[HN Gopher] Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list...
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       Ask HN: for senior positions is it advisable to list side projects
       on your CV?
        
       I worked really hard on two side projects during the pandemic that
       I am quite proud of (here you can take a peek if you like):
       www.hopupon.com, www.audiobookmate.com  When I was younger I used
       to list side projects on my cv and employers used to take notice. I
       find now they don't seem to care, usually are only interested in
       employment history and tech tests.  I also wonder whether side
       projects speak to the fact that you're not concerned enough with
       your employer's bottom line. I remember when Ken Cosgrove, in Mad
       Men, had a side gig as an author and got published in a magazine.
       Roger Sterling told him, quite sternly, he had to choose between
       the job and the gig.  The thing is I would actually appreciate if a
       potential employer asked me about the above two projects. I think
       they demonstrate some of my skills and would be interesting to
       discuss.  What do you guys think: Do you guys still list your side
       projects? What about for jobs more senior than senior developer?
        
       Author : jcroll
       Score  : 46 points
       Date   : 2021-07-21 12:18 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
       | throwaway_2047 wrote:
       | To me it is a huge plus. There are a lot to tell by looking at
       | the side projects. At earlier stage start-ups, where interview
       | process is not that rigid, it helps interviewer (at least for me)
       | to gauge many aspect at once. Candidates love talking about their
       | own project than anything. For me side project is a shortcut to
       | peek into applicant's mind
        
       | amalfra wrote:
       | Have the right pedigree and brand in resume is what all it
       | matters in my experience for getting interviews easily. And all
       | these with interview skills and having good profile itself would
       | make interview round go really well and for people to even
       | consider you worthy. From my experience here in India all these
       | right credentials matter really more than Github and all these
       | hacker type things.
        
       | intellectronica wrote:
       | Yes, sometimes, but you need to have a good sense for what is
       | actually impressive to the people reviewing you, not just impress
       | yourself (and you are the easiest person to impress).
       | 
       | Merely the fact that you put in the time to build something isn't
       | going to be that impressive for someone considering you for a
       | senior role. They'll want to know that your work was valuable to
       | others, that it had impact. So if you just built something for
       | fun or as an exercise, I don't think it's worth showing it. But
       | if you wrote or contributed to a popular open-source project, or
       | built something that is used by a large number of people, or you
       | got published somewhere respectable, or you were successful in
       | achieving some impressive goal like helping a community you care
       | about, do share.
       | 
       | Make sure to explain how your work was impactful with numbers,
       | quotes, use-cases, etc...
        
       | presidentender wrote:
       | Historically when interviewing candidates I put more weight on
       | side projects the shorter the resume was. A brand new college
       | grad who made an impressive-looking portfolio web site got extra
       | consideration.
       | 
       | But interviewers are still human beings, and so a link to a
       | visually impressive, interactive and accessible side project will
       | probably get you some credit. My favorites were multi-player
       | games.
       | 
       | If the side project makes money, that's a whole 'nother
       | consideration. Everyone is likely to be impressed.
        
       | sillysaurusx wrote:
       | The best way to get a job is not to need it.
       | 
       | Not needing it is conveyed in a thousand ways. Personally, I
       | think being your authentic self is the most important aspect. If
       | you're proud of your work, list it! Side project or not, it's
       | still your work and is a reflection of the kind of work you can
       | do for them.
       | 
       | I don't think senior vs junior is particularly relevant. People
       | care about your work history, but as long as your projects are
       | listed under "other" then there shouldn't be any confusion.
        
       | slumpt_ wrote:
       | I make brief mention of them. Like a couple sentence blurb about
       | stuff I build when I choose to spend my free time that way.
       | 
       | That said, I work a full week as it is so I don't invest a ton in
       | them. Just when an idea grabs me.
        
