[HN Gopher] "One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead"
___________________________________________________________________
"One Day Longer and Those 13 Boys Would Be Dead"
Author : Tomte
Score : 646 points
Date : 2021-07-10 12:29 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.zeit.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.zeit.de)
| jtchang wrote:
| It's only after the rescue that they can give retrospectives on
| exactly how difficult things were at the time. My utmost respect
| goes out to each of these heroes for doing what needed to be done
| even at the possible cost of their own lives.
| CRConrad wrote:
| I'm not even going to click through to any fricking article or
| video: Just reading the comments here gives me quite enough
| claustrophobic shivers.
| sdfsadfjaslj wrote:
| https://archive.is/j6410
| dt3ft wrote:
| Thank you.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| That's only one page.
| chris_overseas wrote:
| There's a link to page 2 at the bottom https://archive.is/o/j
| 6410/https://www.zeit.de/wissen/2021-0...
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| It redirected to a paywall when I clicked it. (But it was
| that exact link, before the redirect. Strange.)
| tpmx wrote:
| Someone archived it too, eventually. Looks like
| archive.is/archive.today rewrites links to URLs it has
| archived.
| detaro wrote:
| and if you click the link to the second page you get to ...
| the second page.
| [deleted]
| sandebert wrote:
| Season one of the podcast "Against all odds" is also about this.
|
| https://wondery.com/shows/against-the-odds/
| fab1an wrote:
| The most harrowing thing I have read in a long time. I can't even
| begin to fathom the immense bravery of these divers - and that of
| the boys. I didn't really follow the Musk bit of the story, but
| the fact that he had the audacity to shitpost about any of these
| guys make me think vastly less of him (and I'm usually in the
| Musk-respecter camp)
| throwaway2048 wrote:
| Lets not make this comments section about an idiots
| disparagement of a hero.
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| >I didn't really follow the Musk bit of the story
|
| I did, and it's shocking how something only a few years away,
| and so publicly recorded, has been so muddled. There was this
| thai journalist I had been following on twitter to get all
| details on the whole situation, pity I forgot the account.
|
| anyhoo, here is the cliffnotes version from my memory,
| apologies if I got something wrong, I'm not a journalist, can't
| be arsed to dig through the old tweets (but a more tech savvy
| person could probably do so easily, they are still there iirc):
|
| ----
|
| 1- people on twitter start asking musk for help, and a thai
| telecommunication/satellite/something CEO contacts him for
| help, Musk's own employees personally asks him and volunteer to
| help, Musk decided to dive in.
|
| 2- First option they decided (and something everyone was
| tweeting at him) was to use his Boring tunnel Drills, he flew
| his boring tunnel team on the SpaceX jet to check, they
| realized ground was too unstable to drill, so that that option
| was closed, but the team was still there, with their geology
| sensing equipment and what not.
|
| 3- Iirc tesla gave some powerwalls to run the base camp
| somewhere in the timeline, but don't recall any other help for
| that musk company.
|
| 4- They are in discussion with the rescue team, the main issue
| is that the kids might be malnourish and not able to make the
| journey, you can't send wheelchairs and stretchers, so Musk's
| team is asked to make some alternatives
|
| 5- key point is that it was a two way collaborative process,
| Musk's team didn't unilaterally offer his "submarine", iirc,
| Musk shared emails from the rescue team leader to that affect.
|
| 6- the first product made was NOT the submarine. There is a
| video, where tesla or spacex suppliers (i.e a seperate company,
| but affiliated with one of musk's business) made this really
| cool rubber/plastic/something stretcher/wrap like item for
| free, that would help carry a weak child through the tunnel and
| float in the watery bits, but iirc it was not used because time
| was running out.
|
| In the analogy, this was the wheel chair equivalent, since the
| child was supposed to hold himself together somewhat, and was
| an aid, the child would have to be submerged and breath from an
| oxygen tank, but the aid would help him bind to a rescuer and
| not sink or float away, not be too big a burden on the rescuer.
|
| 7-The Submarine was the a quicker and more urgent solution, and
| was for a child that was totally unconscious. This is the
| ambulance stretcher equivalent, where the child simply has no
| control. The idea was proposed by the spacex/boring tunnel team
| (they were the same company basically then) to quickly re-
| furbish and use an existing falcon tube.
|
| Here is a quick reminder, the Tunnel was essentially like the
| Letter M, and there was tight points and lower water points,
| The "submarine" was NOT meant for the tighter points, and only
| for the lower and longer water-logged bits, where the child
| could not be presumed to even breath from an oxygen tank.
|
| The idea was to ONLY use the submarine (hence the name) in some
| of the longer bits, where the child was to be locked in with
| the necessary oxygen, and then removed once again, especially
| during the tight bits, where the submarine wouldn't, as many
| internet sleuths pointed out, fit.
|
| this was tool of absolute desperation, and this why the rescue
| team had been in contact with musk's team, time was running out
| and they feared the children wouldn't be able to move on their
| on. Luckily it wasn't needed, but there was a genuine fear.
|
| 8- But then the rescue happened, and the submarine was not
| used, since things were not that bad as feared, but still, it
| was anything goes till that point. Things start to unravel
| after that, since because the item was not used, people thought
| the item was useless.
|
| 9-vernon said some unkind things about musks's submarine (not
| sure if warranted), musk flips his cool and says some REALLY
| bad things about vernon (totally not warranted), some shyster
| gets involved and fools musk into thinking vernon was an
| actually pedo (dude can land rockets, but he was not so smart
| on the conman front) the lawsuit happens, musk wins because
| insulting people is not a crime in the US, and so here we are.
|
| -----
|
| E&OE
|
| I think people forget that behind the rescue operation were
| actual people, not named musk or vernon.
|
| first of all were the actual thai kids, whose sitaution was
| getting precarious day by dat. Secondly were the rescuers, who
| were worried about the rescue and were looking at any and all
| who could help. then there were the people working in musk's
| team.
|
| One of the people was a thai spacex employee for example, and
| this was personal to him, and he was responsible for getting
| musk involved, iirc. the submarine idea was not musk's, but his
| spacex employees, and all he did was give them a blank cheque
| in using company resources.
|
| yes musk was a an absolute cnut in insulting vernon that way,
| and in no way justifies his crass remarks, but behind him
| flipping his cap, was him being insulted on behalf of not just
| himself but his employees and his suppliers, who had
| volunteered for free, and were not deserving of vernon's unkind
| remarks(though again, simply not comparable to musks's remarks,
| he should just have shut the fcuk up)
|
| Life moves on, those spacex/tesla/boring company employees and
| suppliers have moved on, heck even vernon and musk have moved
| on after the lawsuit, but we are all still stuck here in this
| strange world of half truths and misinformation.
|
| I think the real victims of this whole musk-vernon fiasco has
| been the capacity for silicon valley nerds to volunteer their
| skills, I doubt those spacex/boring tunnel employees/suppliers
| would ever venture to volunteer on such a scale again, much
| easier to keep quiet and work the beaten path, at soup kitchens
| or some "approved" setup like UN etc, much safer options to
| give back.
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| here is what i can dig up, will update as I find more
| sources:
|
| ---
|
| Here are all of elon's tweet's during the time period:
|
| (23-Jun-2018 to 11-Jul-2018)
|
| https://twitter.com/search?q=(from%3Aelonmusk)%20until%3A201.
| ..
|
| ----
|
| here is the email between elon and richard stanton, the
| rescue lead: where richard seems to urged elon to continue
| the work on the mini sub
|
| https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016684366083190785
|
| ---
|
| unless I am mistaken, this is thai billionaire guy:
|
| @JamesWorldSpace
|
| https://twitter.com/search?q=(from%3Ajamesworldspace)%20unti.
| ..
|
| you can check his account for details I guess
|
| ----
|
| this is the inflatable raft that I was thinking of, made by
| the suppliers
|
| https://lostcoastoutpost.com/2018/jul/7/elon-musks-plane-
| was...
|
| ----
|
| I _think_ this is the thai journalist i was following back
| then
|
| https://twitter.com/thanr
|
| https://twitter.com/search?q=(from%3Athanr)%20until%3A2018-0.
| ..
| FullKirby wrote:
| Thank you for posting this!
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| No problem! It depresses me that something so recent, so...
| open and easily accessible (literally a click away) is so
| misunderstood, what hope do we have of countering
| misinformation on a larger scale, if even the nerdy techy
| folks of HN can't be bother do counter misinformation.
|
| It doesn't have to be pro or anti musk, you just have to
| look at the facts
|
| ____
|
| I was just on Twitter DM (magic of technology, you can just
| talk to a rando person a thousand mile away now!) with the
| Thai journalist (@thanr) who had been reporting on site on
| behalf of the BBC or some other press, and he told me there
| are so many other facts not publicly know, like the scope
| of the cooperation between Musk, The State Dept, The
| American Embassy in Thailand and the Thai government. I've
| requested him to perhaps write some article or a book or
| something to detail those.
|
| it's understandable if not knowing _those_ not easily
| google-able facts were perhaps the cause of the confusion.
| But not doing a simple tweet search? The man is a prolific
| tweeter, why not just... go read what he said, and make
| your opinion on that? Good, Bad whatever, but atleast you
| should be fully informed.
|
| neither Musk nor Vernon come clean out of this mess, but
| atleast there is some clarity to be gained.
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Vernon Unsworth. He sued Musk for libel in the United States
| and lost. Musk not only called him "pedo guy" on Twitter, but
| implied he had married a child bride, when he hadn't, and later
| hired a private investigator to dry to dig up dirt on Unsworth,
| which found nothing. Musk also sent this letter to Buzzfeed
| where he doubled down. He thought it was off the record, and
| says some terrible things:
| https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/elon-musk-thai-...
|
| It came out later that the private investigator was scamming
| Elon Musk, and lied to him about finding damaging information.
| https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/oct/08/elon-musk...
|
| Bizarrely, Unsworth's lawyer was L Lin Wood, famous for later
| apparently having a mental breakdown and supporting conspiracy
| theories accusing chief justice John Roberts of pedophilia and
| murder, and being asked to undergo a mental examination by the
| state bar of Georgia.
|
| L Lin Wood's handling of the Unsworth trial was widely panned
| as incompetent. Unsworth is clearly a hero, and Musk inserting
| himself into that situation and permanently tainting Unsworth's
| name was unconscionable.
|
| https://reason.com/2020/12/31/pro-trump-lawyer-tries-to-impl...
|
| https://reason.com/2021/01/31/treating-lin-woods-wild-conspi...
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-defamation-win-mis...
