[HN Gopher] Key Modi rival Rahul Gandhi among potential Indian t...
___________________________________________________________________
Key Modi rival Rahul Gandhi among potential Indian targets of NSO
client
Author : jbegley
Score : 213 points
Date : 2021-07-19 14:18 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| LoveLeadAcid wrote:
| Ghandi's well known to be a commie. Don't disagree with me, for I
| am your father.
| rishav_sharan wrote:
| So apparently most of the pro-Modi commentators are going with
| the narrative of - Congress also did it, so its ok.
|
| No its not ok. Congress is not the one in power and frankly I
| don't give two hoots about its corruptions when it was in power.
| BJP and Modi are the ones in power and they have been caught with
| their hands in the cookie jar.
| baybal2 wrote:
| India's analog of PRISM, and a complete regulatory carte blanche
| for domestic espionate is not BJP's doing. The prime majority of
| India's very, very intrusive surveillance laws were passed in
| 1999-2009.
|
| The Congress though it will rule India forever.
|
| Everything you do while in power, can be used against you when
| you loose it.
|
| I bet the Congress leadership is now pulling its hair for letting
| the 2007 telegraph act amendment go.
|
| Congress was trying to push CMS (a.k.a. India's PRISM) through
| the legislature multiple times though 200x, but only succeeded
| after Mumbai attacks.
|
| https://cis-india.org/internet-governance/blog/india-central...
|
| https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/technology/in-the-dark-abo...
|
| https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/indias-surveillance-p...
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Modi is doing it now, and violating freedoms and oppressing
| people. Congress didn't. Changing the subject is convenient for
| the criminal.
| screye wrote:
| Modi has his fair share of problems, but the English news
| coming out of India / western outlets is alarmist and has
| massive vested interests when it comes to their relations with
| the Gandhi/Congress family.
|
| For 50 years, India was practically run by the Gandhis as a
| family business. Everyone and anyone who flourished did so with
| their blessing. Any excellence that was funded was made to
| abide by central ideological ideas espoused by the Congress.
| Lastly, many family-businesses survived purely because of the
| Gandhi's patronage and suppression of any new-elite.
|
| From tenured profs to owners of top media organizations, the
| English speaking elite squarely despises Modi. Part of it is
| historical ideological filtering & a general fondness for the
| Gandhis. But, the biggest cause is that patronage and revenue
| has died out, now that the BJP does not put them on a pedestal
| nor consults with them as de facto elites. It is the collapse
| of falsely propped up elite.
|
| In this turmoil, they have turned to their only natural ally.
| The western elite at NYT, WaPo and american universities. They
| attend panels and write columns about how India is undergoing
| collapse. Because guess what ? Only western outsiders with no
| visibility into India would believe it. From abuse of UAPA to
| surveillance to the controversy regarding Rafales. You will
| find that the Congress has its hands just as dirty as the BJP.
| That's Indian politics 101.
|
| The most egregious was Modi's diplomatic visa being revoked.
| 2002 was a tragedy of huge proportions and Modi had an active
| case ongoing in the Supreme court blessed by the opposition.
| (The court systems in India are completely independent, but
| having establishment support always helps) Additionally, Modi
| was mainly accused of not-doing enough to stop it, rather than
| actively causing it. Hell, even after being acquitted as
| innocent by this adversarial supreme court, his visa was still
| no restored.
|
| > Modi remains the only person ever to be banned to travel to
| the United States of America under the International Religious
| Freedom Act (IRFA) provision of US Immigration and Nationality
| Act (INA).[42] In 2012, A Special Investigation Team (SIT)
| appointed by the Indian Supreme Court found no "prosecutable
| evidence" against Modi and cleared him of all charges
|
| Think about it. Does Modi even make page-1 of failed overseer
| during major religious riots in India?; let alone the world at
| that time ? He deserved to be chasitized for what was a
| complete failure of Govt. mechanisms, but to target him in such
| an obvious manner highlights what I am talking about.
|
| (Modi has had terrible economic policies and has mishandled
| many a scenario, but I rarely see anyone talking about either.
| Every conversation is around the same old culture war topics of
| interest to the west: Issues that have always been a problem in
| India irrespective of Modi's presence or Congress rule.
| Hilariously: Aadhar, CAA, 370 removal and the farm bill are all
| policies that were raised in some part by the previous Congress
| Govt. None of these were viewed as polarizing until Modi picked
| them up. (370 removal was polarizing, but the bill was being
| routinely weakened by every consecutive India Govt.))
