[HN Gopher] Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan
___________________________________________________________________
Carlos Ghosn: How I escaped Japan
Author : phpnode
Score : 176 points
Date : 2021-07-13 21:25 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.co.uk)
| google234123 wrote:
| Too bad for all the people that helped him escape who are being
| jailed now.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| I really don't understand that part to be honest, from the
| point of view of the two Americans. Given their part in the
| escape you'd think they'd be aware of Japan's terrifying
| justice system and of the situation with the extradition
| treaties. Why would you help someone escape all that if you
| have to go back to a country with an extradition treaty with
| Japan.
| bluedevil2k wrote:
| Money - maybe he promised them millions for their help.
| chihuahua wrote:
| I think they were paid about $1.3 million. To me, the
| amount is surprisingly low given how much money Ghosn has,
| and the risk and effort involved.
|
| Also I find it strange that the names of these 2 guys were
| known to everyone in the world immediately after Ghosn
| escaped.
| Google234 wrote:
| I don't think they thought they were at risk and weren't
| planning on returning to Japan. I would take 1.3 million
| in return for never visiting a foreign country again.
| noaccnt wrote:
| Why too bad? They obviously broke the law and got caught.
|
| Imagine a pair of spetznaz break Derek Chauvin out of the US
| and bring him to another country. They get caught.
|
| Too bad these foreign special forces got caught?
| Google234 wrote:
| The difference between what happened to Ghosn and them was
| what I was contrasting.
| noaccnt wrote:
| So you also believe that its too bad that Ghosn escaped
| trial and punishment? And that it's particularly nasty that
| the guys who engineered his escape ended up worse than the
| root criminal?
|
| If so, we agree. But that there are no consequences of
| breaking another country's sovereignty the way Ghosn and
| those American goons believe they're entitled to, is
| ridiculous. Actually, it's American exceptionalism.
| Tams80 wrote:
| Should have sorted out moving to a country that wouldn't
| extradite them in their deal with Ghosn then.
|
| Ghosn would have been desperate enough to provide it.
| Google234 wrote:
| Coming back to the US was dumb, the Taylor's apparently had a
| home in Lebanon.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| I Googled pretty hard for a source on this, and I could not
| find anything. Can you share a source?
| csomar wrote:
| With $1.3 million, they can settle in lots of third-world
| countries until this whole saga clears. It was a
| miscalculation on their part.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Ya exactly. What is his response to them being in jail instead
| of him? What a horrible thing to do to someone.
| microtherion wrote:
| _Maybe_ he 's working behind the scenes to free them, but in
| the interview, he did not seem overly concerned about their
| fate.
| Google234 wrote:
| Not much he can do.
| lr1970 wrote:
| All luggage is supposed to undergo a security check in an X-ray
| machine. This is true for private jets as well. I am curious how
| it played out in this particular case. Did it go through an X-ray
| machine or not? If yes, how did they mistook a human for a
| musical instrument?
| laurieg wrote:
| The box was chosen to be too large to fit in the x-ray machine.
| The checks were lax for private jets. I assume this loophole is
| already closed.
| bogomipz wrote:
| I'm guessing this was just a calculated risk. From last year's
| Vanity Fair piece:
|
| "Nothing got x-rayed, not even our backpacks"[1]
|
| I have to believe someone involved had observed similar
| behavior at this location prior to this escape operation.
|
| [1] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/07/how-carlos-ghosn-
| esc...
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| >Until then, he remains a once-big-fish in a small pond, living
| in exile and under armed guard in Beirut for the foreseeable
| future.
|
| How secure is he in Beruit? If Japan really wanted him badly, I
| would guess he would be pretty easy for Israeli Mossad to pick
| up.
| wk_end wrote:
| It's pretty easy for Mossad to pick up whoever they want, but
| he's accused of white-collar crime, not matters of national
| security; I'd be surprised if Israel (or any other country)
| would be willing to deploy their intelligence services and
| violate another nation's sovereignty over it. Is that something
| they've ever done?
| atatatat wrote:
| Why would _you_ hear about it...?
| yborg wrote:
| Lebanon is an economic disaster area right now, so while this
| won't directly affect the fabulously wealthy Ghosn, he's
| ironically sort of imprisoned in a failing state.
| emptyparadise wrote:
| I'd take that over being in a prison cell.
| 55555 wrote:
| He's Lebanese. It's one of his homes.
| foogazi wrote:
| How does this make Lebanon less of an economic disaster
| area?
| Tams80 wrote:
| Wtf would Mossad get involved, and if they did why would they
| send him to Japan.
|
| If he were funding Hezbollah (other than through paying taxes
| in Lebanon), they'd have gotten him anyway by now.
| anonu wrote:
| Taxes dont go to fund Hezbollah in Lebanon. For one simple
| reason. Taxes are never collected. If they were the country
| wouldn't be in a financial crisis.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > How secure is he in Beruit? If Japan really wanted him badly,
| I would guess he would be pretty easy for Israeli Mossad to
| pick up.
|
| The Mossad only does what's in the national interest of Israel,
| they are not bounty hunters for hire.
|
| If Japan really wants Ghosn they will either have to send their
| own team with all the headaches that entails and/or they will
| need to negotiate with the various groups currently in control
| of Lebanon... and given they're falling apart, failing to
| secure food, medicine and fuel for electricity generation, a
| rich multi-millionaire with a private security force isn't
| exactly at the top of their priority list.
| Danieru wrote:
| Not a priority for justice, but Ghosn is instead prime
| material for a house trade. Foreign loans in exchange for an
| extradition treaty, etc. It might not happen now, but Ghosn
| needs it not to happen for the rest of his natural life.
| Japan only needs one chance. Ghosn needs an unstable country
| to stay together and be not-desperate for a long time.
| sova wrote:
| So amazing. Haha. Wow. Very ballsy move but given the alternative
| outcome probably the nicest outcome possible. Serves as a nice
| real-world dramatic thriller of sorts. It worked. And it'll
| probably be the only time this ever works. But still, a great use
| of that one time.
|
| I find it really interesting that Ghosn (I'm just gonna call him
| "Ghost," k) was head of two other gigantic car monoliths and
| actually reduced Nissan's expenditures. Given Japan's "employed
| for life" culture that still pervades a great deal of companies,
| I wonder if that rubbed people the wrong way. Pure speculation, I
| don't know what cuts were made. What I find really impressive is
| that he can run a car company so well that he's recruited by
| other companies to take the reins for a while. Talent that can
| migrate among organizations and boost them all a little bit. I
| suppose what works at one will probably work at another.
|
| To get to that role, I wonder if he started in an executive space
| or rode a small car-related company up to the stratosphere and
| then moved laterally, or what.
|
| Complimentary joke: He is one of the quietest musical instruments
| around.
| indigodaddy wrote:
| " Documentary series Storyville details his extraordinary rise
| and sudden fall in Carlos Ghosn: The Last Flight which will be
| shown on BBC 4 on Wednesday 14 July."
|
| ^ Hoping this doc will make its way to American television..
| maybe PBS/Frontline?
| Simulacra wrote:
| You can view BBC programing by setting up Tor to go through the
| U.K.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| I had no idea this was even possible. Can you choose the
| physical location of your exit nodes?
| liberalasshats wrote:
| Thats sound advice not sure why you get downvoted, a niche
| vpn would probably also work, or you can can torrent it
| jwdunne wrote:
| Not so sound when we Brits have to pay a license fee by law
| for owning a TV that can tune in to any public channel just
| to fund the BBC!
