[HN Gopher] Handwriting is better than typing when learning a ne...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Handwriting is better than typing when learning a new language,
       study finds
        
       Author : lnyan
       Score  : 130 points
       Date   : 2021-07-12 14:27 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.sciencealert.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.sciencealert.com)
        
       | momirlan wrote:
       | I'm pretty sure Arabic is a special case for a person using the
       | Latin alphabet. Would it be true for trying to learn another
       | language using the same alphabet ? That is not tested in the
       | article.
        
       | frazbin wrote:
       | As somebody who has congenitally shitty handwriting and usually
       | ignores advice to pick up a pencil: it's still helpful when
       | learning a new language. In fact, my natural crappiness becomes
       | helpful because I have to be incredibly mindful in the act of
       | writing to wind up with anything legible.
        
       | cromwellian wrote:
       | This is definitely true I found for learning Chinese characters.
       | Using Pinyin input to do everything results in character amnesia,
       | by drilling on writing the characters makes it easier to recall
       | them when you see them next time.
        
       | boomboomsubban wrote:
       | I feel like the needing to forget your base keymap would make
       | learning with a keyboard much harder. A made up example if I saw
       | the new letter for "s", I'd tell myself it's located where "k" is
       | and then I'd be confused if it was k or s when I saw it.
        
       | alexpetralia wrote:
       | I think the benefit here is that handwriting forces you to be
       | parsimonious. You simply cannot mindlessly transcribe words onto
       | a page as fast as you can type onto a screen.
       | 
       | As a result, you have compress the information into a distilled
       | format - this requires understanding. If you're just typing -
       | transcribing really - you are not forced to understand, only
       | touch type.
       | 
       | If this is the actual mechanism - that handwriting forces you to
       | understand - then I have also have an alternative which includes
       | typing.
       | 
       | That is, "take notes twice."
       | 
       | I always have a transcribed set of notes (anything which could
       | possibly be relevant), and then a "curated" set which compresses
       | the relevant and tosses the irrelevant. Yes, it takes more
       | effort; yes, it takes more time. That is the cost of
       | understanding. Personally I've found this to work better for me
       | than handwriting.
        
         | baby wrote:
         | I wish the same would exist for reading. One sentence at a
         | time.
        
       | unlikelymordant wrote:
       | If handwriting is better than typing, is there some other way of
       | representing words that is better than handwriting? Perhaps other
       | than speaking? Is it just because these are the first methods we
       | learn to represent language? Or is it because there are more
       | degrees of freedom in handwriting, i.e. more ways of getting
       | things wrong so you have to focus a lot more.
        
         | musingsole wrote:
         | It doesn't transfer as easily to other people but mindmaps or
         | lukasa (for an ancient predecessor) are infinitely information
         | dense and naturally built to the particularities of their
         | builder's mind.
        
       | whalesalad wrote:
       | I have better results with handwritten note-taking during dev
       | work than digital. I have a pile of multicolored spiral bound
       | notebooks on my desk that I use for clients/projects. Save a few
       | pages in the beginning of each book for misc/table of contents.
        
       | SimianLogic2 wrote:
       | I learn by taking notes. I have notebooks full of notes... but I
       | don't ever actually refer back to them. Just the act of writing
       | things down helps me remember things.
        
       | Nadya wrote:
       | After years of putting off handwriting Japanese since almost all
       | of my communication was verbal or over the internet where I had
       | to type it - my experience was that writing is vastly more
       | important than people make it out to be. Especially the kind of
       | people who are only interested in verbal communication (of which
       | I was one).
       | 
       | My experience mirrors this study for Japanese at least. Instead
       | of typing sentences for vocabulary learning I have a journal
       | where I write them instead. I'd say I learn words and kanji more
       | quickly ever since I made that change.
       | 
       | So while the study was for Arabic, and from scratch, my
       | experience is from Japanese and roughly 1 - 1.5 years into
       | learning (so wasn't a novice/from scratch at that point).
        
         | viraptor wrote:
         | When I learned Japanese, I realised after a while I could
         | recognise a few kanji, but could visualise barely any of them.
         | As in, I could use the language already, but if you asked me to
         | write some hiragana character, I'd be totally stuck.
         | 
         | Practicing writing, even with apps made for that purpose helped
         | a lot.
        
