[HN Gopher] Twike
___________________________________________________________________
Twike
Author : legerdemain
Score : 257 points
Date : 2021-07-21 06:51 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
| hkt wrote:
| I hope this link is from a clever would-be startup founder so
| they can show our positive responses as they pitch basically the
| same idea to YC.
|
| More seriously, pedal power is great, better for the environment
| and better for its users. I expect obesity rates would drop
| dramatically if we had better cycle infrastructure (I'm in the
| UK, statement works in most places) and especially if we had
| family friendly power assisted cycles.
| tomthe wrote:
| I had friends who had 2 Twikes. They were really great, my
| friends used them every day to commute for more than 10 years.
| But they have two disadvantages:
|
| * Savety if you share the road with 2000kg blobs of steel. *
| Price. Cheap once you have them, but they are not mass-
| manufactured and come with a heafty price for what they offer.
| sunshineforever wrote:
| I actually seriously dream of starting some sort of company to
| build vehicles like this!
|
| Other than the car designs themselves, my idea is to decentralize
| the ownership and selling to circumvent the laws about auto
| manufacturing. Like, "the sharing economy" but we're sharing
| being auto manufacturers in an independent, collective way. Each
| member will be able to sell so many "custom cars" as a private
| individual.
|
| I want to see the USA with tiny little cars and empower people to
| be able to theoretically build/maintain their own, like a
| bicycle.
|
| I'm extremely passionate about small vehicles and I think that
| they will be more popular in the future, when we are facing the
| more severe effects of climate change and fuel shortage.
|
| I haven't even read the thread yet, and I've never brought this
| sort of thing up here before, but I'm slowly acquiring the
| knowledge and skills to make building one at least a personal
| reality some day.
|
| Now, on to the thread!
| bipson wrote:
| I think after all this falls under the super-category Velomobile
| [1] - there are plenty of other examples for two-seater, electric
| assisted Velomobiles.
|
| Also, Velomobiles are way more popular. My unkle (used to?)
| drives one every day to work, in every weather, 40+ km one way
| (without electric assist, at least a few years ago). And no, he
| was never cold, he rather had problems with ventilation ;)
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| petruil_p wrote:
| Having such cars in the city would solve the traffic problem. But
| why are not selected from the car industry holders? Does the
| customer not prefer them? Is the marketing that is missing? A
| good example of transition in the car industry is the massive use
| of the electric cars which I think that it began with Tesla cars.
| Tesla cars did the break through for the electric cars from my
| point of view. There is a need for another break through for
| using such cars.. or an evolutionary part of the community to
| start using and search such solutions
| cylinder714 wrote:
| I love the idea of velomobiles, but living in the American West,
| air conditioning is a necessity.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| A very modern version but for one adult:
|
| https://www.podbike.com/
| dijit wrote:
| Reminds me of a Sinclar C5[0] (my grandfather worked for the
| company I believe, there are photos with him, my mum and a bunch
| of these C5's)
|
| It was mired in troubles; low visibility, low range (lead-acid
| batteries being... low density compared to li-ion), quite easy to
| break and being easy to steal.
|
| Still, I think the form factor is a wonderful idea and it's nice
| to see some alternative methods being explored for electric
| vehicles again..
|
| I sometimes see little electric "Fatboys"[1] in operation around
| Malmo (a famously cycle friendly city); though sadly I think
| they're mainly used by drug dealers.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5
|
| [1]: https://www.urbanscooters.com/products/mototec-
| fatboy-500w-e...
| rswail wrote:
| Those Fatboys look perfect for all sorts of local delivery,
| food, drugs, groceries in general.
|
| Not sure why it's particularly sad that drug dealers have
| adopted a practical delivery vehicle though.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Drug dealers are not necessarily dumb, and can be quite
| creative when figuring out how to go about their criminal
| enterprising.
|
| History is full of stigmatized industry leading change,
| especially porn. Porn legitimized VHS, the internet,
| streaming video on the internet, etc.
| dijit wrote:
| Because if they're associated with criminal behaviour then
| they're likely to be avoided by ordinary folks.
| jmrm wrote:
| Here in Spain there are "fatboys" everywhere, Specially in
| rural areas as a substitute of mopeds.
| pg_bot wrote:
| Reminds me of the reliant robin.[0]
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8
| rswail wrote:
| Isn't the reliant robin the ICE equivalent that was/is completely
| unstable around corners?
|
| It makes a good space shuttle replacement though.
| frereubu wrote:
| I love this in principle, but the one thing I always wonder about
| recumbent bicycles is how visible they are to lorries / trucks.
| I've seen some with a tall aerial-like stem and a flag on top of
| it, but knowing how bicycles can be pretty invisible to cars even
| when wearing a reflective top at their eye height, I think I'd
| always be anxious about being crushed from behind. I suppose that
| says a lot about cycling infrastructure in the UK in terms of
| being forced to ride on the same road as massive lorries.
|
| Edit: Actually, looking at the official site -
| https://twike.com/en/home/ - it's bigger than it seemed to me at
| first, so perhaps not as bad as recumbent bikes.
|
| Edit 2: Blimey, they're expensive - "The new vehicle price for a
| TWIKE 5 shall be between 39.900 EUR and 49.900 EUR (sales price
| in Germany, incl. 19% VAT, depending on the battery equipment)."
| jtwaleson wrote:
| Wow, that is expensive for such a simple design.
|
| I live in the Netherlands and these are too fast for bicycle
| paths and too unsafe for regular roads. Love the idea, but we
| would need much cheaper mass production and a completely
| different road infrastructure.
| theodric wrote:
| I used to live in NL, so I know the paths you mean, and the
| same applies here in Switzerland. But in Switzerland they
| instead plate them as cars and drive them on regular roads,
| keeping up/competing with automobile traffic. These are not
| uncommon here despite their cost and moderate practicality,
| probably because their cost relative to salary is lower than
| elsewhere in Europe.
| shusson wrote:
| > one thing I always wonder about recumbent bicycles is how
| visible they are to lorries / trucks
|
| I'd be worried about any vehicle that isn't a Twike. These
| would not fair well in accident.
| bserge wrote:
| Ah, so they just multiplied the ridiculous cost of bicycles by
| the ridiculous cost of electric cars. Brilliant.
| Y_Y wrote:
| That would have units of money^2 and wouldn't type-check.
| You'd have to do something like a geometric mean or choose a
| money-valued scale, like the price of a smug bumper sticker,
| to divide by.
| bruce343434 wrote:
| divide it by 1EUR
| RalfWausE wrote:
| The twike is not much smaller than a small car, and perhaps
| even a bit bigger than a Smart ForTwo... so, no real problem
| here... and i can asure you: If there is one of those around,
| they HAVE the attention of any driver around them ;-)
| InitialLastName wrote:
| The wheelbase might not be smaller than a small car, but it
| definitely looks like its height is much smaller. One could
| still imagine it being invisible to a person in an SUV
| staring at their phone.
|
| The benefit for safety for this is that it is large enough
| fast enough to move with traffic on most city streets, so
| won't be getting sideswiped into the gutter by passing cars
| regularly.
| acover wrote:
| I've wondered how feasible it is to add an automated detection
| system to a bike that makes a loud noise/light show when it
| detects a vehicle is driving towards you.
|
| Is radar enough? Would it take too much power?
| nabilhat wrote:
| Garmin's Varia product line does this.
|
| https://www.garmin.com/en-US/c/sports-fitness/cycling-
| bike-c...
|
| I do prefer a decent mirror though. Radar can't tell me what
| a car is doing, what it is, if a bicyclist is approaching, if
| my friend stopped to fix a flat, etc.
| wiether wrote:
| I was about to post that same link :)
| dbrgn wrote:
| Wow. For that price, you can easily buy an electric car.
| phwitti wrote:
| Well i would say with a speed of about 120km/h and the range
| of 150km in the most basic configuration (max with 190km/h
| and 500km range) the Twike more or less IS an electric car^^.
| dbrgn wrote:
| Yeah, but for less than 30k EUR you can already get a
| Renault Zoe with a speed of 145 km/h and a range of almost
| 400 km (52 kWh battery).
|
| At the price of 50k EUR, you're in the Tesla Model 3 range.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Or ten used ICE's.
|
| Or 50 good e-bikes.
|
| Or 100 good regular bikes.
|
| Or 500 cheap secondhand bikes.
| jtwaleson wrote:
| Good ebikes for 1k? I think "good" starts at 2k.
