going to have
| more caffeine in it than had it pulled really quickly, even
| though it's the same amount of coffee/water solution in the
| cup. So one person's four cups a day is rarely going to match
| another persons four cups a day. I'm sure it's the same for
| instant coffee brands or grinds too, when you take it all
| into consideration it's going to be hard to know what
| caffeine intake anyone has.
| toxik wrote:
| Right but there are standard serving sizes so "four cups
| worth" is a well-defined amount, subject to cultural
| variations I'm sure.
|
| What you call stovetop espresso we call mocha, which is
| decidedly not espresso in my book. I also find the amount
| of caffeine in espresso laughable, but I'm also
| Scandinavian and we drink some pretty dark coffee
| apparently.
| ehnto wrote:
| At least where I am, mocha is coffee + chocolate + milk,
| which is strange, because another common name of the
| stovetop espresso machine is a "Moka Pot", named after
| the Yemeni city of Mocha. A confusing fun fact for the
| day.
|
| My main point was that there isn't a well defined amount
| of caffeine in any measure of 'four cups'. If you have
| four cups of Moka Pot coffee and I have four cups of your
| dark coffee, I'm going to be buzzing while you'll you be
| cursing the Alfonso Bialetti for daring to invent the
| device. Even if you consider 'shots' of coffee to be a
| measure, each bean/blend/grind will deliver different
| mounts of coffee. I think it's just worth noting if we're
| trying to discuss the effects of caffeine, as people tend
| to speak in cups per day. It sounds like you would be
| very disappointed with four cups of my coffee!
| ValentineC wrote:
| Adding to the confusion: there's also the Mocha varietal
| for Arabica coffee beans. :)
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mocha_coffee_bean
|
| This looks like an excellent writeup for anyone
| interested: https://dailycoffeenews.com/2019/02/07/the-
| coffee-roasters-c...
| ehnto wrote:
| I drink my coffee over the course of a few hours, if I have to
| slam it down, say I suddenly need to leave the office, it makes
| me feel incredibly anxious and shaken. Taken slowly it has no
| noticeable effect except to my ability to get tired a tonight,
| I drink it entirely for the taste so that's actually a bummer.
| I've considered switching to decaf.
| zachruss92 wrote:
| This isn't super surprising based on my personal experience. I
| take theanine in the morning to help clear my mind before working
| and also before bed to stop my mind from racing.
|
| I have found that taking caffeine and other prescription
| stimulants(Adderall)have a negative effect in some ways
| increasing my anxiety or otherwise hindering my ability of
| outside-the-box thinking. Subsequently I have stopped taking
| Adderall completely for about a month now and I feel a ton
| better.
| mombul wrote:
| I see a lot of people say "I take theanine" but what do you
| mean exactly? You just drink tea or does it come in other
| forms?
| singhrac wrote:
| L-theanine is readily available in supplement form in the US
| (e.g. $6 for a bottle of 100 pills). I don't take it
| regularly but that's mostly because I haven't examined the
| evidence carefully.
| lm28469 wrote:
| Probably supplements. Be careful about what you buy though,
| internet is full of random "made in china" supplements
| containing god knows what
| meowkit wrote:
| It comes in natural things like mushrooms / green tea, but
| its also synthesized in capsules / powder / products like
| neurogum.
| hfjtntnfjfk wrote:
| This is the kind of paper that yesterday article about how we
| should assume all medical research is fraudulent warned about.
| v77 wrote:
| Yeah, holy crap, if your alarm bells aren't ringing from the
| moment you start reading a paper like this by now I don't know
| what to tell you.
| bodhi_mind wrote:
| Alarm bells? I'm not sure I follow. What's "this" kind of
| paper? Their methods seem rational. Many references on
| previous research are mentioned. Do you think we're being
| gaslighted or something?
|
| I wouldn't use this paper to make life decisions on my mental
| health or assume theanine will give me super powers, but
| that's with all research. Nothing exists in a vacuum and
| shouldn't be interpreted that way. Overall, I'd say this is
| potentially interesting for someone researching these
| chemicals.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Has anyone actually read the paper? I hit a paywall.
