[HN Gopher] The Death of the Festival
___________________________________________________________________
The Death of the Festival
Author : rudenoise
Score : 108 points
Date : 2021-07-11 05:47 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (charleseisenstein.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (charleseisenstein.org)
| spandrew wrote:
| When all one has is a hammer (Girardian festival analogy) all of
| the world's problems begin looking like nails... (socially
| engineer-able solutions)
|
| I can't really tell, but I think this article is arguing that the
| carbon crisis would be solved so long as the smelly privileged
| are allowed to have orgies in fields.
| golergka wrote:
| I spent 4 marvellous days at a semi-private psychedelic trance
| festival in deep Russian woods this June, and I couldn't disagree
| more. I felt as if I witnessed an event of similar cultural
| significance as british late 80s raves were back in their day,
| but the one that nobody outside of the community really knows
| anything about.
|
| The festival culture is alive and well, it's just got a little
| bit private, as it tries to conceal itself from authorities and
| masses. Burning Man, as well as many other festivals that
| attracted crowds lost a lot of intimacy and implied freedom; I
| just don't believe that you could feel the same way in a
| commercial festival that has more than a thousand of attendees.
| sunshineforever wrote:
| Can I ask, would a transgender person who speaks some Russian
| be able to reasonably safely go to Russia? I've practically
| almost been lynched in the USA so I am wary. I carry a gun and
| would feel pretty naked without it.
|
| Pro: I used to live on the street so I don't think I would be
| too phased by anything like average Americans.
|
| So, you think it's a good idea?
| golergka wrote:
| I wrote a big comment and deleted it, because it all depends
| on your notion of reasonable safety. If you look transgender,
| you will certainly get glances and some occasional verbal
| aggression, but as long as you follow the basic common sense
| safety rules, I doubt that you'll have to worry about
| something worse. Russia is a huge place, and living in a
| center of Moscow does feel like one of the most modern, shiny
| European cities. There's plenty of middle class (by US and
| Europe standards; they're at least upper-middle class by
| Russian standards) people living by progressive western
| values. But there's plenty of places that aren't that
| welcoming.
| kipchak wrote:
| These smaller festivals seem great for those who can attend,
| but it seems like for those who can't the largest option is
| commercialized subcultures, something like Star Wars
| Celebration to pick an example.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Except those types of festivals are marketing events, not
| true festivals.
| golergka wrote:
| > those who can attend
|
| Why wouldn't someone be able to attend? Just to clarify, I
| saw startup founders with net worth of tens of million of
| dollars and "true hippies" living on $300 a month and I
| couldn't tell them apart.
| jkhdigital wrote:
| Reads a lot like Jordan Peterson. Essays on psychological
| symbolism are hard to judge; I've read some Jung and Campbell but
| my comprehension still feels weak.
| machinehermiter wrote:
| I am a Girardian newb but Girard even mentions sporting events in
| the article.
|
| IMO it isn't just sporting events though but violent sporting
| events that let us exercise the scapegoat mechanism. At least in
| the US. If your team wins, it doesn't matter your background if
| you are both fans of the same team. I really can't think of
| anything that quite brings us together like team sports in the
| 21st century.
|
| Obviously, if you are not a sports fan this is much harder to
| see.
|
| Burning man is too obvious, literal and it just isn't that many
| people vs the whole of society.
|
| I can remember as a little kid the mimetic desire to become my
| favorite sports stars complete with wearing a jersey with their
| name on my back as if I was them.
|
| On a side note, it is an absolutely ridiculous situation that
| Audible has one audio book by Girard. I would love to pass the
| time driving in the car with a wide selection of Girard to chew
| on.
| megameter wrote:
| It's a little bit too pat in its conclusions.
|
| When watching livestreams of riots, it's really evident that the
| chaos they produce is rather like little bursts of action, and
| not so much a sustained pandemonium. These bursts are a thing
| that can actually take place anytime and don't gain special value
| because of the riot, they are just more common, more easily
| prompted. Everyone gets behind on their narrative of events in
| the process; though the observers'll say something is happening
| according to their beliefs, it's not literally the thing that is
| happening.