| jascii wrote:
| For all practical purposes bicycles and motorcycles are
| invisible to drivers. FortNine has an amusing video on it:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x94PGgYKHQ0
|
| My personal experience, after years as a courier on both
| upright, recumbent, and motorcycles is that I am _more_
| "visible" on a recumbent then the other options because I'm
| "weird" enough to make it into a drivers consciousness...
|
| None of this is ofcourse scientifically relevant data.
| medstrom wrote:
| It's strange that this is a meme, because my experience is
| the opposite: as a motorist, bicycles are the most visible
| things around. As a cyclist, I see cars react to me every
| time I'm close enough to them that it's relevant. They're
| clearly aware of me.
|
| My theory is that cyclists become invisible in areas where
| the roads force them to mix with cars. Where I live, they
| rarely mix, so when they do, it's an unusual event that
| promotes itself to your attention.
|
| Either way, it backs up the idea that weirdness counts for a
| lot.
| [deleted]
| RalfWausE wrote:
| Yup, they are built roughly 5 km from where i live, and you can
| see one or two on a daily basis. They have this '80s eco design'
| charme and after a testdrive a few years ago i can say: If i had
| the money, i would buy one anytime.
| folli wrote:
| So, how much are we talking?
| RalfWausE wrote:
| Lets just say round about "half a tesla" ;-)
| Hackbraten wrote:
| I want one of those!
| jsjsbdkj wrote:
| I love biking in the summmer, and I've avoided a moped or
| motorcycle because it would basically overlap with my bike in
| terms of usefulness around the city. I haven't done a ton of
| resarch but I haven't seen a good complementary vehicle for
| running errands / getting around when it's rainy/snowy and I
| wouldn't want to bike. A recumbent bike like this would be very
| hard to see in the rain, and it doesn't seem capable of dealing
| with canadian winter weather.
| paraiuspau wrote:
| I used to see these occasionally on the road in Switzerland and
| often would drive behind them, as they were naturally a lot
| slower on the open road than most cars.
| Kichererbsen wrote:
| There are still a few around in Zurich. They're quite
| expensive, though, so I guess that's why they didn't really
| take off. I might consider buying one for say... twice the
| price of a good electric bicycle.
| Faaak wrote:
| I had something similar, although simpler: it's called a
| velomobile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile). It's a
| bike but with some added aerodynamics. You can easily ride at
| 40km/hour (~24mi) only with your muscles.
|
| It was very nice to drive: very stable and rather fast and i did
| 2x20km/day to work. However its bigger weight compared to a
| simple bicycle makes it not suitable to mountains
| pqs wrote:
| Why don't you have it anymore?
| Faaak wrote:
| I moved and lived closer to the city than before (where i had
| 14km of "Straight road").
|
| I bought an electric bicycle instead :-)
| pqs wrote:
| Thanks! :-)
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| I would love to buy one and do some nice trips in the Italian
| back country. Problem is, it's very hard to understand which
| model(s) are well designed, and also hard to understand where
| to buy it to get the best price.
|
| Is there any recommendation you could provide?
| nmehner wrote:
| Almost all modern velomobiles are build by Velomobile World
| in Romania. There is a italian dealer for them:
| https://www.velomobileworld.com/dealers/
|
| It is probably a good idea to do one or more test drives
| first, so you know what you are getting into and what is
| important to you.
| dasKrokodil wrote:
| There is a very good forum: velomobilforum.de
|
| It's in German, but you can ask questions in English and they
| will usually be answered in English as well.
|
| As for your question about which models are well designed,
| I'd say that if you're looking for speed, the fast ones are
| the Milan SL, the Alpha 7 and the upcoming Snoek, but those
| are not suitable for tall and/or wide riders. If you don't
| fit into those, your best options for speed would be the
| Milan GT, the DFXL or the upcoming Alpha 9.
|
| If you're rather looking for something more practical, the
| Quattrovelo is the way to go; it has four wheels and
| therefore a bigger and more usable luggage space, which can
| even be used to transport a small child.
| Faaak wrote:
| I had a rotovelo, which is the only one who is "plastic
| only". It's heavier than the NL ones (Quest, Strada, Mango)
| but it was a bit cheaper.
|
| In EU (FR/CH/DE) there are specialized forums about them and
| I bought mine second hand. You'll love it !
| FriedrichN wrote:
| The problem with these kind of vehicles is that they exist
| somewhere between cars and bicycles, which means they won't be
| welcome on either bike paths or car roads. Hell, people even
| complain about people on race bicycles on bicycle paths. But then
| again, people wouldn't be people if they didn't complain (about
| traffic).
| Tepix wrote:
| I'm a sucker for these bicycles (or quadcycles) with roofs. There
| have been countless attempts to bring them to market but it seems
| they mostly end up being too expensive or not making it to
| production.
| jamilabreu wrote:
| Love discovering random Wikipedia articles! Just this week I
| started a newsletter about the random articles I come across:
|
| https://randomwalk.substack.com/
|
| Going to use this one :)
| thcleaner999 wrote:
| Just look at this danish icon
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityEl?wprov=sfti1
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| These are awesome, but they are too small (and too slow) for the
| road and too big for the bike path or sidewalk.
|
| I ride a scooter to work everyday. (Inokim Ox). Its legal on the
| sidewalk where I live. I really think scooters are the future.
| bipson wrote:
| Thank god they swiftly banned scooters from the sidewalk in
| Austria. And enforced reasonable speed limits as well.
|
| Right after Lyft, Lime and whatnot started to literally litter
| the sidewalks of Vienna with their (almost free) electric
| scooters (mind you, these sidewalks are almost always full of
| people), you were constantly almost run over by some Schmuck
| with headphones on and an arrogant look on their face,
| screaming "This is the future you peasants, now get out of my
| way..."
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| I'm going to get a monocle and a top hat and ride with my
| nose in the air to enhance my arrogant look!
| alexisread wrote:
| In the UK, many of these solutions are held back by regulation
| - electric scooters aren't legal yet, despite a significant
| fraction of the population using them. Similarly for electric
| velomobiles and bicycles, limited to 15mph is limiting given
| that many cities have large 20mph zones.
|
| Once the regulation has caught up, I can see the price dropping
| for many of these vehicles. There are gaps in the market for
| (weatherproof!) city transport for 1+1/luggage eg. for
| shopping, school runs, work commute, mobility etc.
|
| As far as scooters go, with such small wheels, they put you at
| risk every pothole. Hire scooters should really be using 12" or
| larger to be safe. They're also not weatherproof so not ideal
| for many demographics and locations. Agreed that we need more
| innovative transportation though!
| Kichererbsen wrote:
| Just checked the website - the Twike 5 (2021) with the largest
| battery should be able to do 190km/h and have a range of 500km.
| Those are optimistic numbers for sure, but not really "too
| slow", right?
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| Agree, Twikes combine the disadvantages of both. Its more the
| expression of an identity instead of a rational decision.
| ofrzeta wrote:
| The price of the Twikes is absolutely ridiculous. You have to be
| an idiot or an absolute enthusiast to buy one because with every
| other vehicle you get a lot more for the money.
|
| I wonder how they got to that price. Obviously no economy of
| scale here but still, I can't create a business on the grounds
| that I will only sell like two vehicles per year, so I need to
| make them ridiculously expensive to make my company sustain.
|
| Even if I totally manufacture that machine it will never be so
| costly.
| yohannparis wrote:
| Mostly because it's made in an highly develop country with
| strong labour law and high quality of life. Sure, you could
| built it in Turkey or U.S.A. and lower significantly the cost,
| but not as much as you think.
| rsynnott wrote:
| I mean, it's made in Germany. For the price, you could get
| _two_ VW e-ups (worst electric car name ever), also made in
| Germany, or a small herd of German-made e-bikes.
| MaxHoppersGhost wrote:
| Nice swipe at the U.S. but less is manufactured here on a per
| capita basis than some European countries (namely Germany).
| ofrzeta wrote:
| For comparison, the Renault Twizy starts at 7k Euro. Ok, that
| doesn't include the battery, and maybe it's assembled in
| Romania but still a much more reasonable price for a
| comparable product.
| ourcat wrote:
| Are these like those things I've seen tourists riding around in
| San Francisco?