|
| And the abstract doesn't even give enough information to
| describe what they actually found. It gives p-values, but not
| effect sizes.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| Googling the title didn't find me any full-text PDFs, but
| sci-hub should have it.
| hfjtntnfjfk wrote:
| N=36 and testing protocol of 4 servings over a short period
| of time is all you need to know.
|
| Even if you assume all they find is true, the effect could
| disappear or change into something else one month after
| initiation (dose accommodation, etc...)
| maininformer wrote:
| "As you know from teaching introductory statistics, 30 is
| infinity." -Gelman
| soperj wrote:
| Just wanted to say that this quote is hilarious. I tried
| to look it up, but couldn't find anything. What's it
| from?
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Andrew Gelman, a semi-famous statistician. Author of some
| good textbooks. I'm not sure of the original source, but
| here's a list of chestnuts from his website: http://www.s
| tat.columbia.edu/~gelman/book/gelman_quotes.pdf
| gerbilly wrote:
| > N=36
|
| This is just a cheap shot.
|
| I'd be more impressed if you demonstrated why the sample
| size lacks the power to demonstrate an effect. (Use math
| and show your work.)
|
| Also, it's a common mistake to assume that if the sample
| size were 3 million instead that the study would be more
| 'valid.'
| mumblemumble wrote:
| > I'd be more impressed if you demonstrated why the
| sample size lacks the power to demonstrate an effect.
|
| Unless and until someone in this thread gets a copy of
| the paper so we can find out the effect sizes involved,
| we simply aren't able to objectively assess the study's
| statistical power.
|
| But even then, I'm perhaps more worried about the file
| drawer effect. The type 1 error rate is fixed at 5%, n=36
| studies are cheap, and p>.05 studies never get published.
| And we're looking at exactly one paper here. As far as
| I'm concerned, you can't have credibility without
| replicability.
| kmlevitt wrote:
| It's not just about raw numbers though, you need to
| consider the experimental design, which looks really
| tight in this case.
|
| It's a repeated measures study and from the looks of it
| all subjects spent time in each of the four treatments +
| control, so it's direct comparisons of the same people in
| each condition. They used three separate measures.
| Accounting for all that, they are working with something
| like 540 data points, and the fact it's the same people
| in each set is a nice little feature for direct
| comparisons rather than a limitation. They even double
| blinded everything. All of that has to count for
| something.
| hattmall wrote:
| There's pharma companies worth over a billion dollars
| based on studies with a smaller sample sizes so I don't
| see N=36 as a deal breaker especially when there's very
| little money incentive here.
| regularfry wrote:
| What you'd hope is that someone would use that result to
| get funding for a bigger study. I've got a lot of
| sympathy for the sceptical position, but you've got to
| start somewhere.
| p_j_w wrote:
| >N=36
|
| Since you seem so certain, I have to ask: have you done
| the math to show that 36 isn't enough to tell you
| anything in this case?
|
| Depending on the effect size and probability
| distributions involved, N=36 can give you a pretty
| respectable picture. It's not good enough to be the final
| word on the matter, but most papers aren't aiming to be
| that, nor should they. It seems to me these researchers
| were trying to scientifically test an idea that floats
| around coffee communities (I've heard specifically that
| theanine in your coffee will do this). There's no reason
| to "go big" right away when doing such a study. You start
| small to see if there's any hope for the idea, then try
| to get funding for a larger study by publishing.
|
| >4 servings over a short period of time
|
| The definition of "a short period of time" is relative.
| In this study, what you're defining as a short period of
| time seems ludicrous. The participants were given the
| servings on entirely different *days*, which is far past
| the amount of time that caffeine or theanine are active.
|
| Finally, the article on HN the other day about bad
| research was not about small sample sizes, it was about
| outright fraudulent data. It's certainly possible that
| this study is a fraud, but, even if we grant that the
| sample size is small and the delay between administration
| is too short, that's not evidence of fraud.
| [deleted]
| bodhi_mind wrote:
| https://twin.sci-
| hub.se/6118/daefd0e8ce13e7983e15445a67e567a...
