[HN Gopher] Why Build Toys
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Why Build Toys
Author : akharris
Score : 114 points
Date : 2021-07-12 16:44 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.aaronkharris.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.aaronkharris.com)
| jgerrish wrote:
| Great article.
|
| I'm happy developers have the ability to build and work on things
| they love. And create something fun.
|
| But, at the same time, endless warnings about the seriousness of
| toys becoming monster businesses would be more believable if
| aborting companies and anti-trust wasn't still a shitshow a
| century after the big trusts.
|
| This isn't the author's fault, but mixing "Let's have a
| conversation on Big Tech." with warnings about havoc seems
| disingenuous at best.
|
| We understand that organizations are these complex things that
| take over everything and shit everywhere. And at the same time
| build things that make you smile and facilitate community.
|
| We don't as citizens have all the tools to manage that without
| drama.
| MrLeap wrote:
| The latent value of irreverence has been a pillar of the project
| I've been working on full time since last October.
|
| Like, I just added printer support..
| https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1413803026062745600
|
| But for the sake of the trees I'm making it grueling
| https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414411610844803072
| https://twitter.com/LeapJosh/status/1414678420177440769
|
| Does anyone even own a printer these days? Who knows? Don't care!
| The feature's true purpose is to try and draw out a smile, and
| from there maybe a look. The fact it actually works is a nice
| side effect.
| azhenley wrote:
| Exactly. I have a lot of the same feelings, so 6 weeks ago I
| wrote a similar blog post, "Why I prefer making making useless
| stuff". I haven't quite figured out how to convert my "useless
| stuff" into a company yet though...
|
| Blog post:
| https://web.eecs.utk.edu/~azh/blog/makinguselessstuff.html
|
| HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27256867
|
| Reddit discussion:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/njcpxt/why_i_p...
| [deleted]
| akharris wrote:
| Fantastic post.
|
| You say "haven't quite figured out" - does that imply there are
| things you wanted to convert but didn't see the path for, or
| that the question hasn't truly come up?
| _benj wrote:
| I loved that article!! Ever since then I've been playing with
| some techs that I've been curious since forever but without a
| "project" to try them I hadn't...
|
| The notion of doing something for which I don't care about
| github stars or readability or even good programming practices
| (1000L files!) it's SO FREEING!
|
| Thanks for that article, it has helped me found the joy I had
| when I was just poking around on the computer, which I've
| missed now that I'm a "professional"...
| the_only_law wrote:
| I get disappointed when I see someone build something cool, but
| maybe not commercializable, and the comments come in asking:
| "yeah, but how are you planning to monetize it".
|
| 90% of the side projects I embark in are likely to have no
| commercial value, but are pretty cool, at least I'd like to
| think.
| twoquestions wrote:
| Hey, if you had fun building the thing your time was not
| wasted.
| dylan604 wrote:
| It's more about the journey than the destination on most of my
| side projects. Yes, the end product is meant to be useable by
| me (hence me expending the effort). However, I tend to learn
| new build techniques or it's a chance to hone a skill. Do all
| of my solder joints look the same/consistent (hopefully good)?
| Did I really need to make a biscuit join? Could I have make a
| cleaner cut into this plastic using a hot knife vs a spinning
| blade?
|
| You know non-software nerdy hacker stuff.
| packetslave wrote:
| and the ever-popular snide reply: "you have too much free time
| on your hands"
| RodgerTheGreat wrote:
| "You have too much time undevoted to the advancement of
| capitalism on your hands" just doesn't roll off the tongue as
| well, I suppose.
| rubyn00bie wrote:
| Hell yeah. I literally can't be bothered to "finish" something
| once I've solved the difficult parts. I've got quite a library
| now of software that's 80-90% complete. Almost all of them die
| in the final "clean up styling," and "adjust branding" phases
| because they're so fucking boring to me. Is it a waste? Oooh
| hell no! It's getting to the point where I'm searching my own
| fucking code for answers. It's great. "Oh yeah, I totally did
| setup, configure, and deploy an custom search engine built on
| Lucene" or "oh yeah I totally spent four months researching
| encryption algos, which one was best for the time/CPU budget I
| have? Let me check."
|
| It's nice to hear others are the same or at least enjoy the
| journey. Maybe this will be the motivation I need to starting
| releasing them "as-is" which is more of a "journey included,
| destination not determined" state...
