[HN Gopher] Jet Li rejected The Matrix as he didn't want his kun...
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Jet Li rejected The Matrix as he didn't want his kung fu moves
recorded (2018)
Author : danso
Score : 165 points
Date : 2021-07-16 01:06 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.scmp.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.scmp.com)
| RedComet wrote:
| How would have been any different than any other movie he's been
| in? Are they not digitally recorded indefinitely as well?
| pan69 wrote:
| I think they are talking about digitally recording as in motion
| capture. That probably doesn't happen for a lot of movies he's
| in.
| effingwewt wrote:
| This is mentioned in the article. They wanted essentially to
| own the IP to every martial arts move Li would have recorded
| for them, allowing them to essentially have him or even just
| his moves with someone else's face superimposed, so what would
| they need the actors for at that point?
|
| And of you are just going to digitally do the fight scenes then
| why not just use moves already recorded without any IP?
|
| Seems to me like he was smart to Nope TF out.
| akudha wrote:
| Good on him.
|
| That said, they will find some other young but starving
| martial artist and record all his moves. He may not be as
| famous as Li, but he will be cheaper and easier to
| manipulate.
|
| I wonder how far are we from making movies completely with
| software, with no human actors at all
| booleandilemma wrote:
| I wonder what would-be actors are going to _do_ at that
| point? Are they going to have to get normal jobs or what?
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| They'll still use them for faces and maybe voices, do you
| need someone in the parade around.
|
| It'll be more like K-pop, with mall appearances.
| dane-pgp wrote:
| Perhaps there's an interesting ML research project there.
| Get a voice actor to record a bunch of lines, with facial
| capture, and then see if the AI can produce the correct
| facial expressions for a line it hasn't heard before.
|
| Then, take it a step further by trying to produce the
| voiced line from a sufficiently detailed narration and
| transcript. Obviously GPT-3 is close to being able to
| produce narrated stories, so that would give you a
| pipeline that turns a vague story idea into animated
| speaking faces.
|
| Generating the movements of bodies and props might be
| harder, but I'm guessing that in some CGI movies for kids
| they don't have any human characters so they don't need
| to capture any actor's body movements or have any
| physical props or a stage at all.
| RedComet wrote:
| It actually is not mentioned in the article, how this movie
| would be different with respect to other movies he was in at
| the time.
| effingwewt wrote:
| Giving up the IP in perpetuity is what would be different.
|
| >He added, "By the end of the recording, the right to these
| moves would go to them."
|
| Li said back then, he was already worried that future
| technology would allow US filmmakers to digitally reproduce
| his moving body and superimpose the face of any actor onto
| it.
|
| "I was thinking: I've been training my entire life. And we
| martial artists could only grow older. Yet they could own
| [my moves] as an intellectual property forever. So I said I
| couldn't do that," Li said.
| dangson wrote:
| "I realized the Americans wanted me to film for three
| months but be with the crew for nine. And for six months,
| they wanted to record and copy all my moves into a digital
| library."
|
| The difference is they wanted to motion capture his moves
| in addition to the regular filing process.
| RedComet wrote:
| Again, clearly I'm not tapped in to Hollywood like some
| here seem to be, but it wasn't clear to me how what he
| says there, "they wanted to record and copy all my moves
| into a digital library", was any different than what
| happened when he was in any other movie, say The One.
| Motion capture wasn't mentioned in the article at all,
| nor is it clear that other martial arts movies
| didn't/don't use it.
| tremon wrote:
| Motion Capture is about posture and body movement,
| captured as a 3d wireframe model. See here:
| https://study.com/academy/lesson/computer-animation-
| definiti...
|
| That's completely different from capturing the image of
| an actor on a 2d video frame.
| RedComet wrote:
| Thanks, but I understand what motion capture is.
|
| Again, motion capture wasn't mentioned in the article,
| nor was it clear to me that even if that assumption is
| made that it isn't something commonly done in martial
| arts movies or limited to the Matrix movies.
| beagle3 wrote:
| It's now basically done in every CGI enhanced movie -
| e.g. all Avenger movies, Maleficient and all modern
| Disney movies.
|
| It wasn't unheard of, but wasn't yet common in the early
| 2000s when the Marrix sequels were made.
|
| Also, Matrix has lots of Bullet Time rigs, which aren't
| motion capture rigs, but we're clearly usable even back
| then for some "transplanting" of recordings to another
| scene, much more so than regular shots.
|
| Jet Li was extrapolating into the future, but not far
| into the future. It was already common and happening 10
| years later.
| tremon wrote:
| Maybe not common, but The Fellowship Of The Ring (full
| motion capture and CGI for Gollum) was released in 2001,
| while The Matrix Reloaded was released in 2003.
|
| I don't think Jet Li needed to extrapolate into the
| future at all.
| RedComet wrote:
| Jet Li did motion capture for a video game within a year
| of the second Matrix release, so it wasn't the motion
| capture he was opposed to. Presumably it was Warner Bros'
| contract for him.
| RedComet wrote:
| After some looking around, it is suggested (but never started
| outright) that the concerns were specifically related to the
| terms that Warner Bros layed out, NOT to motion capture in
| general. In fact, he did motion capture for a video game that
| came out the next year. The game was developed by a Sony studio
| based out of California.
| lbj wrote:
| In the words of Norm McDonald: What a genius, he'll be sorely
| missed
| flybrand wrote:
| This sounds a little bit like the people who didn't fight in the
| UFC because they wanted to keep their art 'secret'.
| Delk wrote:
| I don't think it sounds like that at all, from what the article
| says. Rather it sounds like he didn't want the skills he had
| spent years practising and learning to be potentially subject
| to cheap replication by technology. That would turn something
| that used to be a skill learned through effort into a
| commodity, at least as far as film goes.
|
| I can easily see how that would seem like a bad deal for the
| actor. It could also feel like it devalues the skills
| themselves.
|
| That's orthogonal to the applicability of those skills in the
| UFC or whatever.