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> supporting conspiracy theories accusing chief justice John
| Roberts of pedophilia and murder
|
| I miss the good old days when such accusations were extreme.
| Reporters would hesitate to say the word pedophile on air.
| Airing such an accusation would almost certainly trigger a
| serious defamation lawsuit. News outlets would instead talk
| of unspecified personal accusations. Now, thanks to a certain
| popular letter-based conspiracy theory, calling any public
| figure a "satan-worshipping pedophile" doesn't even raise
| eyebrows.
|
| Is is "popular letter-based conspiracy" or "letter-based
| popular conspiracy"? I'm slipping on my royal order of
| adjectives.
| Majora320 wrote:
| The former.
| incrudible wrote:
| If the accusation is ludicrous enough, the "artistic
| license" defense can work. Alex Jones has used it. Tucker
| Carlson has used it. Rachel Maddow has used it. There's a
| difference between serious factual reporting and
| shitposting on Twitter. The fact that _some_ readers might
| not be able to distinguish the two may be disturbing, but
| it should not guide jurisdiction.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| This doesn't excuse Elon slandering Vernon Unsworth, but
| didn't Vernon talk shit about Elon's good faith attempt at
| making a submarine to try to rescue the people?
| ergocoder wrote:
| So what?
|
| You can call each other names and fight.
|
| Musk has gone beyond that and accused Vernon of being a
| pedophile and marrying child bride.
|
| Maybe it was the heat of the moment. But then some days (or
| weeks) later he followed up with "I'd bet my signed dollar
| (that Vernon is a pedo)" (or something like that).
|
| Musk intended to destroy Vernon with the pedophile
| accusation. There is no doubt of that. This is pre-
| meditated plan to destroy a person with the pedophile
| accusation.
|
| For some reason, there's no outrage from tech companies
| though. People are still praising Musk as usual. I'm
| looking at you all the CEOs like Jack Dorsey and etc.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| I'm not debating that Musk slandered him, and I think
| Musk should have payed out in court. However I still
| think Vernon's response to Musk's submarine solution was
| distasteful. Instead of saying "sorry, this won't work
| because xyz", or "we'll try that if our original plan
| fails", he told Musk to "stick it where it hurts". Not a
| very professional response.
| ducktorcoolass wrote:
| Oh, so what? It's totally normal to make up baseless
| accusations, abuse accuse some guy of some specified
| sexual crime and try to destroy their life and
| reputation. This is normal, and good. The shining example
| of one of the greatest things our beautiful culture has
| given us. The ability to sidestep our ageing legal system
| and hang men who deserve it anyway for stuff we choose to
| accuse them of. Thank you to 3rd wave feminism and metoo
| for normalizing this long overdue vigilantism against the
| evil patriarchy that's been the only thing blocking and
| destroying women from their potential forever. So what if
| some "Innocents" get caught up in the cross fire? Who
| cares if Musk wields the same axe? The more important
| thing is that we have a chance to do it to them for once.
| We have to destroy male confidence and get them running
| scared, that's the only power we have over that
| pernicious make privilege and false sexual entitlement to
| women's bodies. We need to use this scalpel to remake
| evil traditional male sexuality to not be toxic to modern
| women, that's the only thing that matters, whatever the
| cost. How is that not obvious?
| cma wrote:
| Didn't Elon disrupt the whole operation at one point,
| traveling there to get footage or an Instagram Story video?
|
| It is easy to see what is going on and that it isn't in
| good faith. Look a his breached commitments during the
| Flint water crisis (filter every home to below FDA levels),
| coronavius (produce ventilators), Peurto Rico huricane
| aftermath, and more. He as a common pattern with these kind
| of events.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| I'm not familiar with his commitments during flint or the
| hurricane, but his behavior during COVID was despicable.
| I'm pretty sure he fought to try and prevent work from
| home, and constantly downplayed the severity of the
| disease.
| cma wrote:
| "Please consider this a commitment that I will fund
| fixing the water in any house in Flint that has water
| contamination above FDA levels. No kidding."
|
| https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1017149641991680002
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Not to mention reopened in defiance of Alameda County
| regulations.
|
| And Vernon did not initiate the Twitter fight, he gave an
| interview and suggested Musk "stick his submarine where
| it hurts". Musk took to Twitter where he has millions of
| followers to strike back.
|
| The tweets are deleted but somebody saved a screenshot: h
| ttps://twitter.com/RickyReports/status/101859724527555788
| 8?...
| [deleted]
| lupire wrote:
| Now you are slandering Unsworth.
| [deleted]
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| I'm really not. He told Elon to "stick it where it
| hurts", which was why I said he talked shit to Elon.
| Again, I'm not trying to deny that Elon is the bad guy
| here. But Vernon can be the good guy in a situation and
| still have made a distasteful mistake (talking
| disrespectfully).
| Peritract wrote:
| He didn't 'talk shit' about a 'good faith attempt'.
|
| Unsworth - who knew the cave system - said that Musk's idea
| was impractical and a PR stunt. Both of those claims are
| valid and came from a reliable source. During a crisis,
| there is no particular need to be polite to people getting
| in the way.
| postmeta wrote:
| https://www.gq.com/story/musk-submarine-where-it-hurts
| seems kinda rude, or just british /jk!
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| I thought he called Elon name's on Twitter and Elon
| reciprocated (two wrongs don't make a right). Maybe I am
| wrong. Even if his idea was impractical, I was under the
| impression that he made a best effort attempt (I doubt he
| willingly chose something impractical) and the solution
| they chose was the better one (divers).
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Musk started the Twitter fight after Unsworth gave an
| interview: https://twitter.com/RickyReports/status/101859
| 7245275557888?...
| [deleted]
| rtkwe wrote:
| The sub was a bad plan from the beginning, one of the main
| issues with the rescue was the narrow twisty path through
| the cave. This wasn't unknown when Musk was touting his
| sub. Also even if someone was talking shit about his sub
| and it wasn't a bad idea, that doesn't justify insinuating
| they're a pedophile...
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| Hence " This doesn't excuse Elon slandering Vernon
| Unsworth". I still think Vernon's response to a good
| faith attempt at solving the problem "stick it where it
| hurts" was distasteful.
| rtkwe wrote:
| I'm think it wasn't really a good faith effort because
| there were such clear problems with trying to shove a
| rigid steel tube through the cave that it was clearly
| wasted attention/effort. There was a lot of criticism
| during the whole thing that it wasn't doing any good
| except to get Musk more attention.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| Fair point
| postmeta wrote:
| https://twitter.com/QTRResearch/status/1017914936289349635
| sounds kinda rude, but not worth a reply
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Musk's submarine was a joke. The video of it shows it was
| clearly too large and too rigid to maneuver through the
| caves. Musk said they would make a video showing the
| submarine going from point a to b, but never did. Watch these
| videos of Unsworth both after the rescue and the trial and
| compare them to Musk's response. It was absolutely sickening.
|
| https://youtu.be/uDP6_4jUmiQ
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-50698294
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHJZGcj5KHU
| mseidl wrote:
| I'll have to find the video, but he said that sub wouldn't
| have made it through the first 50m.
| geomark wrote:
| I saw and touched the sub; it was featured at a science
| expo in Bangkok not long after the rescue. It was a metal
| tube with some plexiglass plates on it with air valves
| mounted in them. I'm sure there was some engineering
| involved, but didn't seem at all impressive.
|
| My son was a big fan of Elon, the "cool rocket guy". But
| after his comments about Unsworth he asked me "Why did Elon
| say that stuff about the man who is a hero?" My son is a
| Thai boy living in Thailand, close the the same age as the
| boys who were rescued. Sadly I had to walk back the idea
| that Elon was a good role model.
|
| I thought Unsworth should have sued Elon in Thailand. It
| wouldn't have meant much since Elon would never travel here
| again. But in Thailand defamation is a criminal offense
| that carries jail time. And since Unsworth is a national
| hero there's little doubt the court would have found in his
| favor and Elon would have had an outstanding arrest
| warrant. Again, wouldn't mean much unless Elon forgot about
| it and ended up traveling to or through a country that
| would arrest him on behalf of Thailand.
| loceng wrote:
| So now you can update your son based on another comment
| we know that Elon was lied to by a private investigator -
| and seems safe to assume his comments based on that
| faulty/made up information;
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27796249
|
| Elon is a good role model, he's not perfect though. I'm
| not sure why so many people blindly put him on a pedestal
| assuming he should be superhuman - especially at the
| abnormal level of pressures and responsibility he has.
| imtringued wrote:
| Tesla bought Solar city to bail out around $6 billion in
| assets owned by the Musk family. He came up with an
| overhyped product launch (the solar roof) to instill
| confidence while behind the scenes he gutted Solar city
| (renamed to Tesla Energy) to nothing. I don't want him to
| be a role model for anyone.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QqtSqy3oeY
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f0PzbJOau8
| hef19898 wrote:
| Not to mention credit deals between SpaceX and Tesla as
| well. Also his habit of promissing outlandish stuff (self
| driving taxis for example) to keep money flowing and
| evaluations high. And then manipulating the unregulated
| Bitcoin market, trying that with stock traded on wall
| street would get you in hot water with the SEC. Something
| Elon has already experience with. Good cororate
| governance is something else.
| kaba0 wrote:
| A scam billionaire that did nothing by himself is
| anything but a role model.
| loceng wrote:
| Has anyone done anything by themself? Weak argument.
| ryder9 wrote:
| so you agree then?
| geomark wrote:
| That's a good idea. A demonstration of that old phrase
| "birds of a feather flock together." Musk employs a
| sleazebag to do Unsworth dirty, gets done dirty himself.
| Or maybe karma is a better word for it.
|
| I don't know about that putting on a pedestal thing. Musk
| is a brilliant guy, but has demonstrated that he has a
| pretty rotten character. IMO, a good role model for a kid
| really needs to have good quality of character above all
| else.
| rundevilrun wrote:
| musk hired a pi after making defamatory claims
|
| the absolute STATE of musk apologists jfc
| andi999 wrote:
| To me hiring an investigator to find dirt on a guy who
| bruised your ego by pointing out correctly that the sub
| sucks, is already crossing a lot of lines for me.
| jb775 wrote:
| It wasn't just bruised ego, the guy _brought_ legal
| charges against Musk claiming libel.
|
| How is hiring a 3rd party to investigate the underlying
| libel not a good initial response? Especially if he could
| easily afford it.
| j4yav wrote:
| He had already called him pedo guy amongst other things
| at that point (i.e., the libel in question in the first
| place). So it couldn't have come from the investigation
| that came later about the libel. The timeline just
| doesn't make sense.
| roenxi wrote:
| > But in Thailand defamation is a criminal offense that
| carries jail time. And since Unsworth is a national hero
| there's little doubt the court would have found in his
| favor and Elon would have had an outstanding arrest
| warrant.
|
| While Thailand is certainly within their rights to run
| their justice system how they want:
|
| 1) The punishment doesn't in any way fit the crime.
|
| 2) "He's such a hero" is a terrible reason to do
| something. Focusing on who the person being wronged was
| is a bad path to justice - it is better to focus on what
| the perpetrator did.