| demux wrote:
| This is probably the most accurate take on Modi I've seen on
| any forum, even one as high-quality as HN. It's almost
| incredible how the blatant corruption of Congress is
| forgotten; they were even using Cambridge Analytica (which
| probably added more fuel to the media trend [0]).
|
| [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/whistle
| blo...
| sound1 wrote:
| 100% agree.
|
| > In this turmoil, they have turned to their only natural
| ally. The western elite at NYT, WaPo and american
| universities.
|
| Also add almost all publications from UK to the list
| random314 wrote:
| > Additionally, Modi was mainly accused of not-doing enough
| to stop it, rather than actively causing it.
|
| That is a misrepresentation. He was the primary organizer of
| the pogrom.
|
| In the words of the gujarat riots convict babu bajrangi, at
| 6:30 timestamp.
|
| https://youtu.be/mfnTl_Fwvbo
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haren_Pandya
|
| Haren Pandyas wife accuses Modi of planning her husband's
| murder. Modi was pandyas only real enemy.
| srean wrote:
| The legal proceedings that found insufficient evidence
| against Modi also had several flaws that benefited Modi.
| Call record metadata of BJP politicians just prior to the
| outbreak of violence was stopped from being produced in
| court. All this is part of public record and a part of
| Sanjeev Bhatt's petition to the court and murder of Modi's
| own state cabinet minister Haren Pandya who had testified
| Modi's involvement in Gujarat riots (these documents can be
| accessed and downloaded).
|
| The senior police officer Sanjeev Bhatt, then serving as an
| intelligence officer had approached the court with evidence
| and allegations about Modi's direct involvement. The call
| records were suddenly lost. Bhatt was then convicted for
| life for a death of a person who died after being released
| post questioning. This death had happened some 20 years ago
| and Bhatt, then a newly minted police officer, had been
| cleared of responsibility at that time. This incident was
| dug up, case reopened and he was convicted. Judges in
| Indian courts are often bought, by money and by favors or
| by threats of harassments.
| Bhilai wrote:
| This article has some scathing stuff. If true, these paint Modi
| govt in a very bad light. Sounds like complete abuse of power
| with no checks and balances.
|
| > Analysis of the more than 1,000 mostly Indian phone numbers
| selected for potential targeting by the NSO client that hacked
| Kishor strongly indicate intelligence agencies within the Indian
| government were behind the selection.
|
| > The phone number of a woman who accused India's then chief
| justice of sexual harassment was selected shortly after her
| claims became public, along with 10 other numbers linked to her
| including those used by her husband and two other family members.
|
| > Forensic analysis detected Pegasus activity as recently as this
| month on a phone used by Sushant Singh, a journalist who
| investigated a controversial billion-dollar contract awarded to
| one of Modi's close allies in business to build a fleet of
| fighter jets with the French manufacturer Dassault.
|
| > The Wire reporter Rohini Singh is facing civil and criminal
| defamation charges over an investigation she produced into the
| finances of the son of India's home minister, Amit Shah. She was
| selected as a target over the two years ...
| mynameismon wrote:
| This is the exact reason a strong opposition is required. The
| opposition in India at the national level is an amalgamation of
| parties with no common interests or ideologies, other than that
| of being against the government in power. It is a travesty that
| the best policies are that of the government in power, despite
| all its overreaches
| puranjay wrote:
| This government's hare brained policies are the reason why
| Indians today are poorer than they were 5 years ago. At this
| point, there is no factual evidence at all to any claim that
| the government's policies are actually effective
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > the best policies are that of the government in power
|
| Taking away Indians' freedoms, brutalizing minorities,
| upending the rule of law, promoting corruption ... I don't
| believe for a moment that Modi's policies are 'best'. India
| did very well under Congress before his election.
| manishsharan wrote:
| > India did very well under Congress before his election.
|
| I was very young when I saw (and still remember) Congress
| party goons setting fire to Sikh homes in New Delhi. I
| heard stories of how congress party workers in Delhi
| butchered countless Sikhs. Please note that I am not
| defending Modi in any way and I despise right wing fascism
| everywhere.
| legolas2412 wrote:
| Yeah. And then two people hijacked a plane to free Indira
| gandhi. This is the definition of terrorism as it is
| using violence for political purposes. Congress have
| those two party tickets and backed them in elections.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bholanath_and_Devendra_Pa
| nde...
|
| I also dislike that we have to constantly add "we are not
| defending modi". It comes from their belief that the only
| ones who criticize Congress are hindutva nationalists
| bigots. As if congress did nothing to receive the ire of
| the people.