| notoriousjpg wrote:
| Makes no sense. Jet Li has legitimate kung fu pedigree and has
| won multiple martial arts tournaments.
| sadfasf122 wrote:
| wat
| naasking wrote:
| It's interesting, because I always thought Neo's fight scene with
| Agent Smith in the underground had some parallels/callbacks to
| Jet Li's Fist of Legend.
| 5cott0 wrote:
| the matrix and fist of legend were both choreographed by the
| legendary Yuen Wo Ping. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuen_Woo-
| ping
| [deleted]
| devfromanatolia wrote:
| 'Li said back then, he was already worried that future technology
| would allow US filmmakers to digitally reproduce his moving body
| and superimpose the face of any actor onto it.
|
| "I was thinking: I've been training my entire life. And we
| martial artists could only grow older. Yet they could own [my
| moves] as an intellectual property forever. So I said I couldn't
| do that," Li said.'
|
| It is fascinating to see that at some point of any expertise, you
| start to respect the art itself more than any hard work you
| invest in it.
| agumonkey wrote:
| And we're hitting a point where tech is making this irrelevant.
| I'm somehow scared about the implications.. it kills a lot of
| deep human emotions (desire, ambition, skill, transmission).
|
| Some people are already feeling this in music slightly.
| sigg3 wrote:
| > it kills a lot of deep human emotions (desire, ambition,
| skill, transmission).
|
| Of course it doesn't. It just changes parts of what we care
| about.
|
| Auto tune didn't kill music, it just made evident what we
| already knew: a live performance might be the more authentic
| experience of a particular artist. Other, new breed artists,
| might never even perform live.
|
| AI playing chess did not make chess players obsolete. It just
| shone a new light on the game from a different angle.
|
| I can see AI becoming talking heads type of hosts, but they
| will still need human insights and skills (or "guidance") to
| function appropriately. This is what we'll use to assess the
| performance, then.
| ramblerman wrote:
| Making what irrelevant?
|
| The 'implications' for 'human emotions' is vague enough to be
| analogous to simply 'fear of change'.
|
| Focusing on the process and not the outcome has been common
| advice since the Tao Te Ching. It's not easy, but that's not
| due to tech.
| agumonkey wrote:
| > Making what irrelevant?
|
| why try to make your body into a super-efficient machine if
| robots are out of your league, can one exist if he's doomed
| to be beaten ? maybe it will cause a healthy shift in focus
| and appreciation about what we try to do (people may still
| try to reach their full potential even if it will stop
| being best absolute performance, but only best 'human'
| performance').
| pmontra wrote:
| I second this but it's not even about being the best of
| humans. At least 90% of amateur cyclists are out of my
| league and yet I insist to go cycling, because I like it.
| usrusr wrote:
| Cycling is a very interesting example. Cycling was crazy
| huge for a while when it was the fastest form of
| individual travel (only trains were faster) and many
| people moved on when the internal combustion engine
| became practical. But the subset of the appeal that
| remained despite engines has been rather stable ever
| since.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| In some places it's faster than a car, due to 1) the
| sheer volume of cars meaning that any driver will be
| stuck in traffic and 2) it being way easier to find
| parking for a bicycle than a car. I live in a city where
| this is often true.
|
| That said, maybe the appeal that's remained since has
| been relatively stable overall, but locally it varies a
| lot depending on the cycling infrastructure that's
| available. More people ride when they feel safe doing so.
| Pokepokalypse wrote:
| When I used to ride my bike to work, I literally turned a
| 45-minute drive into a 10-minute ride. Unfortunately, the
| weather in Illinois sucks so I couldn't do it year-round.
| rwnspace wrote:
| I think the lack of a stable is part of the appeal, most
| people don't have anywhere to put a horse.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| Many apartment dwellers find even storing a bicycle to be
| at best a hassle, at worst almost impossible.
| krisoft wrote:
| > why try to make your body into a super-efficient
| machine if robots are out of your league, can one exist
| if he's doomed to be beaten ?
|
| Any couch potato can shoot even the best martial art
| master dead with widely available cheap tools and a few
| weeks worth of training. And this is not even a new
| phenomenay. All practicioners alive today were born into
| this. Doesn't seem to have stopped them from practicing.
| wiz21c wrote:
| Practicing martial arts leads to much more than being
| able to perform cool moves. I practice tai chi and I can
| tell you that my teacher do things you can hardly believe
| without moving his body much. Using a combination of
| breathing, accurate movements, he can push you meters
| away. Really cool. Takes at least dozens of years of
| intensive training to reach that level. He compares that
| to training playing piano for international level
| competitions (such as Concours Reine Elizabeth).
| visarga wrote:
| > Any couch potato can shoot even the best martial art
| master dead with widely available cheap tools
|
| Gun, it's zero effort maximum damage
| joshuaissac wrote:
| Computers beat humans at chess, but players are still
| trying to become good at chess.
|
| Cars can travel faster than humans and horses, yet we
| still have running competitions and horse races.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| > Cars can travel faster than humans and horses, yet we
| still have running competitions and horse races.
|
| I don't know why we still have (or broadcast) running
| competitions.
| warglebargle wrote:
| why run when you can drive... you'll never outrun a car
| genewitch wrote:
| unless you run into a forest, a beach, a building,
| between buildings, jump down from a bridge onto an
| embankment...
| httpsterio wrote:
| how do toi build a robot that executes Kung fu if you
| have no data points about how the body should move and
| behave? You'd still need to record an actual human
| performing them if you want to build a robot that could
| emulate that.
| agumonkey wrote:
| That's not a great joy and is what jet mi complained
| about, you're used to be beaten and replaced. It's a poor
| prognosis.
| gchamonlive wrote:
| It might be true for anyone measuring success by how much
| money they make.
|
| But I don't think people get into any form of art, and I
| count programming as a form of art, expecting huge sums of
| money. We all do it for the sake of doing it, because it
| _feels_ good to do it, to learn, to overcome, to achieve.