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| As a non-British person living outside the United
| Kingdom, I also find it frustrating that I cannot pay to
| watch some things on the Beeb! (Steve McQueen - Small
| Axe!)
| _0ffh wrote:
| Sounds downright fair in comparison to Germany, where you
| have to pay a TV license fee for having a home, no TV set
| required.
| lkramer wrote:
| The whole story is a bit hard to untangle, but I wouldn't be
| surprised if both that he literally saved Nissan and funneled
| money off to personal projects is true. He strikes me as the type
| of executive who believe he can do what he wants as long as he
| shows result.
|
| It was rumoured that the house he lives in in Beirut actually
| belongs to Nissan and they've been trying to get him kicked out,
| but with little success.
| ajcp wrote:
| It belongs to Nissan in that Nissan alleges Ghosn bought the
| place with money he stole from them.
|
| I used to live just down the street from the place. Lovely
| neighborhood.
| causality0 wrote:
| Nissan may have been saved, but it came at the cost of their
| reputation. According to my auto mechanic friends Nissan once
| ranked up there with Toyota and Honda for reliability, but
| their quality plummeted after the Renault deal.
| tmh88j wrote:
| > According to my auto mechanic friends Nissan once ranked up
| there with Toyota and Honda for reliability, but their
| quality plummeted after the Renault deal.
|
| Nissan went to crap when they took a controlling stake in
| JATCO and started using those god awful CVT's in everything,
| and then stopped putting any effort into their sports cars to
| keep them competitive enough to lure enthusiasts to their
| brand. I owned a GT-R for several years and it was a great
| car, but it's going on 13 years of the same generation and
| the 370z is hardly any different from the 350z that first
| came out in 2002. I could rant for hours, I used to love
| Nissan. I'm hoping the 400z will turn things around for them
| in the eyes of enthusiasts if it's priced reasonably.
| oscb wrote:
| Exactly this! Ghosn saved Nissan by focusing on optimizing
| and reducing costs and while that must've helped a lot in
| the short/medium term it came at a cost in the long term.
| It's as if Nissan had gotten stuck in the last decade of
| tech for cars. They went from competing with Porsche and
| having popular electric cars to basically being an
| afterthought in the market.
| fomine3 wrote:
| To be fair R35 GT-R was Ghosn's project.
| economusty wrote:
| Competing with Porsche? Can you expound on that?
| tmh88j wrote:
| The R35 GT-R took down everything from Ferraris to
| Porsches and Lamborghinis when it first came out, both in
| straight line speed and handling on the track.
|
| Results at 3m10s
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDP7Pty8Qnw&t=130s
|
| Probably a bit of acting, but Jeremy Clarkson had to be
| carted off the track while driving one because he injured
| his neck on a particularly tight corner.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXFSVoVqhYw
| Nemrod67 wrote:
| Let me share a gem:
|
| https://youtu.be/9ElvaHArai4
|
| do activate the subtitles!
|
| Best MOTORing January 2011. ""Super Sports Battle in
| Sugo""
|
| Cars: NISSAN GT-R, MB SLS AMG, FERRARI 430 SD, PORSCHE
| 911Turbo S, AUDI R8 5.2
|
| Drivers:Keiichi ""DK"" Tsuchiya Naomi Hattori, Takayuki
| Kinoshita, Seiji Ara, Tetsuya Tanaka
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| And ten years later a 130 grand car (would that be the
| cheapest in the field back in 2010? Was the corvette or
| lotus the cheapest in that clip?) would eviscerate them
| by... two seconds?
| ericbarrett wrote:
| Even setting aside reliability, the Nissan CVT is so awful
| to drive. The power delivery in every car I drove with one
| (always a rental) is incredibly mushy and the constant-RPM
| engine drone grates like a fly buzz.
| tmh88j wrote:
| Yea, they are absolutely the worst. They gave a Murano
| loaner while my GT-R was getting its transmission
| replaced and that piece of junk sat in my driveway and
| didn't move for a month. High performance, low
| performance, they offer some terrible transmissions
| across their entire lineup! As much as I want to defend
| the GR6 because it is phenomenal when it works and the
| stock housing can take an insane amount of power compared
| to other DCT's, mine died after only 10k miles and it was
| a 2015 model, which was supposed to be a non-issue after
| like 2011 from the launch control updates.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Yes, CVTs are crap. Every time I consider purchasing a car
| (used or new) I pass over the CVT offerings -- which
| include most (all?) of Nissan's line up.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| I won't disagree tha CVTs are crap, but they were an
| attempt for better gas mileage / carbon emissions
| reduction.
|
| I have heard they are improving, but by the time they
| figure them out the ICE car will probably be utterly
| obsolete.
| tomcam wrote:
| I don't know much about cars, but I understood Renault's
| quality reputation enough to understand the acquisition was a
| disaster from the get-go. So I'm not sure I can agree with your
| premises.
| agumonkey wrote:
| While trying to understand how Renault managed to acquire so
| much of Nissan I was reminded that Nissan was nearly bankrupt
| in 1999, there's even a springer document about this period h
| ttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/..
| .
| touristtam wrote:
| sorry but is the BBC late to the party? I have seen articles
| about this as early as dec 2019.
| supernova87a wrote:
| Well, here is what I'm curious about. Which of these conditions
| is valid justification for violating house arrest and fleeing a
| jurisdiction that you are being prosecuted in?
|
| -- You believe the charges or prosecution is being unfairly
| conducted
|
| -- You believe you are innocent
|
| -- You believe public opinion is on your side
|
| -- You have a more favorable jurisdiction you can flee to
|
| Is it up to you to decide that you're in the right, and if you
| have resources, should escape the legal system?
|
| I'm sure many people feel these points when they're being
| prosecuted. Are they to decide? Or is it just that he's rich and
| had the means to act on these opinions?
| lmm wrote:
| That's like asking when violent revolution is justified. There
| is certainly a point where it's legitimate, but the people
| undertaking it have a rather biased perspective.
|
| People at every level do what they can to evade justice
| systems, and of course the richer you are the more dramatic
| that will be. IMO it's more relevant for us to judge for
| ourselves whether he was right or not. Did he flee a system
| that we consider fair and reasonable, or one that's arbitrary
| and unjust?
| Simulacra wrote:
| The more I learned about the Japanese judicial system, the more I
| found myself cheering for this guy. The system seemed like it was
| designed as a can't-lose process for the prosecutors, and if
| arrested, you're guilty until proven innocent. I'm more sad that
| the guys who helped him are in hot water.
| new299 wrote:
| I'd be interested in sources on this...
| miles wrote:
| Not OP, but happy to oblige:
|
| Japan's notoriously ruthless criminal justice system is
| getting a face lift https://qz.com/693437/japans-notoriously-
| ruthless-criminal-j...