| [deleted]
| cipherzero wrote:
| What was the article from yesterday? I feel like I missed
| something helpful.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27884233
| derbOac wrote:
| That's why I usually pay most attention to meta-analyses, if
| the studies aren't huge and preregistered:
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24946991/
|
| That meta-analysis kinda suggests theanine doesn't really have
| much effect; caffeine improves attention.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| chalst wrote:
| Couldn't fit title and date into 80 chars, so the story title is
| edited: Caffeine and theanine exert opposite
| effects on attention under emotional arousal, Grace E Giles et
| al., Canadian Journal of Physiological Pharmacology, January
| 2017.
| 0xTJ wrote:
| I'd call the current title of this post blatantly wrong. In
| common use, "emotional arousal" and "arousal" have _very_
| different meanings.
| nkozyra wrote:
| Agreed; in fact, it makes two points that have different
| impact:
|
| > Consumed together, caffeine and theanine exert similar
| cognitive effects to that of caffeine alone, but exert
| opposite effects on arousal, in that caffeine accentuates and
| theanine mitigates physiological and felt stress responses.
|
| This is inline with the anecdotal evidence about theanine's
| mitigating effect on caffeine & stress.
| benogorek wrote:
| So is it fair to say that with tea relative to coffee, you
| get all the cognitive benefits and none of the arousal
| downsides (e.g, anxiety)?
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| In my experience it's been that tea gives me far less
| anxiety, but still a nonzero amount. It doesn't wipe it
| out entirely, but it reduces the physiological symptoms
| of anxiety.
| tracedddd wrote:
| Not none. The downsides are moderately decreased in my
| experience. I'm not sure the amount in tea, I suppose it
| varies greatly, but I've tried several different
| l-Theanine doses and caffeine mostly still feels like
| caffeine, just slightly modified.
| sunshineforever wrote:
| In my experience, many of the negative effects are
| greatly reduced. When my dad first brought back a box of
| PG Tips from a work trip in London, I discovered I could
| drink like, ten cups and still function. Only moderately
| burned out.
|
| If I had drank the same amount of coffee I'd've needed to
| lay down. It was great for all nighters playing Halo
| multiplayer.
|
| All this time I thought tea's superiority was due to it
| having "more hydration" or something. This is so
| interesting to know!
| sunshineforever wrote:
| I understood "arousal" to be the emotional sort of arousal,
| but I see your point.
| [deleted]
| TheFreim wrote:
| Almost skipped an otherwise interesting topic because of
| this.
| chalst wrote:
| I'm still able to edit the title: care to suggest another
| version that fits within 80 chars? The title alone fits, one
| char to spare, but I didn't want to pass off a 4-y.o. paper
| as if it was pharmacological news.
| xVedun wrote:
| Possibly something like this: Caffeine and theanine have
| opposed effect on attention when stressed (2017)
|
| Based on the definition of emotional arousal, stress isn't
| 100% accurate, but perhaps better than aroused.
|
| [1] https://www.thefreedictionary.com/emotional+arousal
| mkw2000 wrote:
| I was taking theanine pills for a while and I definitely felt
| like it had a positive impact on my overall mood
| JohnWhigham wrote:
| I've seen this in many places; people will take L-theanine to
| counteract any jittery effects of caffeine, but I never noticed
| anything. What L-theanine is helpful for is going to sleep and
| calming one's mind.
| srean wrote:
| Indeed. When I am over-caffeinated I am energized but not
| exactly effective. L-theanine centers my mind.
| danielam wrote:
| I have. I can drink green tea (including strong matcha), which
| does contain l-theanine, probably daily, but I cannot drink
| coffee daily for more than maybe 2 weeks without experiencing
| adverse affects. Even one cup of coffee can leave me agitated.
| Supplementing coffee with l-theanine completely eliminates
| agitation.
| fighterpilot wrote:
| Black tea is also very high in l-theanine. Regular green tea
| is not, but matcha (which you consume) is as well.
| danielam wrote:
| I can also drink black tea for longer durations than
| unsupplemented coffee. When I drink green tea, my typical
| choice is sencha, but it is not nearly as concentrated as
| the matcha. So I suspect the caffeine is therefore lower
| than my typical cup of coffee, hence the reduced agitation?
| zamfi wrote:
| > Regular green tea is not
|
| Not...very high? Just "regular" high?