| sremani wrote:
| The Anti-Sikh riots were not the only thing. The
| perpetrators of Anti-Sikh riots in 1984 became central
| ministers in the subsequent Congress cabinets.
|
| There are few redeeming things about Congress rule, but
| to call it very well run government is an exaggeration.
| baybal2 wrote:
| I'd say... people were so sick, and tired of congress, that
| they voted in BJP for the lack of _any_ alternative.
|
| That's why @mynameismon is very correct. When the Congress
| finally crashed in nineties, there was no contender even
| for an empty seat. Even Basu (a freaking totalitarian
| himself,) who almost got the seat, himself decided against
| at the last second.
|
| Congress too was a very authoritarian party in the past, as
| much as almost everybody else in the political arena.
| Indian politics were very violent prior up until 200x.
| There were no "good" party.
|
| If you have no credible, genuine opposition, you will not
| have a choice in between good, and bad, but in between bad,
| and bad.
|
| Take a good look on Indian political landscape in post-
| independence history, and you will understand that India,
| though all its 74 years of independent existence never had
| anything coming as an alternative to the Congress, that
| wasn't as authoritarian as Congress:
|
| -- JD, and United Front were stillborn, putting literally
| nothing on the table other than not being the Congress.
| Radiagate, Ranjan Bhattacharya.... list goes on.
|
| -- In WB, Basu was ordering hit jobs on the opposition, and
| his own fellow commies almost weekly.
|
| -- "In the liberal South" they had constant Blue/Red, and
| Hindu/Tamil violence, because local parties had nothing but
| the same caste/religion/race cards the BJP plays today.
|
| -- Maharashtra politics -- gangsterland. It was, and still
| is
| srean wrote:
| > In WB, Basu was ordering hit jobs on the opposition,
| and his own fellow commies weekly
|
| Source please. I say this in spite of being severely
| critical of Basu.
| baybal2 wrote:
| Just remember how blood the political violence in WB was
| during his reign. You think of hundred+ of political
| killings of Basu's opponents, and none were his doing?
| ...
| srean wrote:
| 100+ political killings of Basu's opponents, no I don't
| remember that. Care for a pointer, want to catch up on
| what I missed.
| programmer_dude wrote:
| > India did very well under Congress before his election.
|
| Congress, is corrupt to the T. Everyone had enough of these
| vampires. BJP was the only other viable national party. But
| I agree the situation is not ideal. I pity the residents of
| this country they are stuck between a rock and a hard
| place.
| srean wrote:
| If you are arguing that BJP is any less corrupt, PM-
| Cares, Rafale deal, electoral bonds and the sudden wealth
| of Amit Shah's son indicates otherwise
|
| https://thewire.in/business/amit-shah-narendra-modi-jay-
| shah...
|
| https://www.altnews.in/no-the-wire-didnt-apologise-in-
| the-ja... (since there are a few accounts on HN that
| spread fake news that is friendly towards the ruling
| party in India)
|
| https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/france-begins-
| judic...
| programmer_dude wrote:
| > Are you arguing that BJP is any less corrupt ?
|
| No, merely trying to explain why BJP was voted into
| power.
| sremani wrote:
| Congress ruled from 1947 - 2014 for all but about 10
| years. I cannot measure the scale of corruption, but an
| objective assessment of Indian governance would certainly
| say, which Political party casts a dark shadow.
|
| Again, my goal is not misdirection, if BJP/Modi did
| anything stupid they should face the music. To paint
| Rahul, his mommy as some innocent by standers of a
| hawkish regime makes me laugh.
|
| What Sonia did to Narasimha Rao was enough for me, to
| judge what her character or lack of it is.
| sinyug wrote:
| > What Sonia did to Narasimha Rao was enough for me, to
| judge what her character or lack of it is.
|
| Rao is one of the greatest prime ministers India has
| produced. He provided political cover to the
| liberalization policies that ended the Licence Raj in
| India (often attributed to Manmohan Singh alone). And
| this while running a minority government.
|
| A brilliant man who was treated very badly by the Gandhis
| as well as the Congress party.
| srean wrote:
| I am in complete agreement with you on this one. That
| said, it is not relevant in anyway to the news being
| discussed.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > if BJP/Modi did anything stupid they should face the
| music
|
| Stupid? How about brutal and oppressive to hundreds of
| millions (or the entire country). They clearly have.
|
| > my goal is not misdirection
|
| Then why are you talking about someone besides Modi?
| sremani wrote:
| I will post what I would like to that would add color and
| context that I desire.
