[HN Gopher] Windows 365 Cloud PC
___________________________________________________________________
Windows 365 Cloud PC
Author : WalterSobchak
Score : 89 points
Date : 2021-07-14 15:16 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.microsoft.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.microsoft.com)
| beervirus wrote:
| Congratulations, you have invented Citrix.
| atatatat wrote:
| lol, have you overseen a Citrix deployment?!
| pimlottc wrote:
| Congratulations, you have eliminated a middleman.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| You're being unnecessarily snarky for some reason.
|
| They aren't suggesting that this is new technology, but I do
| believe it's a new product - I don't think I've been able to
| sign up for a service with this kind of convenience before.
| topicseed wrote:
| Interesting to see if Mighty App sees this as competition to
| their Chrome streaming.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Gah, was waiting for this to come up: now whenever I hear about
| some kind of 'app streaming' or whatever I just think of smug
| Mighty bro
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| It looks like this is just an RDP-style solution which is
| disappointing, it would be really interesting if things still ran
| locally but _everything_ - apps and data - were synced in real
| time to the cloud, allowing you to login anywhere on any Windows
| PC and get _all_ your stuff, without worrying about subsequent
| users of that hardware from seeing it once you logged out.
|
| That would be pretty amazing, but it looks like it's just all
| running in the cloud.
| phamilton wrote:
| Vscode Remote strikes a very good balance IMO. The client
| running completely locally with a server running on the remote
| machine.
| seanalexander wrote:
| With today's broadband standards being so slow, this is a
| nightmare waiting to happen.
| alphachloride wrote:
| Oh no! What is you doing?
|
| This looks interesting on second thought. A good way to
| consolidate workplace systems for low-bandwidth display
| applications where consistently low latency is not a big concern.
|
| I hope that this is not the beginning of the next iteration of
| Windows for the general consumers. I like the OS, and I'd like it
| to remain on my hard drive.
| atatatat wrote:
| this + a future Surface Duo == winner of convergence for the
| masses.
| basch wrote:
| It's also infinitely easier for Microsoft to improve and
| protect world security by controlling all network data going
| into and coming out of a device. A framebuffer delivered to
| your monitor means Microsoft can run all its advanced threat
| detection magic with no regard for what network a monitor is
| plugged into.
|
| The millions of unprotected businesses of the world can skip
| zerotrust / firewall / antivirus / network redesigns and jump
| right to pc-aas with azure-ad.
|
| For all the "I dont want big brother controlling my device"
| there should be an equal "I dont want teams with millions of
| dollars carelessly building infrastructure that can be
| weaponized against society."
| hulitu wrote:
| It is also a "say good bye to your data". Next MS innovation:
| backups in the cloud.
| anthk wrote:
| Ah, yes, dumb terminals. They are like 50 years late.
| pope_meat wrote:
| No. You get a touch screen with a WPU. A Web Processing Unit,
| it will authenticate you as a valid subscriber and let you
| access the clouds CPU/GPU.
|
| You own nothin, you're a user.
|
| 2030.
| shadilay wrote:
| Microsoft is a B2B corporation. Anything B2C only exists to
| prevent competition from rising up to take on it's real cash
| cow.
| [deleted]
| desktopninja wrote:
| Finally! 7$ a month ... make it the same price as netflix
| subscription but with access to xbox live and windows 365
|
| RE: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2867542/microsoft-
| tout...
|
| AWS Workspaces is actually pretty good too.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| It's a different license. There's no way VM could cost
| $7/month. More like $70/month/
| shadilay wrote:
| This is a much bigger deal than HN realizes. The PC experience
| hasn't changed much in a long time. The future of windows in the
| corporate world is cloud first and access to your 'session' and
| files from any device. This is to the corporate world what
| chromebooks were to schools. Yes RDP/Network drives exist but if
| you have to train users it's a non starter for mass adoption. No
| one wants to explain to the computer illiterate the difference
| between local files and shared drives.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Perfect for my use case where I need the occasional place to test
| random Windows stuff or temporarily need a computer with a
| different IP. I have a Win 10 eval VM here at home but I don't
| really like maintaining it.