| amelius wrote:
| Can you drink cola without adverse effects?
|
| Because I can. And coffee gives me issues after a week or
| two.
|
| Therefore something seems wrong about giving caffeine all the
| blame.
| [deleted]
| danielam wrote:
| I don't drink soft drinks generally, and certainly not in
| those quantities, but I vaguely recall feeling anxious
| after drinking cola before.
|
| > Therefore something seems wrong about giving caffeine all
| the blame.
|
| Possibly, but in this case, my primary comparison is
| between coffee and coffee with l-theanine and that one
| difference by itself produces a very noticeable difference
| in effect. I do not know what else in coffee could be
| producing jitters other than the caffeine. Or what in the
| cola could perhaps be inhibiting the effects of caffeine.
| fighterpilot wrote:
| > And coffee gives me issues after a week or two.
|
| Have you tried drinking an equivalent amount of cola (in
| terms of caffeine dosage) every day for a week or two?
| amelius wrote:
| Yes, I think so. I drank a lot of (diet) cola at some
| point, like 1 gallon a day. Never got any issues similar
| to the ones I got from coffee.
| bagacrap wrote:
| A gallon of diet coke has less caffeine than one
| Starbucks venti drip coffee (~380mg vs ~400mg).
|
| How much coffee do/did you drink per day?
| amelius wrote:
| Like 3-5 regular cups a day (not Starbucks). Then after
| two weeks even 1 cup became too much. Switching to a
| gallon of cola then didn't cause any problems.
| tylermenezes wrote:
| I am extremely sensitive to caffeine, it makes me super jittery
| and I can feel my heart race.
|
| For the last 4 years I've been adding 100mg of pure caffeine
| powder and 125mg L-theanine to a non-caffinated morning
| beverage. I even had someone secretly add or not add the
| L-theanine without telling me for a while, so it's as well
| controlled as an n=1 study can be.
|
| The difference is pretty night-and-day for me, but obviously
| ymmv.
|
| There's a lot of genetic difference in caffeine processing, and
| I happen to have almost every genetic variant associated with
| high sensitivity I could find studied.
| bserge wrote:
| Taurine and GABA synergize similarly with caffeine.
| deregulateMed wrote:
| I wish caffeine made me feel anything.
|
| I would need over 24 oz of coffee for anything.
|
| But at that point I'm pushing potentially unsafe levels..
|
| I wish we were taught more about taking drugs. Use caffeine
| since it's legal, for an example.
|
| "Don't have caffeine 2 days in a row. Ask yourself if you
| really need the energy or are thirsty/bored. Etc...."
|
| You could apply the same to alcohol to reduce alcoholism.
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| >I wish caffeine made me feel anything.
|
| (intentionally NOT quoting the remainder of your post)
|
| The only time I ever felt anything from caffine:
|
| I was working the midnight shift. (At a service industry job,
| there were no customers so it was dead.)
|
| I took: 2 caffeine pills 4 coffee's
| 2 cans of coke
|
| It worked. I was very jittery, and had the shakes. But I
| survived the shift, and by the time the shift was over (7am)
| the sun was up, and I had a 1 hour drive to get home.
|
| I was also surprised to learn while driving Truck, that some
| US States outlawed caffeine pills. (Ohio) It might have been
| available at a drug store though, I only had access to truck
| stops.
| n8cpdx wrote:
| You might have adhd. I fall into extremely high doses because
| a high level of stimulant use is needed to get to a "normal"
| baseline.
|
| Of course tolerance is also a factor. I've been reducing my
| intake, for a while it was well over 1g/day, and that wasn't
| really about trying to "feel" anything.
| pineconewarrior wrote:
| Anecdotally, I have found l-theanine supplementation at night to
| work very well for insomnia and restful sleep.
| ianai wrote:
| Same, though it does seem to make dreams more vivid. Probably
| important to be careful of dosing. Less may be more.
| ryeights wrote:
| Source? If this is true, it would explain a lot for me!
| ianai wrote:
| JRE had someone on recently about neuroscience. He said he
| cautions people against taking theanine for sleep if
| they're prone to sleep walking.
| eridan2 wrote:
| which brand do you use?