|
| Na tera, na tera baap ka permission ki zarurat nahi hai
| mujhe.
| srean wrote:
| > Na tera na tera baap ka
|
| Flagged for abusive offensive language. This has no place
| on HN.
| [deleted]
| sound1 wrote:
| care to explain what exactly Modi did? are you talking
| about some genocide like what Congress did during anti
| Sikh riots? Or how thousands of Kashmiri Pandits were
| raped and slaughtered? Or how about chemical castration
| during emergency Indira Gandhi did? It all happened
| during Congress rule.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| We're talking about Modi, and what he's done is all over
| this thread and the news.
| boruto wrote:
| I feel really bad that India cannot have one decent
| national leader or party.
| sreejithr wrote:
| Depends on your leaning. Modi is moving India away from the
| Socialist Democracy it used to be. And a lot of policies
| such as Land Acquisition act, Labour codes, Farm laws etc
| are progressive if you're capitalist leaning but probably
| retrograde if you're socialist.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Democracy, freedom, human rights don't depend on my
| leaning, unless you are against those things.
| long_time_gone wrote:
| It's possible we are seeing a global political shift,
| where that is exactly what identifies your leaning. We
| have seen an increase in authoritarianism (and support
| for authoritarianism) over the past 10 years [0][1].
|
| [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10758216
| .2020.1...
|
| [1] https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/democracy/rep
| orts/20...
| sreejithr wrote:
| Do you have citations? I don't see how any of those have
| been affected more so than any of the previous Congress
| governments. If you're talking about the various
| protests, the fact that they happen is proof that
| democracy is working. Just because someone doesn't agree
| with a government's policy doesn't mean democracy is
| dead. There hasn't been a Tianenmen square in New Delhi.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| This looks like sea-lioning to me. This thread and the
| news are filled with examples.
| ithkuil wrote:
| Unfortunately doing bad and good things is not mutually
| exclusive when talking about a single person, let alone
| when it's a group of people.
|
| Whether the bad parts should be tolerated because of the
| good parts it's another matter (and given the things you're
| listed, I personally don't care about what good policies
| you do if that's the price to pay). that said we must be
| able to talk about policies and outcomes it their own right
| without tainting them with who has brought them.
| r00fus wrote:
| Modi is a fundamental nationalist, and this is one of
| literally a hundred other bad things that has been done.
|
| Basic playbook for this kind of ruler is to dismantle
| democracy - and illegally spying on his opponents is the
| first step (to remove all opposition).
| ithkuil wrote:
| I'm not saying the opposite or otherwise supporting Modi.
| I was trying to make a more subtle point about our
| ability to discuss things without always being reminded
| of the all too important political struggles we all have
| to pay attention to. Your comment seems to prove my point
| that we all have this instinct of making sure everybody
| is reminded that if you just hint that somebody awful
| could perhaps accidentally have stumbled upon a policy
| that could make sense, you should never talk about that,
| otherwise you'll give your opponent a validation. I know,
| that's how we humans work. I'm just saying that sometimes
| it's a bit unfortunate that we do work that way.
| r00fus wrote:
| No, that's not my intent at all - but wouldn't it be
| considered offtopic to bring up some other positives just
| to "balance" the discussion?
|
| If it's pertinent, by all means bring it up - but you're
| just bringing up theoretical seems all a bit ivory tower.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| In fact, my experience is the opposite with right-wing
| nationalist populists (Modi, Netanyahu, Orban, Trump,
| Boris Johnson to a significant degree, etc.): People
| don't talk about the political catastrophes; they talk
| about everything else.
|
| One reason is that if you try to talk about the political
| catastrophes, people try to shut you down.
|
| > could perhaps accidentally have stumbled upon a policy
| that could make sense
|
| 'but how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?'
|
| > I'm not saying the opposite or otherwise supporting
| Modi.
|
| So what do you say about Modi?
| ithkuil wrote:
| > So what do you say about Modi?
|
| Oh that's easier to answer; there is thread above. TL;DR
|
| The GP of my first comment said:
|
| "the best policies are that of the government in power"
|
| The parent answered:
|
| "Taking away Indians' freedoms, brutalizing
| minorities,..."
|
| I just said that it's a bit unfortunate that most of
| these discussions never really touch whether what GP said
| is true or false, i.e. whether the policies of the
| government are indeed best. Instead the answer points out
| how other policies are awful.
|
| Now, I personally agree that those things listed are
| awful and I'd never support such political party.