| thom wrote:
| This thread is of course tragically incomplete without tagging
| the Sinclair C5:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5
| mgreb wrote:
| It seems to me, that this thing combines disadvantages both from
| car and a bicycle. Also: only one wheel on the front? Imagine
| what will happen if you decide to apply brakes while cornering at
| a reasonable speed.
| quicon wrote:
| There is a similar four wheeled HEHV being produced in Norway:
| https://www.podbike.com
| nabilhat wrote:
| Velomobiles are a fascinating example of a domain which keeps
| getting reinvented over and over! The 'glass ceiling' cab has
| been a feature that keeps showing up on independently developed
| velomobiles, despite the prior experiences of models like the
| Go-One and Twike. If the interior is reflective or a light
| color that doesn't absorb sunlight, it reflects back in the
| screen, creating glare. If the interior is dark enough not to
| cause glare, it becomes a solar oven. When it's cool and cloudy
| enough that the sunlight exposure isn't a problem, condensation
| sets in.
| medstrom wrote:
| Just a layman, but it seems like you could solve the heat and
| condensation by adjusting ventilation.
| bipson wrote:
| Wow, the hoops you have to jump through to find a price!
|
| 5k or 5.5k, depending on variant.
|
| Although to be practicable (not a hobby), you will have to add
| quite a few "extras".
|
| But not that bad actually! Makes me wonder how it is built.
| Aachen wrote:
| For me (on mobile) it said right on the homepage. And then
| after loading a few megabytes of data a cookie wall popped up
| so I guess they need consent for stuff I don't want...
| jablan wrote:
| > With +3100 pre-orders, expected delivery for new pre-orders
| is 2023.
| medstrom wrote:
| 5k?! That's seriously low. Other velomobiles (going by
| velomobiel.nl) aren't even ebikes and still go for at least
| 8k (or 6.6k without VAT to be fair).
|
| That's an exciting development, hopefully it's not vaporware.
| 1-more wrote:
| It has a serial hybrid drivetrain: you charge the battery
| with your pedals. This is inefficient, naturally, but they
| claim it's far easier to make, which I tend to believe. But
| the idea of all of my hard-won watts getting wasted by the
| second law of thermodynamics is just too much to bear. If I'm
| dropping 5K on a bike it had better have a drivetrain that
| just sings when you step on it.
| fnord77 wrote:
| has the same problem as bicycles - if a pickup truck collides
| with you, you're going to be a grease stain on the road.
| soheil wrote:
| > Pedaling warms the user, making electric heating in winter
| unnecessary.
|
| I don't know who edited this in the wiki, but this type of
| talking down to people is probably one of the top reasons the
| culture of biking in the US even in places like San Francisco
| never resonated with people. There are just too many
| condescending bike enthusiasts who think biking is the next best
| thing invented after sliced bread and everyone else is an idiot
| for not seeing the light.
| krysp wrote:
| I'm not sure how this is talking down to anybody. It's
| generally true that if you're cycling in the winter (I do it in
| the UK) you'll be perfectly warm even wearing minimal clothing.
| The first 5 minutes might be a bit chilly if you're just in
| shorts, but after that you'll warm right up.
|
| If you find bike enthusiasts condescending that's a shame. It
| is a great way to travel - environmentally friendly, cost
| efficient, and actually often quicker than public transport
| (even cars) within major cities. Certainly more convenient, as
| you don't need to wait for a train or bus, and can generally
| lock it up just about anywhere.
|
| From my experience in the US, the main issue isn't an image
| problem, just that the road infrastructure has been designed
| with no thought for cyclists; and the distances (outside of
| places like NYC and San Fran) are just huge.
| el_nahual wrote:
| Another example of how, if you had to design a vehicle for
| passenger city/suburban use, you would never ever ever come up
| with an ICE sedan, or to be honest even an electrical vehicle of
| "normal" proportions.
|
| Pretty sure the car is the most harmful invention of the 20th
| century. The damage it has done to the environment, our health,
| and social fabric is hard to grok.
|
| A couple edits for clarification:
|
| - I'm talking about using cars to transport individuals to work,
| school, lunch, errands, etc
|
| - Cars are _very_ harmful to health. Most obviously, they kill a
| lot of people. There 's over one million road deaths worldwide
| _per year_ [0]. (Covid killed 4M). Less obviously, they are
| terrible for health. Living next to busy roadways is linked to
| increased dementia and other neurodegenerative diseases. This has
| nothing to do with CO2--it's the rubber and metal and not
| addressed by Teslas or whatever.
|
| - Cars make people dumber. Students who move to schools downwind
| of busy roads have lower test scores [1].
|
| - Less obvious is the damage to social fabric. It's not just a
| distance thing: it's an _estrangement_ thing. People in cars skip
| the places they move through as opposed to inhabiting them. Think
| about some busy thoroughfare at night near your home. Does it
| feel safe?
|
| - Think about Houston. Think about Mumbai. Think about Lagos.
|
| - Getting rid of cars does not mean everyone has to use public
| transport. In fact that was my point. You can design a vehicle
| that takes you quickly from a -> b that doesn't weigh 2 tons and
| uses 18m^2 at rest.
|
| - Getting rid of cars does not mean getting rid of ambulances
| ffs.
|
| But my main issue isn't how bad this all is: it's how
| _unnecessary_ it is. As a species we are more than capable (as
| evidenced by the OP!) of building a variety of modes of transport
| that are better in most every way (utility, externalities, price)
| to cars.
|
| [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-
| safety/index...
|
| [1]
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-04/pollution...
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| >> As a species we are more than capable (as evidenced by the
| OP!) of building a variety of modes of transport that are
| better in most every way (utility, externalities, price) to
| cars.
|
| As a species, yes, but -and I know this sounds hokey- we are
| not in control of the automobile industry. _Market forces_ are
| -and we don 't control those, either. Like so many mythical
| creators, we have lost control of our creation and it's not
| destroying us.
|
| What's worse, we have now raised multiple generations of humans
| who know no other way of being and for whom any alternative is
| unthinkable, or ridiculous. "What, I'll go around the city
| pedalling my little three-wheel bike? That's stupid!".
|
| Alternatives will have to be _a lot_ better than automobiles to
| be able to replace them: be much cheaper, much more
| comfortable, much more convenient. Is there anything like that
| on the horizon?
| kiliantics wrote:
| This is a completely ahistorical take. The roads didn't all
| come out of nowhere and the railways that used to go
| everywhere didn't just magically disappear. And market forces
| didn't make these transformations either. Regulation is what
| got us into this mess and regulation can get us out.
|
| We have also regulated away many things that were favoured by
| markets but had negative consequences. And there are plenty
| examples of people who are happy to do the less convenient
| thing and even end up enjoying it. Including switching from
| cars to bikes, which has happened in a number of European
| countries.
| heresie-dabord wrote:
| > You can design a vehicle that takes you quickly from a -> b
| that doesn't weigh 2 tons and uses 18m^2 at rest.
|
| The Smart Electric and the Fiat 500e are notable examples of
| practical errand vehicles that use space and energy
| efficiently.
|
| However, they are not the answer that consumers want to hear in
| the transportation dystopia of US society, where every vehicle
| must be an armoured car that can take a family of consumers
| (with at least one dog) through a vast zombie-apocalypse
| wasteland to fill the pantry at $warehouse-sized-retailer.
|
| What most people _think_ they need for a vehicle is often a
| grotesque exaggeration of their likely needs and perhaps also a
| masochistic acceptance of absurd network congestion called
| "commuting".
| trabant00 wrote:
| > if you had to design a vehicle for passenger city/suburban
| use, you would never ever ever come up with an ICE sedan
|
| I use a motorcycle 90% of the time in the city. But there's a
| lot of problems with any specialized transport like this:
|
| - parking multiple vehicles per person
|
| - learning to drive multiple type of vehicles
|
| - bicycle/scooter/Twike can't be used for serious shopping
|
| - safety. From the time electric scooters caught on I have
| numerous examples of people getting seriously hurt with
| permanent quality of life affecting injuries.
|
| - taking passengers on anything other than a car is non trivial
|
| - most alternative forms of transport require good physical
| health and skills
|
| I'm sure I could think of more but these are enough to explain
| why having a do it all vehicle (even if poorly and costly)
| makes sense for the majority of people.
| dsr_ wrote:
| One more, hinted at but not explicit in your list:
|
| The variation in task requirements for a vehicle is high, so
| it is economically efficient to buy a single vehicle suited
| for as many tasks as possible.