|
| So I hope the courts in Thailand would have found in
| Musk's favour.
| Dah00n wrote:
| How do you know the punishment doesn't fit the crime when
| the case is a thought experiment at most? Or are you
| saying that because it would be a criminal case it is too
| much no matter what? It makes no sense to me that it is
| too much just because it isn't US style justice. Criminal
| doesn't mean prison time. It's not like the US justice
| system is much better (clearly not working at all in this
| case). Compared to those countries justice systems the US
| should be compared to it's broken, corrupt and unfair (to
| the extreme for minorities).
| roenxi wrote:
| The comment was hoping that Elon would have an arrest
| warrant out on him, of the belief that he would never
| enter Thailand and was pointing out that the maximum
| penalty was imprisonment. There is an element of crazy -
| nobody should be facing arrest for saying nasty things.
| Maybe a fine, after a difficult court case.
|
| Leaving aside that Thailand's defamation laws are largely
| a club to stop people criticising the government and not
| really intended for use against people like Musk.
| geomark wrote:
| More than "a club to stop people criticising the
| government", it's used extensively by the rich and
| powerful to stop anyone from criticising them.
|
| Another funny thing about it is that the truth is not a
| defense. So even if Unsworth was a pedo and Musk could
| prove it, that would not be a defense against a
| defamation case. All that is needed is to show that the
| person making the defamatory remark intended to cause the
| victim to lose face.
| hyperpallium2 wrote:
| "impressive" is not a relevant criterion for prototypes
| [deleted]
| astoor wrote:
| As well as completely transforming many people's view of Musk
| (he ceased to be "the least bad billionaire" for many), the
| case also reflected extremely badly on the US legal system,
| showing that if you are rich enough you can get away with
| pretty much anything.
| tialaramex wrote:
| "Least bad billionaire" is a weird tag to give Musk.
|
| I mean, there are a bunch of people who either inherited a
| billion dollars or married into it, and, not being
| psychopaths, they just decided to spend that money doing
| good and have done with it. That seems pretty easily to be
| "less bad" than somebody like Bill Gates, Elon Musk, or
| Warren Buffett who set out to acquire wealth..
|
| I guess if you've got a really out-there moral utility
| function maybe saving the eyesight of a million children or
| whatever counts for nothing while making a slightly better
| toaster oven is a 100% goal achieved, but outside that I
| can't see any way Musk could be the "least bad
| billionaire".
|
| Actually I can see a case for a different weird utility
| function _if_ we also had some billionaires who got wealthy
| from scientific discoveries or mathematical breakthroughs
| or philosophical insights. If Martin Hellman had earned
| $100M per year since the 1980s for licensing fees from DH
| kex he could be a billionaire and we could argue about
| whether that 's an important thing to give to the world. Or
| if Judith Butler had become fabulously wealthy explaining
| to people that gender is a social construct, she'd be a
| billionaire and we could argue whether that was great. But
| in reality we do not pay philosophers or cryptographers
| billions of dollars, that sort of money goes to somebody
| like Musk or Bezos.
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| JK Rowling is a good example. She became a billionaire
| from writing Harry Potter but didn't stay one for long as
| she donated most of it
| prteja11 wrote:
| Well, she is widely criticized as being transphobic. So
| there's that.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Well you are considered transphobic for disagreeing with
| the twitter trans community about anything. So I wouldn't
| put much weight into that.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| anonymousiam wrote:
| Happy Birthday Nikola Tesla July 10, 1856 - January 7, 1943
|
| https://www.news18.com/news/lifestyle/nikola-tesla-birth-
| ann...
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| "Least bad billionaire" - isn't that Tony Stark, rather?
| jb775 wrote:
| I find it interesting that you position this guy as a "hero"
| with supporting arguments being that he brought _failed_
| legal action against someone else for calling him a name on
| twitter, while implying the reason he lost was because the
| hero _chose_ to hire a crazy lawyer. Then say he 's _clearly_
| a hero since the lawyer he _chose_ has opinions about things
| you don 't personally agree with, as if that has any
| relevance whatsoever to the legal case here.
| nick0garvey wrote:
| Pretty sure the reason he is being positioned as a hero is
| due to his involvement in literally saving the lives of 12
| children.
| mcguire wrote:
| " _Bizarrely, Unsworth 's lawyer was L Lin Wood, famous for
| later apparently having a mental breakdown and supporting
| conspiracy theories accusing chief justice John Roberts of
| pedophilia and murder, and being asked to undergo a mental
| examination by the state bar of Georgia._
|
| " _L Lin Wood 's handling of the Unsworth trial was widely
| panned as incompetent. Unsworth is clearly a hero, and Musk
| inserting himself into that situation and permanently
| tainting Unsworth's name was unconscionable._"
|
| Bizarre! I saw his suits when I went digging through the
| post-election hootenanny. Incompetent would be the gentlest
| way to describe them.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| Roberts has been associated with Epstein (like Gates), so
| how is that "bizarre"?
|
| FYI: all of the election lawsuits had a kernel of truth,
| but I would agree about "incompetent" - the problem is that
| lawyers often are not election experts or voting machine
| experts. Also they were pressed for time on filing.
| [deleted]
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Well not to say that it was not smart what Musk did. The guy
| did shitpost first and Musk responded. It's not like Musk just
| out of nowhere started hammering the guy.
| A_non_e-moose wrote:
| Pedophilia accusations might be just a tad overescalated as a
| response to "your sub sucks"...
| rowanG077 wrote:
| I agree. But I already said that.
| hyperpallium2 wrote:
| Consider: why wouldn't a Mars colony be an Elon company town?
| wnevets wrote:
| That was the exact moment I decided I would never buy a Tesla
| despite wanting one.
| saalweachter wrote:
| The good news is that the Tesla is far from your only option
| for an electric car at this point.
| sundvor wrote:
| Pretty much thanks to Tesla.
|
| Electric cars wouldn't be anywhere near where they are
| today without him - whatever we may think of his
| personality, the advancements in tech and environmental
| impacts for generations to come are real.
| argomo wrote:
| Perhaps, perhaps not. The market innovation of Tesla--
| selling electric vehicles based on sportiness and
| performance rather than eco-friendliness--pre-dates
| musk's involvement with the company.
| wnevets wrote:
| The need for a certain portion of the internet to defend
| Musk at all times is absolutely weird.
| fastball wrote:
| Yin and Yang.
|
| The defenders come out of the woodwork at approximately
| the same moment the attackers do.
| wnevets wrote:
| Why tho? Musk calls someone a pedophile for petty
| reasons, he gets called out for it and his defenders
| respond by saying he is the reason the electric car
| market exist. It's absolutely bizarre.
| suction wrote:
| That is absolutely not true.
| kaba0 wrote:
| Do you have any info on what is actually new in Teslas?
| The only hard problem of electric vehicles is the battery
| - which is third party in Teslas. So what exactly is
| novel there?
| Seanambers wrote:
| "The only hard problem of electric vehicles is the
| battery - which is third party in Teslas".
|
| No the entire system efficiency is whats hard and is why
| Tesla is way in front of the competition with regards to
| performance and range. Batteries have so far been a
| commodity - 18500 & 21700s, its only now that Tesla is
| starting to focus on that part of the system in reference
| to Battery Day.
| rndgermandude wrote:
| Yes and no.
|
| Tesla did innovate, but frankly not as much as many
| people want to give them credit for. And a lot of the
| innovation happened before Musk even joined, at least
| when it comes to basic EV tech, not talking about
| AutoPilot or whatever.
|
| Their real achievement was creating a market and
| interest. This new consumer and investor interest was
| also in large part to Musk throwing his ego around in
| public. A lot of other car makers had models in late
| stage development phases too, but didn't really see
| enough interest and a market need to bring those models
| forward to reach production. They were fat and happy,
| selling their fossil fuel models.
| sundvor wrote:
| Your part about generating real interest in EVs is
| exactly what I had in mind when I wrote my reply. I have
| been following EVs for a couple of decades now; the way
| especially the Tesla Model S was launched was a
| breakthrough in shaping the perception of electric cars
| as something entirely different, and desirable.
|
| There were a number of years when a Tesla was the _only_
| good EV you could buy, and they forced the entire
| industry to take note and actually develop their own
| programs. (Fast forward to today, and it 's sometimes
| pure comedy to see latecomers such as Mazda's first
| attempt being a complete "what?" with their first EV
| having under half the range of and being more expensive
| than a Model 3.)
|
| Sure, someone else could eventually have gotten there,
| but Musk and Tesla were the ones who did it - and I
| believe with a rather significant margin of time.
|
| There's a long list of things I don't like about
| personalities and design choices, but I feel it's ok to
| keep that separate from the above.
|
| (I don't own an EV. Still saving and waiting for the
| right time to upgrade from a 10 year old Subaru Outback
| ICEV bought new then.)
| A_non_e-moose wrote:
| If it wasn't Tesla someone else would, most likely Rimac.
| wdr1 wrote:
| A good recap on the Musk aspect:
|
| https://www.vox.com/2018/7/18/17576302/elon-musk-thai-cave-r...
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| When Musk first appeared I was hugely supportive. Definitely a
| fan of what he was doing both with SpaceX and Tesla.
|
| I'm still a fan of what those companies are doing but Elon has
| destroyed my view of him with his own behavior and words. We
| should stop turning a blind eye to his labor practices.
| Likewise, we should give the engineers and other workers that
| are actually accomplishing these things more credit, vs
| pretending it's one lone genius. Tom Mueller in particular
| deserves far more credit.
| _tulpa wrote:
| I don't really see what Elon actually does beyond cultivating
| public image and having money.
| jamiek88 wrote:
| Let's not go too far the other way now.
|
| He's chief engineer at spacex for starters.
| [deleted]
| heavyset_go wrote:
| He's also the Technoking of Tesla. The titles don't mean
| much when he can make them up and give them to himself
| whenever he feels like it.
| delecti wrote:
| Edit: I can admit when I'm wrong. I stand by my assertion
| that it's absurd to call him a founder of Tesla, but his
| position in SpaceX seems to be legit.
|
| ~~He may be _credited_ as chief engineer at SpaceX, but
| that doesn 't mean he's meaningfully contributing to
| actual engineering efforts.~~ He's also _credited_ as a
| founder of Tesla, despite not actually being involved in
| the founding of that company.
| kiba wrote:
| Elon Musk is a real engineer, especially if other
| engineers said he's an engineer.[1]
|
| Whatever his history is with other people or whatever his
| personality flaws or weakness, he's the real deal.
|
| [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0t
| a/eviden...
| Dah00n wrote:
| >if other engineers said he's an engineer
|
| Nonsense! Engineer is an education, not a job title. It's
| no different than Musk calling himself Doctor. He either
| went to school for years to become an engineer or he
| isn't one.