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| Over my dead body.
| esens wrote:
| This makes sense. It is a competitor to Amazon's Windows Desktop
| environments. Microsoft should beat AWS's offering here because
| well, they make the OS that they are virtualizing.
|
| I can see this working for a lot of places where you want good
| information security. You can never get the data out of the cloud
| except via screenshot.
| gexla wrote:
| > Microsoft should beat AWS's offering here because well, they
| make the OS that they are virtualizing.
|
| Not necessarily. They have already had a similar service. This
| seems to be a simplification of that service? Maybe it's sort
| of like Amazon offering Lightsail as an alternative to EC2?
| After clicking around the site for a half hour trying to figure
| out pricing for Azure Virtual Desktops, I gave up. I figured if
| you have to ask how much it is, then I can't afford it. Now
| they are launching a service seemingly directed to users like
| me, but they still can't give us prices. I assume they will in
| time for launch, but I'm getting really sick of hunting for
| prices on Azure. Every minute I have spent on that site has
| been wasted.
|
| I doubt they would beat AWS on pricing. The AWS instances
| appear to be really well priced relative to what you could get
| if you tried to do the same with EC2. I couldn't see MS being
| as cheap. From what I remember, Azure is generally more
| expensive across the board.
| easton wrote:
| Microsoft's secret weapon here is that if you subscribe to
| Microsoft 365 Business/Enterprise (which is a prereq for this
| according for what they've said), they include a Windows
| license that can be ran on Azure for VDI. On AWS, you have to
| buy CALs and licensing for the instances (Windows VDA
| licenses? I last looked into that years ago). Or you can buy
| the licenses from AWS but I'm sure that's not the rate you'd
| pay getting them directly from Microsoft (and then you often
| have to use Windows Server which doesn't have things like
| WSL2).
|
| That's not a gigantic barrier if you're an enterprise, but
| figuring out licensing for Workspaces if you don't have a
| couple smart Microsoft admins and money to burn is really
| hard. This is easy, since all of the license entitlements are
| enforced through their portal. (if you can start an instance
| you are licensed)
| my123 wrote:
| > around the site for a half hour trying to figure out
| pricing for Azure Virtual Desktops
|
| Pricing for Azure Virtual Desktop starts with a hundred users
| minimum. (available at https://azure.microsoft.com/en-
| us/pricing/calculator/)
| noobee wrote:
| The service is free (you need Microsoft E3/E5 license), you
| just pay for the VMs, which you can customize any way you
| want.
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| > good information security
|
| > You can never get the data out of the cloud except via
| screenshot.
|
| pick one
| GordonS wrote:
| 100% guaranteed, cast-iron, watertight security is impossible
| - but VDIs could potentially prevent whole classes of attack.
| It's about increasing the barrier against realistic threat
| models.
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| I completely agree - many attack vectors are more
| difficult, and some are impossible. However, saying "you
| can never get the data out of the cloud except via
| screenshot" is, first of all, untrue, as other means exist,
| and second, preventing access to data is not the most
| important security aspect of such a system.
| hpoe wrote:
| This was of course the logical end of the cloud expansion. Why
| pay for users to have a beefy machine when all their apps live in
| the cloud anyway.
|
| Also now it is so much easier to enforce policies prevent users
| from installing things they shouldn't, recover lost data, etc.
|
| Of course it brings with it all the same issues. Hopefully we can
| figure out how to move back to private computing before they make
| all endpoints dumb terminals.
| nonfamous wrote:
| The commentary here so far is technical -- "it's just RDP" -- but
| I suspect the real story here is on the business side. The fact
| that no pricing is available is telling - this isn't for
| consumers. But for big companies who get this as part of their
| enterprise agreements, I bet this is a big deal for their IT
| departments.
| user3939382 wrote:
| If it's a business service RDP that would be Azure Virtual
| Desktop. Again, it very well may be something different. But
| this announcement doesn't make clear what that would be.
| sciurus wrote:
| The announcement explicitly says that this is Azure Virtual
| Desktop.
|
| "Windows 365 is built on Azure Virtual Desktop, but it
| simplifies the virtualization experience--handling all the
| details for you. "
| geocrasher wrote:
| At first I thought "another RDP solution" but then I saw this
| line: Windows 365 also creates a new hybrid
| personal computing category called Cloud PC, which uses both the
| power of the cloud and the capabilities of the device...
