[HN Gopher] GM reveals more technical details of its Ultium batt...
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GM reveals more technical details of its Ultium battery packs
Author : Element_
Score : 53 points
Date : 2021-07-14 14:10 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (chargedevs.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (chargedevs.com)
| CyanLite2 wrote:
| Wanted: an EV with the looks of the Mach-E, performance of the
| Kia EV6-GT, the software of Tesla, the battery of GM, safety of
| the LIDAR-equipped Volvo XC90, and the warranty of a Hyundai. All
| for less than $45,000 with a $7500 federal tax credit.
| Animats wrote:
| This is supposedly a safer battery chemistry than lithium-ion,
| with better behavior in fires and punctures. Although it would be
| good to hear from NFPA and UL on this. It's also apparently
| better behaved about being fully charged and discharged than
| lithium-ion. These are both good characteristics to have as
| electric vehicles start to dominate the market.
|
| Drone video of one GM battery factory under construction.[1]
| That's the one in Lordstown, OH. Building exterior is finished.
| Power substation finished. A/C cooling towers under construction.
| Next one is in Spring Hill, TN. GM doesn't make as much noise as
| Tesla about building large battery factories. They just build
| them.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/vbgzuy6usaE
| pedrocr wrote:
| According to the article these are lithium-ion. Everyone is
| tweaking the chemistries within that space. LFP already has
| most of those advantages but lower density. We're in for some
| fast paced improvement over the next 10 years.
| jsight wrote:
| I'm not sure that there were actually new details here? The
| ability to join the two packs in series for a higher voltage was
| well known for a while now.
|
| It will be interesting to see how they manage the claim of safe
| charging to 100%. Most other companies are doing that by adding a
| large buffer. It wouldn't surprise me if that is the case with GM
| as well.
| nolta wrote:
| Original article:
|
| https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-moto...
| sbierwagen wrote:
| >Tim Grewe, GM's Global Electrification and Battery Systems
| Director, told Car and Driver that the Ultium pack does not
| suffer capacity loss from excessive DC fast charging, so GM will
| not advise users to charge the pack to less than 100 percent.
|
| Translation: we can get higher spec cells now, so battery
| capacity will be over-rated. A "100 KWh" pack will be 120 KW+.
| When it says it's fully charged it's actually sitting at a nice
| conservative 80% SoC. You could fast charge it every day because
| the pack is so huge that 100 KW is a nice gentle 1C charge rate.
| You can push the warranty out further because you have more
| headroom for battery aging.
|
| Presumably when the car hits three or four years old it'll set a
| charge threshold at 80% and start warning you about fast
| charging. (Or maybe not? It would be in GM's interest to let you
| run it into the ground like a cellphone)
| fy20 wrote:
| > Tim Grewe, GM's Global Electrification and Battery Systems
| Director, told Car and Driver that the Ultium pack does not
| suffer capacity loss from excessive DC fast charging, so GM will
| not advise users to charge the pack to less than 100 percent.
|
| I'm guessing this means just means "100%" charge is not actually
| 100% of the battery. Most other EVs do this by a few % (even
| Tesla), but they also don't recommend charging to 100%. I guess
| GM will limit it even further.
| pkulak wrote:
| > The Hummer's pack will allow the top and bottom layers to be
| temporarily switched from a parallel to a series connection
|
| Bloody brilliant. I always wondered how much copper you need to
| step 120v all the way up to 800v for a car like the Taycan.
|
| Also, 200kwh? Where's my It's Happening gif?
| AYBABTME wrote:
| It doesn't go from 120 to 800V, it gets reduced from a higher
| voltage to 800.
| jsight wrote:
| I'm not sure what you mean. If you plug a Taycan into a 120V
| outlet, the onboard charger has to get from 120V to 800V.
|
| If you DCFC, it depends on the charger. I think EA will
| typically do 800V, but some have to go through an onboard
| DC->DC converter to get from 400V to 800V? I'm fuzzy on that
| last bit, though.
| mavhc wrote:
| Enough batteries to make 10% of GM cars electric?
|
| They're doing GWh vs their competition aiming at TWh
| wil421 wrote:
| I think GM sells a more cars in some years than Tesla's total
| US sales of all time. They sold 2.8 million US cars in 2019 so
| 10% would be similar to every Model S ever sold in the US.[1]
|
| [1] https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-model-s-sales-figures-
| us...
