[HN Gopher] 'Havana syndrome'-like mystery illness affects Vienn...
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'Havana syndrome'-like mystery illness affects Vienna US diplomats
Author : deanclatworthy
Score : 43 points
Date : 2021-07-17 18:16 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| Vienna is a historical hotspot for North Korean overseas
| operations, but that connection would be seemingly too obvious
| (Havana also has a DPRK embassy)...
| kome wrote:
| DPRK embassies are everywhere in Europe (germany, italy, spain,
| romania, sweden, etc), so what?
| raylad wrote:
| How about issuing every employee with a monitor that detects
| microwave radiation (since that's what they're saying they think
| it is)?
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| I can see it now, all US diplomats will have helmets on with
| antennae for detecting various wavelengths.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Made from rolls of tinfoil that contractors sell to embassies
| for $1200/25sqft roll
| readflaggedcomm wrote:
| >Cases of the condition have been reported elsewhere in the
| world, but US officials say the numbers in Vienna are greater
| than in any other city apart from Havana.
|
| Hadn't heard it was this wide-spread. What are the chances their
| own security systems are at fault? If not, then at this scale
| couldn't thermal imaging spot something?
| formerly_proven wrote:
| EM radiation in the microwave range is super-easy to monitor
| using bog-standard spectrum analyzers.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Thermal imaging wouldn't detect microwaves. They are at very
| different parts of the spectrum.
| betwixthewires wrote:
| My guess would be it is their own security. "Elsewhere in the
| world" also includes New York City.
| jlmorton wrote:
| When you have syndromes with a huge number of symptoms, including
| extremely common conditions, and the symptoms are largely
| untestable, relying on patient self-reporting, then you're going
| to catch a lot of people with these symptoms.
|
| This is the exact same thing with Long Covid, or Gulf War
| Syndrome.
|
| The most interesting thing about Havana Syndrome is that it
| apparently only affects English-speaking diplomats in American
| and Canadian embassies. This is probably because they're familiar
| with the syndrome from news reports.
| smnrchrds wrote:
| > _it apparently only affects English-speaking diplomats in
| American and Canadian embassies_
|
| Wasn't that the premise of a video game series? A biological
| weapon that can be tuned to a specific language, so it affects
| only the speakers of the language? I cannot remember the name.
| yellow_lead wrote:
| I don't think that's the point he was making. Moreso, that
| they "think" they have it, because they've heard of it. They
| may have real symptoms, but it could be false attribution or
| something else.
| BoiledCabbage wrote:
| > This is the exact same thing with Long Covid, or Gulf War
| Syndrome.
|
| Is your example trying to argue that Havana syndrome isn't
| physiological? Because that what I get from your tone, but the
| data you provide argues the opposite.
|
| Both times a collection of unrelated people reported
| consistently reported broad but similar/overlapping symptoms,
| and in both cases (Gulf War Syndrome, and Long Covid) they were
| later shown to be objectively legit even though they weren't
| taken as seriously at first.
|
| It seems like the same thing with this - in my book its a bit
| too coincidental at this point. Not to mention happening all
| around the same time period in a new location.
| SCAQTony wrote:
| Long Covid is demonstrably provable with scans, O2-saturation,
| blood pressure and other diagnostic checks.
| https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n853/rr-2
| krona wrote:
| From your BMJ reference:
|
| _The term long covid embraces a wide spectrum of organ
| involvement, with no clear evidence yet to help inform
| efficient diagnostic pathways or specific treatments or to
| indicate probable prognosis._
| CRConrad wrote:
| That still doesn't mean it lacks concrete objectively
| measurable symptoms.
| MarkMarine wrote:
| Gulf war syndrome is a real thing. So is Long Covid.
| colordrops wrote:
| This is a reasonable hypothesis but do you have any more
| evidence for this than the others?
| ineedasername wrote:
| They weren't offering a hypothesis for the cause of this,
| only noting the difficulty of making such determinations
| given the circumstances.