|
| And that isn't so far removed from just an ordinary "wild party"
| that hurts people or gets stuff smashed. It's riotous
| specifically because of the context and political impact. There
| aren't "sides" in a party, unless there's a gang fight or
| something of that nature. But a riot always expresses some
| politics.
| ElViajero wrote:
| > We know the rules of society are arbitrary, set up so that the
| show can be played out to its conclusion.
|
| This seems wrong to me. Most society rules have a reason to
| exist. Maybe, in the past century a few of that rules have become
| obsolete. But humanity is excellent at creating rules that makes
| things good enough to keep going.
|
| There is nothing that makes a society change its rules like a
| change on the environment.
|
| > We should not be surprised that Western societies are showing
| signs of mass psychosis.
|
| The "everything is going to hell" theory. And, as often happens,
| without any proof or care to explain.
|
| > More generally, locked in, locked down, and locked out, the
| population's confinement within the highly controlled environment
| of the internet is driving them crazy.
|
| *Them. I guess that the author is immune to this effect.
|
| I love festivals, and they make for a great opportunity to meet
| people and create community. Also, festivals are an opportunity
| for a community to present respect to folklore heroes and their
| moral values, and to laugh at villain and their lack thereof.
| Festivals are not to for "blow off steam".
| michaelt wrote:
| _> Most society rules have a reason to exist._
|
| Well, it depends how broad your definition of 'rules' is.
|
| I've known people who consider it a 'rule' that when wearing a
| suit you should not do up the jacket's bottom button.
|
| I can imagine a person who used this expansive definition might
| see a great many rules as arbitrary; and enjoy a festival where
| rules could be broken.
| spurgu wrote:
| > > We know the rules of society are arbitrary, set up so that
| the show can be played out to its conclusion.
|
| > This seems wrong to me. Most society rules have a reason to
| exist.
|
| They do have a reason to exist but that doesn't mean the rules
| are not arbitrary.
|
| Stop signs for example. They actually indicate that extra
| caution should be taken at the crossing. Actually stopping is
| rarely a necessity unless you want to obey the law to the
| letter. It's an arbitrary rule designed to decrease local
| accidents.
|
| Flirting at the workplace is another. It's more complex, but
| it's still an arbitrary rule, one that we might do without,
| it's all about what specifically we're trying to achieve (less
| romantic/sexual complications - positive _and_ negative - at
| the workplace) with this arbitrary rule.
|
| There are less arbitrary rules of course, like not hurting
| other people, but most rules governing day-to-day life are
| highly arbitrary, to the point where you live an incredibly
| boring life unless you're a "criminal" - I don't stop at all
| stop signs for example, which by definition makes me a
| criminal. I also use drugs recreationally.
|
| > Festivals are not to for "blow off steam".
|
| Depends on the type of festival. I'd say all of them offer a
| fresh experience out of the regular day-to-day life (which
| could be defined as "blowing off steam"). Some might be more
| "transcendent" than others.
| derekp7 wrote:
| There is a really good reason for stopping fully at a stop
| sign. If your speed and that of the cross traffic vehicle is
| matched appropriately, the vehicle will occupy the same
| position (remain stationary) in your field of view. That can
| cause you to miss seeing the car. By stopping then looking,
| the car will appear in motion against a still background
| making it much more likely to stand out.
| spurgu wrote:
| Sure, that's a good point, but it also applies to crossings
| without stop signs. :)
| InitialLastName wrote:
| At least where I am (NE US), there are very few
| intersections that are uncontrolled in all directions.
| senkora wrote:
| Bicycles can also be completely blocked by the car pillars
| due to this effect.
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| > We know the rules of society are arbitrary
|
| Author clearly has an underpowered pattern recognition module.
| andrey_utkin wrote:
| > Most society rules have a reason to exist.
|
| Quite some rules are affected by such reasons as "power begets
| power" - incumbent rulers/influencers tweaking the rulebook to
| reward incumbent powers and compliant populace and punish
| contenders.
|
| > Maybe, in the past century a few of that rules have become
| obsolete. But humanity is excellent at creating rules that
| makes things good enough to keep going.
|
| > There is nothing that makes a society change its rules like a
| change on the environment.