|
| If you can acquire a limited vehicle for a much lower price
| (including parking, safety, and other externalities) it can
| be useful to do so -- but the limited vehicles are generally
| too expensive.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| > - safety. From the time electric scooters caught on I have
| numerous examples of people getting seriously hurt with
| permanent quality of life affecting injuries.
|
| Do you not know anyone who has had a life-affecting injury or
| was killed while in a car? Not saying scooters don't have
| their risks, but pretending cars are a paragon of safety
| seems to be the result of availability bias.
| usrusr wrote:
| > Less obvious is the damage to social fabric. It's not just a
| distance thing: it's an estrangement thing.
|
| Anecdotal data point: pre-pandemic I was insisting on going to
| work by subway instead of cycling despite the bike being almost
| twice as fast. Because on the subway, I see people, whereas on
| the bike I only see cars. The people on the subway I'd only
| ignore, hard, (being a somewhat unsociable person in a somewhat
| unsociable region of a somewhat unsociable country), but that's
| still a far more human interaction than coexisting with cars.
| There are people inside, but the only time you notice is when
| they are at being a particularly bad driver. All other times it
| feels more like being in a herd of large, sluggish steel
| beasts.
| benrbray wrote:
| For anyone who has trouble understanding this perspective
| because they've lived in car-dependent hell their entire lives,
| I recommend the Not Just Bikes channel. He does extremely
| detailed comparisons of US cities vs Netherlands and other
| places. Here is a recent one [1].
|
| For me, I always felt that something was wrong about American
| cities / suburbs but I couldn't quite put my finger on it.
| Then, I spent a few months in Tokyo and something "clicked".
| It's an entirely different paradigm that forced me to
| reevaluate what I thought was possible.
|
| When I returned to the US, on the ride from the airport my
| first thought was: Everyone in this traffic jam is going the
| same direction, and would fit in a handful of train cars. Why
| are we OK with this??
|
| People say trains are expensive, but they don't realize how
| much money we spend on cars. Americans spent $1.1 TRILLION on
| personal vehicles in 2017 [2], not including the hundreds of
| billions spent yearly on road maintenance. Redirecting a
| fraction of that money would more than pay for high-speed rail.
|
| Let's do a crude estimate. Using the chart here [3], we can
| expect to pay somewhere between $3-163 million USD per mile of
| high-speed rail. The distance from NY to LA is 2789.9 miles.
|
| At $100M/mile, which is excessive, it would still only cost
| $279 billion. We could build THREE transcontinental high-speed
| rail lines every year with the money we spend on personal
| automobiles. If we're as cost-effective as Japan at $2.6 M /
| mile, we could afford to build 384,000 miles of high speed rail
| every YEAR.
|
| Subway lines in a city are more expensive, around $200-400 M /
| mile, but of course there are fewer miles to cover, so the
| result is the same. New York pays an excessive $2.5 billion per
| mile, but my understanding is that is due more to corruption
| and red tape.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxykI30fS54
|
| [2] https://www.itdp.org/2019/05/23/high-cost-transportation-
| uni...
|
| [3] https://reason.org/wp-
| content/uploads/files/high_speed_rail_...
| leokennis wrote:
| If you can read Dutch, recommend this book:
| https://decorrespondent.nl/hetrechtvandesnelste
|
| Very good introduction on how the few people (~15%) who
| really benefit from driving cars dictate far more than their
| share of public space, cause 99% of traffic deaths etc.
| lucideer wrote:
| Another +1 on Not Just Bikes.
|
| Something many people overlook about Netherlands is how
| reliant on public transport they aren't. City design enabling
| local amenities to actually be truly local (within walking
| distance) is an underestimated boon. That's enormously easier
| to do in practice without the burden of highways and
| carparks.
|
| There's also a general myth about Europe being "forced" into
| smaller more localized city plans by having older cities with
| smaller streets (accidentally creating more "local" urban
| environments) but that's not really the case. Road-widening
| projects have been common in many old European cities for
| centuries; the cities that are human-friendly are the ones
| who've undertaken the gargantuan task of reversing a lot of
| these car-oriented urban plans[0]
|
| [0] https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-
| bic...
| brudgers wrote:
| _We could build THREE transcontinental high-speed rail lines
| every year with the money we spend on personal automobiles_
|
| Once you get to the western mountains, there are only four
| rail grades that are suitable for freight. The old Northern
| through Montana near Glacier National Park; the original
| Union/Central Pacific route along the Platte and over the
| Sierras around Donner Pass; the ATSF route across the
| Colorado Plateau south of the Grand Canyon at Flagstaff and
| over the Sierras at Tehechapi via the loop, and the all
| weather grade through the Gadsden Purchase along the Mexico
| border.
|
| The reason there are so few routes is simply geography. North
| America's mountains run north-south and there is more than a
| thousand miles of them between Denver and the coast. And
| since the west is dry much of what is west of the first line
| of mountains is desert as well as mountains.
|
| Those are the grades that work for freight to the west coast.
| Notably, none serve much population between the Mississippi
| River and the Pacific. West of the Mississippi the US
| population density is low. The densest state California has
| about 1/5 the density of the Netherlands. The second most
| dense, Arizona is 1/20 as dense.
| hengheng wrote:
| How's the geology compared to regions of the world that
| have a dense rail network? I've always found it strange
| that the stereotype for great rail infrastructure was
| Switzerland, which would be last on my list of countries to
| equip.
|
| French TGV climbs 3.5%, German ICE climbs 4%. That
| simplifies a lot of the route planning. Rail bridges are
| surprisingly simple and cheap (open area, known loads, no
| salt) and tunnels are easier the simpler the rock.
|
| I'd say it's no harder than any of the _other_ miracles
| that we 're building on the regular.
| brudgers wrote:
| Compared to the geography of Switzerland, it makes sense
| to talk of a trans-continental railroad in the US and is
| absurd in relation to Switzerland. You can put three
| Switzerland's (or one Portugal) in the Mojave desert.
|
| To put it another way, Europeans haven't built high speed
| rail from London to Baku for similar reasons. The tree
| lined cloisters where political theory makes all nation
| states equal is not a good model of physical
| reality.Swiss rail hasn't connected Bern to Baghdad.
| tpm wrote:
| Europeans haven't built high speed rail from London to
| Baku mostly because they (we) can't agree that's in their
| best interest and then invest accordingly.
|
| The Swiss did vote for and consequently built things like
| the Gotthard Base Tunnel.
|
| The Chinese are also building a lot of rail
| infrastructure and are of a similar size to the US. But
| then they have higher population density. But it's
| probably more a question of political priorities than
| physical realities.
| brudgers wrote:
| It is a question of economics. Because it is engineering
| and cost benefit analysis is part of engineering.
|
| The US geography makes high speed rail at the Federal
| level economically infeasible. Air transport reaches
| everyone including Alaska and Hawaii and Puerto Rico.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Switzerland's unusual geography, population distribution,
| and history have given them an unusual set of skills. :)
|
| I'd venture that American rail could have looked similar
| if the North American continent was made up of dozens of
| countries instead of just one, forcing at least one of
| those countries to use the Rockies more comprehensively.
| jeffchien wrote:
| Extremely minor nit, but it should be point out that Japan is
| cost efficient because they've mostly built out their "easy"
| terrain, especially for Tokaido line (the current Tokyo-Osaka
| line).
|
| The Shin-Hakodate to Sapporo extension will cost them 1.24T
| yen for 131 km of many tunnels and bridges [0], or US
| $83M/mi. This cost is why it's taken Japan so long to build a
| complete Tokyo-Sapporo HSR line, even though the Tokyo-
| Sapporo air route has been one of the most popular air routes
| for a long time [1].
|
| They're also working on the Chuo Line which is a new Tokyo-
| Nagoya-Osaka line going through mountainous terrain that will
| facilitate 67-minute travel between Tokyo and Osaka. This
| line will cost 9T yen for 438km [2], which will be a whopping
| US $187M/mi.
|
| Funnily enough, speaking of the Tokaido line, the president
| of Japanese National Railway and the chief engineer resigned
| before its completion due to cost overruns [3]. Japan makes
| it look easy, but the Shinkansen had a troubled start.
|
| In comparison, for the CA HSR [4], the fairly flat Central
| California portion is costing $19.5B / 199 mi ($98M/mi) while
| the more challenging Palmdale-Burbank section is costing
| $16.8B / 41 mi ($382M/mi).
|
| I know you use it as a figure of speech, but all of this
| means that a US intercontinental line going through the
| Rockies would be difficult. Still, I would love to see an
| intra-Texas, Midwest, or East Coast HSR in my lifetime.
|
| [0] https://www.town.kutchan.hokkaido.jp/town_administration/
| shi...
