[HN Gopher] Spanish Sketches
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Spanish Sketches
Author : tintinnabula
Score : 39 points
Date : 2021-07-10 04:37 UTC (1 days ago)
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| roenxi wrote:
| Pretty scary thing here for me is that basically all the lessons
| from 1910 to 1950 are being forgotten. No political faction is
| ever really extinguished - the same ideas gain or lose power over
| time. There is always ongoing balancing between liberty and
| authority, the power of the individual vs. power of the army vs.
| power of the community.
|
| But based on the generally forward motion of time, there aren't
| going to be many enough people floating around who can sensibly
| identify which brands of ideology are the dangerous ones.
|
| As Orwell quite eloquently identified - there are some ideas
| hiding in socialism that are legitimately dangerous if they
| become ascendant. They were so thoroughly crushed through the
| latter part of the 20th century I'm not sure the body politic can
| recognise them any more.
|
| The acquiescence of basically everyone to the building digital
| security state is also alarming.
| linspace wrote:
| If some ideas never dissapear they must be grounded in human
| nature. They are viral, adapting and evolving.
| enriquto wrote:
| > Pretty scary thing here for me is that basically all the
| lessons from 1910 to 1950 are being forgotten.
|
| This becomes even more scary when you realize that the
| 1910-1950 happened because people had forgotten all the lessons
| of the 1800. Every generation feels that they are above
| repeating the errors of the past. Yet every generation does.
| wombatmobile wrote:
| What lessons are you saying have been forgotten?
|
| The history of the world between 1800 and 1950 is so vast
| that unless you articulate what lessons you have in mind,
| it's not possible to follow your conversation.
|
| Nevertheless, it is possible to reply to one aspect of your
| commentary, which is your use of the term "scary", or "more
| scary".
|
| Would you say electricity is scary? Exposure to only 110
| volts from the wall can kill even the bravest, strongest
| human. But most people, and virtually all electricians, are
| not "scared" of mains electricity, because they have learned
| a few basics about how it works, and what precautions can be
| taken.
|
| Likewise with automobiles. A collision at 60mph can kill the
| bravest, strongest human. And yet, the freedom to drive at
| that speed and higher across the world's highways is
| responsible for vast amounts of goodness and communities.
|
| Perhaps we can take the political issues you are concerned
| about and find some similar insights, or ways of thinking
| about them that take us to a level higher than just "scary".
| But first, can you say what these issues are?
| enriquto wrote:
| My source of deeply scary and chilling things is German and
| French authors from the interwar period (twenties and early
| thirties). The state of mind at the time was essentially
| optimistic. "After the great war, and the advent of large-
| scale international commerce, another war is simply
| unthinkable." "English and French students go to spend the
| summer in beautiful Germany and vice-versa; everybody has
| actual friends all around Europe." "Modern armies are so
| powerful that nobody in their right mind would ever think
| of them fighting for the currently well-delimited pieces of
| land in western Europe." "Moreover, why would you go to
| kill people in the neighboring country which is full of
| friends of yours?" "We are in 1930, not in 1910 where
| countries were so isolated." "Each country depends
| essentially in products produced by other countries, any
| war would be a net loss for everybody so it won't happen."
| You can read thousands of pages of such drivel, which is
| chillingly similar to what you can read today. More
| chillingly, you will realize that the exact same zeitgeist
| happened at the turn of the century, way before the great
| war.
|
| There's lots of writings on the subject. The most out-
| worldly chilling stuff I've read is still _Ecrits sur l
| 'Allemagne_ by a young french philosopher Simone Weil
| (sister of celebrated mathematician Andre Weil), describing
| her experiences in Germany in 1932-1933. Basically, she
| says that shit has already shit the fan and that it is
| _already_ too late to avoid major conflict in Germany.
| Notice that, at that moment, many German jewish scientists
| like Einstein were _still_ working in Germany. She
| expresses her dismay that modern citizens of Europe are so
| confident in permanent peace that they have forgotten the
| lessons of the previous century. Incidentally, a few years
| later she joined the International Brigades (alongside
| George Orwell) to fight the fascist uprising in Spain.
|
| I agree that, overall, modern life is much better,
| especially thanks to our knowledge in biology and medicine.
| The human victories against smallpox, polio, etc. are major
| things to be proud of. Technology is a double-sided sword,
| but undoubtedly has had a positive influence. But we have
| not yet "grokked" history, and we seem set up to repeat the
| errors of the past, and this is sad.
| skneko wrote:
| I am honestly struggling to understand why this publication is
| even being allowed in a forum about programming, computers,
| technology and such. This is just old politics of a very specific
| country.
| pvaldes wrote:
| Of a specific region from a very specific country in fact. Is
| postwar propaganda.