|
| From evolutionary perspective, I'd say people make up all sorts
| of changes, to a large degree at random, according to their own
| appetite. Then environment does its things, especially but not
| necessarily with factors not well understood by the societies,
| and wipes out the societies which can't survive in the new
| environment.
|
| For example, the USSR has played out the game of "more power to
| the center, more limitations for the public, more punishments
| for the dissenters" until it couldn't operate anymore. And
| increasingly lots of people have seen it coming, some of them
| decades in advance.
|
| Of course you can say "well but most people have survived and
| now the society has re-made itself", sure, but the society as
| in the set of definitive, durable, observable social constructs
| has ceased to exist.
| enkid wrote:
| The period directly before the fall of the Soviet Union was
| one of liberalization and opening up. If any thing, the
| history of the Soviet Union was on of decreasing repression
| (in fits and with some set backs) after Stalin's death. You
| also have to be really careful of historical predictions.
| Lots of people make lots of predictions. Most of them are
| wrong, and most of them aren't remembered.
| tolbish wrote:
| Liberals cause communism, liberals cause the end of
| communism--it's just hard to keep these vague political
| bogeymen straight sometimes.
| enkid wrote:
| Liberalization in this context has nothing to do with the
| current usage in American politics.
| tolbish wrote:
| Liberalization was blamed both before the Soviet Union
| was established, and again when it was dissolved. You
| should be thinking of the former usage of both "liberals"
| and "liberalization".
| romesmoke wrote:
| > The "everything is going to hell" theory. And, as often
| happens, without any proof or care to explain.
|
| How about an algorithmically-driven, heavily addicted, Brave-
| New-World-resembling globalized society?
|
| Why has the concept of 'proof' been lifted so many thousand
| kilometers off its place as a useful tool in scientific
| conduct, and placed over common sense?
| bmarquez wrote:
| The article mentions festivals as a "suspension of normal rules,
| mores, structures, and social distinction" and riots having a
| festive dimension. I don't know Girard's work enough to comment,
| but wonder if is a connection between Girard and Temporary
| Autonomous Zones[1] (which Burning Man is a large scale example
| of)
|
| As an aside, the article claims that online Burning Man failed
| because of it was too consumption based. It's not a good example
| since there were numerous issues including participants lacking
| VR headsets, userbase split up into different platforms (there
| was no singular "official" software), capacity constraints, etc.
| I tried it on burn night (Altspace VR) and the man was floating
| in mid-air as it was burning, so glitches too.
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone
| pugworthy wrote:
| As a fairly seasoned burner, I really had to shake my head at
| this article.
|
| I found it really odd that the only mention of Burning Man is how
| the online version attempts last year didn't work so well. No
| mention of how Burning Man fits into this "death spiral" idea -
| or how Burning Man fails to fall into that spiral.
|
| In particular, it makes this one comment stood out...
|
| > A true festival is not a tame affair. It is a suspension of
| normal rules, mores, structures, and social distinctions. Girard
| explains:
|
| OK yes, that sounds like Burning Man. But then it follows up with
| this part of Girard's explanation...
|
| > As one might expect, this destruction of differences is often
| accompanied by violence and strife. Subordinates hurl insults at
| their superiors; various social factions exchange gibes and
| abuse. Disputes rage in the midst of disorder.
|
| Violence and strife? Raging disputes? Hurled insults? (OK well
| there are those megaphone people.) Seriously, the author has
| never been to Burning Man. Or if they did go, it was a hugely
| different experience than what I and a lot of other people ever
| had.
|
| Maybe Burning Man just isn't a festival. Or maybe burners just
| festival differently. Or maybe the author is talking about
| something else.
| seph-reed wrote:
| There's a lot missing in the article.
|
| In particular, self-expression (IMO) has advanced a little bit.
| Hurling insults doesn't really mean much anymore, you can do it
| on any forum. But creating _your_ art... that means something.
| Something that can 't be said with words.
|
| It's really amazing how different peoples experiences can be
| though. Even going to the big burn, many never reach that
| "escape velocity."
| pugworthy wrote:
| > Even going to the big burn, many never reach that "escape
| velocity."
|
| Very true.