| mavhc wrote:
| True, but Tesla have sold over 1.7 million cars total, with
| yearly sales rising by about 50% per year
| gamblor956 wrote:
| It's much easier for a tiny competitor to scale by double
| digits, especially when said competitor only sells cars in
| a few countries. For GM to increase car sales by double
| digits would likely require the sudden disappearance of one
| of its major competitors like Toyota creating a huge void
| in the global market.
|
| For example: the Toyota Mirai, a very niche hydrogen car,
| saw 1000% YoY sales gains. The Chevy Bolt EV saw a 335% YoY
| increase in sales.
|
| Also, note that GM sold 50% more cars in the U.S. this past
| quarter alone as Tesla sold all of last year worldwide.
| Toyota edged GM by fewer than a 1000 cars in the U.S. Each
| of them has sold almost as many cars this year as Tesla has
| ever sold.
| mavhc wrote:
| Yet Tesla is planning to make 100x the batteries of these
| larger companies.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| GM is planning to make 750GHw worth of batteries at its
| domestic factories by the end of 2023, far in excess of
| what Tesla currently has announced.
|
| And that's just one competitor. VW and Ford are also
| making huge EV pushes (largely due to EU regulation), and
| will similarly need upwards of several hundred GHw worth
| of battery production annually.
| maxdo wrote:
| Yep, but the only difference is that tesla in those few
| markets start outselling other brands in certain
| categories and their annual volumes will count in
| millions next year. You can easy compare them to BMW or
| Audi. next year they will be companies with comparable
| volume. Somehow I don't see BMW or Audi growing that
| fast.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| Tesla's annual car sales is anticipated to exceed 1
| million (but not 2 million), so technically yes, they
| would be in the "millions."
|
| I also don't see BMW or Audi growing very fast; they're
| luxury brands and scale would actually harm their image.
| However, I do see GM, Ford, and VW scaling very quickly
| once they launch new EV models.
|
| Ford's F150 Lightning will handily outsell the Cybertruck
| once it's available. (And the F-series itself is the
| best-selling vehicle of all time in the U.S. [Edit: and
| second-best all-time worldwide, after the Corolla
| series].)
| paulmendoza wrote:
| Tesla is moving into heavy battery manufacturing. If
| there isn't car demand they can put those batteries into
| power walls and utility power packs or Semis. GM is just
| focused on cars.
|
| Tesla is targeting 200GWh+ of batteries in 2022 just from
| suppliers + their own 4680 production. But not all will
| go into cars.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| GM is targeting 750GWh+ of batteries by the end of 2023.
| Just from their own domestic battery factories.
| maxdo wrote:
| With current pace, and considering two major plants opening(
| Texas,Berlin), and one new line(Shanghai) , tesla will be at
| 800k cars this year, 1.1-1.5m next year. So by 2023 tesla
| could approach GM size of 2019. Considering this two
| companies compete on the same market, and tesla plans to
| enter affordable segment in 2023 with model 2... it's a big
| question where GM will be in 2023-2024
| wil421 wrote:
| If I look at GMs global sales for 2019 it would be 7.72
| million which is almost 800k.
|
| It will be interesting to see if the big global car
| companies will be able to beat Tesla on things like quality
| manufacturing, serviceability, and cost. Tesla is not
| appealing to me due to the premium cost combined with a
| cheap interior, non-serviceability ($1600 for eeprom from
| excessive logging!) and over reliance on software. Not to
| mention the $10k self driving vapor ware Elon pushes.
|
| Excited to see what GM, Ford, MB and BMW will offer in the
| coming years.
| maxdo wrote:
| Service is a very subjective topic :)
|
| I'm a model Y owner. I broke the charging port sensor
| with high-pressure washing. I opened an App, click
| service, the error was in the App already; I pressed on
| that error, App created a request. Service came at my
| home and fixed it. I paid 0 dollars for it. I spent 2
| mites creating request and 5 minutes to open and close
| the gate to service person. Will Ford come to my home?
| Good luck spending hours on the phone with a dealer that
| has no clue about electric cars at all. People pay the
| same price for Mach-E as I paid for my model Y except
| temporary federal credits.
|
| Cheap interior? I have the best infotainment system
| compares to any other brand, even if that car cost
| $100k+. I've got games, best-in class audio, video
| streaming and I'm using it a lot. I have not fragmented
| glass roof; every person sitting in my car is amazed by
| it. Even owners of far more expensive Mercedes etc.. The
| seat is one of the best I ever seat it; they don't
| outsource it as other brands and tesla invest a lot of
| time in ergonomics. The rest is just taste. I like
| minimalism. And it matches my preferences.