       | jkingsbery wrote:
       | I do a fair amount of helping interview senior positions at my
       | current company. At the risk of saying something obvious: when
       | interviewing senior people, the goal is to figure out whether
       | they will do well operating at a senior level. Senior engineers
       | usually bring two things to a team: a broader and deeper
       | technical knowledge, and the ability to help influence and
       | structure larger projects (doing larger scale designs, reviewing
       | designs and code from other engineers, helping mentor more junior
       | engineers, things like that). Side projects can sometimes help
       | inform someone's technical abilities, but it's rare for people to
       | have a side project where they are doing a lot of the
       | "influencing others" part of the job.
       | 
       | But, yeah, if you put in the work, it shouldn't hurt to list your
       | side projects. But also, keep them in perspective: don't bring
       | them up simply because they would be "interesting to discuss." By
       | their nature, side projects don't deal with a lot of challenges
       | of professional projects: there's usually no deadline, there's no
       | disagreements with other engineers, they deal with a smaller
       | scale audience so don't deal with bugs and maintenance.
        
       | bryanrasmussen wrote:
       | I think the takeaway was actually Roger Sterling was mistaken
       | there, and it later came back to bite him.
       | 
       | At any rate one question I have had in the last few years (maybe
       | due to age) is how do you keep up on latest technologies - I then
       | have side projects and articles I can point to as a way to learn
       | new things.
        
       | sputknick wrote:
       | I've hired junior developers, and senior PMs, but never senior
       | developers, so take my recommendations with a grain of salt. I
       | would definitely continue to include side projects on your CV,
       | especially if:
       | 
       | 1. they are technologies you are unfamiliar with. It's an easy
       | and effective way to demonstrate that you are eager to learn new
       | things.
       | 
       | 2. they are emerging technologies (crypto, VR, AI, etc). In most
       | organizations being a senior engineer who doesn't get "stuck" or
       | complacent is a plus.
       | 
       | I'm not sure why employers would not be looking at those things,
       | they definitely should be, it's a treasure trove of information
       | as to who you are and how you think.
        
       | gdubs wrote:
       | I suggest you zoom out a little and consider that landing a great
       | job isn't about checking boxes -- it's about demonstrating how
       | you'll be awesome at helping whatever organization you're
       | applying to do what they do, and hopefully do it even better than
       | they're doing it today.
       | 
       | So the answer to your question really depends on the specific
       | job, and what you think the side projects demonstrate. Do they
       | show off great problem solving ability? Organizational capacity?
       | Team building? Tenacity? Etc.
        
       | dmuth wrote:
       | Oh god yes!
       | 
       | When I'm interviewing someone, especially for a senior position,
       | I want to make sure that they know what they say they know on
       | their resume. Having code up on GitHub, or an actual working side
       | project is a great way to show those things off.
       | 
       | Even code that doesn't look great, but shows that some level of
       | effort was made to learn a new technology is okay. If anything,
       | it then gives me a jumping off point in the interview to ask the
       | candidate about that project, why it's in that state, why certain
       | decisions were made, etc.
       | 
       | I am seriously having a difficult time thinking of downsides in
       | listing a personal project, so I say go for it.
        
       | qudat wrote:
       | I think personal projects help you get your foot in the door but
       | they do nothing to accelerate or skip parts of the interview
       | process.
        
       | milliondollar wrote:
       | Depends on definition of "senior". If you are still an individual
       | contributor and need to demonstrate technical expertise, fine.
       | But if you are a manager, you need to demonstrate the ability to
       | lead, create impact, and deliver results. Side projects are for
       | entertainment / continuing education.
        
       | Rapzid wrote:
       | From the recent bit of looking around I have done for Senior and
       | Staff roles the typical process after screening is;
       | 
       | * Behavioral interview(s)
       | 
       | * Some form of pair coding excercise
       | 
       | * System design interview
       | 
       | Side projects have never really come up explicitly, but my GitHub
       | profile is included in my deets and I'm sure people have viewed
       | it.
        
       | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
       | As an employer, I'm keen to see people show side projects _that
       | they follow through with_.
       | 
       | It's one thing having the technical skills to be able to write
       | code and build a product. It's another thing entirely to have the
       | focus and discipline to actually get all the work done. The side
       | projects you listed look as though substantial effort went in to
       | them. You said you're proud, and you ought to be. They certainly
       | should impress any potential employer!
        