|
| Just think about the fact we are never indeed satisfied. I,
| for instance, am much more skilled as a programmer than I was
| 5 years ago. In a sense I _made_ it, I have a job that pays
| well and I can do my work without much issue. Programming
| feels natural. However I am nowhere near being satisfied. I
| want to learn more, see and try new things. Explore different
| paradigms, languages and techniques. But not because it could
| render me a better paycheck, but because it feels amazing to
| learn and solve new problems.
| tw04 wrote:
| > But I don't think people get into any form of art, and I
| count programming as a form of art, expecting huge sums of
| money. We all do it for the sake of doing it, because it
| feels good to do it, to learn, to overcome, to achieve.
|
| No offense: but spoken like someone who has made enough
| money from something they enjoy to imply they'd do it
| without money. If you were working 12 hours a day in
| multiple minimum wage jobs I think you'd find your desire
| to program in your spare time quickly vanishing.
| gchamonlive wrote:
| This is very relevant. I believe we have to evolve as
| society and start talking about universal minimum income
| before we can move to talk about true dedication to art.
|
| If I had to grind away for hours maybe I wouldn't have
| the energy to evolve in creative areas. This speaks more
| against big capital and normalized poverty than my
| comment though.
|
| Edit: I wanted to go and say that I am aware of my
| privileges. I had time in my childhood to study, did
| minimal work with my parents, went to a military school
| and then, with the better education, I got to go to
| college, which in Brazil is free if you pass the tests. I
| have some merit in this, but mostly it was due to
| circumstance. I have to believe, however, that true art
| transcends all these social barriers.
| sennight wrote:
| > No offense: but spoken like someone who has made enough
| money from something they enjoy to imply they'd do it
| without money.
|
| You'd have a point if he said he loved working minimum
| wage jobs that weren't programming, but he didn't - so
| you don't.
| Kranar wrote:
| I respect that you didn't get into programming for money,
| but many of us do, including myself. Programming for me was
| a way to escape growing up in poverty, it was a way to gain
| financial independence and start a business of my own in an
| area that has almost no barriers to entry. I started an HFT
| firm and in order to compete I have to hire some of the
| most technically sophisticated people I can find. I am
| fairly confident that many of them are highly motivated by
| money just as I am and that being able to put to use their
| skill to provide for themselves an incredibly high standard
| of living motivates them a lot more than if their skill had
| little to no means of providing them with a great paycheck.
|
| Certainly there are interesting aspects to programming, but
| there are interesting aspects to a variety of different
| subjects and I don't know that programming is intrinsically
| more fascinating than music, or psychology, or history.
| What makes programming stand out at this particular moment
| is the massive amount of economic potential it has.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I think what makes programming stand out and have
| economic potential is how much of an amplifying effect it
| can have on all the other fields you listed.
| gchamonlive wrote:
| I wanted to use programming as an example because it is
| what I am familiar with. I am not trying to say that if
| you are in for the money you will have a bad time, that
| money is evil and all of that. What I am trying to
| illustrate is that monetary gain in itself is not enough
| to sustain any sort of artistic expression, and this is
| why pure artificial emulation of the activity is not
| enough to kill it, in my opinion.
|
| This is not to say that art has no value in escaping
| reality, poverty being one facet of reality. In a sense,
| art is the only valid escape from reality, the only form
| of expression that can truly shape and transform what we
| know.
| giantg2 wrote:
| For whatever reason other than money we got into
| programming, it's likely not the reason we are still in
| the field. Jobs suck the joy out of it. The money hasn't
| been very good for me either.
| sombremesa wrote:
| Some people do get into programming for the money, but you
| can spot them a mile away.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| This seems to be true for any endeavor worth putting time
| into. I like that programming has a big built-in filter; if
| you don't get enjoyment from solving hard problems, the
| frustration and technical difficulty of it will force you
| out pretty quickly. So most of the people that have been
| doing it for a few years really love it and are always
| looking to improve their craft.
| fighterpilot wrote:
| That's the reason the Go champion Lee Sedol gave for quitting
| agumonkey wrote:
| skynet won't even need a war, it will defeat our mindpower
| beforehand.
| drclau wrote:
| Unless... we were already defeated and live in a
| simulation. There was a movie about it not so long ago...
| :)
| laurent92 wrote:
| My employees weren't born when Matrix was in theaters...
| goodpoint wrote:
| skynet never needed a war. Why wouldn't a superhuman AI
| be capable of outsmarting and manipulating humans?
| plebianRube wrote:
| Not with a bang, but with a whimper, huh?
|
| Rage against the dying of the light, my friend.
| Pokepokalypse wrote:
| As it turns out; he lacked imagination. They can digitally
| create new moves that are even physically impossible; for say -
| superhero movies, and utterly surpass anything from traditional
| martial arts, even in the mythology.
| ur-whale wrote:
| Just be patient, another decade and the tech will be at a point
| where his moves can be reverse-engineered back to 3D directly
| from his films.
| iurysza wrote:
| We're already there.
| luma wrote:
| Pose Estimation from a 2D source is one of the default
| examples provided by TensorFlow: https://www.tensorflow.org/l
| ite/examples/pose_estimation/ove...
|
| Not only are we already there, it's now a trivial exercise
| used to instruct new users on the technology.
| mlyle wrote:
| The 6th grade robotic team I coach built from that example
| this year.
|
| Note that this just comes up with coordinates in the 2D
| image for body parts. And that there's a lot of error and
| noise, so it's a long way from those list of points to a 3D
| kinematics model. But a tracking filter and linear algebra
| would get you a fair bit of the way there.
| ur-whale wrote:
| > Not only are we already there
|
| We're not.
|
| There are basic experiment that demonstrate it's feasible,
| but there isn't such a system in production today.
|
| That being said, you are probably correct in that it's
| likely around the corner and my estimate was overly
| generous.
| regularfry wrote:
| I'm not sure I'd count that as "respecting the art" more than
| "ensuring I have continued employment".
| enraged_camel wrote:
| Why would Jet Li worry about something like "continued
| employment", when he is already worth $250 million?
| runawaybottle wrote:
| Because he might be one of those people where life didn't
| hand him shit. In other words, he fought against
| competition at every step of the game, so he seriously
| considers the nature of competition and the implications.
|
| It's like a rich person that grew up poor, they are
| constantly saving money. Of course they don't really have
| to at this point, but that was their experience. All Jet Li
| might know is competition (just off the top of my head, he
| is under the shadow of Bruce Lee, similar to Jackie Chan,
| and the whole Hong Kong scene is second to America).
|
| He respects his experience.
| frutiger wrote:
| > It's like a rich person that grew up poor, they are
| constantly saving money. Of course they don't really have
| to at this point, but that was their experience.
|
| Is the implication that people don't learn new things
| from new situations/environments and are forever stuck
| modeling the world the way they did when they were young
| teenagers/adults?