|
| A legal review of why Japan high conviction rate is bad
| https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/legal-review-why-japan-
| high-c...
| new299 wrote:
| The first article has a couple of anecdotes, and a
| statement that there are reforms in progress.
|
| The second just states "little to do with the assumption
| that prosecutors only choose cases they are confident they
| can win" but doesn't do anything to back up that claim with
| data. It just discusses aspects of the law that are
| different in Japan/the US.
|
| Would be more interesting to refute the academic work on
| this:
|
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/468111
|
| This article posted elsewhere also seems interesting:
|
| https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-
| japans-99-c...
|
| So, does anyone have anything a bit more detailed and
| systematic than the above? Also curious about treatment in
| Japanese prisons as compared to the US/elsewhere.
| dwpdwpdwpdwpdwp wrote:
| Vanity Fair did a compelling article about this as well, which
| focused in more detail on the role of former green beret Michael
| Taylor in planning the escape.
|
| https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/07/how-carlos-ghosn-esc...
| CRConrad wrote:
| How come this fucker gets to not only brag about evading justice,
| in stead of being rightly vilified for it, but is even given a
| platform to brag from by the most prestigious of media
| corporations?!?
|
| Why hasn't whatever country he's in -- Britain? -- clapped him in
| irons and extradited him the hell back to Japan? Are they even
| _officially_ condoning criminals escaping justice as long as they
| 're rich, these days? (Or is Ghosn giving interviews from some
| closet in the embassy of a third-world country where he's holed
| up, as seems traditional for fugitives on the lam in Britain
| nowadays?)
| fotta wrote:
| > Lebanon does not have an extradition treaty with Japan so Mr
| Ghosn has been allowed to remain there.
| CRConrad wrote:
| Noticed that on my second read; didn't make it all the way
| through on the first.
|
| Yeah, so he didn't have to go to the _embassy._
| [deleted]
| Decker87 wrote:
| You clearly did not read the article and know nothing of the
| situation.
| Simulacra wrote:
| Gentle reminder that it's against the rules to accuse someone
| of not reading the article. Please see here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| erdos4d wrote:
| Dude, you sound too stupid to be here, go back to reddit.
| sleepytimetea wrote:
| So, the justice system in Japan enforces additional restrictions
| after a person is out on bail ?
|
| He couldn't meet his wife seems like an unreasonable condition
| for someone out on bail. Also, is the justice system in Japan so
| backed up that he would have to wait years for it go to trial ?
| namelessoracle wrote:
| If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look
| into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you
| confess and apologize. They will literally lie to you and tell
| you it will all go away if you sign the confession paperwork.
| You dont get a lawyer while they do this, and they get to keep
| you for quite a bit of time before you get a lawyer.
|
| They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who
| you have to prove your innocence too. The judges their dont
| like you making them go to trial, so good luck proving your
| case, after all you should have confessed already.
|
| Also Japanese conditions in their detention systems makes the
| American system look down right palatial. The whole system is
| designed to punish even moreso than the American system.
| noaccnt wrote:
| ":They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges
| who you have to prove your innocence too. "
|
| Didn't America set up their system after the peace treaty?
| They literally wrote the constitution, no?
| eightails wrote:
| > They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges
| who you have to prove your innocence too.
|
| Inquisitorial systems are pretty common among civil law
| countries e.g. much of Europe, and not intrinsically better
| or worse than the adversarial system usually seen in common
| law countries -- indeed they are sometimes used by the latter
| for specific purposes like summary offences and coronial
| inquests.
| [deleted]
| anonAndOn wrote:
| Previously on HN: Prison in Japan (2017) (gaijinass.com)
|
| https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-
| prison-...
| ohhelloxoxo wrote:
| Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system,
| but scale seems relevant here.
|
| Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655
| incarcerated per 100k population [2]
|
| [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2]
| https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america
| creddit wrote:
| What's the murder rate per country? What's the rate of
| assault? Et cetera, et cetera
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in
| the US?
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| I don't know why the downvotes, this is the correct
| perspective. You need to take the base rate of
| criminality into account, and comparing Japanese in Japan
| to Japanese in America isn't unreasonable.
|
| You could also look at the rate of crimes per capita in
| each country. For instance, murders per capita: 4.96 in
| the U.S. vs 0.26 in Japan [0]. If we take this to
| represent base-rate criminality in that population, then
| we have a 19:1 US:Japan murder ratio, with only a 16:1
| US: Japan incarceration ratio. Japan incarcerates more
| per unit murder.
|
| Of course this is a toy model, it's all a big feedback
| loop, etc., but I hope it serves to illustrate the point.
|
| 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_int
| ention...
| plumthreads wrote:
| You're claiming Japanese in America are representative of
| Japanese in Japan which is not the case. It's straight up
| racist too.
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| I'm making the point that the base rate of criminality
| needs to be taken into account if you want to compare
| incarceration rates. For many different reasons people in
| one society might commit more crime than people in
| another society.
|
| Though I do not use the example myself, preferring the
| murder rate example, the parent's suggestion is a
| reasonable way to control for this inter-society
| difference. I would bet that Japanese in the U.S. evince
| rates of criminality more similar to those of Japanese in
| Japan than to the rest of American society. It's an
| empirical question; whether merely asking the question is
| racist or not given your particular sentiments about
| what's racist is beside the point.
| alksjdalkj wrote:
| > I would bet that Japanese in the U.S. evince rates of
| criminality more similar to those of Japanese in Japan
| than to the rest of American society
|
| What makes you believe that? If true, what might cause
| that to be the case?
| Google234 wrote:
| I think most people know that Asians in the US commit
| less crime than other races. As for why, there are
| probably cultural reasons.
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| I've realized we're probably confused about whether we're
| talking about Japanese in America vs. Japanese-Americans.
| I was talking about Japanese in America (the article is
| about a foreigner in Japan), but I'd make roughly the
| same claims in either case. Empirically, I would bet that
| both Japanese in America and Japanese-Americans both show
| rates of criminality more similar to Japan's than to the
| remainder of the U.S. population's. In the case of
| Japanese-Americans, I'd bet it's higher than Japan's. I
| haven't looked any numbers up or attempted to figure it
| out in detail.
|
| As for why, there are a few reasons. One interesting one
| is selection effects (immigrants to a new country are not
| a random sample of the old country's population). There
| is culture, of course, probably the biggest factor, as
| well as other inheritances (material goods / wealth,
| genes, disease burden...).
| staticman2 wrote:
| Given this logic if America had a policy of throwing
| everyone with blond hair in jail for "hair crimes" you
| would conclude it is a fairer system than Japan's if
| Japanese-Americans had a lower incarceration rate than
| Japanese people in Japan.
|
| That's some heroic effort in defense of America's high
| incarceration rate.
