[HN Gopher] The new ProtonMail has passed its independent securi...
___________________________________________________________________
The new ProtonMail has passed its independent security audit
Author : beermonster
Score : 158 points
Date : 2021-07-18 07:32 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (protonmail.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (protonmail.com)
| ashtonkem wrote:
| I find it kind of surprising how many people are angry at the
| mobile experience here. Works just fine for me in iOS, what am I
| missing?
| Shacklz wrote:
| Same here, on Android. But I mostly receive email and almost
| never send out emails on the phone; so I can see that others
| might need features that are totally irrelevant for me.
| jpe-210 wrote:
| I think that for those of us without busy inboxes it's not that
| bad of an experience. The only thing I ask myself is if it's
| worth paying for a service such as this if I'm not as busy as
| other people seem to be.
| blunte wrote:
| I wanted to like PM and became a visionary subscriber years ago.
| But I left after painfully discovering that their web client
| (which was the only option at that time) was just not built for
| busy inboxes. Even today, many of the original pain points exist.
|
| The UI is still clunky, and paging through the inbox is really
| terrible. Now they will promote their bridge to allow you to use
| Outlook or whatever, but that's not a solution for some of us.
|
| I assume their need for revenue is what drives the features-
| before-improvements approach, but I know it is costing them some
| potential customers.
|
| Nowadays I only use PM for special occasions, such as needing a
| temporary private email conversation with someone (who also sets
| up a new temp PM account).
|
| I have found Tutanota to be much better in terms of usability. I
| can't speak for their security quality compared to PM, but
| honestly, unless you're only communicating with other local
| users, your emails are unencrypted at the other end. So the whole
| encryption topic is moot in many cases.
| blunte wrote:
| I would edit my parent post if I could. I have just logged into
| ProtonMail web app after a few months of not using it, and it
| seems they have made a big upgrade. I cannot say if it solves
| all of my previous complaints, but it certainly has improved.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| I use ProtonMail and ProtonVPN daily and the upgrade (which
| came about two months ago) is pretty significant. Namely one
| of my big complaints was that in the previous version your
| sessions weren't preserved and you were always having to log
| back in. The client still needs some performance enhancements
| but is otherwise a pretty significant improvement over the
| old UI.
|
| The packages are pretty good value IMO. For something like
| 100 euros per year you get secure email, two custom domains,
| and VPN. For someone who just needs exactly that for their
| personal websites and daily driver usage it's great.
| tomrod wrote:
| They have a mobile app that works great on Android. What am I
| missing?
| [deleted]
| tmccrary55 wrote:
| I wish I could use 2FA and _not_ have to enter a code every
| time I open the app.
|
| That and the total lack of useful search sent me back to big
| G.
| cptskippy wrote:
| > the total lack of useful search sent me back to big G.
|
| Just how bad is the search? Google's Gmail search is hot
| garbage.
|
| I have 1 starred email with the subject "benefits info"
| that contains some info I reference semi regularly. I can't
| search and find it, even if I copy the subject and paste it
| into search.
|
| My partner has similar issues, the search is mostly
| useless.
|
| * Clarification: it's not that my search results are
| polluted other emails, that specific email does not show up
| at all in the results.
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| Since the data is encrypted at rest, then search within
| Proton is basically nerfed. It does work, but it's slow
| as I imagine it's having to download each email to search
| within it locally. Not sure if there's a good solution
| for that problem. I still use Proton because I value my
| privacy and can live with slow searches.
| rovr138 wrote:
| Someone that wants to use their email on a computer.
| beermonster wrote:
| You can access PM on a computer from either a) web UI b)
| bridge
| rovr138 wrote:
| Did you read the original comment?
|
| The whole complaint above is about the web UI and
| mentions that the bridge isn't an option/solution for
| everyone.
| diogenesjunior wrote:
| >on Android
| traspler wrote:
| I don't know what exactly it is but the posts on their blog
| always make me frustrated and angry. The mix of content marketing
| and technical details is just infuriating. It just feels like
| they start with an immense heap of bullshit and then start
| weaving in some nuggets of information.
| xwdv wrote:
| It's built for SEO. Pretty standard.
| roenxi wrote:
| Reading through this and thinking about my own needs (currently
| upgrading family members away from Gmail) - it looks like Proton
| Mail hasn't solved the graceful upgrade path from insecure to
| secure email.
|
| Really what would be better called for here is a new protocol
| that can degrade gracefully, but it seems they've only given us a
| new app. Still it is nice to have people working on the problem.
| dane-pgp wrote:
| > a new protocol that can degrade gracefully
|
| Does Autocrypt meet that definition?