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| People certainly learn new things, but habits are a real
| thing. It's a natural tendency to keep doing what you are
| already doing, sometimes even if there are terrible
| consequences. See cigarette addicts for an example.
| frutiger wrote:
| > but habits are a real thing
|
| I wouldn't disagree, but I would question how widely
| applicable this is across cultures and socio-economic
| strata.
|
| In particular it would be interesting to compare the
| commonly accepted folk wisdom (e.g. "you can't teach an
| old dog new tricks") with a more objective analysis (if
| such a thing exists).
| runawaybottle wrote:
| Depends on how strong the systemic models were from the
| past. Thorough experience dealing with, say, people and
| how they interact competitively, will have a outsized
| reverberation later in life. You never ever want to be
| wrong about people.
|
| A soda drinking habit you can't kick? You'll mostly kick
| it once you get serious. The other stuff is probably
| going to take life changing events to alter.
| chris11 wrote:
| There are a ton of stories about incredibly successful
| people in the entertainment industry who end up bankrupt.
| Sure, that comes along with stories of wasting money. But
| it seems like the ones who make the most money are both
| lucky and really care about IP. I don't think Jet Li should
| ignore concerns about IP just because he's rich.
| 0des wrote:
| The day will come where movie actors and celebs become CGI
| intellectual property, without unions, dressing rooms,
| personal problems off-set, etc. He's right to have this
| concern, it's happening now.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| I don't see how that is a problem. If a computer can do an
| equal or better job then it makes little sense to keep such
| a heap of actors around. "real" actors in movies should
| then just become a curiosity just like still see horse
| carriages around as curiosity.
| rambojohnson wrote:
| horse carriages are seldom the protagonist of any movie,
| you realize...
| rowanG077 wrote:
| I don't understand what you are getting at. If you mean
| horse carriages are not people. You are right. But the
| "drivers" of horse carriages were.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| It the computer can do a better job, but can only do that
| by exploiting your work as training data, then it's not
| the same thing.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Why? The actors were paid for that training data.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| I would negotiate a different contract, depending on how
| my work would be used. Being paid is only half the story.
| Like software licenses: you can use this for free if you
| release your own code as GPL, but we'll come to a
| different agreement if you want to use it differently.
| Different terms for different use cases.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| I agree. But afaik most contracts in the acting industry
| make the footage of the actor completely owned by the
| employer.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised to see that change at some point.
| There was no reason to exclude impossible uses in the
| contracts, but as those uses become possible, people will
| probably want to have provisions that they share in the
| fruits of their own labor.
|
| Since a lot of these new uses seem to be 'fair use,' it
| might require changes to IP law.
| bseidensticker wrote:
| It's a problem if you are an actor.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Then they have to find something else to do. Just like
| the myriad of other jobs that are redundant because of
| innovation.
| laurent92 wrote:
| You need physical actors because you need someone relatable
| for the audience. Despite experiments like Tamagoshi,
| showing that computers can provide occupation of mind, I
| believe love can still only be provided by humans, no
| matter how faulty they are.
| coolspot wrote:
| Pixar doesn't show physical actors.
| pixel_fcker wrote:
| Whether they show their faces or not is by the by. The
| parts are played by actors (and animators).
| slumdev wrote:
| Recreating Wushu using low-detail-ragdoll CGI is an offense
| against Wushu.
|
| I think "respecting the art" is a fine way to describe his
| decision.
| hippari wrote:
| This is the technological dystopian that the Matrix was
| depicting. What an irony.
| donio wrote:
| The movie depicted an entirely different technological
| dystopia. Intellectual property was the least of their
| worries.
| dane-pgp wrote:
| "Intellectual property" means corporations owning the
| products of human minds, often to the detriment of the
| humans themselves. That's actually a perfect analogy for
| the plot of The Matrix.
| mercacona wrote:
| Neo learns martial arts in seconds from digitalized
| records. Not discussing intellectual property, but
| introducing a scenario that justifies Li's worries.
|
| I bet that they told him: you're a computer freak on the
| movie, but once you left the Matrix you became a martial
| artist by... and then Li though: WOW! An all my training??
| donio wrote:
| For all we know he is learning public domain material
| that is freely available to anyone.
|
| In the first movie we see very little of how real world
| society works but in the sequels other than the threat of
| the Machines things don't look particularly dystopian. In
| reality we'd probably end up with something much more
| oppressive under those circumstances.
| mercacona wrote:
| Jet Li isn't in the movie, I'm not discussing Matrix
| Universe. Just guessing how Li's reaction might sprout
| from the movie plot.
|
| But, even though, can't see how we can relate Neo's
| learning to public domain material. Recordings of public
| activities it's not necessarily public domain stuff.
| 5cott0 wrote:
| Li also turned down the role of Li Mu Bai in Crouching Tiger
| Hidden Dragon which is arguably more of a loss to cinema but that
| was to support his wife during pregnancy.
| Razengan wrote:
| Man, loved that movie, and the nostalgia of the era that its
| memory invokes. :)
|
| Shame the sequel kills him offscreen.