|
| Besides which, all _any of us_ have to go by are hypothesis.
| I think it 's pretty clear that speculation is the only thing
| available to discussions on the possible causes.
| colordrops wrote:
| Yes they are, they are clearly saying that it's
| psychosomatic.
| supergirl wrote:
| US embassies are basically CIA labs with all kinds of spying
| gadgets blasting EM waves. an intern probably wanted to hear
| better what the Russian diplomats across the street are saying
| and set the scanner to beast mode
| rolltopdesk wrote:
| Is it technically difficult to detect abnormal microwave energy
| in this kind of situation? I know you can get a microwave oven
| leak detector for about thirty dollars.
| amelius wrote:
| These detectors might very well be a scam targeted at people
| who believe any kind of radiation is bad for them.
| MrYellowP wrote:
| Because this story is related to Vienna and your post fits
| ...
|
| Let me tell you about the viennese hotdog stand owner who had
| three microwaves running at all time, to heat food quickly.
| Open. Behind his back.
|
| There was a glass in between the customers and him, shielded,
| but the pressure of the microwaves (heat, i guess?) could be
| felt through the opening, where he hands out the food.
|
| Of course it killed him eventually.
| user-the-name wrote:
| Pretty sure that is entirely an urban legend.
| ineedasername wrote:
| I don't know, I can easily believe that there are hot dog
| vendors in Vienna. Probably even one that has a silly
| name for English-speaking tourists like "Wurst Hotdogs!"
| amelius wrote:
| I think the microwave is designed so that the radiation
| resonates in a cavity. Once you open the cavity, the waves
| spread in all directions and the energy drops off very
| quickly.
| sgc wrote:
| They are contained by front door, which has a metal
| lattice to create a Faraday cage. Of course they drop off
| in open air, but leaking microwaves are not safe.
| [deleted]
| alpineidyll3 wrote:
| Why the hell aren't they just shielding the embassies against
| microwave radiation already? If I was a diplomat I would be
| walking around with a tinfoil hat and underwear, and I'd be quite
| furious about the lack of defense.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Every time I see the NAS study mentioned I feel compelled to
| mention it said that while a psychogenic cause was entirely
| possible, as they never performed psychiatric evaluations they
| could not conclude that was the cause.
|
| How they then conclude that a microwave attack is the most
| plausible is beyond me.
| rozab wrote:
| How could psychiatric evaluations conclude that anyway? There
| is no test for somatic symptom disorder, the diagnostic
| criteria are just that the symptoms are not adequately
| explained by physical causes. It often happens in people who
| are completely healthy mentally.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I had a theory about this illness.
|
| I dance a bit of salsa, and sometimes there were cuban DJs at the
| festivals I visited. They all always tended to do one thing with
| their sound setup: they overamplified the higher part of the
| audio spectrum, producing a hissing distortion of sound. It had
| an effect on me very similar on what is described about Havana
| embassy: headache and slight nausea.
|
| I tried talking to those DJs about it, and they told me that
| that's the way they like it. So I think that maybe you'd sickness
| is explained by cubans listening to their music _the way they
| like it_.
|
| But that was before Vienna. Maybe there was a salsa festival
| recently?
| onetimemanytime wrote:
| I have another theory: maybe they're using a certain tech to
| steal classified info remotely and we're seeing the side
| effects. I seriously doubt that Russians will hurt US
| "diplomats" on purpose....payback and all.
| mrtksn wrote:
| That's a bit of stretch, I think. I got my Tinnitus after my
| Cuba vacation too and I've seen some salsa practices when I was
| there however none of those had a loud music. I'm not into DJs
| and my only attempt to trying to get into a venue with a DJ
| ended with a frustration after giving up waiting in the lane to
| get into the Cave club in Trinidad.
|
| Also, later I found out that my tinnitus is due to my unhealthy
| sitting position when using a copmuter that apparently was not
| so good on my neck.