| iso1210 wrote:
| The term Engineer is pretty much meaningless in the US.
| The IT trade is pathetic in this area -- if you swap out
| a few cat5s you're suddenly an "Network Engineer". Cut
| and paste some stackoverflow snippets together and you're
| a "Software Engineer".
|
| In the UK the term is meaningless too, but CEng isn't.
| You don't become a Chartered Engineer until you've done
| the education but also have monitored professional
| practice experience.
| hef19898 wrote:
| The bare minimum is to have bachelor's degree in
| engineering, no matter what engineering field. You have
| that, you are an engineer, you don't you'rr not.
| Regardless of the career you choose after graduation.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| I'm a software engineer. I do software engineering with
| other software engineers. But I didn't go to school for
| it, I was self-taught. That doesn't make me less of an
| engineer.
|
| It's ok to express an opinion about Musk either way. You
| can not like him for all kinds of reasons. But he
| actually wrote video games as a kid growing up. He wrote
| code at his earliest startups and a lot of it.
| TheRealNGenius wrote:
| It kinda does, not because you were self trained, but
| because it is software engineering. https://en.wikipedia.
| org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...
| Tabular-Iceberg wrote:
| I know the word gets thrown around a lot, but "software
| engineering" doesn't really have anything to do with
| engineering at all, and it certainly doesn't make anyone
| engineers. Not just because it doesn't have any formal
| recognition as an engineering discipline but more
| importantly because the field is too immature for any
| such recognition to be at all meaningful. Case in point,
| all those private certification schemes and how lousy
| predictors they are of project success.
| TheRealNGenius wrote:
| this is correct, it shouldn't be called engineering at
| all actually.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| Even if he doesn't do the hands-on design work himself,
| he's clearly good at both recognising engineering talent
| and evaluating information that's presented to him. You
| couldn't have either of these skills without some
| engineering knowledge.
| delecti wrote:
| I edited my comment a while ago, I'm not sure your reply
| is really relevant to the updated version.
|
| But what you described is just being a CTO. That's an
| important job, but is still separate from being chief
| engineer.
| _hyn3 wrote:
| "He's obviously skilled at all those different functions,
| but certainly what really drives him and where his
| passion really is, is his role as CTO," or chief
| technology officer, Reisman said. "Basically his role as
| chief designer and chief engineer. That's the part of the
| job that really plays to his strengths."
|
| From that Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXL
| ounge/comments/k1e0ta/eviden...
| Dah00n wrote:
| Sure, but having engineering knowledge doesn't make you
| an engineer just like having medical knowledge doesn't
| make you a doctor.
| andi999 wrote:
| So when will his engineers tell him that hyperloop won't
| work (assuming he honestly doesn't know).
| _hyn3 wrote:
| Why won't it? It's just scaling up bank air tubes. But
| that's almost irrelevant to my larger point:
|
| Where would we be right now if [pick _any_ inventor] had
| listened when the experts said, "it won't work"?
|
| An inventor's job is to have a big imagination. A
| _successful_ inventor usually has enough of an
| engineering background to test their hypothesis and
| refine as needed. Most of them also know how to gather
| highly educated minds to help them.
|
| Many successful inventors do not have deep academic
| backgrounds, because often those educational backgrounds
| tell them only what is impossible, not _what is
| possible_.
| na85 wrote:
| >He's chief engineer at spacex for starters.
|
| He calls himself that, sure. Elon is a smart guy, and
| that's why I think he positions himself the way he does.
| He doesn't want to be Bill Gates, he wants to be
| perceived as a man of the people. A dudebro who happens
| to be rich. That's why he's smoking joints with Joe Rogan
| on camera and tweeting about WSB.
|
| There is zero percent chance that Elon is actually doing
| any technical analysis or design for SpaceX.
|
| He calls himself Chief Engineer for the same reason Trump
| claims to be a master-level deal maker. They're
| narcissists cultivating their respective cults of
| personality, and the legions of sycophants just lap this
| stuff up.
| kiba wrote:
| This is 100% public perception that he's a business
| development guy and all, because all we see is him
| tweeting, memeing, and sometime making a fool of himself.
|
| He's an engineer, and there's a bunch of engineers who
| worked with him who will attest to that.
| na85 wrote:
| >He's an engineer, and there's a bunch of engineers who
| worked with him who will attest to that.
|
| He's not, and all those quotes from that reddit thread I
| know you're thinking of are very careful to dance around
| the point.
|
| He's not an engineer.
| solveit wrote:
| Which thread is this? I'm curious.
| na85 wrote:
| The same reddit thread that gets trotted out by Musk
| worshippers every time someone points out he's not an
| engineer.
|
| It's full of quotes saying stuff like "he understands a
| lot about spaceflight and aerodynamics" and similar
| weasel statements.
| Dah00n wrote:
| Why do you need someone who worked with him to attast it?
| Engineer is something you go to school to become, not
| something you become because you have money or workers.
| Either he have an education as an engineer or he isn't an
| engineer. Giving yourself a title in your own company
| doesn't make it so.
| iso1210 wrote:
| In many countries, Engineer is a protected status job
| title. In the US I believe "Professional Engineer" is
| protected
|
| In the US, going to school to become a Graduate Engineer
| does not make you a Professional Engineer.
| fastball wrote:
| You definitely don't need formal education in order to be
| an engineer.
| sx_throwaway wrote:
| I used to work at one of the Musk companies. He was a huge
| mark in the "cons" column when I was deciding whether or not
| to take the job. He is embarrassing and he made me a little
| ashamed to say where I worked. I did my best to ignore him
| and I suspect others did too. No one ever talked about him.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _We should stop turning a blind eye to his labor practices.
| Likewise, we should give the engineers and other workers that
| are actually accomplishing these things more credit, vs
| pretending it 's one lone genius._
|
| We also need to hold him to account when Musk tries to ruin
| the lives of his employees who speak up about what goes on in
| his companies. He even tried to frame one of them as a mass
| shooter to police[1] in an effort to get them SWAT'd.
|
| [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-13/when-
| elon...
| [deleted]
| NavinF wrote:
| Source does not support your claim. It says that an
| anonymous tip got the employee swatted.
| yarcob wrote:
| Musk has a history of going after people who critisize
| him in public. He (and his staff) have again and again
| attacked journalists, former employees, and anyone else
| who said anything bad about Tesla or Musk. A common
| thread is that they always try to present critics as
| liars and try to destroy their reputation.
|
| It's happened so often, that we must assume it's their
| standard method of operation.
|
| And whether that call was made by Musk himself or someone
| he instructed to ruin that persons life doesn't really
| make a difference. The fact is that Musk himself or one
| of his bullies lied to the police and they got away with
| it.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _Musk has a history of going after people who critisize
| him in public._
|
| Does he? Can you name three cases?
|
| > _He (and his staff) have again and again attacked
| journalists, former employees, and anyone else who said
| anything bad about Tesla or Musk._
|
| Again, can you name three cases where Musk went after a
| journalist or former employees, and we _know_ , beyond
| reasonable doubt, that the victim was right - and not, in
| fact, lying through their teeth?
|
| I ask because there is documented history of the
| _reverse_ happening. Consider:
|
| 1. _Top Gear_ did a hit piece on their first car, lying
| about its range (55 vs. 200 miles). This doesn 't sound
| serious until you realize that, back then, people didn't
| believe in electric cars, mostly because of range
| worries. This kind of bullshit was arguably life-
| threatening not just to Tesla, but to the entire EV
| industry.
|
| Anyway, Tesla sued for libel and lost[0]. Here's a
| kicker: they lost because the judge deemed Top Gear is an
| entertainment show and not documentary, therefore they're
| not obliged to be factually accurate.
|
| 2. The incident with Top Gear made Tesla install
| telemetry in the cars given out for test drives; this
| came in handy few years later, when John Broder from _New
| York Times_ decided to publish a hit piece on Model S[1].
| Tesla then released data from the logs, directly
| contradicting the story, and demonstrating that Broder
| put in extensive effort to fabricate the bad results he
| then reported on.
|
| I can't blame them from being a bit sensitive after
| situations like these. For the past decade, there were,
| and still are, a lot of people standing to make boatloads
| of money from bringing Tesla and the EV market down.
|
| --
|
| [0] - https://www.wired.com/2012/02/tesla-vs-top-gear/
|
| [1] -
| https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/feb/14/tesla-
| pos...
| saiya-jin wrote:
| What the heck are you talking about, Tesla failed at Top
| Gear because when you drive the car hard on laps (which
| is what TG was mostly doing), just like any other
| electric car the theoretical range goes down
| significantly. Just like any other car running on any
| other source of energy.
|
| It annoyed the hell out of them that after driving for
| few laps they have to wait for hours to charge the car to
| do few more laps.
|
| Musk's ego simply couldn't swallow the fact that show
| which is being watched by 300 million people regularly
| slanted his baby. Luckily in this case, his enemy wasn't
| some lone expert diver but BBC with team of expensive
| lawyers, hence the result.
| yarcob wrote:
| Regarding the NY Times test drive, I would recommend to
| read an independent review rather than taking Musks blog
| posts as gospel.
| tedivm wrote:
| Gwynne Shotwell deserves far more of the credit for SpaceX
| than Musk does.
| s5300 wrote:
| And Musk _repeatedly_ publicly gives this to her /says this
| himself.
| abraae wrote:
| I'm no fan of Musk's shitty and arrogant behaviour. His
| treatment of Unsworth was truly disgusting.
|
| But that's like saying after a rugby game that the left
| wing deserved far more of the credit than the coach or
| captain, since they were the one who ran in the winning
| try.
|
| The thing is that Musk makes things happen. Not in some
| lame and purely money driven field like crypto or ad tech -
| but genuinely moving the needle in combating climate
| change.
|
| I feel I have to cut him some slack and laud his
| achievements, even though he comes across as a person you
| would involuntarily punch in the face for his hideous
| behaviour.
| tedivm wrote:
| Gwynne Shotwell is the coach in this hypothetical, while
| Musk is just the mascot.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| No, it's more like saying the left winger deserves more
| credit than some stupid fan who jumped onto the pitch and
| got in the way.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Most large companies have people that deserve more credit
| than the sitting CEO. However, that's part of the role of
| CEO is to be the one people look to as being in "charge".
|
| Musk definitely doesn't shy away from that part to his
| detrement (clearly he doesn't see it that way). But I'm
| firmly with the previous poster in that I like what
| Tesla/SpaceX are doing and attempting, but think Musk is a
| bit of a tool. The irony is not lost on me that sometimes a
| calmer figurehead might not have been able to lead to
| success a company like Tesla and/or SpaceX.
| mcguire wrote:
| Musk first appeared as what eventually became that
| universally loved company, PayPal. Which he was booted out
| of. Twice.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| No one here turns a blind eye to his labor practices.