|
| And you bring up an interesting point in terms of creating
| your own art. There are festivals where people arrive and
| proclaim, "Entertain me!" Whereas there are others (like
| Burning Man) where people often come to express themselves
| and share their creations. Even those not bringing a lot
| often go just to experience the joy of the creations of
| others.
| gverrilla wrote:
| >The natural order is unraveling. Plagues, floods, droughts,
| political unrest, riots, and economic crises strike one upon the
| next
|
| Interesting concept of "natural order". What "natural" means in
| this context? What about "order"? Would lets say genocide be
| considered a part of natural order aswell?
|
| >Societies have faced such circumstances repeatedly throughout
| history, just as we face them today.
|
| Fake news. Doesn't understand History.
| f6v wrote:
| I love this meme [1]. We're living in the best society to date.
| On average, of course.
|
| [1]
| https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/aylts5/not_a_cellpho...
| ethn wrote:
| Or consider Wittgenstein. Maybe people attend festivals just
| because it's fun.
| secretsatan wrote:
| Stopped reading at `Systemic use of natural and alternative
| healing modalities could vastly reduce covid mortality`
| Trufa wrote:
| Why? You might disagree but the article is interesting?
|
| Can you also assert that there's nothing "natural" you can do
| that would systematically _help_ with COVID prevention?
| Quitting smoking, running, healthy inmune system with dieting
| and so on?
| Tenoke wrote:
| That's not particularly alternative, it's interventions
| completely accepted by the medical system.
| tokai wrote:
| Quitting smoking is not what natural means here. Natural &
| Alternative is a catch all term for holistic medicine.
| secretsatan wrote:
| That's not what he means and you know it.
| Trufa wrote:
| I'm honestly not sure what he means. I may disagree with
| most, but I'm just surprised about people stopping reading
| when they hear something they disagree with.
|
| It's not even the central point of the article.
| spurgu wrote:
| Yeah this is a major problem in the political landscape
| overall. Like for example refusing to read anything by
| conservatives just because you happen to disagree with
| them on abortion issues. You're going to be a) missing
| out on a lot of insights and b) even worse, create a
| divide where you can't even understand the other side
| anymore just because you outright refuse to hear them
| out.
|
| I tripped on that sentence myself but continued reading
| since it seemed like a minor point to the actual story
| and I wasn't disappointed.
| eplanit wrote:
| It's stopping reading at a sentence dripping with pseudo
| intellectualism. When writers try too hard to sound
| intelligent and erudite it's off-putting, and a
| "bullshit" indicator.
| worldsayshi wrote:
| I agree that it puts me off as well but it's also feels a
| bit like a no true Scotsman fallacy. If we're always on
| the lookout for "bad words" then we will eventually set
| up impossible standards for how we speak.
| [deleted]
| worldsayshi wrote:
| Feels like you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater a
| bit there.
| dang wrote:
| Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to Hacker
| News.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| Physical exercise, breathwork, healthy diets and diverse immune
| exposure all seem rather "holistic" and yet seem rather likely
| to reduce covid mortality -- perhaps much more so than, say,
| Remdesvir
| dandellion wrote:
| > Physical exercise, breathwork, healthy diets and diverse
| immune exposure
|
| I've gone to "mainstream healing" doctors and they always
| recommend exercise, have a good diet, etc. When people say
| "alternative healing" that's not usually what they mean.
| rozab wrote:
| When people refer to natural or alternative medicine, they're
| not usually talking about common sense lifestyle changes
| universally endorsed by the medical establishment. That's
| just regular medicine.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| You'd think so, but no. My father had amazing cancer care
| but the idea of prescribing him yoga or actually any kind
| of light physical fitness program was considered
| "integrative" medicine and basically outside of the
| mainstream. This is changing. But "regular medicine" is, at
| present, very much _not_ a holistic healing practice.
| [deleted]
| blobbers wrote:
| "None of the problems facing humanity today are technically
| difficult to solve. Holistic farming methods could heal soil and
| water, sequester carbon, increase biodiversity, and actually
| increase yields to swiftly solve various ecological and
| humanitarian crises. Simply declaring a moratorium on fishing in
| half the world's oceans would heal them too"
|
| What kind of sanctimonious BS is this. I stopped reading because
| his thinking did not appear to be worth my time. And I came here
| to the comments to check if I was correct or not...