       | MAGZine wrote:
       | I totally get this. If I need to focus and truly understand
       | something, there is no replacement for writing.
       | 
       | Keyboards are fast, but the interaction patterns frequently
       | devolve to almost squirrely behaviour. rapid movements, editing,
       | and fleeting thoughts. It encourages you to move from one thought
       | to the next as quickly as possible. Our MODE of measurement when
       | typing is measured in WPM--how quickly you can output text.
       | 
       | Writing... is not that. Yes, you can rush. But it's slower, and I
       | find that it helps me stay on single lines of thought. There's no
       | manic jumping around, edit here, edit there. You can write the
       | words, slowly even, and ruminate in their meaning.
       | 
       | Computers are unparalleled for editing, but I just don't find it
       | as good of a medium for creating things that require large spurts
       | of unbroken thought. And it's not that you CAN'T produce good,
       | creative, well-thought through things behind a keyboard (we all
       | do it to some extent every day), it's just not _as good_ of a
       | medium for it.
        
         | kstrauser wrote:
         | iA Writer in typewriter focus mode is great for me this way. It
         | encourages me to treat a document as append-only until I'm
         | completely finished writing it.
        
         | pessimizer wrote:
         | I don't think the speed matters as much as that _drawing_ words
         | cements them more solidly in the mind than touching them. So
         | more an imbalance in process difficulty than speed.
         | 
         | The same effect happens in note-taking. I almost never review
         | my handwritten notes, but the act of writing them is probably
         | _why_ I don 't have to review them. When I'm recalling
         | information, I frequently remember where and how on the piece
         | of paper I wrote it.
        
         | gowld wrote:
         | OTOH, of you do need to keep up (with a lecture, for example),
         | handwriting hurts because you don't have time to finish.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | stevesimmons wrote:
           | This will get easier if you summarise the main points, write
           | quicker (a skill you can practice), and do it with minimal
           | looking down at your page.
        
             | rmetzler wrote:
             | There are also lots of techniques to turn notes on paper
             | into something else than a stream of words. For example you
             | could create mind maps, tables, diagrams.
             | 
             | From my personal experience I also found I remembered hand
             | written notes much better than notes I took on the laptop.
             | While learning for tests at university I made it a point to
             | write down the most important points from handouts into s
             | ring book in order to better memorize the content.
        
             | DelightOne wrote:
             | How do you summarize when you don't know what the main and
             | what the probably unimportant point is?
        
           | cguess wrote:
           | Learn some form of shorthand, and learn how to summarize on
           | the go. Writing down word-for-word what a professor is saying
           | is not going to work well. For that, bring a tape recorder
           | (or an iPhone if you want to kill your battery) and retake
           | your notes later when you can pause, rewind, etc.
        
             | zihotki wrote:
             | And then you still will spread your focus. You'll have to
             | summarize in paralel with trying to understand a professor.
             | That doesn't work well and very tiresome.
             | 
             | Why not to watch a recording of a lecture in the first
             | place and pause when you need to think?
        
         | ozzythecat wrote:
         | > Writing... is not that. Yes, you can rush. But it's slower,
         | and I find that it helps me stay on single lines of thought.
         | There's no manic jumping around, edit here, edit there. You can
         | write the words, slowly even, and ruminate in their meaning.
         | 
         | I really like what you've said here. This rings true for me as
         | well. For years I was on a hunt for a better note taking app. I
         | tried everything from a basic Mac notes app to Sublime Text to
         | more niche tools like Omnifocus. Every time I ended up writing
         | out the most critical notes by hand in a spiral notebook
         | because it was more effective for me personally to retain that
         | information.
        
       | evv555 wrote:
       | When I was first learning programming I would carefully handwrite
       | simple code to memorize correct syntax. It was a useful context
       | switch when I was tired of normal exercises.
        
       | gowld wrote:
       | Same for taking notes when listening to a lecture or reading a
       | book.
        
       | crackercrews wrote:
       | I wonder if the benefit of handwriting is diminished if the
       | student is using a tablet that converts each handwritten word
       | into text as it is written? Is the benefit just in the act of
       | writing? Does the act of seeing your own handwritten text on a
       | page/screen reinforce the learning?
        
         | alecakin wrote:
         | I wonder this too - I know that I learn much more rapidly and
         | the knowledge "sticks" when I handwrite notes but just
         | anecdotally, I feel like the effect is "lessened" when I
         | handwrite digital notes.
        
