[HN Gopher] The Cultural Implications of Silence Around the Worl...
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The Cultural Implications of Silence Around the World (2020)
Author : tchalla
Score : 67 points
Date : 2021-07-11 14:50 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.rw-3.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.rw-3.com)
| sovietmudkipz wrote:
| In my experience at a software company located in the Midwest, I
| find most engineers engage in a hard listening culture. They have
| things that may want to say but do not want to say their thoughts
| for a myriad of reasons.
|
| My (soft) heuristic towards engagement in meetings is to call on
| others and ask their thoughts. Sometimes I get a squeamish non-
| answer but sometimes I get a answer worth it's weight in gold.
|
| There are some who engage in a hard speaking culture, too. My
| heuristic operates to hear from everyone, when practical and
| possible.
| porknubbins wrote:
| What is meant by hard listening? I've never heard that. If
| engineers are reluctant to speak up its probably because years
| of experience that management/regular people just wants
| yes/no/we can do that type answers. Giving technical answers to
| things is sometimes perceived as aggressive or intimidating
| because the people who are supposed to be in charge often can't
| follow all details. It takes a rare boss to truly trust the
| engineers.
| draw_down wrote:
| I find that in tech or general corporate America, your opinion
| is requested but only when it falls within certain bounds. Your
| view is desired when it is appropriately positive and sunny;
| when you see clouds on the horizon that's to be kept to
| yourself. The extent to which this dynamic is present differs
| of course.
|
| What you're construing as a squeamish non-answer may be more
| politically shrewd than you care to admit, or it may be that
| the person has previously spoken their mind and gotten their
| hand slapped. Once bitten twice shy.
|
| Especially in the context of this piece which attempts to get
| people to see each other a bit more fully, instead of jumping
| to conclusions, I think it's worth bearing in mind that there
| can be more than meets the eye.
| [deleted]
| psychomugs wrote:
| Cue DFW's rant on silence and Pulp Fiction's uncomfortable
| silence scene [1, 2].
|
| The author mentions Japan but doesn't mention aizuchi, a constant
| backchanneling that signals attentiveness that I'd classify as
| the opposite of silent pontificating [3].
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/iGLzWdT7vGc?t=1794
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnVX-uv-QPc
|
| [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aizuchi
| bellyfullofbac wrote:
| Yet another misuse of the word "Bahasa" as if that's shorthand
| for "Indonesian".
|
| "Bahasa" literally just means "language", the Indonesian language
| doesn't have eponyms, so to say "He is Australian" you have to
| include the noun "person", so "Dia orang Australia" (Sound
| familiar? "orang utan" means "jungle person"). Same deal with
| language/bahasa.
|
| People saying "I speak Bahasa" sounds to me like people saying "I
| speak Sprache" to say they know German or "I speak langue" for
| French. It's eye-rollingly obnoxious.
| tombh wrote:
| Eye-rollingly obnoxious? I've literally heard native
| Indonesians refer to their language as just "bahasa", though
| admittedly those same speakers told me off for doing it myself.
| So whilst I agree "bahasa" has a commonly incorrect usage I
| don't think it is due to the typical "White Ignorance". I mean
| at least the author actually went to the effort of learning a
| non-European language right?
|
| It's like "literally" in English has _changed_ its meaning.
| Yeah of course it originally meant non-figuratively, but it is
| clear to all that value language as a medium of communication
| (rather than a measure of intellectual status) that it now has
| another meaning as an intensifier.
| DemocracyFTW wrote:
| > I've literally heard native Indonesians refer to their
| language as just "bahasa", though admittedly those same
| speakers told me off for doing it myself
|
| The second part could be indicative of this being usage only
| acceptable for 'insiders' to employ, and the first part could
| mean but does not have to mean that outsiders / speakers of
| other languages / in other countries could and should use
| those very words. For example, in an American context one
| often hears "this country" to mean the USA, but that cannot
| be transported into contexts based outside the USA.
| Similarly, there's urinara /uri nara/ lit. 'our country' >
| "Korea" in Korean but you wouldn't say "I'm flying to
| Urinara" or "I'm flying to Our Country" when you're about to
| board a plane to Seoul. In Japanese and Taiwan, the Japanese
| language and the Chinese language are often referred to as
| Guo Yu lit. 'national language' > "Japanese" or "Chinese"
| (depending on the language used). Of course you can't
| normally say "Wo Bu Hui Jiang Guo Yu " in Chinese to mean "I
| don't speak Japanese" except when the context is clear and
| the listener can be expected that Guo Yu may mean Japanese
| in Japanese.