| elnatro wrote:
| The Spanish Civil war is a contentious topic en Spain today as
| the agreements reached by the politicians in the Democratic
| Transition has been called invalid by the left- leaning parties.
|
| Instead of fighting for better conditions of workers and citizens
| in general, left-leaning parties have been worried about pushing
| propaganda.
|
| Take in account that Franco died more than 45 years ago, and most
| of the governments since them (and the current one) have been
| left-leaning (PSOE mostly).
|
| And now, in Spain, the COVID-19 crisis has shown the inefficiency
| of the government, people are paying more than ever for
| electricity consumption (in a heat wave), the unemployment is the
| highest in the last years, and the price of buying or renting a
| home is high as ever. Thus, the government wants to charge us for
| the use of highways (already paid by taxes), and reduce the pay
| for the retirees.
|
| Ideological propaganda (left-leaning mostly) is very much alive
| in Spain.
| ghostDancer wrote:
| Still there are hundreds of corpses buried in unknown places
| all over Spain and right wing parties don't want them
| unearthed, identified and given to the families, also
| continuous homages to the dictator from the right wing parties
| claiming that dictatorship was a time of order and peace.
| Ikatza wrote:
| > right wing parties don't want them unearthed, identified
| and given to the families
|
| Source for this?
| pvaldes wrote:
| Voting against it repeatedly in congress and senate counts
| as a source?
| elnatro wrote:
| What's stopped the Zapatero administration (2004-2011) or
| current prime minister Sanchez (since 2018) to make
| excavations and recover the remains? Nothing. They keep alive
| this topic because it's convenient to get some more votes and
| polarize the society.
|
| No government (not even Franco regime) has excavated, looking
| for corpses. In fact, while looking for "Republican" bodies,
| some times even have found "Nationalist" corpses [1]
|
| I refuse to be in one faction of a war that occurred 80 years
| ago because some old-fashioned politician says so.
|
| [1] https://elpais.com/ccaa/2014/07/18/valencia/1405708991_42
| 440...
| elnatro wrote:
| Well, I'm focusing in actual important things, like the
| continuous decrease of purchasing power of Spaniards.
|
| The war was more than 80 years ago, the Franco regime ended
| 46 years ago, and there was an amnesty/treaty with all
| political parties to work for the country forward.
|
| Now, about the monuments/homages: There are also monuments
| for the Che Guevara, La pasionaria, Carrillo (remember
| Paracuellos war crimes), etc. would these monuments be banned
| also?
|
| Largo Caballero made some controversial statements another
| opting for Revolution instead of democracy:
|
| > "La clase obrera debe aduenarse del poder politico,
| convencida de que la democracia es incompatible con el
| socialismo, y como el que tiene el poder no ha de entregarlo
| voluntariamente, por eso hay que ir a la Revolucion"
|
| Should we ban all parties that have him as an important
| figure?
|
| No, Franco regime symbols have already been removed, his tomb
| removed, and the democracy has rooted in Spain for almost
| half a century, why don't left-leaning parties solve _actual_
| people problems?
| skneko wrote:
| > and most of the governments since them (and the current one)
| have been left-leaning (PSOE mostly).
|
| False, they have been mostly alternating.
|
| > And now, in Spain, the COVID-19 crisis has shown the
| inefficiency of the government
|
| We are vaccinating way more per day than other EU countries,
| having surpassed in total vaccionations the USA and Germany
| (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations).
|
| > the unemployment is the highest in the last years
|
| False, it's actually lowest than in the previous economical
| crisis (it peaked in 2013) and now there's COVID going on
| (https://www.epdata.es/datos/paro-espana-hoy-epa-
| ine/10/espan...).
|
| > and the price of buying or renting a home is high as ever
|
| Spain is one of the few EU countries where house prices have
| went only slightly up this year, compared to the notable
| increases in others, which are more than double the net
| increase (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
| explained/index.php...).
|
| > Ideological propaganda (left-leaning mostly) is very much
| alive in Spain.
|
| To complain about propaganda, you're sharing a fair bunch
| yourself.
| Ikatza wrote:
| Having countries with more unemployment, worse vaccination
| rates, or higher house prices doesn't make the situation
| "good".
|
| You are cherry picking statistics to say that Spain is better
| than other countries. Being better off than Afghanistan
| doesn't make you a great country.
|
| The thing is that the self-called Spanish left has
| disappointed its voters and blamed every problem on Franco
| and male sexism.
| jsbdk wrote:
| >False, they have been mostly alternating.
|
| PP is left leaning. They haven't had a conservative or
| libertarian ideology in decades, perhaps never. So basically
| most of our democracy has been a parade of left leaning
| governments, especially the last 25 years.