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_passenger_a
| ir_...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuo_Shinkansen
|
| [3] https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140714-built-for-
| speed...
|
| [4] https://hsr.ca.gov/about/high-speed-rail-business-
| plans/2020...
| Kaze404 wrote:
| Cities with well thought out public transportation sometimes
| feel like magic. As a country girl who once moved to a
| metropolis, the fact that I could walk into literally any
| subway station and go wherever I wanted in a matter of 30
| minutes to an hour at most felt more liberating than I could
| think of. In a city bigger than some European countries, I
| had the option to go anywhere I wanted on the weekend for the
| low price of R$4 and an hour or so listening to music with no
| stress in my mind.
|
| I hope one day people in the US can experience this feeling
| as well.
| Akronymus wrote:
| Speaking of subways: IMO vienna has THE best system
| overall. No turnstiles[1], clean subway trains/stations,
| quite frequent and cheap (1EUR a day with the yearly
| ticket).
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-X25pH1XQ
| etc-hosts wrote:
| Loved Vienna's subways. I don't read German so I could
| not figure out how to buy a ticket.
| Akronymus wrote:
| https://www.welcomepickups.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2017/09/DS... Pretty sure those have a
| english language option.
| heresie-dabord wrote:
| > go wherever I wanted in a matter of 30 minutes to an hour
| at most
|
| This concept of traversal-by-foot as an inherent measure of
| scalability is also known as the Marchetti Constant.
|
| This article has appeared on HN before:
|
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-29/the-
| commu...
| baud147258 wrote:
| > Cities with well thought out public transportation
| sometimes feel like magic.
|
| That reminds that one time where I borrowed a car after not
| using one for quite some time (moving on foot or by public
| transportation) and I remember a feeling of freedom, being
| able to go just about anywhere, not depending on unregular
| lines or taxis (which would have taken me where I went
| anyway, especially as I arrived late in the night). For
| going in the countryside, cars are unmatched, but I also
| appreciate efficient public transportation in cities
| agent008t wrote:
| There could be some 'grass-is-greener' effect in play here as
| well though. Many that grew up having to use public
| transportation would see being able to use a private car as
| very appealing. I think everyone hates commutes regardless of
| whether they have to stand in a packed train car next to
| sweaty people, or sit in an air conditioned comfortable car
| listening to music but stuck in a traffic jam.
|
| That's not to say that I like the American design of where
| you _have_ to drive everywhere. I like living in a town where
| you can walk to shops and cafes. But I also like the freedom
| and the comfort and the fun of being able to get into a car
| and drive out.
| benrbray wrote:
| What I like about a place like Tokyo is that you can choose
| the mode of transportation that is most suitable for your
| journey. If you're someone who likes cars, there's no
| shortage of roads and highways. It's a great way to travel
| into the mountains where the trains can't go.
|
| Personally, I use my bike whenever possible, up to about a
| 30 minute journey. Farther than that, or when the weather
| is bad, I use the train. If I need to go somewhere remote,
| I can rent a car or call a taxi.
|
| As for a commute, housing is cheaper here than you'd
| expect, partly because housing is not viewed as an
| investment. It's not difficult to live near where you work,
| if avoiding the trains is a priority for you.
| jfroma wrote:
| As a person raised in a country where public transportation
| sucks and roads are scarce and full of potholes, I am in
| love of American highways as much as with European public
| transportation. In fact, I also love NY subway, the way you
| can move to any part of the city without knowing anything
| and following just google maps directions of which subte
| take.
|
| The highways in America are super easy to navigate with
| carplay/gps and to be honest, and I have yet to see a jam
| where your car is completely stopped for more than 10
| minutes. What I see is a dance of cars where every car
| travels to cruise speed.. another thing I'd mention is that
| I consider americans good drivers and very respectful of
| the laws compared to other countries.
| tibbetts wrote:
| There could be, but I can't think of anyone I know who grew
| up with transit who talks about how much they love car
| centric suburbia. I do know people who like that their kids
| are in greener spaces, which is related.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| The problem is that this freedom and comfort and fun of
| driving is only part of the deal. The rest is being stuck
| in traffic or looking for parking - and I suspect that
| accounts for most of the time driving, for most people,
| especially when driving to work (i.e. during rush hours).
| rraihansaputra wrote:
| +1 on Not Just Bikes. I also like he also iterates that
| public transport actually is his preference above cycling,
| but Netherlands has such good bicycle infrastructure to make
| it work.
|
| I lived in Brisbane, Australia for a year. The good state of
| public transport there (at least for my use, commuting
| to/from Uni (UQ) and the city from Toowong) made car use non-
| essential. The sidewalks are maintained and have enough space
| to the road to not be alarmed by cars. To get further/certain
| parts of Brisbane is still a chore as it's still a car-
| centric infrastructure, but comparing it to Jakarta,
| Indonesia/metro US, it's much better. Public transport in
| Jakarta is an option for most, but the last-mile experience
| with subpar sidewalks (especially the lack of shade) make it
| such a chore.
|
| I felt much healthier to walk and take public transport for
| my daily commute, and not to mention the beautiful views on
| the way. The increase in my Quality of Life is very apparent.
| I really miss it, and looking to move to Brisbane or another
| city with similar/better commute/transport paradigm in the
| future.
| refurb wrote:
| This is a funny take as I live in a developing country and
| owning a car is seen as the mark of a successful person.
|
| No more waiting for public transport. No more getting soaked
| walking or riding a bike in the rain.
|
| Convenience, comfort, time efficient.
|
| To say a sedan would be designed today is a ridiculous take.
| Nobody forced cars on people, they wanted them.
| el_nahual wrote:
| Of course they are seen as the mark of a succesful
| person...because they _are_ the mark of a successful person.
| Cars are expensive!
|
| And yes, they are convenient, comfortable and can be time
| efficient, but with extraordinary negative externalities.
|
| The issue isn't "cars are inconvenient"--the issue is "cars
| have _enormous_ (and compounding) negative externalities that
| need to be regulated away, and investment needs to be made in
| alternative infrastructure because cars really suck for
| everyone else--and eventually, for car owners themselves. "
| Xylakant wrote:
| In germany, policies in the 60ies and 70ies were designed to
| increase car ownership. People didn't want cars. They wanted
| transportation from A to B and public policies made cars the
| most attractive option.
| smnrchrds wrote:
| How is the situation in Germany today? Are cities car-
| dependant or not? Does an average middle class German own a
| car? Do they use their car for commute to work?
| Xylakant wrote:
| That depends. In the city of Berlin, less than 50% of all
| households own a car. Where I grew up, public transport
| has mostly been gutted. Nearly everyone owns a car.
| refurb wrote:
| I'm not against public transit. I lived in Taiwan for a
| while which has very good public transport. But what's good
| for a single person doesn't necessarily work for a family
| living outside the city. The benefits of owning a car are
| pretty clear there.
| Xylakant wrote:
| > The benefits of owning a car are pretty clear there.
|
| Today they might be, but for example the village I grew
| up in had light rail until an autobahn was built and the
| rails torn out. Today, the only way to get around is a
| car - but this is a deliberate choice.
| auxym wrote:
| >you would never ever ever come up with an ICE sedan
|
| What's worse is that even sedans are losing popularity in favor
| of SUVs and full size trucks. In 2021 I find this staggering.
|
| On electric cars: we've had politicians subtly suggest that EVs
| will be a magic solution to all our transportation problems,
| including traffic. EVs obviously won't fix city congestion.
| everdrive wrote:
| I think this is a great point, and I've always been on board
| with the general damage done by cars. The solutions I read
| about are nearly always focused around the cities. Now, this
| makes sense, since most people live in cities, and so you can
| make the biggest impact there. But what about people who live
| in the country or rural areas? What solutions are there for
| those sorts of folks?
| el_nahual wrote:
| Even in the USA with it's massive sprawl, most (80%+) of the
| population is urbanized [0].
|
| The ideal mobility framework is one of interconnected small
| towns/cities (ideally via rail) with non-vehicle traffic for
| intra town movements.
|
| People that live out in a farm can drive in (although to be
| honest even distances of 10 miles can be very conveniently
| travelled in an ebike).