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| ...I didn't make any claims at all about fairness. What?
| staticman2 wrote:
| Further up on this thread someone wrote "If you ever
| thought the American justice system is bad...".
|
| Someone else wrote wrote " Not trying to handwave away
| issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant
| here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA:
| 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2]"
|
| So I read your post in that context. The conversation
| seemed to me to be about whether the American or Japanese
| justice system is "bad". Fairness would seem to be an
| aspect of "good" or "bad"... if you weren't trying to
| argue the American justice system was "good" I've lost
| the context of what you were trying to say.
| forty wrote:
| I think listing genes is probably crossing the line. It's
| not like there is a gene for crime that some category of
| people would have more or less...
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| I'm genuinely curious to know how you think about that
| line. What is the transgression here in your mind? Merely
| mentioning that genes affect behavior is not allowed
| (even though it's true, or maybe it doesn't matter if
| it's true), or you actually believe the claim "genes
| affect behavior within the human species" is false?
|
| I agree with you that we can't tell from a single gene
| whether someone is likely to be a criminal or not. I'd
| like you to consider this example, where hopefully I only
| use premises you already believe:
|
| Some people are predisposed to becoming addicted to
| drugs. We can make better-than-chance bets about who
| these people are based on their genomes. We also know
| that people who are addicted to drugs are more likely to
| be on the wrong side of the law (and, sadly, are often by
| definition on the wrong side of the law). So, we conclude
| that, given someone's genome, we can make better-than-
| chance bets about that person's likelihood of being on
| the wrong side of the law.
|
| It's a simplistic example, but hopefully that helps get
| the idea across. Doing this sort of thing isn't super
| practical right now, but it will be soon! [oh boy.]
| bpodgursky wrote:
| Actually the OP asked the question. By assuming a
| particular answer, you are providing the racism.
| user-the-name wrote:
| No, it is the question that is racist. The assumption
| that because of your ethnicity, you would have some kind
| of specific level of criminality. That is extremely
| racist.
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| You're assuming a causal relationship when the claim is
| correlational. The claim is _not_ that _because_ of a
| person 's ethnicity that person will commit crimes at a
| certain rate, the claim is that you can make a good guess
| about criminality based on ethnicity. That is to say,
| there is a correlation. Which is unambiguously true--just
| look up the numbers. Only takes a moment.
|
| In either case, whether it's racist or not is irrelevant
| to the issue at hand.
| user-the-name wrote:
| > the claim is that you can make a good guess about
| criminality based on ethnicity
|
| Yes. That is the claim that is racist.
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| It is empirically true. It is, of course, possible for
| things to be both true and racist, for some definition of
| racist.
| user-the-name wrote:
| The fact that you just stop the train of thought there is
| the racist part.
| mattficke wrote:
| > You need to take the base rate of criminality into
| account
|
| So is this the kind of thing you measure with calipers,
| or...
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| ...there are large academic fields where people spend
| entire careers doing exactly this? The statistics are not
| hard to come by.
| Phrodo_00 wrote:
| How is this relevant to anything
| noaccnt wrote:
| The implication of pointing out the US' high
| incarceration rate is that the US justice system and
| society are particularly malevolent.
|
| This point was used to defend Japan's justice system as
| being far more benign than the US.
|
| However, Japan's justice system may in fact be far more
| unforgiving that the US' if Americans are, in general,
| more likely to commit crime. Which is perfectly fair
| point to make (although inconclusive for various
| reasons).
|
| If (for whatever reason) Americans are more likely to
| commit more crimes, they are, all else being equal, more
| likely to be in jail.
|
| Of course many things can be true at the same time. Japan
| can have a brutal justice system and have a very docile,
| law abiding population. Maybe the brutality caused them
| to be docile. Or, America can have an abusive justice
| system, and a population that needs to be more
| incarcerated than others.
|
| Either way, the criminality of the Japanese is a relevant
| factor if America's incarceration rate is made relevant
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Weren't we comparing the rate of incarceration of the
| Japanese in Japan vs the US?
| economusty wrote:
| That is an interesting way to slice it.
| anthk wrote:
| These are Americans, not Japanese.
| saghm wrote:
| Japanese Americans are a group that has a sizable
| population of people who have lived their entire lives in
| the US. If you think that they would be more likely to
| behave similarly to people who have spent their whole
| lives in Japan, the burden of proof is on you, because
| that certainly is not a mainstream view.
| NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
| 1) Confusion between Japanese in America and Japanese-
| Americans
|
| 2) "More likely to behave similarly" is a considerably
| wider net than just crime rates
|
| 3) I think the mainstream view is that East Asians of all
| stripes commit considerably less crime than average. It's
| certainly true of violent crime, which is something I've
| looked in to.
| frumper wrote:
| That might even show that over time the Japanese system
| does a better job deterring crime
| Asooka wrote:
| The way I've heard it, they don't bother arresting people
| who are not almost definitely guilty. After all, if
| someone is proven innocent, that's a black mark on the
| judge, the prosecution and the entire police department.
| haecceity wrote:
| That makes sense the market is more competitive in USA so
| they provide better service to the customers.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| We can agree they're both fucked up in their own specific
| ways, along with many other systems.
|
| We can hold hands at the bottom of the pit, no need for a
| winner.
|
| > litteraly lie to you
|
| BTW in a lot of countries they are basically immune to
| perjury, so this is just par for course
| temp8964 wrote:
| There are hundreds of countries on this planet. Are you
| sure U.S. and JP are at the bottom?
| makeitdouble wrote:
| I agree it was a stupid thing to say...sorry
| laurieg wrote:
| Even if you have the mental strength to resist interrogation
| and not make a false confession, it might be in your interest
| to confess to speed things up.
|
| If you no-showed at work for 3 weeks, would you lose your
| job? But if you confess, you could be out today.
|
| Here is an account of being arrested and detained in
| Japan[1]. It's worth a read, especially given the ending.
|
| [1] https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-
| videotap...
| Clewza313 wrote:
| So she was falsely accused, detained for a week, and
| released with apparently no consequences? That's not great,
| but it's hardly a uniquely Japanese horror story either.
|
| For comparison, back in the Land of the Free, here's a kid
| in New York who was jailed for _three years_ on Rikers
| Island for a similar false accusation of theft:
|
| https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-
| law
| Asooka wrote:
| Yes, but that case is egregious by American standards,
| while the woman's case is everyday occurrence in Japan.
| yccs27 wrote:
| I mean, the whole argument is based on two anecdotes,
| which show that both systems can be excessively unfair.
| We'd need at least some numbers to talk about "everyday
| occurrences" or not.
| bzbarsky wrote:
| _Is_ that case egregious by American standards?
|
| The 3 years might be (though I'm not convinced for some
| jurisdictions), but the overall shape of the case is, I
| think, depressingly common in the US...