|
| https://autocrypt.org/
|
| Sadly, for the last 3 years, ProtonMail has resisted
| implementing it (unlike Posteo, for example), using FUD tactics
| to justify themselves:
|
| https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient/issues/120
| exp1orer wrote:
| Several other protonmail accounts have set up auto-forwarding to
| my protonmail inbox (whether accidentally or maliciously I don't
| know). PM has a feature that allows me to see who they are, but
| not remove the forwarding automatically. There does not seem to
| be any confirmation required to set up the forwarding, or any
| guard rails at all on the process.
|
| While this is unrelated to the core security of the application
| from a technical perspective, to me it seems shockingly sloppy
| and evidence of a severe lack of security mindset within the
| development organization.
|
| For comparison, gmail sends a confirmation code to the
| destination inbox that must be entered into the source email
| account.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Wish this audit had more details about the encryption system
| implemented and whether the rebuild meets their public encryption
| implementation specs (https://protonmail.com/security-details).
| This seems to be more about general web app OWASP type security
| audit.
| futevolei wrote:
| Can ProtonMail focus on getting mail right before adding calendar
| and vpn and whatever else they pump in their newsletter? Their
| mobile email is atrocious- hello threading email chains? I was
| hoping to use this as a gmail replacement but it's not even
| capable of replacing my spam yahoo account at this point. I
| support the cause but it seems like they are trying to do too
| much with too little.
| traspler wrote:
| The mobile app is so bad, nearly nothing works the way it
| should. Tap a Notification, you're lucky if the right mail
| opens, try to attach images on iOS? For while it sent HEIV
| images instead of jpegs, so normal people were out of luck;
| hope it doesn't crash? It does. The UI is also pretty ugly.
|
| But it's not only the app that is bad, the web client was quite
| functional for a while apart from the missing login
| persistence. Then came the new UI now it just kind of works.
| Try to move/tag many mails after each other? Now you also have
| to deal with clicking away success boxes as they start piling
| up and overlapping the very UI elements you are trying to
| reach. There are threads but for some reason they are way more
| cumbersome to use than GMail's. Everything is gigantic now as
| well. I haven't checked yet but during the beta I could just
| not find some settings anymore. Hope they got added before
| launch.
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| Android user here. I've not used the iOS version so cannot
| say what the differences are, but it works really well and is
| highly rated within the Play store. I imagine however that
| iOS users have higher standards, because let's be honest the
| majority of apps on the play store are garbage.
| olaf wrote:
| I agree, UI and usability design look amateurish to me. It is
| time for me to look for a better alternative, their speed of
| improvement in above mentioned areas is just one big
| disappointment.
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| In contrast, I used to find pm email to be fine. I left the
| service for fastmail because I wanted a calendar built in. I'm
| considering going back now
| tzs wrote:
| > Can ProtonMail focus on getting mail right before adding
| calendar and vpn and whatever else they pump in their
| newsletter?
|
| Once companies grow past a handful of employees they usually go
| from everyone being a generalist who can work on every part of
| all their product to having specialists who only can deal with
| some of what the company does.
|
| The various sites that report corporate information put the
| number of Proton employees in the 160-250 range. They are
| almost certainly well into the specialist phase. The people
| working on calendar and VPN and whatever would likely not be
| able to help with mobile email if they were shifted to that. If
| mobile email needs more work than those currently working on it
| can do, Proton needs to bring in more mobile and/or email
| specialists.
|
| It would only make sense then to stop calendar and VPN work if
| they do not have sufficient budget to bring in people to help
| with mobile email and need to lay off people from other
| projects to free up the money.
| 40four wrote:
| Wow so much hate for the mobile email client. I've been a happy
| user for a couple years now, I'm surprised there is so much
| distaste. Maybe I'm just not that picky? :)
|
| On this subject, I thought the recent upgrade of the email web
| client was nice. Maybe we can hope for something similar with
| mobile soon?
| yosito wrote:
| Proton Mail, if you're listening, the terrible mobile
| experience is why I'm switching providers. You promised a new
| mobile app, but it's been years and you've got nothing to show
| for it.
| Fnoord wrote:
| Its why I went away from ProtonVPN. No WireGuard support.
| Still not AFAIK.
| anpago wrote:
| The Android VPN app has just had wireguard added. It's not
| on the pc or iOS version I believe as of now
| acover wrote:
| Would using the default app with IMAP provide threading?
| beermonster wrote:
| Because IMAP requires a locally running daemon they call
| Bridge. So works for Desktop only not mobile
| stingraycharles wrote:
| Yeah I agree. I was trying to be a protonmail customer, but
| there was just too much friction.