|
| There's four things that prevent this sort of network from
| taking hold:
|
| 1. At least in the US, the inter-town rail networks have been
| disbanded or neuterd to a useless extent.
|
| 2. No investment for inter-town bus service. You can get to
| the big city by bus, but not between towns.
|
| 3. In most of the small towns in the USA, "main" street is
| actually a state highway routinely seeing traffic speeds of
| 50+mph. In other words, the town is divided right down the
| middle by a highway, with most commerce clustered around this
| area. This means that even for intra-small-town traffic
| biking (and sometimes even walking due to a lack of
| sidewalks!) is dangerous.
|
| [0]: https://www.census.gov/programs-
| surveys/geography/guidance/g...
| kiliantics wrote:
| Trains can still go into the countryside. They used to in
| much of the US and still do in a lot of Europe. Then there
| are buses too.
| benrbray wrote:
| I've always fancied the German style of having dense clusters
| of houses/shops around a major train station / highway, with
| farmland in between. Look at satellite imagery [1] around
| Stuttgart, for instance. You can totally have walkable city
| centers in less crowded areas.
|
| Of course Germany is not the United States. I don't know
| anything about agriculture, or to what extent the needs of
| German agriculture vs US agriculture would be met by such an
| arrangement. But this being HN, maybe someone knowledgeable
| can chime in!
|
| [1] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Stuttgart,+Germany/@48.
| 662...
| matt_the_bass wrote:
| I agree with many of your points. One not though, in the state
| where I live, we have awful drivers (I think) and covid deaths
| in 2020 were ~100x average yearly motor vehicle deaths.
| gumby wrote:
| > Pretty sure the car is the most harmful invention of the 20th
| century.
|
| A bit of perspective: the automobile _cleaned up_ cities, which
| used to have a huge infrastructure to manage animal waste. The
| automobile enabled freedoms: not just freedom to travel, which
| the manufacturers emphasize, but freedom of association,
| unlocked a wider freedom to work, in particular for women, and
| in general, ironically, enabled the growth of cities which are
| themselves not only environmentally more efficient but act as
| crucibles of growth.
|
| This is not some pro-car screed -- I myself got rid of my cars
| four years ago and primarily get around on foot, bike, and
| train. I also recognize the malign influence of the automobile,
| both IC and electric. But there is an enormous literature on
| the sociology and economics of the automobile, and I think a
| blanket condemnation, especially the extreme you mention, is
| utterly unwarranted.
| everdrive wrote:
| Are you two equivocating between different kinds of "clean?"
| Animal waste vs. exhaust, metal, and brake and tire
| particles?
| drewcoo wrote:
| Is it equivocation to call both a puddle and a downpour
| wet? No.
|
| Same for clean here. These are not different definitions of
| the same word. They are different members of the same
| category.
| andai wrote:
| Still, there's an important distinction between a fine
| mist of Alzheimer's inducing particles, and a puddle of
| horse piss.
| gumby wrote:
| Assuming that "equivocating" was a typo:
|
| I'm not defending the automobile as some paragon. I'm
| pointing out the lack of historical perspective, without
| which it's hard to evaluate both the impact/value of the
| automobile and the impact/value of alternatives. A post hoc
| ergo propter hoc argument rarely leads to insight, much
| less useful decision.
|
| The animal waste was a huge public health and economic
| issue, one almost inconceivable today. The automobile
| unlocked huge human rights and economic values. So you
| can't shift modes of transport (people have tried!) without
| addressing those as well.
|
| And I recognize this even though I prefer a non-automobile
| lifestyle and have lived in cities with functioning public
| transport (Melbourne, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo, NYC).
| everdrive wrote:
| Definitely not a typo -- I understood "equivocating" to
| mean "switching between two meanings of a word." Do I
| have that wrong? Either way, I hear you on the historical
| argumentation here: a lot of the complaints people have
| today may have some validity, but are often wholly
| ahistorical: they are blind to just how much progress we
| have made in many areas, and how hard fought that
| progress is.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The automobile did _not_ clean up the streets. The personal
| automobile was much too expensive for that.
|
| Buses and trams and metros and transport trucks and railways
| and bicycles cleaned up the streets. The average person
| didn't own a car and use it daily until much after the
| streets "cleaned up".
| gumby wrote:
| Do you have some references for this bold statement? The
| development of busses, trams, metros etc increased urban
| traffic (much as widening highways increases traffic, and
| traffic jams) including animal-drawn traffic, at least in
| the cities where I have read up on the history of urban
| transportation (in particular London, Paris, and New York).
|
| The GP mentioned Mumbai, which only recently banned animal
| traffic. It was packed before the automobile was developed.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The automobile simply did not do it.
|
| Until the late 50s, most households in the US did not
| have a car :
| https://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2013/02/was-rise-of-car-
| own...
|
| Without a car, the only solution is public transport. And
| public transport in early 20th century America was the
| dominant source of the use of animals in personal
| transport.
|
| The confounding factor here is transport, hence why I
| mentioned trucks. Go to for example Tiznit in Morocco and
| observe how animals are used. They're not used for
| personal transport - they're not efficient for that in
| city environment - their use is moving merchandise.
| qwertygnu wrote:
| Do you have any references for yours?
| sunshineforever wrote:
| You comment misses the point of the parent... They are saying
| that cars at the size they are are a bad design for our world
| and cities. We'd still have clean streets, but we don't need
| something with two easy chairs and a couch built into it and
| weighing 3000 pounds.
| eightails wrote:
| > Living next to busy roadways is linked to increased dementia
| and other neurodegenerative diseases. This has nothing to do
| with CO2--it's the rubber and metal and not addressed by Teslas
| or whatever.
|
| I had thought that the pathological effects from highway
| pollution was at least partially caused by heavy metals and
| various unpleasant nitrates and sulfurs and the like produced
| by combustion engines, not only the small particulates released
| from tyres and roads. Obviously combustion-based pollution
| would be reduced if not eliminated by EVs.
|
| See e.g. this study, which found NO2 and elemental carbon
| pollution to be most harmful amongst various highway
| pollutants: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24231417/
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| I hate owning a car. It's expensive, sits on my driveway 90% of
| the time doing nothing and takes up loads of space. However our
| society is built around car ownership, and the same problem,
| plus a few others, occurred when we all used horses.
|
| I always liked the personal transport tubes in Futurama
| yetihehe wrote:
| It would be nice if I had other options, but for now ALL
| other options are more expensive when considering time or
| money. That is reality for too many people, so we are where
| we are.
| Helmut10001 wrote:
| Add to this list: The estrangement that happens when people
| drive with their SUVs. A car built like a tank entails a
| certain behavioral or interaction with other people that is
| detrimental to social cohesion and empathy.
| LightG wrote:
| 100% this.
|
| I live near a school and witnessing the quality of social
| interactions from Mums* , encapsulated by their SUV-tanks as
| if controlling a Gundam, is a sight to behold.
|
| * Sorry, it mainly is Mums in this situation. And I'm fully
| cognizant of ejut Dads/Men driving madly in other situations.
| engineer_22 wrote:
| I have heard in german-speaking countries they call those
| style of automobiles "hausfraupanzers". For me, it evokes a
| silly image of a militant soccer-mom in a tank. I love it.
| kiliantics wrote:
| In the UK, they get referred to as Chelsea tractor, or
| Chelsea tank. (Chelsea being a rich part of London where
| they first got popular)
| htek wrote:
| I love the freedom of bicycling, but I hate dealing with
| people driving cars. I sort of understand why the more
| militant bicyclists call them "cagers." As I remember angrily
| explaining to a motorist who thought nothing of fishtailing
| into my lane after barely passing me (I was biking in the
| shoulder between the white line and edge of the asphalt), "if
| I make a mistake, I get killed, if you make a mistake, I get
| killed."
| adflux wrote:
| Spoken as someone who hasn't ever driven a person to a
| hospital, or had to travel to work by car, or had to be driven
| to school by a school bus etc etc etc
| nondave wrote:
| I've had to do all of those things, and still agree that
| towns and cities being designed with cars as the default mode
| of transport is insane
| adflux wrote:
| I'm just curious if you grew up in a very large city and
| haven't been to other countries? Because public transport
| as a primary form of transportation simply isn't feasible
| in many places. And I was responding to the statement about
| cars being the worst invention of the 21st century...