| christkv wrote:
| If this is an attack what's the point of it. It's not like it has
| any useful effects on anything either politically or militarily.
| akvadrako wrote:
| If there is an attack and not just hypochondriacs, I would
| consider it a form of terrorism. The main point is to make your
| enemies afraid; the physical damage done is a means to an end.
| dctoedt wrote:
| Not just terrorism - if it's by a state actor, it's an act of
| war, a casus belli.
| pengaru wrote:
| > It's not like it has any useful effects on anything either
| politically or militarily.
|
| You genuinely don't think creating paranoia for and generally
| antagonizing US diplomats is of any potential political or
| military value? If anything this creates additional stress, and
| demonstrates the US's total inability to defend itself from
| such things making it appear weak/incompetent/vulnerable to the
| entire world, to say the least.
|
| Surely you're joking or feigning ignorance here, right?
| 2bitencryption wrote:
| > what's the point of it
|
| the point is probably how every US diplomat around the globe
| probably goes to sleep every night thinking "I hope I wake up
| tomorrow with without permanent brain damage"
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| The news stories alone accomplish that, no need to attack
| anyone/anyone else.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but the new stories
| exist because of the attacks. If they didn't do the
| attack... there wouldn't be any news stories, would there?
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| No, the news stories exist because people have strange
| symptoms. Even with no attacks the stories could happen.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Ok... now think this through. Imagine there were no
| strange symptoms, and so no stories, and you wanted to
| create the stories... what would you do to cause the
| symptoms? The attacks, right?
|
| Or are you suggesting a foreign power that wanted to
| cause fear would just hang around and wait and hope for
| symptoms to appear out of nowhere?
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| You must not read the news much, stories don't stick around
| long. Something that happened last week might as well not
| exist.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| People don't need to watch Jaws every day to still be
| afraid of sharks.
| sigg3 wrote:
| Are there any documented cases of permanent brain damage from
| these "attacks"?
| iends wrote:
| Yes, that's literally what the article is about.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Causing fear. People probably don't want to be posted to
| embassies in Havana these days.
| tennis74 wrote:
| The only logical conclusion is that it is related to some secret
| anti spy device installed at US embassies around the world and
| not some outside disturbance covering Vienne to Havana?
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Or that it's a secret weapon used on US diplomats by [insert
| foreign power].
|
| Or that it's a result of radiation given off by some cryptogear
| that's classified.
|
| Or that it's a result of a global phenomenon and is only being
| detected in Vienna because they were alert to it after noticing
| it in Havana.
|
| Or that it's a contagious but slow acting disease spreading
| through the US diplomatic corps from some Typhoid Mary as they
| get redeployed.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Or sunspots. Always one of my favorited from the tech-problem
| excuse handbook.
|
| That, and directing annoying questions about Lotus Notes to
| the cafeteria staff so they could resolve issues with their
| lettuce nodes.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Or that it's related an an anti spy device surreptitiously left
| by foreign agents at each embassy. Anyone can make an
| appointment to visit one and leave a disguised device behind.
| Or perhaps more likely, use a directed weapon aimed towards the
| embassy from the outside.
|
| Or perhaps there was only an issue in Havana, and what we see
| now is psychosomatic. Or even that a few coincidental illnesses
| in Havana led to psychosomatic incidents as well.
|
| Really all there is to go by is different levels of speculation
| informed by very few facts known for certain. However it would
| be odd for the US to allow its own devices to make its own
| staff sick, sparking many conspiracy theories and accusations
| at other countries.
| amelius wrote:
| Another logical conclusion could be that we only hear of
| abnormal medical issues if they happen to diplomats. I mean, if
| this happened to a random Joe, would we hear about it?
| adenozine wrote:
| I was just thinking that. If we all read headlines for each
| time someone at the local Starbucks got sick, we'd avoid the
| coffee like the plague! There's a huge bias I think a lot of
| people don't account for, as well as the fact that quite a
| few diplomats are moving around all the time, they're ALL
| bound to get sick eventually. Rubbing shoulders with 100+
| countries every week, it's basically inevitable.