| imbnwa wrote:
| TBF Chow Yun-Fat is 10x the actor that Jet Li is (and Li, 10x
| the martial artist especially alongside Michelle Yeoh) and that
| role required extreme subtlety to depict his unavowed,
| unrequited love for Yu Shu-Lien which is a big part of the
| movie.
|
| If I'm Ang Lee I'm OK taking the acting over the athletic
| prowess.
| baby wrote:
| Yeah I can't imagine Jet Li in that role, he's not the best
| actor.
| amelius wrote:
| At least he was asked to opt in.
|
| With Co-pilot, programmers don't even have a way to opt out.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| > With Co-pilot, programmers don't even have a way to opt out.
|
| I find not using GitHub lets me opt out. Am I wrong?
| phaemon wrote:
| I'm afraid you are. If your project is open source, it's
| quite likely someone will put a copy up on GitHub while
| they're working on it.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| I could include an anti-GitHub clause in my open source
| project if I really wanted. But at any rate, if my project
| is open source, then haven't I said that using it a ML
| corpus is fine?
| lordnacho wrote:
| Isn't this going to happen anyway? Someone will train a ML
| model with martial arts movies to generate new sequences, just
| like they do with all sorts of other media.
|
| It's fair use to train it on existing movies, isn't it?
| amelius wrote:
| > It's fair use to train it on existing movies, isn't it?
|
| I don't think so, if the intent is to build a system that
| _competes_ with the original actors.
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.md/wVHwK
| psychlops wrote:
| He could have simply done his non-super-secret moves for the
| movie. You know....acting.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Imagine they if they told Keanu Reeves to records all the words
| of the dictionary and all his facial expressions and body
| postures and keep it as IP forever.
| 0j wrote:
| Reminds me of this masterpiece: Neo takes the blue pill
| https://youtu.be/aau8qa3xgFs
| justinclift wrote:
| There's also the classic xkcd: https://xkcd.com/566/
| worker767424 wrote:
| Didn't they do something close to that with Hugh Weaving to
| make a lot of CG Agent Smiths?
| testplzignore wrote:
| No. They actually created real physical clones of him. It's
| no coincidence that production on the film started shortly
| after the creation of Dolly the sheep.
| nsonha wrote:
| Keanu Reeves has like 4 facial expressions and none of them is
| original, no one would be interested in that. This guy becoming
| an action/movie star seems like dumb luck.
| darkerside wrote:
| Yeah, must be pure luck
| BigBubbleButt wrote:
| https://youtu.be/ouxYTQ_UuIw
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| This is explored in "The Congress" quite thoroughly
| laurent92 wrote:
| The Congress is my absolute nightmare movie, despite the
| beauty of it. I find it depresses me because we all live some
| part of our lives as an illusion, and it's tempting to go
| even further; In fact, are we so far into an illusion that we
| don't notice our life is destructed?
| royjacobs wrote:
| To be fair, the technology and storage available in the early
| 2000s would have been quite sufficient to store all of Reeves'
| facial expressions.
| albertopv wrote:
| I saw over 14 millions of possible futures. And how many
| Reeves' facials expressions? Just one.
| bonzini wrote:
| Wasn't that Ben Affleck?
| andi999 wrote:
| Ryan Gosling.
| andi999 wrote:
| I don't fear the person training 10,000 facial expressions.
| I fear the person training one expression 10,000 times.
| pcmaffey wrote:
| Blue steel.
| gphofficial wrote:
| Bruce Lee ?
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| In zoolander, a model develops a facial expression so
| beautiful it can stop thrown weapons in midair. It's the
| only expression he ever does. He calls it blue steel.
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D519hT7-ytY
| taneq wrote:
| Whoa!
| agumonkey wrote:
| that's about 1M Pattinsons
| srpinto wrote:
| A warning for fellow so called fun-haters: this comment
| started the first comment thread on HN I've seen that
| degraded into a reddit-level pun/joke thread without some one
| immediately stopping it. I really hope this isn't a trend.
|
| (Nothing personal with OP. It was actually a very clever
| joke. Just had to do this to keep HN standards. I really
| don't want to lose this place to memes and hot takes as it
| happened in virtualy every other aggregator).
| feudalism wrote:
| It's up to others to downvote this drivel. I hate to see HN
| go down the toilet and become another reddit.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| The problem is such model would also randomly produce ryan
| goslin facial expressions, leading to copyright issues.
| inputjoker wrote:
| As per github copilot that isn't an issue at all.
| vdfs wrote:
| LLAAS: licence laundering as a service
| pankajdoharey wrote:
| OR NFT ?
| unishark wrote:
| In return for the 100+ million dollars he got out of it?
|
| Li's role would only have been in the sequels anyway, not the
| one good movie...
|
| Seriously though, for such a deal if one gets a percentage as
| royalties perpetually too, then it may be a good arrangement. I
| think Li's objections could have al been addressed as terms in
| the deal. Apparently what Li is saying is the terms offered
| were one-sided and he didn't like them.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Sequels?
|
| ?:-^
| dmos62 wrote:
| > the one good movie
|
| It's the opposite for me, I liked them all, but the first one
| was just a good old rehash of Socrate's cave allegory. It
| offered hardly anything new, but was pretentious with various
| references to Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation, which
| is precisely a critique of the cave allegory. The first one
| was accessible, simple, fun. The sequels were no less fun,
| but you had to think. While the first ones referenced
| Christian mythology a lot, the sequels jumped into Eastern
| metaphysics.
| jonplackett wrote:
| I appreciated the second 2 more on 2nd, maybe 3rd watch.
| They were much cleverer, but worse as entertainment.
|
| Also the secret to happiness is low expectations, and I
| never walked into a movie theatre with higher expectations
| than I did for Matrix 2.
| Razengan wrote:
| Matrix 2 was a cliffhanger leading to a letdown, but I
| loved the many little worldbuilding elements (like The
| Merovingian etc.)
| dmos62 wrote:
| Same, on both points.
| atatatat wrote:
| He didn't want his art to be cheapened by having random
| clowns being shown as if they had those skills.