| pineconewarrior wrote:
| I typically grab whatever is reasonably priced. Right now I
| have the NOW branded 100mg capsules. I avoid the larger
| dosages for reasons mentioned in sibling comments.
|
| AFAIK it is not one of the supplements which requires careful
| brand selection (like a magnesium supplement).
| Clewza313 wrote:
| Looks like Hong Kongers may be onto a good thing with yuenyeung,
| the local blend of coffee and tea:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuenyeung
| eternalban wrote:
| "Tea is perceived as more relaxing than coffee, even though
| both contain caffeine. L-theanine in tea may account for the
| difference."
|
| Tea already contains both substances. Adding coffee would only
| up the caffeine levels + whatever else is in coffee. Unless I'm
| misunderstanding the abstract, this seems to argue for only
| drinking tea to get both the "cognitive effects" and the
| calming effect of L-theanine.
| p_j_w wrote:
| Some people, myself included, prefer the taste of coffee,
| though. So if I can just add some flavorless theanine and get
| some nice cognitive effects out of the deal, that's great.
| weird-eye-issue wrote:
| You wouldn't mix tea in your coffee to do that. You would
| just buy L-Theanine powder and mix it in. It's not
| flavorless but due to the small quantity needed you
| shouldn't taste it once mixed in your coffee
| p_j_w wrote:
| Sure, but the folks in HK might enjoy that particular
| mix, right? I'm just trying to say that mixing in tea
| with your coffee isn't pointless or run counter to this
| particular study.
| eternalban wrote:
| Coffee has other side-effects. If you are trying to quit
| smoking, for example, the task at hand will be far easier
| if you do not drink coffee. Nicotine breaks down caffeine
| and smokers who are coffee drinkers are subjected to
| heightened agitation due to increased caffeine intake
| when they stop smoking. Psychologically, this higher
| level of agitation is misinterpreted as nicotine
| cravings. It's a vicious circle.
|
| Fair disclosure: I love the aroma of coffee and am a
| coffee drinker and a smoker. They are like bad friends
| for whom I have developed fond feelings.
| ValentineC wrote:
| Not just Hong Kong, but Singapore and Malaysia too. :)
|
| It's also _much_ better with processed milk -- usually
| condensed (lots of added sugar) [1] by default, or
| evaporated (no added sugar) [2].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporated_milk
| marttt wrote:
| Somewhat related: In his recent book "This is Your Mind on
| Plants", Michael Pollan also discusses caffeine addiction.
| Transcript of an interview with him on Tim Ferriss' blog:
|
| https://tim.blog/2021/06/30/michael-pollan-this-is-your-mind...
|
| I've been off caffeine and yerba mate (of which the yerba I
| consumed daily for the past 9 or so years) for two weeks. Feels
| really great, I admit being somewhat less sharp mentally (for
| now), but I still get everything relevant done. And -- maybe yet
| I feel kind of more... mentally balanced? Imagine having less
| thoughts throughout the day, but the ones you have, you'll like
| more. :)
|
| It's like my energy levels are much more consistent, no sudden
| drops throughout the day -- and that's even when I'm doing heavy
| physical work. (I'm a full-time forestry worker, tree planter,
| brush cutter these days -- now not even thinking about the usual
| midday yerba mate kick I used to rely on.)
|
| The tiredness that sets in at night also feels much more calming.
| So IMO it's a highly recommended shift overall -- I guess just
| the first 4-5-6-7 days without coffee/strong tea may be really
| hard.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Curious, do you use anything else? I like trying out various
| ideas on long or difficult hikes. One category that
| consistently helps is the anti-inflammatory category.
|
| I've also tried some pretty interesting nootropics including
| one that was designed to support work in extreme environments,
| and the difference in feeling from caffeine was pretty wild. (I
| did have some pretty fascinating but unwanted side effects
| while getting the dosage dialed in, basically what I'd call
| super soldier mode, so I hesitate to mention it by name...)
| marttt wrote:
| Nope, nothing else. I have been heavily relying on yerba mate
| -- one sip or tiny cup works wonders during heavy tree
| planting sessions. This has always been my secret weapon,
| because, in contrast to coffee, it doesn't seem to cause a
| feeling of fluid loss.