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _He couldn 't meet his wife seems like an unreasonable
| condition for someone out on bail_
|
| It's also not ridiculous? She isn't his lawyer. He's accused of
| a multibillion dollar fraud. And he was clearly a flight risk,
| one she personally amplified.
| djrogers wrote:
| > She isn't his lawyer. He's accused of a multibillion dollar
| fraud. And he was clearly a flight risk, one she personally
| amplified.
|
| A) He was not in prison at the time B) Even incarcerated
| prisoners in most countries are allowed visits from their
| family C) It appears that keeping them apart is what actually
| amplified his flight risk, not letting them meet.
| lmm wrote:
| How would being able to meet his wife have amplified his
| flight risk? Indeed he said the prospect of another year
| being kept apart from her (while still not getting a trial or
| even being charged) was his reason for absconding.
| jumelles wrote:
| Japan's conviction rate is above 99%. If you're arrested you
| can be held for up to 23 days without access to a lawyer.
| Japan's justice system is far from perfect.
| lmm wrote:
| > Japan's conviction rate is above 99%.
|
| Because Japan doesn't have a plea bargain system. That 99%
| figure is very similar to the conviction+plea bargain rate in
| e.g. the US.
| CrazyStat wrote:
| US is somewhere around 90%. That's not that close to 99%.
|
| Plea bargains are included in conviction counts.
| twjpdetention wrote:
| This is NOT true.
|
| You can get detained without any solid proof on anything for
| 23 days, but immediately upon arrest you will get put in
| contact with a lawyer if you have one, or can request the 'on
| duty lawyer'.
|
| If you don't have a lawyer, you get assigned a 'public
| attorney', but even the public attorneys aren't as bad as in
| the US. They are just normal lawyers that are required by law
| to ALSO take cases for people as 'public attorneys', so they
| are usually very good.
|
| During detainment you can request contact to your lawyer at
| any moment outside of the regular lawyer visits all few days.
|
| Source: I went through this. Throwaway for obvious reasons.
| bogomipz wrote:
| >"Japan's conviction rate is above 99%."
|
| Although this figure is is regularly sited in the context of
| Ghosn's decision to flee the country this statistic is
| misleading since in Japan this figure counts cases where the
| defendant pleads guilty. So this 99% figure applies to all
| prosecuted cases not just contested cases. If the US were to
| use the same calculation the conviction rate would be about
| the same. I believe it was Ghosn's team who first referenced
| this statistic in the wake of his escape and it was something
| of a stroke of PR genius as it seems to find its way into
| nearly all coverage of Ghosn's escape. And these references
| are seemingly always without a comparative context. The
| following is a good read on this statistic:
|
| https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-
| japans-99-c...
| Tams80 wrote:
| That's because the prosecution only go for cases they are
| very certain about. That alone is bad, but on top of that
| it breeds a culture of them 'always being right and how
| dare you question us'.
|
| Sorry, but it's a sign of a justice system very out of
| whack and not something to defend.
|
| People are only okay with it because most people don't have
| any interaction with law enforcement, let alone the justice
| system.
| bogomipz wrote:
| >"Sorry, but it's a sign of a justice system very out of
| whack and not something to defend."
|
| I was in no way defending that system at all. I was just
| pointing out that the 99% statistic is constantly thrown
| about in Ghosn discussions without ever mentioning what
| the conviction percentage is anywhere else. And if you
| use the US as a a standard of comparison then that
| statistic is actually quite high as well. And if use the
| same calculation as Japan then the US is also above 99%.
|
| If someone says "the life expectancy for women in my
| country is 88", then without comparing that to somewhere
| else perhaps your own country then you don't really know
| if you should consider 88 high or low or normal. Anyway
| the link I provided discusses comparative justice systems
| and why this is, including your first point.
| bzbarsky wrote:
| I would love a citation on where you are getting "above
| 99%" for the US.
|
| What I managed to find easily just now in https://www.jus
| tice.gov/usao/reading_room/reports/asr2012/12... page 9
| has: "Of the 87,709 defendants terminated during Fiscal
| Year 2012, 80,963, or 93 percent, either pled guilty or
| were found guilty."
|
| So quite high, but not anything like over 99%.
|
| This is federal cases, though, so maybe state cases have
| higher enough volume and conviction rates to make the
| overall number over 99%? Again, I would love to see hard
| data.
| bogomipz wrote:
| There's a citation linked in my GP comment above.
| shkkmo wrote:
| > Japan's often-cited conviction rate of over 99 percent
| is a percentage of all prosecuted cases, not just
| contested cases. It is eye-catching, but misleading,
| since it counts as convictions those cases in which
| defendants pleaded guilty. If the U.S. conviction rate
| were calculated in a similar manner it would also exceed
| 99 percent since so few cases are contested at trial (in
| FY 2018 only 320 of the total number of 79,704 federal
| defendants were acquitted at trial).[0]
|
| [0] https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-
| japans-99-c...
|
| Edit: looking at your linked PDF I think the above quote
| is missing the thousands of misdemeanors dismissed by
| judges. This just goes the show the difficulty of
| comparing legal systems using a single number from each.
| laurieg wrote:
| The 99% conviction rate number that is mentioned can be
| misleading. This article[1] details how prosecutors drop
| cases and only bring 'airtight' cases before a judge.
|
| However, Carlos Ghosn's case was not simple some street
| crime uncovered by local cops, it was investigated by the
| special investigation section of the Tokyo prosecutors
| office. Cases brought by them are far less likely to be
| dropped. The defendant more or less has to prove their
| innocence.
|
| The power of prosecutors in the current system is clearly
| out of balance, but it doesn't seem to show signs of
| correcting anytime soon.
|
| [1]https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-
| the-c...
| bogomipz wrote:
| Thanks for the link. It is a very curious situation where
| a judge would fear a prosecutor. That does suggest a
| power imbalance. I feel your link also supports the point
| I was making though and the main difference between Japan
| and the US is that US makes heavy uses of plea bargains
| vs Japan's tendency to only ever bring cases they feel
| have a high probability of a successful conviction.
| MegaButts wrote:
| How do you plead guilty and not get convicted? I'm not
| arguing - I genuinely don't understand.
| bogomipz wrote:
| Pleading guilty means you yourself admit your guilt(often
| in exchange for some concession such as a reduced crime
| or reduced sentence.) This in contrast to a judge or jury
| finding you guilty. The latter is considered a
| "contested" case. Contested cases are what the US uses
| for the convictions rate percentage. The vast majority of
| federal criminal cases in the US are not contested and do
| not go to trial, despite what TV courtroom drama would
| have you believe. If you plead guilty, a conviction will
| still be entered I was just pointing out the procedural
| differences and how they are counted.
| Phrodo_00 wrote:
| It includes cases where they plead guilty, it's not made
| from just them.
| euske wrote:
| > So, the justice system in Japan enforces additional
| restrictions after a person is out on bail ?
|
| Only when there's a risk of the suspect colluding with others
| and concealing the evidence.
|
| IANAL, but I read that there were good reasons that the
| prosecution believes he does it. But this system is criticized
| today as it gives too much power to the prosecutors.
|
| I think the biggest problem is, as you mentioned, the slowness
| and bureaucracy of Japan's justice system, which I guess is
| still mostly paper-based. If it would take only a couple of
| weeks, he might have not done it. Everything is so slow to
| change here, and it's not just the justice system. I feel that
| Japan's inflexibility is slowly consuming the country.
| csomar wrote:
| I think most people missed the most important part of the story
|
| > The large box carrying Ghosn was never x-rayed or checked by
| customs officials, because it was too big to fit inside the x-ray
| machine
|
| The security theater we have to go through in the airport is just
| that: a pathetic security theater. You have a large box, that's
| definitively something that you gotta check. If you can't x-ray
| it, then at least open it?