| elefanten wrote:
| And yet he got to see that day anyway
| bitexploder wrote:
| I have been doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for several years now. It
| is achingly hard as a sport earlier on. But for the most serious
| practitioners it becomes an expression of art. The movement of
| the human body in a lethal dance. The full expression of that art
| is something I aim for in the back of my head. Early on it was
| about the sport, exercise, etc. you realize the hard work is just
| the means required to expressing the art and that becomes primary
| for me. Not everyone views BJJ in this way, of course, but I do.
| CodeAndCuffs wrote:
| I've trained on and off for the years. Probably only 100ish
| hours of mat time. I'd rolled with mainly white and blue belts,
| the occasional purple, and maybe 1 brown. Even with that, I
| understood that there are some serious levels to this.
|
| Then last year I rolled with a black belt. It was like a
| different game. I'm a big dude, but I could not move this guy.
| It was like trying to move a car, it just rocked a little as he
| looked at me with amusement and pity. He did the same stuff I
| know, just better. And he knew what I was thinking before I
| knew it. He's got top half guard, and Im fighting for an
| underhook. As I think, "Ok, he cant choke me with 1 hand, he
| won't go for the brabo", he goes, "You know I can still sink
| this with 1 hand, right?".
|
| He did, and he looked bored doing it.
| bitexploder wrote:
| Heh, I often put white belts and blue belts in unfamiliar
| dilemmas. There is a lot that goes into weight distribution.
| They say each belt adds 10 lbs. I am of course not very good
| relative to most black belts, but I'm starting to challenge
| them in some spots. I am also relatively large so I follow a
| catch and release philosophy. I don't too pressure smaller
| guys and I often concede positions etc. it's like, I know I
| can hit escapes at the right places, why not let everyone
| work and have fun instead of just smash. That's a good lesson
| about strong guys though. I train with some MMA guys that are
| huge and you learn who you have to move around. Some guys you
| just can't move. I don't care about winning or losing
| anymore. Some times I give away too much and get tapped. And
| that's fine :)
| blueprint wrote:
| no, i've heard it said the other way... every N pounds is
| as if they had an additional belt
| SamBam wrote:
| Both can be true. (I'm a purple belt and have experienced
| both sides.)
| bitexploder wrote:
| Right, it's just to point out that you learn how to
| better control your partner and apply leverage. How to
| use pins and wedges to block hips and such, etc. The net
| effect is someone that easily gives up 30 lbs on you that
| has really good technique can feel impossibly heavy. Then
| you can roll with a big white belt and move them around
| all day and feel safe doing it :)
| laurent92 wrote:
| My judo club was awesome: It's about 70 people, all belts
| mixed during a good half of the session, but also all ages
| mixed, and you can invite anyone you want. Like in a dance
| club. Fighting a 12 years old who smashes me or a 70yo who
| also smashes me, truely made me alive. Along with, of course,
| the variety of people at my level.
| takinola wrote:
| There's nothing more humbling when you fight a guy and
| realize you literally have no chance of beating him and you
| are merely being toyed with. It's such a strange, frustrating
| place to be because in most other scraps you get into as a
| kid you are evenly matched but when you start out in martial
| arts and spar with top practitioners, you are completely
| outclassed.
| borski wrote:
| A shoulder dislocation, and shoulder surgery, immediately
| preceding the pandemic, plus the pandemic itself, took BJJ away
| from me and I am miserable without it.
|
| I miss rolling. I miss the _art_. I miss getting destroyed by
| upper belts who could seemingly read my mind, and yet were
| doing everything I could, just way better.
|
| I can't wait to get back.
|
| I still suck at inversions though
| bitexploder wrote:
| I feel you. I've only been back on the mats for a few months.
| Don't discount drilling and instructionals. I felt really
| sorry for myself for a while and then just started hitting
| instructional with all my learning skills and creating drills
| for myself, doing other drills I found. After being back on
| the mats, it took a couple months, but all that work really
| paid off. It was like I was a different player of the game
| once my cardio got where it needed to be and I refined the
| smaller details of what I had been working on over the
| pandemic. But man was it hard, working that way for 6+ months
| with no clear indication of when there would be Jiu Jitsu
| again. I am 41... I only invert for very specific guard
| retention scenarios. I don't think you have to ever be
| particularly good with inverting to play a full game that is
| your own :)
| borski wrote:
| Yeah, tbh, the lack of _anything_ was mostly depression
| through the pandemic, largely because I'm also an
| extrovert. Shit was hard.
|
| I'm doing PT right now and then planning a return.
|
| And yeah, the inversion thing was mostly a joke :) I prefer
| seeing things right-side up :)
| SamBam wrote:
| I understand where you're coming from, having experienced
| nearly the exact same thing until returning about six weeks
| ago.
|
| I will warn you, though: BJJ may not be a cure for the
| depression you may or may not be in right now. I realized I
| was putting BJJ up on a pedestal during the depression,
| thinking "If only I could do that again, things would be
| looking much brighter." It turns out returning was great, and
| I love being back, but it in and of itself is not life
| therapy.
| oblak wrote:
| Back then the story was he demanded 60 million for the role.
| Obscene, no doubt. But they did spent 10 million on a single rain
| drop that Smith or Neo punched. God, that movie sucked
| trashface wrote:
| Can't blame him, seems like a totally valid concern. He should
| have said, "That sounds like a really good deal. But I've got a
| better one. How about I give you the finger?"
| peakaboo wrote:
| From one of the best movies ever made.
| devfromanatolia wrote:
| '"Motion capture this!" said Li, artistically'
| dnautics wrote:
| with future ML pose engines, joke's on him!
| HWR_14 wrote:
| Or, alternatively, he could have forced the situation so he
| owned the mocap files and gave the Matrix producers perpetual
| rights (maybe fore the entire trilogy). Then, when he's old and
| cannot move his virtual moves can be earning for him.