|
| Also, during tree planting, I only occasionally eat a few
| carrots or other vegetables to help me finish the day. After
| that, a well-deserved meal will follow.
|
| Disclaimer, though: I have experimented with intermittent
| fasting for several years, so I suppose my body has already
| adapted to long periods of hunger. Be careful with this
| stuff, though, and don't listen to my silly advice.
| actually_a_dog wrote:
| I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're getting at, but,
| in the anti-inflammatory category, glucosamine and aspirin
| are both great, and have some pretty good science behind
| them.
| danenania wrote:
| Do you think doing a job involving more physical than mental
| labor made it easier to get through the withdrawal? It seems
| like pushing through the stupor is tough but doable for
| physical stuff, whereas with mental work (like programming) you
| can be pretty much knocked out of commission until the symptoms
| subside.
| marttt wrote:
| > Do you think doing a job involving more physical than
| mental labor made it easier to get through the withdrawal?
|
| Very probably, yes. IIRC, I have actually tried quitting
| yerba/coffee a few times earlier as well while doing mostly
| mental work. And I always failed. Currently my days in the
| forest consist of several 1.5h brush cutting sessions --
| meaning, during that time, I am in nonstop movement, cutting
| the brush, unable to do anything else. During a break between
| the sessions, I am usually heavily dehydrated, so my body
| just wants a lot of water. I think I've even come to dislike
| the idea of having coffee or (really surprisingly) yerba mate
| at that point.
|
| Currently I usually work 3x1.5h sessions every day, plus
| water drinking breaks and saw blade sharpening, so it's
| around 5-6 hours in the woods every day. And, in the forest
| you have no coffee shops, no other shops, no fridges. And, if
| you manage not to take coffee with you, there's simply no
| coffee at all nearby! I suppose that's the essential part of
| the whole trick.
|
| I plan to return to mental work for the winter. I do think
| staying off yerba/coffee will be a struggle again for indoor
| work and/or cold season.
| swader999 wrote:
| Neat to hear from a planter, you guys are at the front of
| the pack when it comes to maximising physical performance.
|
| Are you working in BC right now?
| amacneil wrote:
| You don't have to quit caffeine cold turkey. You can just
| ramp down from n cups of coffee/day to 1 cup, then switch to
| n cups of tea/day (black or green) and ramp down to 1 cup,
| then switch to low-caffeine or caffeine-free tea, then stop
| entirely.
|
| Have been off caffeine for several years now. Took probably a
| couple months to reach a point where I felt comfortable going
| into an interview or important meeting without it. Now I
| don't miss it at all, but if I ever do have it, a cup of
| decaf coffee will have me buzzing for hours, and an espresso
| will make me extremely uncomfortable and jittery - crazy that
| that used to be my baseline intake.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| Now I don't miss it at all, but if I ever do have
| it, a cup of decaf coffee will have me buzzing for
| hours, and an espresso will make me extremely
| uncomfortable and jittery
|
| I think you're rather lucky! Whenever I successfully wean
| myself away from caffeine... one reason I can never stay
| away is because when I go back to it, it feels _so good._
|
| However I feel lucky myself in a different way. Never been
| tempted by harder drugs because caffeine has taught me I'd
| never stand a chance against them lol.
| amacneil wrote:
| Addiction is real :)
| JohnBooty wrote:
| Not the person you asked but: absolutely yeah.
|
| Coding and other such mental work is very tough for me unless
| a lot of factors line up. But I can stay focused on physical
| tasks even if I'm feeling like garbage - even something like
| tennis that's both mental+physical.
|
| edit: Are you talking about sudden "cold turkey" quitting +
| the subsequent withdrawal? The answer to that is _hell no_ --
| if I try anything that foolish I 'm really in for some hurt.
| Luckily as others have noted, there's no need to experience
| withdrawal if you taper dosage down over a week or two.
| kossTKR wrote:
| Exactly, i find mental work close to impossible a few days
| after quitting caffeine. I can do social stuff to an extend
| and get manual labor stuff done, but not anything requiring
| initiative and self discipline.