|
| In addition to the subpar UI, I was trying to import my
| (admittedly large) gmail mailbox into Protonmail, and it just
| did not work. I let it run for days, had to restart it,
| repeated the process for weeks, and after about 4 weeks I just
| had to give up...
|
| It's a shame because I really appreciate the security aspects
| of it, _and_ the fact that they're a small company / underdog.
|
| But there's just too much friction.
| moeadham wrote:
| Yeah, I wish more effort was spent on search and spam.
|
| Very glad to see the security audit in any case.
| codesuki wrote:
| The missing threading on mobile and overall app experience was
| what made me not switch to protomail. It wasn't the actual
| missing feature but the fact that when I googled for it I found
| people requesting this feature several years ago (maybe 2016)
| up until now and staff doesn't give any answer. So I thought it
| might not be the most customer focused business.
| hhw3h wrote:
| Agree. I wish they would focus and go deeper on fewer
| applications. Get email working well, then calendar, etc.
| tyingq wrote:
| I'm curious about the stories I've read about ProtonMail having
| connections to the Swiss Government, CIA, etc. One of those
| stories (there are more): https://privacy-watchdog.io/truth-
| about-protonmail/
|
| Is this just conspiracy theories, or is there something to
| actually be concerned about?
| TingPing wrote:
| The linked site is very low on info high on outrageous claims.
| It is not the same as gmail and protons response to that paper
| are accurate imo. The fact is web clients are inherently
| insecure but you can run your own client entirely afaik
| (https://github.com/ProtonMail/proton-mail). I don't think
| anybody has evidence of wrong doing but the service is
| proprietary so...
| iluvcommunism wrote:
| My only complaint about PM is their spam handling. I continue to
| get spam, using the same exact body text, and it goes right to my
| inbox. Even after reporting. Their response is for me to continue
| reporting spam. This has been going on for months. No point in
| reporting spam if you will not even block it.
| dboreham wrote:
| Spam filtering with zero false positives is an unsolved
| problem. So having some false negatives would tell me that this
| is a high quality service. Google et al just send job offers,
| credit card payment due reminders and high value customer
| queries to spam.
| schipplock wrote:
| You are correct. However, iluvcommunism is criticizing the
| fact that ProtonMail isn't improving on filtering out real
| spam. Getting duplicate spam, again and again, is a waste of
| time. I would look at the spam folder once a day instead of
| deleting n-numbers of spam mails in the inbox.
|
| When I moved an old e-mail domain to ProtonMail, the number
| of spam e-mails hitting my inbox increased dramatically. So
| it's not even close to as good as its competitors in this
| regard.
|
| I moved to Tutanota. I now get even more spam :(. Google,
| Zoho and Yandex handle spam better (IMHO).
|
| Regarding ProtonMail, they will tell you something like this:
| Moving the messages to spam will automatically add the
| address to your blacklist.
|
| And as we all know, spam is always sent from the same
| address, right? The Blocklist is useless in this context.
| They just need to improve their spam filter. The rest is fine
| (IMHO).
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| I am a long time ProtonMail customer, but I admit to switching
| back to Gmail every few months, then a while later switching
| back. I mostly use Apple's Calendar.
|
| Because of the nature of their encryption, you can only search
| using email subject lines with their web clients. I run the
| Proton Bridge on my laptop just in case I need to search my
| email. Since most cellphones now have a lot of storage, I really
| wish the ProtonMail web client would optionally maintain a search
| index in local device storage (as an option). This would allow me
| to search my emails on any device. Or, they could make the Bridge
| available on iOS and Android - this would allow the use of any
| email clients on mobile and fix search.
| jowlo wrote:
| So, the audit found (among other minor things) a pretty standard
| XSS vulnerability (on page 7) and lots of usages of `.innerHTML`
| which has been considered an insecure coding practice for eons.
|
| While errors always happen and it is a good thing they found them
| during beta, I would definitely not say "the final report was
| overwhelmingly positive, and the audit uncovered no major issues
| or security vulnerabilities" (blog post).
|
| Quite the opposite: XSS is _the_ major attack vector of a web app
| for encrypted mail as it most probably enables access to
| plaintexts.
|
| Am I misunderstanding the report here?
|
| _disclaimer:_ i work for a competitor and we discovered less
| severe attack vectors in the past but even then sent out notices
| to _all users_ informing them about the timeframe of the
| vulnerability and such.