| beckman466 wrote:
| > sanctimonious BS
|
| Ah yes, using big words and no actual critique. Can you please
| put more effort into this and explain why this post is
| "sanctimonious BS" to you?
| 3np wrote:
| > As for Burning Man and the transformational music & art
| festivals, these have exercised some of the festival's authentic
| function - until recently, when their exile to online platforms
| stripped them of any transcendental possibility. Much as the
| organizers are doing their best to keep the idea of the festival
| alive, online festivals risk becoming just another show for
| consumption. One clicks into them, sits back, and watches. In-
| person festivals are different. They start with a journey, then
| one must undergo an ordeal (waiting in line for hours). Finally
| you get to the entrance temple (the registration booth), where a
| small divination ritual (checking the list) is performed to
| determine your fitness to attend (by having made the appropriate
| sacrifice - a payment - beforehand). Thereupon, the priest or
| priestess in the booth confers upon the celebrant a special
| talisman to wear around the wrist at all times. After all this,
| the subconscious mind understands one has entered a separate
| realm, where indeed, to a degree at least, normal distinctions,
| relations, and rules do not apply. Online events of any kind rest
| safely in the home. Whatever the content, the body recognizes it
| as a show.
|
| I don't buy it. Surely there are still burns and de-facto lawless
| (as long as safety of others is not violated, and by that I'm not
| talking about social distancing or masks) festivals happening
| worldwide still? It's just that most government/corporate-backed
| ordeals, and huge (1k+ participants) events are called off.
|
| Here in JP (an otherwise famously very restrictive and normative
| society), meat-space outdoors raves/festivals and rainbow-like
| gatherings have been thriving during the pandemic, even moreso
| now during the summer, likely due to the nerfing of indoor club
| events.
|
| May be the case for other scenes as well; this is just the one
| I'm personally familiar with presently.
|
| From my limited perspective the festival scene is more active
| than ever: There are multiple 1-to-3-day raves/music festivals
| happening every week within 2h drive from where I'm at in the
| sleepy conforming boonies, states of emergency or not. There is
| certainly code, but I argue at least the events my friend groups
| have been frequenting are easily breaking social norms enough
| that they're still valid under their definition. They may be
| smaller, but they're more in numbers and frequency.
|
| From what I hear, the fetish subscenes also alive, active, and
| well.
|
| If it still happens here, I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case
| most everywhere. I suspect the author hasn't been seriously
| surveying their locale.
|
| (I certainly don't go rave every week; I know people who do,
| though. I gave up trying to preach to people that they should act
| COVID-safer. Party people gonna party people)
| mxfh wrote:
| Ironically COVID might save festival culture from total
| megacorp commercialization for another generation while giving
| back outdoor rave their clandestine feel, While being
| comparably safe compared to indoor booze-fests.
|
| Regarding online, the emerging 'just chatting' Twitch rave
| scene is something to behold in it's anarchism.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| Could you give me some pointers to find them on twitch in
| that category? Do they use tags or common words in the
| titles? "Rave"?
| mxfh wrote:
| A german article on that phenomenon is here:
| https://www.dj-lab.de/reportage-die-fabelhafte-welt-der-
| twit...
|
| Yes a bit german heavy, but quite remarkle in contrast with
| the polished stuff like `cercle`.
| jkhdigital wrote:
| I think the point of that passage is that "online" festivals no
| longer provide the function of the archetypal festival and are
| reduced to mere entertainment. Clearly, _many_ festivals
| suffered this fate during the pandemic, and individuals
| accustomed to attending them had to go without or find
| alternatives.
|
| Also, I'd argue that niche or underground "festival" activity
| doesn't really live up the archetypal ideal anyway--traditional
| festivals cut across the societal spectrum.
| motohagiography wrote:
| Appears the writing is on the wall, as it were. Some years after
| Girard, Nassim Taleb riffed on a similar theme he called
| "suppressed volatility," where he started with risk being akin to
| a kind of energy that could not be created or destroyed, and the
| inevitable consequence of suppressing volatility was a kind of
| mean reversion or explosion on the other direction. I'd never
| consider Taleb as simpler or less wordy than anyone, but in this
| case, he seems more succinct than Girard on a similar topic.