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| Public transport is feasible in smaller cities and towns
| too. Freiburg im Breisgau is a great example. 230,000
| people, pedestrianised centre, 5 tram lines, very low car
| usage. When I lived there, everyone I knew either walked,
| cycled or used the tram.
| user-the-name wrote:
| It isn't feasible because it was designed around the idea
| that everyone would have cars.
|
| Again, the cars are the _reason_ it was _made to be_
| infeasible. Cars damaged our cities.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| That's a reasonable point, but doesn't particularly
| address the issue.
| user-the-name wrote:
| The point was "the car is the most harmful invention of
| the 20th century".
| zeepzeep wrote:
| It isn't feasible because it wasn't designed as main way
| of transportation.
| laumars wrote:
| A great many European countries have proven it is
| practical. In fact in some cities it's more beneficial
| not to drive (London and Amsterdam to give two examples
| of wildly different cities yet both favour public
| transport)
| beardyw wrote:
| Yes, being suburban Londoners in early 2020 we were
| checking the car would start periodically and
| contemplating getting rid of it. But then Covid struck,
| and us being high risk, public transport suddenly looked
| really unattractive. We haven't used it since. It is such
| a shame. We still use the car sparingly and one day
| hopefully have that conversation about scrapping it
| again.
| rorykoehler wrote:
| Cycling is way quicker in Berlin for all sub 7km journeys
| faeyanpiraat wrote:
| It's fine, the main problem is that 90% (imaginary data) of
| the cars in cities are not used.
|
| If all "normal" people used car sharing services or taxis,
| then a lot of roads could have 1 more lane (where parking
| normally occurs), which would increase the throughput of
| the streets.
|
| All the peak hour traffic circling around their destination
| struggling to find a parking spot would also disappear.
|
| This would reduce the overall traffic noticeably, and
| everyone would get to their destination quicker and with
| less stress.
|
| The problem with this is that so many people obbsess over
| vehicle ownership, that probably banning car ownership
| (with reasonable exceptions like modified cars for
| accomodating disabilities, oldtimers, cars with baby seats
| installed, etc..) in cities would be required to make this
| happen.
|
| Speaking from an experience living in a big city, where I
| owned a car, but transitioned to using car sharing, even
| for long trips around the country.
| usrusr wrote:
| One problem is that there's a long tail of car use cases
| that are served terribly by things like car-sharing. For
| example if you rent a car for a few hours of driving, two
| weeks of parking at some trailhead or remote resort and
| then driving back it's inevitably priced for the wear and
| tear that would happen if you spent the entire two weeks
| doing nothing but sleeping and driving. Rentals that
| aren't dead-set on the pattern "a few days of driving
| between arrival and departure" exist, but they have
| terrible discoverability and that implies that prices
| fell arbitrary ("is this close to the price I would get
| in a market with full visibility or are they just taking
| advantage of nonstandard needs?")
|
| I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's still
| plenty of room for innovation in the non-owned car
| market.
| Xylakant wrote:
| I think people underestimate the price of owning a car
| vs. renting one. I can rent a VW Golf in Berlin for <350
| EUR per week, 1000km included. The ADAC (car owners
| association) puts the monthly price tag for owning such a
| car at > 500 EUR per month. (assuming you buy it new, own
| it for 5 years and drive 15000km/year) https://www.adac.d
| e/_mmm/pdf/autokostenuebersicht_47085.pdf
|
| That means I can rent that car for ~5 month and still
| come out ahead.
| isbadawi wrote:
| There must be a typo somewhere in your comment, I don't
| understand how 350/week for 5 months is better than
| 500/month.
| MawKKe wrote:
| I guess what GP meant is that you can rent only whenever
| you need it, as opposed to 500/month for _every_ month
| you own?
| Xylakant wrote:
| I actually meant "rent the car for X month", but I made
| some mistakes here. First, I took the exact numbers for
| the calculation, but rounded them generously in favor of
| owning the car in the post. Second I made some sort of
| mistake, doing the math, so I'm still slightly off. The
| correct math:
|
| The smallest golf on the list is 579 EUR/Month, that's
| 6.948 EUR per year. Renting a Golf at starcar costs 1436
| EUR for the month of August. That's 4.84, just shy of 5.
| dsr_ wrote:
| "last mile" problems are real -- and frequently rather
| more than 1.6 Km.
| bmn__ wrote:
| > the main problem is that 90% (imaginary data) of the
| cars in cities are not used
|
| Reality is even worse than your imagination.
|
| https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=cars+are+parked+*+o
| f+t...
| frereubu wrote:
| This response comes across as really churlish. I would
| absolutely drive to work in one of these if I could,
| particularly if other people were in vehicles of similar size
| that didn't pollute the air. These are clearly personal
| vehicles, so the school bus is a completely different use
| case, driving a person to a hospital, if urgent, can be done
| with an ambulance or a taxi if non-urgent etc etc etc
| adflux wrote:
| I would argue that the car has provided incredible utility
| to humanity, and that calling it the worst invention of the
| century would be doing it a massive disservice.
| frereubu wrote:
| Your comment came across very differently if that's what
| you were trying to say.
| raverbashing wrote:
| For real, I'm all for alternative modes of transportation,
| but some people seem to really do think that their groceries
| and the stuff they buy on a pedestrianized high-street appear
| there by magic.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| The way this works in many places with pedestrianised
| centres, is that it is open for goods traffic from 05:00 -
| 07:30 for example. Or, there will be some loading bays for
| goods vehicles to park nearby, with cycle wagons to take
| the goods the last 100 metres or so to the actual
| storefront.
|
| It's all about reducing the impact of motor vehicles. They
| do have benefits, nobody is arguing that all motor vehicles
| should cease to exist. But we should limit the pollution,
| noise, danger, space used up.
| raverbashing wrote:
| Oh I know. But the carrot works better than the stick in
| this case.
|
| > nobody is arguing that all motor vehicles should cease
| to exist. But we should limit the pollution, noise,
| danger, space used up.
|
| There is some antagonism, especially unhelpful
| antagonism. Because what works for a city-center dweller
| might not work for a rural area inhabitant.
|
| Reminds me of the activists that pushed for nuclear power
| plants to close. The road to hell is paved with good
| intentions.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| > Because what works for a city-center dweller might not
| work for a rural area inhabitant
|
| Well, I don't think that anybody is proposing that we
| pedestrianise someone's farm, because we're also
| pedestrianising town centres. I'm not sure I understand
| the comparison here, really.
| raverbashing wrote:
| > I'm not sure I understand the comparison here, really.
|
| Look up what motivated the (initial) Gillets Jaunes
| protests in France
| el_nahual wrote:
| Well, that's why I specified for "passenger" use.
|
| Of course it makes sense for groceries to be transported in
| a truck.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Couldn't agree more. I have come to really really hate cars.
| One of my short term goals is to find a job I don't need to
| commute to by car. This is shockingly difficult in the
| midwestern US.
| Lukas_Skywalker wrote:
| The german Wikipedia page has pictures of some more recent
| versions: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twike
| cstuder wrote:
| Driving them feels like sitting in a space ship.
|
| Source: I've driven one for a couple of minutes once a couple of
| years ago. In Switzerland they are kept alive and running by a
| number of enthusiasts.
| xunn0026 wrote:
| Interesting but extraordinarily expensive. I assume current
| battery tech, etc. should provide a much lower price.
| tromp wrote:
| The Dutch manufacturer velomobiel.nl has developed a two person
| version of its popular Quest velomobile:
|
| https://www.velomobiel.nl/duoquest/
|
| Smaller English version: https://en.velomobiel.nl/duoquest/
|
| Its lack of electric support makes it rather cheaper than the
| trike.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| This sort of electrical/pedalling hybrid is an interesting space,
| but one where legislation is often a real downer.
|
| I'm currently planning to build a velomobile that I can live out
| of while cycling round Australia for a year. A trailer too,
| designed around a digital piano and some sort of fridge (either a
| production model or one constructed manually from a compressor).
|
| It'll end up heavy enough1 that I'll want to put a motor in it,
| so that for local journeys I can get from Point A to Point B more
| quickly and more confidently dispose of my car, and because
| otherwise when touring there _will_ be some hills that I simply
| can't climb, and that 200-250W2 should make it possible (though
| probably still not easy).