| Everyone here at HN knows to steer clear. It's everyone that
| doesn't frequent this website that needs enlightening.
| exporectomy wrote:
| > We should stop turning a blind eye to his labor practices.
|
| Aren't there legal systems to make sure that's being done
| right? Is "we" some labor inspectors?
|
| If you want to give credit to engineers, where does it end?
| There are millions of engineers in the world doing important
| things. Crediting that many people will dilute the value of
| it all.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > _Aren 't there legal systems to make sure that's being
| done right? Is "we" some labor inspectors?_
|
| "We" can be past, current and future employees, who might
| not contact or work with labor inspectors out of reverence
| to "the mission" or Musk himself.
| realityking wrote:
| Single page version: https://www.zeit.de/wissen/2021-07/thai-
| cave-rescue-thailand...
| [deleted]
| uoaei wrote:
| What the fuck is this dark pattern? You must agree to ads before
| later revoking consent?
| t0astbread wrote:
| Well, at least they're being upfront about it: You can pay or
| get ads + tracking (or, the hidden third option: leave the
| site).
| mahathu wrote:
| this is very common across German websites. I assumed it was
| a common pattern elsewhere too!
| Dah00n wrote:
| Are you saying German sites doesn't follow the law (only
| freely given consent is legal)?
| germanier wrote:
| The law is not that absolute in this respect and there
| have been cases before higher courts accepting "data in
| exchange for value" contracts under some conditions.
| There are also legal opinions out there that this is
| illegal but note that there is a controversy here.
| arendtio wrote:
| I also don't understand how this can be in legal in the sense
| of the GDPR, but AFAIK there are multiple German news sites
| which use this pattern (e.g. Golem, Heise and Spiegel from the
| top of my head).
| happynacho wrote:
| Non-paywall?
| jauhar wrote:
| you can view the article if you click the green "i agree"
| button
| janci wrote:
| I still don't get it. The tunnels were too narrow near the
| ceilling, but wide near the floor. The divers could not keep at
| the floor because they could not navigate due to zero visibility,
| zero communication and no tether points.
|
| Would not a sonar help? A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to
| be able to talk via radio? Laying down some flexible tunnels that
| could be inflated with air or maybe just pumped with clear water
| to gain visibility? So many ideas come to mind, but they chose
| the most difficult transport of sedated and tied up kids ever. I
| assume they had a good reason, but still do not understand it.
| brazzy wrote:
| > Would not a sonar help?
|
| Portable sonar systems with in-helmet displays were put in use
| by the US Navy only last year: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-
| news/2021/03/us-navy-teams-w...
|
| > A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to be able to talk via
| radio?
|
| Would fuck up your buoyancy, but there are systems where you
| have only an air pockt around your mouth. But the range would
| be so low as to be nearly useless inside a cave.
|
| > Laying down some flexible tunnels that could be inflated with
| air or maybe just pumped with clear water to gain visibility?
|
| Even assuming that you had those already available, laying them
| would be a very slow process, and they would be a hindrance
| rather than help in very narrow passages.
| watwut wrote:
| > Even assuming that you had those already available, laying
| them would be a very slow process, and they would be a
| hindrance rather than help in very narrow passages.
|
| The point would be to use them so that there is no necessity
| to go through narrow passage. The diver says that when boys
| went in, they walked through wide openings on bottom.
|
| But, they were probably impractical for other reasons.
| bccdee wrote:
| This may be a somewhat silly question, but why couldn't they
| just have used flashlights? I'm sure there's an obvious
| reason, but I don't know what it is.
| biasedbrain wrote:
| Mud
| jgwil2 wrote:
| I assume it wasn't just darkness they were dealing with,
| but also that the water was so muddy it became opaque, in
| which case lights wouldn't have helped them.
| bccdee wrote:
| Ah of course, yeah that must be it.
| lamontcg wrote:
| They do, but in zero viz there's so much crap suspended in
| the water that you literally can't see anything more than
| an inch in front of your face. Its the worst driving-into-
| a-snowstorm problem you can imagine.
| ben0x539 wrote:
| I assumed it's not just darkness but mud.
| lamontcg wrote:
| > Would not a sonar help?
|
| I'm not even sure what you're envisioning but something
| lightweight and not bulky that is capable of producing sonar
| images similar to whatever the detectors were in Aliens doesn't
| exist. And it was zero viz and in completely zero viz you can
| barely see your hand in front of your mask, assuming you have
| illumination.
|
| > A full spacesuit-like helmet with air to be able to talk via
| radio?
|
| That creates a dead space that fills up with CO2, you'd need to
| actively pump that out through the rebreather which now creates
| more things to bash into rock and fail and kill you, plus
| generates more bulk which is the last thing you want into those
| tight caves.
|
| You can use a full face mask (FFM) that has comms with a
| rebreather but in a single file cave there's no point and cave
| divers know how to communicate in single file in zero viz by
| touch contact. And there's not much to communicate since either
| you're moving or you're temporarily stuck and the person behind
| you can't really help you much. With a rebreather you can also
| talk pretty well in water if you're just close enough to each
| other. I've also managed to communicate effectively by talking
| into a normal scuba regulator as well, without having to write
| anything down.
|
| > Laying down some flexible tunnels that could be inflated with
| air or maybe just pumped with clear water to gain visibility?
|
| That would probably take weeks and you'd be fighting the
| pressure of the incoming water inside of the cave. Air probably
| wouldn't work at all, you'd need to build a pressure
| differential airlock so that's likely impossibly complicated.
| Water might work if you built a reservoir at a higher altitude
| to gain pressure, but them you need to pump the water up there
| and you need flexible inflatable tubing that can hold a couple
| atmospheres of pressure and is large enough for a human, and I
| think I'd prefer to be surrounded by rock rather than by saran
| wrap that could fail and I'd get entangled it in the shredded
| plastic and drown. No thanks. As evidenced by the successful
| recovery, zero viz can be dealt with.
|
| > So many ideas come to mind, but they chose the most difficult
| transport of sedated and tied up kids ever. I assume they had a
| good reason, but still do not understand it.
|
| They're all trained at more or less doing that, they've been
| through the environment, and they've all been through rescue
| training to drag an unconscious buddy out of the cave.
| Strapping the kids down, giving them sedatives and putting a
| FFM on them solved all the problems of taking someone out of
| the cave that wasn't trained in diving at all. It gives you the
| smallest package to drag out of the cave along with giving you
| access to the kids. The coffin that Musk was proposing was more
| or less just that. By trying to keep the kids dry, now you have
| CO2 problems, you need a scrubber in the coffin and you need
| strong enough walls to deal with the pressure differential,
| that creates bulk and makes it more difficult to move through
| the restrictions, and if anything goes wrong the kids suffocate
| and die and there's no access to them at all.
|
| From the perspective of a trained cave diver the solution that
| they used was nearly perfect.
| cirrus3 wrote:
| > I still don't get it.
|
| Clearly not. Why does someone always have to assume they know
| better?
|
| > they chose the most difficult transport
|
| What are you even basing this statement on?
| janci wrote:
| I do not assume I know better. I am just asking why any of
| these ideas would not work.
|
| > What are you even basing this statement on?
|
| As I understand it, the transport was immensely difficult.
| The divers and the rescued kids were at great danger. It is
| unbelievable to me they managed to save them without any
| special solution.
|
| I'm sorry if my comment was misunderstood.
| fastasucan wrote:
| How do you know that this wasn't the easiest/only option?
| (Since you said it was the hardest).
| janci wrote:
| From the article:
|
| >Later, after the water had run off, you could see that
| down at the bottom, where the boys walked in, there were
| much larger gaps. But the divers couldn't attach anything
| to the muddy bottom when laying out the guide lines. They
| had to follow along the ceiling. The only path they found
| was through the narrow passageways.
|
| As I understand it, they had to use the narrow passages
| at the top because they were not able to discover the
| wide gaps near the bottom. I assume some equipment could
| help with that making the transport easier once a more
| comfortable path was found.
| watwut wrote:
| > I assume some equipment could help with that making the
| transport easier once a more comfortable path was found.
|
| Or maybe your assumptions are wrong.
| janci wrote:
| Maybe. That's why I am trying to discuss. To find out why
| are they wrong.
| fastasucan wrote:
| Im amazed that you come to the conclusion that the people who
| work with this and risked their lives didn't have these obvious
| ideas rather than there is reasons why they wouldn't work that
| you dont understand.
| anonydsfsfs wrote:
| What? The GP didn't come to that conclusion. It's pretty
| clear to me they're trying to understand the thought process
| of the rescuers and why they rejected the obvious ideas.
| Asking an expert why they decided against something obvious
| is a great way to learn what works and what doesn't work. It
| doesn't mean you're insinuating the expert is an idiot.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| I think it was also filled with mud , or is it what you cover
| with the "no tether points" part ?
|
| My take away from the article is that there could have been
| many more solutions, some more clever, some involving more gear
| etc., but they were completely short of time and verified
| information to come up with other viable plans.
|
| Basically any other plan would have needed more checks,
| preparation, waiting for the gear to be ready, rehearsal, etc.
| And as said in the beginning of the interview, they feared the
| kids would be dead any day. As I get it, that's also why
| civilians where chosen instead of the pro rescue team, because
| they were the only one with appropriate gear and experience at
| that moment in that place.
| janci wrote:
| > filled with mud
|
| As I understood there was mud layer that prevented the divers
| to navigate near the bottom (no way to tie a string as to
| anchor point to not get lost in zero visibility, no way to
| feel where the bottom is, etc.). But not so much mud that
| only the narrow passage was left.
|
| > And as said in the beginning of the interview, they feared
| the kids would be dead any day
|
| They would be dead if they did not find them on the last day,
| as it was considered to stop the search. Once the kids were
| found and supplied with food they had enough time to plan,
| prepare, rehease, re-check and execute the rescue.
| jimsimmons wrote:
| You ask as if these people were working with Iron Man and
| Jarvis. The things you describe would take at least weeks to
| build. "Full space suit like helmet with air to be able to talk
| over radio " retrofitted to work with whatever dive equipment
| they had loll. What else? Maybe they could have a Mac n cheese
| dispenser in the side too
| janci wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > There was even a discussion about leaving the 12 kids and
| the football coach inside the cave for the whole rainy season
| and providing them with food and supplies from outside for
| months.
|
| I suppose building the equipment for few weeks is better than
| waiting for months to end of rainy season.
| watwut wrote:
| But that plan was rejected. It is not like they would
| conclude that staying there for long is good idea.