|
| But, logically, that is not an argument against what
| original GP said. I find it unfortunate that we are
| unable to talk about those things candidly.
| naruvimama wrote:
| Nationalist in the European context is clearly one
| language, one religion and one culture.
|
| In the India context, nationalism is a unifying force
| finding a commonality beyond the hundreds of diverse
| languages and cultures that India is made of.
|
| I do not see why that is a bad thing.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > we must be able to talk about policies and outcomes it
| their own right without tainting them with who has
| brought them
|
| I disagree. First, these are policies. Second, I don't
| care about the other policies unless human rights,
| including freedom and self-determination (democracy) are
| maintained.
| ithkuil wrote:
| This is exactly what I said in my comment (the part in
| parenthesis), but not phrased against the impersonal
| policies but against the people who happen to put forward
| awful things along with policies that would be otherwise
| good.
|
| I think you don't really disagree, because disagreeing
| would mean that once somebody does something against
| human rights, everything else they touch must be also bad
| by definition, thus depriving all future generations of
| the possibility of doing something good just because they
| accidentally mentioned it? When it's claimed that
| Mussolini made run trains on time (which it's very likely
| a myth, but it doesn't matter for this argument), does it
| mean that having trains that run on time is a bad idea
| that can no longer be pursued least we associate
| ourselves with fascism? That would clearly be silly.
| mynameismon wrote:
| By policies, I mean 1. GST (Goods and Services Tax) 2.
| Revamp of Farm and agricultural laws 3. Revamp of the
| Education policies in favour of a more progressive policy
| 4. Promise of reforms of Land policies and of that ilk.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| If we end democracy, it doesn't matter. Dictators with
| good policies are just dictators - and historically, many
| have used their supposed beneficence and wisdom to
| justify themselves. And of course, who is to disagree
| with their policies - you're not allowed to.
|
| And on top of that, looking around the world, there is no
| doubt what form of government correlates with good policy
| - power in the people's hands has by far the best record.
| And who can legitimately take it from us and impose their
| preferences on what the people want?
| random314 wrote:
| > 1. GST (Goods and Services Tax)
|
| Commonly cited as the reason for Indias economic decline
| along with demonetization.
|
| > 2. Revamp of Farm and agricultural laws
|
| There is no consensus that this is a good thing.
| Certainly not any good for farmers. Certainly very good
| for corporate farming, namely Ambani and Adani. Will the
| customers benefit? No idea!
|
| > 3. Revamp of the Education policies in favour of a more
| progressive policy
|
| ??? Academic independence has been compromised. A 2000
| crore pseudoscience ministry has been set up.
| Pseudoscience practitioners will now perform surgery.
| Indias top level research institutes are being granted
| generous funding for performing cow research. Texts
| praising Indian cows over Jersey cows are being
| distributed amongst school children, with claims of gold
| in Indian cows.
|
| > 4. Promise of reforms of Land policies and of that ilk.
|
| ??
| naruvimama wrote:
| Congress represents the dynastic aristocrats of a colonial
| vintage.
|
| The BJP was built by the likes of Advani & Vajpayee many
| who were refugees of the Islamic partition of India, these
| are people who had built their own life from scratch.
|
| Not to mention Modi the son of a tea seller, who rose to
| power on his own merit.
|
| The BJP wins because it knows the grassroots where they
| come from, the congress and the left are elitist completely
| out of touch with reality.
| [deleted]
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| Not surprised - they have been showing these tendencies for a
| while now.
| miohtama wrote:
| Here is the recent Economist article how Modi is turning
| India into one-party Hindu nationalist state
|
| https://www.economist.com/briefing/2020/11/28/narendra-
| modi-...
| puranjay wrote:
| The sad part is that no one seems to care. Rather, they will
| be cheered on by their supporters.
| naruvimama wrote:
| Rahul Gandhi and the congress party signed a secret MOU with
| the CCP even as Indian soldiers were getting killed by PLA
| infiltrators.
|
| Kishore's strategy for winning elections include stoking
| communal hatred and starting riots.
|
| I am happy that they are under surveillance.
| srean wrote:
| Any reliable/credible source ?
| naruvimama wrote:
| The congress party signing an MOU is public information,
| but the contents are secrets.
| srean wrote:
| In other words, there is nothing relevant that you can
| substantiate by citing a credible source. Got it.
| naruvimama wrote:
| The congress party itself put out pictures and press
| release of them signing an MOU.
|
| If you need more proof, you can try Pegasus perhaps?