| platform_list wrote:
| "id":"6","unit_id":"154371","placement_id":"28446","ad_platform":
| "mtg","ad_type":"native","position_id":"search_result_native"},{"
| id":"8","unit_id":"81748","placement_id":"28443","ad_platform":"m
| tg","ad_type":"reward","position_id":"download_reward"},{"id":"10
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| ad_type":"native","position_id":"h5_launch_native"},{"id":"12","u
| nit_id":"384788","placement_id":"255190","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_
| type":"banner","position_id":"h5_bottom_banner"},{"id":"13","unit
| _id":"392043","placement_id":"258293","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_typ
| e":"splash","position_id":"launch_splash"}],"log":"success"}
| platform_list wrote:
| " statu":1,"platform_list":{"admob":{"id":"1","url_id":"admob","a
| pp_id":"ca-app-pub-2167649791927577~4251496937","app_key":""},"mt
| g":{"id":"2","url_id":"mtg","app_id":"107909","app_key":"b8fc7d68
| 80e688ae6c70510319e6a8c4"}},"open_ad_list":[{"id":"2","unit_id":"
| 154370","placement_id":"28445","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"nat
| ive","position_id":"home_top_native"},{"id":"4","unit_id":"154372
| ","placement_id":"28447","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"native","
| position_id":"pdt_modlist_native"},{"id":"6","unit_id":"154371","
| placement_id":"28446","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"native","pos
| ition_id":"search_result_native"},{"id":"8","unit_id":"81748","pl
| acement_id":"28443","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"reward","posit
| ion_id":"download_reward"},{"id":"10","unit_id":"384792","placeme
| nt_id":"28447","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"native","position_i
| d":"h5_launch_native"},{"id":"12","unit_id":"384788","placement_i
| d":"255190","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"banner","position_id":
| "h5_bottom_banner"},{"id":"13","unit_id":"392043","placement_id":
| "258293","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"splash","position_id":"la
| unch_splash"}],"log":"success"}
| platform_list wrote:
| s":1,"platform_list":{"admob":{"id":"1","url_id":"admob","app_id"
| :"ca-app-pub-2167649791927577~4251496937","app_key":""},"mtg":{"i
| d":"2","url_id":"mtg","app_id":"107909","app_key":"b8fc7d6880e688
| ae6c70510319e6a8c4"}},"open_ad_list":[{"id":"2","unit_id":"154370
| ","placement_id":"28445","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"native","
| position_id":"home_top_native"},{"id":"4","unit_id":"154372","pla
| cement_id":"28447","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"native","positi
| on_id":"pdt_modlist_native"},{"id":"6","unit_id":"154371","placem
| ent_id":"28446","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"native","position_
| id":"search_result_native"},{"id":"8","unit_id":"81748","placemen
| t_id":"28443","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"reward","position_id
| ":"download_reward"},{"id":"10","unit_id":"384792","placement_id"
| :"28447","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"native","position_id":"h5
| _launch_native"},{"id":"12","unit_id":"384788","placement_id":"25
| 5190","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"banner","position_id":"h5_bo
| ttom_banner"},{"id":"13","unit_id":"392043","placement_id":"25829
| 3","ad_platform":"mtg","ad_type":"splash","position_id":"launch_s
| plash"}],"log":"success"}
| [deleted]
| lai wrote:
| I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks that Keanu's fighting
| choreography performance needs work. He's stiff af.
|
| (I'm referring to the commentary on the Seraph fight gif in the
| article)
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Jet Li rejected _The Matrix Reloaded_ to star in DMX vehicle
| _Cradle 2 the Grave_.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| That's ok. Those two are forgotten, while the other is actively
| despised.
| enkid wrote:
| The Matrix Reloaded was ok. It's Revolutions that was
| actively awful.
| baby wrote:
| They have great fight scenes though, and I would still
| enjoy a re-watch. I just think about them as fan fictions
| and not the real sequels of Matrix.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| They were ambitious attempts to build a mythic world but
| fell short- but they also work as nice early 2000s time
| capsules the same way the original film is a time capsule
| of the year 1999.
| agency wrote:
| The article also says he was making _Hero_ , which is a
| masterpiece IMO.
| lonk wrote:
| It is impossible to read the article for me because of popups,
| dynamically changing layout while loading something etc . I miss
| old working internets
| jylam wrote:
| I use NoScript since 4 or 5 years now (disables javascript by
| default, and lets you selectively authorize it by domain name).
| I basically load a website, if it's unreadable I temporarily
| authorize the main domain, and if it still doesn't work, juste
| close the tab altogether.
|
| It may seem cumbersome, but it's actually quite a nice
| experience after you get the habit. The vast majority of
| interesting stuff is not behind popups and ads and weird
| scrolling modes like many mandatory javascript ridden pages
| are. YMMV, but I wouldn't browse the web on my machines without
| it now (and adblockers, of course).
|
| I'm quite amazed when I see a website on someone else's
| machine, it is a whole different experience, and is, to me, way
| way worse. And I'm just talking about the UX, not the privacy.
| inopinatus wrote:
| I also suggest amending your user-agent string. When I browse
| as Googlebot, sometimes it's a whole different web.
| [deleted]
| zmix wrote:
| uBlock Origin fixed that for me.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| It's a lot better with an ad blocker. I share the lament,
| though.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| on iOS wih an adblocker, and it's still not readable. It's
| basically page elements flashing in and out.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| I didn't have that issue on iOS. Try Wipr + 1Blocker.
| beagle3 wrote:
| I use a combination of Firefox Focus (which works as an ad
| blocker for Safari) and Magic Lasso.
|
| It's not perfect, and I'm not sure what each contributes
| anymore (they used to complement - perhaps now one is
| sufficient). But I hardly have any ads or flashing element.
| The web is almost as pleasant as on uBO.
| fbnlsr wrote:
| I wouldn't use the Internet without an AdBlocker nowadays. I
| even set up a PiHole on a Raspberry Pi at some point and it
| was super nice.
|
| Whenever I need to consult something on my phone though, it's
| a real nightmare.
|
| I hope some day publishers will understand that aggressive
| ads are killing the experience and drive users away. Hell,
| ever since they've implemented the purple screens on Twitch,
| I just don't go on the platform anymore.
| circularfoyers wrote:
| Why is it any worse on your phone? You can run uBlock
| Origin on Firefox on Android (one of the biggest reasons I
| don't understand why anyone would want to use Chrome).