       | wpietri wrote:
       | Different people review resumes differently. Here's my take:
       | 
       | Important questions for me include: Can they build things? Do
       | they have enough experience dealing with real-world deployments
       | to avoid common pitfalls? Do they care about the domain? How long
       | will they stick around?
       | 
       | You're correct that they're going to be of the most help early
       | on, because they demonstrate real-world experience with
       | production software. It's a great sign you'll be able to take a
       | vaguely-specified user need and get something valuable done in
       | production. But even more senior resumes sometimes still leave me
       | wondering if they've worked at sufficiently big/bureaucratic
       | places.
       | 
       | Assuming your resume demonstrates competence without the
       | projects, then yes, they could just as easily count against you
       | as for you.
       | 
       | If the project is one that's related to the domain and/or the
       | tech stack, that's a positive sign that you're interested in what
       | we're actually doing, and so joining us would give you something
       | you could be very engaged in.
       | 
       | Otherwise, I'm going to be concerned that we're going to have to
       | compete for your time and attention with your side project. That
       | this is a day job you're just doing until the side project takes
       | off. I might hire somebody like that, but one of the things I
       | think about when hiring is ROI on my time, so if I can get
       | somebody as good who is likely to focus better and stay longer,
       | I'll hire them instead.
       | 
       | The particular side projects you list are of the kind that would
       | be most concerning to me. They look like attempts to build actual
       | businesses. And you have two of them going at once, which is a
       | bad sign: if you can't focus on one of your commercial projects
       | long enough to make is successful, maybe you won't focus on your
       | actual job either. And there's something cold and unappealing
       | about both of them to me. They are trying to compete with full
       | commercial sites and prominently say they're the best, but when I
       | try them out it doesn't seem that way.
       | 
       | In contrast, the kind of side project that I'd react positively
       | to in more senior engineers is one that demonstrates competence
       | without looking like it will be competitive, and bonus points if
       | it's related to the domain somehow. Modest open-source projects,
       | for example. Twitter bots. Niche Twilio apps. Small, fun services
       | like mcbroken.com or typelit.io.
       | 
       | To me things like that indicate enjoyment of the work, a desire
       | to create things, and an interest in serving users, all positive
       | traits. But they do so without giving me questions about whether
       | they employee will be able to focus on what they're getting paid
       | for.
        
       | dboreham wrote:
       | Yes. Resume is an instrument for getting through a fairly
       | unintelligent filter so probably nobody will even notice that
       | these were side projects at the resume filtering stage. Be
       | prepared to answer interview questions about how you have
       | sufficient spare time to work on two projects at once though.
        
       | choff wrote:
       | Off-topic feedback on your side project - audiobookmate.
       | 
       | I really enjoy the layout of the site, and it feels very natural
       | to navigate. A feature I'd appreciate is a small modal popup on-
       | hover whenever my mouse sat on top of an audio book's cover for a
       | couple seconds, providing a synopsis and maybe the reviews for
       | the current book I'm hovering. (See Goodreads for an example of
       | this)
       | 
       | Otherwise, great job on both sites.
        
       | rsyring wrote:
       | To hiring folks: find better ways to evaluate candidates than a
       | resume. Preferably an evidenced based assessment that measures
       | actual skills for the job and not the esoteric witchcraft
       | required to discern what _you_ think is important in a resume.
       | 
       | The only thing I look for in a resume is number of years doing
       | development and a very rough assessment that the experience there
       | fits with what we asked for in the job description. Beyond that,
       | we have questionnaires that ask the specific questions we care
       | about and real world work simulations that attempt to measure fit
       | for the position.
       | 
       | To the OP: the better teams shouldn't care too much about
       | something like this. But, I'd say add it. It shows you like
       | programming enough to tinker. That's a positive signal to me.
       | But, I'd never dock a candidate if they said they don't do side
       | projects because they have other ways they'd like to use their
       | time outside work.
        