|
| Carnivals and festivals today are still role reversals, where
| some Burners described it to me as for a week in the desert,
| artists and working people become administrators and facilitators
| where in regular life they may have little formal authority in
| their own roles, but here they are the volunteer leaders and make
| the whole thing go, and then white collar people who spend their
| lives projecting an edgeless affect can walk around naked,
| anonymous, and high. No doubt it's more than that, but as
| something that puts the carnal in carnival, it was a useful
| description.
|
| Personally, I think Girardian warnings of scapegoating rituals
| are late arriving words for a greater dynamic that appears to
| have been set in motion, as though if we've heard of his ideas
| and work, it's because we already needed to know them. The
| author's admonition that storm clouds are gathering is a
| pervasive sentiment in conversations I've had lately, but to
| extend the metaphor, everyone thinks they need to prepare for a
| storm, without considering that what they should be worried about
| is a flood and its aftermath.
|
| I wish festivals could help relieve some of the tectonic social
| pressures of the last few years, but as he points out, whether
| they are sanctioned events with artists, or just riots and worse,
| they're going to happen one way or another.
| schemathings wrote:
| When I returned from my first burn I described it to friends as
| a carnival where everyone brings their own ride, and bonus
| points if its something ridiculous you imagined when you were a
| kid at your first carnival (a fire-breathing octopus for
| example)
| jostylr wrote:
| It reminds me of the discussion of forest fires and whether to
| let the smaller fires burn to avoid the big, devastating fires.
| And then there is the question of intentionally starting fires to
| do the role of the smaller ones.
|
| Given how that debate is not even agreed upon, it is hard to
| believe that one could come to much of an understanding of the
| Festival and its need with humans.
| readflaggedcomm wrote:
| >Every human being knows, if only unconsciously, that we are not
| the roles and personae we occupy in the cultural drama of life.
|
| Reminds me of Catcher in the Rye, only older and more cynical.
|
| The author should reconsider "connection to a reality that is
| non-conventional": the physical activity he lists is only non-
| conventional to a select few, especially in the past. His
| evidence feels like an argument for festivals as a ward against
| idleness, not as a relief valve of simulated violence, which is
| poorly-justified.
|
| Perhaps Girard put too much faith in what "genuine artists" sense
| out of something like a harvest festival, which is the leisure of
| hard-working laborers. The author might consider that daily labor
| could be more violent than playful festivals, and what Girard
| sensed may have been relief from that, not from a crisis averted.
| bsenftner wrote:
| He's on to something. The prose drops little passages easy to
| criticize, but the overall essay has good reasoning. I strongly
| agree the events one attends creating an alternative reality are
| more therapeutic and necessary than many are willing to admit.
| mojuba wrote:
| I also liked the idea that true festivals (and riots) can serve
| as a regular reminder what it means to not have order in the
| society. It's a big immersive "what if" show.
| smackeyacky wrote:
| Where did you find any nugget of wisdom hiding in this
| dangerous bunkum? Holistc healing and organic farming are what
| we abandoned so we wouldn't starve to death or mistake sepsis
| for being bedevilled. There isn't any reason in any of it, the
| whole essay is abandonment of reason.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Holistic healing and organic farming haven't been abandoned
| at all, industrial farming and pharmaceuticals have merely
| dwarfed them thanks to its economic efficiency.
|
| But building soil and mixing a little wu with your morning
| stretches never hurt anyone (you do stretch in the morning,
| don't you?)
| jeegsy wrote:
| You could almost rework this to be a promotion for "The Purge"
| movies
| sandworm101 wrote:
| The author has obviously never been to Comicon. The festivals are
| still there, they just aren't manditory anymore. We no longer
| inist that everyone enjoy the same setpiece festivals at the
| government-approved times and locations. Compared to the past, we
| are now all free to participate in or even create our own
| festivals.
| mbg721 wrote:
| This is mixing up the cause and the effect. What's happening
| isn't society fracturing for lack of occasions to break the
| rules, it's that society can't invent occasions to break the
| rules if it can't agree what the rules are. Which side of the
| culture war is going to be given up when "violent unanimity" is
| achieved at the end of the festival?
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(page generated 2021-07-12 23:01 UTC)