|
| Does that mean it makes use of local hardware past the
| capabilities it would need as a thin client? GPU acceleration,
| etc? It'll be interesting to find out.
| ithkuil wrote:
| well, being able to print to a local printer or access a local
| usb-drive is making use of the "capabilities of the device",
| and certainly within the grasp of boring good old technologies
| over RDP
| user3939382 wrote:
| Windows Server has had something like this for a while, it's
| called RemoteFX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RemoteFX
|
| I guess we'll have to wait to see if this is just a rebranding
| of the same thing or something new.
| misterbwong wrote:
| According to other sources, Microsoft will reveal Windows 365
| pricing on Aug. 2, when the service becomes generally
| available.
|
| Cool to see RDP-ish type capabilities outside of tech circles
| but will wait until the price is revealed. My guess is that it
| will still be out of reach for most consumers, unfortunately.
| gruez wrote:
| I think you're reading too much into it. Sure, it's possible
| that they have some sort of RDMA technology that allows you to
| automagically offload work from your local machine to a cloud
| GPU/CPU, but I doubt it. My guess is that it'll be something
| lame like "having a synced workspace (aka onedrive) and being
| able to edit documents on it locally and have it synced to your
| cloud workspace"
| okareaman wrote:
| Maybe this will help...
|
| What is hybrid cloud? https://www.netapp.com/hybrid-cloud/what-
| is-hybrid-cloud/
| Shadonototro wrote:
| Linux should have got the lead here, what happened?
|
| Lack of app ecosystem in Linux? i think that's the problem..
| GordonS wrote:
| Will be interesting to see pricing - I wonder if there will be
| any kind of discount for orgs that already have most of their
| people on Windows, or indeed for employees using their own
| Windows devices.
|
| I could see this being a big security bonus for a lot of
| companies, especially with the shift to WFH - I'd think a lot of
| companies had to rather hastily deploy VPNs etc, and that's not
| the kind of infrastructure you want to rush...
|
| Also, I can imagine some unscrupulous companies seeing this as a
| money-saving exercise, forcing employees to use their own devices
| instead of providing one for them.
| Shadonototro wrote:
| Leaks indicates it will be starting at $59.99/month
|
| This way too expansive, I'm not sure that'll find a place in IT
| places, most professionals already know how to work with a
| VPS..
|
| Unless some tech illiterates management makes decisions, I fail
| to see how this can be successful
| aaomidi wrote:
| Considering there is probably going to be discounts for large
| integrators, and that price adds up to $720/year - if this
| actually does replace upgrade costs - it might be worth to
| some companies.
| pmontra wrote:
| $720.00 per year including the hardware and availability
| everywhere there is an internet connection. It's $2,160.00 in
| 3 years, a professional level laptop. The local device could
| be very cheap and light.
|
| I wonder what are the hardware and bandwidth requirements.
| temp8964 wrote:
| It will be available at Aug 2nd. No price info.
|
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-365
| desc wrote:
| Ugh, when will they learn.
|
| I actively DO NOT WANT this stuff.
|
| * Not 'I want something else they haven't built yet and this is
| irrelevant'. * Not 'I don't understand this and just want
| something they think it already does'.
|
| I mean: the entire concept of a universal Cloud account sharing
| an 'experience' across multiple devices _is something I will
| gladly pay to avoid,_ as will the majority of people I know who
| _aren 't_ in IT (and can't necessarily afford the
| time/money/attention it takes to get away from this shit these
| days).
|
| The people pushing this shit are either stupid or malicious, and
| either way they need to be removed from any position of control
| as soon as possible.
| ithkuil wrote:
| > Ugh, when will they learn.
|
| Let's admit it: they don't have you (or me) in mind!
|
| It's not that they have to learn; why would they care about you
| (or me)? I'm not a fan of their products but they are certainly
| free to focus to whatever costumer group they see fit. It's not
| like nowadays there aren't alternatives to windows.
| jensensbutton wrote:
| Windows is literally the last consumer OS to get on this train.
| Seems they have learned. From their competitors.
| taejavu wrote:
| How do I do this with MacOS?