           | mikepurvis wrote:
           | I know for me, writing on a page forces me to commit to a
           | spacial organization for the information-- partitioning it
           | into lists, leaving blank lines where I think there's going
           | to be more to add, drawing arrows and connections and so on.
           | 
           | Digital notes don't have any of those constraints, so I don't
           | have to be nearly as disciplined about it. But
           | counterintuitively, this _doesn 't_ generally lead to me
           | going back and "cleaning up" my digital notes into a properly
           | organized reference; instead it just stays a garbled mess.
           | 
           | Kind of like how I can't do cardio as its own activity, but
           | I'll happily commit to an 8km year round bike commute. I can
           | only get the benefit when it's a forced side effect of
           | something else.
        
       | user3939382 wrote:
       | I'll look up the links if anyone's interested, but FYI this is
       | just the latest in a string of studies that have produced similar
       | results.
        
       | axiosgunnar wrote:
       | (n=1 here)
       | 
       | Hard disagree.
       | 
       | Typing Chinese is so much faster and easier than writing by hand.
       | 
       | Sure, I don't learn how to write it.
       | 
       | But my dopamine-addicted web 5.0 brain would not have kept up
       | with the slow pace of learning by handwriting anyways.
        
         | FabHK wrote:
         | I find though that it's impossible to read cursive (hand-
         | written) Chinese unless you've written a lot yourself (with the
         | correct stroke order). Read printed Chinese and type using
         | pinyin, sure. Read hand-written Chinese - no way.
         | 
         | (n=1, too)
        
         | clarle wrote:
         | I'm a second-generation Chinese-American who learned my first
         | ~200 Chinese characters by handwriting and then everything else
         | from the internet.
         | 
         | I have no idea how to handwrite half the characters I can
         | recognize, read, and "write" now thanks to typing with a Pinyin
         | or Jyutping keyboard.
        
         | bobthechef wrote:
         | > Typing Chinese is so much faster and easier than writing by
         | hand.
         | 
         | The article is talking about how learning is facilitated by
         | handwriting in a way that typing does not, and not about which
         | results in more quickly produced text. (Also, it should be
         | clear that how well you know the language will also put a bound
         | on how fast you type.)
         | 
         | None of this is news. I've had teachers tell me this years ago.
         | Writing engages the brain in a way that typing keys does not.
         | That a study corroborates this claim is not surprising to me.
        
         | claudiawerner wrote:
         | I'm learning Japanese, and I'm learning the kanji using
         | Heisig's _Remembering The Kanji_ method. I combine that with
         | flashcards on Anki on my PC. When it shows a keyword card, I
         | 'll write out the character on paper or I'll trace it in the
         | air with my finger, then check if I got it right. That works
         | surprisingly well to memorize them.
         | 
         | That said, the memory pathway should work for reading _and_
         | writing, that is, recognition and production. I need a further
         | skillset (pronunciation) in order to do that production on a
         | computer, since being able to write individual characters by
         | hand without any knowledge of the words or pronunciation isn 't
         | very useful.
        
         | passivate wrote:
         | Heh, its just a paper reporting results that they found. There
         | is nothing really to disagree, as it is not an opinion. I think
         | science reporting should provide this context rather than
         | produce some kind of headline that is treated as The Truth :)
         | 
         | Anyway, when I was trying to learn French, I found that for
         | myself no single method worked. I learnt by reading, listening,
         | writing, conversing, singing some random french song, etc. My
         | belief is that learning is multimodal, and there is support for
         | this view in literature. I think these types of studies are
         | still valuable as they control for one variable and provide
         | some insight on that. I'm sure we will slowly converge on the
         | learning model most likely to promote long term retention.
        
         | TKZZ wrote:
         | Maybe in the short term, and to learn the basics/conversational
         | Chinese, however I believe in order to fully and best
         | understand the writing system it's still best to learn how to
         | write the characters. Plus, the deliberate act of creating the
         | characters stroke-by-stroke seems to better implant them in my
         | brain more than just typing out some pinyin, but maybe that's
         | just me. Spending 5-10 minutes writing a character helps me
         | remember the meaning and shape of it much better than an hour
         | doing pinyin/duolingo esque practice.
         | 
         | But I still probably can never see myself memorizing some of
         | the more complex characters that even native Chinese folks have
         | problems with :P
        
       | voisin wrote:
       | I wonder if the writing confers the same benefits where the
       | characters are the same as the learner's native language. Here
       | they used Arabic and so I wonder if there is something to the
       | learners connecting writing new characters to new
       | words/syntax/etc, versus if the characters had been the same.
        