| srean wrote:
| The key word you missed is 'relevant'. Signing MOU is not
| a crime and neither is it relevant to the discussion. You
| alleged Kishor of trying to fomenting riots, lets see
| some credible substantiation of that.
| naruvimama wrote:
| Yeah signing an MOU with China while we are at war with
| them.
|
| Even a child would know the congress can not be trusted.
|
| I see where you might be coming from, the far left
|
| So here is a gem of a discussion,
| https://youtu.be/matXpPAHao4
| srean wrote:
| I note that you still haven't substantiated your
| allegation about Kishor.
|
| Congress declared and fought a war with China when they
| had encroached, quite unlike Modi who has for the most
| part been trying hard to ignore and hide Chinese
| settlements well within Indian territory in Arunachal
| Pradesh. Had been denying the fact that Chinese forces
| has occupied Indian territory several kilometers inside
| Indian border. Oh forgot, yes Modi retaliated occupation
| of territorial land by banning some video apps and games.
| sinyug wrote:
| If the Radia tapes[1] didn't affect the Congress/UPA
| government, why would this affect Modi?
|
| > Sounds like complete abuse of power with no checks and
| balances.
|
| There are checks and balances. They are called elections.
|
| The Indian constitution grants the government of the day an
| extraordinary amount of power. But the government is eventually
| formed by elected members of parliament.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radia_tapes_controversy
| wolverine876 wrote:
| If government uses its powers to suppress the opposition and
| prevent criticism of itself, then elections are not a check.
|
| Elections also aren't a check for people who have already
| suffered from the oppression.
|
| Governments operate under the rule of law and respect for
| democracy and human rights. 'To protect those rights,
| governments are instituted among men.' They serve the people
| with power delegated to them by the people. They aren't
| elected as temporary gods or kings.
| sinyug wrote:
| > If government uses its powers to suppress the opposition
|
| In what way is the opposition being suppressed? Other than
| the Congress which is suffering from a self-inflicted,
| mortal wound, the smaller parties are doing quite well in
| their own states.
|
| > prevent criticism of itself
|
| This statement has no basis in reality. The Hinduphobic
| left and their friends in media have done nothing but abuse
| the Modi government for seven straight years with zero
| consequences.
|
| > people who have already suffered from the oppression
|
| Who is being oppressed? In what way?
|
| > Governments operate under the rule of law and respect for
| democracy and human rights.
|
| Sure. That explains the benevolent nature of the
| Chinese/Iranian/Pakistani governments. And also why the US
| government keeps overthrowing other democratically elected
| governments, interfering in foreign elections and invading
| foreign countries to spread democracy while carpet bombing
| the local population.
|
| Please.
|
| Governments are entities that exercise a monopoly over
| violence within a certain territory. The nature of the
| government depends on those in power and those who get them
| there.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > Governments are entities that exercise a monopoly over
| violence within a certain territory. The nature of the
| government depends on those in power and those who get
| them there.
|
| If you look at advanced democracies worldwide, which
| operate under the powers delegated to them, the rule of
| law and fundamentally exist to protect human rights,
| that's evidently not the case.
|
| The question is, why would you want to believe
| differently? Why not embrace the great news that
| democracy works and prospers? Yes, it's not perfect yet -
| we have work to do to create a more perfect union. But
| certainly work on a grand project isn't accomplished by
| destroying it and starting over.
| srean wrote:
| Journalists, professors (Kappan, Teltumbde) languishing
| in jail without trial on trumped up charges, and planted
| evidence indicates otherwise. A 84 year old Parkinson's
| patient (Stan Swamy) who couldn't feed himself water
| arrested on trumped up charges, held without trial, dying
| in jail indicates otherwise. Rampant doctoring and
| planting of evidence indicates otherwise. Lack of
| progress in investigations in killings of critics (Gauri
| Lankesh) indicates otherwise. Lack of progress in
| criminal proceedings against perpetrators of violence
| against JNU students caught on camera indicates
| otherwise.
|
| I could keep going on giving examples till the cows come
| home.
| sinyug wrote:
| > Journalists, professors (Kappan, Teltumbde) languishing
| in jail without trial on trumped up charges
|
| Can you please tell the HN audience whether Teltumbde was
| able to approach the Supreme Court of India for relief
| and what the SC told him? Or are you also casting
| aspersions on the Supreme Court?
|
| > A 84 year old Parkinson's patient (Stan Swamy) who
| couldn't feed himself water arrested on trumped up
| charges, held without trial, dying in jail indicates
| otherwise.
|
| He died in a hospital.[1]
|
| He was able to present his case before a court multiple
| times.