         | wpietri wrote:
         | Yeah, I agree with you on evidenced-based assessment. Our
         | hiring process has two practical portions meant to mirror
         | important parts of the daily work. It lets me care very little
         | about resumes as far as technical skill goes. Sometimes
         | colleagues will ask about a candidate, "Where did they go to
         | school?" I will have no idea, because I don't care.
         | 
         | That said, resumes are still useful to me for things I can't
         | test in a couple hours. E.g.: How long is this person likely to
         | stay? What motivates them? What kinds of environment are they
         | used to/comfortable in?
        
       | Tade0 wrote:
       | Recruiters are mostly interested in the things other people paid
       | you to do - because it shows that it's safe to pay you as well.
       | 
       | I list such things as "web presence" along with my GitHub
       | account, "technical blog"(heavy quotes here) and LinkedIn
       | profile. I think only that last one ever gets clicked on.
       | 
       | Large companies especially don't care about such things, because
       | they need you to fill a highly specific role, not one that would
       | make use of the broad skillset required to release your own
       | product.
        
         | jstx1 wrote:
         | Is the last part really true? I think large companies often
         | hire much more broadly and some don't even have a specific
         | position/team for you until you go through the matching process
         | after you start the job.
        
       | CodeGlitch wrote:
       | The best bang for buck would be to spend your spare time gaining
       | a certification, for example Java, CompTIA, AWS, Azure, etc. This
       | IMHO is far better on your CV then a side-project, as it shows a
       | willingness to perform continued learning. Your side project
       | could be using tools and techniques that you learnt decades ago,
       | which could be fine but my org is only interested in cutting-edge
       | stuff (for example).
        
         | mxuribe wrote:
         | > ...Your side project could be using tools and techniques that
         | you learnt decades ago, which could be fine but my org is only
         | interested in cutting-edge stuff...
         | 
         | Or, perhaps the inverse could be the case, where i learned
         | cutting-edge stuff for my side project, but at enterprise,
         | sorry, they're only using legacy Java (for example), so can't
         | really use my cutting edge experience, etc. Now, as far as
         | certs, i agree that they should help get through the door, but
         | wonder if pairing them with discussions about experiences
         | gained on a side project - to play with the knowledge learned
         | from said certs - would be an even better combo? If i was
         | hiring, and saw that a person got some certs (and maybe checks
         | some needed box), but also has interests in side project,
         | again, for the experience of it...then that is well above
         | average for sure (at least in my eyes).
        
       | posharma wrote:
       | If you care about only FAANGM companies, leetcode is all that you
       | need. No one at these companies care about your side projects.
        
         | jstx1 wrote:
         | They fit in different part of the hiring processs. A side
         | project is something that potentially makes your resume more
         | attractive and makes it more likely you get a
         | callback/interview. Leetcode is a technical test which comes
         | later.
         | 
         | Being the best leetcoder doesn't make a difference if you don't
         | get an interview.
        
       | TameAntelope wrote:
       | I've been hiring a couple of senior positions, and so far the
       | most appropriate way I've seen side projects highlighted is with
       | a link to the applicant's GitHub.
       | 
       | Honestly, finding a well maintained and substantive project in a
       | person's GitHub would impress me, and that candidate would
       | certainly stand out. So often people link their GitHub accounts,
       | but when I visit, I only see toy projects and book exercises.
       | 
       | As part of my hiring process I've been giving out a simple take
       | home coding challenge, but I offer to instead review a project
       | you've already been working on if that's your preference, because
       | I feel bad making people do work for a job they don't even have
       | yet (I haven't been able to convince my boss to let me pay people
       | for their time on the take home challenge yet).
        
       | pdovy wrote:
       | Personally I will always look through side projects or a GitHub
       | if it's on a candidates resume. It's another source of signal and
       | can be really valuable especially if there is code to look
       | through.
       | 
       | That said as the role gets more senior the value of the signal
       | goes down IMO. Side projects are typically done solo, and are
       | small-ish in scope. Whereas a key function of a good senior IC,
       | at least in my opinion, is to be a force multiplier more than a
       | heads-down coder.
        