| heisenzombie wrote:
| I've had very limited experience of low/no visibility diving -
| it's hard to overstate how incredibly difficult it is to
| accomplish anything. You can't see anything, you can only hear
| your own loud disorienting breathing, you can't feel gravity,
| your sense of time goes completely out of the window. It makes
| moving very short distances hilariously slow. You constantly
| have to keep yourself oriented in full 3D space. If I had
| dropped something 10 centimetres from my face, I may have never
| found it. Trying to map out alternate routes through kilometres
| of unknown cave system with incredible time pressure? It's a
| miracle they found even one route.
| McDyver wrote:
| A sonar wouldn't help in such a pressing situation. The sonar
| would only provide a map that would still need to be
| interpreted, and wouldn't solve the actual problem of
| transporting the boys.
|
| Those "helmets" exist, but helmets as such are used in
| commercial diving with a tether to the diver. Not very
| practical to have it running along the cave for multiple
| divers. The full face masks that allow that are mainly used in
| open circuit diving and are bulky. I don't know if the
| pros/cons would make a huge difference.
|
| At one point I believe Tesla or just Musk were planning and
| developing a pod to carry each boy, but the tunnels and sumps
| were so narrow that they wouldn't be able to make the turns.
|
| Having tunnels with compressed air to inflate them would have
| similar issues with the bends. Not to mention the amount of gas
| and pressure needed to displace all that water.
|
| I guess they took the most direct and logistically available
| option. I'm sure it will be a case study for the future.
| laingc wrote:
| What is outrageous is that the divers got at most an MBE - on the
| same New Years Honours list where heroes such as Michael Palin
| and Twiggy received knighthoods.
|
| I have never seen anything really deserving of a knighthood than
| what those divers did.
| pmyteh wrote:
| The two lead divers (Richard Stanton and John Volanthen) both
| got the George Medal, the UK's second highest civilian award
| for gallantry. I think the knighthood is seen more as a kind of
| national treasure long service award these days.
| mhh__ wrote:
| And civil servants [Yes Minister]
| bastawhiz wrote:
| This man showed some extreme self restraint in not even bringing
| up Elon Musk beyond a casual mention of the submarine idea. If
| Elon had called me a pedo because I didn't use his spaceship
| submarine I don't think I'd have held back quite as much.
| tpmx wrote:
| Musk wrote that tweet about a separate UK diver.
|
| Still, this Finnish diver did show remarkable restraint here.
| muthdra wrote:
| I respect Musk more than many commenters you see around. I
| understand he's not the billionaire savior many people seem
| to believe. I remember him mentioning something about how the
| sub couldn't go wrong because if the kids got there and the
| water rose, it should get where the kids were. How feasible
| was it, really?
| nradov wrote:
| It was never even remotely feasible. Musk's design was
| simply too large to fit through the restrictions in the
| cave. It's the kind of nonsense that only someone with no
| real diving experience could come up with.
| TheParkShark wrote:
| The restrictions were in the upper part. The article
| explains the boys walked in through a much larger path
| underneath.
| freeopinion wrote:
| Musk had no diving experience, and no knowledge of these
| caves. He was working from incomplete knowledge and
| intuition.
|
| Almost all of Musk's critics in the matter were working
| from no knowledge of the caves and little to no diving
| experience. Some of Musk's critics were working from the
| best available knowledge in both areas.
|
| But this diver points out exactly what Musk intuited.
| There was a much easier route for all those boys to have
| hiked into the cave. Musk's submarine would probably have
| worked over that route. But nobody had knowledge of that
| route at the time.
|
| One solution would have been for Musk or somebody to
| build little robots that could explore the caves in zero
| light with sonar mapping equipment. The robots would need
| to navigate and operate underwater and abovewater in very
| difficult terrain. It seems like an impractical pursuit
| under the circumstances. Why even mention such a
| ridiculous idea? Well, why not? Why not put all options
| on the table. You can dismiss the "Have Scotty beam them
| out" stuff immediately. But they were talking about
| establishing supply lines for months to keep them alive
| until the water went down. They were talking about
| drilling holes 1km+ to hopefully tap the chamber where
| those kids were. They were talking all sorts of stuff.
|
| And yes, somebody was talking body-sized submarines. And
| somebody might have been talking about dive robots. And
| sonar mapping.
|
| I was glued to my news feed with a bag of potato chips
| and so were almost all of you. I don't know diving and I
| don't know those caves.
|
| I think the divers who rescued them are mental. I mean
| really crazy. I mean, seriously, who in their right mind
| would do stuff like that? I think the effort just to find
| the kids was risk-taking at a scale that terrifies me.
| Their brains do not work like mine. Thank goodness.
|
| Musk's brain doesn't work like mine, either. I'm not
| going to criticize the divers. They are clearly heroes.
| Musk doesn't come off as a hero in this story. But I'm
| not going to criticize him either. His intuition was
| right. He did more than click reload on his browser for
| two weeks. Nobody else liked his idea. Isn't that the
| story of his life?
|
| In the end, his idea was one of many that were rejected.
| Instead they went with the crazy idea to tie everybody
| up, knock them out, and hope they don't accidentally
| knock their masks off. Who's bright idea was that? Well,
| it worked.
|
| Let's not bag on the people who made tremendous efforts
| to rescue the kids. And let's not bag on the people who
| made some efforts that didn't produce results. And please
| don't bag on me, who did nothing.
| jimsimmons wrote:
| You don't seem to understand the power that a platform
| like Musk's has. What if those humble cave divers thought
| Elon knows his stuff and pursued his plan instead of
| theirs? What if they got pressured by outside entities,
| whomever they maybe, and were told to follow him?
|
| When it doesn't go well "he's just putting options on the
| table". When it does he's colossal genius?
|
| The bigger issue people point out is Musk's inability to
| know limits of his knowledge. He is naive and that's news
| to a lot of people
| freeopinion wrote:
| You don't seem to understand the power that a platform
| like Musk's has. He put forward his idea. He built a
| prototype. He did initial testing. He put out a lot of
| work (or paid/persuaded others to do so). He was mocked
| and criticized and rejected. We don't have to play what
| if on your scenario. We can see the real world results.
|
| If you want to play what if... What if he provided dive
| robots and body submarines and mapping experts? What if
| it took him a week to map the caves, find a workable
| route, and save those kids? What if just one kid had his
| mask scraped off using the technique they actually did
| use? What if one kid got stuck and the helper got killed
| trying to get them unstuck?
|
| The what if game is fun for me with optimistic what ifs.
| It's a terrible game with pessimistic what ifs. It's
| largely pointless either way. But sometimes the
| optimistic version is useful. Sometimes somebody develops
| dive robots after the fact because the what ifs capture
| their imagination in a good way.
|
| More people should reject their limits and reach for big
| things. I don't think Musk is the most amazing person in
| the world. I realize he has a downside (like we all do).
| But I hope he inspires people to dream big and accomplish
| big. That requires optimism. Sometimes even naive
| optimism.
|
| "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The
| unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to
| himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the
| unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
| krapp wrote:
| >"Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable
| man." - George Bernard Shaw
|
| Except when it doesn't. Sometimes the unreasonable man is
| just an asshole who wants to play Batman and progress
| depends on ignoring him completely.
| freeopinion wrote:
| The heros that rescued those kids came up with a
| preposterous and unreasonable plan. We could have ignored
| them, too. And ignored the drilling crews, and the dudes
| with miles of hose and giant pumps. We could have said
| that any rescue would require an unreasonable effort.
|
| It sure is easy to slip "we" all over that paragraph. I
| certainly don't deserve any credit for the decisions that
| were made and the heroics that saved the day.
|
| But if we reject all the unreasonable efforts, we are
| left with the status quo. That would mean those kids
| wouldn't have even been located, let alone rescued. Thank
| goodness for people who flew around the world to do crazy
| things. Thank goodness for divers who ditched their wives
| on their anniversary and flew over there just on the
| chance they might carry the bottles for the Navy experts.
| Those are not reasonable actions.
|
| Unreasonable people aren't always right. Maybe they're
| not even usually right. Maybe. But thank goodness for the
| times when progress depended on them and they didn't fail
| us by being reasonable.
| apocolyps6 wrote:
| This is conspiracy theory logic, thinking that the
| armchair theorist and the subject matter expert are on
| the same level.
|
| You keep stressing that the plan was preposterous and
| unreasonable, as if everyone one over there just did
| whatever they wanted and nobody was coordinating. This
| was an unprecedented operation, but by that same logic
| was the first ever heart transplant "preposterous and
| unreasonable"?
|
| There's a world of difference between picking the best of
| many risky plans, and shouting over better informed
| people to advance the plan that makes you look like a
| hero.
| freeopinion wrote:
| Yes! Now you're getting it. The first brain surgery was
| preposterous and audacious. The first pacemaker was crazy
| (You want to add batteries to my heart?).
|
| Crazy ideas require crazy amounts of careful design,
| careful planning, careful execution. That's what makes
| them crazy. Along with the high probability of failure
| even with the greatest care. How many open heart surgery
| patients died before the first success? None? That's
| crazy!
|
| You want to host the summer olympics in Yuma, AZ? That's
| crazy!
|
| You want to build a giant reusable spaceship on the
| border of Mexico? That's crazy!
|
| You want to drill a hole through somebody's skull to
| drain the swelling and relieve the pressure? That's
| crazy!
|
| You want to cut a hole in somebody's throat so they can
| breath? That's crazy!
|
| You want to plant 10 trillion trees to change the Earth's
| atmosphere? You're crazy!
|
| You want to teach every child in the world how to read?
| Crazy!
|
| Not all of those things are the best of many risky plans.
|
| And quit pretending that somebody shouted over better
| informed people. I'm sure there were critics of all the
| plans. Some people might have shouted. Some might have
| quit in protest. Some pondered quietly. Some people were
| terrified but did it anyway. They planned and organized
| the best they could. And despite mistakes, and even spur-
| of-the-moment adlibs they pulled it off. Crazy!
| jimsimmons wrote:
| They are crazy at the start. The ones that do succeed do
| so by having a plan. Not by trying to be crazy / rebel
| without a cause. We still don't know all the variables.
| Those with experience knew some and ultimately executed
| on it. They were informed by hands-on experience. Note
| the governments and the navy SEAL units from multiple
| countries are getting involved with the operations.
| Imagine being whomever you are and advocating for your
| solution. What message are you sending? That everyone
| should haggle with these operational experts and get an
| answer for why their ideas wouldn't work?
|
| Don't you think the time, attention and energy that these
| people expend dealing with famous cool guy's ideas are
| ultimately resources that are taken away from the core
| operation.
| [deleted]
| dang wrote:
| Please let's all show the same restraint.
| [deleted]
| paulpauper wrote:
| except that elon did not initiate the exchange of words. Elon
| proposed his submarine. He was told by the diver Vern Unsworth
| to 'stick his submarine where it hurts'.
| krapp wrote:
| Elon Musk is a grown man, not a child, and he should be
| capable of tact and self control. "He started it" is not a
| valid excuse for his public, slanderous little temper
| tantrum.