| navi0 wrote:
| I'd be interested in talking with you about a project I'm
| working on (forestry-related, not caffeine-related), if you're
| open to it.
|
| Info@madronus.com
| Deutscher wrote:
| Does anyone else suffer from GI issues like epigastric pain
| (acidity) brought on by tea/coffee consumption? How do you deal
| with it?
| nikk1 wrote:
| I have GERD and take esomeprazole daily. I used to take
| omeprazole but it gave me headaches
| DantesKite wrote:
| I don't suffer GI issues because of coffee consumption, but I
| do have GI issues that I'm currently resolving with Visbiome.
|
| It's expensive, but it's really the only probiotic that has
| ever made a difference for me.
|
| My acid reflux is almost completely gone because of it.
| paraph1n wrote:
| Could you talk more about what your acid reflux was like? I'm
| curious about finding new ways to treat my own. Been on
| 20-40mg of (es)omeprazole daily for a decade.
| abawany wrote:
| For coffee, I've seen people recommend putting in a dash of
| baking soda in the drink to reduce the acidity though I haven't
| tried this. I also tried some of the low-acid coffees and they
| were fine though the flavor is in no way comparable to my
| favorite poison :). Drinking these beverages when you are not
| expecting to recline (e.g. in the morning and early afternoon)
| may also help.
|
| However, if you feel these symptoms are pretty bad, it is worth
| going to a gastroenterologist - chronic upper GI acidity can
| lead to GERD and that can lead to esophageal cancer.
| zug_zug wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine#Effects
| taeric wrote:
| Any recommendations on this self experiments to see how much
| coffee does or does not affect you?
|
| I ask because I don't get any high or rush from coffee, that I
| notice. I would be interested in tracking signs looking for
| impact. But I mostly just like the taste.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| I guess it depends on what you're looking for?
|
| For a subtle effect like this, I would argue that it's not
| actually possible to experiment on yourself in a meaningful
| way. If you don't use a double blind protocol, then any real
| effect is going to be completely overwhelmed by things like the
| placebo effect. And the absolute minimum number of people
| required to implement a double blind protocol is three: one to
| assign treatment and analyze the data, another to administer
| the treatment and collect the data, and one person to actually
| get experimented on.
|
| For this particular experiment, I'd go a step further and say
| say that the absolute minimum is 4, because you want to make
| sure that both alternatives are being tested under conditions
| where it's the participant's first time performing the
| cognitive task you're using for evaluation. That's only
| possible if you have separate participants for the treatment
| and control.
| taeric wrote:
| I was asking more in the general case for coffee.
|
| I mean, I know basically how many beers will get me drunk and
| am well aware of the times I drink. Coffee, though? I read
| tons of folks saying it affects them... But it feels similar
| to the folks saying vitamin d improved their life. I am not
| claiming they are false, but I am claiming I don't feel it.
| nick__m wrote:
| It's hard to tell without knowing of strong your coffee is,
| your pink grapefruit intake and most importantly your
| sensitivity to caffeine.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| I don't have a source for this, but I've heard that coffee
| legitimately does affect some people differently. Because
| some people have a gene for an enzyme that metabolizes
| caffeine very effectively, and others don't.
|
| Which, that may not even be true. In which case, I don't
| mind. It was all by way of illustrating, be careful trying
| to extrapolate from a sample size of 1. In fact, just don't
| do it. Conversely, don't assume an aggregate statistic
| accurately describes anybody in particular.
| taeric wrote:
| Would love to read a bit more on that. If anyone has a
| good source on variation of caffeine susceptibility, I'd
| be grateful!
|
| And the point on being careful extrapolating makes sense.
| I will work on that.
| nick__m wrote:
| This will interest you "Interindividual Differences in
| Caffeine Metabolism and Factors Driving Caffeine
| Consumption" :
| https://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/70/2/384
| hfjtntnfjfk wrote:
| How's your sleep?
|
| Once I stopped drinking caffeinated soda my sleep quality
| improved massively. I was drinking it at least 8 hours before
| sleep, but apparently caffeine works close to 12 hours.
| taeric wrote:
| Fine? I have apnea, so that dominates any sleep concerns I
| have. But, I've never used an alarm clock in my life and I
| can still reliably wake up on time every day.