| misterbwong wrote:
| This is a pretty bold stance to take on this specific product.
| More people want a seamless experience moving from device-to-
| device than not.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Is the cloud to butt extension still a thing? Seems really
| appropriate here.
| dzonga wrote:
| this will be easy money for microsoft. we're now back to the day
| of thin clients. with a full OS streaming from the cloud,
| Enterprises can reduce costs. And with 0 trust, it means data is
| more secure either ways i.e prevent future hacks due to
| incompetent IT policies. However, as a consumer I get worried
| about how ownership is slowly being chipped away. slowly we're
| renting everything.
| roody15 wrote:
| slowly? Seems to be moving quickly to rent a model in just
| about everything :/
| metalliqaz wrote:
| This seems like a natural product to come out of MS's cloud
| strategy. Especially considering the cloud gaming they're
| building with Xbox Game Pass. Also notable that it's at the same
| time they decided to turn a Windows 10 upgrade into Windows 11.
| [deleted]
| bhauer wrote:
| This technology needs to be something one can enable on their own
| PCs, and reach via their own private VPN. It should not require
| using a public cloud such as Azure.
| BluePen8 wrote:
| I'm excited for this, my wife is an accountant and often asks me
| to help her with VBA macros.
|
| Which means that for this reason alone I have to dedicate 40GB of
| my laptop's hard drive to a Windows partition with office, adobe,
| and other stuff installed.
|
| And if she's not physically near me, I have no way of getting the
| script to her with any guarantee it'll behave the same or work at
| all on her work computer.
|
| Having worked within unix for so long, I'd started taking it for
| granted how everything is either portable, or can be easily
| containerized, Windows and accompanying products are incredibly
| environment finicky and janky overall.
|
| To be able to just do the remote version of "handing over the
| laptop" will be a godsend.
| mandeepj wrote:
| How it's different than a VM running in their cloud?
| solarkraft wrote:
| It's a VM running in their cloud.
|
| Just a bit nicer to use (productized), which is important.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| Back when people were predicting Microsoft porting Windows to the
| new ARM based Macs I thought this was a much more likely
| solution.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Windows already runs on ARM.
| andybak wrote:
| Any pricing details?
| hulitu wrote:
| It's free just like win 10. You can even encrypt your data
| (they have the key). Be sure to read the EULA before you use
| it.
| shadilay wrote:
| If I read the EULA first I might still be reading it by the
| time the product is discontinued.
| hanselot wrote:
| All your data are belong to us.
|
| I guess the ms devs finally figured out that their powershells
| can run ssh
| steinskeeper wrote:
| OSception. Your OS runs a browser and your browser runs a OS.
| Proves the point as to how important browsers truly are.
| anthk wrote:
| Sorry, web developer, but you are wrong. Half of this is backed
| by libvirt/kvm/hyper-v and protocols like RDP and VNC/Spice.
|
| The Web it's just reimplementing _the clients_ , badly,
| requiring twice the requeriments.
| adamparsons wrote:
| Lipstick on a pig
| version_five wrote:
| Haha yeah I was just sending instructions to a team today on
| how to set up some software and I wasn't sure what OS they were
| using. I wrote up the linux and mac instructions and when I got
| to windows i had to think for a minute if i really thought
| there was a chance someone would have a windows machine. I
| ended up including instructions, but I know that at least for
| development stuff, windows is just an afterthought, nobody is
| really expecting people to be using it.
| adamparsons wrote:
| In this case I mean, VDI has existed for literally decades
| now. Are we supposed to congratulate MS for doing what every
| other cloud provider did more than 10 years ago?
| alkonaut wrote:
| It hasn't been a very convenient solution though. I suspect
| the key here is the managing of everyone's data and machine
| in the company. Instant-on personal clients with the
| company directory would be great for administration.
| alkonaut wrote:
| I assure you huge number of developers do their development
| stuff on windows. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a
| majority (given how big the majority is for windows on the
| desktop overall).
|
| Edit: indeed after some quick googling it does indeed seem to
| be the clear majority desktop OS even for people identifying
| as software developers, for example in the StackOverflow
| developer survey.
| cenourinhapt wrote:
| Thank you, but nope.
| _trampeltier wrote:
| I had recently a webinar from Siemens Automation, where they
| talked about such licence models, just everything in the cloud.
| I asked myself how they would do that, but now it looks much
| more clear I guess.
|
| But I have to agree with you. Thank you, but nope.