| otikik wrote:
| If PP looks "left leaning" to you, it's pretty clear where
| you stand.
| jsbdk wrote:
| In the... Right? :P
| elnatro wrote:
| If this government that has increased the cost of life
| seems to you to be left-leaning, it's clear where you
| stand.
| elnatro wrote:
| The government downplayed the COVID-19 pandemic and allowed
| marches, concerts and meeting of big groups of people (the
| VOX political party meeting for example). The government also
| seized the healthcare competences of the autonomous
| communities, only to be revealed that they were incompetent,
| and make old people die in assisted living facilities.
|
| There is an all time high unemployment in young people...
|
| You can't take the prices of the last year when many people
| started working from home, and leaving big cities, and hence
| rent has decreased.
|
| Left leaning propaganda is pretty much alive in Spain, where
| you can't criticize the left without being labeled as "facha"
| (as this case).
| skneko wrote:
| > The government also seized the healthcare competences of
| the autonomous communities, only to be revealed that they
| were incompetent, and make old people die in assisted
| living facilities.
|
| Eh, there have been compaints from both left and right that
| the competences left to the autonomous communities have
| done more harm than good. To say they have not had a lot of
| competences is misleading, they do have a lot more decision
| power than in other countries. Spain is _de facto_ very
| decentralized.
|
| > There is an all time high unemployment in young people...
|
| Indeed, but unemployment overall is not the highest in the
| last years. You need to be specific when talking about
| data.
|
| > You can't take the prices of the last year when many
| people started working from home, and leaving big cities,
| and hence rent has decreased.
|
| Yet in most of other EU countries it has went up sharply.
| We're not doing as bad as you think.
|
| > Left leaning propaganda is pretty much alive in Spain,
| where you can't criticize the left without being labeled as
| "facha" (as this case).
|
| Honestly I agree with you here, but still, you can't say
| misleading statements that contradict the data. If we want
| to see real improvement the first step is looking at data
| and being honest about it.
| pvaldes wrote:
| I'm not sure what are they trying to sell exactly but I'm sure
| that this product is long past its expiration date.
| logronoide wrote:
| I can't understand how the Anglo culture still glorifies a
| butchery like the Spanish Civil War. There was no revolution; it
| was only hate and violence between neighbors in the name of
| extreme political ideas.
| n3storm wrote:
| This discourse supporting and whitewashing fascism should not
| be supported. There was a democratic government running
| composed by differente parties, and military and fascists
| prepared and achieved a coup d'etat. Government had to take a
| decission as mandated by their voters in democratic election so
| a war started.
|
| Just saying both parts where opposite extremes is a plain lie
| like saying police at the congress detaining Trump/Qanon fans
| at this winter riot was just a crash between two "extreme
| political ideas".
| ankalagon wrote:
| Well, in this case, it was clear that the choice was between
| Communism and military totalitarist regime/falangism/Fascism:
|
| There was a failed coup by the PSOE and left-leaning
| political groups in 1934:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1934
|
| They failed and the next two years were a sequence of minor
| scale violent events that ended in a war in 1936. Of course,
| the coup by the military forces is not justified, but the
| caotic situation made them choose what they thought was the
| "lesser of two evils".
| logronoide wrote:
| I'm not justifying the coup. Once the war started both
| political extremes believed they had the mission to prevail
| whatever it took. That's why it became a Civil War and the
| end of the Republican Spanish State as the way to keep law
| and order. That's when the butchery began. The Civil War
| atrocities came when the Republican Spanish State collapsed
| and a plethora of "experiments" started to pop up around the
| country driven by local communist, socialist and specially
| anarchist leaders trying to do the revolution on their own.
| The atrocities from the National (rebel) faction started from
| day one of the coup and they were driven by a centralized and
| unified alternative "national state" that prevailed because
| it was better applying law and order, even having very low
| support from the Spaniards. The Anglo journalists and writers
| saw how some of these "experiments" worked. It's not strange
| to see how they enthusiastically supported it at the
| beginning and how they changed their mind of even became
| critic with socialist mindset.
| mejutoco wrote:
| > I'm not justifying the coup
|
| Painting both sides as equal, when one was democratically
| elected, and the other a military coup is extremely
| inaccurate, to the point where it suggests some strong
| biases. My guess is this is why it comes accross as you
| justifying the coup. Edit: quote
| Zardoz84 wrote:
| Spaniard here. There was reactionary right wing military coup
| d'etat that try to take control of the country, and failed. So,
| we had endured a bloody civil war. On the one side, the
| nationalists, there was mix of right wing factions... Carlists,
| monarchic, right wing republicans, falangists (Spanish version
| of nazis). On the other side, there was a mix of force loyal to
| the republic and far left wing factions... socialists,
| communist and anarchists.