| LegitShady wrote:
| capable != required
|
| If he seriously proposes to help and is told to stick it
| where he hurts, he can choose whether or not to respond
| with 'tact and self control' but he isn't required to.
|
| The diver is the one without tact and self control, but you
| slag elon for responding in kind instead of the diver. You
| expect more from musk but musk owes you nothing - not even
| tact. He doesn't have to accept abuse from someone else out
| of fear of losing your good opinion. It literally doesn't
| matter to him at all.
| bwship wrote:
| Musk is still a dick for the comment. He was butt hurt,
| because his stoner idea of a tiny submarine was met with
| the "umm, WTF" that it should by actual people saving the
| kids lives.
| LegitShady wrote:
| I don't disagree but he wasn't a dick in a vacuum -
| someone was a dick to him, he was a dick back. Your
| expectations that musk should just take it on the chin
| without responding in kind are your expectations and
| honestly nothing to do with musk. This guy was rude to
| him, he was rude back, you're disappointed in musk, musk
| doesn't care, you're still fixated on the response rather
| than what set the tone - the original rude message.
|
| I don't see why musk should care about being nice to
| someone who started off being rude.
| detaro wrote:
| Yes, that was his excuse, "back home calling someone a
| pedo was just a normal insult", but Musk did a bit more
| than "was rude back". Hiring a PI to dig up dirt? Sending
| further lies about the guy to media?
| LegitShady wrote:
| its why I don't start fights with billionaires who can
| afford to look into you without effort. I wouldn't do it,
| but once it became a thing I'm 100% every billionaire has
| a firm who looks into people who start fights with them.
| cycomanic wrote:
| If someone is derailing an important rescue, by making
| useless suggestions to please his own ego, what in your
| view is the appropriate response.
|
| What in your opinion should we say to spectators at
| accidents you hinder the rescue workers, by e.g.stanfing
| next to them and giving advice?
| LegitShady wrote:
| The question is the tone - this person was rude first,
| and got a rude reply, and the fixation is on the rude
| reply rather than the one that set the tone.
|
| The tangent about 'hindering rescue workers' has nothing
| to do with reality. they were exchanging messages on
| twitter - it's nonsense to equate that to anything like
| you are.
| dehrmann wrote:
| Musk actually won the defamation case because--my words--
| you can't take anything he says seriously.
| hef19898 wrote:
| Ah, the Tucker defence!
| busterarm wrote:
| Correction, the Rachel Maddow defense.
|
| You have to pick the person to use it first.
| techrat wrote:
| Terrible attempt at a "No, u, lib" retort.
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/fox-news-karen-mcdougal-
| case...
|
| > A federal judge on Thursday dismissed a lawsuit against
| Fox News after lawyers for the network argued that no
| "reasonable viewer" takes the primetime host Tucker
| Carlson seriously, a new court filing said.
|
| https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-
| cant-...
|
| >Now comes the claim that you can't expect to literally
| believe the words that come out of Carlson's mouth. And
| that assertion is not coming from Carlson's critics. It's
| being made by a federal judge in the Southern District of
| New York and by Fox News's own lawyers in defending
| Carlson against accusations of slander. It worked, by the
| way.
|
| https://www.cbsnews.com/news/judge-tosses-suit-trump-
| affair-...
|
| > The judge said that lawyers for Fox "persuasively"
| argued that "any reasonable viewer 'arrive[s] with an
| appropriate amount of skepticism' about the statements"
| Carlson makes, according to a court filing.
| busterarm wrote:
| 1. I'm a liberal.
|
| 2. Both cases were about a news network program not being
| news but an opinion show (not statements of fact).
|
| 3. Seethe harder.
|
| 4. We liberals need to learn how to self-critique and
| also accept criticism from within without labeling
| everyone as enemies or as "others". This shit is
| fracturing our identity and driving people to the right.
| The correcting function to our shitty behavior is going
| to be ugly.
| [deleted]
| hef19898 wrote:
| From the law suite: A reasonable viewer would not
| actually think OAN is paid Russian propaganda, instead,
| he or she would follow the facts of the Daily Beast
| article; that OAN and Sputnik share a reporter and both
| pay this reporter to write articles," Bashant wrote.
| "Anything beyond this is Maddow's opinion or her
| exaggeration of the facts."
|
| Source: Variety
|
| Reads different from the Tucker defence:
|
| A federal judge on Thursday dismissed a lawsuit against
| Fox News after lawyers for the network argued that no
| "reasonable viewer" would take the network's primetime
| star Tucker Carlson seriously.
|
| Source: Business Insider
|
| Saying some opinion wouldn't be take. serious is _very_
| different from saying the person having thay opinion
| wouldn 't be taken serious.
| kevmo wrote:
| Musk won the case because he had the most expensive
| lawyers in the world.
| Helloworldboy wrote:
| The slander case was dropped because the diver was indeed a
| pedophile
| indigodaddy wrote:
| " Together with Finnish journalist Johanna Elomaa, I wrote the
| book "Sukellus Valoon" (Diving into the Light) about my
| experiences during the rescue mission and how it changed my life"
|
| ^ From page 2 of the article. I Googled for this book but wasn't
| able to find anywhere to buy it. Supposed to have been published
| in 2018. Perhaps no English version yet... was anyone able to
| find the book?
| homarp wrote:
| https://www.johannaelomaa.com/books/sukellus-valoon/#mctmp
| indigodaddy wrote:
| Ah thanks! It's unclear whether there is an English version
| yet. From all indications on that page it appears perhaps
| not. Also the "Order here" link appears non-functioning (at
| least on iOS Chrome).
|
| I'd bet an English version will be not too far in the future
| (I hope!)
| tpmx wrote:
| http://kontextagency.com/non-fiction/diving-into-the-light
|
| Looks like there's only a Finnish original issue and a
| Swedish translation published so far.
| trackofalljades wrote:
| paywalled
| wintorez wrote:
| I wish there was a way to flag behind pay wall links.
| lilSebastian wrote:
| > what dedicated, skilled, selfless people can do.
|
| Save lives and earn the accolade 'Peado guy' from Elon Musk for
| having the audacity to do so.
|
| Edit: the Musk fanboys are heavy on the down votes today.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take threads on generic tangents (this story ->
| cave story -> pedo guy tweet -> reductio ad Muskum). Please
| don't post cheap flamebait to HN. Also please don't go on about
| downvotes or post swipes about other users. It's all very
| tedious and we're trying for something interesting here.
|
| We've had to ask you before to follow the site guidelines.
| Would you mind reviewing
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the
| intended spirit of the site more to heart? We'd be grateful,
| because we're trying to avoid the tailspin into internet dreck
| which has traditionally been the fate of forums like this.
|
| We detached this subthread from
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27795166.
| arcticbull wrote:
| Yea haha I was going to remind folks of that too. Elon was
| building a submarine that everyone involved told him was a
| terrible idea and to please leave them alone because he was
| hampering the effort, and Elon responded by calling one of the
| lead rescuers a "pedo guy" and got sued over it.
|
| I believe his defense was that "pedo guy" was a common insult
| in South Africa.
|
| Simpler times haha.
| marvin wrote:
| It's probably not worth the effort providing any form of
| defense of any part of Musk's role in this, but his team did
| ask the British lead divers whether they should carry on
| working on the sub (well, underwater transportation tank)
| project, and they received the response that the lead divers
| wished them to continue as a contingency.
|
| Also, one should obviously not falsely accuse someone of
| being a pedophile, including if they tell you to shove your
| submarine up your ass.
|
| But really, this whole thread shows up every time the cave
| story is mentioned, and I think the whole thing just detracts
| from the fantastic international act of heroism that the
| rescue was. It was really a beautiful achievement where no
| adversaries had to be hurt, the kind of uniting against the
| cruel laws of nature that I wish the world would see a lot
| more of.
| lilSebastian wrote:
| Simpler times... 3 years ago...
| arcticbull wrote:
| "Before the war" if you will haha - as in before COVID,
| which has distorted at least my perception of time greatly.
| paledot wrote:
| Also when the very last of my respect for Musk died.
| bambax wrote:
| Musk showed his true character.
| Karsteski wrote:
| It was an asshole thing to say, but I don't think someone
| being an asshole means that that moment defines their "true
| character"
| detaro wrote:
| He afterwards paid someone to dig up more dirt and
| emailed media with further lies about the guy. At that
| point it kind of stops being "heat of the moment".
| lilSebastian wrote:
| An expert in the field risks their life to save children,
| is accused of being a peadophile. That's a long way from
| being an a-hole.
| adamisom wrote:
| Yeah if every harmful thing constituted the "true
| character" of someone, we'd all be sinners. Granted, if a
| lot of harm is done, then it might be fair. (Cue the
| knee-jerk "isn't dragging a hero's name through the mud a
| lot of harm?"; I don't know, can you tell me what _wouldn
| 't_ qualify as a "lot of harm" under your worldview?
| Everyone knows the diver was a hero and if you have
| evidence his life is affected, pls share)
|
| It's just negativity bias; considering the negative to be
| "more true" or accurate than the positive.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| > we'd all be sinners
|
| We are all sinners tho, that's kind of the nature of sin.
| dafelst wrote:
| I have a friend of a friend who worked directly under
| Musk at one of his big ventures. Can confirm that Musk is
| a giant egotistical asshole, albeit a brilliant one.
| getlawgdon wrote:
| b./SpaceX?
| pjc50 wrote:
| Lots of people say dumb things in the heat of the moment.
| Choosing to stick by it and not apologize is the
| confirmation dialogue for showing your character.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Oh, but it wasn't just that one thing. It's just layer
| upon layer with that guy. This one was pretty damn bad
| though
| s5300 wrote:
| Just like when he gave tens of thousands of kids in Flint
| Michigan safe drinking water the U.S. government has been
| denying them for decades.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Not that it's musks fault, but the most recent update I
| can find on this (March 2021) sounds like they never got
| the filters working
|
| https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2021/03/after-
| roadblocks-wi...
| cmurf wrote:
| So did the American legal system.
| swiley wrote:
| IMO: those weren't "simpler times." Everyone just seems to
| let Elon get away with saying a lot of BS on Twitter for
| whatever reason. Trump was the same way until he became
| president.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >I believe his defense was that "pedo guy" was a common
| insult in South Africa.
|
| This is also what Luis Suarez said about his comment that got
| him in trouble that his comment is common where he's from.
| Just because it's what is said in one place does not mean
| that it is acceptable anywhere else (if even in the one
| place).
| pezezin wrote:
| Nowhere the same case, Suarez used a common friendly term
| with his friend, as a thank you, and he wrote it in
| Spanish. Anybody who has half a clue about the Spanish
| language knows that was not an insult, quite the opposite.
| chha wrote:
| There is a couple of other stories that comes to mind,
| unfortunately both of them were about recovering the dead.