       | relaunched wrote:
       | There are two plays you can make by listing a side project. For
       | example, if the project is in some way commensurate to the role.
       | For example, if you are applying for a VP of engineering job at a
       | large technology company and your side project is co-author and
       | commit rights to a major open source project, say Python or a
       | well known and use library and you're actively involved.
       | 
       | Or, if it's on the resume to demonstrate you're still actively
       | hands on and you believe that is valuable to the role.
       | 
       | However, if you wouldn't talk about it in an interview, don't put
       | it on your resume. If it wouldn't help you get the job, I
       | wouldn't talk about it in the interview.
        
       | austincheney wrote:
       | My experience is that side projects are 90% ignored. They are
       | treated strictly as line items like education.
       | 
       | I got furious tired of this so on my last resume I treated my
       | employment history strictly as employment history. A list of
       | employers with dates and dates of promotions plus a sentence or
       | two what I worked on. Supremely lowered emphasis.
       | 
       | I also put my personal projects into a separate section above my
       | employment history. Between my personal projects and employment
       | history I put in a small two paragraph section for personal bio.
       | In this bio I mention how long I have been programming, some of
       | my accomplishments. I also explicitly mention to carefully
       | consider my personal projects to make an informed decision if I
       | will be a good fit for their organization and that two of my
       | personal projects contain over a thousand commits. I follow up
       | that up with a mention that I am not waiting on administrative
       | approval or a budget authorization to innovate and that these
       | personal projects are years of experience other developers do not
       | have.
       | 
       | This a recent change I have made so I cannot say if it's
       | successful.
        
       | w4llstr33t wrote:
       | Depends on if you are concerned if your new potential employer
       | has an issue with employees moonlighting or not.
        
       | pryelluw wrote:
       | I do mention my side open source side projects, but not side
       | hustles.
        
         | mxuribe wrote:
         | I was going to mention that if you somehow turned your side
         | project into a side hustle, that could be received well,
         | because it shows you were able to evolve your project into the
         | business (maybe even monetization) direction...but that would
         | require really careful, nuanced explanation...so i defer my
         | position to what @PragmaticPulp rightly stated about being very
         | careful in how that distinction is presented (to avoid concerns
         | around distractions, etc.).
        
         | PragmaticPulp wrote:
         | This is a good distinction.
         | 
         | Side projects = Fun project that demonstrates skills
         | 
         | Side business = Ongoing obligation that could distract from
         | your job.
         | 
         | Be careful in how you present them.
        
       | xcambar wrote:
       | You want your side projects to help you get the job. They must
       | demonstrate as achievements instead of hobbies.
       | 
       | For this reason, I'd default to no, don't list side projects,
       | unless you make it a strong argument for the position you're
       | applying to.
       | 
       | Are you a major contributor to a tech used in company? Have you
       | written a book about it? Did you grow a community? Have you
       | reached significant traction or revenue?
       | 
       | Any yes to one of the above, if they relate to the position, can
       | hint you into mentioning your side project.
       | 
       | Other than that, your side project will be seen as a hobby and
       | not an achievement, and will be disregarded.
       | 
       | Note: some nuances may apply, so take this as the generic advice
       | it's meant to be.
        
         | jcroll wrote:
         | I like your answer I just wonder: I used this project to teach
         | myself kubernetes. If someone asks me how I know kubernetes
         | what do I say? I suppose I say it was on a side project I did
        
           | xcambar wrote:
           | Then by all means mention the project. To me, what matters in
           | this specific answer is not the side project, but the
           | learning opportunity and associated curiosity.
           | 
           | All bonus points, especially if the company uses k8s or if
           | you can answer aptly "why did you choose k8s?"
           | 
           | FWIW, I'd expect 3 kinds of answers: 1. "This was a right fit
           | because..." 2. "I knew this was NOT a right fit but I wanted
           | to learn" 3. "I thought it was the right fit but I was wrong
           | because..."
        
           | simonw wrote:
           | When I'm hiring I consider "I learned that on a side-project"
           | to be an extremely strong positive signal.
        
           | mason55 wrote:
           | Sure, people give me that answer all the time.
           | 
           | If you actually went beyond basic setup and dealt with real
           | enterprise/production level issues then make sure to point it
           | out. I assume that "I learned it for a side project" means
           | mostly happy path stuff.
        