| dehrmann wrote:
| You're conflating the role of TSA (or Japan's equivalent) with
| customs. The security risk of taking an uninspected box on a
| private jet is pretty low, and private jets routinely have
| fewer security checks. On the customs side, they're usually
| less concerned with someone smuggling something out of the
| country than smuggling something in. About the only thing they
| would have cared about leaving the country like that on a
| private jet _is_ Carlos Ghosn.
| csomar wrote:
| I don't think you could be right. There are lots of things
| that could be smuggled out of a country at all times:
| Precious metals, precious art and historical artifacts, Money
| and Drugs, etc...
|
| A country does care about what is coming out of its
| territory. If you have a high incidence of drugs coming out
| of Japan, the country will be flagged by the other countries.
| This makes shipping both expensive and difficult.
|
| > The security risk of taking an uninspected box on a private
| jet is pretty low, and private jets routinely have fewer
| security checks.
|
| I don't have the stats, but I'd argue that on a % basis, it's
| less likely that a single traveler is carrying something
| illegal than a private jet owner. I think the reason private
| jet owner do not get "scanned" is their status. That would
| annoy these persons and Japan (and most countries) do not
| want to annoy them.
| domains808 wrote:
| Never forget the bullies and what they put Uzi Nissan through
| (Nissan.com), he still kept the domain. Never buy a Nissan.
| Clewza313 wrote:
| Tangentially, here's a fascinating hour-long documentary (in
| French, but subtitled) on what prison in Japan is like:
|
| https://youtu.be/BJp9nKaO7c4
|
| Bear in mind that this was filmed with the cooperation of the
| authorities, there are plenty of stories about abuses beyond what
| is shown.
| y-c-o-m-b wrote:
| > in a country which has a 99.4% conviction rate.
|
| Brutal. Either they're really good at building the necessary
| evidence or they're just ruthless when it comes to criminal
| justice. Based on the other comments in this thread, it seems the
| latter. It's interesting to me how a society that prides itself
| on honor can act so dishonorably when it comes to human rights.
| This applies to their work ethics as well. They have the most
| fascinating culture in my opinion, but the warts are _really_
| ugly
| goatsi wrote:
| >Either they're really good at building the necessary evidence
| or they're just ruthless when it comes to criminal justice.
| Based on the other comments in this thread, it seems the
| latter.
|
| That isn't actually quite the case. Part of that amazing
| conviction rate comes from simply not prosecuting cases that
| they have a chance of losing. So they have an abysmal
| prosecution rate for crimes like rape.
| voakbasda wrote:
| Rape has abysmal prosecution and conviction rates in the US.
| A few years ago, I was told 3% of cases end in conviction.
| Thus it was no surprise that the local prosecutor declined to
| take my case, despite my providing the glass that contained
| the drug residue.
| new299 wrote:
| What disappoints me is that people make these claims without
| taking a few seconds to Google...
|
| Academic work I've seen suggests it's basically down to case
| selection:
|
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/468111
|
| But what also fascinates me is that people can so easily come
| up with strong opinions about a culture based on limited
| information I.e saying "a society that prides itself on honor
| can act so dishonorably"...
|
| It's weird, people talk about Japan like it's an alien planet.
| Klingons may have been based upon the Japanese but I assure you
| Japanese life is not very much like Star Trek.
| porknubbins wrote:
| Most popular ideas about what Japan is like by people who
| have never been there are probably wrong, but also Japan is
| massively from the US in all sorts of interesting ways that
| are worth talking about.
| haecceity wrote:
| We watch anime so we know what we're talking about.
| fomine3 wrote:
| Muraki's case is most notorious one.
|
| https://www.nippon.com/en/people/e00156/railroaded-one-woman...
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| > It's interesting to me how a society that prides itself on
| honor can act so dishonorably when it comes to human rights.
|
| Honor has different definitions for different cultures.
| crooked-v wrote:
| On this note, the Ace Attorney series is one long parody of the
| Japanese criminal law system, which is why it's such a running
| theme that every defendant is automatically guilty until you
| incontrovertibly prove them otherwise and why the defense
| attorneys get treated like dirt throughout.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| The series may have taken things a little far:
| https://www.awkwardzombie.com/comic/guilty-until-proven-
| guil...
|
| > This is a comic that Norrin wrote. It is about the Ace
| Attorney system of law, in which your client is not only
| guilty until proven innocent, but also guilty until someone
| _else_ is proven guilty. If you want to get away with murder
| in this universe, all you need to do is not wander into the
| courtroom after the system has inevitably arrested the wrong
| person.
| shusaku wrote:
| Yeah that just sounds like something you made up. I suppose
| Perry Mason is a parody of the American legal system too?
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| "a society that prides itself on honor"
|
| Are there any society that does not? This seems a meaningless,
| often parotted phrase about Japanese culture by people who do
| not understand it.
|
| That exact same sentence could be applied to the treatment of
| black and brown people in the United States. Do you remember
| stop-and-frisk in New York City? What percentage was black and
| brown people? It was an appalling programme and gross
| miscarriage of justice. And that happened (figuratively) in the
| shadow of the Statue of Liberty.
| PHGamer wrote:
| honestly i dopnt think ghosn is really the big issue anyways. as
| stated in the article this is more about renault than ghosn. he
| was just collateral, probably because he didnt wanna pick sides .
| probably wouldn't have been arrested if he stepped down but if
| you ran 2 different companies in 2 different places would you.
| Danieru wrote:
| > probably because he didnt wanna pick sides
|
| Ghosn was pushing the merger. His plan was the headquarters the
| merged holding company outside both Japan and France where he
| would have yet even less supervision.
|
| Ghosn pillaged Nissan and Renault, and a merger was his perfect
| chance to cover the tracks.
| rasz wrote:
| Ghosn pillaged Nissan out of bankruptcy.
| laurieg wrote:
| The most curious thing: Why were none of the Japanese executives
| arrested? Not even briefly for questioning? Ghosn was held for
| hundreds of days, Kelly is currently undergoing trial.
|
| It seems to me that this was a corporate coup with assistance
| from the prosecutors office. The plan was Ghosn would be
| arrested, admit guilt straightaway, possibly under some
| questionable interrogation[1] and then get a fine/suspended
| sentence. Nissan could be free from Ghosn with a minimum of fuss.
|
| Of course, it didn't go down that way, but Ghosn fleeing the
| country was probably the next best thing. Public opinion in Japan
| generally seems to be "Why would you run if you are innocent?"
| and the case is forgotten.
|
| It will be interesting to see if any revelations come out in
| Kelly's trial (currently underway).
|
| [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/world/asia/11japan.html
| slightwinder wrote:
| > Why were none of the Japanese executives arrested?
|
| For what? A criminal is claiming his innocence, classical
| story, people do that all the time. Without further proof, why
| should anyone bother people who are probably innocent, and more
| important: powerful. That could seriously harm your career if
| you do something to lightly. Who would do that in this
| situation?