         | sheer_audacity wrote:
         | Letters change shape depending on where they are in the word,
         | so almost certainly! :)
        
       | mleonhard wrote:
       | Original paper: https://doi.org/10.1177%2F0956797621993111
        
       | nemo44x wrote:
       | I'd say this is true for learning anything. Taking hand-written
       | notes has always led to better recall for me than typing notes.
        
       | kansface wrote:
       | > N=42
       | 
       | This is noise.
        
         | p_j_w wrote:
         | 1. There's more to determining if an effect is in the
         | statistical noise than just sample size. Effect size, for
         | example, also comes into play.
         | 
         | 2. Not every study will, or even should, try to be the final
         | word on some matter. If you come up with some novel hypothesis
         | in social science, you're not going to jump into a 2,000 person
         | study.
        
         | FabHK wrote:
         | It might be noise, but you can't tell from N=42 alone.
         | 
         | It is possible to find "significant" results with small groups
         | (my back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that the
         | proportion of success between the groups must differ by more
         | than 30 percentage points to be p<0.05). They might well have
         | done the maths and might have highly significant p-values.
         | 
         | Note the supplementary materials [1]. I don't understand them
         | without the paper, but they sure do have a lot of "*** p <
         | 0.001" results.
         | 
         | (Entirely unrelated side note: A shame that Sci-Hub currently
         | does not add papers due to litigation...)
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/suppl/10.1177/0956797621993...
        
       | emodendroket wrote:
       | Matches my experience learning foreign languages: nobody likes
       | writing words over and over, exactly, but I cannot think of a
       | more effective way to learn them.
        
       | smoe wrote:
       | When I was learning Spanish I first tried a variety of apps and
       | cds and at least for me none really worked.
       | 
       | What did help, was basically creating my own handwritten handbook
       | on how the language works, drills, usage examples, etc. Not just
       | writing it down, but visualizing it. E.g. making little drawings
       | where on the timeline all the different grammatical tenses lie.
       | Still to this day, many years later and without any clue where
       | the physical handbook is, I still often mentally pull it up when
       | I'm not sure on how to say something.
        
       | sheer_audacity wrote:
       | Interesting they used Arabic for this example - I grew up
       | learning it at school but it's only recently that smartphone
       | keyboards are good enough to implement abjad. Most of the time
       | you used to just switch to arabizi
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_chat_alphabet
       | 
       | Writing in Arabic is really fun as well, calligraphy is
       | appreciated.
        
       | twirligigue wrote:
       | Is this because we learnt to write before we learnt to type?
        
       | karmakaze wrote:
       | I certainly feel the same way about remember ideas in diagrams. A
       | napkin/notebook drawing is so much better than using a design
       | tool with a mouse.
        
       | fouric wrote:
       | This article, my personal experience, what I've heard from my
       | friends, and the other evidence I've heard of all seem to support
       | the same thing: that writing things by hand leads to better
       | retention than typing.
       | 
       | This seems to be the input-level dual of the meme that reading
       | from physical paper leads to greater retention than from a
       | computer screen. I'm curious as to what the cause could be for
       | this one, as it seems less intuitive than the writing case.
       | 
       | Back to writing: I've found that while writing things down, I'm
       | often "bandwidth-limited" - not only can I not write nearly as
       | fast as I can think, but I often run into this limit on a
       | practical level, where I continually have a "buffer" of sentences
       | that I want to write and I'm just waiting for my fingers to put
       | them down on paper. Perhaps learning shorthand would allow me
       | both bandwidth and retention?
        
         | rpastuszak wrote:
         | >This seems to be the input-level dual of the meme that reading
         | from physical paper leads to greater retention than from a
         | computer screen. I'm curious as to what the cause could be for
         | this one, as it seems less intuitive than the writing case.
         | 
         | One of the possible reasons would be that we consume text
         | content on paper differently than on the screen.
         | 
         | Another reason would be that when you read text on paper you
         | engage with a unique physical object. Engaging multiple senses
         | and adding more cues/anchors helps with creating stronger
         | connections in your brain and improves memory retention.
         | 
         | That's also probably why writing things down with a pen helps
         | you remember more and for longer--more parts of your brain are
         | involved in the process of note taking.
        