|
| > I could keep going on giving examples till the cows
| come home.
|
| A lie here, a half-truth there. I am sure you can find an
| infinite number of similar "examples."
|
| [1] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-
| states/fr-stan-...
| srean wrote:
| I can certainly add that the same Israeli company has
| been found planting evidence in the case that Teltumbde
| is being held in jail without trial for.
|
| https://citizenlab.ca/?s=koregaon
| srean wrote:
| The Supreme Court has been far from impartial (especially
| relevant, because one can see from this news story that
| calling Supreme court judges out for sexual harassments
| gets surveillance spyware installed on your devices). I
| am sure you know that Stan Swamy was denied bail although
| he posed no flight risk, was denied straw to drink water
| with because he could not hold tumblers without spilling
| all of the water and that he had been complaining about
| his health and that he was taken to hospital by the time
| his health had irreparably deteriorated, thanks to lack
| of attention to his medical complaints.
|
| If your defense is picking on my shorthand to describe
| dying while in legal custody of a jail where he was being
| held without trial, under ludicrous trumped up charges,
| denied of bail, then I don't have much to add.
| virtuabhi wrote:
| Why are two Cabinet Ministers (Ashwini Vaishnaw and Prahlad Patel
| from Modi govt.) are in this list?
| duxup wrote:
| Testing?
|
| Or someone was suspicious of them?
|
| History shows that surveillance, oppression, and the targets of
| paranoia rarely limited to outsiders. ... The folks in power
| always seem to turn on their own too.
| srean wrote:
| Possibly for the same reason that blackmailers mail themselves,
| a trick as old as the woods.
| random314 wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm
|
| Internally spied upon and executed on the basis of fake
| charges.
| meepmorp wrote:
| Internal politics? Some people have more enemies than others.
| Arun2009 wrote:
| It's very disturbing to me as an ordinary Indian citizen that a
| foreign private company was given the carte blanche to spy on
| prominent individuals in India. India's history is replete with
| incidents where seeking the help of foreign agents to subdue
| local opponents compromised India's security and Indians'
| liberty.
|
| Traitors don't necessarily have to set out to commit treason
| against their country - they can be just unsophisticated
| simpletons greedy for power. And they can commit treason and
| sabotage the nation in the name of patriotism.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| If it wasn't a foreign agent, would that stop Modi from doing
| the exact same thing to the people of India? From what I see (a
| limited amount) the problem is unrelated to a foreign agent
| being involved.
| boruto wrote:
| Hopefully courts take suo moto on this case and drag Gov
| through mud. I really cannot believe people who defend this
| sort of thing. One more reason why a country needs independent
| media.
| physicsyogi wrote:
| It wasn't a foreign agent being used for spying. It was
| software the government paid for.
| perfectstorm wrote:
| > Analysis of the more than 1,000 mostly Indian phone numbers
| selected for potential targeting by the NSO client that hacked
| Kishor strongly indicate intelligence agencies within the Indian
| government were behind the selection.
|
| this is disturbing but i'm not surprised. Modi will go to any
| extend to keep his power. People often claim BJP (ruling party)
| has a weak opposition but if it's so weak why do they even care
| about spying on the opposition leader? No matter who comes to the
| top, they are going to be spyed on by this government which is a
| shame.
| yann2 wrote:
| Can you imagine monitoring the jabberings of modern journos and
| politicians 24*7. I would probably jump out of a window on the
| first day.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Could you imagine reading Internet forums? Isn't yours and
| everyone's presence here - and much worse, in most other forums
| - an example of people doing exactly that for free?
| vijaybritto wrote:
| Although this is not surprising at all (because Modi is a mass
| murderer), what took everyone by surprise is the fact that the
| govt planted evidence in multiple activists' devices and arrested
| them under a draconian act called UAPA. So many political
| prisoners are currently in prison without any trial for years
| connectsnk wrote:
| The malware could have been planted by a foreign spying agency
| which won't be the first time such a thing has happened. The
| wording of the title makes you assume an adversary just because
| the title lists them first.
| srean wrote:
| The general principle to follow in these cases is to find out
| who benefits. You will be correct most of the time than not.
| naturalauction wrote:
| That foreign adversary would have had great timing then.
|
| > The selection of Indian numbers largely commenced around
| the time of Modi's 2017 trip to Israel, the first visit to
| the country by an Indian prime minister and a marker of the
| burgeoning relationship between the two states, including
| billions of dollars in deals between Delhi and Israeli
| defence industries.