| [deleted]
| tylermenezes wrote:
| If you have a company you can ship it to, you can still buy
| pure caffeine powder from bulk supplement retailers. (No one
| will sell to individuals anymore because of the safety risk.)
|
| That makes it a lot easier to meter dosage for an experiment.
| You can also try to get consistent caffeine by using a
| consistent, fresh bean/roast, high quality burr grinder, and a
| brix meter to check extraction %.
| taeric wrote:
| I have little doubt that pure caffeine would impact me. My
| question is on the rush from coffee. To me, it is just a
| tasty drink. I don't feel more awake after it. At all.
| Dragging-Syrup wrote:
| 36 participants on metabolic processes study seems like a small
| sample size
| dylan604 wrote:
| Not defending ridiculous claims based on small sample sets, but
| isn't this how it's supposed to work? You run some tests and
| notice a pattern and develop an hypothesis, and then continue
| to expand the test to see if it holds true? Then other groups
| perform the same tests to hopefully receive the same results so
| that we end up with known facts. Essentially, the definition of
| scientific method.
| SantalBlush wrote:
| Yeah, but people aren't actually that interested in the
| scientific method here. Criticizing things is an easy way to
| appear smart, and that's the main point.
|
| Empirical research has never been about some true/false
| binary; that's a myth perpetuated on HN. It has always been
| about strength of evidence, improving models, and opening
| paths for future research. I've seen people dismiss case
| studies by decrying that their n=1, for god's sake.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| I've been mixin L-theanine to my office coffee for years. It
| might be pure placebo, but I feel like I can concentrate better
| with it.
| DantesKite wrote:
| How's the taste? Notice any huge changes?
| mullen wrote:
| Although slightly higher in cost, you can get Theanine in
| pill form.
| gqz wrote:
| L-Theanine is somewhat sweet and... chalky, perhaps. It's a
| little savory/funky too. Not altogether an unpleasant
| flavour. I occasionally take a teaspoon of unpacked
| L-Theanine powder and stir it into a glass of water. It
| doesn't mix very readily, but once it does, it's barely
| noticeable (at least to my palate). I don't notice it when I
| repeat this process with green or black tea, so I would be
| surprised if anyone could detect it in coffee.
| cutthegrass2 wrote:
| Articles mentioning caffeine and or theanine always remind me i'm
| drinking too much coffee and need to cut down.
|
| For what it's worth though, I certainly notice the effects of
| theanine when I take it, usually 200mg upon waking before my
| first coffee.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| The lady at the Korean grocery store seemed suspicious when I
| bought the last tea set they had. (They hadn't sold one in
| years.)
|
| I think of it as a "high performance" teapot because I can heat
| water in a kettle and use Sencha + Matcha to have delicious and
| relaxing green tea in about 2 minutes and 30 seconds. I wash out
| the metal filter and it's ready to go again.
| Darmody wrote:
| I've been taking tabs with 100mg of caffeine and 250mg of
| l-theanine after lunch and I found it better than a large coffee.
| ianai wrote:
| Do you take anything for sleep?
| Darmody wrote:
| No. I've taken melatonin in the past and I don't know if it
| worked or it was just placebo because I changed also some
| habits like not going to bed with my tablet to watch Youtube.
| After taking the pill I didn't stare at any screen and I kept
| the lights as low as possible to help my body produce more
| melatonin.
|
| Some "rituals" before sleeping are helpful too, like turning
| every thing off and drinking a cup of linden tea or valerian
| tea and then going to bed. Even a rooibos or anything without
| caffeine works, the important part is the ritual where you
| relax and prepare your body for the night.
|
| In addition to that I found out that a little bit of
| intensive workout helps a lot. You don't need a 10km run or
| to light weights for 2 hours. Just put some tension into your
| body. You can't do a push up? Do half and stay there hanging
| with some tension on your muscles. Stretch your body until
| you feel the burn for a while, specially legs and back. There
| are some yoga posses where you stretch and also use your
| strength and they don't require any experience. And of
| course, don't hurt yourself doing more than what your body
| can take.
| hammock wrote:
| Theanine is supposed to help with sleep too
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