         | bobthechef wrote:
         | The physical act of writing engages the brain more than typing
         | on a keyboard does. I claim that the physical motion and having
         | to form shapes, as well as the more tangible spatial procession
         | of your physical movement across the page reinforces the memory
         | through association in a way that just pushing a key does not.
         | Your hand is very intimately involved in making those marks on
         | paper. Pushing buttons causes things to appear on a screen, but
         | there is little tactile engagement and it isn't very
         | differentiated (all pushes of a key are approximately the
         | same). Writing is also more deliberate, whereas you can type
         | while half asleep. The quality of your writing also depends on
         | effort. Typed letters appear the same no matter how you press
         | the key. You are mainly concerned about pushing the correct
         | key, but how to press it is unimportant and there isn't much
         | room for variation anyway.
        
       | psychomugs wrote:
       | Technology extends but also amputates. See character amnesia:
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_amnesia
        
       | zihotki wrote:
       | I wonder if the same experience can be applied to other
       | languages. That's because in the experiment the subjects were
       | learning another language with completely different alphabet from
       | English. The study was done, I assume, in US since the university
       | is located there. It for sure will apply when learning Mandarin
       | or Katakana. But will it apply when learning a language from same
       | language family like Dutch?
       | 
       | From my personal experience if the alphabet is known for you then
       | there is no need to write by hand. Typing could be even more
       | efficient if you're typing fast. That makes it easy to quickly go
       | through a lot of excercises for writing. And fast reading and
       | reading a lot are another important factors to the success.
        
       | makeitdouble wrote:
       | > "The question out there for parents and educators is why should
       | our kids spend any time doing handwriting," says cognitive
       | scientist Brenda Rapp from Johns Hopkins University.
       | 
       | On one side, more data is better, whatever the subject is (42
       | volunteer subjects though, and at no point in the abstract it's
       | explained how they sampled them).
       | 
       | One the other hand, it looks like yet another of these studies,
       | that has a very clear agenda, with a very small sample,
       | completely focused on a single issue.
       | 
       | If at least it was adressing it directly and focused on kids at
       | school, but here it's still a small proxy supposed to represent a
       | bigger trend.
        
       | axaxs wrote:
       | I can believe it. I firmly believe the brain acts very
       | differently between typing and handwriting.
       | 
       | I make stupid mistakes all the time when I type. Not misspelling,
       | but those easy there/their/theyre type mistakes. I think it's
       | because I'm just mindlessly trying to express my opinion as fast
       | as possible.
       | 
       | I don't write nearly as much as I type, but I've never made such
       | a mistake when writing. Somewhere between the slower pace, or not
       | being distracted by 100 things going on a screen, makes things
       | feel more deliberate and carefully chosen.
        
         | jeofken wrote:
         | This is an original thought to me.
         | 
         | I wonder how grammar evolves now that most language is typed
         | rather than handwritten.
        
         | Ensorceled wrote:
         | Wow. Yeah, I never made this connection before.
         | 
         | I type you instead of your frequently, mix up homophones like
         | your/you're and there/their/they're etc. reasonably frequently.
         | I very rarely make these mistakes in hand writing OR on my
         | iPhone; only at the keyboard.
        
           | knuthsat wrote:
           | Interesting. I definitely noticed the same issue with my
           | English.
           | 
           | My mother tongue Croatian had a reconstruction of the
           | alphabet in the 19th century and these kinds of issues never
           | appear. The orthography is phonemic almost. So the word you
           | think matches to each tap when thinking of how it sounds.
        
         | elliekelly wrote:
         | I think there's a certain "muscle memory" involved. When you're
         | writing a word by hand you have to think about each letter,
         | however briefly, as you write it: "w-o-r-d". But when you're
         | typing a word you don't think about each letter so much as you
         | think about the pattern your fingers need to make, if that
         | makes sense?
         | 
         | It's like when someone asks what the keyboard shortcut is to
         | take a screenshot. Uh, I don't know? I use it all the time and
         | I couldn't tell you if I'm hitting control or command or option
         | because the underlying inputs don't really matter. I only need
         | to know the pattern my fingers are supposed to make and so
         | that's all that gets committed to memory.
        