|
| The other problem is the pretty strict chain of responsability
| people in Japan maintain. Especially in the legal system, there
| is a very strong and infamous believe that people do not fail
| in their work, and questioning it is a serious matter. This is
| a long known problem with japan, but it's quite hard to fix
| this. So even in a regular harmless case, hardly anyone would
| do something to insult someone else by questioning the result
| of their work.
| rendall wrote:
| > _why should anyone bother people who are probably innocent,
| and more important: powerful_
|
| Oh you sweet summer child. Why, indeed? Why would anyone
| bother an innocent, powerful person?
| sunstone wrote:
| The thing I can't believe is that Japan's trading partners like
| USA, Canada, UK, Europe etc. haven't said boo about this
| outrageous miscarriage of justice in which the Japanese
| government has been complicit. As for as I know not one
| government has spoken out publicly.
| rendall wrote:
| You cannot assume the fellow is innocent. A government,
| particularly an ally, cannot be reckless with accusations.
| killingtime74 wrote:
| Carlos Ghosn is a small potato. His only connection to those
| countries you listed is France. Does he have connections with
| French politicians? Probably not.
| petre wrote:
| Japan has >99% conviction rate if you get arrested. That's
| precisely why you would run if you're innocent. Although it's
| more complicated.
|
| https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-japans-99-c...
| jbay808 wrote:
| That's an often-quoted statistic that really doesn't mean
| what it looks like. The main reason their conviction rate is
| so high is not that they have some bloodthirsty kangaroo
| court, but rather that charges are very likely to be dropped
| by the prosecution if there isn't compelling evidence certain
| to end in conviction, rather than the prosecution risking
| losing the case.
| throw_away wrote:
| This very article says the same, if read past the headline:
|
| > Japan's often-cited conviction rate of over 99 percent is
| a percentage of all prosecuted cases, not just contested
| cases. It is eye-catching, but misleading, since it counts
| as convictions those cases in which defendants pleaded
| guilty. If the U.S. conviction rate were calculated in a
| similar manner it would also exceed 99 percent since so few
| cases are contested at trial (in FY 2018 only 320 of the
| total number of 79,704 federal defendants were acquitted at
| trial).
|
| I was curious why I kept seeing this article coming up as
| an attack on Japan when the text clearly doesn't come
| across that way & yep, this link is the first google result
| for "japan 99% conviction rate"
| shkkmo wrote:
| I don't believe that is the main reason. Forced confessions
| without a lawyer present is a huge factor in Japan's
| conviction rate.
|
| > In Japan this occurs in the context of forced confessions
| during detention of suspects whose lawyers are not present
| during interrogation. In the United States a similar danger
| is present in plea bargaining. There is a well-known "trial
| penalty" -- a defendant who spurns the prosecutor's offer
| of a plea bargain will generally receive a significantly
| higher sentence if found guilty at trial. Both systems
| struggle to provide oversight of confessions and plea
| bargains, respectively, by means of judicial hearings.
| rjzzleep wrote:
| They don't because in Japan they're not as worried about their
| own citizen leaving the country.
|
| When you get caught stealing something in Japan they will take
| you into custody for over 20 days, no bail, no nothing. I
| believe it's 10 days and then 1 or 2 extensions(but I don't
| remember the details). This only applies to foreigners.
|
| Basically the idea is that the only real punishment they can
| give you is whatever they can give you for breaking the rules
| before you flee the country.
|
| But yeah, there's obviously also an aspect of racism there.
| rramadass wrote:
| Here is a short interview with a Japanese lawyer on how the
| law screws over foreigners:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ZLGqL1FMo
|
| After watching this, i could understand why Carlos Ghosn did
| what he did; it is an abhorrent "Hostage Justice" system.
| Delk wrote:
| That's an interesting interview. Too bad the editing of the
| video leaves a bit to be desired: it seems to cut out parts
| and skip in such a way that it's hard to tell what exactly
| the lawyer originally said, and how much the editing
| affects how you understand what was said.
|
| The editing is probably benign in intention, but I would
| much rather hear a longer and perhaps more convoluted
| explanation than something cut-for-convenience where I'm
| not sure if I'm hearing and understanding the interviewee's
| answers the way he said them.
| diogenescynic wrote:
| It seemed pretty clear the Nissan part of the Renault-Nissan
| alliance didn't like the changes Ghosn had made because he made
| cuts to certain parts of the company that were underperforming.
| Even though Ghosn's reforms were successful, the Nissan side of
| the alliance was slighted and seems to have ultimately schemed
| to set up Ghosn and push him out.
| fomine3 wrote:
| Because only Ghosn (considered to) did embezzlement?
| 55555 wrote:
| The embezzlement charges didn't seem to make much sense when
| I took a look. Taken literally, sure, maybe he embezzled. But
| this is a guy who basically set his own salary at whatever
| number he wanted every year for 20 years. And apparently
| there was a culture at the top of the company where the
| executives were able to spend quite freely using company
| money. If you are able to simply legally pay yourself more if
| you want to, the only reason you wouldn't is that you are
| under the impression you can simply use company money for
| personal use anyway. What's the difference, really? It's
| almost just an accounting issue; clarification for investors.
|
| I read the articles a long time ago so I may be off by a bit
| but I recall that when I did the math Carlos Ghosn had a
| personal net worth of at least ~$115 million _at the time he
| was accused of embezzling just a few million dollars._ It's
| like a millionaire stealing $20,000. Certainly possible, but
| more likely to be some sort of misunderstanding given the
| circumstances.
|
| I don't expect this to be a popular comment. But the charges
| never made much sense to me. And normally in cases of
| corporate embezzlement there isn't such a compelling
| alternate narrative/conspiracy to explain what happened.
| fomine3 wrote:
| This is Fair. For GP:
|
| > Why were none of the Japanese executives arrested?
|
| Then zero arrest is expected, or you have any suspicion?
| laurieg wrote:
| Saikawa, the CEO of Nissan at the time of Ghosn's arrest,
| has admitted to being overpaid.
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/09/nissan-ceo-saikawa-to-
| step-d...
| CalChris wrote:
| Martha Stewart went to prison for insider trading to avoid
| a loss of $45,673. She was worth in the hundreds of
| millions at the time.
| bzbarsky wrote:
| Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to federal
| investigators and obstruction of justice, not for insider
| trading. The "insider trading" (not actually a crime; the
| actual criminal thing in such cases tends to be
| "securities fraud") charges were variously dropped or
| dismissed by the court, depending on the charge.
|
| So she was actually innocent (in the legal system sense,
| at least) of the crime she was initially accused of, but
| guilty of obstructing the investigation.
|
| Similar to the Ghosn story, actually: he's guilty of
| jumping bail and whatnot no matter what's going on with
| the substantive issue of embezzlement.
| CalChris wrote:
| That's a few decimal places down from the point. Stewart
| was sentenced to five months of prison for what was a
| $45,673 crime which she then later had to repay with
| interest. She was worth 100s of millions at the time.
|
| The point was that it's not impossible, merely because
| Ghosn was rich, that he didn't do the deed.
| rendall wrote:
| > _Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to federal
| investigators_
|
| Kids, if the FBI comes a-knocking, shut. Your. Fat.