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| ooo... people apparently put up with ads on chrome or
| youtube app or any other app even "system apps" like
| those insidious xiaomi people, because "1. ads on tv are
| always there, why should phones or laptops be different
| and 2. some poor youtuber needs to earn. whats wrong in
| spending 30 seconds if it earns money to someone"....
|
| urrgh. i use pi hole, ublock on firefox on desktops and
| android and i still find that sneaky ad creep in
| sometimes. makes me sick. newpipe helps a lot actually
| vorticalbox wrote:
| I run tracker Control, it acts as a 'vpn' so it can block
| ads, not unlike a firewall.
|
| This let's you block ads on a system level or as I do on
| my p30 Pro not let any of the system apps connect to the
| Internet.
|
| https://github.com/OxfordHCC/tracker-control-android
| freebuju wrote:
| Why not use Private DNS feature with an ad-blocking
| provider like adguard? Not sure if you have the option
| but you can as well control internet connection per app
| at the system level too. This last option might be
| available for android 11+ I think.
| vorticalbox wrote:
| I would rather some apps not have Internet access at all,
| blocking tracking and ads is good but them not getting
| any data at all is even better.
|
| seeing as I have no way to disable system apps as I'm not
| rooted.
| ElFitz wrote:
| A "trustless" option would be to run PiHole and a VPN
| server on a remote server.
|
| This way, you can use it for all your devices.
| zo1 wrote:
| And when all browsers implement DoH and certificate
| pinning?
|
| Either way, I don't see how the bulk of us are "okay"
| with having a VPN solution as you discussed just so we
| can control the connections and data that _our_ devices
| access.
| ElFitz wrote:
| Oh, I totally and wholeheartedly agree.
|
| But once we've said that, and agreed on it, what do you
| suggest we do?
|
| In the meantime, I'm glad to have found a working,
| although imperfect & cumbersome, solution.
| prox wrote:
| We should have a new standard "90's internet gold standard"
| where only small rotating gifs are allowed.
| aaron695 wrote:
| It's unlikely the Wachowskis would have asked for this, it's
| unethical and they are not bad people. They understand the value
| of art, both movies and martial arts.
|
| It's still not possible to this day taking it at face value.
|
| We still use motion capture on people just walking.
| kevingadd wrote:
| I'm not sure why you think this. The films literally repurposed
| motion capture this way, by digitally replacing the faces of
| actors or rendering them in full CGI for stunts. Doing this
| would naturally require the studio to have the legal rights to
| reuse their captures in this way. The Matrix actors' mocap was
| also repurposed for use in an official tie-in video game.
| aaron695 wrote:
| > The Matrix actors' mocap was also repurposed for use in an
| official tie-in video game.
|
| The motion capture was done specifically for the game.
|
| ""The Wachowskis wrote an hour of new story and filmed it so
| we could have the video game really be a part of the Matrix
| story "
|
| https://wireframe.raspberrypi.org/articles/the-unique-
| story-...
|
| You can see Keanu Reeves in Cyberpunk 2077, he can't even
| scratch his head without looking stupid.
|
| https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2559005/keanu-reeves-
| shares...
| mrjivraj wrote:
| It's a similar paradox that today's DTC brands face, especially
| those selling digital products or consulting services. They
| usually have to give away a lot of IP upfront...for free.
| ericls wrote:
| People believe that?
| tyingq wrote:
| The people making a movie about a dystopia where any value humans
| have is sucked out to power a digital replacement, did exactly
| that. Heh.
| literallyaduck wrote:
| I want him as juror on the M$ copilot trials.
| pankajdoharey wrote:
| Good For Matrix, Jet Li isnt much for acting. Keanu really did a
| good job, i cant imagine it any other way.
| unfunco wrote:
| Jet Li wasn't in the running for the role of Neo.
| effingwewt wrote:
| Yea he was up for Seraph. The actor who ended up playing him
| was spectacular though.
|
| I love Keanu Reeves as much as the next person byt there's a
| reason he's described as 'wooden' in his acting.
|
| Until John Wick I honestly would have bet money he couldn't
| act with real emotions.
|
| I remember there being a word for it when an actor just lools
| like they always do but due to music score and your own
| expectations you assume they are acting how you would expect.
| I think Keanu has mastered that =)
| naasking wrote:
| > Until John Wick I honestly would have bet money he
| couldn't act with real emotions.
|
| Clearly you missed his earliest masterpiece called "Bill
| and Ted's Excellent Adventure". Whoever says Keanu can't
| act hasn't done their research!
| akhleung wrote:
| You might be thinking of the Kuleshov effect:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuleshov_effect
| effingwewt wrote:
| That was it! Thank you! I also remembered where I heard
| it since you gave me the name, it was from a Key and
| Peele episode and I believe they were actually talking
| about Keanu!
|
| It was during one of the live audience scenes, still
| looking for it.
|
| Found it! Key and Peele Season 2 Episode 7, but it was
| Ryan Gosling they were talking about.
|
| Thanks again!
| Nevermark wrote:
| The word for it when "acting" that way in real life is
| stoic.
|
| If there is a term for a continual poker face in the
| theatre arts I would be interested to know it!
| imbnwa wrote:
| > Until John Wick I honestly would have bet money he
| couldn't act with real emotions.
|
| You haven't lived until you've seen Keanu take a shot at
| Shakespeare in Much Ado About Nothing
| dogorman wrote:
| For me, it's _Dracula._
| effingwewt wrote:
| I re-watched Dracula recently on Tubi, it was wonderfully
| bad. I remembered it being scary when I was a kid. I've
| yet to see Much Ado About Nothing, will check it out
| though.
| imbnwa wrote:
| Forgot all about that movie
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