| throwaway192874 wrote:
| You forgot to read the sentence before that
|
| > _Prior to their release_ , the source code of both the new
| ProtonMail and Proton Calendar underwent an extensive security
| audit. We are happy to announce the final report was
| overwhelmingly positive, and the audit uncovered no major
| issues or security vulnerabilities.
|
| This report was done before the release of the new software,
| and important issues fixed. What they said was accurate given
| there was only one medium severity finding, and no highs or
| critical. For example, the site now returns a CSP preventing
| inline JS so this wouldn't work anymore even if they didn't fix
| the underlying XSS.
|
| The fact that exploiting this required the user to
| intentionally right click and show the image in a new tab
| (since it already renders it inline w/o xss) is why it was
| categorized that way since it's unlikely someone would do this
| by default.
|
| Most companies never disclose anything like this, so them
| disclosing there was a vulnerability found in a report they
| paid for and then published isn't really a strike against them
| and I'm fine with this language. It's a little marketing speak
| but I don't agree it's inaccurate for them to say so
| jowlo wrote:
| > You forgot to read the sentence before that
|
| Oh, yes, I did, sorry! I thought this was found in production
| code.
|
| I do support them publishing this and like I said: The code
| is audited to find exactly these kinds of errors, so I am not
| at all trying to shame them here. Their process worked, they
| found and fixed the vulnerabilities.
|
| OTOH, _not_ having a proper CSP preventing inline JS, the
| innerHTML usages and that XSS together does not go too well
| with the overall extremely positive sound of the headlines.
| All those three are in the 101 of secure web app development.
|
| Aaand, with the numbers of users they have, tons of them will
| right click and open in a new tab every hour. Its also easily
| exploitable: send an image with very small text. However,
| being in a different tab i am unsure how much info you would
| be able to steal, but sessions/tokens would be possible I
| guess.
| aborsy wrote:
| PM iOS App works fine for me and frankly it's nice.
|
| We need more people using end-to-end encrypted communication, for
| these technologies to be useful. They are not effective if only
| one side wants to encrypt.
|
| I think we should generally also support privacy products.
| dane-pgp wrote:
| One security aspect that I guess is out of scope for the audit is
| dealing with the threat model of a compromised server, which can
| insert a backdoor into the JavaScript code it delivers to the
| user.
|
| A possible mitigation for this would be to support loading the
| site as a Secure Bookmark.[0] There might be technical and UX
| issues with doing this, but it would be interesting to know if it
| was at least possible to make it available as an option.
|
| [0] https://coins.github.io/secure-bookmark/
| ryebit wrote:
| Deploying via IPFS might also work? Though it'd require having
| a trustworthy backend storing state ... or I suppose auditing
| to ensure backend can't inject anything malicious into client
| layer.
|
| From what I understand, some cryptocurrency DApps like
| Uniswap[0] are using this route.
|
| [0] https://github.com/Uniswap/uniswap-interface
| dane-pgp wrote:
| Deploying via IPFS might work indeed, but you're then either
| reliant on a gateway or have to run IPFS yourself locally. I
| know that Brave now supports IPFS, but for most people a more
| lightweight solution would be to install the Signed Pages
| extension for Chrome or Firefox.[0]
|
| I'm not sure if you actually need a trustworthy backend, or
| rather, if the frontend is encrypting its state before
| sending it to the backend, then the worst a malicious backend
| can do is delete or replay your data. By including timestamps
| and replicating your state to multiple independent backends,
| that risk can be largely mitigated.
|
| [0] https://github.com/tasn/webext-signed-pages
| warent wrote:
| Are there recorded cases of this ever happening?
| msh wrote:
| Hushmail was forced to do that:
| https://www.wired.com/2007/11/hushmail-to-war/
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Lavabit. Iirc they were asked to compromise thier own server
| as part of the snowden investigation. Instead they closed up
| shop. I lost a couple email addresses with the, but was glad
| to do so rather than explain to legal clients how thier data
| was on an fbi-controlled sever. Sometimes the only way to win
| is not to play.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/lavabit-founder-
| fought-9-mo...
| beermonster wrote:
| Didn't they famously print out their RSA private key on
| paper when forced to hand it over?
|
| Use PFS..
| forkerenok wrote:
| With your nickname the comment makes for an eerie read :)
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandworm_(hacker_group)
| beermonster wrote:
| I read it and thought of Dune.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| It is also one of the oldest concepts in scifi. I never
| met a hacker who wasnt also some sort of scifi fan. The
| people picking hacker groups names all read Hebert long
| ago. If you are old enough to have used lavabit, you
| probably know about sandworms.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-07-18 23:02 UTC)