         | PragmaticPulp wrote:
         | > Other than that, your side project will be seen as a hobby
         | and not an achievement, and will be disregarded.
         | 
         | I think you've misunderstood the purpose of a side project for
         | engineers. They're supposed to be hobby projects that
         | demonstrate the developer's abilities as well as their
         | commitment to following through on projects.
         | 
         | The OP's projects are perfect for listing as completed side
         | projects on a Senior Engineer resume. I wouldn't hesitate to
         | include them on a resume and describe the technologies used to
         | build them.
         | 
         | You definitely don't need to demonstrate significant traction
         | or revenue for an engineering side project, nor do you need to
         | write a book about it or build a significant community around
         | it. These are ridiculously high standards for including a
         | development side project on a senior engineer resume.
         | 
         | Frankly, if someone were to list "side projects" with
         | significant revenue and a large community, I'm going to assume
         | it's a business and not a side project. We'd have to have a
         | conversation about how much time and energy it's going to take
         | away from their employment, and how we can cleanly separate it
         | from interfering with their job. Showing employers that you're
         | running a side business with significant revenue and therefore
         | significant needs isn't exactly a bonus when it comes to hiring
         | someone. A fun side project that demonstrates their skills is a
         | bonus, however.
        
           | slumpt_ wrote:
           | Generally only reading your last few jobs and educational
           | background. Side project is fine to see but it's not going to
           | be the differentiator. If you're getting an interview you're
           | getting an interview.
           | 
           | Side projects help junior candidates without relevant job
           | experience most.
        
           | incrudible wrote:
           | > I think you've misunderstood the purpose of a side project
           | for engineers.
           | 
           | Perhaps, but you have to assume that many of those who are
           | hiring will do exactly that. That's the meta-game.
           | 
           | There's a basket of opinions in this thread and they are all
           | valid and informative, even if they are mistaken.
        
           | giantg2 wrote:
           | "I think you've misunderstood the purpose of a side project
           | for engineers. They're supposed to be hobby projects that
           | demonstrate the developer's abilities as well as their
           | commitment to following through on projects."
           | 
           | Most managers at my company view side projects positively.
           | One of the main reasons is that it shows the person has a
           | creative mind and is at least a little passionate about
           | technology/coding and learning on their own.
        
             | victorvscn wrote:
             | I'm not even an engineer but I have some HR training as a
             | Psychologist and this resonates with me.
        
               | ku-man wrote:
               | Nowadays everybody can be an engineer, e.g.: growth
               | engineer, GIS engineer, user interface engineer, game
               | engineer, legal engineer... you could be an 'human
               | interaction' engineer
        
             | lumost wrote:
             | aye - I don't list inactive projects, but some hobbies/side
             | projects provide a small sense of what kind of person you
             | are like and what it will be to work with you.
        
               | giantg2 wrote:
               | I wonder how I would fair in your evaluation of what I'm
               | like if I have Android apps for ballistic energy
               | calculations and a calculator for determining the alcohol
               | needed for a party.
        
               | lumost wrote:
               | This isn't part of the evaluation, but it's a useful item
               | to include for conversation starters. Whether these are
               | useful conversation starters in a particular company is
               | up to your judgement.
               | 
               | If you are interviewing for an Alcohol friendly company
               | then the calculator might be a fun side project that
               | shows you know Android development. Raytheon would
               | probably love the ballistic energy calculator. If your
               | interviewing with the quaker church then both items will
               | probably have you rejected for culture fit.
        
               | giantg2 wrote:
               | Most people chuckle when I demo the alcohol calculator.
               | They especially like the drunkenness slider to select how
               | drunk your guest are expected to get. I make sure to give
               | them the background that it was an idea that I started in
               | college. The ballistic one is extremely simple, but that
               | was my first ever Android app and I chose it for that
               | reason (didn't do a regular calculator because there are
               | sooo many of them out there already).
               | 
               | I might as well add the link. https://play.google.com/sto
               | re/apps/details?id=com.blogspot.t...
        