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| This is what we were telling Adobe when they first announced
| CC.
| user3939382 wrote:
| I read the whole announcement. Sounds like RDP which we've had
| for 20+ years. I'm assuming it's different but this doesn't
| explain how. "We've created a cloud PC" So a thin client?
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Thin client with subscription fees.... Lame
| glitchcrab wrote:
| I got a few sentences in and thought 'thin client' too.
| rbanffy wrote:
| Which is newspeak for "terminal" ;-)
| chrisseaton wrote:
| And Dropbox is just rsync, right?
| dmux wrote:
| I wonder if native apps will regain some of their lost popularity
| if the whole OS and app itself can just be streamed to any
| device.
| pmontra wrote:
| Only if developers want to build and distribute native apps. I
| don't see why they would change their attitude. Web apps are
| basically multiplatform and updated on the server.
| inetknght wrote:
| This is utter trash. Microsoft should go back to selling products
| instead of selling subscriptions.
| glitchcrab wrote:
| It's all about that MRR figure.
| bokohut wrote:
| This will be significantly interesting to follow from a revenue
| generation perspective and how they are going to abuse users and
| then ask for forgiveness. Monthly billing will need a valid
| payment instrument "on file" and over time they are certain to
| nickel and dime users for features. So you want to print on your
| home printer from your M$ cloud hosted Window$ in$tance, that
| will be 5C/ per page or we can send it to your local Staples* for
| pickup at 1C/ per page. A microtransaction chargeback for a
| failed print from a paper jam will be interesting to review. This
| is certain to go in the direction most know it will and has the
| potential to redefine the term pay-per-click. Just look past the
| security implications and the die-sasters that are certain to
| occur from making Windows available from anywhere "easy" for the
| non-technical crowd.
|
| *By agreeing to any savings through our third party vendors you
| are hereby informed that we SharE aLL your information with these
| vendors in order to recoup the savings extended to you.
| MarcScott wrote:
| Is this just Active Directory over the internet, or am I
| misreading the post?
| CountDrewku wrote:
| No this has nothing to do with AD. Off-prem cloud AD is already
| being done via Azure.
| shubb wrote:
| If you think about a big microsoft based corp who are now using
| azure - they have an on prem AD and are using all kinds of AD
| magic to administrate their real hardware. Then they have an
| Azure AD that manages their servers and other resources and
| controls access to all their cloud stuff. Now a local domain
| user needs rights on some cloud asset with single sign on -
| consulting around I've seen company sholve this a bunch of ways
| and it's a mess.
|
| So if one thing MS are doing here is adding an elegant official
| way of doing that - that would be nice.
| cmxch wrote:
| So this is what Microsoft wants the PCs to run that can't run
| Windows 11.
|
| That said, it is a nightmare for privacy, security, and openness.
|
| A nightmare for privacy and security given that they have the
| data (and likely the means to unlock it).
|
| A nightmare for openness given that data interchange will be
| discouraged in favor of the walled garden.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| It is technically possible to encrypt VM in a way that even
| host can't decrypt it. AMD Epyc CPUs supports encrypted memory.
| ksec wrote:
| I am assuming this will be aiming for Enterprise niche in certain
| segment?
|
| Or will Microsoft start selling Windows OS that only does Remote
| Connection to OEMs? i.e Only used for Windows 365? Basically
| Microsoft version of ChromeOS.
| GordonS wrote:
| > Windows 365 provides an instant-on boot experience
|
| Unless they mean it'll instantly show a loading screen, I'll bet
| it doesn't.
|
| I've used various VDI implementations over the years, and they've
| all been pretty slow to get to a working desktop.
|
| I also wonder about latency. I have a 100/20 FTTC connection at
| home, which I find to be fast. Most recent VDI I used was Citrix,
| where I was expected to code in a VDI hosted in Netherlands (I'm
| in the UK) - the latency when typing drove me fucking NUTS! It
| was mostly just long enough to be _intensely_ irritating and
| distracting, but occasionally latency would increase to a few
| seconds too.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Same here, but Microsoft, having source code all the way to the
| client, probably can do better than third-party providers.