           | 3pt14159 wrote:
           | Excellent insight. Thank you.
           | 
           | Since listening to a Lex Fridman podcast on how one
           | hemisphere of the brain is more devoted to language than the
           | other, I've been thinking about just how complex language is.
           | I've never agreed with some linguists like Chomsky that speak
           | about language as necessary for thought, mostly because my
           | own mental language is far more physical and symbolic than
           | linguistic. At one point in my life, for example, I was able
           | to look at construction drawings and point to the weakest
           | part of a structural system. That's not my brain using
           | language. That's something else.
           | 
           | That said, something that just occurred to me after reading
           | your comment is this: Over time we're having to translate
           | this communication thing into different arenas. My fingers
           | have memorized how to type most words. I wouldn't be able to
           | type as fast as I do if they didn't. My eyes and brain have
           | obviously memorized words at a glance. My ears have memorized
           | words in person, which sound different than they do from a
           | computer or television. They've also memorized the sound of
           | words from 0.5x speed to 3x speed because of all the podcasts
           | I listen to.
           | 
           | I guess where I'm going with this is that we're putting
           | larger and larger demands on our brains. The, oh what to call
           | it, increasing dimensionality of communication? That,
           | whatever that is, it feels so mentally taxing and I can't
           | imagine that is ever going away. If anything it will continue
           | to increase as societies and technologies get more complex.
        
           | wenc wrote:
           | That's a neat observation.
           | 
           | Each handwritten letter requires distinct motor skills
           | (manipulating pen angles, pressure etc.), whereas each
           | keyboard-typed letter requires a much smaller set of nearly
           | identical motor skills (just a "tap").
        
         | Olreich wrote:
         | I wonder if this has to do with how fast typing is. Is there
         | similarly diminished learning in very slow typers? Does a
         | shorthand expert fail to learn as much?
        
       | LAC-Tech wrote:
       | Well this does not bode well if I get back to learning Taiwanese
       | Mandarin :|
        
       | markus_zhang wrote:
       | On a side note, I find writing and drawing very useful when I
       | tried to get through some algorithm questions or similar things
       | that need a bit of thought. Writing and drawing weed out the edge
       | cases pretty effectively and I can better cut the question into
       | pieces in that way. I also found that if I can't sort out my
       | thoughts in written forms, there is no way for the code to work.
       | 
       | Somehow it's a lot easier to setup mental barriers (to focus or
       | to reduce problems into pieces) when I'm writing.
        
       | kstrauser wrote:
       | That's great. Alternatively, after a few decades of wishing
       | otherwise, I've accepted that for me the decision is between
       | _take notes via typing_ and _don 't take notes_.
       | 
       | I fully get the value of handwriting things. I wish it weren't
       | physically painful for me to write more than a paragraph, but it
       | is, and has been since I was a kid. (And I've tried literally
       | everything I could find to "fix" that. It's not from lack of
       | trying.) Instead, I'm stuck in the second rate world of typing my
       | notes like a peasant, shackled with vast tooling that lets me
       | selectively encrypt sensitive parts, sync them across all my
       | devices, instantly search through everything, turn notes into
       | reminders with a tap of a button, and otherwise just barely
       | scrape by.
       | 
       | I get it. I'm cheating myself by not scribbling my thoughts onto
       | a dead tree (or a Remarkable, etc.). I'm OK with that.
        
         | throwawaygal7 wrote:
         | I know what you mean about writing causing pain in the hands
         | and wrists...
         | 
         | Have you ever tried cursive? I can write much longer and with
         | less pain when using cursive - really night and day.
        
           | viraptor wrote:
           | > Have you ever tried cursive?
           | 
           | Isn't that what people over 6yo use? I can't tell if I
           | misunderstood the question or just experienced some serious
           | culture shock...
        
             | hundchenkatze wrote:
             | I'm in the U.S. and I learned cursive about that age. I'm
             | 30 now, and the only thing I write in cursive these days is
             | my signature (which for the record looks awful). I'm fairly
             | certain cursive is no longer taught in public schools in my
             | area.
        
               | viraptor wrote:
               | So people just write in block letters instead?
        
               | csa wrote:
               | Yes.
               | 
               | Schools stopped teaching it (even many "good" schools).
               | People largely don't use it except for signatures.
               | 
               | I personally switched to block letters a long time ago
               | because I can't read my own cursive when I am writing
               | quickly. My penmanship sucks.
        