|
| Both sides, did some awful and unmoral things, but the
| nationalists did a lot more awful things. Like bombing fleeing
| refugees. Also, the nationalists ended consolidating around the
| falangists and pro-nazis ideologies, and getting military help
| from fascists Italy and Nazis. When we ended the civil war, we
| had to endure a fascist regime to the end of 70's. And we
| endure yet some sequels of this.
|
| So, please, don't reduce the civil war as "hate and violence
| between neighbors in the name of extreme political ideas". It's
| was an bloody military uprising against the legit government
| that the people elected, that ended with fascists on power.
| ankalagon wrote:
| I wouldn't be so fast in claiming that the "Nationalist"
| faction was worse:
|
| - Bombing of Cabra:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Cabra
|
| - Sinking of SS Castillo de Olite
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Castillo_de_Olite
|
| - Paracuellos Massacress:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracuellos_massacres
|
| Edit: However, fighting because of what faction was worse in
| a conflict that ended more than 80 years ago is nonsense.
| This comment was made only to remind all that both factions
| made war crimes.
|
| Franco supporters' oppression aginst the losers side
| ("Republicans" and Communists) was worse after the war, from
| what I know.
| otikik wrote:
| One of the factions can be worse without the other being
| perfect.
|
| All my grandparents were pro-Franco (some more openly than
| others). I have done my own research and I have concluded
| that no, they were the baddies. Of course the other side
| were not all angels. They never are.
|
| > ended more than 80 years ago
|
| The problem is that that conflict from 80 years ago had
| ramifications that continue to exist today, even present in
| our Constitution.
| ankalagon wrote:
| I don't know, but for anarchists and for POUM [1], Franco
| could be part of "the baddies" (things are never so
| simple like good and bad), but "Republican" (with support
| for the URSS) members were the ones that killed them.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Days
| logronoide wrote:
| The simple idea of "the political faction I don't like did
| more unmoral things" completely disqualifies your argument.
| In the case of Barcelona and Levante the lack of a strong
| Spanish State during the war and the prevalence of anarchists
| had as a result a lot of "experiments" around governance.
| These "experiments" lasted from a few months to years, and
| ranged from forbidding private property to killing the land
| owners and businessmen. It was not the land of freedom and
| peace described by some Anglo journalist and writers. It was
| a hell on earth because it was a Civil War.
| [deleted]
| enriquto wrote:
| > it was only hate and violence between neighbors
|
| You mean, that the German an Italian neighbors helped support a
| failed fascist coup in neighboring Spain while the rest of the
| world watched? At least some brave men like Orwell had the
| presence of mind to be on the right side.
|
| If this is not what you mind by "neighbors", I find your
| interpretation of the events extremely offensive. Like saying
| that jews and nazis were "neighbors" that sadly hated each
| other.
| logronoide wrote:
| SPANIARDS. I mean Spaniards killing each other. I don't care
| who supported what. It was brothers killing brothers. And a
| kind reminder of how terribly wrong you are about bravery at
| war: it does not distinguish armies or colors, it's an
| individual attribute of the soldier. It's never an attribute
| of the army or a faction. Talk to any professional military
| if you have any doubt.
| enriquto wrote:
| > I mean Spaniards killing each other.
|
| This is not really what happened. My city was bombed
| continuously during three years by the Italian navy and air
| force. No "spaniards" bombed my city. My grandmother was 10
| and she was wounded and half her schoolmates killed by an
| Italian bomb. Through her life she had a huge scar on half
| her body and many pieces of shrapnel deep inside her. She
| considered all humans her brothers, as well, not only the
| ones that had the same passport as her. Yes, including the
| italian guy who killed her friends.
| ankalagon wrote:
| My grandmother was almost raped and killed by Italian
| comunist/partisans in the Spanish Civil war.
|
| Both sides reached out for allies and got resources, men
| and machineary from them. National military front got in
| bed with Nacional-Socialsm and Fascism, and Republican
| with URSS.
| ankalagon wrote:
| There was a failed coup by the PSOE and left-leaning
| political groups in 1934:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1934
|
| The Second Spanish Republic was a failed try to make a modern
| country whithoug having some kind of agreement between
| different political parties. All political parties were
| extremely polarized, the first coup failed (1934), and the
| second one (1936) succeeded.
|
| The civil war started 40 years of iron-fist totalitarian
| right-leaning regime (allied to USA). Fortunately it's been
| 50 years since that ended, although some politicians (soem in
| PSOE and almost all in Podemos) like to bring the topic up
| again, and again, and again... Only for divisive reasons and
| electoral motives.
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(page generated 2021-07-11 23:02 UTC)