       | jacob_rezi wrote:
       | As echoed from others, if the project is relevant and
       | communicated in a way that brings value. Page space is an
       | important consideration too.
       | 
       | We've been working hard to build a library of the best
       | engineering resumes we've seen - you can get an idea for best
       | practices here - https://www.rezi.ai/resume-
       | templates?search=developer&resume...
        
       | Jenk wrote:
       | I always ask candidates if they have anything to show off. I am
       | _always_ more interested in what people do as a side project than
       | I am of what they have done professionally.
       | 
       | Hyperbole time but I think it conveys the message: People do side
       | projects for better reaons than they do professionally. At worst
       | it's because they want to quickly learn/achieve something for
       | their next job. Compared to professional experience, where at
       | best it's because they were paid to do it and any fun or whatever
       | altruism is a byproduct.
       | 
       | There are lashings upon lashings of caveats and nuance of course.
       | For a senior role I will still be looking for interpersonal
       | skills not just technical achievement. Part of being a senior is
       | managing yourself, selling your ideas/concerns, mentoring and
       | managing peers, and to some extent managing your managers.
       | 
       | FWIW your side projects are great examples and I'd would be
       | impressed.
        
         | majewsky wrote:
         | I appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, looking at side
         | projects runs the risk of discriminating against qualified
         | candidates who don't have time for side projects because of
         | other commitments (e.g. childcare or care for elderly
         | relatives) or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a
         | work-life balance. How do you avoid treating such candidates
         | unfairly?
        
           | simonw wrote:
           | I remind myself that I've worked with fantastic colleagues
           | who don't run any side projects, and I definitely don't want
           | to miss out on someone like that.
        
           | Jenk wrote:
           | Yes that's one of the many caveats. I myself have zero time
           | for side projects due to family etc. so I am fully
           | sympathetic.
           | 
           | And side projects are side projects. I was fascinated by a
           | candidate's beer brewing project (there are some very
           | relatable skills in management and organisation, supply chain
           | dependencies, etc) as one example of a non-tech side project.
        
           | dannyw wrote:
           | If I am trying to hire someone into my team, I want to make
           | use of all relevant and appropriate signals that can help me
           | make a better decision. I consider side projects to be an
           | appropriate and often valuable signal.
           | 
           | While it is unfortunate that side projects have some
           | selection bias against those who are time-poor, it also feels
           | wrong to me to discriminate against people who can
           | demonstrate their skills and impress through their side
           | projects.
           | 
           | Like, if there are two candidates and all else are equal, and
           | one has a really impressive side project that demonstrates
           | positive traits (whether it's technical expertise, novelty,
           | relevant skills, or communication/community), it's going to
           | be hard to... actively ignore that?
        
             | Osiris wrote:
             | I am not an ideas guy. Give me a project and I'll build it.
             | Ask me what I'd like to build and I'll have no idea.
             | 
             | In 15 years I've had 1 side project. I'm a staff engineer.
        
               | withinboredom wrote:
               | I like to ask similar questions. If I was interviewing
               | and that was your answer, I'd be just as impressed. Not
               | everyone needs to be running around building things for
               | fun.
               | 
               | I've also had people show me pics of their wood working,
               | mountains climbed, hunting trophies, and even 3d models.
               | I think only one time did someone say they did nothing
               | but take care of their spouse. We talked about that, as I
               | have some experience there. My job is to see how you
               | solve problems and ensure they're compatible with our
               | problems, along with skill set, etc.
        
               | dannyw wrote:
               | That's fine and great. I never consider side projects to
               | be a requirement, and I believe they never should be.
               | 
               | It's just an additional piece of signal that may help a
               | candidate when relevant; the same way doing great during
               | the interview can help a candidate.
        
           | catillac wrote:
           | I'd say that asking if they have anything to show off and not
           | discounting them if they don't is in bounds. Like extra
           | credit that no one has to do and people can get the job
           | without.
        