         | slowmovintarget wrote:
         | Gives side-eye in fountain pen.
         | 
         | I really do prefer fountain pen on nice paper, but there are
         | times where you just need software.
        
           | kstrauser wrote:
           | There's a Lamy Safari sitting next to me, on top of a Rhodia
           | Webnotebook. If there's a gun to my head and I _have_ to
           | handwrite something, it 's far and away my favorite tool.
           | It's the least painful of everything I've tried.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | kstrauser wrote:
         | Followup: I realize I'm replying more to other comments in this
         | HN thread about handwriting notes being superior to typing
         | them, which isn't at all what the article's about.
         | 
         | The article said handwriting is better _for learning a
         | language_ , and that seems to intuitively make sense. It didn't
         | talk about note taking in general.
        
         | dhosek wrote:
         | The thing is, that returning to your notes is the _least_
         | important part of taking notes. What writing notes longhand
         | does is do a better job of encoding what you 're taking notes
         | about into your long-term memory.
         | 
         | Anecdata: As part of an ongoing project,1 I spent about two
         | years teaching myself Biblical Greek. As part of this project,
         | I ended up filling a couple notebooks with handwritten notes--
         | writing out tables of conjugations for every verb that was
         | taught, handwriting translations to and from Greek, etc. What I
         | found was that _even though I never actually went back to the
         | previous notes_ , I had good recall of the information that I
         | practiced in this fashion. I think (but what do I know?) that
         | part of it was the spatial component to the note-taking. I
         | can't find stuff in code that I've written without searching,2
         | but I could go back to my handwritten notes from learning Greek
         | (2017-2019) and find, say, what I had written about the aorist
         | passive without much difficulty.3
         | 
         | ---
         | 
         | 1. https://www.dahosek.com/category/dewey-decimal-project/
         | 
         | 2. You might think, "big deal--then search" but what if the
         | search is not by some thing easily turned into text but rather
         | some _concept_ which I don 't remember exactly what I typed to
         | do it, or the searchable thing ends up being some bit of text
         | that recurs so frequently that the search is effectively
         | useless. I have a much easier time finding things I've read on
         | paper from my personal library of around 1200 printed books
         | than I do finding something I've read online even with the fast
         | searching capabilities of the internet (although I will admit
         | that it's a lot easier to find disposable writing again online
         | than in print).
         | 
         | 3. That spatial context helps in other ways too--I can find
         | things from grad school notes (2002-6) pretty easily as well
         | and there was one time in 1999 that I pulled up a quote from a
         | book that I'd read in 1992 (which had no index) in just a
         | couple minutes thanks to my memory of roughly where in the book
         | and where on a page spread the passage appeared.4
         | 
         | 4. Yes, I know that, especially with that last anecdote that
         | I'm getting into stuff that's likely well outside the norm, but
         | the basic point that spatial context helps with memory is
         | something that's well-studied and documented. We don't get that
         | with typing on a screen.
        
           | aspyct wrote:
           | I disagree. Returning to my notes is the most important thing
           | I do.
           | 
           | I just don't have enough space in my working memory for all
           | the content we go through per day, all the different topics.
           | It's fine if you handle a thing or two, but a totally
           | different topic if you're jumping around meeting after
           | meeting.
        
       | dahfizz wrote:
       | I wish they would do studies like this with children / teenagers.
       | 
       | In an adult, handwriting is going to be ingrained in their brain
       | because they have been doing it their whole life. It is a part of
       | the language processing their brain does, and it makes sense that
       | tapping in to that helps their brain learn faster.
       | 
       | I want to see if the same is true for children who type way more
       | than they handwrite. Is there something innately better about
       | handwriting, or is it just that the brain learns better using
       | ingrained methods?
        
         | asciimov wrote:
         | > I wish they would do studies like this with children /
         | teenagers.
         | 
         | They have. I don't have said studies in front of me. But the
         | gist of it seems to be that typing is a quicker lower process
         | skill (pushing a button), where as handwriting is a slower
         | higher intensive process, (thinking about the letters you
         | write).
         | 
         | My opinion is that physical note taking, when not transcribing,
         | requires you to process the information you are given, then
         | summarizing it in your own words. With the benefit of
         | handwriting being that you have more time to process the
         | information.
        
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