|
| And yeah, I call vapor ware when Nissan bundles satellite
| radio and tons of nonsense to have access to the app. Or
| navigation system in the past for few thousands dollars
| from any brand. Or when dealers charging several hundred
| dollars premium for the lost keys when I use my phone in
| tesla. Seriously you compare the ugly dealership
| experience of traditional brands to an optional offer of
| autopilot that will be soon available as a subscription?
| Or electic car that don't invest in charging network,
| unlike tesla, that has charging points in every stupid
| tourist destination I can imagine?
|
| I had false feedback from many people about car price
| also. If you look at the prices and compare head to
| head... Ford... compare cybertuck and F-150, like range,
| battery, motors, etc... especially premium $90k Ford with
| $75k CT, and you'll not be so confident. Or compare $32k
| Nissan leaf with overheating batteries compares to
| $37k-$39k Model 3... they not even in the same league.
| Nissan leaf was on the market for 10 years, but Tesla
| sold more model 3 as total Nissan leaf sales combined.
| And there is a reason for that, it's not only branding.
| You got service, electric charging network etc...
|
| Ford Mach-E is dollar to dollar matches Model Y. Current
| BMW offering among electric car is not even worth
| discussion. It's just junk. They announces something next
| year though. Don't get me wrong, they will sell a lot of
| cars, as entire industry will turn in electric as fast as
| they can produce cheap batteries.
|
| I hear a lot tesla is expensive, but there is nothing
| with comparable range and features on a market that is
| substantially cheaper. A year ago the statement was there
| is almost nothing on the market at all. Luckily now it's
| changing.
|
| Nobody offers you to buy $10k Autopilot, you can
| subscribe soon to it, for a fraction of that price if you
| WANT.
| tapoxi wrote:
| As someone in the market for a crossover SUV, I think the
| competitor isn't the Mach-E but the VW id.4.
|
| In my case the VW dealership and Tesla Service are both 5
| minutes from me. I'm leaning VW because of CarPlay and
| the rear windshield of the Model Y has visibility
| problems.
|
| I think the "cheap interior" refers to Tesla's sparse
| cabins and use of plastic. Playing games or watching
| videos on my infotainment system doesn't make much sense
| to me.
| wil421 wrote:
| A Model S interior is not a ~$100k interior should look
| like. Look at what MB, BMW, Porsche, Audi, and even
| Lincoln and Hyundai have. The interior feels cheap and
| utilitarian for the price. You do not have best in class
| speakers, MB and BMW have some crazy speaker offerings.
|
| The service is baked into the premium price you pay. Yes
| BMW and MB will come get your car and leave you a loaner.
|
| Nissan is in a death spiral and hasn't really done much
| to the leaf in 10 years.
|
| A don't wan a stupid screen in my car to play videos
| games or watch TV. I already have a TV, iPad, laptop, or
| phone. It's dangerous. I want a center screen above my
| steering wheel, steering controls that do a single
| function like cruise or music changes, or HUD so I can
| keep my eyes straight.
|
| Tesla's do not have changing stations everywhere and I
| wouldn't be able to charge it at my condo in the
| panhandle of Florida or the way there. I would have to
| buy a room at 5 or 6 hotels in the area just to use a
| charger that's better than a standard 120v outlet.
|
| Edit: I see they added one public supercharger that
| wouldn't be more than 45 minutes out of the way on my
| vacation route.
| jsight wrote:
| I think the non-servicability aspect is made out to be
| more critical than it is for MOST purposes. There were
| third party fixes for the storage issue, for example. And
| in general Tesla has one of the better online parts
| catalogs, and you can order replacement parts directly.
|
| The issue is more to do with a lack of service facilities
| that are ready and willing to deal with these new cars.
| Volume will change that more than any particular policy
| change.
|
| EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying there are zero issues.
| Tesla will not sell high voltage components. There are
| situations where this can be problematic.
| wil421 wrote:
| Ouch! I was going to do some comparisons with Telsa's
| online catalog vs other's I have used (Mopar for Jeeps)
| but I have to create a login. Mopar is definitely one of
| the better ones I have used. At least they are not like
| BMW who lack anything. realoem.com has always helped me
| out.
| MR4D wrote:
| It's only two plants, and the article only discusses the US.
|
| GM is probably going to build more plants to be collocates near
| their auto assembly sites.
| loufe wrote:
| It's got to start somewhere. Especially considering they're
| using what seems to be a somewhat novel packaging for their
| batteries, best to ease into it.
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