|
| And the latency, I completely understand you. You learn to live
| with it after a while, sometimes you don't even notice it.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Just use TRAMP/VSCode remote.
| tannhaeuser wrote:
| I decided to reject Citrix or Remote Desktop dev contracts on
| matters of principle, because you never know what irrational
| workflow they're coming up with next. If your customer/employer
| values their control-freakery higher than dev efficiency or
| sanity, I'm out. Recently, I had a contract where they used
| Citrix to work on a stupid Windows VM, only to execute Docker
| containers, winbash build scripts, and git (plus cross-platform
| IDE). Madness! A friend of mine even has to endure web dev via
| Citrix. Have fun doing CSS transitions on Edge in a VM in a
| browser tab. Or attempt to get Teams meeting invites from
| Outlook-in-VM out to your native or web Teams client on your
| local machine (as required, you know, for audio/mic). It's
| terrifyingly stupid.
| hpoe wrote:
| I had one project I was working on for a client where they
| thought they were super important and confidential (NVM they
| were neglecting all of the real security best practices). One
| of the things they decided is that as part of the project
| everyone would have to move a VDI solution in a different
| network and then everyone would have to do all their work
| from this network, in the name of security. The problem was I
| was only interacting with the cloud side of this project,
| working with the actual cloud public API, so everything I was
| working on was already public facing and didn't care about
| network concerns.
|
| I ended up writing an email to the decision markers in the
| project outlining why "1) I didn't want a VDI 2) A VDI would
| take me forever to setup properly for my workflow anyway* 3)
| It would do nothing for the project's security to have me
| working on a VDI and 4) It would be a pain in the but trying
| to work on a VDI.
|
| I was told that my objections were valid and true but I
| needed to work on a VDI anyway. It was at that moment I
| stopped caring about the project.
|
| I did end up winning in the end however as when I finally
| agreed to do it (not my money the company was setting on
| fire) they asked me to send a list of what I'd need my VDI to
| be setup like. So I sent them a list of everything I'd need
| to mimic my current working environment and what I was doing
| now, including a Linux OS (The VDI solution was Windows only)
| with X11 and i3 setup. A full Doom Emacs configuration,
| special developer libraries and tooling, and several other
| items. With a long list of alternatives I would need
| installed if my first choice wasn't available, with specific
| versions, etc.
|
| I sent off that email and they said they'd set me up with the
| desktop environment I need and let me know when it was
| finished being created. I am still waiting for that email
| letting me know it is setup, and happily working from my real
| machine until it does become available.
|
| The moral of the story is sometimes the easiest way to thrawt
| management incompetence is to throw it reams of useless busy
| work that it will be festering away on while you can get real
| work done.
| ampdepolymerase wrote:
| They can keep it hot in memory similar to serverless. If
| everyone uses the same base copy of Windows, then they can
| easily fork from one parent copy. A copy on write network
| filesystem + some Windows Registry and Explorer tricks can take
| care of the remaining 20%.
| dijit wrote:
| > then they can easily fork from one parent copy.
|
| Ironically windows does not implement fork()
| marwis wrote:
| Think at hypervisor level. Most VM solutions support some
| form of memory deduplication. VM level cloning wouldn't be
| too far from that model IMO.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| AFAIK Windows kernel is advanced enough to implement fork
| if necessary. WSL 1 uses it.
| martin_henk wrote:
| Brought to you from the creators of Teams
| rbanffy wrote:
| And SharePoint!
| dvfjsdhgfv wrote:
| And Skype for Business.
| number6 wrote:
| ssh -x
| Cilvic wrote:
| I'm actually looking forward to this, making it more mainstream
| than RDP and better pricing?
|
| Buying my last laptop I'm torn between gaming = GPU vs. noise &
| form factor = on the go vs. CPU/RAM for local developing/PowerBI.
| For gaming the future looks god with streaming.
|
| Also I'd prefer to keep business and private machine apart, but
| still have them both always with me, no matter the device.
| mrtweetyhack wrote:
| haha, that's a security nightmare
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