|
| "Raising the Dead" is about the accidental discovery of a diver
| in SA, and the recovery efforts there. [1]
|
| "The cave divers who went back for their friends" is about a trio
| of finns who went back into a Norwegian underwater cave system to
| recover two friends who got stuck and died there. [2]
|
| [1] - https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/water-
| activi...
|
| [2] - https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36097300
| pontifier wrote:
| 4 friends of friends died in a flooded cave in my home town.
|
| https://www.deseret.com/2005/8/23/19908025/4-drown-in-cave#8
|
| I had been hearing about the cave, and had been invited to go
| there a couple of weeks before this happened. I decided not to
| go because it didn't sound safe. I was concerned about the
| oxygen content of the air pocket and decided it was too
| dangerous.
| goodcanadian wrote:
| This one is more a story of dumb luck, but there was a case of
| a crew member surviving for 2.5 days in an air pocket in his
| sunken ship:
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-25205914
|
| He was discovered by divers hired to investigate the sinking
| and recover the bodies.
| dntrkv wrote:
| Every time I watch that I get so emotional. Imagine being in
| his shoes. Stuck underwater for days, knowing that you are
| most likely going to die there. Then just by dumb luck you
| are rescued. The relief this man must have felt.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| That video is classic. My favorite part is when the diver
| sees the man and "mission control" thinks the diver is
| panicking from seeing a corpse and tries to get him to calm
| down, then the swearing while they're trying to figure out
| what to do.
| djmips wrote:
| How about "What is your rank?" "I'm the cook" "You're the
| cook?" "Yes sir" "They always survive..."
| arwineap wrote:
| I just want to re-iterate that these are some of the same
| divers involved with the thai cave rescue in TFA
| mongol wrote:
| There is a great documentary about the Finnish cave divers.
| "Diving into the unknown":
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_into_the_Unknown
|
| "Last breath" is also a really good documentary about rescue
| under water
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Breath_(2019_film)
|
| Both of these I rate 5/5
| 34679 wrote:
| I'm just going to toss this here because I really enjoyed the
| audiobook:
|
| Shadow Divers - The True Adventure of Two Americans Who
| Risked Everything to Solve One of the Last Mysteries of World
| War II
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Divers
| gpanders wrote:
| This book is absolutely incredible. I just read it
| recently. I didn't expect to like it that much (the
| description doesn't sound _that_ interesting), but Kurson
| is such an excellent author that he totally hooked me.
| Highly recommended.
| pleaser wrote:
| page 1 https://archive.is/j6410
|
| page 2 https://archive.is/d6i50
| pan69 wrote:
| > ...as a teenager, I caused the death of a friend and that
| accident has marked my life. I had largely blocked it out until
| this mission in Thailand.
|
| Whoo. This guy must have gone through so much mental stress
| during this time.
| dools wrote:
| This is such an awe inspiring story, and at the same time it made
| me sad.
|
| It reminded me of the story of a young Rwandan girl who was about
| the same age as those trapped boys when she and her family
| escaped to the Congolese jungle ... I can't remember her name but
| she ultimately survived and has become a public activist.
|
| She tells her story now frequently and I remember her saying that
| she though the entire world must have suffered some catastrophe
| because no one was coming to save them.
|
| Later she found out it was just because no one really cared
| enough to save them.
|
| Imagine if we treated all lives with such value, and applied the
| same heroism and bravery to their rescue.
| [deleted]
| rPlayer6554 wrote:
| Could you/someone post the link to the article or her name?
| dools wrote:
| I can't for the life of me find the quote nor remember where
| I originally saw it. I thought it was something like a ted
| talk or at least a review of a ted talk, but I can't find it
| now :( that sentiment certainly stuck with me though, the
| idea that this girl assumed that, if they could, someone
| would have come to help, but that they had actually been
| abandoned which was a harsh realisation she came to later.
| ddingus wrote:
| Intriguing take.
|
| Priorities. Our world could be very different given a
| reconsideration of what is worth what.
|
| And some of us live more in that world, lucky to have agency,
| fellowship, resources to make it work.
|
| Humanity is partitioned. Not all sets makes sense.
| locallost wrote:
| It's difficult to find the right words. Just reading this felt
| like a million times more intense than anything I ever
| experienced. I felt the stress and claustrophobia the whole time
| as I was reading it. Just wow.
|
| Except Elon Musk is a total juvenile jackass. Those words are
| easy to find. It's a pity he has no shame.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| It's such an incredible, but also well balanced, very down to
| earth story.
|
| The rescuer is so diligent in putting things into perspective,
| especially regarding the future repercussions on cave diving or
| why they had to do it.
|
| Personally I was only remembering Elon Musk's jerkiness from the
| whole story, and am so glad to be reminded there are so many more
| positive takeaways, incredibly brave and supportive people
| working together and putting in all they have to make it work
| despite the odds.
|
| Also RIP the diver who lost his life a few days before while
| preparing for the rescue.
| stanrivers wrote:
| Good lord, I am hyperventilating just reading this. The people
| that went in and saved these boys are amazing. I am glad the
| author took the time to pull this together to share the story of
| the divers as well. Absolutely amazing - mind-boggling amazing -
| what dedicated, skilled, selfless people can do.
| emmelaich wrote:
| Excellent charts and animations at the SCMP.
|
| https://multimedia.scmp.com/news/world/article/2154457/thai-...
| ddingus wrote:
| My response was the same. Those divers are very high quality
| humans.
|
| I feel good people like that walk among us.
| IX-103 wrote:
| Did you see the video that was linked where they go back
| through the path they swam after the water cleared out?
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zGEmSHP4Idw&list=UUSPfkBf-K2vQ...
|
| I'd be too scared to go through there dry. That's insane.
| lightcatcher wrote:
| Wow. These videos bring home how insane the rescue was. I
| could not imagine anyone going through those tunnels with
| zero visibility and diving equipment, let alone while moving
| a sedated person along as well.
|
| Here the diver's blog post to accompany these videos:
| https://www.mikkopaasi.com/post/return-to-tham-luang-cave
| iforgotpassword wrote:
| I was wondering how far they had to dive as soon as I started
| reading, and then when they finally revealed it I was like
| "holy hell!"
|
| It was mentioned that one of the drivers damaged his gear going
| in, and that's the case where it's something attached to your
| body, which you can develop a fair amount of feeling for, like
| you get used to driving a car and just know how wide it is. I
| can't imagine how it must feel to drag along a sedated human
| when you can't see anything. There must have been situations
| where you accidentally hit some obstacle with one of the kids
| and then this dreaded feeling of not knowing if you displaced
| the mask and are now dragging a kid drowning in it's sleep
| across the mud for another hour.
|
| As cheesy as it might sound, this is one of these rare stories
| that restore faith in humanity. Absolutely amazing.
| pentae wrote:
| I was staying on the small island in Thailand where Mikko lives
| in when he returned from the caves.
|
| Word had obviously spread through the local Thai community that
| he was on the passenger ferry and there must have been 100 of
| them lining the streets to cheer him for his bravery once he
| arrived.
|
| It was a really touching thing to see.
| jonplackett wrote:
| Is there a film being made of this yet?
| cududa wrote:
| No idea why you got downvoted so much, but yes it's out, it's
| called The Cave
| jonplackett wrote:
| Yeah, seemed like a fairly reasonable question!
|
| Thanks! I wonder if it gives as chilling a representation as
| this article. I will go find out!
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Didn't downvote, but I also share the weird malaise when
| every remarkable event is expected to become a movie.
|
| In this case a the diver (co-?)wrote a book, so a movie is
| just another step in that direction and he seems cool with
| it. It would be shitty though to have a movie in any other
| circumstance.
| mongol wrote:
| What effect did the sedation have? Were they still conscious?
| dingusthemingus wrote:
| Yea this sounded pretty strange to me,
|
| Im aware sedation slows breathing down, so some oxygen can be
| saved if human attached to tank is not hyperventilating for
| hours,
|
| Pretty crazy the kids were sedated and hands bound and feet
| tied!
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| The divers said why, they had previously rescued two adults
| from that cave in a much easier tunnel, but the adults
| panicked underwater and ripped their masks off. The people
| you're saving can easily kill you too if they hit your mask.
| lamontcg wrote:
| Yeah just in Open Water rescue course you learn that people
| will panic and reject all their gear, including the
| regulator that could keep them alive, and will start to rip
| your gear off and try to take you with them.
|
| One of those things that you have to consider, particularly
| if you don't know the person that you're trying to rescue
| is at what point you're basically going to wind up fighting
| back and possibly intentionally drown the other person so
| that you survive. If the person is on the surface of the
| water and you have working scuba gear this can be as simple
| though as just descending and they'll stop trying to kill
| you. I've thought about the problem if you're in a cave and
| someone is nearly OOA and panicking and what would have to
| happen, but that's unlikely enough of a situation that
| hopefully I'll never have to worry about it.
|
| Its real obvious to me why the kids were strapped down and
| pumped full of happy drugs.
| apocolyps6 wrote:
| If I remember correctly, in my diver training we were
| instructed if someone was in need of saving to grab them
| from the back by the hair and drag them behind you to
| safety. That way there is minimal chance of the person
| freaking out and dealing you any damage.
| lamontcg wrote:
| Grab them by the tank valve on their back and hook your
| knees around their tank and ride them like a bucking
| bronco. You still need to be ready to get away from them
| if they don't calm down. And that assumes you're able to
| get behind them in the first place.
| tokai wrote:
| From wikipedia:
|
| <<The effect of ketamine on the respiratory and circulatory
| systems is different from that of other anesthetics. It
| suppresses breathing much less than most other available
| anesthetics.[29] When used at anesthetic doses, ketamine
| usually stimulates rather than depresses the circulatory
| system.>>
| janoc wrote:
| Probably the last thing you would want is an untrained kid to
| panic during the rescue. They would most likely kill both
| themselves and their rescuers in the process.
| masklinn wrote:
| Yes especially during cavediving, it's difficult enough for
| an experienced diver, and panicking / flailing individuals
| can drown would-be rescuers in pools.
| VistaBrokeMyPC wrote:
| The purpose of the ketamine vs other analgesics is you don't
| need to intubate or monitor respiratory system nearly as much
| as you do for say, propofol.
| ianlevesque wrote:
| I don't think so, towards the end the diver stated:
|
| > If need be, we were to give them another shot of ketamine in
| case they were waking up.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| being on ketamine while trapped in a cave would be
| ammmmaaaaazzziinnngg (ly terrifying)
| mhh__ wrote:
| On the way down from some ketamine I fell asleep in my VR
| headset while virtually inside someone else's room (high
| Res photogrammetry), that was spooky - took me a while to
| work out why I couldn't see my arms.
| goldenkey wrote:
| There's a difference between a k-hole and being sedated..
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