|
| So then I figured, how about a fully electrical drivetrain? Even
| with the best components, it'll still be a bit less efficient
| than a well-maintained chain3, but getting the chain and front
| chainrings out of the way would be great, making the decision of
| how to facilitate sleep much easier: go quadricycle (rather than
| tadpole trike, which is two wheels at the front and one at the
| back), then to sleep tilt the seat back flat, and shift the
| pedals/generator a bit out of the way, and there's no chain to
| worry about so you're ready to sleep in the vehicle.4
|
| Unfortunately, the legislation is drafted in such a way as to
| forbid such vehicles. Excerpt from Victoria's _Road Safety Road
| Rules 2017_ <https://content.legislation.vic.gov.au/sites/default
| /files/2...>:
|
| > _bicycle means a vehicle with 2 or more wheels that is built to
| be propelled partly or wholly by human power through a belt,
| chain or gears (whether or not it has an auxiliary motor)_
|
| The way they keep talking about power assistance as the use of an
| _auxiliary_ motor is troublesome, and this potentially doesn't
| even allow things like hydraulic, shaft or electrical drives. But
| then, what is an electrical wire but a belt for electrons?
|
| --
|
| 1 Though nowhere near the the two-seater Twike's unladen-save-
| batteries 246kg. I'm aiming for a this-is-my-home practical
| loaded long-term touring weight of 125kg, including things like
| 50kg of vehicle and trailer (including all vehicle electronics),
| 12kg of piano, 12kg of fridge, 12kg of battery and 5kg of solar
| panels.
|
| 2 Broadly speaking, Australia currently has two classifications:
| 200W with no speed limit, and the pedelec 250W but limited to
| 25km/h. Finer details vary by state. Not sure if you could
| legally get away with producing 250W if pedalling and under
| 25km/h, or 200W if over 25km/h (and pedalling, in some states);
| "an auxiliary motor capable of generating a power output over 200
| watts" hangs quite a bit on the interpretation of the word
| "capable".
|
| 3 An electrical drivetrain could easily be better than a poorly-
| maintained chain.
|
| 4 The main alternatives I'm considering include making the
| vehicle expandable in a way vaguely reminiscent of a pop-top van,
| and a larger and/or expandable trailer and sleep in _that_. But I
| don't want to be messing around with tents every day.
| SigmundA wrote:
| In all my research mechanical -> electrical -> mechanical
| double conversion is significantly less efficient than a direct
| mechanical drivetrain. It seems to come down to about 80% for
| the best electrical vs >95% for mechanical [1][2].
|
| Also there is a weight issue the generator is at least as heavy
| as the motor and thats a big problem on bikes.
|
| Trains do it because they need precise traction control and
| have little concern for the weight. They sacrifice running
| efficiency for it but everything else makes them very efficient
| at running (low rolling resistance and low aerodynamic drag).
|
| Also the unsprung weight of hub motors causes various issues as
| well especially if you have suspension for ride comfort. Most
| electric bikes are moving to mid drives anyway which is going
| to have a chain or belt.
|
| 1. https://pages.jh.edu/news_info/news/home99/aug99/bike.html
|
| 2. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/veltman2/
| chrismorgan wrote:
| Your 80% figure seems rather spurious, coming I think from
| extrapolating a gross simplification of some 2009 figures for
| much bigger motors. My vague understanding is that smaller
| motors are hard to get as efficient. Some things I was
| looking at last year suggested things keep improving and that
| in excess of 90% was in theory quite attainable now for such
| motor sizes, though in practice you probably won't find it on
| the market. But I did find components that should combine to
| something like 85-87%. (I don't think I wrote my findings
| down, or if I did it was on a device I don't have access to
| at present. But a quick search shows
| https://outriderusa.com/pages/electric-bike-efficiency
| claiming a motor efficiency of 93%, which if paired with a
| generator of similar efficiency would yield 86.5%, assuming
| no transmission loss which is of course unreasonable, and
| assuming the efficiency stays the same at lower power levels,
| which is likely screamingly wrong.)
|
| >95% for chain systems assumes good components excellently-
| maintained. In practice chain drives are generally somewhat
| less efficient, commonly more like 85-90% is what I think I
| read, with poorly-maintained ones often more like 65-75%.
| This is where an electrical drivetrain could really shine:
| it'll require roughly no maintenance while maintaining its
| not-best-in-class-but-still-pretty-good efficiency.
|
| These figures are all rather nebulous, and get muddied a lot
| further once you're putting a battery into the mix too,
| trying to take the power from your feet and augment it with
| another 200W of power from a battery (but preferably without
| feeding your foot-power _through_ the battery). Then I go
| from being an amateur that knows just enough to be dangerous
| to a rank ignoramus.
|
| For my purposes, an electric drivetrain would probably be
| markedly less efficient, but if it can be enough more
| _convenient_ , it could be worthwhile anyway. I also have a
| pet scheme in mind where you simulate 100% efficiency by
| adding a little more power from the battery to compensate for
| known losses. I feel that could fit within the intent of
| legislation, if only that legislation allowed electric
| drivetrains in the first place.
| samcheng wrote:
| These things are still a bit far outside the mainstream, but if
| anyone hasn't tried an ebike yet, I highly encourage it!
|
| It really is magic mobility, with the free feeling of being on a
| bike, without the sweat or the necessary fitness to travel at 20
| or even 25 mph.
|
| I don't think Twikes (or other recumbent bikes / velomobiles)
| will gain popularity in the near term, but I'm very confident
| that ebikes will continue to grow.
| hkt wrote:
| In the UK they're limited to 15mph and only operate in assist
| mode (as opposed to full drive). Where are you that allows that
| kind of speed?
| samcheng wrote:
| In the US they are limited to 20mph, unless you get the
| 'speed' version, in which case they are limited to 28mph and
| technically forbidden from most bike trails.
|
| 20mph is a pretty decent clip for a (manual) bicyclist, but
| 28mph is really moving!
| jmrm wrote:
| But who keep an eye on that? In Spain the speed limit of any
| bike is 45 km/h (around 28 mph), and when we are in the road
| with bigger limits to other vehicles, outside the city
| normally, we are faster than that (if we can) and nobody
| bothers. Even the police won't tell you anything unless
| you're doing something dangerous.
| ofrzeta wrote:
| Might be an insurance issue, though.
| gambiting wrote:
| I mean, you can absolutely go faster than 15mph on an
| electric bike in the UK, it's just that it has to stop
| providing any boost past that point.
| pornel wrote:
| The limit is a bit annoying, but in practice cars in city
| traffic aren't moving much faster than this anyway[1]. During
| rush hours even a limited bike is faster than the cars.
|
| [1] https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/19767
| hkt wrote:
| No doubt, I just had misgivings about the speed. I can't
| find anything on how much safer 15mph is vs 28mph (sibling
| comment) but imagine the difference is considerable.
| gillesjacobs wrote:
| My father has had his Twike for seven years now. I wouldn't
| recommend it, the suspension is not up to snuff, even just for
| daily commute. Getting repairs done is a major difficulty as
| there are very little parts or mechanics readily available. He
| also had to sue the Twike company when they tried to defraud us
| w.r.t. warranty and insure documents. The legal issues have been
| on-going and they stalled the repair of the Twike for about a
| year.
|
| My father now commutes by electric bicycle.
| AutumnCurtain wrote:
| Simply the cost of it (25.000 euros debut price?) seems to
| defeat the purpose. The weight being closer by far to a small
| car than an electric bike doesn't help either. I suppose people
| who need specifically that much room in their vehicle and/or
| live somewhere very cold could see utility but given the
| maintenance issues you mention I'm not surprised it isn't a big
| seller.
| chappi42 wrote:
| Nice bike/attempt but not many of them in circulation (too
| expensive, too exposed). Fwiw, pedaling does not provide a large
| fraction of the needed energy and I don't think the mechanical
| complication was worth it. Twike is the past imo.
|
| Maybe Microlino, a wonderful, stylish, energy efficient vehicle,
| will be the future (certainly smarter than the crap suv tanks one
| sees driving around here (in the inner city)).
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| > Pedaling warms the user, making electric heating in winter
| unnecessary
|
| Well that's one way to spin a missing feature ;)
| Hamuko wrote:
| Too bad it doesn't really work. Winter biking is still cold as
| shit and breathing in -20degC air is not fun.
| Tepix wrote:
| That hasn't been my experience. One the airstream is blocked
| you won't be cold for long.
| bipson wrote:
| Not in a Velomobile. Actually, you need a fan for forced
| ventilation.
| medstrom wrote:
| Or to ride semi-naked. Now there's a sight for winter.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-07-21 23:02 UTC)