| mrtksn wrote:
| So it is happening to US diplomats on two unrelated locations,
| which indicates that the common element is the US. What if it's
| as a result of a US spy-craft instrument/substance side effect
| that potentially was not disclosed to the diplomats who suffer?
| hourislate wrote:
| What explains the Canadian cases? Is the US testing some weapon
| on them also?
|
| My hunch is this is more likely something the Russians are
| carrying out since both locations (Cuba/Vienna) are readily
| accessible to their agents.
| mrtksn wrote:
| > What explains the Canadian cases?
|
| Intelligence cooperation? I'm inclined to think that it would
| the the science and technology superpower that would be using
| devices that are out of reach for the rest. That superpower
| is not Cuba, not even Russia anymore. The US also has a
| history of being bold on extralegal experimentations with
| substances and devices.
| addicted wrote:
| Or it's a 3rd party targeting the US?
|
| The common party being the US doesn't mean it was caused by the
| US.
| simonblack wrote:
| Exactly. My take is that these reports are of work-place
| injuries. Something that the Government employees are doing, or
| have had done to them, is causing the problems.
|
| Examples from the past: Gulf Syndrome in the 1990s caused by
| anti-gas warfare antidotes, and the Agent Orange cancers and
| other birth-deformities inflicted on VietNam vets.
| guerrilla wrote:
| What if they're jusg English speakers who saw the news and got
| food poisning (or who knows what)... Why is this such fertile
| ground for conspiracy theories? Is there some kind of
| assumption diplomats and spies never get sick with unidentied
| diseases like the rest of us?
| mrtksn wrote:
| Conspiracy theories are a lot fun when not affecting public
| behaviour badly(That's why we have huge number of literature
| and films around conspiracies). Therefore it's intriguing to
| speculate on a mystery.
|
| Oh and these days everyone is an English speaker, at least
| most diplomats are. Whatever the US ones read, the Spanish,
| the French, the Italians, the Bulgarians, the Russians, the
| Brazilians read it too.
| bjourne wrote:
| > The syndrome is unexplained, but US scientists say it is most
| probably caused by directed microwave radiation.
|
| A lot of scientists, American and non-American alike, doubted the
| microwave weapon theory.
|
| > The US accused Cuba of carrying out "sonic attacks", which it
| strongly denied, and the incident led to increased tension
| between the two nations.
|
| The sound of the "sonic attacks" turned out to be the sound of
| indigenous Cuban crickets. Oops! https://www.the-
| scientist.com/news-opinion/recording-of-soni...
|
| You can listen to the sound here:
| https://apnews.com/article/health-north-america-ap-top-news-...
|
| > A 2019 US academic study found "brain abnormalities" in the
| diplomats who had fallen ill, but Cuba dismissed the report.
|
| As did a lot of academics:
|
| "The latest brain scans may provide fresh evidence of some
| injury, but the study was not without critics and some
| researchers have questioned whether there was any kind of attack
| at all.
|
| "Finding evidence of brain change doesn't provide evidence of
| brain injury or damage," said Dr. Jon Stone, a professor of
| neurology at the Centre for Clinical Brain Sciences at the
| University of Edinburgh, who was not involved in the study.
|
| Dr. Sergio Della Sala, a professor of human cognitive
| neuroscience also at the University of Edinburgh, in an email
| called the study "half baked."
|
| He noted that 12 of the affected workers who had a history of
| concussion prior to going to Cuba were included in the analyzes.
| "In comparison, none of the controls declared previous brain
| injury. This in itself could cause statistical group
| differences," Della Sala said."
|
| https://nationalpost.com/news/world/scans-show-changes-to-br...
|
| In his commentary Della Sala writes: "The JAMA article represents
| a case of poor neuropsychology; clinically inappropriate and
| methodologically improper."
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00109...
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