           | deregulateMed wrote:
           | As someone with kids and side projects, I have doubts about
           | "not having time".
           | 
           | I could do 2 hours of productivity after the kids go to sleep
           | and I'd still have 2 hours for entertainment. I exercise too.
           | 
           | So let's make it even more reasonable. How about 30 minutes,
           | 4 times a week?
           | 
           | >Meaningful progress
           | 
           | So then do an hour or 2? I make progress in 30 minutes and
           | sometimes keep going. If the point is for a resume, you could
           | even do a 1 or 2 week sprint.
           | 
           | I suppose you could even work on it while the kids are awake.
           | My kids love Alphablocks.
           | 
           | If you don't have a personal side project, the issue isn't
           | children. It's desire.
        
             | sha256kira wrote:
             | I do find that I have time for side projects even with my
             | wife and I working full time with a one year old but some /
             | most weeks I feel like Im going to drop dead and that is in
             | part because I find myself with little time for exercise
             | and other self care. I just think its worth regurgitating
             | the adage that every child really is different and so is
             | every tech job. My friends that end up working till 9pm and
             | on weekends regularly or have more demanding children are
             | living in completely different realities and my heart goes
             | out to them every day. With all this said my side projects
             | end up being very consuming and not necessarily geared
             | towards looking good on a resume.
        
               | deregulateMed wrote:
               | I should put an astrik that this is only feasible when
               | working 40 hours a week.
               | 
               | Beyond that and the burnout is real.
        
             | fernandotakai wrote:
             | it's not that i don't have time -- i do have time. but i
             | don't want to write code as side projects anymore.
             | 
             | i much rather do something else. play a videogame, read a
             | book, watch series. i already work 8~10h a day, after that,
             | i want chill and think about something else that is not
             | code.
        
               | deregulateMed wrote:
               | Sure. The parent claimed there wasn't time.
               | 
               | Btw have you considered something drastically different
               | than your current code? Embedded comes to mind, it's half
               | electrical engineering and lots of instant gratification.
               | 
               | But in general, nonfiction books could help you ace an
               | interview. I wowd some people by merely talking taoist
               | philosophy and how despite having diverse skills, there's
               | something to be said about sticking to your role.
        
               | majewsky wrote:
               | > The parent claimed there wasn't time.
               | 
               | You forgot the second part of my sentence:
               | 
               | > or who choose to pursue non-IT hobbies to keep a work-
               | life balance
        
             | journey_16162 wrote:
             | I work on something which will either be a side project for
             | CV or a small business if I'm lucky - in either case most
             | of the work at the time relates to development. On a
             | typical week I put 30 - 40h into it (I don't work full time
             | so I can afford it) and it still goes so damn slow. And the
             | project is not anything crazy, just a standard Electron
             | desktop app.
             | 
             | I can hardly imagine how someone could build anything at
             | 2h/week. 30 min is barely enough time for the brain to
             | switch gears.
             | 
             | I fully get how someone does not have time for side
             | projects - they have life besides work, while I barely do.
        
               | simonw wrote:
               | The trick is to cheat: Pick side projects which you know
               | you can make substantial progress on in a small amount of
               | time given your unique set of skills and experiences.
        
               | deregulateMed wrote:
               | I can either build a consumer friendly embedded project,
               | or I can build one that I need to recompile when it's
               | time to change settings.
               | 
               | Both count for the interview purposes.
        
             | Osiris wrote:
             | You're right that it's not always about time. Some people,
             | like me, are just idea poor. Or, our brains are so
             | overworked from the day we can't concentrate at 10pm at
             | night enough to do anything coherent.
        
           | 908B64B197 wrote:
           | I treat side projects as a "nice to have"
           | 
           | Some of the best engineers I've worked with had exactly none,
           | and very full lives outside of work. But you could tell they
           | punched above their weight just by looking at the resume.
        
         | shard wrote:
         | I think it depends on just how senior this position is. Senior
         | developer, sure. VP of engineering, no. Team lead, maybe. If
         | you list side projects, it needs to scale with your position. A
         | VP's side project would scale up to a viable business of its
         | own, which then is no longer a side project but a work
         | experience entry in the CV.
        
       | runawaybottle wrote:
       | I'd honestly list a side project that highlights the skills
       | relevant to the job over a job where you used irrelevant skills.
       | 
       | But you have to come strong with the side project. The site/app
       | better be up, you better have a repo, and it better be something
       | beyond a todo-app or a bootcamp project.
        
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