|
| Modi and the then Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu,
| were pictured during the trip walking barefoot together on a
| beach. Days before, Indian targets had started being
| selected.
| virtuabhi wrote:
| > Modi and the then Israeli prime minister, Benjamin
| Netanyahu, were pictured during the trip walking barefoot
| together on a beach. Days before, Indian targets had
| started being selected.
|
| Wow! You are a genius! Do you want to apply for Director
| position at CIA?
| sss111 wrote:
| No need to get snarky. I recommend you read this:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| amartya916 wrote:
| In case some of the community members are not fully aware of
| the background of the comment about mass murder: Modi was the
| Chief Minister of Gujarat when there were religious riots in
| 2002 [1]. Of course, him being a Hindu nationalist it's pretty
| obvious that many Muslims were persecuted/killed. Since then
| he's tried to clean his image internationally while
| systematically taking the world's largest democracy's
| democratic values to the brink. The Bush administration had
| denied him a diplomatic visa in 2005 [2] for his role in the
| riots. Finally, the UAPA [3] act that was referred to the
| parent post is a way to imprison
| activitsts/journalists/political opponents etc. A strategy long
| developed and honed by all sorts of autocrats.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_riots
|
| [2]: https://2001-2009.state.gov/p/sca/rls/rm/2005/43701.htm
|
| [3]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_Activities_(Preventio...
| fourier1234 wrote:
| He's tried to clean his image internationally to some extent,
| but it's obvious in India -- and to anyone who looks into the
| "riots" -- that he was behind a lot of it. Committing
| genocide is a big reason for why he was supported and got
| elected.
| naruvimama wrote:
| The US backed Pakistan while it carried out the genocide of
| between 2.4-3 million hindus in Bangladesh in 1971.
|
| US administration's morality only exists to further it's
| political goals. Especially when it is not Europe.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Does anyone else feel like India's government is starting to
| spiral? Particularly their censorship of domestic media has
| concerned me, and hearing about these crazy surveillance
| campaigns is starting to give me "human rights violation" vibes.
| puranjay wrote:
| Its only going to get worse imo. India is an economic hole -
| much of it of our own doing - that is going to be very hard to
| get out of. Poorer governments tend to be desperate and
| authoritarian.
| portpecos wrote:
| Rahul Gandhi's grandmother also went on a banning spree of
| political opposition parties, after she declared emergency
| powers and went authoritarian.
|
| Given the legacy of similar behavior from Congress since the
| birth of the nation, I have little confidence that Congress
| and Rahul Gandhi will behave any different.
| rishav_sharan wrote:
| Why is Indira Gandhi relevant here? You ight as well go all
| the way and blame everything on Nehru which seems to be the
| ongoing Sanghi narrative.
|
| What Modi is doing is the problem here. It doesn't matter
| if other would-be-tyrants also did it. That doesn't makes
| it acceptable.
| puranjay wrote:
| I fail to see how Congress is relevant to this argument at
| all.
|
| I expected HN to not fall victim to whataboutism so quickly
| portpecos wrote:
| I don't consider what-about-ism a fallacy.
|
| In fact, it's an important way to identify hypocrisies
| and double standards.
| puranjay wrote:
| Again, how does what a woman who died before I or the
| majority of India was even born relevant to what BJP is
| doing NOW?
|
| The BJP has now been in power at the center for the
| majority of this century. Blaming everyone else is just
| evading responsibility
| srean wrote:
| Indira Gandhi was 3 to 4 generations ago. All those who
| are critical of Modi's method now are just as critical of
| Indira Gandhi's methods, they are the same barring the
| difference that IG had made it official.
|
| The point remains that IG is now an object of history,
| the people from her congress are mostly dead, if not all
| dead. On the other hand Modi and his methods are an
| objective reality now.
|
| I don't see how it follows that IG's grandson would adopt
| the methods adopted by her. In fact it is offensive to
| suggest that.
| srean wrote:
| It is not surprising that barring one appointment, the
| ministry of finance was/is held by people who had no
| background in workings of an economy. The one appointment
| that did come from a background in economics kept covering
| her failings by blaming behavior of millennials,
| international economic scenario and Covid, as if the las two
| affected India only.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > starting to give me "human rights violation" vibes
|
| That has been going on for awhile. Look up their treatment of
| Muslims and other non-Hindus, for example.
| ashleshbiradar wrote:
| Among other individuals is the name of the Election Commissioner
| of India, who was put on the list after he was critical of Modi's
| conduct in Election rallies. This is big, the Election Commission
| is an important constitutional body of India, this needs to have
| bigger consequences.
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