| [deleted]
| rpastuszak wrote:
| I'm not sure about you, but the more experienced I am, as a
| developer or "builder", the smaller things I end up making.
|
| For instance, I launched a bunch of games that are, frankly, more
| fun to watch, than to play (e.g. an All-hands meeting simulator:
| https://rafsters.itch.io/all-hands) or little tools this one
| https://sonnet.io/posts/reactive-hole/ (it's stupid, completely
| replaceable, but somewhat adorable).
|
| I come from a family with 4 generations of carpenters. It's a
| profession more similar to software engineering that most
| engineering jobs I can think of. The main difference is that in
| our domain so often the results of our work just don't feel real.
|
| If you're in this situation and this frustrates you, either build
| something small that people would use OR go ahead build something
| useless, but intentionally.
| gregsadetsky wrote:
| Loved the All-hands meeting simulator! Congrats
| samstave wrote:
| You should add:
|
| "Make the world a better place?"
|
| to the agenda
| ehnto wrote:
| > an All-hands meeting simulator:
|
| Ha! Fantastic.
|
| > I come from a family with 4 generations of carpenters. It's a
| profession more similar to software engineering that most
| engineering jobs I can think of. The main difference is that in
| our domain so often the results of our work just don't feel
| real.
|
| That is the core issue I have with software development, it can
| feel ephemeral and extremely temporary.
|
| My remediation for this is partially game development too,
| since the artifact you create is immersive and directly enjoyed
| by others, it can make you feel surprisingly connected to the
| world.
| spoonjim wrote:
| It sucks how temporary software is, especially Web software.
| If you don't pay the hosting bill it's gone. If you don't
| upgrade to 64 but it's useless. Essentially it's a plate
| spinning on a stick and it needs constant attention to
| survive.
|
| Contrast that to a fine piece of furniture which barring fire
| or flood can just sit abandoned in a warehouse for 300 years
| and then be even more valuable than it was initially.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Thw flip side being that once built you can potentially
| reach thousands if not millions of people with your
| project.
| fossuser wrote:
| This is some of the appeal of urbit to me:
| https://moronlab.blogspot.com/2010/01/urbit-functional-
| progr...
|
| That blog post is old, urbit does exist now.
| hytdstd wrote:
| This article is extremely long-winded. Do you mind
| providing a summary of what exactly appeals to you?
|
| Also: Is "C. Guy Yarvin" Curtis Yarvin?
| [deleted]
| Matticus_Rex wrote:
| > Also: Is "C. Guy Yarvin" Curtis Yarvin?
|
| Yeah, Urbit was Yarvin's project until 2019 when he left
| the company.
| fossuser wrote:
| Core idea is how can you design a software system that
| avoids the pitfalls of spinning plate on a stick that
| requires constant maintenance as the world shifts around
| it, 'the big ball of mud'.
|
| One way to do this is to design a system where all events
| of the system can be replayed from start to finish in an
| immutable/repeatable way. Taking the advantages of state
| guarantees from functional language design and applying
| something similar to an entire OS.
|
| You can design something that abstracts this general
| design away from specific implementations of pieces that
| interact with the underlying system today (*nix).
|
| This podcast doesn't a decent job of introducing some of
| the concepts:
| https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/understanding-
| urbit/id...
|
| It's a little hard to summarize in a really short comment
| because there's a lot of new/first principles thinking
| that doesn't analogize super cleanly to the existing
| software stack people are familiar with (which is why
| it's interesting).
|
| Yeah that's Curtis Yarvin, I think his neo-reactionary
| politics are wrong [0], but the design and ideas behind
| urbit are good (and he's no longer directly involved in
| the project).
|
| [0]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-
| reactionary-f...
| tdumitrescu wrote:
| I dunno, as someone with a lot of antique furnishings in a
| 19th-century house, I'd say that there's quite a bit of
| ongoing maintenance to prevent the march of time and usual
| wear and tear from grinding everything to dust!
| samstave wrote:
| I'm 46. I have been working in SV since ~1996
|
| I have had several existential crisis wondering *"what the
| fuck am I doing this for, we produce nothing."*
|
| ---
|
| This happened to me at FB, SF, Lucas, Brocade...
|
| I was like "yeah, im doing well professionally, making
| money - but at the end of the day, it was just "we produce
| nothing of intrinsic value"
|
| I find it ironic that NFTs are now the version of creating
| something of digital content, but it has non-fungible
| (intrinsic value) and they are attempting to make a money
| laundering network out of NFTs (if you may not be aware,
| the art market is the largest money laundering scheme ever
| devised up until where we are at present.
|
| I am currently going through a mid-life, as I can't stand
| tech at all - but its all I know, so I am attempting to
| just get into gardening and maybe work at a nursery...