|
| So Indonesians using "bahasa" in Indonesian doesn't
| necessarily license using that word in English.
| elefanten wrote:
| This doesn't make sense. If the word/phrase expresses a
| relative relationship to it's user, then that works on a
| per user basis. Eg- Non-Americans can say "this country"
| about their own countries. If the word/phrase is a generic
| term in a given language, it often ends up having fixed
| context --- eg "la Raza" as used by Latin American
| communities.
|
| Besides, the original commenter denied it's used at all. Gp
| implies otherwise.
|
| Broadly speaking, this whole business of trying to "own"
| words on an identity basis is poisonous, corrosive and an
| abuse of the tool of language.
| tombh wrote:
| That's a good point. Now that I think about it, the
| Indonesians from whom I heard "bahasa" were actually also
| native Javanese speakers. Bahasa Indonesia is of course a
| lingua franca, and an increasingly imposing one for
| minority languages, so maybe that could be a possible
| source for your point that there are different connotations
| for insiders and outsiders.
|
| I didn't get your point about "this country". The only
| thing I know is how it's inappropriate outside the USA, or
| in a global context, to use America to mean the USA, as of
| course the rest of the Americas also exist.
| ithkuil wrote:
| And don't forget Bahasa Malaysia
| ta1234567890 wrote:
| Interesting. It's similar to the use of the word "chai" in the
| US. It originally means tea, but in the US it is used to mean a
| specific blend/preparation (usually masala), so they say "I'll
| have a chai tea", which literally means "I'll have a tea tea".
| 8note wrote:
| I thought masala meant spice mix?
|
| Spiced tea is a bit more specific than tea tea, but not much
| more
| booleandilemma wrote:
| See also: ATM machine, PIN number
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| "built on NT Technology" :)
| grogenaut wrote:
| carne asada grilled steak burrito for me
| pksebben wrote:
| To heavy for my taste, I'll have the ahi tuna.
| socialdemocrat wrote:
| Nordics and say Japanese may be listening cultures but in such a
| profoundly different way that it is hard to put them in the same
| group.
|
| Japanese and Koreans speak in a very indirect and polite fashion.
| Us Nordics tend to be very blunt and direct. But we share this
| with the Dutch and Germans.
|
| For me the main dividers are between direct and indirect
| speakers.
|
| Like Americans like to keep things a bit fluffy and casual until
| they know you better or have sort of warmed up in the
| conversation. We are often opposite. We like going straight to
| the point and do the fluffy stuff last as way of ending a
| conversation.
| mathewsanders wrote:
| I have a background in research, and moving to the United States
| I've had some situations where I've coached people in a team
| who've never directly talked to their customers. Something I
| always have to do with Americans is to practice getting them
| comfortable with silence.
|
| A tip I stole from someone else (can't remember who otherwise I'd
| credit) when asking a question in research interview is to stay
| silent until you're feeling uncomfortable, and then count slowly
| _another_ 3 seconds before asking a follow up prompt.
|
| The majority of the time, people do have useful things to say if
| you are willing to give them the space to speak.
| sudasana wrote:
| > In the 6th century, Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu claimed that
| "Silence is a source of great strength."
|
| 6th century BCE, attributed.
| imchillyb wrote:
| Sounds like a speech he made up for his children at the dinner
| table.
| beckingz wrote:
| Wisdom that is motivated by necessity and frivolousness. This
| is the way.
| nayuki wrote:
| > Given the different ways silence is used in China (a listening
| culture) and Canada (a speaking culture) ...
|
| I observed the opposite. When I speak Chinese to Chinese people
| in Toronto, Canada - friends/family/business - I find that they
| speak faster, are more likely to interrupt or talk over me, and
| tend to push their viewpoints instead of waiting to hear yours.
|
| I've interacted with Chinese vs. Canadian bankers, salespeople,
| doctors, etc., and the contrast is noticeable for me.
|
| This isn't a statement about whether one way is better (e.g. I
| find the Chinese are more straightforward with their intentions,
| whereas Canadians leave more things implied); this is just an
| observation about tendencies.
| BadInformatics wrote:
| Yeah, this is true in China as well IME. If anything, the
| silence/noise ratio is closer to India than e.g. Japan. Perhaps
| TFA is extrapolating from experiences in other East Asian
| countries?
| booleandilemma wrote:
| Incidentally, one of the most high-strung, anxious people I've
| ever met was a Buddhist. There was nothing Zen-like about this
| person.
| billyjobob wrote:
| That makes sense if he was a convert to Buddhism, because
| Buddhism in the West is marketed as a treatment for anxious
| people.
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