| Fucking. Mouth.
|
| Ask for a lawyer and the shut the fuck up. It doesn't
| matter if you're innocent.
|
| If you talk to the Feds and make a mistake, you can be
| charged with a felony for lying to to federal agents. Did
| you talk to that guy on Saturday, May 20th, 2017? Who
| knows? The Feds do, and if you don't remember precise
| details, you got yourself a felony charge. Felony. Even
| if you are innocent of anything else, you lied to a
| Federal investigator.
|
| Shut up. Ask for a lawyer. And shut up.
|
| (I'm OK with the downvotes, if this helps someone
| remember to shut up and get a lawyer)
| sgift wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWHrkDX35o
|
| It's always shut the fuck up Friday. 7 days a week.
| baybal2 wrote:
| I advice you to reform the US federal criminal law.
|
| It's a glaring injustice that a completely random
| innocent person can be prosecuted for saying "I don't
| know"
| xnyan wrote:
| Where do you live? I can guarantee your state
| security/police operates in a roughly comparable manner.
| sharklazer wrote:
| I read it the same way. You said it better than I could.
|
| It seems like an easy way to remove a Gaijin from a
| Nipponjin-position. Or maybe he made some other execs
| unhappy behind the scenes.
| jesterson wrote:
| > It seems to me that this was a corporate coup with assistance
| from the prosecutors office.
|
| You couldn't be more right here. Been working with japanese
| companies for years so those things do not come as a surprise.
|
| There is a lot of corporate fraud happening in Japan,
| particularly at large corporations. No way Ghosn was innocent -
| however at the same time all japanese at Nissan board were well
| aware of what was happening and benefitted from that. Were they
| arrested you may ask? Certainly no. They took the power and if
| you ask me, I can't be more bearish on Nissan's future.
| Goety wrote:
| To top it off Japan extradited US citizens for doing something
| not considered a crime in Japan! In what world does that
| happen?
| garmaine wrote:
| That's the nature of extradition.
|
| Edit: Why the downvotes?
|
| "If requested by the charging state, US states and
| territories must extradite anyone charged with a felony,
| misdemeanor, or even petty offense in another US state or
| territory, even if the offense is not a crime in the
| custodial state."
|
| As far as I'm aware this holds true of international
| extradition too. That's kinda the whole point--you can't
| escape justice by picking a destination that doesn't
| prosecute your crime.
| [deleted]
| retrac wrote:
| I did not downvote, but I suspect they're from your attempt
| to compare to domestic American law. While tempting, it's a
| misleading comparison here. US states do that because the
| US constitution has the "full faith and credit" clause
| requiring them to acknowledge and cooperate with the legal
| processes of other states. There is no equivalent
| internationally.
|
| Dual criminality is a standard provision in most (nearly
| all? all?) extradition treaties. Canada's treaty with the
| USA for example says:
|
| > Persons shall be delivered up according to the provisions
| of this Treaty for any of the offenses listed in the
| Schedule annexed to this Treaty, which is an integral part
| of this Treaty, provided these offenses are punishable by
| the laws of both Contracting Parties by a term of
| imprisonment exceeding one year.
|
| and the US-Japan treaty says:
|
| > Extradition shall be granted in accordance with the
| provisions of this Treaty for any offense listed in the
| Schedule annexed to this Treaty, which forms an integral
| part of this Treaty, when such an offense is punishable by
| the laws of both Contracting Parties by death, by life
| imprisonment, or by deprivation of liberty for a period of
| more than one year [...]
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| Countries can still extradite in this scenario as a
| "favour" but there is typical a strong legal case against
| extradition if the charged crime is not a crime in the
| legal jurisdiction. (see current issue with Meng Wanzhou
| the Huawei CFO fighting extradition from Canada to USA)
|
| >> That's kinda the whole point--you can't escape justice
| by picking a destination that doesn't prosecute your crime.
|
| You most certain can; combine poor relations with the
| country requesting extradition and you can avoid "justice"
| indefinitely.
| [deleted]
| djrogers wrote:
| >For more than a year, Mr Ghosn spent long periods in custody or
| was held under house arrest in Tokyo after being bailed. It was
| not clear when a trial would take place - the fear was it could
| take years - and Mr Ghosn faced a further 15 years in prison if
| convicted, in a country which has a 99.4% conviction rate.
|
| >It was during a period of house arrest, when Mr Ghosn was told
| he would not be allowed to have any contact with his wife,
| Carole, that he decided to find a way out.
|
| Holy cow - that's an insane system for a 'modern western
| democracy'...
| LatteLazy wrote:
| The general rule in Japan is that if the police say you did it,
| the jury either agree or they're calling the police liars, and
| that would be a huge a loss of face for the police, and no one
| wants that.
| shkkmo wrote:
| If you calculate the US conviction rate in the same way, it is
| also around 99%.
|
| Now I also find that "insane" but it isn't out of line with
| other "modern western democracies"
| paulpauper wrote:
| Not really. Federal prosecutors have a 98 percent conviction
| rate. Combined with long sentences means a lot of ppl just
| plead guilty even if innocent
| sn41 wrote:
| 99.4 percent conviction rate? That sounds very suspicious to
| me.
|
| Btw, strange that Japan is called as 'Western' - perhaps the
| better term is OECD? Same goes for NZ, I guess.
| fouric wrote:
| An article linked in another comment in this thread[1]
| implies that this is because Japanese prosecutors pressure
| everyone, even innocents, into confession[2].
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27827906 [2]
| https://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/world/asia/11japan.html
| aunty_helen wrote:
| ???? NZ is a first world British colony, same as USA, Canada
| and the closest neighbour, geographically and culturally,
| Australia.
| sn41 wrote:
| Yeah, but geographically it is quite east of even Japan.
| ot wrote:
| Or west of the US.
| forty wrote:
| I think parents comment is just about the fact that Japan
| and NZ are at the very East side of European maps, which is
| why it might be surprising to tag them Western.
| chmod775 wrote:
| > 99.4 percent conviction rate?
|
| There's commonly two cited reasons for that:
|
| - Prosecutors won't even charge you unless they're completely
| convinced they've got an open-and-shut case.
|
| - Because of this, judges are likely to assume you are guilty
| _if_ charged.
|
| Additionally, wrongful convictions are extremely embarrassing
| for judges, prosecutors, and their offices. For this reason
| they are unlikely to admit mistakes and other judges are
| under extreme pressure not to overturn convictions.
| anonu wrote:
| Carlos should have taken the GM role when Obama called him about
| it. He would've made a lot more money and not been in this
| situation.
| Aisen8010 wrote:
| It's very easy to say what Mr. Ghosn should have done in a
| retrospective analysis. Unfortunately, he didn't have a crystal
| ball.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Yeah, and I should have kept all my bitcoins instead of selling
| them at $650 each, but here we are.
| eyelovewe wrote:
| Ha, I sold 2 for ~200 usd. Coulda shoulda woulda
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > From Tokyo, Mr Ghosn travelled by bullet train to Osaka where a
| private jet was waiting at the local airport to depart.
|
| How I escaped Japan in a private jet
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