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I'm a little younger than you, so I want to ask this:
|
| If it were up to you, alone or with a team you're in
| charge of, do you think you could come up with a piece of
| software which would be less ephemeral and more lasting,
| perhaps being able to work unadministered or requiring
| minimum administration for a while, and be usable AND
| useful for years without any major changes?
|
| What would it look like, and what would its pieces be
| made of?
| armchairhacker wrote:
| > we produce nothing of intrinsic value
|
| Idk about that. You could say the same about a farmer or
| a banker or a teacher etc. Even the guys who build the
| Empire State building - there were probably hundreds of
| them, each only building a small part - and someday that
| will get lost in time also.
|
| "Intrinsic value" is whatever you define it to be. I
| guess if you're working for some ad-sales-management
| company making software for other big companies, then you
| probably don't think you're making much intrinsic value.
| But my philosophy is, just try to make the world a
| slightly better place to live in when you leave. And even
| a small library or project may help others working on
| bigger projects, which influence bigger projects, which
| cause real change.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Imagine your whole life has been spent flipping bits.
| Highly frustrating, I'm really happy that I also have some
| real world skills and I'm always wondering whether the
| buildings that I put up will outlive me.
| k2xl wrote:
| Do you have a video of the all hands simulator?
| thearn4 wrote:
| I think this is related to why I got into stain glass window
| making as a pandemic hobby. As everything I was working on felt
| ephemeral and physically disconnecting, it was refreshing to
| take on something both creative and tangible.
| slmjkdbtl wrote:
| It's insane people automatically use the word "useless" for
| anything that cannot directly or indirectly turn into capital or
| material gain, a lot of cases it just brings happiness directly
| (which is the desired result of any capital and material gain).
| mattpratt wrote:
| Similar to this one from a16z: https://cdixon.org/2010/01/03/the-
| next-big-thing-will-start-...
|
| While Aaron's essay approaches the analogy from the perspective
| of those building, the linked essay approaches it from the
| market's perspective. For builders, don't take yourself so
| seriously -- but on the flip side, don't be so quick to write new
| things off as silly.
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| IMO making toys is the hardest thing of all designs... too long-
| shot/perspective to cover.. like while some adult may be able to
| tell what he likes/dislikes about a thing, it not so for kids..
| esp. in long run.
|
| it's a blessing that some (physical or not at all) toys still
| exist without being monetized.. although the trends with
| everything-being-appz might kill that some day
|
| maybe OT, but some 10+y ago, i passed through few continents and
| cultures within 3-4 months, and while looking for toys for the
| kids to bring home from that journey, in plenty of places, i
| realized something.. the culture/society is somehow representable
| by what toys it makes for it's kids. Somewhat like the cultural
| dimensions thing, but in different aspects.. Like shallow vs
| deep, curiousness vs just-grinding, beautiful vs ugly, well
| crafted vs cheaply, etc. And funny, Rich/expensive as $$$ doesnot
| always correspond to richness of toy-experience/perception. Of
| course it's rather subjective, YMMV
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| now on topic.. quoting "Business is about making money and
| working with customers. These are very serious and scary things.
| Toys are for playing and trying new things. This isn't serious at
| all":
|
| Maybe the problem is that what is called/accepted as "serious" is
| the opposite of it? A toy for shapeing a mind (of kids) may be
| looooots more serious/important that some $$$$$ made per-day..
| kind-a the 4th planet the little prince visited..
| [deleted]
| dimatura wrote:
| Anki (the robotics toy company, not the flash cards) comes to
| mind. IIRC they had aspirations to build non-toy tech. It didn't
| work out, though, as they shut down last year. It's unfortunate -
| I got one of their vector robots for cheap after they shut down
| and it's a fun little gadget.
| juliend2 wrote:
| My favorite tool for thinking visually is totally in that
| mindset: https://kinopio.club/
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